Author Topic: digital electricity  (Read 23792 times)

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Offline thefinisher

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digital electricity
« on: June 06, 2018, 06:23:25 am »
Is  digital electricity a thing now ?  I saw this video on a company named  3DFS (https://3dfs.com/)  that  claims they can save you 70%  power on the electric  grid  is this  true. This  product claims to analysis the input power and  in real time clean up all the harmonics and distortions and  create a perfect  sin wave out put.  it seems to me  it  really claiming to be a power factor correction device but  savings look  over blown.  another video
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 07:01:01 am »
You don't even need to watch the video to know that a claim of 70% savings is pure platinum plated bulls--t and any device that claims to provide it is pure snake oil.

Start with the Laws of Thermodynamics which tell you that energy cant be created from nothing, and that all lost energy must eventually end up as waste heat.

Therefore that claimed 70% saving must mean that on average, your electrical appliances have an efficiency below 30%.   However most modern PSUs have efficiency over 80%, and air heating appliances  can have efficiencies up to 100% - as the 'waste' heat is the desired result, so unless you have a house full of valve amps or similar there isn't enough lost energy 'on the table' to get anywhere near a 70% saving. 

Then there's the results of waveform distortion on efficiency.  The most common waveform distortion - 'flat topping' caused by SMPSUs without power factor correction (PFC) drawing all their current at the peaks of the mains waveform actually increases the efficiency of other SMPSUs as it widens the effective peak so decreases I2R losses in the wiring, input filter and bridge rectifier feeding the input side DC bus, and in the PFC circuit if present.  Therefore claims of general efficiency savings by improving power quality have a fishy smell to start with - like last weeks fish guts left out in the sun!

When all's said and done if you could magically clean up the mains waveform without loosing any energy, I'd be *extremely* surprised to see even a 1% improvement in efficiency, and if the device actually does anything, it will be subject to the same constraints on losses as any other electrical or electronic device, so its likely that its losses will be a few percent of the load on it, wiping out any potential saving immediately.

Its true that way back in the day,many industrial and large commercial power users could make large savings by installing power factor correction capacitors, as traditionally commercial and industrial loads were typically largely inductive (think big motors and choke ballasted fluorescent lighting), and the tarrifs they were on often penalised power factors that were too low (excessive VAR) but nowadays there are very few inductive domestic loads that run for longer than a few minutes, and to meet national energy efficiency targets, most inductive loads will already have power factor correction components internally fitted.  Also domestic metering only measures real power, it doesn't measure VAR, so as you aren't on a tarrif + metering that penalises peak VAR the only saving to the user is reduced I2R losses in the wiring between the power factor correction device and the meter.  All I2R losses upstream of the meter come out of the power company's operating overheads so savings in the distribution network wont save the end users a single cent (though they'll probably make shareholders happy).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:06:06 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Offline niladherbert

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 02:45:50 pm »
The company is really selling a nice way of cleaning up your power into a perfect sine wave, while claiming all sorts of things about it, but it would give marginal gains in efficiency (like the capacitor in a box teardown). The cub on the video needs an education on AC and DC, P=IV and V=IR. He also needs told that only as much current as the device needs to consume is drawn. He really hasn't done his research on how the grid is controlled though.
Just read that article. Here's a real gold nugget: “Smart meters are a few hundred bucks because they do not have processors inside them". I don't see how they can help on reasonably well built DC power regulation within normal electronics like they're talking about at the end though. And they're 'Not in it for the money as much as the improvements to society'
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 03:39:20 pm »
Look at the size of the two fans on that thing. They'd barely fit in the microwave. Must generate a lot of heat trying to stop your appliances generating heat.  :-// :palm: :scared: :bullshit:
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 04:12:32 pm »
This device consumes a maximum of 120Watts of power all time. Those fans only turn on when the device must prevent a lightning surge from entering the panel.

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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 04:51:39 pm »
This device consumes a maximum of 120Watts of power all time. Those fans only turn on when the device must prevent a lightning surge from entering the panel.

Aren't lightning surges very short (<0.5ms)? How can the fans possible come on that fast and do anything to help?

Do you have a full technical specification sheet? Your website is very vague about power draw etc.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 05:17:29 pm »
They are very short, but the heating is delayed and the power is absorbed.  The fans turn on at the sensing of the surge and continue until the ambient temperature returns. The inductive system is also water cooled and oil cooled, which further assists in rapid cooling. Spec sheet attached.

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Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 06:34:06 pm »
 :popcorn:
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 08:31:08 pm »
There's plenty of more 'info' out there, if anyone needs a laugh.

www.you  tube.com/watch?v=2m5nJ1gkOHI
www.you  tube.com/watch?v=8x4r8-OoFG4
www.you  tube.com/watch?v=omkc6MkS17U
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 08:32:56 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 10:06:09 pm »
As Clara Clayton said to Doc Emmet Brown, “I’ve heard some whoppers I’m my time...”
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 11:01:57 pm »
Here I am to engage you in a dialogue about this technology and this is what I get. I thought there were "experts" on this forum. I thought there were knowledgeable people who could contribute to the conversation and might even learn a thing or two.

Instead, this...

Good job guys!
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 11:23:22 pm »
So, if I understand it, your device monitors the phase difference between the voltage and the current at any given moment and this can change either due to the grid or an appliance (esp. high power) causing it.

How can your device introduce a phase difference between what's coming in to the panel and what's going to the appliances etc at high load (30A say) with such small wires? Otherwise won't the phase difference in the building simply be the same as what's coming in?

To change the phase requires energy. Using P = VI cos(phase) and let's say the undesirable phase is -10deg then the power will change from VI cos(-10deg) to VI cos(0) which is about VI x 0.02. 30A equates to 115V x 30A = 3.45kW. 0.02 of that is 69W. So, assuming 100% efficiency, somewhere you have to find 69W of energy or dissipate it (can't think that through right now) but you spec says that the idle power consumption is 90W or so and the max is 120W. That's only 30W difference and I'm sure it isn't 100% efficient. So how are you changing the phase?


And a phase shift of 10deg (the range of your device) only creates a loss of 2% power which wouldn't be that significant in a house as far as the bill is concerned. How quickly would someone break even with the cost of the device and the utility bill saving?

I'm missing something.


Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 11:24:46 pm »
I thought everyone knew that we're all moving over to the new Natively Digital Format square wave electricity now, it's much more convenient, efficient and safer than the now old fashioned analogue sine wave AC.

www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works
www.voltserver.com
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 11:58:50 pm »
It sounds like you are inquiring about the power electronics. How do we perform the correction?

The technology has an inductive system and a capacitive system in the box. We call it a Flash Energy Storage System or FESS for simplicity of reference where energy is only temporarily stored (no longer than a microsecond).

Each microsecond, there is a correction made to the by either charging or discharging our FESS depending on the inductive or capacitive need of the power network in the moment. This correction is always precise and accurate, based on the Real-Time computing analysis that occurs in between each correction.

The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads. This is the live nature of our technology. It does not matter how the loads are consuming electricity, the supply is adjusted to meet the demand.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.

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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2018, 12:11:49 am »
So every device is optimized independently?
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline thefinisher

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2018, 12:14:02 am »
That what was my thinking that it was doing some form of power fact correction at best but using a form of intelligent microcontroller to regulate and adjust the phase difference between the voltage and the current. I did not think any microcontroller would be fast enough to do this in real time to make this phase changes and harmonic adjustment in real time.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2018, 12:15:31 am »
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2018, 12:18:27 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.
 

Offline Euler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2018, 12:19:50 am »
I thought everyone knew that we're all moving over to the new Natively Digital Format square wave electricity now, it's much more convenient, efficient and safer than the now old fashioned analogue sine wave AC.

www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works
www.voltserver.com

Seriously StillTryin, Do really you not know the difference between AC and DC ???  You clearly have not been burdened by an overabundance of education.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:21:25 am by Euler »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 12:55:39 am »
So every device is optimized independently?

It is a different perspective. The electricity is optimized to deliver perfect power to the loads.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:04:34 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 12:57:00 am »
That what was my thinking that it was doing some form of power fact correction at best but using a form of intelligent microcontroller to regulate and adjust the phase difference between the voltage and the current. I did not think any microcontroller would be fast enough to do this in real time to make this phase changes and harmonic adjustment in real time.

Yeah, this is difficult. The core innovation behind this is Real-Time computing. This device has the ability to process terabytes of data every minute at the expense of 120W of power. This is the huge achievement that allows for this to occur in Real-Time.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:04:57 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2018, 01:02:16 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.

This is partially true. Power factor penalties are not directly charged to residential consumers in most markets, but they are a significant charge for commercial and industrial customers.

From an energy efficiency standpoint it is not just power factor, it is harmonics and the imbalance between the phases that cause additional waste, and they all induce further waste among each other. This multiplication effect of losses wastes energy and results in poor power to every single load in the power network all the time.

This underperformance of devices is directly linked to waste in manufacturing and production and is linked to poor data transfer between servers and under performance in UPS, etc.

Synchronized electricity is energy efficiency and process improvement all at once. This has enormous effects on some industries like semi-conductor fabs or pharmaceutical research, etc.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:05:14 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Offline thefinisher

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2018, 01:40:22 am »
I have some  questions about the technology how does it harmonic cause energy lost what is the mathematics behind this
 
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Offline Euler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2018, 02:03:24 am »
The best way I think of it...  harmonics are generated by ac/dc conversion as you "grab" power from the top and bottom of the sinus, more inverters mo harmonics.... they are bad for many reasons namely creating heat in wires this happens because current moves to the outer radius of a wire in some proportion to the amount and types of harmonic distortion (THD) thus increasing resistance of that wire mo resistance mo heat, for 120 years the status quo is removing heat with filters (ie transformers) that are wound with wire... I guess that seems to be be part of the equation?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2018, 02:14:21 am »
I'm afraid my  :bullshit: is totally  :-BROKE
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2018, 04:10:59 am »
The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.
If the power network impedance matches the load impedance then these will each dissipate 50% of the total power.  Not a recipe for energy saving. You want the supply impedance to be as low as possible.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2018, 04:43:48 am »
Most machines run on DC internally and self regulate. Noisy power will not cause "poor data transfer between servers" and crap, there's no way good equipment is susceptable to that unless it's like the ghettos of India where it's spaghetti power lines. The only thing it would directly effect maybe is AC motors, but there are VFDs now that eliminate those problems by creating a localized AC source.

Plus, big factories use passive PF correction with coils and condensors/capacitors (some people still call big caps condensors), without the need for some silly little computer that pisses away 120W. ::)

EDIT: Active PF correction is also already a major thing. You've just invented a hilariously snake oily form of automatic PF corrector.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 04:50:19 am by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2018, 09:18:16 am »
Most machines run on DC internally and self regulate. Noisy power will not cause "poor data transfer between servers" and crap, there's no way good equipment is susceptable to that unless it's like the ghettos of India where it's spaghetti power lines. The only thing it would directly effect maybe is AC motors, but there are VFDs now that eliminate those problems by creating a localized AC source.

Plus, big factories use passive PF correction with coils and condensors/capacitors (some people still call big caps condensors), without the need for some silly little computer that pisses away 120W. ::)

EDIT: Active PF correction is also already a major thing. You've just invented a hilariously snake oily form of automatic PF corrector.

The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.
If the power network impedance matches the load impedance then these will each dissipate 50% of the total power.  Not a recipe for energy saving. You want the supply impedance to be as low as possible.

Well I guess you guys have it all figured out then, don't ya? To think, we would have gotten away with it too if not for you meddling group of internet engineers on a troll forum. 
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2018, 09:29:24 am »
Seriously?

You walk into a forum frequented by Electrical Engineers and like-minded people with some engineering ideas in the electrical spectrum and don't like the fact that everybody doesn't roll over and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.  Then you accuse us of trolling?

The simple fact of the matter is that what you are promoting has some serious snake oil aspects about it - and we aren't about to let that slide.  Most of us have a much better understanding of the subject than the general public and there are many here who have industry experience that can critically assess your claims - with more than enough expertise to do so.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:35:32 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2018, 09:34:08 am »
Seriously?

You walk into a forum frequented by Electrical Engineers and like-minded people with some engineering ideas in the electrical spectrum and don't like the fact that everybody doesn't roll over and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.  Then you accuse us of trolling?

The simple fact of the matter is that what you are promoting has some serious snake oil aspects about it - and we aren't about to let that slide.  Most of us have a much better understanding of the subject than the general public and there are many here who have industry experience that can critically assess your claims - with more than enough expertise to do so.

Yes, this intellectual prowess has been exhibited on full display. Congrats.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2018, 09:35:45 am »
If your product is seriously capable of what you are claiming, then harden up, deal with the cynicism and answer your critics.

If you don't, then you are either a wuss and/or a charlatan.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2018, 09:41:41 am »
If your product is seriously capable of what you are claiming, then harden up, deal with the cynicism and answer your critics.

If you don't, then you are either a wuss and/or a charlatan.

I appreciate the pep talk. Put me back in coach!

Did you want me to answer the doc brown comment, or the one about square sin waves?
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2018, 10:04:51 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.

We also pay just for the effective power, but some industrial customers have to pay for apparent power to motivate them to keep the reactive power low.

In case you haven't noticed, the post starting this thread is the OP's very first post. And just after the first reply there's someone seemingly from 3DFS. What a coincidence! >:D

 
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2018, 03:45:30 pm »
A friend (a journalist) just sent me the Vox piece to comment on and honestly, I was flabbergasted. How did the Vox folks (who are serious journalists) get so taken in? The piece is practically breathless.

I mean, there might even be something there, but if there is, you definitely cannot figure out what it would be from the description.

I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers. If you have a power quality problem, then, maybe some filter is appropriate. (And I define problem as power quality bad enough to drive reliability problems, not just some noise on the AC). I don't even see how power quality can drive efficiency? Are they talking about losses from current spikes from noise? WTF? Show me some data that implies that can be anything other than de minimis.

So weird.
 

Offline transmatrix

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2018, 04:04:22 pm »
I found this forum via the Vox article (Really wish that Vox had comments...)

I'm an Electrical Engineer in the field of Power Quality. This is just your standard "black box" energy savings device. It's snake oil. Really surprised that Vox got suckered into this one. Hey Vox, if a EE professor hangs up on you, it's because you're insulting his intelligence...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2018, 04:11:11 pm »
A friend (a journalist) just sent me the Vox piece to comment on and honestly, I was flabbergasted.

If you need anymore flabbergasting, have a quick look at any of the YT vids in reply#9.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1591180/#msg1591180
 :bullshit:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2018, 04:19:08 pm »
Well as the old saying goes, "people want to believe", and "there's a sucker born every minute."

Products like this get created by two types of people, one type is the investment scammer, who knows their product can't do what is claimed but they will ride the wave for as long as they can. The other is the ignorant person who genuinely believes their device works, usually due to improper measurement techniques like using an averaging DMM to measure something that is not a mains frequency sine wave, or making flawed assumptions.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2018, 04:21:53 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2018, 05:23:00 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.

Yeah, you guys are using one of them right now.  :-DD 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2018, 06:27:51 pm »
I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers.

Servers and network elements got active PFC and the only source of reactive power could be the AC. The real problem are factories with tons of large electric motors.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2018, 06:59:04 pm »
I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers.

Servers and network elements got active PFC and the only source of reactive power could be the AC. The real problem are factories with tons of large electric motors.

Agreed. But factories that consume lots of VARs are a known thing, and people have been dealing with it for a long time. How old is the synchronous condenser? More modern solutions are STATCOM or SVC. (synchronous VAR compensator)

And, as your say, PSUs in modern servers are quite well behaved regarding power factor. It /might/ be more efficient or cheaper overall to use PSUs without PFC and instead have some kind of site-level PFC, but I don't think I've heard of anyone doing that. Could make sense in very large facilities with all the same custom servers, like a Facebook or Google.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2018, 06:59:12 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.

Yeah, you guys are using one of them right now.  :-DD


My suggestion was in your favor. Why the shitty reply?  :-//
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Offline jmelson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2018, 08:00:04 pm »
Can someone with the right expertise take a look at the patent?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9178354B2/en?oq=9%2c178%2c354

Like any patent, it has to teach someone everything necessary to reproduce a functioning device. It is interesting that one of the inventors has others in the electronics field.
HAH!  You couldn't build ANYTHING from that patent application.  It was incredibly vague.  Also, the claims, as far as I could see, NEVER mentioned anything about energy saving.  It is a UPS with harmonic filtering/power factor correction.

Jon
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2018, 08:07:06 pm »
HAH!  You couldn't build ANYTHING from that patent application.  It was incredibly vague.  Also, the claims, as far as I could see, NEVER mentioned anything about energy saving.  It is a UPS with harmonic filtering/power factor correction.

Jon

Agreed. Let's take a few bog-standard pieces of equipment and put them in one box and call it an invention. Not utterly useless, but, please.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2018, 09:21:17 pm »
I have actually had a few situations where I would have killed for a reasonably compact, efficient box that could inject current to cancel the current harmonics (but it would have to manage to cancel hundreds of A to be useful)....

The classic case being a rig full of old school Martin lighting with the early switching ballasts, 700W (and about 1400VA) each with massive triplen harmonics, nightmare for both overheating neutral bars and cooking delta-star transformer windings. Phase angle dimming can cause much the same issue and you can have the three phase neutral current actually EXCEED the current in any one phase by nearly a factor of two.

Unfortunately this is not that box, and selling to users who don't pay for VAR anyway?

Regards, Dan.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2018, 09:27:15 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2018, 09:42:27 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+

It's the strangest elinkedin I've ever see anyone write.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:46:19 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2018, 09:45:15 pm »
As we can see, these things do absolutely nothing to the supply, just waste 100W.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2018, 09:49:30 pm »
I suspect this forum will not age well.  :-+

So, I'm on the fence on this and I'm trying to figure this out.

Some people are dismissing your device outright as snake oil.
Some are saying, "yeah, nothing new here."
Some are saying, "yeah, anyone could throw these components together and do this."

But...since it is patented...what exactly is the inventive, non-obvious aspect of it? There must be at least one and maybe that's what isn't clear to others about your device. I know how much it costs to file a patent via the PCT process and to maintain it so it isn't something you do lightly. Your priority date is 2011 so I know you must have paid the maintenance fees or let the patent expire. Did your application get granted in non-US terrorities?

You have entered a lions' den seemingly to initially promote and now defend your product. The onus really is on you to explain the novelty of your invention and demonstrate that it is being used successfully in the real world, e.g, by testimonials.

I think this forum will age very well together with the very poor impression your product has because you haven't offered convincing information. Anyone curious about your product would almost certainly do a Google search and this thread will definitely come up near the top of the list of hits.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:52:25 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
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Online ArthurDent

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2018, 10:43:46 pm »
One thing mentioned at minute 6:08 in the first video that touted how great the invention was is that you will no longer need that external power supply for your laptop or other devices. When the company founder plugs his laptop directly into the line I might take notice.

I also need to know how one of these great inventions at the breaker box can optimize the power to many differing reactive loads that are connected to all the branch circuits in a house. Maybe they should make mini versions of the invention to be used at each outlet. Oh wait, the reason I have so many different supplies/chargers is that every device I own has a different voltage/power requirement.
 
A final thing: if the device saves so much energy and makes everything run so efficiently, why the two fans? Maybe they need to put another of these inventions before the first invention to increase its efficiency. Just a thought.

I believe this is a video describing their first model. 

 
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2018, 10:52:51 pm »
Oh, that's FUNNY.

I love how it gets more and more ridiculous as it progresses. And serious props to the presenter - he certainly had a mouthful of gibberish to deliver and, boy, did he.
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Offline extralifedisco

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2018, 11:48:58 pm »
Fascinated by this company and their weird PR approach. In principle, this is probably something that would benefit certain industrial applications like datacenters. If you have a bunch of rack servers on the same circuit as noisy AC loads like air conditioners, you'll have a bunch of line noise and phase issues that have to get dealt with somewhere, and the PC power supplies are dealing with most of it. I don't know all that much about server power supply design but presumably that filtering results in a heat loss in some switchmode supply somewhere, and shortens component lives, etc.

What the company is claiming is threefold:
 - one, that those losses can be recognized/analyzed in real-time via the supply side of power line
 - two, that they can compensate for them in-real time with their device's inductive loading
 - three, those savings are significant enough to warrant a $700,000 installation

Those first two claims are impressive, but I guess they're plausible. Everyone knows power noise is a thing, but the company is claiming their fancy measurements reveal it's more of a problem than previously known. Maybe they're right! But if it can optimize a wall of servers to the tune of 120W savings to justify their always-on supercomputer and it's hefty price tag, I'd be, uh, very surprised.

Then there's the stuff in their videos and marketing wank. "Server temperature dropped by twenty degrees" (fahrenheit?) "Double the lifespan of your laptop battery." "100% accurate prediction of component failure." Come on.

The charitable assumption is that some excitable marketing people and their media friends have gotten their hands on this interesting niche industrial project and are attempting to raise funding by spinning it out to ridiculous extremes "'The use cases are endless,' Heuberger marveled to me. 'They’re freaking endless. It’s amazing.'" I'm sure we've all worked somewhere where it felt like marketing was actively working against engineering, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure it does something, but if it really works as well as is claimed, why all the snake oil claims? You don't need to market this to individual consumers, you need to sell it to datacenter engineers!
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2018, 12:05:43 am »
I want to see measured results under controlled conditions. Right now I fail to see the advantage over existing systems that have active PFC incorporated into the power supplies. Large industrial customers with motors are easily remedied through the use of passive PFC capacitors and even that is less of an issue these days with VFDs becoming common. There is simply not much waste to reduce, it's not as if the wiring in buildings gets particularly warm, and if the waste is not dissipated in the wires then where is it going? For this device to result in any savings, it has to result in less total heat released inside the structure. Power consumption and heat are both things that are easily measured, we can easily account for essentially all of the energy that goes into a building.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2018, 01:53:58 am »
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 03:31:25 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2018, 11:02:13 am »
If you search for "reactive power compensation" you'll find interesting stuff like:
- https://www.fingrid.fi/globalassets/dokumentit/en/customers/grid-connection/supply-of-reactive-power-and-maintenance-of-reactive-power-reserves_2017.pdf
- https://new.abb.com/docs/librariesprovider78/chile-documentos/jornadas-tecnicas-2013---presentaciones/4-jos%C3%A9-matias---reactive-power-compensation.pdf?sfvrsn=2
- http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.193.6385&rep=rep1&type=pdf

How would a 3DFS product save money when the substations already use shunt capacitors to compensate reactive power?
2 things. Using capacitors in this manner is inefficient and wastes TONS of energy.

Second, shunt systems are only injecting. There are two sides to the correction equation

3DFS is installed in parallel and injects as well as extracts (dis/charge) the internal inductive or capacitive system. Also at the microsecond level.

It is an evolution from a shunt system. Reactive power needs to be corrected at the same time as harmonics, phase balance, etc.

This is why the Real-Time computing. Without it, there can only be guessing.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:05:56 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2018, 11:36:38 am »
Doesn't the charging/discharging of the inductive or capacitive system at the microsecond level cause losses (in form of heat) too? The typical residential building connection over here is 3-phase 35 or 63A.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2018, 11:40:49 am »
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that this device doesn't work, producing cleaner AC power. What is not so believable is claims that somewhat cleaner power makes electrical devices fed by this cleaner power amazingly more efficient.
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2018, 11:52:52 am »
 I suspect that 3DFS have designed themselves into a dying niche market.  As national and regional energy efficiency standards become more and more stringent, the cost to build in high efficiency PFC in a PSU is falling in relative terms due to the increased market for it.

They now need to re-target their product to attempt to get a return on the investment so-far.   IMHO their best option would be to ditch the bulls--t efficiency claims and market it with a significant markup to audiophools who will pay through the nose for cleaner power even if it doesn't make a perceptible difference.  8)
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2018, 12:31:27 pm »
Digital electricity is a flow of ones and zeroes instead of electrons?
http://brave.com <- THE BEST BROWSER
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2018, 03:23:39 pm »
Digital electricity is a flow of ones and zeroes instead of electrons?

It's electricity with fingers.
 

Offline nmart

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2018, 03:28:18 pm »
Chris D., sounds like you've built an active harmonics filter. The tech sounds decent for power quality but too many people confuse this product with power factor correction to understand how well this may work for its intended purpose. I'm not in marketing (I'm an EE at an electrical utility) but from reading the Vox article I'm guessing it's difficult to target non-technical people and still maintain scientific accuracy.

Here's a marketing strategy that would help me and might appeal to other audiences. The start of your sales pitch could define the current state of harmonic filtering devices. Then display some charts (ideally produced by an independent lab) with the reduction in harmonic distortion performed by your device compared to competitors' harmonic filtering devices (or the absence of them) that include heat comparisons (a direct relation to efficiency that most people can understand). When I'm looking to buy a truck I want to see the horsepower/torque curves. :) If the device does help with power factor or phase balancing, be clear about how those additional benefits are different than power quality (more explaining that science and current technology is required) and how well they perform compared to existing devices. And just try and delete the Vox article if possible.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2018, 06:18:10 pm »
 :horse: :popcorn:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2018, 06:32:31 pm »
This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:

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Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2018, 06:48:39 pm »
How many people care about harmonics? If there was a significant amount of power wasted then wires and equipment would be running hot. While I try to maintain a power factor reasonably close to unity to avoid wasting circuit capacity, I don't really care about harmonics. Neither the power factor nor the harmonics affect my utility bill in any measurable way.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2018, 07:02:23 pm »
This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:


The comparison in your graphic isn't a fair one. The Accusine PFV+ 60A is for 380-480V.  You are comparing it to your VectorQ2 which is not. How about comparing dimensions with your VectorQ5? What would the installation time for that be on a 380-480V system? A bit more than 20 minutes, I'm sure.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2018, 07:48:08 pm »


This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:


The comparison in your graphic isn't a fair one. The Accusine PFV+ 60A is for 380-480V.  You are comparing it to your VectorQ2 which is not. How about comparing dimensions with your VectorQ5? What would the installation time for that be on a 380-480V system? A bit more than 20 minutes, I'm sure.

Nope, only 15% bigger. Same 20 minutes to install. Flip of a fuse commissioning.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 07:55:23 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2018, 07:56:27 pm »
The technical specification for the VectorQ series states "Full +/- 90 deg of phase angle correction" and "Unlimited power rating in all phases". I think the unlimited power rating needs some explanation, because no VectorQ model is able to handle an unlimited VAR.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2018, 08:02:13 pm »
The technical specification for the VectorQ series states "Full +/- 90 deg of phase angle correction" and "Unlimited power rating in all phases". I think the unlimited power rating needs some explanation, because no VectorQ model is able to handle an unlimited VAR.

When it is in parallel it is.

The techs limiting parameter is kVAR.

If it exceeds the kVAR limit, the device still works, but is only able to "clean" up to a point, so the excessive reactive power will begin to affect the network. It will not be as deleterious as it is without correction though and the tech will alert the user to this limit as it approaches and passes it.

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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2018, 08:12:44 pm »
I see, but I'd recommend to specify the maximum VAR rating for each model since an "unlimited power rating" is quite misleading.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2018, 08:26:26 pm »
I see, but I'd recommend to specify the maximum VAR rating for each model since an "unlimited power rating" is quite misleading.

I guess so, but it is technically accurate. If we put N/A, people would also lose their shit.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2018, 10:05:22 pm »
It's all going well, although I won't be getting one. :)
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2018, 11:24:51 pm »
Cut the strident hype marketing, publish a proper spec sheet (How much current can the thing inject or absorb to control PF and harmonics and what are the losses) and you might actually have a product that is useful in some applications, but no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.

As I say, a box that can kill the triplen on a 400V three phase supply to reduce the pile up in the neural by 300A or so that was cheaper, lighter and easier to move then a 300kVA K rated delta-star transformer, yea, I could maybe see a use for that, but I need numbers dammit, and I need to know where the warts are.

Stuff written by the marketing/investor relations fluffer is an active turn off when there are other players with similar kit doing similar things who don't feel the need for the services of a fluffer to make their kit look impressive.

73 Dan.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2018, 11:34:34 pm »
Cut the strident hype marketing, publish a proper spec sheet (How much current can the thing inject or absorb to control PF and harmonics and what are the losses) and you might actually have a product that is useful in some applications, but no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.

As I say, a box that can kill the triplen on a 400V three phase supply to reduce the pile up in the neural by 300A or so that was cheaper, lighter and easier to move then a 300kVA K rated delta-star transformer, yea, I could maybe see a use for that, but I need numbers dammit, and I need to know where the warts are.

Stuff written by the marketing/investor relations fluffer is an active turn off when there are other players with similar kit doing similar things who don't feel the need for the services of a fluffer to make their kit look impressive.

73 Dan.

You needn't know that anymore. The amount of current injected or extracted is only microamps at any given microsecond, unless absorbing a lightning surge, and it absorbs the whole thing. That is the only absorption, the rest is microcorrections that are temporarily stored. The energy comes from the grid because we are in parallel. It is like a load. It is a dipole in Kirchoff's Law if you are familiar.

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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2018, 11:51:41 pm »
Quote
no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.
I read the bullshit patent with all the prior art smokescreen fluff that doesn't say anything. So what's the deal, apply power factor correction at harmonics as well as the fundamental ? Fare enough that's not a trivial task but well done anyway. I didn't see any mention of providing a broadband conjugate match to the load however, harmonics included. So nothing new here really.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2018, 12:05:57 am »
Quote
It is like a load. It is a dipole in Kirchoff's Law if you are familiar.
No effort made whatsoever to explain the engineering principles behind the idea just snakeoil marketing. No peer reviewed papers published, it's just a croc of shit.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2018, 12:32:49 am »
You needn't know that anymore. The amount of current injected or extracted is only microamps at any given microsecond,

That's it for me! [Redacted]
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 01:24:41 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2018, 12:51:55 am »
 :=\

Still waiting...what's the non-obvious, inventive step?

 :-//
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2018, 01:56:36 am »
:=\

Still waiting...what's the non-obvious, inventive step?

 :-//

Execution? Computing? Efficiency?
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2018, 02:21:05 am »
Why are you asking me?

The non-obvious part should be in your patent, right? So, why won't you give a simple explanation of what exactly that is - it's not as if it is proprietary information. Patents are notoriously hard to read if you aren't used to them. I am but I'm not familiar with the art. I'd like to know what is novel and patentable about your technology.

Simple, to-the-point answers to the questions raised would be helpful.
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2018, 02:40:19 am »
Talking of "microamps in microseconds" bullshit and getting back to real world engineering, the so called One-Watt Initiative is going to change from 500mW(2013) to 300mW standby power in 2020. I can't remember off hand which household appliances are being targeted but probably not 40" TVs, well not yet anyway. 300mW in standby, sounds easy but try doing that in practice.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2018, 02:54:06 am »

The amount of current injected or extracted is only microamps at any given microsecond,
And just how is “only microamps” expected to correct a line carrying several tens of amps?
What’s more, if you are injecting or extracting “ only microamps” at any given moment, why does the box need fan cooling?
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2018, 03:05:19 am »
Well, one uA per uS is one A/s which means 10s for 10A. Not exactly fast...
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2018, 03:29:18 am »
Cut the strident hype marketing, publish a proper spec sheet (How much current can the thing inject or absorb to control PF and harmonics and what are the losses) and you might actually have a product that is useful in some applications, but no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.

As I say, a box that can kill the triplen on a 400V three phase supply to reduce the pile up in the neural by 300A or so that was cheaper, lighter and easier to move then a 300kVA K rated delta-star transformer, yea, I could maybe see a use for that, but I need numbers dammit, and I need to know where the warts are.

Stuff written by the marketing/investor relations fluffer is an active turn off when there are other players with similar kit doing similar things who don't feel the need for the services of a fluffer to make their kit look impressive.

73 Dan.

You needn't know that anymore.

So - you aren't going to provide engineering detail which will demonstrate why engineers "needn't know that anymore".  You just say (in effect): Here it is, it works.  Trust me.  Sounds like a used car salesman.

If you think such details are beyond the capabilities of some of the membership here to comprehend, then you are so far up yourselves it is not funny.  Then again, maybe you do expect some members to be all over it and that's why you won't.

If you can't put your marketing hat to one side and start putting out some solid engineering specifications, then there can be little doubt in my mind this product doesn't have the performance to match up with the hype being touted.  You can call me names about that - but that won't change the fact that you aren't prepared to answer with hard data.

Personally, I'm prepared to consider the possibility that this invention does a job - but I'm a long way away from believing it's a job worth doing.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:31:30 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2018, 03:34:29 am »
I far as I'm concerned it's a $100,000 blue box that doesn't actually do anything useful, I'd be surprised it it even conditions its own supply. :horse:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2018, 03:39:17 am »
:=\

Still waiting...what's the non-obvious, inventive step?

 :-//

Execution? Computing? Efficiency?


"Efficiency" is non-obvious and inventive?????


No, efficiency is something that your invention has to demonstrably improve (unmet industrial need).

HOW does your invention improve efficiency?

WHAT is the non-obvious feature of your "computing"?

Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2018, 05:00:14 am »
Looking at the provided installed unit, I see it being connected via some small cables to the distribution unit. As the incoming feeders are 10mm at least, so rated for 100A or so, and the blue box is only connected by what looks like 2.5mm cables at best, i would hazard to say it can only correct for a current of around 20A at most, otherwise the wires would burn out pretty fast.

Hard things needed are maximum harmonic current ( can be true RMS or even just equivalent current, does not matter so long as the measurement method is given, you can work the maths to get a better idea given the details, but a Fourier transform would be a lot better as well) the unit can inject or remove per cycle, and the maximum instantaneous ( either over a single mains cycle or even per sampling period if period is defined) current it can handle.

Now, as to overvoltage spec, the typical lightning pulse is given an IEC spec, which is where you see that 8uS pulse rise time on EMC testing, given that lightning typically hits high voltage ( 132kV or higher) power lines, and is attenuated by both line impedance and by a lot of lightning arrestors. Those are arc gaps on each HV pylon ( those little horns across each insulator  hanging the line), the massive VDR stacks at each distribution point ( looks like a very fat insulator and contains thousands of varistor capsules stacked on each other), the distribution transformers themselves ( makes a low pass filter to broaden the leading edge and attenuate the pulse and spread the energy in time for the VDR stacks to react), and then further arc gaps ( smaller gap so lower breakdown voltage), more VDR stacks ( also smaller, as they only have to withstand 66kV, 33kV or 11kV operating voltage) and also line reactors to filter harmonics and of course the smaller transformers at point of use points. Still, with all that, you will get kV pulses on your incoming mains, and just how high a voltage can this clamp, given that high voltage power devices trade off power handling for speed, reliability and rate of rise, and miller capacitance is going to give you a bad day every time you exceed bonding wire limitations.

Now, if you can give a box that handles 100A, even single phase, can handle harmonic currents up to 10kHz, and can be connected via a 100A breaker and not fail when you put on a 50A vibratory feeder ( the thing most hated for power factor correction, as it uses a half wave power SCR to drive a massive electromagnet, giving you every harmonic but the fundamental mains frequency and spikes as well with the phase angle control deciding where on each pulse to turn on said hockey puck SCR with 20A of gate current to turn it on hard and fast) on the power line, along with handling the power factor correction for the 22kW motors driving the conveyors on the line, and you will sell these like hot cakes.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2018, 10:19:36 am »

The amount of current injected or extracted is only microamps at any given microsecond,
And just how is “only microamps” expected to correct a line carrying several tens of amps?
What’s more, if you are injecting or extracting “ only microamps” at any given moment, why does the box need fan cooling?

You need to think differently. Smaller and faster.

When you are correcting electricity in Real-Time, you do not need a lot of power. That is the point.

It is like a pendulum
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2018, 10:25:02 am »
Cut the strident hype marketing, publish a proper spec sheet (How much current can the thing inject or absorb to control PF and harmonics and what are the losses) and you might actually have a product that is useful in some applications, but no engineer is going to wade thru the bullshit videos and puff pieces to decide if the actual underlying box does what they need.

As I say, a box that can kill the triplen on a 400V three phase supply to reduce the pile up in the neural by 300A or so that was cheaper, lighter and easier to move then a 300kVA K rated delta-star transformer, yea, I could maybe see a use for that, but I need numbers dammit, and I need to know where the warts are.

Stuff written by the marketing/investor relations fluffer is an active turn off when there are other players with similar kit doing similar things who don't feel the need for the services of a fluffer to make their kit look impressive.

73 Dan.

You needn't know that anymore.

So - you aren't going to provide engineering detail which will demonstrate why engineers "needn't know that anymore".  You just say (in effect): Here it is, it works.  Trust me.  Sounds like a used car salesman.

If you think such details are beyond the capabilities of some of the membership here to comprehend, then you are so far up yourselves it is not funny.  Then again, maybe you do expect some members to be all over it and that's why you won't.

If you can't put your marketing hat to one side and start putting out some solid engineering specifications, then there can be little doubt in my mind this product doesn't have the performance to match up with the hype being touted.  You can call me names about that - but that won't change the fact that you aren't prepared to answer with hard data.

Personally, I'm prepared to consider the possibility that this invention does a job - but I'm a long way away from believing it's a job worth doing.

The point of our technology is to automate power networks, which are only machines requesting electricity from other machines.

How do we do what we do. Lots of fucking math. What else do you want? I have told you what the FESS does, explained Real-Time Computing...  That is it.

I get that nobody is familiar with this and my engineering language is mediocre, but that does not change what the technology does.

You all should focus more on the results. That is the transformative part. That is the part that is going to affect you all.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 10:59:14 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2018, 11:16:46 am »
Sorry, but we're engineers who love numbers, facts, proper datasheets and lot's of wonderful math. We don't buy anything "magic".
 
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Online BravoV

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2018, 11:22:58 am »
How do we do what we do. Lots of fucking math. What else do you want? I have told you what the FESS does, explained Real-Time Computing...  That is it.

I get that nobody is familiar with this and my engineering language is mediocre, but that does not change what the technology does.

You all should focus more on the results. That is the transformative part. That is the part that is going to affect you all.

Are you saying you are just the marketing dude ?

Get the real company's engineer to speak here, cause all you did is just ruining your company.

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2018, 11:37:36 am »
How do we do what we do. Lots of fucking math. What else do you want? I have told you what the FESS does, explained Real-Time Computing...  That is it.

I get that nobody is familiar with this and my engineering language is mediocre, but that does not change what the technology does.

You all should focus more on the results. That is the transformative part. That is the part that is going to affect you all.

Are you saying you are just the marketing dude ?

Get the real company's engineer to speak here, cause all you did is just ruining your company.

No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.

I am introducing you all to the concept and have no problem entertaining serious questions, so ask some.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2018, 11:43:58 am »
Sorry, but we're engineers who love numbers, facts, proper datasheets and lot's of wonderful math. We don't buy anything "magic".

Right, so what is the math behind all the losses that you experience in power networks? Can you explain that?

Modern day power networks are a joke. Cascading failures, brown outs, insane voltage deviation, etc. These are all symptoms of an uncontrolled power network, plain and simple.

Talk to me about the math behind Australia purchasing that largest battery on earth. Good job guys. We all know what happens to batteries over time and how they affect the power network and now we can look forward to that unfolding in real time at an unprecedented grid scale.

I appreciate the troll nature of this forum, particularly because it was posted in the "dodgy technology" part. You guys are hilarious. But sincerely, this technology will become very important for your country once the ramifications of the peculiar decisions that you have made begin to surface.
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Online BravoV

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2018, 11:55:58 am »
How do we do what we do. Lots of fucking math. What else do you want? I have told you what the FESS does, explained Real-Time Computing...  That is it.

I get that nobody is familiar with this and my engineering language is mediocre, but that does not change what the technology does.

You all should focus more on the results. That is the transformative part. That is the part that is going to affect you all.

Are you saying you are just the marketing dude ?

Get the real company's engineer to speak here, cause all you did is just ruining your company.

No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.

I am introducing you all to the concept and have no problem entertaining serious questions, so ask some.

Gotcha, bait works nicely.  :-DD

Guys, its clear now, its a scam.

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2018, 12:05:55 pm »
How do we do what we do. Lots of fucking math. What else do you want? I have told you what the FESS does, explained Real-Time Computing...  That is it.

I get that nobody is familiar with this and my engineering language is mediocre, but that does not change what the technology does.

You all should focus more on the results. That is the transformative part. That is the part that is going to affect you all.

Are you saying you are just the marketing dude ?

Get the real company's engineer to speak here, cause all you did is just ruining your company.

No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.

I am introducing you all to the concept and have no problem entertaining serious questions, so ask some.

Gotcha, bait works nicely.  :-DD

Guys, its clear now, its a scam.

 :palm:  :horse:  Please go ALL IN on the disputing of 3DFS Technology, and this goes for everybody. I want there to be lots of documentation for review.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:08:39 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2018, 12:36:03 pm »
Sorry, but we're engineers who love numbers, facts, proper datasheets and lot's of wonderful math. We don't buy anything "magic".

Right, so what is the math behind all the losses that you experience in power networks? Can you explain that?

Remember the links I've posted a few pages ago? How can I take 3DFS seriously when even very basic specs like the maximum VAR are missing? This is like I would build a very simple PSU with a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a filter cap, and you would try to sell me a filter cap with a voltage rating and an "unlimited power rating". When asking about that unlimited power rating you tell me that this is technically correct because the cap is in parallel. Still I don't know the capacitance and can't determine if the cap is suitable as a filter cap for an 1A PSU. :palm:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 01:50:34 pm by madires »
 

Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2018, 12:36:56 pm »
This is a snip of a datasheet for a real active harmonic cancellation and power factor box that I can buy today. There are many such in the market from a wide range of vendors, but they are mostly more or less similar and are technology which is well established and well understood by everyone who needs it.



See real data, and this is just from their 4 colour glossy that has marketing drool all over it, if I was actively shopping any of those guys would hook me up with a staff engineer who I can assure you would not be telling me that I am too stupid to understand how it works, and most assuredly would not be talking about us and uA when I got 300A of triplen to fix (Because doing either one will not get you a sale). 

Sorry, guys. You are about 20 years too late with the idea, which is not to say that grabbing a load of cash from investors who did not do due diligence is not going to work of course.

Regards, Dan.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:40:04 pm by dmills »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2018, 12:49:22 pm »
This is a snip of a datasheet for a real active harmonic cancellation and power factor box that I can buy today. There are many such in the market from a wide range of vendors, but they are mostly more or less similar and are technology which is well established and well understood by everyone who needs it.



See real data, and this is just from their 4 colour glossy that has marketing drool all over it, if I was actively shopping any of those guys would hook me up with a staff engineer who I can assure you would not be telling me that I am too stupid to understand how it works, and most assuredly would not be talking about us and uA when I got 300A of triplen to fix (Because doing either one will not get you a sale). 

Sorry, guys. You are about 20 years too late with the idea, which is not to say that grabbing a load of cash from investors who did not do due diligence is not going to work of course.

Regards, Dan.


 :horse: :horse:

This is a computing system. It is different from what you are used to and therefore the metrics that are important are different. This technology synchronizes electricity in Real-Time in any multi-phase power network. There is a lot to that as all of the people on this forum are aware.

You are all drilling down on the details of the box and not on the concept that I am presenting.

Our interaction with electricity is not anything that has every been achieved before. It is a breakthrough. I am here to discuss that, but as engineers do, the conversation immediately plummets into the abyss of disbelief and subsequent trolldom.

I answered your question. You do not like the answer because it does not fit your predefined understanding of how shit works therefore you immediately discount.

So, please ask questions that you would like to know the answers to and I will answer them. Through this process, you will eventually form a new category of energy technology and fit that little blue box inside.

 
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Online BravoV

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2018, 12:56:34 pm »
Just stop asking or questioning, he already clearly mentioned that no one will ever understand it.

Just put your faith on it , oh ... dont forget to buy , pay or invest ...that its all about.  :-DD
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:58:45 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2018, 01:09:42 pm »
Just stop asking or questioning, he already clearly mentioned that no one will ever understand it.

Just put your faith on it , oh ... dont forget to buy , pay or invest ...that its all about.  :-DD

This is my favorite type troll comment. That we are somehow duping investors. Except, as highlighted in the Vox article, we are not accepting any investment. This is self financed for 8 years now because we know what we have.

Every single one of you would do the same if you had the knowledge and balls to do so.  :box:  :-+
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Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2018, 01:29:10 pm »
Ok, so down to cases, I have three phase synced 500kVA alternators powering ~1MVA of kit in a field somewhere (Actually sometimes I really do).

Measured at the busbar cabinet I have a displacement power factor of 0.8 but say 30% THDi (Most of it third, fifth and ninth harmonic, this is not doing my neutral any favours, and is also causing a lot of heating in the machines stators and the load is unbalanced so I am also getting significant negative phase sequence currents producing nasty heating in the rotors), given I have hundreds of amps in play, what exactly does that little blue box do for me?

What it cannot be doing is cancelling the harmonics or balancing the per phase loads, current into and out of a node sums to zero, it is kind of the rules, so to cancel a meaningful amount of the harmonic distortion you need to inject a current waveform related to the harmonic current but in antiphase, this means that with a few hundred amps of harmonic currents in play you need wiring between the harmonic reduction box and the bus sized to deal with at least a sizeable proportion of the harmonic current.

Bugger the concept, what does that box do for me? The Power Electronics kit tells me exactly what I can expect, as does the simple, dumb, reliable, but fucking heavy K rated delta-star transformer, you don't say beyond "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", and engineers do not like magic, we expect to be able to quantify what something does.

All the AHC kit on the market is a computing system, while there is no reason you could not do it with analogue computers, nobody does these days, they all have a little DSP board in there controlling the switching.

Sorry, not sold.

Regards, Dan (Trolling marketing types from startups is fun).
 
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Online BravoV

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3DFS SCAM
« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2018, 01:39:27 pm »
Just stop asking or questioning, he already clearly mentioned that no one will ever understand it.

Just put your faith on it , oh ... dont forget to buy , pay or invest ...that its all about.  :-DD

This is my favorite type troll comment. That we are somehow duping investors. Except, as highlighted in the Vox article, we are not accepting any investment. This is self financed for 8 years now because we know what we have.

Every single one of you would do the same if you had the knowledge and balls to do so.  :box:  :-+

LOL .. 2nd bait taken, again.  :-DD

Look, you're the one who keep emphasizing that no mortal souls will understand it, yet you keep challenging people to ask, how come ? Isn't that a real troll work ?  >:D

Anyway, good luck to your quest there, I will just leave few tags below for Google's crawler, hopefully will save some potential victims buyers in the future who probably will fire Google 1st before commiting.

"Is 3DFS scam ?"
"Discussion on fishy 3DFS offering"

Guess thats enough.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 01:46:31 pm by BravoV »
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2018, 01:48:38 pm »

No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.

I am introducing you all to the concept and have no problem entertaining serious questions, so ask some.


You've got a patent for this. Do you understand the purpose of a patent???? Evidently not. I have asked multiple times for you to explain the novel aspect of your invention since it is hard to deduce from the patent. You seem to have a problem entertaining them.


Your patent is required by federal law to describe the best way you conceive of reducing to practise your invention. You can't put in half-baked versions with key information missing and then claim people are too thick to figure it out.

The more you go on replying with your stick-up-your-ass bollocks, the less credibility you have. If this is part of some weird viral marketing effort, I'd fetch a doctor.

The troll doth protest too much, methinks.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 01:52:46 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2018, 01:56:36 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2018, 01:58:52 pm »
Well this has reminded me that I need to have another look at AHC kit, but I know one manufacturer I will not be asking to quote.

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2018, 02:04:30 pm »

No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.

I am introducing you all to the concept and have no problem entertaining serious questions, so ask some.


You've got a patent for this. Do you understand the purpose of a patent???? Evidently not. I have asked multiple times for you to explain the novel aspect of your invention since it is hard to deduce from the patent. You seem to have a problem entertaining them.


Your patent is required by federal law to describe the best way you conceive of reducing to practise your invention. You can't put in half-baked versions with key information missing and then claim people are too thick to figure it out.

The more you go on replying with your stick-up-your-ass bollocks, the less credibility you have. If this is part of some weird viral marketing effort, I'd fetch a doctor.

The troll doth protest too much, methinks.



So that everybody is clear on what 3DFS Technology does:

3DFS Technology is embedded into power networks and measures and adjusts the electricity to precisely match the ideal demand of all loads in the network simultaneously at the microsecond level. That is our unique function.

A power network must be sized accordingly. It could take multiple devices or products for a perfect power network as shown in the one-line spec attached in a compressor based refrigeration switchgear.

We need to define what a product does vs. what a SDE power network looks like. There is a distinction. If we have compete control of the network as depicted in this switchgear, the benefits significantly multiply.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2018, 02:07:33 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."


This is true. We offer bottled water and demonstrate our technology.

Seriously though, this is a fucking facebook review for an R&D cum startup. I made this reference in jest that we would have reviews, but thank you for taking it seriously.  |O :scared:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 02:10:22 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2018, 02:10:48 pm »
You've described the method, not the apparatus. How do you actually do it? How do you do all this on the microsecond/microamp scale in a way no one else has ever thought of? Which claim in the patent is it?
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2018, 02:12:21 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."


This is true. We offer bottled water and demonstrate our technology.

Seriously though, this is a fucking facebook review for an R&D cum startup. I made this reference in jest that we would have reviews, but thank you for taking it seriously.  |O :scared:


And it's worked out for you how?
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2018, 02:12:42 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."

A few posts ago he has claimed that 3DFS doesn't accept investments. :scared:
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2018, 02:18:12 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."

A few posts ago he has claimed that 3DFS doesn't accept investments. :scared:

If you are an entrepreneur or an investor in energy tech, you want to know what we are doing. It will shape your present investment strategy.

Energy technology is not headed the way everybody thinks and 3DFS is the reason why.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2018, 02:19:20 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."


This is true. We offer bottled water and demonstrate our technology.

Seriously though, this is a fucking facebook review for an R&D cum startup. I made this reference in jest that we would have reviews, but thank you for taking it seriously.  |O :scared:


And it's worked out for you how?

Well, we have burned through a shitload of bottled water in the last few years. Also we recently installed a water cooler, which is more efficient. I had not thought to update the facebook page.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Online BravoV

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2018, 02:22:51 pm »
I see 3DFS has a FB page and a 5 star review - by the man himself.

"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."

A few posts ago he has claimed that 3DFS doesn't accept investments. :scared:

He took and swallowed my baits completely without 2nd thought, probably a panicking early investor that seeing his money flushed into the drain, hence the desperate moves here, all posts made basically have nothing essential in it.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2018, 02:29:42 pm »
A few posts ago he has claimed that 3DFS doesn't accept investments. :scared:

If you are an entrepreneur or an investor in energy tech, you want to know what we are doing. It will shape your present investment strategy.

Why would 3DFS advise entrepreneurs/investors about their technology if they don't benefit in a some way? Cui bono?
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2018, 02:29:58 pm »
If you are an entrepreneur or an investor in energy tech, you want to know what we are doing. It will shape your present investment strategy.

If you are a potential customer you also want to know what you are doing but your replies show you don't want to share that information.


I notice that one of the inventors - Vladislav Oleynik - is the registered agent and a manager for 3DFS LLC. I see he is also the CEO of Umbrella Technologies Inc that operates out of the same facility. Furthermore, the state of North Carolina suspended and then dissolved UTI for not filing annual reports for 2011/12/13/14. Interestingly, 3DFS was incorporated in 2011.


This alone would be a huge red flag if I wanted to invest in 3DFS or purchase products.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2018, 02:34:43 pm »
A few posts ago he has claimed that 3DFS doesn't accept investments. :scared:

If you are an entrepreneur or an investor in energy tech, you want to know what we are doing. It will shape your present investment strategy.

Why would 3DFS advise entrepreneurs/investors about their technology if they don't benefit in a some way? Cui bono?

Because we manufacture the most efficient way to deliver electricity. We are a for profit company. If people want to build devices that incorporate our technology and go to market, they can.

We are not accepting investors, we are developing technology and selling it.

Is this concept foreign to people?  :-//
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #118 on: June 09, 2018, 02:38:36 pm »
probably a panicking early investor that seeing his money flushed into the drain, hence the desperate moves here, all posts made basically have nothing essential in it.

He's a co-founder (or the founder, take your pick).

And for someone whose formal education is a bachelor's degree in psychology, he sure as hell isn't applying it very well here.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Online BravoV

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2018, 02:41:25 pm »
probably a panicking early investor that seeing his money flushed into the drain, hence the desperate moves here, all posts made basically have nothing essential in it.

He's a co-founder (or the founder, take your pick).

And for someone whose formal education is a bachelor's degree in psychology, he sure as hell isn't applying it very well here.

Prolly not the brightest cookie ...

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2018, 02:42:10 pm »
probably a panicking early investor that seeing his money flushed into the drain, hence the desperate moves here, all posts made basically have nothing essential in it.

He's a co-founder (or the founder, take your pick).

And for someone whose formal education is a bachelor's degree in psychology, he sure as hell isn't applying it very well here.

Yes, that is me. I do have a degree from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Fond memories.  :-+ Would you feel better if I had dropped out of college to begin this startup? I am frequently placed right in the focal point of an insane amount of academic arrogance. An EXCELLENT example of this is the "conversion losses." 

I feel we are getting off topic. The real story here is 3DFS Technology.

Pretty soon, somebody will post about SAMControllers.com and we can start talking about how Real-Time Computing transforms air compressors and water pumps.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:17:02 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2018, 02:56:51 pm »
We are not accepting investors, we are developing technology and selling it.

Are you talking about IP or boxes?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2018, 03:01:22 pm »
We are not accepting investors, we are developing technology and selling it.

Are you talking about IP or boxes?

Products, NOT IP.

Just like in SAM Controllers, we embed this capability into products. It is very valuable to have this computing power. People pay us to do this, which is why we do not need investors.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2018, 03:04:39 pm »
and we can start talking about how Real-Time Computing transforms air compressors and water pumps.

How about talking about the technical things you've been asked multiple times but haven't responded to? I don't think your claim at being an EE holds up.

After 123 posts, do you think you have any credibility? Every evasive and "witty" post just causes it to go down.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2018, 03:10:32 pm »
and we can start talking about how Real-Time Computing transforms air compressors and water pumps.

How about talking about the technical things you've been asked multiple times but haven't responded to? I don't think your claim at being an EE holds up.

After 123 posts, do you think you have any credibility? Every evasive and "witty" post just causes it to go down.

I never claimed to be an EE.

What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2018, 03:22:20 pm »
Are you talking about IP or boxes?

Products, NOT IP.

Just like in SAM Controllers, we embed this capability into products. It is very valuable to have this computing power. People pay us to do this, which is why we do not need investors.

Then I don't understand why 3DFS don't provide proper datasheets.
 

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2018, 03:29:48 pm »
and we can start talking about how Real-Time Computing transforms air compressors and water pumps.

How about talking about the technical things you've been asked multiple times but haven't responded to? I don't think your claim at being an EE holds up.

After 123 posts, do you think you have any credibility? Every evasive and "witty" post just causes it to go down.

I never claimed to be an EE.

What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

LOL .. this thread is becoming entertaining rather than tech discussion.  :-DD

Not an EE but insults the EE crowds here that they're not smart enough to understand it.

This clearly a SCAM ...

Its like selling a battery, claimed that its clean energy, using clean chemical that wont leak or contaminate the earth, ok, thats fine.

But when few EEs starting to ask innocently like what voltage the battery produces ? Watt hour ? Discharge current capability ? Charge speed ? etc ... then again, he insults all of us that are stupid not to understand the jargon words "clean" - "no leak" ... etc. While keep pretending never read those "again" innocent & sincere questions about the technical aspects that MUST be answered by numbers like volt, watt hour and etc.

Unbelievable.  :palm:

Are you have any relative with Andrea Rossi ? The one who invented the e-cat thingie ?  :-DD
 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2018, 03:33:28 pm »
What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

What we like to know is how 3DFS's technology is cleaning up power. The few superficial terms we've heard aren't very helpful. It's like the sales assistant of a car dealership telling us that the car has a steering wheel, four wheels and a motor. Engineers apply technology to solve problems. One has to understand a technology to do this properly.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2018, 03:33:44 pm »
and we can start talking about how Real-Time Computing transforms air compressors and water pumps.

How about talking about the technical things you've been asked multiple times but haven't responded to? I don't think your claim at being an EE holds up.

After 123 posts, do you think you have any credibility? Every evasive and "witty" post just causes it to go down.

I never claimed to be an EE.

What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

LOL .. this thread is becoming entertaining rather than tech discussion.  :-DD

Not an EE but insults the EE crowds here that they're not smart enough to understand it.

This clearly a SCAM ...

Its like selling a battery, claimed that its clean energy, using clean chemical that wont leak or contaminate the earth, ok, thats fine.

But when few EEs starting to ask innocently like what voltage the battery produces ? Watt hour ? Discharge current capability ? Charge speed ? etc ... then again, he insults all of us that are stupid not to understand the jargon words "clean" - "no leak" ... etc. While keep pretending never read those "again" innocent & sincere questions about the technical aspects that MUST be answered by numbers like volt, watt hour and etc.

Unbelievable.  :palm:

Are you have any relative with Andrea Rossi ? The one who invented the e-cat thingie ?  :-DD


Let's talk about how you brilliant EEs manage batteries. GREAT! :box:

Batteries are chemistry, yet the capacity and performance is managed by sensing current, voltage and temperature over time....  :palm:

Which of these is a chemical sensor?  :-//

There are none, which means we presently measure batteries using second derivatives of battery chemistry.  :wtf:

With Real-Time computing, we perform Real-Time chemistry modeling so that we can manage batteries knowing their TRUE capacity.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2018, 03:33:51 pm »

What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

Here you are saying a true thing. The thing to understand is that you are talking to a roomful of skeptical EEs (note: there is no other kind), some of whom have spent their careers in power and power conversion. If you cannot explain it in terms they understand, then you need to find someone in your organization who can.

You seem to be working under the assumption that the people questioning you here must not be very bright, or do not understand electricity, and I can assure you, that is very, very wrong. This is not a forum of journalists or CEOs. These are engineers.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

No, they have been FUZZILY explained, not using normal terms of art, not providing data, graphs, measurements, block diagram, examples. Imagine you are teaching a class on your power optimization to a roomful of undergraduate engineering students. You have 90 minutes. What is in your slide deck?
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2018, 03:35:11 pm »
What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

What we like to know is how 3DFS's technology is cleaning up power. The few superficial terms we've heard aren't very helpful. It's like the sales assistant of a car dealership telling us that the car has a steering wheel, four wheels and a motor. Engineers apply technology to solve problems. One has to understand a technology to do this properly.

We are cleaning up the power at the panel level which distributes perfect power to all the loads. This is done through the Flash Energy Storage System.  |O
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2018, 03:40:50 pm »
What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.
Now THAT is the accusation of a desperate marketing spin doctor!

NOBODY here will dispute the preference for "clean power" over "unclean power" and for you to throw THIS straw man into the discussion really, REALLY, REALLY stinks to high heaven.


Quote

If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.
So you say.

Quote
Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.
You've used words.  They are not clear.  They are not precise.  They are furry and fuzzy.  We want numbers.

We would like you to start out by QUANTIFYING the problem.  Numbers please!  Graphics!  There is nothing new under the sun here.  People working in the power industry today, 10 years ago, 25 years ago or more will understand these numbers - and so will half of the general membership.  You don't need to get all technical about computer correction algorithms - just spell it out.

The show us some numbers and graphics demonstrating what your product does.


If you can't do that, then you're the wrong person to be championing this system on the EEVblog.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2018, 03:42:13 pm »
What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

What a ridiculous statement. Obviously people understand why clean power is better than unclean power.

Quote
If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Some people seem to agree.

Quote
Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

Three concepts does not equal technical detail.

Explain why someone should buy your product over a competitor's. What EXACTLY is your patented invention, not the product that uses it? Do you understand the difference? I'm becoming more convinced your have no idea what your company's patent says nor what a patent is.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #133 on: June 09, 2018, 03:46:11 pm »
We are cleaning up the power at the panel level which distributes perfect power to all the loads. This is done through the Flash Energy Storage System.  |O

Wow. You may understand the purpose but you sure as hell have absolutely no idea at all how your product works and what is so novel that it merits patent protection.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2018, 03:47:19 pm »
What I see here is a lack of understanding of why clean power is better than unclean power. If you guys do not understand that, I am not the guy to explain it.

What a ridiculous statement. Obviously people understand why clean power is better than unclean power.

Quote
If you understand that, then I have the technology that does it.

Some people seem to agree.

Quote
Technical details have been CLEARLY explained. Computing, Flash Energy Storage, Synchronization.

Three concepts does not equal technical detail.

Explain why someone should buy your product over a competitor's. What EXACTLY is your patented invention, not the product that uses it? Do you understand the difference? I'm becoming more convinced your have no idea what your company's patent says nor what a patent is.


Is it that you guys do not understand the benefit of AC electricity synchronization?

Here are some videos... vimeo.com/3dfs
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:55:32 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #135 on: June 09, 2018, 03:49:22 pm »
Is it that you guys do not understand the benefit of AC electricity synchronization?

Do you even know what that term means?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #136 on: June 09, 2018, 03:50:07 pm »
Is it that you guys do not understand the benefit of AC electricity synchronization?

Do you even know what that term means?

This is precisely what I am asking you
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #137 on: June 09, 2018, 03:51:37 pm »
Is it that you guys do not understand the benefit of AC electricity synchronization?

Do you even know what that term means?

This is precisely what I am asking you
You avoided my question: Do you even know what that term means?
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #138 on: June 09, 2018, 03:51:47 pm »
Here are some videos...

"Sorry. This video does not exist."

Love it!  :-DD

Says it all.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #139 on: June 09, 2018, 03:52:28 pm »
... but I found this absolutely priceless....

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2018, 03:53:19 pm »
Awww.... Snap.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #141 on: June 09, 2018, 03:54:51 pm »
Thanks for posting a screenshot. Why on earth would you do that? Nudge, nudge. ;)
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2018, 03:56:04 pm »
Thanks for posting a screenshot. Why on earth would you do that? Nudge, nudge. ;)
A picture is worth a thousand words.   ;D



Time for me to call it a night ... but I have been entertained.
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2018, 04:11:42 pm »
With Real-Time computing, we perform Real-Time chemistry modeling so that we can manage batteries knowing their TRUE capacity.

Nice red herring, but chemistry modeling isn't any different from measuring several values and concluding the battery status based on them (it's just another model).
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #144 on: June 09, 2018, 04:15:40 pm »
With Real-Time computing, we perform Real-Time chemistry modeling so that we can manage batteries knowing their TRUE capacity.

Nice red herring, but chemistry modeling isn't any different from measuring several values and concluding the battery status based on them (it's just another model).

In Real-Time?

We can see that a dendrite is starting to grow and stop the charging a microsecond later.

In case you have not figured this out Real-Time is critical whenever sensors are involved. Otherwise you are just guessing.

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Offline jonovid

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2018, 04:17:06 pm »
I am not a fun of digital AC means electricity.  like having Enron Corporation in your AC means .   :--  electricity costs set by stock prices
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2018, 04:18:48 pm »
We are cleaning up the power at the panel level which distributes perfect power to all the loads. This is done through the Flash Energy Storage System.  |O

You said that 3DFS are selling technology. All I see are buzz words and a very low S/N.
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2018, 04:30:23 pm »
We can see that a dendrite is starting to grow and stop the charging a microsecond later.

In case you have not figured this out Real-Time is critical whenever sensors are involved. Otherwise you are just guessing.

But you're still measuring several values to feed the chemistry model, aren't you?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2018, 08:47:24 pm »
Going is average on tw.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2018, 09:05:38 pm »
We can see that a dendrite is starting to grow and stop the charging a microsecond later.

In case you have not figured this out Real-Time is critical whenever sensors are involved. Otherwise you are just guessing.

But you're still measuring several values to feed the chemistry model, aren't you?

Yes several values of course? Not sure the question.
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #150 on: June 09, 2018, 09:11:19 pm »
We can see that a dendrite is starting to grow and stop the charging a microsecond later.

In case you have not figured this out Real-Time is critical whenever sensors are involved. Otherwise you are just guessing.

But you're still measuring several values to feed the chemistry model, aren't you?


How is this marvel of analytical electrochemistry accomplished exactly? I think you could revolutionize the entire discipline if you can do this on a single sub-microsecond sample. :bullshit:

Yes several values of course? Not sure the question.
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Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2018, 09:19:06 pm »
This is an interesting thread. I see several things going on here:

1. A lot of skepticism

2. A bunch of people who want to give Chris Doerfler the benefit of the doubt, and have proposed various things the device could do that are useful (power quality improvement, PFC) but none that quite measure up to the story that Chris is making (about the large losses from microsecond-level pulses)

3. A founder of 3DFS (Chris Doerfler) who is actively participating in a thread on the EEVblog, but is unwilling or unable to describe his product in terms meaningful to electrical engineers.

#3 is interesting by itself, because I suspect Doerfler believes that this forum is important. Why else would he waste his time? It's also interesting, because he has not dispatched someone skilled in the art of engineering or in the art of marketing wankery to deal with us.

Personally, I have more than enough information at this point to call this a scam, or at the very best, a product that does some useful things, but nothing nearly as exceptional as implied by the hype. I don't know much about David Roberts (@drvox), but I think he will soon realize that his breathless article was one of the bigger missteps of his journalism career -- if he has not already.

For those not in LinkedIn, here is some info on Doerfler that might provide context. I'm not suggesting that a lack of background in EE is necessarily disqualifying for inventing a new technology that will change power transmission forever, but it might justify an eyebrow raise.



« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 09:22:52 pm by djacobow »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2018, 09:29:47 pm »
This is an interesting thread. I see several things going on here:

1. A lot of skepticism

2. A bunch of people who want to give Chris Doerfler the benefit of the doubt, and have proposed various things the device could do that are useful (power quality improvement, PFC) but none that quite measure up to the story that Chris is making (about the large losses from microsecond-level pulses)

3. A founder of 3DFS (Chris Doerfler) who is actively participating in a thread on the EEVblog, but is unwilling or unable to describe his product in terms meaningful to electrical engineers.

#3 is interesting by itself, because I suspect Doerfler believes that this forum is important. Why else would he waste his time? It's also interesting, because he has not dispatched someone skilled in the art of engineering or in the art of marketing wankery to deal with us.

Personally, I have more than enough information at this point to call this a scam, or at the very best, a product that does some useful things, but nothing nearly as exceptional as implied by the hype. I don't know much about David Roberts (@drvox), but I think he will soon realize that his breathless article was one of the bigger missteps of his journalism career -- if he has not already.

For those not in LinkedIn, here is some info on Doerfler that might provide context. I'm not suggesting that a lack of background in EE is necessarily disqualifying for inventing a new technology that will change power transmission forever, but it might justify an eyebrow raise.





Yes, this is me.

You are still missing the point of what our technology does. When I say that it corrects power factor, harmonics, etc. at the panel for all loads with and injection or extraction of current at the microsecond level, that is a fact. It is how our technology accomplishes everything that I am telling you.

Through this one mechanism of action, we can optimize generation, conversion, transformation, distribution, storage and consumption.

This is the answer to the question, "How do you do this?" There is no term of art required, just brute force strength jamming into your heads.

I do agree that this forum has proven most unproductive aside from entertainment.



 

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Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #153 on: June 09, 2018, 09:37:59 pm »

You are still missing the point of what our technology does. When I say that it corrects power factor, harmonics, etc. at the panel for all loads with and injection or extraction of current at the microsecond level, that is a fact. It is how our technology accomplishes everything that I am telling you.


Yes, you keep saying that and you have shown absolutely nothing. Do you understand the difference?
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #154 on: June 09, 2018, 09:39:09 pm »
Utter bollocks.

You haven't answered a single 'How?'

You sure as hell haven't answer my repeated question: what is the patentable invention behind your product? How does the invention work? It must say in the patent description but is suitably obfuscated. What is the patented apparatus and what is the patented method? Don't say your product. Your product isn't the patented article. How, in technical detail - not fluffy words that describe what it enables - does the damn thing do what your competitor products cannot? Jeez - it's a simple bloody question.


"How does this car work?" "It uses fuel and moves." "Oh, that's genius. Have a patent."
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 09:41:24 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #155 on: June 09, 2018, 09:43:29 pm »

You are still missing the point of what our technology does. When I say that it corrects power factor, harmonics, etc. at the panel for all loads with and injection or extraction of current at the microsecond level, that is a fact. It is how our technology accomplishes everything that I am telling you.


Yes, you keep saying that and you have shown absolutely nothing. Do you understand the difference?

Utter bollocks.

You haven't answered a single 'How?'

You sure as hell haven't answer my repeated question: what is the patentable invention behind your product? How does it work? It must say in the patent description but is suitably obfuscated. How, in technical detail - not fluffy words that describe what it enables - does the damn thing do what your competitor products cannot? Jeez - it's a simple bloody question.


"How does this car work?" "It uses fuel and moves." "Oh, that's genius. Have a patent."

Boy you guys really are stubborn aren't you.

F-L-A-S-H   E-N-E-R-G-Y   S-T-O-R-A-G-E    S-Y-S-T-E-M

I posted the vimeo with a ton of videos.

 :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #156 on: June 09, 2018, 09:57:07 pm »
You just don't get it, do you?

HOW?

Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #157 on: June 09, 2018, 09:58:21 pm »
You just don't get it, do you?

HOW?



 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.


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Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #158 on: June 09, 2018, 10:12:09 pm »
Quote from: cdoerfler

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.

Ok, this is progress!

The thing is, capacitors and inductors also provide capacitance and inductance -- and cheaply!

But they are fixed. So, if the load is changing, there is some advantage to being able to change the inductance and capacitance of some parallel circuit.

Believe it or not, people here get that.

What we (or I) am discounting is the benefit of microseconds response. Imagine for a moment different inductor/capacitor networks I could update once a year, once a week, once a day, once an hour, once a minute, once a second, once a cycle, 100x/ cycle.

With each successively more adaptable system you can arguably pick up more efficiency. Now, how MUCH additional residual efficiency does each step of flexibility pick up?

You are suggesting that subcycle adaptability is Very Important, and I and others are saying: bullshit, show us.

And you have shown NOTHING.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #159 on: June 09, 2018, 10:17:34 pm »
Quote from: cdoerfler

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.

Ok, this is progress!

The thing is, capacitors and inductors also provide capacitance and inductance -- and cheaply!

But they are fixed. So, if the load is changing, there is some advantage to being able to change the inductance and capacitance of some parallel circuit.

Believe it or not, people here get that.

What we (or I) am discounting is the benefit of microseconds response. Imagine for a moment different inductor/capacitor networks I could update once a year, once a week, once a day, once an hour, once a minute, once a second, once a cycle, 100x/ cycle.

With each successively more adaptable system you can arguably pick up more efficiency. Now, how MUCH additional residual efficiency does each step of flexibility pick up?

You are suggesting that subcycle adaptability is Very Important, and I and others are saying: bullshit, show us.

And you have shown NOTHING.

Okay, outside of the dynamic mitigation of harmonics for an entire power network, microsecond maintenance of unity power factor for an entire power network, and automatic phase balancing for an entire power network all simultaneously in an easy to read engineering user interface showing the momentary alterations and the historical tracked power quality over 600 seconds compiled into a half dozen videos on vimeo, one that even walks you through the whole thing in a painfully monotonous tone, I sincerely do not know what else I could show you.
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Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #160 on: June 09, 2018, 10:28:10 pm »
Quote from: cdoerfler

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.

Ok, this is progress!

The thing is, capacitors and inductors also provide capacitance and inductance -- and cheaply!

But they are fixed. So, if the load is changing, there is some advantage to being able to change the inductance and capacitance of some parallel circuit.

Believe it or not, people here get that.

What we (or I) am discounting is the benefit of microseconds response. Imagine for a moment different inductor/capacitor networks I could update once a year, once a week, once a day, once an hour, once a minute, once a second, once a cycle, 100x/ cycle.

With each successively more adaptable system you can arguably pick up more efficiency. Now, how MUCH additional residual efficiency does each step of flexibility pick up?

You are suggesting that subcycle adaptability is Very Important, and I and others are saying: bullshit, show us.

And you have shown NOTHING.

Okay, outside of the dynamic mitigation of harmonics for an entire power network, microsecond maintenance of unity power factor for an entire power network, and automatic phase balancing for an entire power network all simultaneously in an easy to read engineering user interface showing the momentary alterations and the historical tracked power quality over 600 seconds compiled into a half dozen videos on vimeo, one that even walks you through the whole thing in a painfully monotonous tone, I sincerely do not know what else I could show you.

You could show, quantitatively, what this buys you. Your could show, quantitatively, how much energy is lost in some example scenarios without your equipment, and then how much is gained back with a "dumb" network, or a pfc network that adjusts slowly, and then how much more is gained back by your system. It would also be interesting to show where in the system those losses occur and how much they are mitigated by your equipment.

I'd also like to see some data about available losses in common scenarios. Everyone here gets that a building with a 0.5pf aggregate load is a problem. But what are typical aggregate load power factors in homes, offices, data centers, etc?
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #161 on: June 09, 2018, 11:21:56 pm »
You just don't get it, do you?

HOW?



 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.

That, in itself, is not patentable, is it? Isn't it obvious to do that?

If so, it seems like your patent claim is around the timescale that you do it. That, in itself, is not patentable. There must be a specific electronic means by which you do it? How?

Could someone build a similar device that operates at tens of uA/us or hundreds or mA/ms etc and not infringe your patent?

Is it the specific electronics that is the invention and it enables fast operation? i.e., fast operation isn't the invention. If it is the electronics then what is the non-obvious aspect?

A patent would typically say something like (don't take this as technically accurate):

Prior power supply conditioning devices uses a combination of capacitance and inductance to change the current. Such devices change the current on a timescale of seconds. This is results in inefficient whatever. There is an unmet industrial need to increase the efficiency of the power supply conditioning process. This invention allows the current to be changed on a timescale of microseconds. One advantage is that the amount of current required to be injected is much lower than for prior devices. The invention consists of a novel whatever circuit that performs some novel thing.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 11:30:37 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #162 on: June 09, 2018, 11:25:46 pm »
You just don't get it, do you?

HOW?



 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The power network needs some inductance, it supplies it, capacitance, it supplies it.

That, in itself, is not patentable, is it? Isn't it obvious to do that?

If so, it seems like your patent claim is around the timescale that you do it. That, in itself, is not patentable. There must be a specific electronic means by which you do it? How?

Could someone build a similar device that operates at tens of uA/us or hundreds or mS/mA etc and not infringe your patent?

Is it the specific electronics that is the invention and it enables fast operation? i.e., fast operation isn't the invention. If it is the electronics then what is the non-obvious aspect?


The mechanism which to do this in parallel.
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #163 on: June 09, 2018, 11:31:12 pm »
I modified my comment.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #164 on: June 09, 2018, 11:33:05 pm »
Forget it, Jake. It's Scammertown.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2018, 12:03:43 am »
The few superficial terms we've heard aren't very helpful. It's like the sales assistant of a car dealership telling us that the car has a steering wheel, four wheels and a motor.
More like “feel how soft the seats are”
And “just think how your friends will envy you!”
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2018, 12:23:04 am »
From the Popular Mechanics article:
Quote
This required 3DFS to invent software that can sample 295 million data points per second—50,000 times faster than any measuring technology currently used.
So... nobody else measures stuff sampled faster than 5900 samples per second? Let’s not mention CD a/d conversion at 44100 way back in 1980.

Right.

Edit -> sorry, that’s numbers and measurements. Doesn’t have a place in this discussion.  :palm:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 12:25:18 am by Circlotron »
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2018, 02:05:40 am »
I notice the post of which I took this partial screenshot has been removed.  No apology; no explanation.
... but I found this absolutely priceless....



Curious how I was inspired to do that (as was another member).  My inspiration came from experience.  All too often we have people who get embarrassed by something they posted and remove it, which leaves subsequent references flapping in the breeze.  Quoting and/or screenshots preserves such material as it is outside the control of those who felt embarrassed ... and that just highlights their insecurity.

It is not a good reflection on the confidence in the technology being touted.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2018, 02:41:19 am »
Those who leave embarrassing posts and admit it are more trustworthy. Once you get a reply it's to late (or at least put an edit note).

I've had some half asleep incomplete non-english sentences answered as legit questions and came back and was like "what worse, what I posted or that you attempted to answer it?" ???

That video could have also been removed by the host (although they likely don't care) or perhaps someone else with access trying to hide it as well. :horse:
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2018, 02:58:56 am »
I'm surprised he didn't have the nous (Brit. Eng.) to check what he had just posted. Well, may be I'm not.

I always check my post immediately especially if I have linked to pictures/videos and/or attached images. I sometimes have to rotate them on my PC and reattach. Probably something to do with the way my 2012 Windows Phone tags them :)
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2018, 07:00:16 am »
"Automatic phase balancing".

Now this does sound very promising, and is something that my employer would be prepared to pay for.

Can you give more information on this please? How do you achieve phase balancing purely from the supply side, without controlling the demands of each load?
 

Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2018, 10:03:06 am »
Maybe I got it wrong but what I've learned from this thread is that 3DFS is selling a buzzword box without any proper datasheet. Seems to be a more sophisticated version of the Batterizer.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2018, 10:47:13 am »
"Automatic phase balancing".

Now this does sound very promising, and is something that my employer would be prepared to pay for.

Can you give more information on this please? How do you achieve phase balancing purely from the supply side, without controlling the demands of each load?

The is also an advantage of the computing. The box pulls power equally on all three phases from the upstream transformer and then redistributes it at the panel for perfect distribution among the phases.

There are quite a few benefits of this, one being the zeroing of the neutral current.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2018, 10:50:17 am »
Those who leave embarrassing posts and admit it are more trustworthy. Once you get a reply it's to late (or at least put an edit note).

I've had some half asleep incomplete non-english sentences answered as legit questions and came back and was like "what worse, what I posted or that you attempted to answer it?" ???

That video could have also been removed by the host (although they likely don't care) or perhaps someone else with access trying to hide it as well. :horse:

You jokers leapt on that as quickly as you could. It just shows how insecure you all are.

 I posted the vimeo link as a link and that popped up because of this forum. So I reposted the exact same link as text instead.

Did you see the videos?
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Online ArthurDent

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2018, 04:22:02 pm »
I was so impressed by the evidence presented here and in the videos by 3DFS that I went to their website (shown below) and ordered one of each of their products to install. Their products have worked so well that I'm saving so much and have increased my efficiency so much that I'm now selling the power company's power back to them and making a profit!

https://www.3dfs.com/products-tmp
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #175 on: June 10, 2018, 06:03:12 pm »
I was so impressed by the evidence presented here and in the videos by 3DFS that I went to their website (shown below) and ordered one of each of their products to install. Their products have worked so well that I'm saving so much and have increased my efficiency so much that I'm now selling the power company's power back to them and making a profit!

https://www.3dfs.com/products-tmp

Dangit Arthur Dent, you blew the fuse in my sarcasm meter! :-BROKE
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Offline kony

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #176 on: June 10, 2018, 07:21:27 pm »
The only time I met someone with this level of self-perceived grandeur and spewing comparable buzzword salad was an engineer with schizophrenia outbreak. It too was completelly genuine from his side, and he too was totally unable to support anything he says from other standpoint than self-referencing his own made up terms, or industry terms used in balantly wrong context, and appeals to his precieved authority over the subject due to hyperinflated ego. There still were some signs of logic or at least structure to the thinking patterns, but unfortunatelly for him the logic had passed trough figurative meat grinder, making arbitary, quite often contradictory connections in the process. He had choosen to believe and not question anything he says or thinks, and there was nothing that would change his mind, especially not logical reasoning of others.

There was no harm intended, nor it was involved trolling attempt - it simply was the only way he was able to see the world in given moment from his perspective.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 07:33:13 pm by kony »
 
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Offline Delta

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #177 on: June 10, 2018, 09:41:37 pm »
"Automatic phase balancing".

Now this does sound very promising, and is something that my employer would be prepared to pay for.

Can you give more information on this please? How do you achieve phase balancing purely from the supply side, without controlling the demands of each load?

The is also an advantage of the computing. The box pulls power equally on all three phases from the upstream transformer and then redistributes it at the panel for perfect distribution among the phases.

There are quite a few benefits of this, one being the zeroing of the neutral current.

That is a massive advantage!  :-+

If I have a 415v 3-phase star connected distribution transformer, feeding a distribution board, and to the DB I have four units connected, each unit has a 415v 3-phase motor (~6.6kW) connected Delta across L1-L2-L3, and ~1kW of 240v single-phase ancillaries connected across L1-Neutral, are you saying that one of your boxes in the DB can present a balanced 3-phase load to the transformer?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2018, 10:10:37 pm »
@Delta
The videos showing it working look OK to me, a lot less :bullshit: than in here.  vimeo.com / 3dfs

Meanwhile, I think I've figured it.

The Flash Gordon Technology simply connects to the Flux Capacitor, which then inductively inputs and outputs through the Turbo Encabulator (at the micro-second level), thereby supplying clean perfect power to all loads simultaneously, and in parallel Universes. While the Googletron Data Processor continuously uploads tomorrow's history data into yesterday's Fog Cloud in Real Time.
This obviously increases power grid transmission efficiency by more than 285%, all power generation can be turned off, which in turn further reduces transformer hum and transmission losses to 0%.

Its quite simple really.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 10:12:23 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Klod

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2018, 12:59:34 am »
"Automatic phase balancing".

Now this does sound very promising, and is something that my employer would be prepared to pay for.

Can you give more information on this please? How do you achieve phase balancing purely from the supply side, without controlling the demands of each load?

The is also an advantage of the computing. The box pulls power equally on all three phases from the upstream transformer and then redistributes it at the panel for perfect distribution among the phases.

There are quite a few benefits of this, one being the zeroing of the neutral current.

I think I'm missing something here.  Won't drawing more power to balance the phases increase my bill? 

 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2018, 01:58:48 am »
Not an EE but insults the EE crowds here that they're not smart enough to understand it.
...

It is a well recognized illness called MPS.

Meredith Perry Syndrome...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 02:06:06 am by Mr.B »
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2018, 05:16:54 am »
If I have a 415v 3-phase star connected distribution transformer, feeding a distribution board, and to the DB I have four units connected, each unit has a 415v 3-phase motor (~6.6kW) connected Delta across L1-L2-L3, and ~1kW of 240v single-phase ancillaries connected across L1-Neutral, are you saying that one of your boxes in the DB can present a balanced 3-phase load to the transformer?

If I read these correctly, it would seem so:     (Screen shots from https://vimeo.com/144432455)

System Off:


System On:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 05:18:26 am by Brumby »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2018, 01:13:28 pm »
"Automatic phase balancing".

Now this does sound very promising, and is something that my employer would be prepared to pay for.

Can you give more information on this please? How do you achieve phase balancing purely from the supply side, without controlling the demands of each load?

The is also an advantage of the computing. The box pulls power equally on all three phases from the upstream transformer and then redistributes it at the panel for perfect distribution among the phases.

There are quite a few benefits of this, one being the zeroing of the neutral current.

That is a massive advantage!  :-+

If I have a 415v 3-phase star connected distribution transformer, feeding a distribution board, and to the DB I have four units connected, each unit has a 415v 3-phase motor (~6.6kW) connected Delta across L1-L2-L3, and ~1kW of 240v single-phase ancillaries connected across L1-Neutral, are you saying that one of your boxes in the DB can present a balanced 3-phase load to the transformer?


Yes. The attached images show the basics. Obviously your situation is different, but the hardware will do this.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline niladherbert

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2018, 02:22:28 pm »
This is the competitive product for harmonics, double them if you want power factor too.  :-DD

Its not even close. No products today use Real-Time computing, it is all guesses. Do you see the difference? Understand yet? |O

The way you disrupt this industry is the way we are doing it. If it is uncomfortable, it is because you are standing on the wrong side of a landslide fault.

The future of electricity goes through this technology.  :box:
Wow, you need a crane to install a fridge!

Quote
No, I am saying that this is too advanced for everybody here, otherwise they would have invented it.
Or maybe you are solving a problem we don't have. Power supplies have to be designed to operate in really sub-optimal conditions anyway (Think 1950s diesel generator- puts out a few extra volts)
Quote
Modern day power networks are a joke. Cascading failures, brown outs, insane voltage deviation, etc. These are all symptoms of an uncontrolled power network, plain and simple.
Power off maybe 2 hours over the whole year, maybe I'll get an UPS for the Wifi and security cameras. Also, how do we know that the failure mode of your equipment isn't 1000VAC output, frying our TVs?
Quote
3DFS Technology is embedded into power networks and measures and adjusts the electricity to precisely match the ideal demand of all loads in the network simultaneously at the microsecond level. That is our unique function.
Oooh, I'll embed a little blue box in my power network, which I will have to go to their manufacturer every time it needs fixed, leaving me without power until it is fixed, and then discover it's gone, having sold me a (now broken) blue box, with no schematic or code to attempt a repair. Someone give one of these to a guy who has some HV equipment to fry it with.
Quote
"Guests are treated to a vision of our energy future while served bottled water both chilled and room temperature. Overall, this is an excellent place to bring your entrepreneur investor friends."

I will be sure to come get me some bottled water (chilled) if I am ever in your neighbourhood and it's a warm day.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2018, 05:11:31 pm »
For whatever reason, I did the plunge and, because there were no remotely comprehensible printed marketing materials, I watched the videos. What I saw is a little bit interesting: a box that does what appear to be three things:

  • improve power quality (defined as voltage stabilization and the reduction of noise and harmonics)
  • correct power factor
  • balance loads on a three phase system

Why Doerfler couldn't just say those three things is beyond me, but whatever.

Now, I can definitely imagine niche situations where those capabilities are useful, but I do think they are niche.

Generally, if you have a PQ problem, you want to root cause the problem and find the offending equipment and fix it. In most cases, that will be a better plan than installing some magic box. But I can imagine a situation, perhaps, where a neighbor that perhaps you share a transformer secondary with has equipment injecting crap into your lines, and you are stuck. So, okay. However, this is not an efficiency story, it is a story about a quality problem so bad it is causing your facility harm. Uncommon.

PF can also be an issue, if you have a lot of really low PF loads. You may pay for VARs, or you may feel like you are being forced to own maintain higher VA-rated transformers than your W load would imply, so improving PF is a win. No doubt, improving a bad PF with a large load can reduce currents and save energy in wiring and transformers. OK. But I also suspect really bad PF is uncommon today, and when you have it, it is from large fixed loads that can be addressed with cheaper static solutions. The 3DFS solution adjusts dynamically, but I think there have to be diminishing returns. If a capacitor bank gets you from 0.5 to 0.85 +/- 0.05, there's not much to be gained by getting to 1.0. But something. So, if you have a very bad pf, dynamic load, fine, useful.

Finally, the load balancing to all three legs of a 3 phase system. Certainly, load balancing can be a problem, and rewiring your facility to fix it is not always possible, especially if you have some very large single-phase loads. So, balancing loads might save you a transformer upgrade if you are near the VA limit on one leg and the others have capacity to spare.

Taken together, these are useful capabilities, and there are situations where each of them can help, and I can see some additive benefits. (For example, pf and load balancing together can work together to keep all legs of your transformer within their VA rating, letting you put off an upgrade for longer.)

All that said, assuming the videos aren't faked somehow and the product actually works, their marketing is atrocious. It has several serious problems:

  • so vague, full of made-up or incorrectly applied terms that it actively repels knowledgeable people and appears extra scammy
  • it makes claims regarding efficiency improvements that are dubious at best. No data is provided. I think major efficiency gains can really only be made in situations that are pretty borked to start with -- uncommon
  • they make a lot of vague claims about improving the efficiency of the whole power system end-to-end which do not make much sense. Your PQ, PF, and balancing problems sort of get averaged into oblivion when aggregated to transmission system levels. (Though unbalancing on the distribution system is a bit of a thorn on power companies' sides, I'm told.)
  • it makes weird claims about PQ and its impact on computing hardware that just aren't right. As others have pointed out, PSUs driving IT equipment can and do manage a wide range of power variation Just Fine, and if your power is so dirty it is causing hiccups in your data center, you have bigger problems.
  • all the nonsense about nanoseconds, the microsecond level. Beyond the three capabilities listed above, so what? How does this contribute value?

So, my assessment:

  • product is not completely ridiculous
  • marketing pitch is completely ridiculous. At best, you might say it is aimed at investors rather than customers
  • actual applications and benefits are narrow
  • digital electricity is not going to revolutionize anything



 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2018, 08:19:49 pm »
For whatever reason, I did the plunge and, because there were no remotely comprehensible printed marketing materials, I watched the videos. What I saw is a little bit interesting: a box that does what appear to be three things:

  • improve power quality (defined as voltage stabilization and the reduction of noise and harmonics)
  • correct power factor
  • balance loads on a three phase system

Why Doerfler couldn't just say those three things is beyond me, but whatever.

Now, I can definitely imagine niche situations where those capabilities are useful, but I do think they are niche.

Generally, if you have a PQ problem, you want to root cause the problem and find the offending equipment and fix it. In most cases, that will be a better plan than installing some magic box. But I can imagine a situation, perhaps, where a neighbor that perhaps you share a transformer secondary with has equipment injecting crap into your lines, and you are stuck. So, okay. However, this is not an efficiency story, it is a story about a quality problem so bad it is causing your facility harm. Uncommon.

PF can also be an issue, if you have a lot of really low PF loads. You may pay for VARs, or you may feel like you are being forced to own maintain higher VA-rated transformers than your W load would imply, so improving PF is a win. No doubt, improving a bad PF with a large load can reduce currents and save energy in wiring and transformers. OK. But I also suspect really bad PF is uncommon today, and when you have it, it is from large fixed loads that can be addressed with cheaper static solutions. The 3DFS solution adjusts dynamically, but I think there have to be diminishing returns. If a capacitor bank gets you from 0.5 to 0.85 +/- 0.05, there's not much to be gained by getting to 1.0. But something. So, if you have a very bad pf, dynamic load, fine, useful.

Finally, the load balancing to all three legs of a 3 phase system. Certainly, load balancing can be a problem, and rewiring your facility to fix it is not always possible, especially if you have some very large single-phase loads. So, balancing loads might save you a transformer upgrade if you are near the VA limit on one leg and the others have capacity to spare.

Taken together, these are useful capabilities, and there are situations where each of them can help, and I can see some additive benefits. (For example, pf and load balancing together can work together to keep all legs of your transformer within their VA rating, letting you put off an upgrade for longer.)

All that said, assuming the videos aren't faked somehow and the product actually works, their marketing is atrocious. It has several serious problems:

  • so vague, full of made-up or incorrectly applied terms that it actively repels knowledgeable people and appears extra scammy
  • it makes claims regarding efficiency improvements that are dubious at best. No data is provided. I think major efficiency gains can really only be made in situations that are pretty borked to start with -- uncommon
  • they make a lot of vague claims about improving the efficiency of the whole power system end-to-end which do not make much sense. Your PQ, PF, and balancing problems sort of get averaged into oblivion when aggregated to transmission system levels. (Though unbalancing on the distribution system is a bit of a thorn on power companies' sides, I'm told.)
  • it makes weird claims about PQ and its impact on computing hardware that just aren't right. As others have pointed out, PSUs driving IT equipment can and do manage a wide range of power variation Just Fine, and if your power is so dirty it is causing hiccups in your data center, you have bigger problems.
  • all the nonsense about nanoseconds, the microsecond level. Beyond the three capabilities listed above, so what? How does this contribute value?

So, my assessment:

  • product is not completely ridiculous
  • marketing pitch is completely ridiculous. At best, you might say it is aimed at investors rather than customers
  • actual applications and benefits are narrow
  • digital electricity is not going to revolutionize anything


I am pretty sure that I mentioned all of these. Our Power Quality Rating (PQR) is a metric that encompasses all three in determining the overall electrical energy efficiency of a power network.

Where you are MISSING so much is in your recitation of inaccurate facts.

You state "If a capacitor bank gets you from 0.5 to 0.85 +/- 0.05, there's not much to be gained by getting to 1.0."

But a capacitor does not get you to 0.85. In fact you have no way of knowing where a capacitor gets you because the tools that you are using to measure are not reporting the in the moment value for the power factor.

In those videos, look at the power factor on each phase and how wildly it fluctuates. How is a static capacitor supposed to dynamically manage all of that? Impossible.

Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

I appreciate that you have come around to recognizing that the technology is "not completely ridiculous" but I still have some work to do to get you realize the transformative effect.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2018, 09:14:24 pm »
I am pretty sure that I mentioned all of these. Our Power Quality Rating (PQR) is a metric that encompasses all three in determining the overall electrical energy efficiency of a power network.

If you want to promote a new metric, you need to describe it exactly (mathematically) so people know exactly what it is you are measuring. Furthermore, if you want people to take it seriously, you need to show (this word is appearing a lot in notes to you. I hope you are picking up on that.) that the metric captures something useful that other metrics do not.

You state "If a capacitor bank gets you from 0.5 to 0.85 +/- 0.05, there's not much to be gained by getting to 1.0."

But a capacitor does not get you to 0.85. In fact you have no way of knowing where a capacitor gets you because the tools that you are using to measure are not reporting the in the moment value for the power factor.

You found a load whose power factor varies significantly over reasonably short time periods. How common is that? I actually have more than a hunch about that answer, because I have worked on the engineering side of some very large data centers. I would say the onus is on you to show that widely varying power factor on significant loads is a common problem.

Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces

"electrical energy forces" are not a thing.

are properly managed in Real-Time,

Why are we now capitalizing "real-time". Do you even know what real-time means?

many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

Not "seemingly." Let me state here in no uncertain terms: this is complete and utter bullshit. A data center experiencing packet loss in transmission between equipment would investigate that problem link(s) and fix them. If power quality were driving such problems, they would a) have to be massive and b) could easily be identified and fixed.

As an amateur radio operator, I'm quite sensitive to the implications of noise on power lines and would love to see technology that would make it stop. But unfortunately, your technology would do little to reduce the noise on other people's lines, the source of most hash in my receivers. In any case, people track down and diagnose RF interference all the time. Most equipment that does RF is designed to work in less than ideal conditions.

I appreciate that you have come around to recognizing that the technology is "not completely ridiculous" but I still have some work to do to get you realize the transformative effect.

Probably going to be deaf ears. Most people on this thread have already moved on, because they correctly put you in the right bin. You had a pretty good chance to make your case and frankly, you blew it, by trying to convince a roomful of electrical engineers that they do not understand electricity.

Your company seems eerily analogous to the "Batteriser" discussed in other threads on this forum: technically, it does what it says, but is actually useful in a surprisingly narrow set of circumstances.

 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #187 on: June 11, 2018, 09:26:34 pm »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

The speed of light, and the speed of electricity in a cable, gets in the way of some of your claims. They're fun to read though!
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #188 on: June 11, 2018, 09:42:17 pm »
Not "seemingly." Let me state here in no uncertain terms: this is complete and utter bullshit. A data center experiencing packet loss in transmission between equipment would investigate that problem link(s) and fix them. If power quality were driving such problems, they would a) have to be massive and b) could easily be identified and fixed.

As an amateur radio operator, I'm quite sensitive to the implications of noise on power lines and would love to see technology that would make it stop. But unfortunately, your technology would do little to reduce the noise on other people's lines, the source of most hash in my receivers. In any case, people track down and diagnose RF interference all the time. Most equipment that does RF is designed to work in less than ideal conditions.

This can easily be demonstrated. I have run standard off the shelf computer power supplies off a nasty cheap generator that produces a hideously ugly voltage waveform and as you might expect, the output was nice clean DC. This is what any good power supply does, you can give it nasty noisy ugly looking power and it turns it into clean DC, and it shouldn't run appreciably hotter than it does from perfectly nice clean power. If the output is the same, and the power supply doesn't get hotter, then where is all this supposed waste energy going? If the output is clean DC then how the heck is noise on the line side going to affect the performance of the equipment? How does my computer know that the line voltage is noisy when all it sees is the DC out of the power supply?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #189 on: June 11, 2018, 11:25:06 pm »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

The speed of light, and the speed of electricity in a cable, gets in the way of some of your claims. They're fun to read though!

Actually that is what makes our technology incredible, although the speed of light has nothing to do with it.  :palm:
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #190 on: June 12, 2018, 12:37:50 am »
Actually that is what makes our technology incredible, although the speed of light has nothing to do with it.  :palm:

Hmmm. Perhaps not the best choice of word :)

It reminds me of my chemistry teacher in response to saying something like, "The rate of reaction is incredibly fast." He'd say, "Really? Well I can believe it."
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2018, 12:46:25 am »
Actually that is what makes our technology incredible, although the speed of light has nothing to do with it.  :palm:

Hmmm. Perhaps not the best choice of word :)

It reminds me of my chemistry teacher in response to saying something like, "The rate of reaction is incredibly fast." He'd say, "Really? Well I can believe it."

 ;D That is funny. I bet your chemistry teacher and mine would get along.

The speed at which we are computing at the efficiency it is being done is nothing short of amazing. We are processing 26 channels in 24bit resolution at MHz frequencies. It is literally processing terabytes of data every minute at the expense of a max of 120W of power.

Think about the advantage that provides.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #192 on: June 12, 2018, 12:57:42 am »
The speed at which we are computing at the efficiency it is being done is nothing short of amazing. We are processing 26 channels in 24bit resolution at MHz frequencies. It is literally processing terabytes of data every minute at the expense of a max of 120W of power.

Think about the advantage that provides.


It's not all that difficult to capture loads of channels of data at high speed using an FPGA driving a load of suitably fast ADCs. That isn't really useful information though, nobody buys a black box to "process data", they buy it to solve a problem that they have. What after a lot of marketing jargon and technobabble is still not the least bit clear is precisely what problem this device is meant to solve, because it is easily demonstrated that dirty power, while not really desirable, is generally not something that affects computers and related equipment.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #193 on: June 12, 2018, 01:04:37 am »
"24bit resolution"   :-DD

#89 has always been a favorite of mine, perhaps it's just something in the heat of battle, it's short, but makes no sense at all to me.

"When you are correcting electricity in Real-Time, you do not need a lot of power. That is the point."

and more at:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1597045/#msg1597045
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #194 on: June 12, 2018, 01:05:22 am »
The speed at which we are computing at the efficiency it is being done is nothing short of amazing. We are processing 26 channels in 24bit resolution at MHz frequencies. It is literally processing terabytes of data every minute at the expense of a max of 120W of power.

Think about the advantage that provides.


It's not all that difficult to capture loads of channels of data at high speed using an FPGA driving a load of suitably fast ADCs. That isn't really useful information though, nobody buys a black box to "process data", they buy it to solve a problem that they have. What after a lot of marketing jargon and technobabble is still not the least bit clear is precisely what problem this device is meant to solve, because it is easily demonstrated that dirty power, while not really desirable, is generally not something that affects computers and related equipment.

First of all, if you attempt to acquire this amount of data using ADCs, you will start a fire.

Second, the purpose is synchronized electricity and nobody here knows what perfect power quality does because it has never been experienced. I keep reading about how putting line filters and isolation transformers is the same thing.. :palm:  Just like the waves of people who defended the typewriter I guess...

Saying that dirty power does not affect computers and related equipment is like saying dirty oil does not affect my engine performance. It is just a bald faced ignorant statement to make.

That is what is funny about this forum is that while my language may not be as crisp as you all would like, I am fucking right about all of this. You all need to think conceptually about what I am saying. But alas, you will read more about it in the forthcoming articles.

Perhaps in my biography "Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money"  :-DD



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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #195 on: June 12, 2018, 01:05:56 am »
Nearly 200 posts and things are clearing up.

Can I suggest something?

There was a good reason I kept prodding you about the novelty/patent etc. I knew there was something in it and I saw lots of incredulity from the many seasoned EEs here. That's one of the problems with patenting something - it's non-obvious. There needs to be a simple, technical explanation. Once that started coming through, I think it's fair to say the general feedback has swung in your favor.

In my experience, there are two types of people to win over: the technical people who understand why your product should be purchased over a competitor's and the people with the money. The latter care for the fluff words. e.g., "our car goes twice as fast!" whereas the former want to know how it goes fast". A simple 1-page flyer (or similar) that sticks to the simple, technical facts and practical benefits would help you get the buy-in of the technical folk. From what I've gleaned, "our technology samples the incoming power at MHz rates and in parallel. This allows us to detect and correct high frequency interference that competitor products cannot. Indeed, we own the patent rights to the technology and so noone else can manufacture equipment that offers the efficiency ours does." No fluff, short and clear (if I do say so myself :) )


EDIT: And leave out the "I'm fucking right about this".
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 01:15:25 am by JohnnyMalaria »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #196 on: June 12, 2018, 01:08:05 am »
"24bit resolution"   :-DD

#89 has always been a favorite of mine, perhaps it's just something in the heat of battle, it's short, but makes no sense at all to me.

"When you are correcting electricity in Real-Time, you do not need a lot of power. That is the point."

and more at:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1597045/#msg1597045

I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Online ArthurDent

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #197 on: June 12, 2018, 01:33:50 am »
From what I can glean from my limited knowledge, this meal seems to be all salad and no main course.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #198 on: June 12, 2018, 01:36:22 am »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

200 posts and we haven't even got to Voltage yet, that's what nearly all of us will mean by clean power, simply because a load can't even see another load's current.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Aspin

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #199 on: June 12, 2018, 01:57:35 am »
You know that Industrial UPS actual do this by the virtue of being a generator coupled to an electric motor.
ie all the energy is transferred on the shaft at which point phase will be balanced and most harmonics removed (as effectively very low frequency mechanical filter.
I always wondered about the efficiency of the arrangement but the bank I worked for seem to think its data center was more important that the electricity bills.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #200 on: June 12, 2018, 02:42:46 am »
Actually that is what makes our technology incredible, although the speed of light has nothing to do with it.  :palm:
incredible
ɪnˈkrɛdɪb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: incredible

    1.
    impossible to believe.
    "an almost incredible tale of triumph and tragedy"
    synonyms:   unbelievable, beyond belief, hard to believe, scarcely credible, unconvincing, far-fetched, strained, laboured, implausible, improbable, highly unlikely, not in the least likely, questionable, dubious, doubtful, inconceivable, unthinkable, unimaginable, impossible, astonishing, astounding, breathtaking, staggering, absurd, preposterous, phenomenal, extraordinary
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #201 on: June 12, 2018, 02:56:08 am »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #202 on: June 12, 2018, 04:48:12 am »
Saying that dirty power does not affect computers and related equipment is like saying dirty oil does not affect my engine performance. It is just a bald faced ignorant statement to make.


Bullshit. Oil breaks down over time and the filter becomes filled with physical particles of carbon and wear materials from the engine. A properly designed power supply will filter out any noise that would be typically found on a power line, electrical filters don't become clogged and electricity doesn't wear out over time. If you claim otherwise I'd like to see something to back this up. Take two identical off the shelf computer PSUs, connect one to a dirty power source and connect the other to your device. Show me a scope capture of the DC output of each power supply so I can see the substantially increased noise on the output of the power supply connected to the dirty source. Then at least I'll know not to buy that model of power supply because clearly it is poorly designed.

Surely you're not going to pull the audiophool card and claim there are are effects that will influence the equipment being powered that are not measurable with test equipment?
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #203 on: June 12, 2018, 05:41:11 am »
People who know what they are talking about are usually anxious to ensure that they are being understood by their peers.
Look at any lectures by really smart people like Richard Feynman or Sean Carroll. Those guys don't say "huhhuhuh, you peons are too dim to understand my advanced mind"

Like the well known expression goes, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother, you don't understand it yourself."

The ones who claim that nobody else is smart enough to understand their ideas, while using nonsensical words and phrases to "explain" themselves, are the delusional ones.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #204 on: June 12, 2018, 09:48:24 am »
People who know what they are talking about are usually anxious to ensure that they are being understood by their peers.
Look at any lectures by really smart people like Richard Feynman or Sean Carroll. Those guys don't say "huhhuhuh, you peons are too dim to understand my advanced mind"

Like the well known expression goes, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother, you don't understand it yourself."

The ones who claim that nobody else is smart enough to understand their ideas, while using nonsensical words and phrases to "explain" themselves, are the delusional ones.



"Anxious to ensure that they are being understood?" Why would I have anxiety in conveying a concept?

Plus, I do think it is funny that you are comparing this forum to a Richard Feynman audience, which is an interesting comparison re: delusional
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #205 on: June 12, 2018, 09:54:50 am »
Saying that dirty power does not affect computers and related equipment is like saying dirty oil does not affect my engine performance. It is just a bald faced ignorant statement to make.


Bullshit. Oil breaks down over time and the filter becomes filled with physical particles of carbon and wear materials from the engine. A properly designed power supply will filter out any noise that would be typically found on a power line, electrical filters don't become clogged and electricity doesn't wear out over time. If you claim otherwise I'd like to see something to back this up. Take two identical off the shelf computer PSUs, connect one to a dirty power source and connect the other to your device. Show me a scope capture of the DC output of each power supply so I can see the substantially increased noise on the output of the power supply connected to the dirty source. Then at least I'll know not to buy that model of power supply because clearly it is poorly designed.

Surely you're not going to pull the audiophool card and claim there are are effects that will influence the equipment being powered that are not measurable with test equipment?

Actually, it is directly measurable with test equipment. In fact, we encourage clients to put temperature and vibration sensors on transformers and power supplies respectively prior to installation in order to track the delta.

Another great benefit to this technology is going to be a consumer reports for circuit board design. We will be able to identify cheap bullshit electronics through the electrical signature and pattern of electricity consumption.

Regarding audio engineering, more than half an engineers time is spent filtering and cleaning up noise, nearly all of which can be prevented by eliminating harmonics and neutral currents in the power network, thereby allowing the engineer to focus on engineering instead of cleaning.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #206 on: June 12, 2018, 10:02:34 am »
You know that Industrial UPS actual do this by the virtue of being a generator coupled to an electric motor.
ie all the energy is transferred on the shaft at which point phase will be balanced and most harmonics removed (as effectively very low frequency mechanical filter.
I always wondered about the efficiency of the arrangement but the bank I worked for seem to think its data center was more important that the electricity bills.

This is absurd. In fact, this is directly related to those bullshit "Conversion Losses" that is perpetuated by your ilk.

For some "pedantic" engineers, there is just no critical thought on this area. You are saying that ALL of the energy is transferred to the shaft and then automatically balanced and harmonics removed?!!  Who the fuck is selling the pipe dream? Just naturally balanced and harmonics removed? So they just go away? Go home for dinner?

No.

The point of generation of electricity is when the electricity is at its WORST power quality. The power factor, harmonics and balance across the phases are absolutely and unequivocally their worst. So where do those losses go? I can assure you they do not just disappear.

They go back to the motor. They disrupt the rotation of the shaft. They increase the heat BTU per kWh. They increase the bearing and armature temperature, etc.

The quickest way to evacuate the electricity generated is synchronizing it so it remains electricity and does not destroy the infrastructure.

 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #207 on: June 12, 2018, 10:05:57 am »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

Total nonsense! Servers and network elements powered by AC have proper PSUs with active PFC and lot's of line filtering. To cause frame/packet errors the power quality would have to be so bad that the servers and network elements would have much worse problems than bad frames/packets. You also forget that several data centers use telco's classic -48V DC power. And the latest in data center power distribution and efficiency is HVDC.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #208 on: June 12, 2018, 10:10:34 am »
"Anxious to ensure that they are being understood?" Why would I have anxiety in conveying a concept?

You don't seem to care that no-one has any idea what you are talking about. To everyone here, your "tech talk" sounds like meaningless word salad, in the style of Depak Chopra or your friendly neighborhood crystal healer. Clearly your gadget does SOMETHING, just what that is, is unclear to everyone.

The fact that nobody understands you is not even slightly concerning to you?

R
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #209 on: June 12, 2018, 10:12:22 am »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.


 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny. The tech has the ability to inject/extract microamps in microseconds, but can inject more as needed. It is in parallel, so there is an endless supply of energy to use.

Also, you are not considering that the power is pulled from the upstream transformer already balanced, so there is not excess energy floating around anywhere, it is zero sum distribution.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2018, 10:14:32 am »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

Total nonsense! Servers and network elements powered by AC have proper PSUs with active PFC and lot's of line filtering. To cause frame/packet errors the power quality would have to be so bad that the servers and network elements would have much worse problems than bad frames/packets. You also forget that several data centers use telco's classic -48V DC power. And the latest in data center power distribution and efficiency is HVDC.

You seem so certain of something that you honestly have no way of knowing. Where does this confidence come from?
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2018, 10:37:45 am »
From designing, rolling out and operating carrier grade data centers. In case you haven't noticed yet, a lot of the members of this forum are EEs.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2018, 10:50:06 am »
From designing, rolling out and operating carrier grade data centers. In case you haven't noticed yet, a lot of the members of this forum are EEs.

Awesome, so is it the data center designing or the being an EE that precludes you from fact based assertions?

Nobody here has experienced digitally synchronized electricity, yet a barrage of folks are happy claiming that it is "not possible" or "defies physics" etc.

I laugh that you guys think that we could have been doing this for 8 years, with the pedigree of IP development that we have and think it is bullshit. But then again, once you experience it, those wide mouth belly laughs will quickly turn into slack jawed astonishment  :-DD
 
Since I empirically know that the packet error and retransmission rate will decrease, can you experts explain to me why it is impossible? There seems to be a disconnect in your understanding of electrical networks.

I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:


 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2018, 10:52:24 am »
And I am perfectly fine discussing voltage.

This technology digitally maintains voltage through the FESS. It is a part of the synchronization.

3DFS Technology can transform voltages with less than 2% loss. We have plans for a Software-Defined Transformer that will further transform the industry.
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #214 on: June 12, 2018, 10:56:27 am »

 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny.

Earlier you used an example of a rope swing needing just a tiny push at the right time to keep it going. This concept when related to electricity is like a crystal oscillator. It only needs a tiny trickle of power to keep it going. Problem is, AC in the infrastructure sense is more like the rope swing swinging through a tarpit. It needs significant power to keep it moving. Delicate little “microamp currents” will do absolutely nothing. It’s like claiming that you can stop a runaway train car if you tickle it with a feather at *just* the right time.

The only way I could see your claim working was if the microamp current corrections were applied to the input of your fancy ADC’s [emoji23]
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #215 on: June 12, 2018, 11:07:29 am »

 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny.

Earlier you used an example of a rope swing needing just a tiny push at the right time to keep it going. This concept when related to electricity is like a crystal oscillator. It only needs a tiny trickle of power to keep it going. Problem is, AC in the infrastructure sense is more like the rope swing swinging through a tarpit. It needs significant power to keep it moving. Delicate little “microamp currents” will do absolutely nothing. It’s like claiming that you can stop a runaway train car if you tickle it with a feather at *just* the right time.

The only way I could see your claim working was if the microamp current corrections were applied to the input of your fancy ADC’s [emoji23]

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?

Electricity distribution is most efficient when the laws of math and physics are properly applied. This is what this technology does.

Your suggestion that brute force energy supply is the way it works is a very early 1900's approach to electricity distribution and the reason for all the waste.

It is not about pushing as much power as possible. It is about intelligently supplying power.  :-//

 
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Offline Dubbie

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digital electricity
« Reply #216 on: June 12, 2018, 11:12:44 am »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. Your arrogance is breathtaking.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:22:54 am by Dubbie »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #217 on: June 12, 2018, 11:21:45 am »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. You arrogance is breathtaking.

I am simply meeting you guys eye to eye. The arrogance exhibited in this forum is quite exceptional in its own right.

How else can one equitably distribute current? It won't naturally happen. There must be a computing element to leverage this law.

Please explain to me the arrogance of this statement?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:26:05 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #218 on: June 12, 2018, 11:40:53 am »
I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:

For -48V DC powered routers, switches and optical transport? There are also huge battery banks for buffering, i.e. actually an online UPS. I think you're doing a disservice to 3DFS the way you are selling the technology. Very basic things like a proper datasheet are missing. This way nobody can take 3DFS seriously.  By keeping on this disastrous marketing there isn't any credibility left. And by insulting people you make it even worse. You might win a discussion, but you'll loose possible customers. Great job!
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #219 on: June 12, 2018, 11:55:39 am »
I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:

For -48V DC powered routers, switches and optical transport? There are also huge battery banks for buffering, i.e. actually an online UPS. I think you're doing a disservice to 3DFS the way you are selling the technology. Very basic things like a proper datasheet are missing. This way nobody can take 3DFS seriously.  By keeping on this disastrous marketing there isn't any credibility left. And by insulting people you make it even worse. You might win a discussion, but you'll loose possible customers. Great job!

Customers like results. We deliver that.

If you do not understand the technology, ask questions. Do not reject what I am saying, ask for clarification.

Proper data sheets are not missing, you don't understand them. There is a difference.

It is funny that I can be insulted and am not supposed to insult back, particularly on the "Dodgy Technology" forum.

Right there, where you state that battery banks is a solution to anything other than vandalizing batteries so that the downstream equipment is not destroyed is the problem. You are so rooted in the way things are done that it is clearly difficult for you to consider anything else.

That is not a solution, it is an expensive and temporary patch. Same with UPS. Same with surge protection.

Controlling electricity with digital accuracy in true Real-Time, radically changes what is possible and requires a significant shift in perspective that you have not had yet.
 

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #220 on: June 12, 2018, 12:03:32 pm »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. You arrogance is breathtaking.

I am simply meeting you guys eye to eye. The arrogance exhibited in this forum is quite exceptional in its own right.

How else can one equitably distribute current? It won't naturally happen. There must be a computing element to leverage this law.

Please explain to me the arrogance of this statement?

I really want to highlight this point because it is an important one.

It is impossible for Kirchoff's Law be leveraged in a power network without a computing element. This is where the microamps in microseconds becomes important.

This is a radically different approach to controlling electricity that does not fit what you are familiar with, although firmly fits into the laws of math and physics.





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Offline niladherbert

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #221 on: June 12, 2018, 01:15:29 pm »
Another great benefit to this technology is going to be a consumer reports for circuit board design. We will be able to identify cheap bullshit electronics through the electrical signature and pattern of electricity consumption.
What's the advantage in this? Identifying them doesn't mean that anyone wants to get rid of them.

Quote
Your suggestion that brute force energy supply is the way it works is a very early 1900's approach to electricity distribution and the reason for all the waste.
Don't you dare try to interfere with a very robust and easily repaired system. Electromechanicals are the way to go.

Quote
Proper data sheets are not missing, you don't understand them. There is a difference.
I am only finishing high school, and most data sheets are easily understandable if written by someone who is being honest about their product and understands the product
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2018, 01:30:24 pm »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.


 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny. The tech has the ability to inject/extract microamps in microseconds, but can inject more as needed. It is in parallel, so there is an endless supply of energy to use.

Also, you are not considering that the power is pulled from the upstream transformer already balanced, so there is not excess energy floating around anywhere, it is zero sum distribution.

Sigh.

I wish you could understand the point being made and address it - and from what I've seen, I'm not the only one.  Unfortunately, it seems patently obvious to me that we are trying to get engineering answers from a marketing person.

It's getting hard to see any value pursuing answers here.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2018, 02:01:13 pm »
Back in the late 90s myself and a number of others used to get on Usenet on /science/physics/electromagnetics and battle wits with this fellow named Archimedes Plutonium. He would espouse his theory of plutonium atom totality, ie the whole universe was one giant plutonium atom. I can see a strange kind of parallel in the style of arguments presented here.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #224 on: June 12, 2018, 02:03:03 pm »
Sadly, I have to agree. We even tried to help him, but he doesn't get it. Smart grid solutions are quite interesting but this thread is just a waste of time.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #225 on: June 12, 2018, 02:06:26 pm »
I really want to highlight this point because it is an important one.

It is impossible for Kirchoff's Law be leveraged in a power network without a computing element. This is where the microamps in microseconds becomes important.

This is a radically different approach to controlling electricity that does not fit what you are familiar with, although firmly fits into the laws of math and physics.

Kirchoff's Law worked 100% before computers, before it had a name, even before the the Earth was discovered.
You're posting total bullshit.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #226 on: June 12, 2018, 05:09:09 pm »
I really want to highlight this point because it is an important one.

It is impossible for Kirchoff's Law be leveraged in a power network without a computing element. This is where the microamps in microseconds becomes important.

This is a radically different approach to controlling electricity that does not fit what you are familiar with, although firmly fits into the laws of math and physics.

Kirchoff's Law worked 100% before computers, before it had a name, even before the the Earth was discovered.
You're posting total bullshit.

No shit.

But applying Kirchoff's law in technology has only been around since about 2010.
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Offline Delta

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #227 on: June 12, 2018, 07:52:17 pm »
You can't supply a microamp in a microsecond, nor can you supply 10amps in a minute.

That's not a thing.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #228 on: June 12, 2018, 08:16:21 pm »
You can't supply a microamp in a microsecond, nor can you supply 10amps in a minute.

That's not a thing.

Correction, YOU cannot supply a microamp in a microsecond.
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Offline Delta

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #229 on: June 12, 2018, 08:21:27 pm »
You can't supply a microamp in a microsecond, nor can you supply 10amps in a minute.

That's not a thing.

Correction, YOU cannot supply a microamp in a microsecond.

:palm:

Oh dear.  For a superstar inventor you don't seem to understand the concept of current.

Can you a water pump supply 5 gallons per minute in 34 seconds? (Or 2GPM in a hour etc)

:palm:

PS. I am developing a genetation system that can provide enough voltage for 50000 houses!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 08:24:09 pm by Delta »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #230 on: June 12, 2018, 08:28:53 pm »
You can't supply a microamp in a microsecond, nor can you supply 10amps in a minute.

That's not a thing.

Correction, YOU cannot supply a microamp in a microsecond.

:palm:

Oh dear.  For a superstar inventor you don't seem to understand the concept of current.

Can you a water pump supply 5 gallons per minute in 34 seconds? (Or 2GPM in a hour etc)

:palm:

PS. I am developing a genetation system that can provide enough voltage for 50000 houses!

What are you talking about. The gpm is a rate of flow, seconds is an amount of time.

3DFS technology can supply precision injections or extraction of current in the microamp range exactly when it needs to be injected each microsecond to synchronize electricity.

How is this a difficult concept?

Is it that you do not understand how this can bring power factor to unity, mitigate harmonics and balance phases for the entire panel? or Do you not understand how we can accomplish the microamp injection with such precision?

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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #231 on: June 12, 2018, 10:13:53 pm »
Is it that you do not understand how this can bring power factor to unity, mitigate harmonics and balance phases for the entire panel?

You are correct. Nobody understands this part. All this nonsense about microseconds is not explaining this aspect.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #232 on: June 12, 2018, 11:05:03 pm »
Is it that you do not understand how this can bring power factor to unity, mitigate harmonics and balance phases for the entire panel?

You are correct. Nobody understands this part. All this nonsense about microseconds is not explaining this aspect.

I see, so is the contention if the FESS can correct power factor, harmonics, phase balancing at the panel level? or The benefits from doing it this way are not as substantial as I am suggesting?
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #233 on: June 12, 2018, 11:31:30 pm »
Stop changing the subject. You haven’t explained how it does it. It computes the changes required, that much you have told us ad-nauseum.

Then what? How does it effect the changes required to alter the power flowing through the distr board?

I can compute the forces required to stop the earth spinning and start it going the other way. Because I have these numbers doesn’t mean I can actually do it.
 

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #234 on: June 12, 2018, 11:40:16 pm »
Is it that you do not understand how this can bring power factor to unity, mitigate harmonics and balance phases for the entire panel?

You are correct. Nobody understands this part. All this nonsense about microseconds is not explaining this aspect.

I see, so is the contention if the FESS can correct power factor, harmonics, phase balancing at the panel level? or The benefits from doing it this way are not as substantial as I am suggesting?

Sure dude, whatever FESS able to do even makes us immortal or makes the owner filthy rich by owning it, its not our priviledge to understand, according to you.

Yes, all of us here are so retarded that no one in this electonics specific forum, especially in the "Dodgy Tech" section, will able to understand it.

But we got 3DFS message loud and clear, just stop questioning or stop asking whats it all about, just bring the money, then we will live happily ever after.

We got it.  :-DD

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #235 on: June 13, 2018, 12:02:09 am »
Stop changing the subject. You haven’t explained how it does it. It computes the changes required, that much you have told us ad-nauseum.

Then what? How does it effect the changes required to alter the power flowing through the distr board?

I can compute the forces required to stop the earth spinning and start it going the other way. Because I have these numbers doesn’t mean I can actually do it.

There is a source of impedance and a source of capacitance in the box that can charge/discharge microamps.

Based on the computing an adjustment is made to the power (injected through the voltage connection {fuse}) every microsecond.

That adjustment is the precise amount to 1. bring power factor of the entire panel to unity 2. bring the harmonics under 2% 3. balance the phases.

This adjustment is being performed individually on each phase.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #236 on: June 13, 2018, 12:07:55 am »
Seems that "microcoulombs per microsecond" would be physically meaningful since that is current and, presumably, is achievable via capacitor discharge(?)

Anyway, I'm done. Does anyone know how to stop a post showing up in "Show new replies to your posts."? This has become too distracting, frustrating and pointless.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #237 on: June 13, 2018, 12:22:01 am »
I wonder who 3DFS are speaking to before posting now.  :)

Of course, this balancing of the 3 phases to the us and uA level, needs the 3 clip-on 300A current transformers to be accurate to the us and uA level. :o
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:26:50 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #238 on: June 13, 2018, 12:30:57 am »
I wonder who 3DFS are speaking to before posting now.  :)

Orthon, probably, or someone from the  Unarius Academy of Science. Well, it worked for George Adamski...
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #239 on: June 13, 2018, 01:01:28 am »
Anyway, I'm done. Does anyone know how to stop a post showing up in "Show new replies to your posts."? This has become too distracting, frustrating and pointless.

Go to 'Show unread posts since last visit'
On the far right hand side, check the checkbox next to the thread.
Click on the 'IGNORE TOPICS' button, top right.
Time is the overseer of all things.
 
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #240 on: June 13, 2018, 02:30:11 am »
I don't see any checkboxes?
Or Ignore Topics button...

What am I missing?

 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #241 on: June 13, 2018, 02:36:34 am »
You need to go to 'Show unread posts since last visit'
Although your capture looks like it is, so I don't know..
Mine looks like this.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 02:39:36 am by Mr.B »
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #242 on: June 13, 2018, 02:38:47 am »
Well! seems I have a different forum view to you guys... not sure why..

How did you get that dark theme for a start?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 02:52:24 am by Dubbie »
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #243 on: June 13, 2018, 02:43:38 am »
Wow.. this thread just keeps on giving.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #244 on: June 13, 2018, 03:20:15 am »
... but we're fast approaching "giving up".


Actually, I think we've arrived.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #245 on: June 13, 2018, 03:39:44 am »
Well! seems I have a different forum view to you guys... not sure why..

How did you get that dark theme for a start?

Same here, that's bizarre, mine looks exactly like that other screenshot, it's lighter gray and I've looked all over for a checkbox.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #246 on: June 13, 2018, 03:42:20 am »
I have the dark forum now (installed the stylish theme), but still no checkbox.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #247 on: June 13, 2018, 03:48:19 am »
Sorry - I created another rabbit hole. :o  :palm: I can't see any checkboxes either (tried multiple browsers).
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #248 on: June 13, 2018, 04:05:35 am »
Found it.

Go into your profile.
Hover over ‘Modify Profile’
Select ‘Look and Layout’
Scroll to the bottom.
Set ‘Show quick-moderation as’ to ‘checkboxes’.
Time is the overseer of all things.
 
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #249 on: June 13, 2018, 04:14:12 am »
Great! that did it.

This thread had some use after all.

Thanks!
 

Online ArthurDent

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #250 on:</