Author Topic: digital electricity  (Read 29231 times)

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Offline thefinisher

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digital electricity
« on: June 06, 2018, 06:23:25 am »
Is  digital electricity a thing now ?  I saw this video on a company named  3DFS (https://3dfs.com/)  that  claims they can save you 70%  power on the electric  grid  is this  true. This  product claims to analysis the input power and  in real time clean up all the harmonics and distortions and  create a perfect  sin wave out put.  it seems to me  it  really claiming to be a power factor correction device but  savings look  over blown.  another video
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 07:01:01 am »
You don't even need to watch the video to know that a claim of 70% savings is pure platinum plated bulls--t and any device that claims to provide it is pure snake oil.

Start with the Laws of Thermodynamics which tell you that energy cant be created from nothing, and that all lost energy must eventually end up as waste heat.

Therefore that claimed 70% saving must mean that on average, your electrical appliances have an efficiency below 30%.   However most modern PSUs have efficiency over 80%, and air heating appliances  can have efficiencies up to 100% - as the 'waste' heat is the desired result, so unless you have a house full of valve amps or similar there isn't enough lost energy 'on the table' to get anywhere near a 70% saving. 

Then there's the results of waveform distortion on efficiency.  The most common waveform distortion - 'flat topping' caused by SMPSUs without power factor correction (PFC) drawing all their current at the peaks of the mains waveform actually increases the efficiency of other SMPSUs as it widens the effective peak so decreases I2R losses in the wiring, input filter and bridge rectifier feeding the input side DC bus, and in the PFC circuit if present.  Therefore claims of general efficiency savings by improving power quality have a fishy smell to start with - like last weeks fish guts left out in the sun!

When all's said and done if you could magically clean up the mains waveform without loosing any energy, I'd be *extremely* surprised to see even a 1% improvement in efficiency, and if the device actually does anything, it will be subject to the same constraints on losses as any other electrical or electronic device, so its likely that its losses will be a few percent of the load on it, wiping out any potential saving immediately.

Its true that way back in the day,many industrial and large commercial power users could make large savings by installing power factor correction capacitors, as traditionally commercial and industrial loads were typically largely inductive (think big motors and choke ballasted fluorescent lighting), and the tarrifs they were on often penalised power factors that were too low (excessive VAR) but nowadays there are very few inductive domestic loads that run for longer than a few minutes, and to meet national energy efficiency targets, most inductive loads will already have power factor correction components internally fitted.  Also domestic metering only measures real power, it doesn't measure VAR, so as you aren't on a tarrif + metering that penalises peak VAR the only saving to the user is reduced I2R losses in the wiring between the power factor correction device and the meter.  All I2R losses upstream of the meter come out of the power company's operating overheads so savings in the distribution network wont save the end users a single cent (though they'll probably make shareholders happy).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:06:06 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline niladherbert

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 02:45:50 pm »
The company is really selling a nice way of cleaning up your power into a perfect sine wave, while claiming all sorts of things about it, but it would give marginal gains in efficiency (like the capacitor in a box teardown). The cub on the video needs an education on AC and DC, P=IV and V=IR. He also needs told that only as much current as the device needs to consume is drawn. He really hasn't done his research on how the grid is controlled though.
Just read that article. Here's a real gold nugget: “Smart meters are a few hundred bucks because they do not have processors inside them". I don't see how they can help on reasonably well built DC power regulation within normal electronics like they're talking about at the end though. And they're 'Not in it for the money as much as the improvements to society'
 

Online JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 03:39:20 pm »
Look at the size of the two fans on that thing. They'd barely fit in the microwave. Must generate a lot of heat trying to stop your appliances generating heat.  :-// :palm: :scared: :bullshit:
 

Online JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 04:51:39 pm »
This device consumes a maximum of 120Watts of power all time. Those fans only turn on when the device must prevent a lightning surge from entering the panel.

Aren't lightning surges very short (<0.5ms)? How can the fans possible come on that fast and do anything to help?

Do you have a full technical specification sheet? Your website is very vague about power draw etc.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 06:34:06 pm »
 :popcorn:
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 08:31:08 pm »
There's plenty of more 'info' out there, if anyone needs a laugh.

www.you  tube.com/watch?v=2m5nJ1gkOHI
www.you  tube.com/watch?v=8x4r8-OoFG4
www.you  tube.com/watch?v=omkc6MkS17U
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 08:32:56 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 10:06:09 pm »
As Clara Clayton said to Doc Emmet Brown, “I’ve heard some whoppers I’m my time...”
 

Online JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 11:23:22 pm »
So, if I understand it, your device monitors the phase difference between the voltage and the current at any given moment and this can change either due to the grid or an appliance (esp. high power) causing it.

How can your device introduce a phase difference between what's coming in to the panel and what's going to the appliances etc at high load (30A say) with such small wires? Otherwise won't the phase difference in the building simply be the same as what's coming in?

To change the phase requires energy. Using P = VI cos(phase) and let's say the undesirable phase is -10deg then the power will change from VI cos(-10deg) to VI cos(0) which is about VI x 0.02. 30A equates to 115V x 30A = 3.45kW. 0.02 of that is 69W. So, assuming 100% efficiency, somewhere you have to find 69W of energy or dissipate it (can't think that through right now) but you spec says that the idle power consumption is 90W or so and the max is 120W. That's only 30W difference and I'm sure it isn't 100% efficient. So how are you changing the phase?


And a phase shift of 10deg (the range of your device) only creates a loss of 2% power which wouldn't be that significant in a house as far as the bill is concerned. How quickly would someone break even with the cost of the device and the utility bill saving?

I'm missing something.


 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 11:24:46 pm »
I thought everyone knew that we're all moving over to the new Natively Digital Format square wave electricity now, it's much more convenient, efficient and safer than the now old fashioned analogue sine wave AC.

www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works
www.voltserver.com
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Online JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 12:11:49 am »
So every device is optimized independently?
 

Offline thefinisher

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 12:14:02 am »
That what was my thinking that it was doing some form of power fact correction at best but using a form of intelligent microcontroller to regulate and adjust the phase difference between the voltage and the current. I did not think any microcontroller would be fast enough to do this in real time to make this phase changes and harmonic adjustment in real time.
 

Online JohnnyMalaria

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2018, 12:15:31 am »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2018, 12:18:27 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.
 

Offline Euler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2018, 12:19:50 am »
I thought everyone knew that we're all moving over to the new Natively Digital Format square wave electricity now, it's much more convenient, efficient and safer than the now old fashioned analogue sine wave AC.

www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works
www.voltserver.com

Seriously StillTryin, Do really you not know the difference between AC and DC ???  You clearly have not been burdened by an overabundance of education.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:21:25 am by Euler »
 

Offline thefinisher

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2018, 01:40:22 am »
I have some  questions about the technology how does it harmonic cause energy lost what is the mathematics behind this
 
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Offline Euler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2018, 02:03:24 am »
The best way I think of it...  harmonics are generated by ac/dc conversion as you "grab" power from the top and bottom of the sinus, more inverters mo harmonics.... they are bad for many reasons namely creating heat in wires this happens because current moves to the outer radius of a wire in some proportion to the amount and types of harmonic distortion (THD) thus increasing resistance of that wire mo resistance mo heat, for 120 years the status quo is removing heat with filters (ie transformers) that are wound with wire... I guess that seems to be be part of the equation?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2018, 02:14:21 am »
I'm afraid my  :bullshit: is totally  :-BROKE
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2018, 04:10:59 am »
The result is the power network impedance is always matched to the Real-Time need of the collective power consumption of all the loads.

When the impedance is automatically matched, every load in the panel receives the precise, perfect power that it demands immediately reducing energy consumption and improving the device performance.
If the power network impedance matches the load impedance then these will each dissipate 50% of the total power.  Not a recipe for energy saving. You want the supply impedance to be as low as possible.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2018, 04:43:48 am »
Most machines run on DC internally and self regulate. Noisy power will not cause "poor data transfer between servers" and crap, there's no way good equipment is susceptable to that unless it's like the ghettos of India where it's spaghetti power lines. The only thing it would directly effect maybe is AC motors, but there are VFDs now that eliminate those problems by creating a localized AC source.

Plus, big factories use passive PF correction with coils and condensors/capacitors (some people still call big caps condensors), without the need for some silly little computer that pisses away 120W. ::)

EDIT: Active PF correction is also already a major thing. You've just invented a hilariously snake oily form of automatic PF corrector.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 04:50:19 am by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 09:29:24 am »
Seriously?

You walk into a forum frequented by Electrical Engineers and like-minded people with some engineering ideas in the electrical spectrum and don't like the fact that everybody doesn't roll over and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.  Then you accuse us of trolling?

The simple fact of the matter is that what you are promoting has some serious snake oil aspects about it - and we aren't about to let that slide.  Most of us have a much better understanding of the subject than the general public and there are many here who have industry experience that can critically assess your claims - with more than enough expertise to do so.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:35:32 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 09:35:45 am »
If your product is seriously capable of what you are claiming, then harden up, deal with the cynicism and answer your critics.

If you don't, then you are either a wuss and/or a charlatan.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2018, 10:04:51 am »
Why would it matter anyway? At least in the US, residential customers are not billed based on power factor, so while a perfect unity power factor is desirable and will result in a very slight reduction in cable losses, it's not something that is going to have a measurable effect on the bill.

We also pay just for the effective power, but some industrial customers have to pay for apparent power to motivate them to keep the reactive power low.

In case you haven't noticed, the post starting this thread is the OP's very first post. And just after the first reply there's someone seemingly from 3DFS. What a coincidence! >:D

 
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2018, 03:45:30 pm »
A friend (a journalist) just sent me the Vox piece to comment on and honestly, I was flabbergasted. How did the Vox folks (who are serious journalists) get so taken in? The piece is practically breathless.

I mean, there might even be something there, but if there is, you definitely cannot figure out what it would be from the description.

I mean, if a data center has a power factor problem, then fine, condensers are your friend, not some box of magic computers. If you have a power quality problem, then, maybe some filter is appropriate. (And I define problem as power quality bad enough to drive reliability problems, not just some noise on the AC). I don't even see how power quality can drive efficiency? Are they talking about losses from current spikes from noise? WTF? Show me some data that implies that can be anything other than de minimis.

So weird.
 

Offline transmatrix

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2018, 04:04:22 pm »
I found this forum via the Vox article (Really wish that Vox had comments...)

I'm an Electrical Engineer in the field of Power Quality. This is just your standard "black box" energy savings device. It's snake oil. Really surprised that Vox got suckered into this one. Hey Vox, if a EE professor hangs up on you, it's because you're insulting his intelligence...
 


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