Author Topic: digital electricity  (Read 21830 times)

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Offline Euler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2018, 02:03:24 am »
The best way I think of it...  harmonics are generated by ac/dc conversion as you "grab" power from the top and bottom of the sinus, more inverters mo harmonics.... they are bad for many reasons namely creating heat in wires this happens because current moves to the outer radius of a wire in some proportion to the amount and types of harmonic distortion (THD) thus increasing resistance of that wire mo resistance mo heat, for 120 years the status quo is removing heat with filters (ie transformers) that are wound with wire... I guess that seems to be be part of the equation?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2018, 02:14:21 am »
I'm afraid my  :bullshit: is totally  :-BROKE
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2018, 04:10:59 am »
The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.
If the power network impedance matches the load impedance then these will each dissipate 50% of the total power.  Not a recipe for energy saving. You want the supply impedance to be as low as possible.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2018, 04:43:48 am »
Most machines run on DC internally and self regulate. Noisy power will not cause "poor data transfer between servers" and crap, there's no way good equipment is susceptable to that unless it's like the ghettos of India where it's spaghetti power lines. The only thing it would directly effect maybe is AC motors, but there are VFDs now that eliminate those problems by creating a localized AC source.

Plus, big factories use passive PF correction with coils and condensors/capacitors (some people still call big caps condensors), without the need for some silly little computer that pisses away 120W. ::)

EDIT: Active PF correction is also already a major thing. You've just invented a hilariously snake oily form of automatic PF corrector.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 04:50:19 am by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2018, 09:18:16 am »
Most machines run on DC internally and self regulate. Noisy power will not cause "poor data transfer between servers" and crap, there's no way good equipment is susceptable to that unless it's like the ghettos of India where it's spaghetti power lines. The only thing it would directly effect maybe is AC motors, but there are VFDs now that eliminate those problems by creating a localized AC source.

Plus, big factories use passive PF correction with coils and condensors/capacitors (some people still call big caps condensors), without the need for some silly little computer that pisses away 120W. ::)

EDIT: Active PF correction is also already a major thing. You've just invented a hilariously snake oily form of automatic PF corrector.

The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.
If the power network impedance matches the load impedance then these will each dissipate 50% of the total power.  Not a recipe for energy saving. You want the supply impedance to be as low as possible.

Well I guess you guys have it all figured out then, don't ya? To think, we would have gotten away with it too if not for you meddling group of internet engineers on a troll forum. 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2018, 09:29:24 am »
Seriously?

You walk into a forum frequented by Electrical Engineers and like-minded people with some engineering ideas in the electrical spectrum and don't like the fact that everybody doesn't roll over and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.  Then you accuse us of trolling?

The simple fact of the matter is that what you are promoting has some serious snake oil aspects about it - and we aren't about to let that slide.  Most of us have a much better understanding of the subject than the general public and there are many here who have industry experience that can critically assess your claims - with more than enough expertise to do so.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:35:32 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2018, 09:34:08 am »
Seriously?

You walk into a forum frequented by Electrical Engineers and like-minded people with some engineering ideas in the electrical spectrum and don't like the fact that everybody doesn't roll over and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.  Then you accuse us of trolling?

The simple fact of the matter is that what you are promoting has some serious snake oil aspects about it - and we aren't about to let that slide.  Most of us have a much better understanding of the subject than the general public and there are many here who have industry experience that can critically assess your claims - with more than enough expertise to do so.

Yes, this intellectual prowess has been exhibited on full display. Congrats.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2018, 09:35:45 am »
If your product is seriously capable of what you are claiming, then harden up, deal with the cynicism and answer your critics.

If you don't, then you are either a wuss and/or a charlatan.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2018, 09:41:41 am »
If your product is seriously capable of what you are claiming, then harden up, deal with the cynicism and answer your critics.

If you don't, then you are either a wuss and/or a charlatan.

I appreciate the pep talk. Put me back in coach!

Did you want me to answer the doc brown comment, or the one about square sin waves?
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2018, 10:04:51 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.

We also pay just for the effective power, but some industrial customers have to pay for apparent power to motivate them to keep the reactive power low.

In case you haven't noticed, the post starting this thread is the OP's very first post. And just after the first reply there's someone seemingly from 3DFS. What a coincidence! >:D

 
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2018, 03:45:30 pm »
A friend (a journalist) just sent me the Vox piece to comment on and honestly, I was flabbergasted. How did the Vox folks (who are serious journalists) get so taken in? The piece is practically breathless.

I mean, there might even be something there, but if there is, you definitely cannot figure out what it would be from the description.

I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers. If you have a power quality problem, then, maybe some filter is appropriate. (And I define problem as power quality bad enough to drive reliability problems, not just some noise on the AC). I don't even see how power quality can drive efficiency? Are they talking about losses from current spikes from noise? WTF? Show me some data that implies that can be anything other than de minimis.

So weird.
 

Offline transmatrix

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2018, 04:04:22 pm »
I found this forum via the Vox article (Really wish that Vox had comments...)

I'm an Electrical Engineer in the field of Power Quality. This is just your standard "black box" energy savings device. It's snake oil. Really surprised that Vox got suckered into this one. Hey Vox, if a EE professor hangs up on you, it's because you're insulting his intelligence...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2018, 04:11:11 pm »
A friend (a journalist) just sent me the Vox piece to comment on and honestly, I was flabbergasted.

If you need anymore flabbergasting, have a quick look at any of the YT vids in reply#9.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1591180/#msg1591180
 :bullshit:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2018, 04:19:08 pm »
Well as the old saying goes, "people want to believe", and "there's a sucker born every minute."

Products like this get created by two types of people, one type is the investment scammer, who knows their product can't do what is claimed but they will ride the wave for as long as they can. The other is the ignorant person who genuinely believes their device works, usually due to improper measurement techniques like using an averaging DMM to measure something that is not a mains frequency sine wave, or making flawed assumptions.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2018, 04:21:53 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2018, 05:23:00 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.

Yeah, you guys are using one of them right now.  :-DD 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2018, 06:27:51 pm »
I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers.

Servers and network elements got active PFC and the only source of reactive power could be the AC. The real problem are factories with tons of large electric motors.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2018, 06:59:04 pm »
I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers.

Servers and network elements got active PFC and the only source of reactive power could be the AC. The real problem are factories with tons of large electric motors.

Agreed. But factories that consume lots of VARs are a known thing, and people have been dealing with it for a long time. How old is the synchronous condenser? More modern solutions are STATCOM or SVC. (synchronous VAR compensator)

And, as your say, PSUs in modern servers are quite well behaved regarding power factor. It /might/ be more efficient or cheaper overall to use PSUs without PFC and instead have some kind of site-level PFC, but I don't think I've heard of anyone doing that. Could make sense in very large facilities with all the same custom servers, like a Facebook or Google.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2018, 06:59:12 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.

Yeah, you guys are using one of them right now.  :-DD


My suggestion was in your favor. Why the shitty reply?  :-//
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Offline jmelson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2018, 08:00:04 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.
HAH!  You couldn't build ANYTHING from that patent application.  It was incredibly vague.  Also, the claims, as far as I could see, NEVER mentioned anything about energy saving.  It is a UPS with harmonic filtering/power factor correction.

Jon
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2018, 08:07:06 pm »
HAH!  You couldn't build ANYTHING from that patent application.  It was incredibly vague.  Also, the claims, as far as I could see, NEVER mentioned anything about energy saving.  It is a UPS with harmonic filtering/power factor correction.

Jon

Agreed. Let's take a few bog-standard pieces of equipment and put them in one box and call it an invention. Not utterly useless, but, please.
 

Online dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2018, 09:21:17 pm »
I have actually had a few situations where I would have killed for a reasonably compact, efficient box that could inject current to cancel the current harmonics (but it would have to manage to cancel hundreds of A to be useful)....

The classic case being a rig full of old school Martin lighting with the early switching ballasts, 700W (and about 1400VA) each with massive triplen harmonics, nightmare for both overheating neutral bars and cooking delta-star transformer windings. Phase angle dimming can cause much the same issue and you can have the three phase neutral current actually EXCEED the current in any one phase by nearly a factor of two.

Unfortunately this is not that box, and selling to users who don't pay for VAR anyway?

Regards, Dan.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2018, 09:27:15 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2018, 09:42:27 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+

It's the strangest elinkedin I've ever see anyone write.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:46:19 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2018, 09:45:15 pm »
As we can see, these things do absolutely nothing to the supply, just waste 100W.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 


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