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Ecology vs Disposable Electronic Cigarette

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SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 02, 2024, 02:41:51 am ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 31, 2024, 09:06:42 pm ---Far from it, and and it's not just about raw efficiency either: I explicitely mentioned the batteries, which currently still suck and are certainly not the end of the story.
But even the rest is far from having ideal efficiency if you look closely at the whole chain.

Again, my point is: do the maths, don't act with emotion and beliefs.

--- End quote ---
Aren't EVs something like 80-90% efficient, as opposed to state of the art gas engines that top out around 40% before considering other losses? I'm sure a lot can be improved on the resources needed to manufacture a new car, but that's irrelevant for a car that's already been in use for many years.

--- End quote ---

Of course not. That's about the efficiency of its main parts separately, as AVGresponding just said above, but of course not the whole chain as I said.
Just start with a very optimistic: 90% for the electric motors, 90% for the power electronics driving these, 90% for the batteries themselves (which is probably very optimistic once they get hot), and another 90% for the charging. That's just 66%, accounting only for the main parts, and probably already very optimistic (real figures under real conditions may well be down to around 50-60%). Still significantly better that ICE for sure, but not that dramatically.


NiHaoMike:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2024, 05:50:21 am ---Of course not. That's about the efficiency of its main parts separately, as AVGresponding just said above, but of course not the whole chain as I said.
Just start with a very optimistic: 90% for the electric motors, 90% for the power electronics driving these, 90% for the batteries themselves (which is probably very optimistic once they get hot), and another 90% for the charging. That's just 66%, accounting only for the main parts, and probably already very optimistic (real figures under real conditions may well be down to around 50-60%). Still significantly better that ICE for sure, but not that dramatically.

--- End quote ---
ORNL tested the 2012 Leaf motor and inverter at greater than 90% over most of its operating range.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2014/03/f13/ape006_burress_2013_o.pdf
The efficiency of the battery itself wasn't mentioned in that PDF but a similar one is listed at 96% round trip. The charger is easily 95% or better for an overall efficiency of greater than 82%.

--- Quote from: AVGresponding on April 02, 2024, 05:19:29 am ---The motor and battery system may well be, but when you take the system as a whole, ie the whole car, that drops off dramatically

--- End quote ---
The big improvements there would be aerodynamics and tires, which are already a big focus for EVs. One problem is that the higher efficiency tires are more expensive and wear out before the energy savings pay for themselves, particularly with EVs.

tszaboo:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 02, 2024, 01:45:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2024, 05:50:21 am ---Of course not. That's about the efficiency of its main parts separately, as AVGresponding just said above, but of course not the whole chain as I said.
Just start with a very optimistic: 90% for the electric motors, 90% for the power electronics driving these, 90% for the batteries themselves (which is probably very optimistic once they get hot), and another 90% for the charging. That's just 66%, accounting only for the main parts, and probably already very optimistic (real figures under real conditions may well be down to around 50-60%). Still significantly better that ICE for sure, but not that dramatically.

--- End quote ---
ORNL tested the 2012 Leaf motor and inverter at greater than 90% over most of its operating range.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2014/03/f13/ape006_burress_2013_o.pdf
The efficiency of the battery itself wasn't mentioned in that PDF but a similar one is listed at 96% round trip. The charger is easily 95% or better for an overall efficiency of greater than 82%.

--- Quote from: AVGresponding on April 02, 2024, 05:19:29 am ---The motor and battery system may well be, but when you take the system as a whole, ie the whole car, that drops off dramatically

--- End quote ---
The big improvements there would be aerodynamics and tires, which are already a big focus for EVs. One problem is that the higher efficiency tires are more expensive and wear out before the energy savings pay for themselves, particularly with EVs.

--- End quote ---
95% charger efficiency? Not even close. You shouldn't assume things, because you underestimate how bad software and cables can be.
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/elbil/dette-er-de-mest-og-minst-effektive-elbilene/199860?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
For example Renault Zoe: 52KWh pack, 54 KWh to charge it, ~81% efficiency.
And all this discussion is off topic still.

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