Electric car charger design and manufacture done by Government agencies.

[langwadt]

Its this kind of thing that the governemnt run companys can work on to end up with  a really long lasting efficienct charger…

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that "govt run companies" are capable of doing anything competently or efficiently?

Having worked in the public and private sector, trust me when I say that they they're in competition as to who can do the worst job. Worst might be measured slightly different in different aspects of the implementation, but they both suck equally.

private companies run out of money and disappear, govt run companies have an infinite supply of tax money

[sokoloff]

Thanks, the main power level of electric   car charger purchased will be 3kW. This is because it can be  connected  to single phase  domestic mains. Also, it gives a range of about 150 miles from an overnight charge…enough to get to work for most.
So the  dodgy geezers will be running the fets too hot and getting premature fails…What we could  see from the government run companys is actual heat sensors on each power fet so that if the user mounts the charger in a too-hot ambient and the fets start to overheat, then it will safely switch off and flag up “overheating”.

Why use a FET here? Relays work just fine (and seem to be the more common solution in EVSEs that I’ve opened). The EVSE just serves to advertise max current and supply unregulated current to the car’s charger. It’s the car’s charger (built into the car) that’s responsible for honoring the current limit, not the EVSE’s responsibility to enforce it.

[boffin]

Thanks, the main power level of electric   car charger purchased will be 3kW. This is because it can be  connected  to single phase  domestic mains. Also, it gives a range of about 150 miles from an overnight charge…enough to get to work for most.
So the  dodgy geezers will be running the fets too hot and getting premature fails…What we could  see from the government run companys is actual heat sensors on each power fet so that if the user mounts the charger in a too-hot ambient and the fets start to overheat, then it will safely switch off and flag up “overheating”.

Why use a FET here? Relays work just fine (and seem to be the more common solution in EVSEs that I’ve opened). The EVSE just serves to advertise max current and supply unregulated current to the car’s charger. It’s the car’s charger (built into the car) that’s responsible for honoring the current limit, not the EVSE’s responsibility to enforce it.

The charger is built into the car.  All the outlet needs to do is provide 120/240V, and tell the car (via a -12v square wave) how much current it's allowed to pull.  Any additional circuitry is all protection.  If you want to see how a car EVSE works, I suggest you have a look at the open EVSE project.

[sokoloff]

Thanks, the main power level of electric   car charger purchased will be 3kW. This is because it can be  connected  to single phase  domestic mains. Also, it gives a range of about 150 miles from an overnight charge…enough to get to work for most.
So the  dodgy geezers will be running the fets too hot and getting premature fails…What we could  see from the government run companys is actual heat sensors on each power fet so that if the user mounts the charger in a too-hot ambient and the fets start to overheat, then it will safely switch off and flag up “overheating”.

Why use a FET here? Relays work just fine (and seem to be the more common solution in EVSEs that I’ve opened). The EVSE just serves to advertise max current and supply unregulated current to the car’s charger. It’s the car’s charger (built into the car) that’s responsible for honoring the current limit, not the EVSE’s responsibility to enforce it.

The charger is built into the car.  All the outlet needs to do is provide 120/240V, and tell the car (via a -12v square wave) how much current it's allowed to pull.  Any additional circuitry is all protection.  If you want to see how a car EVSE works, I suggest you have a look at the open EVSE project.

Yes, I’m well aware.

[MK14]

Every country in the world should set up its own Government owned  Design and Manufacture centre for designing/manufacturing electric car chargers for its own country’s citizens.
..
..
Are we all in agreement that the above must happen?

No, I don't agree.

If the Government (taking the UK as an example), did the Electric Car Chargers, they would (perhaps) ...

• Need a valid ID card to activate
• Not be ready until 2030++
• But their software would not be ready until 2040, and still only partly work
• They would spy on us
• As promised, they would be "Free", but would need a £1,000/Month Licence
• They wouldn't be manufactured in the UK, despite promises that they would be
• They would be 100% compatible, to a socket type which would never come into existence
• They would stop working after Brexit, because of some slip-up, somewhere
• The "overnight" charge, would end up needing 2 weeks to complete

[Brumby]

MK14 understands Government.

[vk6zgo]

If technical development had been regulated by government, this question would be moot--- technology would never have developed enough for Treez to even ponder this.

For much of the 20th Century, it was, & an avalanche of technological developments occurred.
Many large technology companies relied upon Government orders to keep their doors open.

Ineptitude in government far exceeds any glimmer of brilliance that may shine through the layers of false self-importance and corruption.

Politicians and non-technical public servants wouldn't be designing stuff.
I have worked in Australian Govt & Private Sector organisations, & there was not a sniff of corruption among the people I worked with.

The EEs & other technical staff were just as proficient & diligent in the three large organisations I worked at, although the CEO of one of the Private Sector ones did take off to Majorca with a lot of financial questions unanswered.

The one with the most  problem with " self importance" was a quite small company I worked at after the others.
At that one, no ideas were any good unless they came from the official "chain of command", in complete
contrast to all my earlier Employers in the Technical area.

[vk6zgo]

Even governments knowing the minute details on how to run state corporations like China and Russia know to not touch consumer business.
State owned consumer business is destined to fail due to the difficulty of introducing unfair competitiveness and the inherent inefficiency of state owned business.
If you can't compete well and you can't get good amount of unfair help, then how can you expect to survive?

The State owned Electricity supplier in Western Australia has lower prices than the "Privatised" (ex State) Suppliers in the other States.

Govt run industries in vital areas like communications & utilities ran efficiently for many years in Australia, until, in an orgy of "Ideological Purity", most of them were sold of to the Private Sector, who continue to suck away at the public teat, whilst supplying an inferior grade of service.

If the Private Sector ones were cheap, that would be one thing, but they aren't.

[T3sl4co1l]

Indeed, gov't sponsored or operated research has driven the last almost-century of technological development.  Silicon Valley, as such, wouldn't exist without military and intelligence projects.

The challenge is to select research that's speculative enough that it probably won't have immediate ROI, but is nonetheless likely to succeed on its stated goals.  The lack of ROI means your average corporation won't undertake it; and a large one would be able to, but would have too much policy and office politics to facilitate research.  The cost of research is then spread over the taxpayers, and the benefits turn up later as companies are able to turn that research into greater productivity, more advanced technology and cheaper products (heh, well, hopefully; the semiconductor industry is perhaps too good of an example of this, and I'm sure there are many examples that aren't as beneficial to all people..).

For a more direct example, consider "green energy" projects, and the grants, subsidies and such that are related to them.  Some pay off, some don't.  Wind and solar (Solyndra and such notwithstanding!) have proven economical in suitable regions; US biofuels not so much (E85 consumes a food staple, and doesn't break even with unleaded at current prices).

Tim

[Nominal Animal]

Governments, cities, and municipalities should stick to providing the necessities -- which today includes internet connectivity, IMO -- that are natural monopolies, and leave the rest to competition.

The rules for competition should be transparent and require quality checks, though. There are lots of people who are willing to e.g. mix melamine to milk just to get a little bit more profit, or use a bit cheaper but fundamentally unsuitable concrete mix, to ensure they won't overrun the budget, even when building something as structurally critical as a nuclear reactor. (After all, everyone assumes they can use all of the safety margin themselves, or otherwise they'll be long gone before the problem is noticed, and is therefore Somebody Else's Problem.)

I think the ancient Romans got it right: when they commissioned a bridge, I believe they paid 50% when the bridge was erected, and the other 50% fifty years later, if the bridge was still standing.  Obviously, we cannot do the same today, partially because of inflation, but mostly because everyone wants their profits now and not later.  Interestingly, many western societies seem quite keen to otherwise reproduce the situation of the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

[ocset]

Thanks, Anyway I depict the participant companies will share “secrets” on longevity and value of design for this 3kw EV charger application…….for example there will be no skimping on transient protection…and units that have merely blown a fuse because the mov was old and battered will be brought back into production and not scrapped….or rather, bits of them will be…eg the mains filter, or the heatsinks, etc etc.

Recently, the UK government invested huge amounts of money into producing smart meters for domestic and industrial energy useage in UK (charging for electricity)……the contracts to build the small offline power supplies for the smart meters were spread around about five companies based in UK…none of these companies were actually British owned. These 5 companies worked totally in isolation from each other, and did not share secrets on their work with each other…neither did they check each others work…as a result, there were many incidences of huge amounts of products having to be recalled because either they were electrically unsafe, or the transient protection had a problem, and resulted in premature failure of the PSU’s. This is one of the reasons why a proper Governement backed teamwork operation must happen for 3kw electric car chargers.

[mikeselectricstuff]

This is one of the reasons why a proper Governement backed teamwork operation must happen for 3kw electric car chargers.

Again, what makes you think the govt would do it any better than experienced commercial companies?
And don't you think they have more important things to be doing?

[ocset]

The charger is built into the car.

Thanks, yes, but thats just a small charger for those  hopefully few occasions when the driver forgets and gets caught out, and needs 10 miles or so of charge  to get to the nearesst garage etc...the 3kw chargers will be oftheshelf items boutght additionally for the elctric car

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why would the internal charger not be capable of 3kw?
That's a pretty low charge rate, anything less would be pretty useless.

[sokoloff]

The charger is built into the car.

Thanks, yes, but thats just a small charger for those  hopefully few occasions when the driver forgets and gets caught out, and needs 10 miles or so of charge  to get to the nearesst garage etc...the 3kw chargers will be oftheshelf items boutght additionally for the elctric car

In EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).

The thing that everyone calls a "charger" is properly called an EVSE ("electric vehicle supply equipment") and is responsible for getting power from the source (typically the utility) into the car such that the car's charger can charge the battery. It's the thing that you plug in to charge your car, yet it's not a charger in engineering speak.

[NiHaoMike]

In EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).

The thing that everyone calls a "charger" is properly called an EVSE ("electric vehicle supply equipment") and is responsible for getting power from the source (typically the utility) into the car such that the car's charger can charge the battery. It's the thing that you plug in to charge your car, yet it's not a charger in engineering speak.

Consumer products that have the charging socket connected directly to the battery are quite uncommon - the most common are power tools and R/C toys. Pretty much every modern smartphone, tablet, and laptop has the charger built in yet the power supply used to charge those is pretty much always called a "charger".

[ocset]

In EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).

Thanks, but sorry, an onboard charger would have to be capable of 50kW fast charge otherwise it would get in the  way....and there's no way you'd put a 50kw charger onboard a car...so it has to be customer discretion...and the customer can choose whether to buy a home charger capable of 50kw, or just 3kw.
But every electric car must be capable of being connected to a 50kw charger, or a 3kw charger, or anything inbetween.
I am pretty sure that the most efficienct charge is gotten from c/10 chargers.

[langwadt]

In EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).

Thanks, but sorry, an onboard charger would have to be capable of 50kW fast charge otherwise it would get in the  way....and there's no way you'd put a 50kw charger onboard a car...so it has to be customer discretion...and the customer can choose whether to buy a home charger capable of 50kw, or just 3kw.
But every electric car must be capable of being connected to a 50kw charger, or a 3kw charger, or anything inbetween.
I am pretty sure that the most efficienct charge is gotten from c/10 chargers.

The Tesla has a build in charger that will do 11kW  from a 16A 3phase outlet which is pretty standard around here, afaiu you can get a
second charger a mounted to do 22kW if you have a 32A outlet

[ocset]

Thanks thats interesting, i think in most of the EU, and USA, and Aus/NZ, plus most others,  the domestic supply is single phase, and  they are 16A plugs, and really 3kw is the maximum you can have.

I appreciate some cars have built in  11kw chargers, but really, i think the chargers in most cars will be external to the car, or otherwise  the onbaord charger would have to be capable of too many different things....from 50kw, with three phase connection, to 3kw, with single phase connection.

[sokoloff]

In EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).

The thing that everyone calls a "charger" is properly called an EVSE ("electric vehicle supply equipment") and is responsible for getting power from the source (typically the utility) into the car such that the car's charger can charge the battery. It's the thing that you plug in to charge your car, yet it's not a charger in engineering speak.

Consumer products that have the charging socket connected directly to the battery are quite uncommon - the most common are power tools and R/C toys. Pretty much every modern smartphone, tablet, and laptop has the charger built in yet the power supply used to charge those is pretty much always called a "charger".

I agree with your argument as logical, but that's not consistent with the terminology the EV industry engineering seems to have settled on.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Thanks thats interesting, i think in most of the EU, and USA, and Aus/NZ, plus most others,  the domestic supply is single phase, and  they are 16A plugs, and really 3kw is the maximum you can have.

I appreciate some cars have built in  11kw chargers, but really, i think the chargers in most cars will be external to the car, or otherwise  the onbaord charger would have to be capable of too many different things....from 50kw, with three phase connection, to 3kw, with single phase connection.

3phase vs. 1phase is just 2 more diodes and higher voltage tolerance, so not a big deal.

[oPossum]

Tesla uses 3 identical inverters for 3 phase. Two of the three are used for single phase operation.

[oPossum]

Thanks thats interesting, i think in most of the EU, and USA, and Aus/NZ, plus most others,  the domestic supply is single phase, and  they are 16A plugs, and really 3kw is the maximum you can have.

12 kW in the USA is not a problem. Ordinary domestic supply is 240 V split phase, and 50 A circuits are used for air conditioning, resistive heating and other applications including EVSE.

The Tesla Model 3 has a 7.7 or 9.6 kW charger on board (depending on battery capacity), so getting close to what a common domestic supply can provide.

The first generation Tesla superchargers where just a stack of the same on board charger used in the car.

[ocset]

Yes, thanks, Tesla put the charger in the car, because chargers and EV's etc etc arent that common at the moment, so they put it in the car to relieve the customer of the effort of having to buy a charger...but as EVs get more common, EVs will not have the charger in the car any more.

Ok thanks, by the way, this thread was never meant to be political…it was always supposed to be about discussing technical ideas toward 3kw EV chargers that the government could do in a big team effort between government sponsored companies…for example…

No private company would bother to do the following excellent methods…

Transient protection, Mains input filter, PFC, isolation stage, current regulator stage….these should all be modular…..if one of them gets a fault….then it gets sent back to the repair centre, and the one module that has the fault is replaced…all the other modules will be re-used…..saving on scrap.
Also, proper temperature sensing throughout the converter, including elec’lytic cap cases…..no private co’ would bother with this…power would be pegged back till the temp went down to good level. A private co would just shove one NTC in there and try and do it from that alone…loads of scrap would result.
MOVs will be used…and if done by private sector, units which blew a fuse simply because the mov blew up will be totally scrapped…..not so with the government led thing………….MOV units will be replaced and the unit sent back out after some advisory testing.

This government led project will also massively help bring on power supply engineers in the UK or whatever country.
There is a massive shortage in uk...plus other countries.
I appreciate that if any individual is making a ton of money through working in the private sector, then you’re not going to be interested in any government backed project, period……but just think of all the government money which gets poured into UK co’s at the moment…in terms of “development grants”…this amounts to billions of pounds of wasted money every year…wasted by private UK companies doing “waste of time” things with this taxpayers money.

[langwadt]

Yes, thanks, Tesla put the charger in the car, because chargers and EV's etc etc arent that common at the moment, so they put it in the car to relieve the customer of the effort of having to buy a charger...but as EVs get more common, EVs will not have the charger in the car any more.

Ok thanks, by the way, this thread was never meant to be political…it was always supposed to be about discussing technical ideas toward 3kw EV chargers that the government could do in a big team effort between government sponsored companies…for example…

No private company would bother to do the following excellent methods…

Transient protection, Mains input filter, PFC, isolation stage, current regulator stage….these should all be modular…..if one of them gets a fault….then it gets sent back to the repair centre, and the one module that has the fault is replaced…all the other modules will be re-used…..saving on scrap.
Also, proper temperature sensing throughout the converter, including elec’lytic cap cases…..no private co’ would bother with this…power would be pegged back till the temp went down to good level. A private co would just shove one NTC in there and try and do it from that alone…loads of scrap would result.
MOVs will be used…and if done by private sector, units which blew a fuse simply because the mov blew up will be totally scrapped…..not so with the government led thing………….MOV units will be replaced and the unit sent back out after some advisory testing.

This government led project will also massively help bring on power supply engineers in the UK or whatever country.
There is a massive shortage in uk...plus other countries.
I appreciate that if any individual is making a ton of money through working in the private sector, then you’re not going to be interested in any government backed project, period……but just think of all the government money which gets poured into UK co’s at the moment…in terms of “development grants”…this amounts to billions of pounds of wasted money every year…wasted by private UK companies doing “waste of time” things with this taxpayers money.

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