Author Topic: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products  (Read 1488 times)

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Offline Halcyon

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Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« on: December 25, 2018, 03:50:48 am »
I received a gaming device as a gift and the packaging had this little disclaimer:

Due to the characteristics of the LCD, there are some dots that do not light up or that never turn off, however, please note that it is not a defect.

I beg to differ, dead or bright pixels (regardless of quantity) are most certainly a defect within the LCD. Obviously the manufacturer are trying to excuse themselves of warranty returns, especially from people don't know any better.
 

Offline tsman

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 04:03:51 am »
Dead pixels are annoying but basically everybody has a clause in their warranty terms regarding how many and what type of pixel defect is considered acceptable on each device :-// If you don't exceed that limit then getting it swapped out under warranty might be difficult. If you're still in the return period then just returning the entire device for refund is going to be a better option there.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 05:18:03 am »
Dead pixels are annoying but basically everybody has a clause in their warranty terms regarding how many and what type of pixel defect is considered acceptable on each device :-// If you don't exceed that limit then getting it swapped out under warranty might be difficult. If you're still in the return period then just returning the entire device for refund is going to be a better option there.

These types of clauses go against Australian consumer law. A dead/bright pixel would be considered at least a minor failure and would need to be remedied, regardless of what the manufacturer warranty claims. I've had at least one phone and a computer monitor or two replaced under Australian Consumer Law because of pixel faults.

Would you buy a new display at full price knowing it had a dead pixel?
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 05:36:09 am »
These types of clauses go against Australian consumer law. A dead/bright pixel would be considered at least a minor failure and would need to be remedied, regardless of what the manufacturer warranty claims. I've had at least one phone and a computer monitor or two replaced under Australian Consumer Law because of pixel faults.

Would you buy a new display at full price knowing it had a dead pixel?

Maybe not. Many countries have a sensible regulation on dead pixels. I believe the US says 3, China also says 3, depending on location on the panel.
That's why some manufacturers offer extra premium product lines that guarantees no stuck pixels.
But rarely do anyone guarantees no dead (black) pixels. It's just too hard.

FYI, my Surface go underwent 2 exchanges to get a perfect screen, and my X1 Carbon G6 underwent one screen swap and one whole unit swap to get the perfect screen.
So it's basically a 1/3 possibility, that's why nobody guarantees no dead pixel. I got mines exchanged under hassle free 14-day return.
I would expect if I exceeded that limit, and I went to them for a dead pixel, they would just tell me to fuck off.
 

Offline Whales

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 05:55:38 am »
Due to the characteristics of the LCD, there are some dots that do not light up or that never turn off, however, please note that it is not a defect.

On a second level: was this inside the packaging or on the outside?  If you can't read it before buying then it's on even shakier ground.

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 06:13:15 am »
Due to the characteristics of the LCD, there are some dots that do not light up or that never turn off, however, please note that it is not a defect.

On a second level: was this inside the packaging or on the outside?  If you can't read it before buying then it's on even shakier ground.

It was on the outside. Even still, its basically like saying Apple's bending of iPhones/iPads aren't a defect, they are a "characteristic" of the device.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 06:23:55 am »
LCDs even have grade depending on how uniform backlight is and amount of dead pixels. Even though it's the same LCD model, expensive stuff likely will get highest grade but cheap stuff will not. AFAIK every manufacturer has a clause how many bright and dark pixels are acceptable. Higher resolutions allow more dead pixels.
https://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/04/campaigns/dell-premium-panel-guarantee
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 06:31:20 am »
Shoot, even the $ 10 LCD TV set I got from the one local China Mall outlet was defect free on the LCD, no stuck pixels at all. I can see stuck pixels on a bigger screen being a thing, but for a game device with a small LCD display there is no reason, other than trying to reduce cost by using reject screens, for them to have any stuck pixels or dead ones. Not too hard QC wise on small screen units to have 100% QC checking on the LCD itself during manufacture, and weeding out those that have any faults. As the start material is a really big pane of glass, defects are going to be there, but cut it into small pieces and even a plate of glass with 100 defects will give a really good yield.
 

Offline tsman

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 02:05:37 pm »
These types of clauses go against Australian consumer law. A dead/bright pixel would be considered at least a minor failure and would need to be remedied, regardless of what the manufacturer warranty claims. I've had at least one phone and a computer monitor or two replaced under Australian Consumer Law because of pixel faults.
I don't think it does go against the ACL. The ACL only states that it be "acceptable quality" which means "the goods must be safe, lasting, have no faults, look acceptable and do all the things someone would normally expect them to do". If the manufacturer considers a certain number of dead pixels to be acceptable due to manufacturing variance and it is an industry wide practise then it will be considered normal and not a fault. You ultimately have to appeal to the manufacturer as you have for your replacements or take it to court if they refuse. The ACL by itself doesn't force them to do it.

Returning it for a refund is still your best option to get a replacement with no visible dead pixel.
 

Offline tsman

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2018, 02:10:20 pm »
As the start material is a really big pane of glass, defects are going to be there, but cut it into small pieces and even a plate of glass with 100 defects will give a really good yield.
It isn't just defects in the glass substrate that cause dead pixels. Any flaws in the transistors for each pixel will also cause issues. Your LCD panel is getting smaller but so are the pixels themselves.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2018, 03:01:17 pm »
I once spoke to someone at HP before I ordered a screen in 2006 about dead pixels. I was told that if it was linked to price so they would sell the same screen 2/3 cheap or so depending on amount of dead pixels.  I found a store that guaranteed no more than 1 dead pixels black or white and I still got it to today working with no dead pixels and I did spend quite a lot money on it. It a HP LP2065 and I brought a job lot of them as they were going for £30 each about 5 years later. The bezel is a bit scatched on some but I see no dead pixels on them.

I have noticed them more on glossy screens than matt.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 01:29:16 am »
These types of clauses go against Australian consumer law. A dead/bright pixel would be considered at least a minor failure and would need to be remedied, regardless of what the manufacturer warranty claims. I've had at least one phone and a computer monitor or two replaced under Australian Consumer Law because of pixel faults.
I don't think it does go against the ACL. The ACL only states that it be "acceptable quality" which means "the goods must be safe, lasting, have no faults, look acceptable and do all the things someone would normally expect them to do". If the manufacturer considers a certain number of dead pixels to be acceptable due to manufacturing variance and it is an industry wide practise then it will be considered normal and not a fault. You ultimately have to appeal to the manufacturer as you have for your replacements or take it to court if they refuse. The ACL by itself doesn't force them to do it.

There are a number of different parts to ACL which could be enacted in the case of dead pixels:

As you mentioned, "acceptable quality" includes being without fault -- Dead or stuck pixels is a fault of the LCD, regardless if the manufacturer thinks otherwise. If I go shopping for an LCD monitor or TV, I expect every pixel to function as intended. I'd be pretty annoyed if there was a bright pixel or two right in the middle of my display. Products must also "match any demonstration model or sample you asked for". If the floor model had dodgy pixels, then I knew what I was getting myself in for.

It's also not up to the manufacturer to determine what is "acceptable", that's ultimately up to a court to decide based on what a "reasonable person" would think. If I went and bought a monitor for $50, it's probably reasonable to accept that it will have quality issues or minor faults. However if I go and spend hundreds or thousands on a good quality product, it wouldn't be acceptable.

Also, if a retailer or manufacturer sold a product at a discounted price because of the fault and you were made aware of it, then ACL doesn't apply. I think any reasonable person would expect a brand new LCD off-the-shelf to be completely free of defects otherwise a replacement/refund is in order.

Manufacturers build the cost of returns (whether under ACL or not) into their products based on a pre-determined failure rate.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 04:59:40 am »
I remember early TFT displays almost always had at least a couple of dead pixels but I haven't had anything with a dead pixel in well over a decade now, I thought that was a thing of the past. Even the $5 color TFT screens I got from China have 100% perfect pixels.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 09:25:26 am »
I can't stand dead pixels. If I see them I cannot forget as I see the whole screen. If one appeared on a monitor that I use all the time I'd put it aside for something that I only need a couple for seconds or minutes in a couple of days.

I use to order many laptop screens years ago from a particular seller on Ebay. Some of my customers tell me that they don't want dead pixels but I don't want to bother sending it back. I paid the seller £5 to test and find one and guarantee no dead pixels and package it in a certain way knowing what can happen in the post. I did have one with a dead pixel and they sent another out the next day and I they provided me a returns form.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Dodgy LCDs in Consumer Products
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 04:21:53 pm »
Last 10+ years I bought at least 4 TFT computer displays, several laptops, not a single time I had dead pixels (but that's the first think I look for after purchase). I thought dead pixels is a thing of the past... I don't consider it normal in 2019 a device to have dead pixels unless it sold with a good discount.

On some screens there is some brightness variation between pixels, but I can only notice this only if looking way too close to the screen.
 


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