? How come CHEM TRAILS are 'condensing', coming during WARM afternoons ?

[RJSV]

   There they are, it's 2 pm and very warm today.
Carefully laid down, right in front of (our) noses.
Some folks will ask: ..."...oh not this again...".
Well, yeah, I see it, again.

   Condensation of water is associated with cold mornings, plus these wide and wider 'Sky Obstructions'
(I like to create descriptive slang terms),
aren't that high, altitude, or are they ?

   The tight little grey line(s), all mostly parallel, run in approx a NorthWest- SouthEast line, could be a ...wait for it:  A Legitimate Air Flight to / from Oakland, Ca.
But any one chemtrail never shows an altitude change.
   What's wrong with this picture?  To take the reverse argument, why not a bunch of contrails, from water, on an excessively COLD morning, 5:30 am ?  We are getting a lot of those, thru March and April.

   It's just so obvious, to comment on, but at risk of ridicule.  'They' are hiding some shet, ...or NOT hiding it.
   Sorry, if chemtrails talk irritates you...I was basically raised, as a kid, by watching 'The Simpsons'.
That 1990's show had some clever sarcasm,  a preferred method of delivery 'Somethings Up.'

[artag]

Cold days are characterised by cloud cover : the sun doesn't warm you.
Contrails are hard to see in cloudy conditions.

[SiliconWizard]

Well, and at 10,000 meters high, even when it's a warm afternoon on the ground, it's still pretty cold up there.

[newbrain]

Another one bites the list.

[sleemanj]

I suggest you just make yourself a cup of really strong tea and read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

[HighVoltage]

So, some people believe in Chemtrails from airplanes and their fuel.
Interestingly others claim that airplanes fly without fuel.
Maybe these two groups should meet.

We are living in a very strange world.
Sometimes I think it is time to leave the planet.
But ooops that will not work, there are chemtrails in the way.

[jpanhalt]

@sleemanj
I don't believe "contrails" are due to engine exhaust as stated in that Wiki link.  They are due to condensation of water in the atmosphere caused by local cooling.

Contrails can happen at any altitude.  I have seen the effect when rotating during takeoff on a humid morning in the Summer; although, they do not persist long at that altitude.

[sleemanj]

@sleemanj
I don't believe "contrails" are due to engine exhaust as stated in that Wiki link.

It's not "smoke" if that's what you are thinking, and that's not what the Wiki link describes.  I suggest you read it again more carefully this time.

Here is the dearly-departed Mirya producing some trails, how many engines did Mirya have, how many trails do you see...


Here is an A380, how many engines, how many trails....


Here is a 737 and a 747 at the same time, again, how many engines, how many trails...

[jpanhalt]

1) I did misread the contrail comment. "produced by aircraft engine exhaust" had me thinking in the wrong direction.

2) Chemtrails are a different thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory ).  Maybe the TS will clarify whether he really meant chemtrails in the title or contrails.

[RJSV]

Actually, my thoughts are oriented towards environment, and global temperature.  Not the alarmist approach, (for whatever political gain), or to 'signal' my wisdom (few of blog members know me). But that the temperature/climate thing has been showing, locally.
(SF Bay Area is in '2nd' phase of big changes).
  The 'unsaid' theme, is maybe too complex, to have left out: That is, that perhaps, there are quiet efforts, to control the rising temperature thing, PLUS a confidence that "Those chumps will NEVER question a great big SKY BLOCK,...right under their noses...".
  "At best; anyone daring to suggest so...will be ridiculed, endlessly...".
   So there's that dynamic. Actually, literally, a lot of 'Climate Alarmism' is fake, but then that's dangerous as a real series of calamities can await.
I had been hearing a lot of alarm, "Such and such, 32 feet rise, by 2020,...", but that was like, 1997.

   Going back, to suggested explanations, those trails I see, expanding, often 3 or 4 clear, tight trails, get to persist, over 2 hours, and literally occupy 60 % of sky dome, above Oakland and San Jose, seemingly parallel to California central coastline.
To do that kind of travel path, a commercial flight, say out of San Jose, (Silicon Valley), would have had to take off, fly south, and assume the North-West line, all parallel, then fly across the entire SF area, over Marin County and then Pacific Ocean.  Maybe, but the odd felling aspects just stack up.  Why not at 6 or 7 am, when it's really cold, at sea level.
Why, so often the warm, even record breaking 'winter' day, say March 3rd.
   But, surely, any concealed planning would include a component of thinking, "No way, this is going to get questioned, legitimately."
   "Chumps" is the phrase, I believe, used in California prisons.
  'A person, usually victim, who tends to side with perpetrators, somehow excusing some outrageous acts'.
  I figured, try the question, ...wait and see, maybe, I hope, actually, to be proven wrong.
Thanks folks, I appreciate your views.

[jpanhalt]

Ordinary contrails can last a long time depending on turbulence and of course can move or not move depending on the winds.  Along the California coast, the land heats much faster than the water.  That uplift over the land is responsible for cooling breezes from the ocean.  It would also tend to move contrails from over the ocean (San Jose and SFO are very busy) to over the coast.  At night, particularly in the near desert areas (like Santa Anna), the breeze can reverse and the area is heated by winds off the desert.

As for further discussion of climate change, I think that topic clearly is in the same category as some others that have been locked.  If you had actual data to present (e.g., timed pictures), discussing persistent contrails might be a different story.  I have seen contrails last what seemed like hours in very stable air.  However, I never actually time them as they are no concern to me.  Our sky in Cleveland gets quite a few considering the traffic into and out of the Boston to DC metroplex. 

[RJSV]

Thanks.
   Virtually all, of the trails I've noted, run roughly North South, with little streamers starting to be carried perpendicular, I'm assuming carried by wind, that's approx West to East, that would be coming landward from ocean.
  Today, the whole entire sky dome appears completely blue, with now, noon, only a couple of vague wisps, having no linear looking qualities. That's a kind of anti-point, meaning that why today completely clear looking while other similar days have a lot, to see and note.
   If you want a comprehensive report, I cannot supply that.  But I have noted, on the days these visible effects are present, it is often maybe 3 existing 'lines', and one partial line, being laid out right then, all parallel.
Uhh, I'd love to get disproven, and admit it, however...
Why then, nothing today ?
   (Those longer lasting, ever expanding 'ribbons' of grey always retain the linear structure, crossing the whole 'dome' visible.)
If I said more than 2 hours, you want 'more specific', but I'm mentioning generalities. Say '2 hours', typically;
That could be 120 minutes, plus or minus a lot.  I suppose, it might be helpful, to track that better, especially to get a view, way out, say at 4 hour point, as now I have curiousity where those linear grey clouds end up. Nice idea!
   Also, wondering what folks in Europe or elsewhere think. It's all a minor distraction today, except, like I said, when it happens, it often 'expands' to more than typically 60% of sky dome.  If you need better numbers I can try, but 'more than 60% covered sky, in otherwise completely blue', is a good metric.
That means there are not really any typical wispy clouds around, to confuse matters, just the ever-expanding linear things.

[NiHaoMike]

So, some people believe in Chemtrails from airplanes and their fuel.

Seems like so much work to release them far away from people, if there really is a conspiracy to release such chemicals, wouldn't it be a lot easier to release them on the ground? Oh wait, that was exactly the case, see leaded gasoline...

[RJSV]

Partially correct, but my flaw is assume way too much, before concluding.  (I'm a better 'back room' researcher, including pocket protector, calculator in holder.)
   My premise being that 'SKY BLOCK' is only for the one day, for reducing SUN influx by shading.  Poisoning and all that, is not, at least, right there, like I said, often expands, in absence of any other real haze, to over
 50 % of so-called 'Sky Dome',...that just means horizon to horizon.
   This thread also, involves personal 'BS' detection.  That's both a innate talent, and learned, plus intuition.
Being from Engineering background, I tend to dabble in 'statistics', like casually measuring, on the clock, how many minutes your kid takes, to complain 'Dog ate that...', or what percentage of interview question, a news anchor spends prefacing with slanderous commentary, before subject person gives 3 second answer...
   "You know, CEO John Smith, the discredited former suspected drug dealer/smuggler puppy killer, who looks like he might get away with his crimes....."
Then, the 3 word answer, from guy being interviewed.

[RJSV]

Oops. Sorry, also meant to say: some other reply mentioned 'poisoning' as yet another "flawed theory", probably innocently changing to original topic..., (unless we are just generalizing this thread, into "All Tricky things ever done, up there in the sky.). This is one specific thing.  Barium  poisoning ? That's another topic, relating a little.
   Oh, I get it:. The two subjects are related because they are deeply flawed and not to be believed.
Heads up: more distracting commentary relating to 'up there in the sky' likely.
I'm too busy today, like many of us, viewing war news.

[SiliconWizard]

As with a number of other current and controversial topics, there's the bullshit and then there are some facts.

While the majority of what you can see in the sky are just con trails, geoengineering is a reality. Cloud seeding is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding
Thing is, apart from noticing an unexpected local change in the weather - if you were a weather specialist - you would probably not notice it. Cloud seeding usually doesn't look anything like con trails in the sky, although I'm certainly no specialist of that.

So, if the question is, do we disperse substances in the air using planes for changing the weather for instance, the answer is definitely yes. On some occasions.
Is that being considered for "reversing climate change". Again, the answer is yes.

But is what you currently see in the sky an indication of that? Likely not. Is it being done often? At the moment, probably not so much. And is that done for willingly poisoning people? Probably not either, although as the article says, there are definite health and environment concerns.

[RJSV]

Yes, thanks for clarifying.
Not a thread discussing poison.
   I'm saying, it's looking like weather manipulation by way of shading.  Motivation perhaps, to avoid panic, (over runaway climate temperature rise). Or speculating; To avoid changing industry, much.
But part of my angle, here, is, ignorance, by way of public schools, and a new'ish habit, of applying dismissive 'labels', to someone commenting on 'weird seeming timing'.
   One reply, here, suggests 'Barium Poisoning' was a theory, for things from the sky.  Then 'more' replies wanting to 'discredit' the 'poison theory'...aggggggrrrrh
  (I'm surprised somebody doesn't mention "poisoning isn't happening...so relax...")
   Point is, that wasn't the TOPIC.   That's some similar sounding thing...similar enough to muddy the waters.
We started on 'Sky blocked at odd times', that being warmer mornings, when colder mornings would be more likely, at those low'ish (and steady) altitudes.

   Plus, if that's happening in Europe, then perhaps just condensation, where a couple thousand feet up it's very cold, regardless of sea level temps.
A commercial pilot might give some good answers.
A 'conspiracy theory' is, really, just a 'nicer' and useless dismissal.  Like a 'poisoning' theory.
    Now, go ahead, let's have a whole bunch more dismissals, but please, no discussion, off topic, concerning 'theories about poison'....

[james_s]

Have you had a mental health evaluation any time recently? Many of your posts recently suggest you may be unwell.

[AVGresponding]

Have you had a mental health evaluation any time recently? Many of your posts recently suggest you may be unwell.

Such comments are unconstructive and also off-topic.



On topic, it has been mooted a few years ago that synthetic clouds could be used to reflect a portion of the suns energy in order to reduce global warming, but I'm not aware of any practical ideas regarding implementation.
Contrails would not be practical for two obvious (to me) reasons; they are too small, and the aircraft that create them burn a lot of kerosene making them, adding to rather than subtracting from the problem.

Bear in mind also the the "sky dome" you are referring to is very tiny in comparison to the planet's surface, being the area of sky visible to an observer at ground level? I think you'd need a very large number of sky domes covered in cloud to noticeably affect the planetary climate.

[RJSV]

Actually, (Avg responding, nice defense, so soon, thank you), I'm accepting of most commentary, as this particular blog Web site seems to 'monitor' the various postings quite well, and promptly, while simultaneously
being pretty darn permissive, (in absence of gross personal insults).
   So, thank you, and I would add, replies are often scarce, so I (EVEN) appreciate a slightly off-base comment. I've issued worse.  I'm what others might call a 'Harmless Weirdo', but, well, a LOT of us creative types get that, sometimes.
   No problems here, as long as no Racial or ethnic stuff gets involved.
   Now, as to the topic, I think the central theme, is that the timing, of those observations, is odd.  Ever view the TV show, 'MONK' ?  He acts like this, displaying a sort of 'instinct'.
    I'll work on my deficiencies, not so worried, about fellow blog posters.
Thanks, again, folks.

[NiHaoMike]

On topic, it has been mooted a few years ago that synthetic clouds could be used to reflect a portion of the suns energy in order to reduce global warming, but I'm not aware of any practical ideas regarding implementation.

Build pipelines to send seawater into deserts, where the water will evaporate and become clouds. But it would be a lot easier to paint every building roof white (unless it's solar or "green") in hot climates.

[AVGresponding]

On topic, it has been mooted a few years ago that synthetic clouds could be used to reflect a portion of the suns energy in order to reduce global warming, but I'm not aware of any practical ideas regarding implementation.

Build pipelines to send seawater into deserts, where the water will evaporate and become clouds. But it would be a lot easier to paint every building roof white (unless it's solar or "green") in hot climates.

I would guess the solid/semi-solid residues left behind by such a process to be considerable and an impediment to continuing function. The painting of roofs is probably the most practical (if semi tongue-in-cheek) suggestion I've personally seen (sorry, you weren't the first to say it!), but would still require a good deal of legislation to compel it with private properties etc.

[RJSV]

I gave up my CAR, 2009.  Walk everywhere. BART trains require, basically 1 mile each way...about 45 minutes.
Not that I'm a saint... more like, a CHEAP-SKATE!

   The world still would need a better deodorant, plus, I'm the 'only' skinny dude in family, I know.
   "You're working for your car, man !"...(fr some movie)

[Rick Law]

First, how I think contrail form as I understand the physics of it:

Warm air has more capacity to hold moisture than cold air.  As hot air (leaving from the engine) cool down, it lost some of its moisture holding capacity forcing the moisture to condense out as water droplet from the air.  Since the hot air is pushed out of the engine as a trail, the water droplets is in a trail too - thus contrail.

This effect is not just the jet of jet engines, it is the hot meeting the cold.  Like a cold glass of drink coming out of the cold fridge into a warm room, moisture is condensed out on the surface of the cold glass.

Even internal combustion engine can cause contrails because it too is hot.   Hot meeting cold is what cause the condensation -- read on, an example is cited in a later paragraph.


Contrail's impact on temperature:

While moisture in the air itself accounts for most our warming, that is not how contrail affects climate.  Cloud cover (reflecting sunlight away) from the ground and it's blanket effect are the main course of contrail's impact to climate.

Contrail affected climate change has definitely been reported.  There were unintended "experiments".  Some of us were around during the 9/11 terrorist attack in the USA.  It resulting in air space closed for about 3 days (no contrail).  Further back, there were the WW II air raids (lots of airplane exhaust hot air - ie: contrails).

This is the reported impacts climate-wise quoted from the article "Empty skies after 9/11 set the stage for an unlikely climate change experiment"^[1]:

... ...About a year after the attacks, Carleton, David Travis, a geographer at the University of Wisconsin, and another colleague argued in a paper that thin clouds created by contrails reduce the range of temperatures. By contributing to cloud cover during the day, they reflect solar energy that would otherwise have reached the earth’s surface. At night, they trap warmth that would otherwise have escaped. ... ... The effect during the three days that flights were grounded was strongest in populated regions where air traffic was normally densest. The increase in range came to about two degrees Celsius.

Other studies have tended to back up the research. In 2011, British scientists wrote that an air raid in May 1944 involving over 1,400 aircraft measurably lowered daytime temperatures in England. In that case, the situation was the reverse of 9/11 – large-scale air travel was unknown, and dense concentrations of large planes were rare. ... ...
[ RL: Bold added. ]

Note that the observation is a 2 degree change due to 9/11's three days of no contrail.  If we double the air traffic, we would double the contrails and that should do a hell of a lot more in lowering global temperature than reducing carbon emission, which I recalled is fractional degree in a couple of decade.  While Carbon Dioxide is responsible for as much as 80% of the warming if you exclude water vapor and cloud, but water vapor and cloud is clearly dominant over Carbon Dioxide.  Wikipedia has water vapor/cloud responsible for 36% to 72% of the warming and Carbon Dioxide for merely 9% to 26% of the warming^[2].

So, I suppose that is why the Climate Activists are flying private jets to climate summits.  Want a cooler earth, fly more, not less.

References:
[1]  The contrail climate affect are quoted from this article:
https://globalnews.ca/news/2934513/empty-skies-after-911-set-the-stage-for-an-unlikely-climate-change-experiment/

[2]  Wikipedia's percent of warming caused by different gases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

EDITS: Minor wording change for grammar/typo correction.  No substantive change.

[ebastler]

Note that the observation is a 2 degree change due to 9/11's three days of no contrail.  If we double the air traffic, we would double the contrails and that should do a hell of a lot more in lowering global temperature than reducing carbon emission,

I think you have misunderstood the source you quoted. It describes that there were stronger day-to-night variations in temperature without the cloud contributions from aircraft trails: Warmer during the day, cooler at night. As emphasized by yourself, with additional italics added:

thin clouds created by contrails reduce the range of temperatures. By contributing to cloud cover during the day, they reflect solar energy that would otherwise have reached the earth’s surface. At night, they trap warmth that would otherwise have escaped. ... ... The effect during the three days that flights were grounded was strongest in populated regions where air traffic was normally densest. The increase in range came to about two degrees Celsius.

The range (i.e. the amplitude) of temperature fluctuations has increased with the reduced cloud cover, according to the study you quoted. I cannot see any statement that the average temperature would have been affected.