Author Topic: digital electricity  (Read 21162 times)

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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2018, 09:49:30 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+

So, I'm on the fence on this and I'm trying to figure this out.

Some people are dismissing your device outright as snake oil.
Some are saying, "yeah, nothing new here."
Some are saying, "yeah, anyone could throw these components together and do this."

But...since it is patented...what exactly is the inventive, non-obvious aspect of it? There must be at least one and maybe that's what isn't clear to others about your device. I know how much it costs to file a patent via the PCT process and to maintain it so it isn't something you do lightly. Your priority date is 2011 so I know you must have paid the maintenance fees or let the patent expire. Did your application get granted in non-US terrorities?

You have entered a lions' den seemingly to initially promote and now defend your product. The onus really is on you to explain the novelty of your invention and demonstrate that it is being used successfully in the real world, e.g, by testimonials.

I think this forum will age very well together with the very poor impression your product has because you haven't offered convincing information. Anyone curious about your product would almost certainly do a Google search and this thread will definitely come up near the top of the list of hits.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:52:25 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2018, 10:43:46 pm »
One thing mentioned at minute 6:08 in the first video that touted how great the invention was is that you will no longer need that external power supply for your laptop or other devices. When the company founder plugs his laptop directly into the line I might take notice.

I also need to know how one of these great inventions at the breaker box can optimize the power to many differing reactive loads that are connected to all the branch circuits in a house. Maybe they should make mini versions of the invention to be used at each outlet. Oh wait, the reason I have so many different supplies/chargers is that every device I own has a different voltage/power requirement.
 
A final thing: if the device saves so much energy and makes everything run so efficiently, why the two fans? Maybe they need to put another of these inventions before the first invention to increase its efficiency. Just a thought.

I believe this is a video describing their first model. 

 
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2018, 10:52:51 pm »
Oh, that's FUNNY.

I love how it gets more and more ridiculous as it progresses. And serious props to the presenter - he certainly had a mouthful of gibberish to deliver and, boy, did he.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline extralifedisco

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2018, 11:48:58 pm »
Fascinated by this company and their weird PR approach. In principle, this is probably something that would benefit certain industrial applications like datacenters. If you have a bunch of rack servers on the same circuit as noisy AC loads like air conditioners, you'll have a bunch of line noise and phase issues that have to get dealt with somewhere, and the PC power supplies are dealing with most of it. I don't know all that much about server power supply design but presumably that filtering results in a heat loss in some switchmode supply somewhere, and shortens component lives, etc.

What the company is claiming is threefold:
 - one, that those losses can be recognized/analyzed in real-time via the supply side of power line
 - two, that they can compensate for them in-real time with their device's inductive loading
 - three, those savings are significant enough to warrant a $700,000 installation

Those first two claims are impressive, but I guess they're plausible. Everyone knows power noise is a thing, but the company is claiming their fancy measurements reveal it's more of a problem than previously known. Maybe they're right! But if it can optimize a wall of servers to the tune of 120W savings to justify their always-on supercomputer and it's hefty price tag, I'd be, uh, very surprised.

Then there's the stuff in their videos and marketing wank. "Server temperature dropped by twenty degrees" (fahrenheit?) "Double the lifespan of your laptop battery." "100% accurate prediction of component failure." Come on.

The charitable assumption is that some excitable marketing people and their media friends have gotten their hands on this interesting niche industrial project and are attempting to raise funding by spinning it out to ridiculous extremes "'The use cases are endless,' Heuberger marveled to me. 'They’re freaking endless. It’s amazing.'" I'm sure we've all worked somewhere where it felt like marketing was actively working against engineering, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure it does something, but if it really works as well as is claimed, why all the snake oil claims? You don't need to market this to individual consumers, you need to sell it to datacenter engineers!
 

Online james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2018, 12:05:43 am »
I want to see measured results under controlled conditions. Right now I fail to see the advantage over existing systems that have active PFC incorporated into the power supplies. Large industrial customers with motors are easily remedied through the use of passive PFC capacitors and even that is less of an issue these days with VFDs becoming common. There is simply not much waste to reduce, it's not as if the wiring in buildings gets particularly warm, and if the waste is not dissipated in the wires then where is it going? For this device to result in any savings, it has to result in less total heat released inside the structure. Power consumption and heat are both things that are easily measured, we can easily account for essentially all of the energy that goes into a building.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2018, 01:53:58 am »
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 03:31:25 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2018, 11:02:13 am »
If you search for "reactive power compensation" you'll find interesting stuff like:
- https://www.fingrid.fi/globalassets/dokumentit/en/customers/grid-connection/supply-of-reactive-power-and-maintenance-of-reactive-power-reserves_2017.pdf
- https://new.abb.com/docs/librariesprovider78/chile-documentos/jornadas-tecnicas-2013---presentaciones/4-jos%C3%A9-matias---reactive-power-compensation.pdf?sfvrsn=2
- http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.193.6385&rep=rep1&type=pdf

How would a 3DFS product save money when the substations already use shunt capacitors to compensate reactive power?
2 things. Using capacitors in this manner is inefficient and wastes TONS of energy.

Second, shunt systems are only injecting. There are two sides to the correction equation

3DFS is installed in parallel and injects as well as extracts (dis/charge) the internal inductive or capacitive system. Also at the microsecond level.

It is an evolution from a shunt system. Reactive power needs to be corrected at the same time as harmonics, phase balance, etc.

This is why the Real-Time computing. Without it, there can only be guessing.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:05:56 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2018, 11:36:38 am »
Doesn't the charging/discharging of the inductive or capacitive system at the microsecond level cause losses (in form of heat) too? The typical residential building connection over here is 3-phase 35 or 63A.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2018, 11:40:49 am »
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that this device doesn't work, producing cleaner AC power. What is not so believable is claims that somewhat cleaner power makes electrical devices fed by this cleaner power amazingly more efficient.
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2018, 11:52:52 am »
 I suspect that 3DFS have designed themselves into a dying niche market.  As national and regional energy efficiency standards become more and more stringent, the cost to build in high efficiency PFC in a PSU is falling in relative terms due to the increased market for it.

They now need to re-target their product to attempt to get a return on the investment so-far.   IMHO their best option would be to ditch the bulls--t efficiency claims and market it with a significant markup to audiophools who will pay through the nose for cleaner power even if it doesn't make a perceptible difference.  8)
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2018, 12:31:27 pm »
Digital electricity is a flow of ones and zeroes instead of electrons?
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2018, 03:23:39 pm »
Digital electricity is a flow of ones and zeroes instead of electrons?

It's electricity with fingers.
 

Offline nmart

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2018, 03:28:18 pm »
Chris D., sounds like you've built an active harmonics filter. The tech sounds decent for power quality but too many people confuse this product with power factor correction to understand how well this may work for its intended purpose. I'm not in marketing (I'm an EE at an electrical utility) but from reading the Vox article I'm guessing it's difficult to target non-technical people and still maintain scientific accuracy.

Here's a marketing strategy that would help me and might appeal to other audiences. The start of your sales pitch could define the current state of harmonic filtering devices. Then display some charts (ideally produced by an independent lab) with the reduction in harmonic distortion performed by your device compared to competitors' harmonic filtering devices (or the absence of them) that include heat comparisons (a direct relation to efficiency that most people can understand). When I'm looking to buy a truck I want to see the horsepower/torque curves. :) If the device does help with power factor or phase balancing, be clear about how those additional benefits are different than power quality (more explaining that science and current technology is required) and how well they perform compared to existing devices. And just try and delete the Vox article if possible.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2018, 06:18:10 pm »
 :horse: :popcorn:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2018, 06:32:31 pm »
This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:

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Online james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2018, 06:48:39 pm »
How many people care about harmonics? If there was a significant amount of power wasted then wires and equipment would be running hot. While I try to maintain a power factor reasonably close to unity to avoid wasting circuit capacity, I don't really care about harmonics. Neither the power factor nor the harmonics affect my utility bill in any measurable way.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2018, 07:02:23 pm »
This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:


The comparison in your graphic isn't a fair one. The Accusine PFV+ 60A is for 380-480V.  You are comparing it to your VectorQ2 which is not. How about comparing dimensions with your VectorQ5? What would the installation time for that be on a 380-480V system? A bit more than 20 minutes, I'm sure.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2018, 07:48:08 pm »


This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:


The comparison in your graphic isn't a fair one. The Accusine PFV+ 60A is for 380-480V.  You are comparing it to your VectorQ2 which is not. How about comparing dimensions with your VectorQ5? What would the installation time for that be on a 380-480V system? A bit more than 20 minutes, I'm sure.

Nope, only 15% bigger. Same 20 minutes to install. Flip of a fuse commissioning.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 07:55:23 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2018, 07:56:27 pm »
The technical specification for the VectorQ series states "Full +/- 90 deg of phase angle correction" and "Unlimited power rating in all phases". I think the unlimited power rating needs some explanation, because no VectorQ model is able to handle an unlimited VAR.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2018, 08:02:13 pm »
The technical specification for the VectorQ series states "Full +/- 90 deg of phase angle correction" and "Unlimited power rating in all phases". I think the unlimited power rating needs some explanation, because no VectorQ model is able to handle an unlimited VAR.

When it is in parallel it is.

The techs limiting parameter is kVAR.

If it exceeds the kVAR limit, the device still works, but is only able to "clean" up to a point, so the excessive reactive power will begin to affect the network. It will not be as deleterious as it is without correction though and the tech will alert the user to this limit as it approaches and passes it.

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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2018, 08:12:44 pm »
I see, but I'd recommend to specify the maximum VAR rating for each model since an "unlimited power rating" is quite misleading.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2018, 08:26:26 pm »
I see, but I'd recommend to specify the maximum VAR rating for each model since an "unlimited power rating" is quite misleading.

I guess so, but it is technically accurate. If we put N/A, people would also lose their shit.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2018, 10:05:22 pm »
It's all going well, although I won't be getting one. :)
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2018, 11:24:51 pm »
Cut the strident hype marketing, publish a proper spec sheet (How much current can the thing inject or absorb to control PF and harmonics and what are the losses) and you might actually have a product that is useful in some applications, but no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.

As I say, a box that can kill the triplen on a 400V three phase supply to reduce the pile up in the neural by 300A or so that was cheaper, lighter and easier to move then a 300kVA K rated delta-star transformer, yea, I could maybe see a use for that, but I need numbers dammit, and I need to know where the warts are.

Stuff written by the marketing/investor relations fluffer is an active turn off when there are other players with similar kit doing similar things who don't feel the need for the services of a fluffer to make their kit look impressive.

73 Dan.
 
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