Author Topic: Directional Grain Speaker wires?  (Read 4085 times)

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Offline Randy222

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2025, 02:57:31 am »
Special wire is no different than special waveguide design for 50GHz+.

The topic of speaker wire, flat, folded, O free, braided, twisted, has been a 20yr debate on AVSforum.

I pretty much still use lamp cord for speakers.
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2025, 03:03:35 am »
I pretty much still use lamp cord for speakers.

I should be so lucky to use lamp cord.
My current setup uses clear "zip cord" that's probably 24 gauge. Pretty wimpy.
(Not my choice; it's what I had on hand.)
Setup sounds great. I might have to crank the volume up a millimeter or two compared to lamp cord.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2025, 03:17:42 am »
I think I have 18 AWG lamp cord.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #103 on: December 03, 2025, 03:38:28 am »
Setup sounds great. I might have to crank the volume up a millimeter or two compared to lamp cord.

yes the extra millimeter is needed to compensate for the ratio of the smaller volume of copper in the speaker wires relative to the weight of the sound amplitude.
 :popcorn:
 

Offline Randy222

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2025, 04:28:07 am »
Fancy copper cables for speakers, is about the same as a Indy race team spending the extra money to make the wheel weight 3 grams less. Yep, it can accelerate and decelerate faster (less rotational mass), yet to the final outcome it's probably 99.9999% meaningless.

The basic test for me would be, create the speaker setup and lab style microphones in whatever room you like, run the same program with lamp cord and the special wire, you show me where the lab microphones to scope (or whatever analyzer) shows the diff. If you cannot show a meaningful diff in that setup then all you have is snakeoil.
 

Offline Electrodynamic

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2025, 07:34:02 am »
Fancy copper cables for speakers, is about the same as a Indy race team spending the extra money to make the wheel weight 3 grams less. Yep, it can accelerate and decelerate faster (less rotational mass), yet to the final outcome it's probably 99.9999% meaningless.

The basic test for me would be, create the speaker setup and lab style microphones in whatever room you like, run the same program with lamp cord and the special wire, you show me where the lab microphones to scope (or whatever analyzer) shows the diff. If you cannot show a meaningful diff in that setup then all you have is snakeoil.

I find this conversation kind of weird.

What your talking about is Ohm's Law and the lower the resistance the greater the energy transfer and efficiency. It may not matter on a puny walmart stereo but for larger systems pushing many hundreds or thousands of watts long distances it obviously matters.

It sounds like your claiming Ohm's Law is meaningless which sounds a little woo woo.

In any case the professionals who actually build stereo systems would disagree.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-3sPaHfdZCqP/learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2025, 09:03:31 am »
What your talking about is Ohm's Law and the lower the resistance the greater the energy transfer and efficiency. It may not matter on a puny walmart stereo but for larger systems pushing many hundreds or thousands of watts long distances it obviously matters.

Look; nobody's talking about breaking Ohm's Law here, so you can put your badge and gun away.
And yes, you're correct: for a high-powered system of hundreds/thousands of watts, speaker-wire gauge definitely matters.
But for my system, for example? Technics SU-V6X amp (100W/channel). Never turned up to 10.
Guess what? Speaker wire gauge makes no fucking audible difference in the sound quality.
 
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Offline Randy222

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2025, 11:26:04 pm »


I find this conversation kind of weird.

What your talking about is Ohm's Law and the lower the resistance the greater the energy transfer and efficiency. It may not matter on a puny walmart stereo but for larger systems pushing many hundreds or thousands of watts long distances it obviously matters.

It sounds like your claiming Ohm's Law is meaningless which sounds a little woo woo.

In any case the professionals who actually build stereo systems would disagree.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-3sPaHfdZCqP/learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html

but 18ga wire can carry 10,000 watts no problem.
 

Offline CyclotronTopic starter

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2025, 06:32:19 am »
I've recently been repairing a few radios and doing some general cleaning and tuning.

Given that there is obviously a market for "questionable" audio improvement technology, I think the same consumers can be convinced that their audio equipment needs a good sonic bath to clean the PC boards.

No matter the brand or age (so far), all of them are covered in nasty, sticky flux and varying degrees of dust and lint. The truth is, PCB/audio cleaning services might make the equipment perform better.

And someone needs to make a good RCA female jack cleaner. I've seen one 3d printed thing but haven't tried it.
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2025, 06:36:26 am »
And someone needs to make a good RCA female jack cleaner. I've seen one 3d printed thing but haven't tried it.

You mean like a rag and a Q-tip?

Dunno why RCAs get such a bad rap: I likes 'em.
Sure, they're not BNCs or XLRs or DINs or any of them other fancy-schmancy connectors, but for audio equipment that's not constantly unplugged and replugged they work fine.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2025, 09:40:36 am »
And someone needs to make a good RCA female jack cleaner. I've seen one 3d printed thing but haven't tried it.

You mean like a rag and a Q-tip?

Dunno why RCAs get such a bad rap: I likes 'em.
Sure, they're not BNCs or XLRs or DINs or any of them other fancy-schmancy connectors, but for audio equipment that's not constantly unplugged and replugged they work fine.
For what it's worth -- and bearing in mind that I don't have particularly strong feelings on it -- RCA jacks have two bad characteristics. One is that the signal connects before ground, which is not great for hot-plugging. The other, the one that's more annoying, is the poor quality of so many jacks and plugs, resulting in inconsistent, sometimes extremely high, mating forces. I prefer connector designs that don't rely on the contact force for plug retention, and which provide some kind of positive feedback of full insertion (like a click or detent).

(I'm not a big fan of classic DIN connectors, either. Though those are now going the way of the dodo, with the last manufacturer of high-quality DIN connectors, Hirschmann, having discontinued them in 2024. BNC and XLR -- as well as the bayonet- or thread-locking DIN derivatives -- are much better designs. But even better designs exist than those, IMHO. Things like LEMO connectors, or recent military circular connector designs, both of which I wish were not prohibitively expensive.)
 

Online NF6X

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2025, 06:24:43 pm »
I learned something new today. I was not aware that there was ever a manufacturer of high quality DIN connectors.
 

Offline MisterHeadache

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2025, 10:44:01 pm »
And someone needs to make a good RCA female jack cleaner. I've seen one 3d printed thing but haven't tried it.

You mean like a rag and a Q-tip?

Dunno why RCAs get such a bad rap: I likes 'em.
Sure, they're not BNCs or XLRs or DINs or any of them other fancy-schmancy connectors, but for audio equipment that's not constantly unplugged and replugged they work fine.

I likes 'em, too.  A few years ago I built my version of Wes Hayward's 70MHz spectrum analyzer.  It has close to a dozen interconnect cables using RG316.  Rather than use SMA connectors, I used RCA phono plugs and jacks.  There's an article on his web site showing how to robustly connect them to RG316.  Worked great.
https://w7zoi.net/rca_plugs-sockets.pdf
Daryn 'MisterHeadache'
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2025, 10:52:57 pm »
Quote
I was not aware that there was ever a manufacturer of high quality DIN connectors.
switchcraft is my goto if i have to use the little buggers.
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2025, 11:05:44 pm »
A few years ago I built my version of Wes Hayward's 70MHz spectrum analyzer.  It has close to a dozen interconnect cables using RG316.  Rather than use SMA connectors, I used RCA phono plugs and jacks.  There's an article on his web site showing how to robustly connect them to RG316.  Worked great.
https://w7zoi.net/rca_plugs-sockets.pdf

Thanks, nice li'l tip in that article.

Back when All Electronics was still around (a pity they went under), I bought some BNC to RCA adapters from them, pretty inexpensive:



Nice way to make quick 'scope interconnects. I'll have to cobble up one of those RCA plug to coax connections.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2025, 07:13:36 pm »
I said this in another thread, but be warned about RCA cables. They are not built like normal coax. The reason some of them have such good feel/bend parameters is because they are non-braided. So you have a single layer of thin wires (somewhat circularly distributed) in the extruder along with your center wire. It seems to have a much better flexibility because of this, but poor shield coverage. If you make it with rg coax then this problem is eliminated of course, but you don't get what most people want RCA for, which is the great usability it has.


Would be interesting to see someone do tests on this sort of wire for shielding vs tight braid lab coax.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2025, 07:16:16 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2025, 09:53:32 pm »
I've tried "RCA cables" (i.e., audio cables with RCA plugs) on my 'scope.
They suck. Totally wrong impedance.
That tip posted above uses proper cable (RG188) with RCA plugs.
I'm gonna try that.
Hell, might work OK with "regular" coax (RG58 or some such).
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2025, 10:04:19 pm »
Pre-made cables using 75 ohm RG coax and RCA connectors are common for video applications.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2025, 09:09:49 pm »
I said this in another thread, but be warned about RCA cables. They are not built like normal coax. The reason some of them have such good feel/bend parameters is because they are non-braided. So you have a single layer of thin wires (somewhat circularly distributed) in the extruder along with your center wire. It seems to have a much better flexibility because of this, but poor shield coverage. If you make it with rg coax then this problem is eliminated of course, but you don't get what most people want RCA for, which is the great usability it has.


Would be interesting to see someone do tests on this sort of wire for shielding vs tight braid lab coax.
Indeed, spiral shielding is not as good as braided. (Though just being braided isn’t enough; it needs to be good, tight braiding).

However, I do not agree at all that spiral vs braided is in any way the primary factor in flexibility. The stranding of the center conductor is a big factor, but far more important are the materials of the dielectric (inner insulator) and jacket (outer insulator).

For example, if we look at RG-174 coax, it has a polyethylene dielectric and PVC jacket over a basic braided shield. The shallow angle of the braiding makes it not as flexible as others (more on this later), but above all, the PVC itself is THE difference. At work I have two reels of RG-174, one from Huber+Suhner (a super premium Swiss manufacturer), and one from Tasker (an Italian manufacturer). The one from Tasker is super stiff,  while the Huber+Suhner is flexible and lovely. If I remove the jacket, they have practically identical flexibility, so it really is the stiff PVC jacket alone that makes the Tasker so stiff. The Huber+Suhner RG-174 is more flexible than most RCA audio cables.

I also have a box of Huber+Suhner double-shielded RG-316. It’s very similar to RG-174 in overall dimensions, but with PTFE dielectric and FEP jacket. Despite having two braided shields, it is only the stiff FEP jacket that makes the cable stiff. If I strip off the jacket, it’s super flexible.

That cable uses very tight braids at close to 45 degree angles, which makes them very flexible.



Stäubli makes a variant of RG-58 that uses a silicone dielectric and jacket, and a finely stranded conductor. I finally got around to ordering some and it is absolutely lovely. By far the most flexible coaxial cable I’ve ever touched. The downsides are that it’s expensive, and that it’s 45 ohm instead of 50 ohm.


As an aside, I have made the observation that modern cables of all types seem to be largely significantly stiffer than older ones. I am often surprised at how soft, for example, the power cords on many old devices are. (I have a box full of old oscilloscope probes and it’s striking how much softer their cables are than any modern probes.) I don’t have any concrete explanation, but my suspicion is that it’s some combination of cost-cutting and of modern regulations about phthalate plasticizers, etc.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2025, 09:29:44 pm »
I learned something new today. I was not aware that there was ever a manufacturer of high quality DIN connectors.
OK, I should actually be more precise. Hirschmann was the last company I know of that made good quality “basic” DIN connectors (plastic backshell, etc). Other manufacturers, like Switchcraft and Deltron, still make some pretty nice metal-shell ones, though they don’t make all the styles. They also cost a lot more than the plastic Hirschmann ones did.

I’ve been looking to see how I can modify Amphenol C 091 B (plastic or metal body, plastic backshell, with plastic bayonet) plugs to lose the bayonet so I can use them to repair devices with plain DIN plugs. The C 091 B are very nice quality, and they come in crimp versions, too.
 

Offline Randy222

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Re: Directional Grain Speaker wires?
« Reply #120 on: Yesterday at 06:02:00 pm »
The debate really needs to separate sound quality from power.

Power is a delivery issue. Low volts needs fat wire. Hi volts needs not so fat wire.

When it comes to sound quality, please define the test. My/your ears, or in-lab test gear?

We can use both tests. Lab gear will show improvements (or at least it should) when a maker says there sheet is better than the rest. Lab gear test means dump power into dummy load (hence no sound) and connect electrical probes to the signal to record it.

But the ear test is dominant for most, can I hear the diff. I know of some really good high dynamics mic stuff (fast, wideband, high SPL), each element is around $1500-2000(US). Make your sound test setup (source, amps, speakers) in perhaps anechoic chamber. Connect wire set-A and make your digi recording, do same for wire set-B, then compare the recordings. The mic/recorder is my "ear". Show me how much better the fancy cables are, and include the prices for both sets of test cables.

I already know the outcome, hence why I still use basic wire, lamp cord or something similar.
https://www.amazon.com/InstallGear-Gauge-Speaker-Wire-Oxygen-Free/dp/B079VJXN1Z
 


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