Author Topic: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION  (Read 10102 times)

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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« on: October 01, 2022, 12:30:45 am »
I am trying to pay for something where a merchant has stopped using Paypal but provided other choices.
I saw Google pay and was trying to add my debit card.

I was astounded to come across this:


There are TWO months on there, one for "Start date" and the other for "expiry date" and I think it is plain stupid not to specify which one they are looking for or maybe things have changed and I am the one who is stupid and they expect me to know which one. What I don't want to do is put incorrect information in there and have a block put on my card and account.

When I paid for things by card I never really had this problem before where it was clear what they were asking for.  I remember some of them want both, one or the other before the numbers on the back.

There was only one occasion and that was from a very long time ago. In 2004 I brought 1GB of PC3200 Corsair XMS memory from a place called overclockers.co.uk. As I was trying to pay for it there was a requirement to put in an "issue number" but I didn't have such a number on my bank details or on the card and it failed.

So I called the bank and I was told to put 0's in there and it worked.

I should have posted a picture of what I mean but thanks to to Monek linked from his post:


I have edited the title "Google Pay STUPIDITY" to "Google Pay CARD CONFUSION" as I have now discovered that card details are not all standardized as I thought they were and are different by country.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 06:34:56 am by MrMobodies »
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2022, 12:41:07 am »
If they don't specify they're only looking for the expiry date.

I guess you don't use cards much.
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2022, 12:44:38 am »
No, not as much as i use to. It is Paypal that I mainly use.

I did use to with companies credit/debit cards when I worked at a few places before 4 years ago where we placed orders all day for things like building materials either on websites or on the phone.

It seems to have worked thanks.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 12:53:41 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2022, 12:52:58 am »
Err... ok.  I have never, not even once, seen any credit/debit card payment form ask for any other date than expiry.

In fact, I have never, not even once, seen any credit/debit, or even EFTPOS card that has a "start date" printed on it (or a start date at all other than the date on which you activate said card).

It really doesn't take much life experience to deduce that the date they are asking for is the same date as literally every other credit/debit card payment form you have likely ever seen asks for, namely, the expiry date.

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Online Monkeh

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2022, 01:01:41 am »
In fact, I have never, not even once, seen any credit/debit, or even EFTPOS card that has a "start date" printed on it (or a start date at all other than the date on which you activate said card).

You're welcome.

And yes, I could have used a stock image, but this way there's the potential funny of "YOU POSTED A PHOTO OF YOUR CARD ARE YOU MAD?!".
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 01:04:59 am by Monkeh »
 
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Offline sleemanj

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2022, 01:04:23 am »
I guess I can cross that off my never-seen list then.  None of my NZ issued cards have ever had them that I remember, in the last 25-30 years.
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2022, 01:21:05 am »
I am pretty sure I remember quite a few which were on the phone to like suppliers and wholesalers for building materials (not with my debit card for those it was a company) where some wanted the either the valid/start date or both then the CVC number.

I remember on some payment checkouts just when entering the numbers where there were these little diagrams of the card highlighting what they were looking for and I see Google did this but only for the CVC but not which month.


I don't understand it myself as to why different merchants or wholesalers in the past would request either, start or expiry or both so and I never bothered to question it and I found it straight forward so please forgive me.

Err... ok.  I have never, not even once, seen any credit/debit card payment form ask for any other date than expiry.

In fact, I have never, not even once, seen any credit/debit, or even EFTPOS card that has a "start date" printed on it (or a start date at all other than the date on which you activate said card).

So they do have cards with no start date on them a bit like when I was asked for an "issue number" about 20 years ago where there was nothing in the bank details or card.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 01:30:56 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2022, 02:08:18 am »
Sleemanj, I noticed from your country icon that you are from New Zealand.

I just searched for New Zealand credit cards and I see them with only an expiry date:


There is one I found there that shows a start and end date:
https://www.pngwing.com/en/free-png-sjnag

Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Credit card Debit card Visa, personal card, logo, online Banking, business png

An American Express operating in New Zealand that only shows member since:


I thought they were pretty standardized.
 

Offline Fredderic

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2022, 02:57:55 am »
Of some interest, I remember seeing Valid From on some of my cards…  But when I checked just now, they all only have expiry date (including my ANZ credit card).

I can't remember when, but I'm fairly certain that was a change that took place sometime in the last two decades.  I do also have a vague feeling that I used to see credit card entry forms that would sometimes change those extra fields and helper images based on the bank your card number indicated — or more often, either have them on a separate page, or only add them to the form after it knows which bank's template to add on.

So I am wondering if this may be a general trend towards only having the expiry date.  It was long enough ago that I'm having trouble remembering and could have some details off, but I think my ANZ card was the most recent to go that way, and I seem to vaguely recall an information sheet that came with the replacement card, explaining why they were reducing the information shown on the card for privacy reasons; they also stopped showing your card numbers on the front, stopped doing the raised type thing, and moved to it simply being printed all on the back — which I actually think is a very good idea.

Selecting the type of card used to be a very common distinct first step in the process, and I'd figured it had stopped simply because they were extracting the information from the card number rather than relying on their customers to have a clue.  But I am not wondering if this is a general trend everywhere — not just in the couple cards I happen to have personally — and if so, how far along it's gotten.  I imagine the people making the credit card forms are appreciative of only needing to ask for one number, and that date would pretty universally be the expiry date, or, whatever date is available in the absence thereof.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2022, 06:00:40 am »
This is the first time I've ever seen or heard of a credit card with a start date. Every single credit card ordering system I've ever used since getting my first credit card ~25 years ago has asked for the expiration date. I can understand why they didn't bother to specify, I wouldn't have either, I'd just assume that everyone knows the expiration date is needed to run a transaction.
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2022, 06:51:28 am »
Just changed the title to something more appropriate.
I shouldn't have called it "Google Pay Stupidity".
Sorry about that.

If they are designing these forms in countries that don't have start dates on payment cards for other countries that do then I see it's not their fault as how are they suppose to know.

I thought it was standardized but now I see it is not. I did not know it was common knowledge to assume "expiry date" if not specified.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2022, 07:06:00 am »
This is the first time I've ever seen or heard of a credit card with a start date. Every single credit card ordering system I've ever used since getting my first credit card ~25 years ago has asked for the expiration date. I can understand why they didn't bother to specify, I wouldn't have either, I'd just assume that everyone knows the expiration date is needed to run a transaction.

My vague understanding of this was, i think for here at least with Mastercard, it was around that time they started sending the new card through the mail instead requiring you to pick it up from the bank.

The problem from the bank's perspective is that you can't have two valid cards (with the same name and number) running at the same time for obvious reasons. And it might have had something to do with the chip on the card.

Eventually the tech caught up and depending on the bank you initalize the new card somehow or the bank does it automagicly upon first purchase with it.

edit:
This is the first time I've ever seen or heard of a credit card with a start date. Every single credit card ordering system I've ever used since getting my first credit card ~25 years ago has asked for the expiration date. I can understand why they didn't bother to specify, I wouldn't have either, I'd just assume that everyone knows the expiration date is needed to run a transaction.

I thought that the expiry date was used as a hacky way to confirm the card number was valid.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 07:09:14 am by Ed.Kloonk »
iratus parum formica
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2022, 02:24:40 pm »
Farnell website today:
1603900-0

And.. the Chase UK debit card is quite good: has no details at all, other than your name. You set it all in the app, so you can make it point to whatever account you want to use at the time. Never expires :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 02:27:01 pm by dunkemhigh »
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2022, 11:17:48 pm »
Farnell website today:
(Attachment Link)


The Valid From field doesn't have the asterisk and is not required to complete the form.
iratus parum formica
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2022, 12:07:03 am »
Well spotted :)

It's changed recently, don't know why, but the 'from' date used to be required for all my cards. I think they were all Visa, and perhaps MasterCard (which everyone seems to be migrating to) didn't use it.

I think Farnell just couldn't be arsed to change their forms, or perhaps they use a form suitable for everything and then just don't require particular fields on a per-card basis.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Google Pay STUPIDITY
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2022, 01:05:00 am »
I thought that the expiry date was used as a hacky way to confirm the card number was valid.

I don't know what it's used for, I just know it's needed to make a transaction. Card number, name on card, expiration date and starting around 10-15 years ago CCV which is a separate 3 digit number on the back.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2022, 05:03:14 am »
There is no such thing in EMV transaction as valid from date as far as i remember, only the expiry date. While i never seen it printed on a card in north america, i guess banks can use it for additional custom validation. Here cards become valid from the moment you first use them.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2022, 05:15:54 am »
My card has both Valid From and Expires on Dates.

But I've never seen a website that asks for the Valid From date yet. And it wouldn't make sense why they would want it.

They just want to know it's not expired.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 05:18:10 am by Psi »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2022, 10:00:56 am »
Surely they wouldn't use the expired date to figure out if it's expired - the bank will refuse it if so. You can't cheat by using a later date!

So if the expired date is superfluous for checking purposes, the valid from date would be too. Both are presumably there for the end user, so he know his card is useful (or not). I wonder if the requirement to enter one or both on a form is just a water muddying exercise, of adding stuff that doesn't really matter just to make it apparently more complicated to fake.

Oh, thinking back, perhaps the expired date (and the valid from date) were originally important to the vendor when using the imprint tool, before online anything took over. There would be no means of validating that the card is, ah, valid other than by what's printed on it.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2022, 01:15:03 pm »
The expiry date is a means of proving the card is in your hands - the valid from date is another means. It's optional because not all cards have it, and as such most places don't collect it.

They also collect and check phone numbers, billing address, and other details - not all are strictly required but an incorrect entry can be used to deny a transaction.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2022, 01:37:15 pm »
ok
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2022, 01:49:12 pm »
So if the expired date is superfluous for checking purposes
No it is not. Expiry date is  mandatory for credit cards  and used as input into the cryptographic algorithm that calculates encrypted message that is sent to the bank for verification.
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2022, 02:46:37 am »
https://1password.community/discussion/81387/credit-card-valid-from-date
Credit card valid from date
Quote
danco Volunteer Moderator August 2017
More and more sites seem to be asking for the date a credit card is valid from as well as the expiry date.
I don't think I have ever seen 1PW fill in this information, even though it is stored in my 1PW information about a card.
As an example, I just ran into this on the Donmar Warehouse theatre site.

Quote
jxpx777 1Password Alumni August 2017
That's interesting, @danco. You're right that 1Password doesn't currently try to fill valid from dates. If this becomes a widespread situation, then perhaps we will look at adding it, but so far, I haven't heard of many sites doing this and I've never encountered one myself. If you have other examples, please do send them along though as it could be useful for us to see what the common patterns are.

Quote
littlebobbytables 1Password Alumni September 2017
Hi @danco,

If you're based in the UK I think that might explain part of it. I too see a number of requests for the start date. It isn't all the time by any means but it certainly does happen and it seems like maybe it's in part country specific. Jamie and Brenty both originate from the US so they're more accustomed to what US sites request and I do believe them when they say the start date isn't a common request. I certainly wouldn't say no to 1Password filling start date field's too. Once you get used to the convenience of 1Password filling, having to look the data up in 1Password and manually enter it becomes quite pronounced.

Quote
danco Volunteer Moderator September 2017

Another booking site asking for Valid From details
https://rutlive.seetickets.com/WEBPAGES/EntaWebPayment/PatronAndCardPayment.aspx
Reached from Palladium Theatre booking.

So it It looks like this is a UK thing.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 03:02:00 am by MrMobodies »
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2022, 01:03:53 pm »
Not just UK.  NZ cards have both dates, but i've never seen anyone ask for the valid from date.
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Offline newbrain

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Re: Google Pay CARD CONFUSION
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2022, 01:07:13 pm »
Let's check the cards in my pocket:
Swedish MC: end date only
Swedish Visa: end date only - lunch benefit, employer issued
? Citi MC: both dates - employer issued
Italian Maestro: end date only
Italian Visa: both dates
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