Author Topic: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.  (Read 551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« on: August 11, 2018, 06:08:20 am »
History:


Take a careful look at the machine and why it's located in a huge safe.  Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile gets it's energy from ultra low frequency seismic vibrations from earth. The earth is never perfectly silent even if we cant feel it. Just look at a geological seismograph readings, there are always small background vibrations present. There is nothing fancy here and it is possible to create a setup without a moving ball to generate a minute amount of electricity directly. His huge safe removes local higher frequencies coming from local sources like local car traffic, and leaves the ultra low frequency from deep in the earth to sync with the mechanical ball's speed. This is why it doesn't always work.  Those springs which the ball occasionally hits off the pendulums actually act as very efficient 1 way diodes, like in a boost converter.  Or, the machine is like a huge AM crystal radio, except, not electromagnetic, but, mechanical vibration powered.

Probably, a huge mass held on a horizontal beam in the air, where part of that support beam is one of those efficient mechanical crystals like in the BBQ spark ignitor, with the other side secured to the earth on a huge slab of heavy concrete will probably generate a tiny measurable AC voltage/current due to it's change in bending from earth's vibrations.  This can also be done with good old fashion magnet/coil like in some older seismograph measuring instruments.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 06:52:59 am by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2018, 06:40:19 am »
Can someone else come up with a better explanation why he can get that ball, at times, going around that track for a day at that 1 speed?
This has to be some fluke of the century, or, Finsrud knows and designed his contraption tuned to get energy from the vibrations in the Earth...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 06:44:16 am by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline Domagoj T

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • Country: hr
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2018, 05:28:47 pm »
I don't see why would you involve anything more complex than just a large mass swinging about.
Also, we can't see the inside of the main support pillar which can easily contain an energy storage device - another large mass, gradually being lowered and transferring energy to the main device via a clockwork type mechanism to make up for the losses.
Even the guy himself doesn't claim overunity or even 100%, but is happy about 80-90% efficiency, which we can all agree is not even close to perpetual motion, let alone "everyone receiving free energy".
I have a paperweight on my desk that is more much efficient at doing nothing useful than this device.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3587
  • Country: nl
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2018, 07:54:42 pm »
Foucault's pendulum also keeps moving, on non-cosmic timescales, you just can't extract useful energy from it.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:57:44 pm by Marco »
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1820
  • Country: de
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2018, 10:02:13 pm »
Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile gets it's energy from ultra low frequency seismic vibrations from earth.

Why would you think so? My assumption would be that the device gets the energy from the user who starts it off, and then runs until it has converted that energy into heat (via friction losses and acoustic noise).

There are quite a few moving masses visible, and there is "a much heavier pendulum hidden in the base". So this machine can store quite a bit of kinetic energy, which should keep it going for a while.

I have no idea what the interviewed "expert" is talking about when he mentions "90% efficiency". Since no usable power is tapped from the machine, its efficiency is zero: All of the energy you put in when starting the device will be wasted. It just gets wasted slowly.  :P
 

Offline RoGeorge

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 890
  • Country: ro
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 10:14:56 pm »
The inventor's explanation
Quote
"...this [Yin-Yang] is the mathematic symbol for the force, the free force"
was gold!  :-DD
 
The following users thanked this post: newbrain, BrianHG

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: gb
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2018, 10:33:18 pm »
Could the large pendulum be gaining some influence from lunar tidal effects? I would imagine that there might be more 'free' energy available than from the vagaries of seismic activity. It would probably work better outside the strongroom though.  :-\

It would be neat to come up with a small decorative 'perpetual motion' machine that worked on that principle.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 10:35:39 pm by Gyro »
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1820
  • Country: de
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2018, 11:01:42 pm »
Could the large pendulum be gaining some influence from lunar tidal effects? [...]
It would be neat to come up with a small decorative 'perpetual motion' machine that worked on that principle.

It would take an inconveniently long pendulum to get the resonance frequency right, or very soft springs and large masses... 
Not compatible with "a small decorative machine", I'm afraid. ;)

I am not familiar with the rule of the "perpetuum mobile" game: If you are allowed to drive it from external energy that is just "around", would use of a solar cell also qualify?  8)
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10983
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 05:35:59 am »
I am not familiar with the rule of the "perpetuum mobile" game: If you are allowed to drive it from external energy that is just "around", would use of a solar cell also qualify?  8)

Indeed, free energy is all around us, and foregoing the strongest of them all (by many orders of magnitude, except possibly wind and wave sources -- in terms of direct energy that is, because of course these sources are ultimately (predominantly) solar as well :) ) is quite foolish indeed.  I suspect the psychology is that, if it's good enough for industry (solar power, wind farms..), it must be too mainstream to be "free" anymore?

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2018, 05:40:18 am »
Could the large pendulum be gaining some influence from lunar tidal effects? I would imagine that there might be more 'free' energy available than from the vagaries of seismic activity. It would probably work better outside the strongroom though.  :-\
Outside the safe, there are a lot of high frequencies, say between 3hz an 0.3hz, say local city traffic rumble, which is too high and too weak for the slow moving mass ball.  That safe smooths/ filters this out.  Think of it as a tuned inductor/capacitor.  This only allows through the earth.s really low 0.3hz and below swaying the vertical structure of the machine adding energy to the pendulums.  The rolling ball with those pendulum touching gates on the track and the wave of the machine keeps the track tilting forward.  Select a frequency which is in sync with the balls speed and pendulum length, and his machine would probably work even better.  I said that if this is the case, it is nothing more than a fluke of size and design.

My frequency estimations are only guesses.  As for there being enough mass in the machine to just sway perfectly for an entire day on some days, the not work on others, to keep the ball moving, yes I agree, this is also a potential possibility.

__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: gb
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2018, 05:49:36 am »
Could the large pendulum be gaining some influence from lunar tidal effects? [...]
It would be neat to come up with a small decorative 'perpetual motion' machine that worked on that principle.

It would take an inconveniently long pendulum to get the resonance frequency right, or very soft springs and large masses... 
Not compatible with "a small decorative machine", I'm afraid. ;)



Yes, you'd need some pretty big masses, maybe a sprung inverted 'pendulum'. I'm put in mind of some ingenious clock designs, I remember one that used a 'cart' leaf spring, very small deflection, high forces... and of course the Atmos clock, powered solely by a combination of ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure changes.

Quote
I am not familiar with the rule of the "perpetuum mobile" game: If you are allowed to drive it from external energy that is just "around", would use of a solar cell also qualify?  8)

You're right, solar would definitely be cheating. I guess you could maybe define the rule as 'without visible means of support'.
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2018, 05:50:48 am »
I am not familiar with the rule of the "perpetuum mobile" game: If you are allowed to drive it from external energy that is just "around", would use of a solar cell also qualify?  8)

Indeed, free energy is all around us, and foregoing the strongest of them all (by many orders of magnitude, except possibly wind and wave sources -- in terms of direct energy that is, because of course these sources are ultimately (predominantly) solar as well :) ) is quite foolish indeed.  I suspect the psychology is that, if it's good enough for industry (solar power, wind farms..), it must be too mainstream to be "free" anymore?

Tim
When it comes to energy harvesting, yes, we are so tied to the oil/fossil fuel market and solar/wind/wave will take over as temporary storage gets cheaper and new infrastructure is built.  The problem is that even when our power sources are 100% from these, our electrical bill wont drop at all.  This is the allure of free energy, besides the false thought that it will be enough to save the world, and be small enough for everyone to have a device in their own house...  If you want to save the world, sun, wind and hydro alone properly deployed can cover quite a bit, focus your efforts there.

For our future energy need, energy from the sun will play a large role for a good chunk of earth and fusion is coming, and will eventually cover most of the rest of our needs, including the possible eventual man space missions beyond the orbit of Mars.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 05:53:33 am by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: gb
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2018, 05:56:24 am »
...
My frequency estimations are only guesses.  As for there being enough mass in the machine to just sway perfectly for an entire day on some days, the not work on others, to keep the ball moving, yes I agree, this is also a potential possibility.

It would be really good to know what was really in that column - it could be a great lump of Tungsten or something equally dense. Of course it would need a pivot to match, which would probably be very visible.
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2018, 06:12:38 am »
...
My frequency estimations are only guesses.  As for there being enough mass in the machine to just sway perfectly for an entire day on some days, the not work on others, to keep the ball moving, yes I agree, this is also a potential possibility.

It would be really good to know what was really in that column - it could be a great lump of Tungsten or something equally dense. Of course it would need a pivot to match, which would probably be very visible.
The pivot is actually barely visible.  The inner ring of the track rotates at a slight tilt angle which helps keeps the ball moving forward.
Think of a big vertical spring rota-tingly bent wobbling in a circle.  A slow-motion version of this: https://youtu.be/KJHlwJ1gsms?t=60
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1820
  • Country: de
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2018, 06:40:32 am »
Outside the safe, there are a lot of high frequencies, say between 3hz an 0.3hz, say local city traffic rumble, which is too high and too weak for the slow moving mass ball.  That safe smooths/ filters this out.  Think of it as a tuned inductor/capacitor.  This only allows through the earth.s really low 0.3hz and below swaying the vertical structure of the machine adding energy to the pendulums.  The rolling ball with those pendulum touching gates on the track and the wave of the machine keeps the track tilting forward.  Select a frequency which is in sync with the balls speed and pendulum length, and his machine would probably work even better.  I said that if this is the case, it is nothing more than a fluke of size and design.

Again, why would you think that?! I can certainly come up with even more involved and exotic explanations... Telekinesis, anyone?  ;)

The trick in scientific reasoning is to find the simplest explanation that is consistent with the obervations. And that is, as stated above by Domagoj and myself, that the thing is just running off stored mechanical energy. Listen to the video, the guy admits that there is a big hidden pendulum inside the base.
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1194
  • Country: nz
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2018, 07:05:25 am »
...
My frequency estimations are only guesses.  As for there being enough mass in the machine to just sway perfectly for an entire day on some days, the not work on others, to keep the ball moving, yes I agree, this is also a potential possibility.

It would be really good to know what was really in that column - it could be a great lump of Tungsten or something equally dense. Of course it would need a pivot to match, which would probably be very visible.
The pivot is actually barely visible.  The inner ring of the track rotates at a slight tilt angle which helps keeps the ball moving forward.
Think of a big vertical spring rota-tingly bent wobbling in a circle.  A slow-motion version of this: https://youtu.be/KJHlwJ1gsms?t=60


If that is how it works then the springs and magnets and other crap could all be removed and it will still run.
No need for one way diode springs.




 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2018, 08:05:34 am »
Outside the safe, there are a lot of high frequencies, say between 3hz an 0.3hz, say local city traffic rumble, which is too high and too weak for the slow moving mass ball.  That safe smooths/ filters this out.  Think of it as a tuned inductor/capacitor.  This only allows through the earth.s really low 0.3hz and below swaying the vertical structure of the machine adding energy to the pendulums.  The rolling ball with those pendulum touching gates on the track and the wave of the machine keeps the track tilting forward.  Select a frequency which is in sync with the balls speed and pendulum length, and his machine would probably work even better.  I said that if this is the case, it is nothing more than a fluke of size and design.

Again, why would you think that?! I can certainly come up with even more involved and exotic explanations... Telekinesis, anyone?  ;)

The trick in scientific reasoning is to find the simplest explanation that is consistent with the obervations. And that is, as stated above by Domagoj and myself, that the thing is just running off stored mechanical energy. Listen to the video, the guy admits that there is a big hidden pendulum inside the base.

Yes, his entire machine is one gigantic pendulum on a spring with 3 smaller ones around it.

As for the safe, it has everything to do with physical size and mass.  Think of your basic pendulum, the larger and heavier it is, the lower it's resonant frequency.  That huge steel safe mounted on concrete will dampen out a lot of the higher frequencies compared to the vibrations it would amplify through because of it's resonant frequency due to shape and mass.  This is basic mechanical motion, nothing electromagnetic.  Just like when I was a kid, with a cheap small telephone pole on the street, pushing it ever so slightly just at the right frequency could make it sway a little back and forth.  That huge safe on a concrete foundation slab in the basement of his house depending on seismic events of the day, will sway ever so slightly with the earth.  Mount this guys machine on a huge lump of anti-vibration foam and I bet that ball wouldn't run for more than a few minutes.
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2018, 08:09:10 am »
If that is how it works then the springs and magnets and other crap could all be removed and it will still run.
No need for one way diode springs.
Those diode one way springs on the 3 pendulums circling the device keep the ball moving so tight to that fixed rpm speed.  Without them, if the ball would probably decelerate too much too quickly and the whole thing would grind to a halt within a minute or 2.

REMEMBER, That machine kept the ball going for 3 days, 72 hours non stop and at 1 fixed speed.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 08:13:38 am by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5798
  • Country: us
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2018, 09:08:16 am »
It's not *that* hard to keep something moving for a very long time, a heavy flywheel on magnetic bearings in a vacuum ought to spin for many days once spun up. It's still not free energy, like current circulating in a superconductor it's going to stop as soon as you try to extract any work from it.
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
  • Country: ca
Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile, false perpetual motion.
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2018, 10:05:02 am »
It's not *that* hard to keep something moving for a very long time, a heavy flywheel on magnetic bearings in a vacuum ought to spin for many days once spun up.
This isn't a vacuum.  The ball RPM is constant.  There is air and friction at many mechanical places on this machine.  A minute amount of energy is bleeding into his system from somewhere to offset some of this.  I just stating where I think it's coming from.

Yes, I can place a huge neodymium high speed spinning magnetic top toy in a vacuum and get it to turn for a week.  Though, tests with smaller ones have show that they do slowly decelerate.  Here is an example:


__________
BrianHG.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf