Author Topic: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?  (Read 23169 times)

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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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We talk about EVs, and solar power what about Elon's solar panel powered Hyperloop?  We were told it would cost just $25 and take 30 mins to travel from SF to LA in 2020.  Anyone buying tickets?



 
 

Offline maginnovision

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I thought he already decided to change it from "hyperloop" to a car in a small tunnel. Also if the current high speed rail is any indication nobody will be building anything from SF to LA in the next couple decades unless tickets are more than an airplane.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Did you watch the video?
In a 2017 newscast interview Hyperloop would be operational in 2020.

But who is the bigger scammers?  Elon Musk or Elizabeth Homes?
 
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Offline maginnovision

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No, I didn't. I don't have time right now to watch the video, maybe ever. As for scamming it all depends on the future. Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer). We know how everything holmes did turned out though so it's probably easier to justify her.  :-//
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 11:59:19 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline wraper

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took your money for what?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 12:05:03 am by wraper »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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No, I didn't. I don't have time right now to watch the video, maybe ever. As for scamming it all depends on the future. Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too. We know how everything holmes did turned out though so it's probably easier to justify her.  :-//

IDK  When you have time watch the video and let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/2h6Cz4hwuEI
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?

Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.
 

Offline wraper

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Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.
How about getting your facts right? Musk did not take a dime for hyperloop from anyone since he does not build it to begin with.
 
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Offline Bud

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In a 2017 newscast interview Hyperloop would be operational in 2020.
No no no, i am first in the line for my tourist ticket to Mars "by 2018" !
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline wraper

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In a 2017 newscast interview Hyperloop would be operational in 2020.
No no no, i am first in the line for my tourist ticket to Mars "by 2018" !
You both are in line to be bullshit spreaders. Claim from Hyperloop One has nothing to do with Musk since he does not have anything to do with that company. But your claim about Mars tourism you simply pulled out of your ass some time ago and newer bothered to provide the source when asked.
 
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Offline Bud

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I do not keep track of all of bullsit that came out of that moron.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline wraper

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I do not keep track of all of bullsit that came out of that moron.
You simply do not keep track of your own BS said. Is it that hard to admit you made that up?
 

Offline cdev

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As money gets tighter there is more and more scamming going on, it comes in cycles.

Hold on to your money tight!


Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?

Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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In a 2017 newscast interview Hyperloop would be operational in 2020.
No no no, i am first in the line for my tourist ticket to Mars "by 2018" !
You both are in line to be bullshit spreaders. Claim from Hyperloop One has nothing to do with Musk since he does not have anything to do with that company. But your claim about Mars tourism you simply pulled out of your ass some time ago and newer bothered to provide the source when asked.

Why can't people just come out and say that they hate Elon Musk for no other reason than they just hate him.

All this subterfuge seems like a lot of extra effort.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline cdev

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He is filling a need that countries have for optimism, when many peoples lives are actually crap.

To paraphrase Deelite.. people want to believe in the power of hype.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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What about Elizabeth Holmes?  Who spreads more BS.  Elon or Elizabeth?
 

Offline wraper

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What about Elizabeth Holmes?  Who spreads more BS.  Elon or Elizabeth?
You.
It's a quite strange comparison. Elon might be not on schedule for some things and often is eccentric but he delivers. For example American astronauts to space (for less money and ahead of Boeing), commercial and government satellites (again much cheaper than ULA), cars and whatnot. Elizabeth Holmes never created anything working, all smoke and mirrors.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?
Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.

Musk does not own nor operate nor have any vested interest in any Hyperloop company!
I actually do not rule out that the whole thing on his part is a gigantic troll.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 04:37:40 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?
Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.

Musk does not own nor operate nor have any vested interest in any Hyperloop company!
I actually do not rule out that the whole thing on his part is a gigantic troll.

What about his own Hyperloop compnay?
If I provide you with some "credible" information which contradicts your statement could I change your mind?

Elon Musk is building his own Hyperloop
The billionaire will go into competition with the startups he inspired with his white paper.

Elon Musk may have dreamt up the Hyperloop, but the bulk of its development has been carried out by others. When he unveiled the white paper in 2013, the South African billionaire said that his vision was "open sourced," and it would be for other startups to build it out. Now, however, sources close to Musk say that he will now build his own Hyperloop, starting with the New York to Washington D.C. route.

The news was confirmed in a statement sent to Bloomberg via Musk's Boring Company, which said that it wants to "accelerate the development of this technology as fast as possible." That may pose an existential threat to the number of startups that have begun working on their Hyperloop designs. Businesses such as Hyperloop One, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, Arrivo and TransPod have new competition.

Musk tweeted that he had received informal approval to build his first Hyperloop, from NYC to DC -- approval that appears to have come from the White House.

What's not clear is why Musk has suddenly decided to reverse course and begin working on his own Hyperloop platform.
This article is dated Aug 4, 2017.

https://www.engadget.com/2017-08-04-bloomberg-elon-musk-own-hyperloop.html

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?
Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.

Musk does not own nor operate nor have any vested interest in any Hyperloop company!
I actually do not rule out that the whole thing on his part is a gigantic troll.

What about his own Hyperloop compnay?
If I provide you with some "credible" information which contradicts your statement could I change your mind?

Elon Musk is building his own Hyperloop
The billionaire will go into competition with the startups he inspired with his white paper.

Elon Musk may have dreamt up the Hyperloop, but the bulk of its development has been carried out by others. When he unveiled the white paper in 2013, the South African billionaire said that his vision was "open sourced," and it would be for other startups to build it out. Now, however, sources close to Musk say that he will now build his own Hyperloop, starting with the New York to Washington D.C. route.

The news was confirmed in a statement sent to Bloomberg via Musk's Boring Company, which said that it wants to "accelerate the development of this technology as fast as possible." That may pose an existential threat to the number of startups that have begun working on their Hyperloop designs. Businesses such as Hyperloop One, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, Arrivo and TransPod have new competition.

Musk tweeted that he had received informal approval to build his first Hyperloop, from NYC to DC -- approval that appears to have come from the White House.

What's not clear is why Musk has suddenly decided to reverse course and begin working on his own Hyperloop platform.
This article is dated Aug 4, 2017.

https://www.engadget.com/2017-08-04-bloomberg-elon-musk-own-hyperloop.html

Show actual evidence that The Boring Company has done any work on Hyperloop, or any actual news after that. Digging tunnels is not working on actual Hyperloop technology.
Just read the Wikipedia page. It mentions Hyperloop, but he immediately started working on car elevator lifts, not Hyperloop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boring_Company

Quote
Baltimore–Washington Loop
In July 2017, Musk announced plans to build a Hyperloop tunnel connecting Washington, DC and New York City. He initially stated that the project had "verbal government approval", but government officials disputed this claim and Musk later clarified that there was no formal appoval.[53]
A route between NoMa, Washington, D.C. and downtown Baltimore, following the Baltimore–Washington Parkway, was announced[by whom?] in March 2018. The proposed tunnel would use the company's "Loop" concept, carrying passengers or vehicles on electric "skates".[54]

So show evidence of actual Hyperloop pod/propulsion technology development, as it sound like it never happened and he's all but abandoned the concept.
Nothing in Projects:
https://www.boringcompany.com/projects
Nothing in FAQ, just "the loop" which is for cars. Just some mention of long journey concept.
https://www.boringcompany.com/faq
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 07:43:11 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline SerieZ

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I was never a big fan of personality cults.
Be it on the senseless bashing or admiration side.
Thunderfoot has a weird tendency to obsess over people no matter what and repeat the same point a thousand times.
Makes it hard to enjoy his videos sometimes and I have been following him since the early golden crocoduck days.
And this to me seems like comparing apples to oranges.
As easy as paint by number.
 
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Offline wraper

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What's not clear is why Musk has suddenly decided to reverse course and begin working on his own Hyperloop platform.
This article is dated Aug 4, 2017.

https://www.engadget.com/2017-08-04-bloomberg-elon-musk-own-hyperloop.html
LOL, and all of that speculation from Elon's tweet "I guess a proof of concept is needed".  :palm:
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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I was never a big fan of personality cults.
Be it on the senseless bashing or admiration side.
Thunderfoot has a weird tendency to obsess over people no matter what and repeat the same point a thousand times.
Makes it hard to enjoy his videos sometimes and I have been following him since the early golden crocoduck days.
And this to me seems like comparing apples to oranges.

I agree with you.  While I appreciate the content of his videos, they can be too long and are repetitive.  I also don't like the short inserted videos clips.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Currently I'd say probably Musk because he's taken my money too(right now he's much more a liar than a scammer).
Took money for what, if any?
Musk like Holmes took millions of dollars from investors.  Holmes knew she had a machine that didn't work.  Musk who knows the science has to know Hyperloop would never work, yet accepted money from investors.

Musk does not own nor operate nor have any vested interest in any Hyperloop company!
I actually do not rule out that the whole thing on his part is a gigantic troll.

What about his own Hyperloop compnay?
If I provide you with some "credible" information which contradicts your statement could I change your mind?

Elon Musk is building his own Hyperloop
The billionaire will go into competition with the startups he inspired with his white paper.

Elon Musk may have dreamt up the Hyperloop, but the bulk of its development has been carried out by others. When he unveiled the white paper in 2013, the South African billionaire said that his vision was "open sourced," and it would be for other startups to build it out. Now, however, sources close to Musk say that he will now build his own Hyperloop, starting with the New York to Washington D.C. route.

The news was confirmed in a statement sent to Bloomberg via Musk's Boring Company, which said that it wants to "accelerate the development of this technology as fast as possible." That may pose an existential threat to the number of startups that have begun working on their Hyperloop designs. Businesses such as Hyperloop One, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, Arrivo and TransPod have new competition.

Musk tweeted that he had received informal approval to build his first Hyperloop, from NYC to DC -- approval that appears to have come from the White House.

What's not clear is why Musk has suddenly decided to reverse course and begin working on his own Hyperloop platform.
This article is dated Aug 4, 2017.

https://www.engadget.com/2017-08-04-bloomberg-elon-musk-own-hyperloop.html

Show actual evidence that The Boring Company has done any work on Hyperloop, or any actual news after that. Digging tunnels is not working on actual Hyperloop technology.
Just read the Wikipedia page. It mentions Hyperloop, but he immediately started working on car elevator lifts, not Hyperloop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boring_Company

Quote
Baltimore–Washington Loop
In July 2017, Musk announced plans to build a Hyperloop tunnel connecting Washington, DC and New York City. He initially stated that the project had "verbal government approval", but government officials disputed this claim and Musk later clarified that there was no formal appoval.[53]
A route between NoMa, Washington, D.C. and downtown Baltimore, following the Baltimore–Washington Parkway, was announced[by whom?] in March 2018. The proposed tunnel would use the company's "Loop" concept, carrying passengers or vehicles on electric "skates".[54]

So show evidence of actual Hyperloop pod/propulsion technology development, as it sound like it never happened and he's all but abandoned the concept.
Nothing in Projects:
https://www.boringcompany.com/projects
Nothing in FAQ, just "the loop" which is for cars. Just some mention of long journey concept.
https://www.boringcompany.com/faq

It appears Elon and friends are doing some work.  This is from 2019.  They published a  505 page environmental assessment.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musks-boring-company-takes-small-step-toward-reality/

But isn't the real issue the physics?  Elon, like Elizabeth Holmes it appears believe their words are more powerful then the laws of physics.

Elon and Tesla are in some ways very similar.  Both have had come up with some very ventures.  Both were real showmen and Tesla really liked the ladies.  And both have made outrageous claims.  While Tesla's education was by experimentation, Elon has a degree in physics.  Many of the crazy things Elon is proposing isn't possible or practical.

There's a reason we all aren't driving Tesla's car which he said was powered by the energy in the universe.  At least Elon is using batteries.

I have so much faith and trust Elon's ideas and products I purchases an EV.  A Chevy EV that is.
 

Offline wraper

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It appears Elon and friends are doing some work.  This is from 2019.  They published a  505 page environmental assessment.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musks-boring-company-takes-small-step-toward-reality/
The first sentence contradicts the title. Sensationalism thrives, real journalism is dead. Loop has nothing to do with hyperloop.
Quote
The company filed a sprawling environmental report for the Loop, a proposed network of tunnels that would move people from Baltimore to Washington in 15 minutes.
 
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Look I'm not expert on this.  But I did take and pass a physics class.
As piece the story together.  Elon had the same "brilliant" idea folks had well over 100 years ago for some from on pneumatic tube for transportation of people.  A two station people carrying pneumatic tube was built and tested in New York.  It worked, but must not have worked that well it never went into commercial operation.

Elon around 2012 tells some guy that this is the future of mass-transportation and makes the technology open source.  Elon, in my opinion, must have been high because a lot of what he was telling the guy was more science fiction than reality.
Then between 2012-2017 multiple companies ignored the physics thinking they could build Elon's science fiction Hyperloop.
2017-2018 Elon thinking the first Hyperloop should have been built by now says he's going to build his own.  Elon gets approval of the White House to build one on the East Coast.
2019 Elon submits some of the paperwork required to build his Loop.

Elon is being Just like Tesla.  He's makes these big outrageous claims and doesn't do much of what he said he was going to do.

Feel free to correct me.  I've tried to provide the "information and news" I've been hearing and read.  In this time of fake new, BS news and fake science it's hard to know what's true in the news and when Elon has smoked too much dope.





 

Offline wraper

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Look I'm not expert on this.  But I did take and pass a physics class.
As piece the story together.  Elon had the same "brilliant" idea folks had well over 100 years ago for some from on pneumatic tube for transportation of people.  A two station people carrying pneumatic tube was built and tested in New York.  It worked, but must not have worked that well it never went into commercial operation.
It's not a pneumatic tube  :palm:. Passing the class means that you learned how to pass the class, not actually learned anything useful I guess.
 

Online fourfathom

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Elon had the same "brilliant" idea folks had well over 100 years ago for some from on pneumatic tube for transportation of people.  A two station people carrying pneumatic tube was built and tested in New York.  It worked, but must not have worked that well it never went into commercial operation.

Could there possibly have been any advances in technology since well over 100 years ago?

I don't know enough about the Hyperloop, or Musk's participation in it, to either defend it or criticize it -- but your comment above is pretty pathetic.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline wraper

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Feel free to correct me.  I've tried to provide the "information and news" I've been hearing and read.  In this time of fake new, BS news and fake science it's hard to know what's true in the news and when Elon has smoked too much dope.
How about reading further than title and looking at sources they base their article? Modern news titles are stupid clickbait in 95% of cases. As I already wrote about one of those articles you linked. Elon posted a tweet: "I guess a proof of concept is needed". They wrote a page long article filled with speculations and nonsense  :-DD. If you read further and not only the title, you'd notice that article is a baseless speculation about tweet with zero information.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Look I'm not expert on this.  But I did take and pass a physics class.
As piece the story together.  Elon had the same "brilliant" idea folks had well over 100 years ago for some from on pneumatic tube for transportation of people.  A two station people carrying pneumatic tube was built and tested in New York.  It worked, but must not have worked that well it never went into commercial operation.
It's not a pneumatic tube  :palm:. Passing the class means that you learned how to pass the class, not actually learned anything useful I guess.

Help me out here, why do you say this is NOT a pneumatic system?
 

Offline wraper

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Help me out here, why do you say this is NOT a pneumatic system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatics
Quote
Pneumatics is a branch of engineering that makes use of gas or pressurized air.
Hypeloop is something opposite.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Feel free to correct me.  I've tried to provide the "information and news" I've been hearing and read.  In this time of fake new, BS news and fake science it's hard to know what's true in the news and when Elon has smoked too much dope.
How about reading further than title and looking at sources they base their article? Modern news titles are stupid clickbait in 95% of cases. As I already wrote about one of those articles you linked. Elon posted a tweet: "I guess a proof of concept is needed". They wrote a page long article filled with speculations and nonsense  :-DD. If you read further and not only the title, you'd notice that article is a baseless speculation about tweet with zero information.

I believe you are mistaken.  There is a link to a 500 page draft document.  Why would they produce a 500 page document?
 

Offline wraper

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Feel free to correct me.  I've tried to provide the "information and news" I've been hearing and read.  In this time of fake new, BS news and fake science it's hard to know what's true in the news and when Elon has smoked too much dope.
How about reading further than title and looking at sources they base their article? Modern news titles are stupid clickbait in 95% of cases. As I already wrote about one of those articles you linked. Elon posted a tweet: "I guess a proof of concept is needed". They wrote a page long article filled with speculations and nonsense  :-DD. If you read further and not only the title, you'd notice that article is a baseless speculation about tweet with zero information.

I believe you are mistaken.  There is a link to a 500 page draft document.  Why would they produce a 500 page document?
There is a link to a 500 page document which has nothing to do with hyperloop  |O.
EDIT: and BTW it's a different article with that link. I was talking about article taking about tweet and no documents. Not that article with a link is any better.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 10:14:43 pm by wraper »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Help me out here, why do you say this is NOT a pneumatic system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatics
Quote
Pneumatics is a branch of engineering that makes use of gas or pressurized air.
Hypeloop is something opposite.

Since you quote Wikipedia as fact, I will also. 
Pneumatic tubes (or capsule pipelines; also known as pneumatic tube transport or PTT) are systems that propel cylindrical containers through networks of tubes by compressed air
or by partial vacuum.

Isn't Hyperloop using a low pressure or partial vacuum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tube

Not bad for just having a public education.
 

Offline wraper

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Since you quote Wikipedia as fact, I will also.
Pneumatic tubes (or capsule pipelines; also known as pneumatic tube transport or PTT) are systems that propel cylindrical containers through networks of tubes by compressed air
or by partial vacuum.

Isn't Hyperloop using a low pressure or partial vacuum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tube

Not bad for just having a public education.
Do you really think that anything where is any gas is pneumatics? How about your room? It has air inside it. Or how about usual subway, there is a gas in the tubes :scared:!!!
Hyperloop does not use any gas for propulsion. It removes gas from the tube so it does not cause atmospheric friction. Propulsion is made by other means, for example Maglev.
Yeah, apparently US public education sucks. ...Sucks...gas??? education  must be pneumatics too!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 10:27:56 pm by wraper »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Musk does not own nor operate nor have any vested interest in any Hyperloop company!
I actually do not rule out that the whole thing on his part is a gigantic troll.

Jul 22, 2019
Elon Musk promises new Hyperloop tunnel after speed record broken.

Why do you say Elon does not own or have any vested interest is any Hyperloop company?
I keep finding articles that indicates he does.

Here's another one.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/22/20703423/tum-hyperloop-record-463-kmph-spacex-elon-musk-competition

And SpaceX to build massive, new Hyperloop tunnel for 2020 competition, says Elon Musk.
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-elon-musk-new-hyperloop-test-track-2020/


Not trying to promote fake news or conspiracy theories.  (The web and this forum have enough people do that already.)
But I have cited a couple of different credible sources which sure makes it appear Elon in in the Hyperloop business. 
I would like to ask why you think he's not?

Thanks
 

Offline wraper

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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Here's another one.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/22/20703423/tum-hyperloop-record-463-kmph-spacex-elon-musk-competition

And SpaceX to build massive, new Hyperloop tunnel for 2020 competition, says Elon Musk.
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-elon-musk-new-hyperloop-test-track-2020/
Small diameter tunnel for students to compete.

You know you are kind of being a dick with the face plants.  You could have been a bit more nicer instead of implying with the face-spats I some dumb fuck.

It was my understanding Hyperloop was a pneumatic tube type system.  That's because I was believing what I was reading and being told in news reports.  Hyperloop is NOT a pneumatic system at all.  (You could have been polite and pointed the out to me instead of being condescending.)  I know realize Hyperloop is a vactrain and not pneumatic as I was lead to believe.

Lighten up my friend.  I'm in this forum to learn.  No need to treat me like shit.

Thank you
 

Offline wraper

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It was my understanding Hyperloop was a pneumatic tube type system.  That's because I was believing what I was reading and being told in news reports.  Hyperloop is NOT a pneumatic system at all.  (You could have been polite and pointed the out to me instead of being condescending.)  I know realize Hyperloop is a vactrain and not pneumatic as I was lead to believe.

Lighten up my friend.  I'm in this forum to learn.  No need to treat me like shit.

Thank you
I often lose my cool since my fuse is short and I'm sorry for that. But you should also understand that giving arguments to you is somewhat similar to throwing them against concrete wall.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 10:50:53 pm by wraper »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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It was my understanding Hyperloop was a pneumatic tube type system.  That's because I was believing what I was reading and being told in news reports.  Hyperloop is NOT a pneumatic system at all.  (You could have been polite and pointed the out to me instead of being condescending.)  I know realize Hyperloop is a vactrain and not pneumatic as I was lead to believe.

Lighten up my friend.  I'm in this forum to learn.  No need to treat me like shit.

Thank you
I often lose my cool since my fuse is short and I'm sorry for that. But you should also understand that giving arguments to you is somewhat similar to throwing them against concrete wall.

Why do you say that?
When provided with credible evidence, my mind can be changed.  When I'm wrong I will admit it.

There are so many people out there pedaling fake news, conspiracies, bullshit it's hard to know who the "good/honest" people are.  I thought and still think you are one of the "good" ones. 

While I didn't appreciate the face-spats, I do appreciate you questioning my posts.  I learned a few things - Thank you.
 

Offline wraper

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Why do you say that?
Well, I actually was quite surprised that you admitted you were wrong about pneumatics. Because I had a feeling that my arguments simply bounce without you bothering to explore what I said. I actually enjoy civilized conversation much more. But it just itches and is so easy to click on facepalm  :palm: LOL.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Why do you say that?
Well, I actually was quite surprised that you admitted you were wrong about pneumatics. Because I had a feeling that my arguments simply bounce without you bothering to explore what I said. I actually enjoy civilized conversation much more. But it just itches and is so easy to click on facepalm  :palm: LOL.

Hey if I'm wrong I will admit I'm wrong.  I didn't really pay much attention to Elon.  While I will admin what he's been able to accomplish is amazing.  But for a guy who has a degree in physics you sure have to wonder if some of the things he's saying are due to drugs and are really stupid.

As previously posted, I wasn't paying that much attention to what Elon was proposing and (stupid me) trusted news people to give accurate news reports.  Turns out I was duped.  You made me realize that. - Thanks again.  Feel free to kindly correct me at any time.  If after three attempts face-splat me.


 

 

Offline EEVblog

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It appears Elon and friends are doing some work.  This is from 2019.  They published a  505 page environmental assessment.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musks-boring-company-takes-small-step-toward-reality/

Nope. Learn the difference between The Loop and The Hyperloop. That is about The Loop, the car transport version.
Again, please provide evidence that the Boring Company has done any actual real engineering work on The Hyperloop.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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It appears Elon and friends are doing some work.  This is from 2019.  They published a  505 page environmental assessment.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musks-boring-company-takes-small-step-toward-reality/

Nope. Learn the difference between The Loop and The Hyperloop. That is about The Loop, the car transport version.
Again, please provide evidence that the Boring Company has done any actual real engineering work on The Hyperloop.

I get it.  Sorry for the confusion.  I'm realizing there is a lot of misinformation out there on Hyperloop, loop and Elon's involvement. 

Goolge says "Hyperloop is an ultra-high-speed underground public transportation system in which passengers are transported at 600+ mph within a vacuum-sealed tunnel."
I took this to mean pneumatic.  It's really vactrain.
And I found other articles saying Loop is a car transport or a people transport (like a bus).

I think I have it straight now.  What ever the press and Elon says might or might not be true.



 

Offline cdev

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Flying between SF and LA takes about half an hour (for the actual flight) . And its a really pretty flight, as they go. And interesting, because they invariably follow the San Andreas Fault (or the coastline) all the way down and back - The fault is like a crinkly marker that just goes across the landscape.

Of course its the delay at airports that eats up most of the time.

But how would that be different with a hype-loop? (pretending for a minute that it had happened) Because it would need to have the same level of security as an airliner.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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If you calculate the projected cost to build the high-speed train from SF to LA every man women and child would have to make that trip 100 times, paying $100 just to cover construction costs/

You are right what happens if there is an earthquake and the ground shifts 25 feet?  I don’t think the track for a high speed train or the tube for the Hyperloop would be that flexible.  Would shut hate to be traveling at 200 to 800 mph when there’s an earthquake.  And for those who says it’s not going to happen....   Ridgecrest, just 100 miles to the north of LA has had over 30  4.5 - 7.1 earth quakes over the past year.

There are some who think none of this maters and we should build a high-speed train and/or a Hyperloop between SF and LA.
 

Offline wraper

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If you calculate the projected cost to build the high-speed train from SF to LA every man women and child would have to make that trip 100 times, paying $100 just to cover construction costs/
You just made this up. You have no actual data on this.
Quote
You are right what happens if there is an earthquake and the ground shifts 25 feet?
Earthquakes usually pose no serious threats to underground systems, especially if you dig deep enough. Most of the damage happens on the earth surface. It's pretty much the same as waves on water, where the water underneath is calm.
 

Offline cdev

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Have you ever lived in California, or any other place where earthquakes are common? It sounds as if you have not. They now build tall buildings with things like built in rollers and shock absorbers so they can flex and sway with the shocks, which are not infrequent. A really large earthquake can move the relative positions of objects on opposite sides of the fault by many meters. Also the ground can liquefy and erupt if its wet.

Earthquakes definitely would and do pose a threat to tunnels. They have various ways to adjust to this, I am not saying its "impossible" but it definitely would and does add substantially to costs and the planning thats required.

Otherwise this hype-train could find itself suddenly making a little directional adjustment... underground, at 500 mph!
 
If you calculate the projected cost to build the high-speed train from SF to LA every man women and child would have to make that trip 100 times, paying $100 just to cover construction costs/
You just made this up. You have no actual data on this.
Quote
You are right what happens if there is an earthquake and the ground shifts 25 feet?
Earthquakes usually pose no serious threats to underground systems, especially if you dig deep enough. Most of the damage happens on the earth surface. It's pretty much the same as waves on water, where the water underneath is calm.

This statement of yours could not possibly be true. Earthquakes are definitely an underground phenomenon, not a surface one.

One interesting electronics related phenomenon which I have seen, which are still not well understood is, very large earthquakes cause very bright flashes in the sky. (the ones I saw were greenish blue) very much like lightning. This must mean that there are very high voltage potentials in the ground.

I saw this once years ago and for decades I had no idea what it was that I had seen because it was not described in the literature.

But recentlly, thanks to sites like Youtube now there are a great many videos people have taken of them.

So that represents another potential problem that must be planned for. If a high voltage spike is large enough to cause these discharges into the sky, they must be absolutely huge.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 01:28:51 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline wraper

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This statement of yours could not possibly be true. Earthquakes are definitely an underground phenomenon, not a surface one.
Here we go again. Refuse to explore what I said.
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Status/Blog/tunnels-and-earthquakes
Quote
All modern structures in the area – including bridges and highways – must be designed with earthquake safety in mind. But geotechnical and structural engineers agree that tunnels are among the safest places to be during an earthquake.

Some folks find this counterintuitive. How is it safe to be underground when the earth starts shaking? Turns out underground structures are safe because they move with the soil, while structures above ground sway back and forth.

Imagine a plate of fruit-filled gelatin dessert. Tunnels are like the pieces of fruit at the base of the gelatin, while above-ground structures are like the fruit toward the top. If you shake the plate, the movement becomes more exaggerated as it flows up from the base of the gelatin. In an earthquake, this translates to tunnel movement measured in inches, while the movement above ground might be measured in feet.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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There seems to be some confusion between groundwaves caused by an earthquake and sctual movement across the fault. If you build a tunnel accross or near a fault, you will have to worry about underground movement, otherwise it'll just be surface waves.

Quote
One interesting electronics related phenomenon which I have seen, which are still not well understood is, very large earthquakes cause very bright flashes in the sky. (the ones I saw were greenish blue) very much like lightning. This must mean that there are very high voltage potentials in the ground.

I saw this once years ago and for decades I had no idea what it was that I had seen because it was not described in the literature.

But recentlly, thanks to sites like Youtube now there are a great many videos people have taken of them.

So that represents another potential problem that must be planned for. If a high voltage spike is large enough to cause these discharges into the sky, they must be absolutely huge.

I did my college geology project on the electrical effects in earthquakes. There is actually a fair amount of research if you dig deep enough, including studies and theories for the above phenomenon, piezoelectric properties of different rocks, and even large scale experements in the 90s and 00s using magnetohydrodynamic generators to force microquakes preventing energy buildup that would cause a larger quake.

However...it's not going to pose a threat to a conductive metal tube, it would be similar to lightning hitting an airplane.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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If you calculate the projected cost to build the high-speed train from SF to LA every man women and child would have to make that trip 100 times, paying $100 just to cover construction costs/
You just made this up. You have no actual data on this.

Dude - Can you do second a third grade math calculation?  That's all I did.
Take the projected cost to build the high-speed train from SF to LA.
Divide that by the number of people living in California.

Before claiming someone is making something up, why not ask them first? 
That would be the polite thing to do.


Quote
You are right what happens if there is an earthquake and the ground shifts 25 feet?
Earthquakes usually pose no serious threats to underground systems, especially if you dig deep enough. Most of the damage happens on the earth surface. It's pretty much the same as waves on water, where the water underneath is calm.

Dude are you for real?  Did you do any research?  Or, I will used your words? Are "you making this up?
When you say most of the damage will be on the surface, does this mean there will be NO damage underground?  Doesn't sound like that way.

The high-speed train from SF to LA is to be on the surface in this part of the state.  Someone else posted the picture showing the fault where the ground shifted 25 feet or so.

Are you the one who is making shit up?
Try using the Internet - I found two "credible" research papers on earthquake damage in tunnels.

http://indexsmart.mirasmart.com/AREMA_CP_2019/PDFFiles/03%20Headifen%20et%20al.pdf

"The Hope Fault sheared the tunnel barrel with a reverse upward movement that lifted the northern 87.5
yards (80m) of the tunnel by 13.8 inches (350mm)..."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2467967417300053
"Their conclusions can be summarized as follow:
• Collapse of tunnels from shaking occurs only under extreme conditions.
• Tunnel collapse only occurred associated with movement of an intersected fault."

Hyperloop and the High speed train from SF to LA would cross several active earthquake faults.

Has any of these "creditable" research papers changed your mind? 

 
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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There seems to be some confusion between groundwaves caused by an earthquake and sctual movement across the fault. If you build a tunnel accross or near a fault, you will have to worry about underground movement, otherwise it'll just be surface waves.

Quote
One interesting electronics related phenomenon which I have seen, which are still not well understood is, very large earthquakes cause very bright flashes in the sky. (the ones I saw were greenish blue) very much like lightning. This must mean that there are very high voltage potentials in the ground.

I saw this once years ago and for decades I had no idea what it was that I had seen because it was not described in the literature.

But recentlly, thanks to sites like Youtube now there are a great many videos people have taken of them.

So that represents another potential problem that must be planned for. If a high voltage spike is large enough to cause these discharges into the sky, they must be absolutely huge.

I did my college geology project on the electrical effects in earthquakes. There is actually a fair amount of research if you dig deep enough, including studies and theories for the above phenomenon, piezoelectric properties of different rocks, and even large scale experements in the 90s and 00s using magnetohydrodynamic generators to force microquakes preventing energy buildup that would cause a larger quake.

However...it's not going to pose a threat to a conductive metal tube, it would be similar to lightning hitting an airplane.

Your research sounds very interesting. 

Going off the deep end....  Sounds like this could be a way to supply California with electricity. 



 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2020, 04:00:07 am »
"Virgin Hyperloop became the first company to conduct a human test of the technology on Sunday at its 500-meter test track in the desert north of Las Vegas. The two volunteers, wearing casual street clothes, were whisked in a pod that was levitated by magnets inside a vacuum tube to 107 m.p.h. in 6.25 seconds"

A step forward
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 04:03:49 am by dunkemhigh »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2020, 04:58:23 am »
I could see it having a future as an amusement park ride, and it would make a slick attraction for a worlds fair like the monorail in Seattle. Like that monorail I don't see it ever scaling to what they are currently promising.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2020, 09:57:00 am »
The article says that the Dutch one is looking to move cargo first, which seems a pretty reasonable idea to me. Walk, trot, run - doing the reverse order often leads to tears (or nothing, as perfection always remains just out of reach).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2020, 11:26:51 am »
"Virgin Hyperloop became the first company to conduct a human test of the technology on Sunday at its 500-meter test track in the desert north of Las Vegas. The two volunteers, wearing casual street clothes, were whisked in a pod that was levitated by magnets inside a vacuum tube to 107 m.p.h. in 6.25 seconds"

A step forward

2030 huh?
At least the reality is starting to kick in slowly...
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2020, 10:10:41 pm »
AFAIR, no-one said it had to happen next week. New stuff takes time to get right. Or fail, of course.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2020, 10:13:23 pm »
AFAIR, no-one said it had to happen next week.

LOL
Everyone was saying it was a couple of years away, including Virgin which said operational by 2021:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Hyperloop
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hyperloop-one-co-founders-on-first-successful-hyperloop-test/
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2020, 10:21:16 pm »
Fair cop - it is actually next week!

Mind, it's taken over 100 years to get this far, so a decade or so is probably within the error margins :)
 

Offline hans

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2020, 03:42:21 pm »
I wonder if anyone also has ran the numbers on the energy efficiency of these hyperloops. It's one of the first big claims on wikipedia. I've collected a few numbers of energy efficiency of various travel methods. Listed below:

- Walking: 22MJ/100km/person[1]
- Cycling: 11MJ/100km/person[1]
- E-bike: 12MJ/100km/person[1]
- Petrol car (5L/100km), 171MJ/100km[3]
     - 1 passenger: 171MJ/100km/person
     - 2 passengers: 85.5MJ/100km/person
     - 4 passengers: 42.8MJ/100km/person
- Electric car (152Wh/km), 54.8MJ/100km[4]
     - 1 passenger: 54.8MJ/100km/person
     - 2 passengers: 27.4MJ/100km/person
     - 4 passengers: 13.9MJ/100km/person
- Airplane regional (<1000km): Airbus A320, 2.25L/100km/person[2] -> 79MJ/100km/person[3]
- Airplane long-haul (10000km): Airbus A350, 2.39L/100km/person[2] -> 83.7MJ/100km/person[3]
- Train: depends on terrain and speed, but can be as low as 7.7MJ/100km/person[1]

So train looks to be pretty good. In fact, airplane and car seems so much worse that's pretty easy to beat.. (To be honest I was surprised that a petrol car and modern airplanes were this close)
Unfortunately, this does not account for infrastructure cost (train tracks, highways, airports, etc.) and vehicle costs.

And that's the point I've trouble finding accurate information about on hyperloops. How much metal or plastics is needed per km of track, and how does this compare to other infrastructure? How much quiescent power is there to create a low-pressure environment in the loop? How much energy does it cost to move the pods? Is it even practical, large-scale for thousands of km's, to build a tube with >2 meter diameter for such a low pressure? (Wall thickness scales with tube diameter) It's significantly bigger than for example oil or gas tubing, although those will have to deal with far greater pressure differences.

I really do question if there isn't an excessive amount of "energy" (= CO2 release) required for the construction of these hyperloop tubes. Just comparing these hyperloops to existing train tracks, it seems like it requires a significant amount of additional infrastructure to build them. Virgin's site states very nicely there are no "direct emissions". That's great and all, but designing mega wind turbines becomes trivial if you have unlimited steel to play with. That doesn't mean that such a wind turbine net effect on the environment is positive.

Although the concept is cool and very futuristic, I'm yet to be convinced that this is an actual step forward to travel long distances more environment friendly. Or, perhaps worse, since it wants to compete with airplane travel times, facilitating long travel even more to the point that user patterns of energy consumption is far worse than the technology we use.

I'm not sure if SF to LA ticket would cost 25$.. It doesn't seem a sustainable price to me. If anything, marketing the hyperloop as the big step in future energy efficient travel while offering faster travel times seems so counter-intuitive too me. I'm not saying I'm unhappy with capitalism, but the fast travel claim just is that IMO.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_EPA_fuel_economy
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 08:49:09 pm by hans »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2020, 02:19:20 am »
I'm not sure if SF to LA ticket would cost 25$.. It doesn't seem a sustainable price to me.

I'd be stunned if it was. The Shanghai Maglev was not economically viable, and it can hold hundreds of passengers at a time like a normal train, not just a handful in a small Hyperloop pod.
 

Online Haenk

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2020, 07:01:46 pm »
I'd guess that train infrastructure (aka rails) are way cheaper than roads to create and maintain. Probably in the order of magnitudes cheaper than Hyperloops (creating and maintaining).
There has been that cool "Transrapid" (Maglev train) in Germany, being pretty much fully developed - but it came with prohibitive costs. So China went with it, not sure, if it really pays off. (In Germany, it would have been impossible to build, unfortunately. In China, you simply move away peoples' villages, if they are blocking your road or rail...)

Concerning "tunnels and quakes", there is one seriously affected tunnel in Istanbul (Bosporus tunnel), which has movable parts to withstand a 7.5 Richter-scale quake. The area has smaller quakes all the time (tectonic plates collision zone), however they are still waiting on a projected much larger quake...
 

Offline cortex_m0

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2020, 10:06:35 pm »
were whisked in a pod that was levitated by magnets inside a vacuum tube to 107 m.p.h. in 6.25 seconds"

If I did the math right, the passengers were subjected to 0.8 g-forces? One of the other Hyperloop operators (HyperloopTT) said a year ago that their hyperloop between Chicago and Cleveland had been reduced to 0.1g acceleration because of Federal Railroad Comission compliance  reasons. See pg. 30 of this PDF: https://8508ab36-da5a-4138-b6f6-8384719812eb.filesusr.com/ugd/c9f49b_93809c4776b74bf6952050ea7fe0e08f.pdf

That's a pretty big gap, if HyperloopTT's description of the regulations is accurate.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2020, 01:27:40 pm »
https://defector.com/virgin-hyperloop-has-invented-the-worlds-crappiest-high-speed-rail/

LOL!  :-DD
Rather dumb article full of FUD frankly. They call it slow but fail to realize or mention that you cannot reach higher speeds in such a short section, you need to build a longer tube to do so. You simply won't be able to break before reaching it's end. Or that it's only a test track to demonstrate technology. And frankly acceleration is pretty good to indicate it can travel much faster. Then claiming BS like this:
Quote
dumping resources beyond counting into inventing some shit that already exists when for a fraction of the cost and in a fraction of the time they could just purchase or at the very least copy what is already working just fine even in backward-ass doofus countries like freaking Italy.
What is that wonderful "shit" that already works? The fastest trains in Italy have 300 km/h operational speed.
I don't say that it's good or necessarily viable. But diminishing it by throwing random shit is not a good argument against it. Also currently reachable speed is the least important part of it. Because as long as they get the vacuum thing right, there is nothing fundamental that prevents it from reaching high speeds with maglev.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 01:54:42 pm by wraper »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2020, 02:00:13 pm »
were whisked in a pod that was levitated by magnets inside a vacuum tube to 107 m.p.h. in 6.25 seconds"

If I did the math right, the passengers were subjected to 0.8 g-forces? One of the other Hyperloop operators (HyperloopTT) said a year ago that their hyperloop between Chicago and Cleveland had been reduced to 0.1g acceleration because of Federal Railroad Comission compliance  reasons. See pg. 30 of this PDF: https://8508ab36-da5a-4138-b6f6-8384719812eb.filesusr.com/ugd/c9f49b_93809c4776b74bf6952050ea7fe0e08f.pdf

That's a pretty big gap, if HyperloopTT's description of the regulations is accurate.
Acceleration is high because otherwise they would not be able to reach even this measly speed over a short track. If they build track which is tens of kilometers long, nothing prevents them from using slower acceleration.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2020, 05:54:53 pm »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2020, 06:29:21 pm »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA

I don't read eevblog to follow youtube links. If you can't take the time to present whatever argument you believe from the video, you'll just have to fail to communicate.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2020, 10:57:33 pm »
You are very wise. I, OTOH, am having supper so gave it a whirl. The opening screenshot gave the game away - it is thuderf00t, of course. Had to skip to some random part to find out what his beef is, and that was where he was ranting that the capsule had windows. Which it does. As, of course, do the trains that run under the English Channel - maybe he BUSTED those in a previous cheque video.

Lost the will to live at that point.
 

Offline bson

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2020, 12:43:18 am »
California is a very mountainous state.  I believe the current estimate for CAHSR is $68b, much of which is tunneling costs - and Hyperloop would need some very long railway tunnels as well.  (And that is almost certainly a sales-pitch underestimate, on the premise that once it's obvious it can't be met they will raise it to $80b, and sell it using the argument that since we're already $50b in... and then repeat until the project is done at a final cost closer to $200b.) Even if Hyperloop builds it out for $40b (a private enterprise will certainly cost less than a government one), if it somehow magically gets right-of-way through populated areas (CAHSR expects to reuse existing right of way, but no cities in the SF Bay Area will want an elevated railway, and will go to court to prevent it).  $25 per ride isn't going to begin to cover capital costs.  Even $100 would be optimistic.  (CAHSR will almost certainly be run at an operational loss, while having no capital costs, and they'll probably land around $100 - sufficiently subsidized to compete with air travel.)   Just a 5% interest payment on $40b is $2b...  That's the equivalent of 80 million trips at $25.  Just for the interest, never mind principal, maintenance, operational costs, reinvestment (improvements, rolling stock replacement, etc), facilities, terminals (for what, 200 million trips per year in a state with 40 million people???)...  It's just not a serious project.  Maybe Texas (which is much flatter, and has a much more sensible HSR project going).  This is separate from all the other technical objections, but if Hyperloop manages to economically bore railway tunnels they could run conventional tracks when the other 1950s poplit scifi stuff is abandoned.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2020, 01:53:46 am »
I don't see any technological reason that the hyperloop could not be implemented, but to say that I'm skeptical of it ever being practical or economical would be an understatement. I just don't see much advantage over traditional high speed rail. It could be faster for the energy used, but any savings are likely offset by the much higher cost of the construction and maintenance.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2020, 03:19:47 am »
You are very wise. I, OTOH, am having supper so gave it a whirl. The opening screenshot gave the game away - it is thuderf00t, of course. Had to skip to some random part to find out what his beef is, and that was where he was ranting that the capsule had windows. Which it does. As, of course, do the trains that run under the English Channel - maybe he BUSTED those in a previous cheque video.

Lost the will to live at that point.


He does ramble on a bit, but you missed the point of his vide.  I have been on that train that runs under the English Channel and couldn’t see any fish out the window.  Have you?  Which is exactly one of the points he was making in the video.  Another is it didn’t transport the riders anywhere.  They got on, where they got off. 
Another is did he build the hyper loop in London or New York where people are going to ride it?  It’s opening this year. 
 
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2020, 03:22:59 am »
I don't see any technological reason that the hyperloop could not be implemented, but to say that I'm skeptical of it ever being practical or economical would be an understatement. I just don't see much advantage over traditional high speed rail. It could be faster for the energy used, but any savings are likely offset by the much higher cost of the construction and maintenance.

There are some very difficult technical and safety issues which we don’t have solutions for.  One of the biggest is thermal expansion/contraction.  Other is maintains the vacuum. There are so many more.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2020, 03:25:37 am »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA

I don't read eevblog to follow youtube links. If you can't take the time to present whatever argument you believe from the video, you'll just have to fail to communicate.

Sad you don’t watch any of Dave’s videos. They are very good.  I’ve learned a lot from Dave’s videos as well as other videos posted by others.  You might want to give watching videos a try before you die.  You might learn something.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2020, 03:55:04 am »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA

I don't read eevblog to follow youtube links. If you can't take the time to present whatever argument you believe from the video, you'll just have to fail to communicate.

Sad you don’t watch any of Dave’s videos. They are very good.  I’ve learned a lot from Dave’s videos as well as other videos posted by others.  You might want to give watching videos a try before you die.  You might learn something.

That would be an invalid leap of logic, which doesn't surprise me. Not following blind forum video links to lengthy videos that rarely are worth watching does not mean I never watch videos. I do follow various channels from a proper interface where I can see the author, title, date, and length BEFORE I choose to view them now, later, or never.

Now if you weren't someone with a history of linking videos instead of using words and the video had a proper summary of something that interested me greatly, that might be another story.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2020, 04:56:14 am »
Quote
but you missed the point of his vide

I don't think so. I am sure he achieved what he set out to do.

Quote
I have been on that train that runs under the English Channel and couldn’t see any fish out the window.

And yet there are windows. So perhaps having windows doesn't invalidate the entire tunnel design after all, eh.

Quote
Another is it didn’t transport the riders anywhere.  They got on, where they got off.

Sorry, you've lost me there - should they have been made to walk back or something?

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2020, 09:33:13 am »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.
https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA
I don't read eevblog to follow youtube links. If you can't take the time to present whatever argument you believe from the video, you'll just have to fail to communicate.

You are free to ignore all video links, you don't have the click on them.
Going out of your way to tell everyone that you don't follow video links says more about you than it does the person posting the link.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2020, 09:35:03 am »
I don't see any technological reason that the hyperloop could not be implemented, but to say that I'm skeptical of it ever being practical or economical would be an understatement. I just don't see much advantage over traditional high speed rail. It could be faster for the energy used, but any savings are likely offset by the much higher cost of the construction and maintenance.

^^^ This.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2020, 09:40:34 am »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA
Frankly that video consists from a lot of rambling and barely any proof it's a scam. Same information could be easily presented in less than 5 minutes instead of 25.
 

Offline hans

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2020, 11:57:21 am »
I think thunderf00t's sceptism is well in place. I don't really care that much about the speeds this test run has achieved.. that's a limitation of the test track length and reasonable acceleration forces. It's hilarious, that's all. But the whole look and feel of the program is so dumbed down. Look, we have a pod in a tube and it moves! Okay, and what about the rest? So many key points or details unanswered..

I think the potential hazards of a sudden decompression are real. If a tree or some other big object (helicopter, recreational airplane, etc.) falls onto a hyperloop, is it going to suddenly decompress? What is going to happen with the pods in that section of the loop? Is it technically even *feasible* to create multiple vacuum sections for added safety? Are there vacuum doors that can seal well and fast enough for pods to enter the hyperloop or sections of loop? What if those doors fail? Are suddenly all pods of the loop in danger because of a vacuum leak?
I haven't seen any mention of doors. There is freaking train track *inside* the door after all. Maybe a small section of discontinuity is fine for the pod near a station.. but maybe it is not at full speed.

Then is the potential energy of the created vacuum. Just look at the scale of those numbers; multiply them by 10s or 100s of km and you have a ticking bomb on the ground. For that reason I'm actually quite happy planes fly at >30kft. If an airframe decompression happens at that altitude, pilots will deploy oxygen masks and descend the plane rapidly to 10k ft or so to regain a survivable atmospheric pressure. (See Helios Airways Flight 522 to read what happens if you don't). What's the backup plan in a hyperloop if the loop or a pod suddenly decompresses? I can't think of many options. Are passengers going to be stuck on that journey (possibly with an oxygen mask)? What if some passengers didn't get the mask-memo and are unconscious after 30 seconds for the whole journey? Normally I'm not claustrophobic, but I think many people would suddenly be in that case..
That is... assuming that oxygen masks even work. After all we're in a near complete vacuum. Maybe people will just die within a few seconds because your body cannot contain the air within your lungs because of the expansion. I wouldn't get into a hyperloop if it doesn't have multiple redundant backup systems to be honest..

I think that latter point is alone to be skeptic about the Virgin test being actually performed at low pressure. Have they put those redundant safety systems in place at the test loop? Or have they tested without them, risking the lives of their highly positioned staff of the hyperloop project? Doubtful.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 12:04:13 pm by hans »
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2020, 12:00:15 pm »

You are free to ignore all video links, you don't have the click on them.
Going out of your way to tell everyone that you don't follow video links says more about you than it does the person posting the link.

Fair point. I allowed myself to become annoyed. Usually I am more tolerant.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2020, 12:43:13 pm »
I think thunderf00t's sceptism is well in place. I don't really care that much about the speeds this test run has achieved.. that's a limitation of the test track length and reasonable acceleration forces. It's hilarious, that's all. But the whole look and feel of the program is so dumbed down. Look, we have a pod in a tube and it moves! Okay, and what about the rest? So many key points or details unanswered..

I think the potential hazards of a sudden decompression are real. If a tree or some other big object (helicopter, recreational airplane, etc.) falls onto a hyperloop, is it going to suddenly decompress? What is going to happen with the pods in that section of the loop? Is it technically even *feasible* to create multiple vacuum sections for added safety? Are there vacuum doors that can seal well and fast enough for pods to enter the hyperloop or sections of loop? What if those doors fail? Are suddenly all pods of the loop in danger because of a vacuum leak?
I haven't seen any mention of doors. There is freaking train track *inside* the door after all. Maybe a small section of discontinuity is fine for the pod near a station.. but maybe it is not at full speed.



Then is the potential energy of the created vacuum. Just look at the scale of those numbers; multiply them by 10s or 100s of km and you have a ticking bomb on the ground. For that reason I'm actually quite happy planes fly at >30kft. If an airframe decompression happens at that altitude, pilots will deploy oxygen masks and descend the plane rapidly to 10k ft or so to regain a survivable atmospheric pressure. (See Helios Airways Flight 522 to read what happens if you don't). What's the backup plan in a hyperloop if the loop or a pod suddenly decompresses? I can't think of many options. Are passengers going to be stuck on that journey (possibly with an oxygen mask)? What if some passengers didn't get the mask-memo and are unconscious after 30 seconds for the whole journey? Normally I'm not claustrophobic, but I think many people would suddenly be in that case..
That is... assuming that oxygen masks even work. After all we're in a near complete vacuum. Maybe people will just die within a few seconds because your body cannot contain the air within your lungs because of the expansion. I wouldn't get into a hyperloop if it doesn't have multiple redundant backup systems to be honest..

I think that latter point is alone to be skeptic about the Virgin test being actually performed at low pressure. Have they put those redundant safety systems in place at the test loop? Or have they tested without them, risking the lives of their highly positioned staff of the hyperloop project? Doubtful.

That's what so many people either don't get, or choose to consciously ignore in pursuit of "the dream".
Many will compare them to planes, but what they don't realise it's actually opposite. If a plane decompresses then oxygen drops and it trivial to drop to safe altitude in time. Proven and foolproof in a small tube.
But with the Hyperloop you are trying to keep out pressure instead of keeping it in, in tubes hundreds of km long. A big failure doesn't mean decompression, it means implosion of some description.  The entire concept of making it work is practical insanity and doomed to failure.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2020, 01:14:28 pm »
A big failure doesn't mean decompression, it means implosion of some description.  The entire concept of making it work is practical insanity and doomed to failure.
All those examples of implosions and comparing them to Hyperloop are non informative BS to be frank. Imploding some tank which was designed to hold the pressure inside is not an indicator of how a properly designed vacuum container would perform. Say usual submarines operate at outside pressure of 30 times higher than atmospheric and nothing implodes. And deep diving submersibles with humans inside operated even at more than 1000 times of atmospheric pressure.
EDIT: and the pod is not much different from an airplane cabin at high altitude.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 05:16:03 pm by wraper »
 

Offline madires

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2020, 01:34:43 pm »
Nope, but you can buy tickets for ICE, TGV, Shinkansen or other high speed trains which are running fine for decades.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail:
Quote
On 23 October 1903, the S&H-equipped railcar achieved a speed of 206.7 km/h (128.4 mph) and on 27 October the AEG-equipped railcar achieved 210.2 km/h (130.6 mph).[6] These trains demonstrated the feasibility of electric high-speed rail; however, regularly scheduled electric high-speed rail travel was still more than 30 years away.

And Hyperloop thinks that 100 mph are an achievement in 2020?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:41:47 pm by madires »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2020, 03:28:53 pm »
The Hyper-loop test was a scam.

https://youtu.be/VrbstnzbhZA

I don't read eevblog to follow youtube links. If you can't take the time to present whatever argument you believe from the video, you'll just have to fail to communicate.

Sad you don’t watch any of Dave’s videos. They are very good.  I’ve learned a lot from Dave’s videos as well as other videos posted by others.  You might want to give watching videos a try before you die.  You might learn something.

That would be an invalid leap of logic, which doesn't surprise me. Not following blind forum video links to lengthy videos that rarely are worth watching does not mean I never watch videos. I do follow various channels from a proper interface where I can see the author, title, date, and length BEFORE I choose to view them now, later, or never.

Now if you weren't someone with a history of linking videos instead of using words and the video had a proper summary of something that interested me greatly, that might be another story.

Dude sounds like you are part of the vacuum tube generation.  Time to get with all of the new technology. YouTube is filled with excellent videos from very credible sources.  The material can be explained far more accurately and in greater detail in a video.  I’d sure like to see a paper teaching someone how to solder.  In a video the concept can be clearly explained in 5 minutes.

Yes there is a lot of noise on YouTube, but dang dude, why would you not watch the videos I posted from Sandy, Dave and others. Why would you want to spend hours reading Sandy’s 150 page report on Tesla when you can watch his 15 minute video and get to see exactly what he is talking about.  I’m not posting links to shitty videos.  But I sure have seen links posted here on bogus papers.  Crap on how bio-fuel is carbon neutral.  Or that the Great Barrier Reef is dying.  Or the total BS claim man caused climate change isn’t happening.  Were some of those your posts?

 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2020, 04:50:32 pm »
Maybe a more condensed objective view. The main challenges in a hyperloop system currently seem to be:
  • Safety
    • Pod Decompression
    • Tube Decompression
    • Escape
  • Reliability
    • Partial Vacuum Maintenance
  • Cost effectiveness
    • Achieving the above with cost-benefit attractive compared to existing solutions
Each of those key points can be broken down into much finer points but the above give an overview of the major unique challenges for a hyperloop system to be practical.

Virgin Hyperloop Demo

The demo by Virgin Hyperloop shows that they are capable of building a maglev train capable of carrying people in a tube evacuated to 100 Pa [see above video description]. I don't think whether or not a maglev train with a passenger pod running in partial vacuum tube can be built at such a small scale is a major question but the competency to do so is at least a minimum requirement. So as Thunderfoot also said, good on them for at least achieving that. However, I don't see any breakthroughs or innovations as far as addressing the main issues. The tubes shown in the Virgin Hyperloop Demo look like conventional pressure vessels/pipes with conventional fittings, their work so far has been to attach rails and LED lights to the interior of the pipe and make a passenger pod.

Cost
I'll get keen if I can see some evidence of developments which actually solve the main challenges. Perhaps some modular track system with associated mass production facilities; an array of highly DFM optimised tube sections which can be bolted together to enable all required functions including terminals, vacuum maintenance, emergency escapes and just curved sections (only straight sections so far). Whether or not the track system can be cost optimised to a point that the additional cost of the enclosing tube beats running costs and performance limits of existing maglev and air travel is the most important question imo.

Safety
A means of automatic, high-reliability isolation of breached sections would be an important innovation to improve reliability and safety. Such a system might also be able to dump air into the beached section to remove pressure differential for best safety.

Partial Vacuum Maintenance
I don't think creating and maintaining the vacuum itself in terms of sealing and leakage is going to be big issue given we already have similar and matured technology in the form of gas transmission pipelines. Gas lines already criss-cross the country and operate in excess of 10x the pressure differential (1050 kPa) of a Hyperloop with very tight leakage allowances since they of course contain explosive gasses. Had a gander in AS 2885 (the Australian Standard of gas and petroleum pipelines) and pipes are meant to be "leak tight" but permit an "allowable fluid variation" of 400 L/24 h for undeveloped rural land down to 20 L/24 h for high density in pipe volumes up to 25 ML. Maybe someone with a mate in the gas industry can comment?

Vacuum Structural Concerns
Decompression and vacuum pressure are also not the biggest issues. Even in Thunderfoot's video he goes to great pains to ramble about how a pressurised pod is no different to a plane cabin for the most part. Implosion wouldn't be a major failure mode, the tubes are under pressure all the time, if anything a local failure results in less stress on the tubes not some runaway implosion :palm: Videos you've seen of tankers or barrels being imploded are not analogous, those are vessels designed for a completely different load being subjected to the inverse of that load. Since vacuum vessel walls are in compression rather than tension they need to be designed to resist buckling, that's why vacuum hoses are typically ribbed. The buckling failure mode you see in tanker implosions are not a relevant concern for a properly designed vacuum vessel. It's like being worried about steel I-beams being weak because steel cable bends so easily when you compress it :palm: different loads, different design optimisations. The actual stresses are much lower than most pressure vessels due to an absolute limit of pressure at 1atm but the tangential area moment of inertia needs to be bigger to prevent buckling (hence ribbing).

On that point about structural design of tubes, I'm surprised no one has presented anything like a ribbed or thick-walled tube structure or even a double cylinder similar to the "double bubble" fuselage like the Aurora D8 (https://youtu.be/H7Z04Tl1-1Q) or maybe they have and it hasn't cross my field of view yet. Would be nice to see a video or article which sums up the different companies and their innovations if any.

I've given some counter arguments to points people have raised against a Hyperloops but don't take that to mean I think they're a practical idea. I've started this off by offering my take on the main issues the concept faces and provided a constructive take on what I want to see done. I also don't see Virgin Hyperloop or any of the other Hyperloop startups as yet being likely to succeed. What I don't agree with is some of the poor reasoning and sources presented. Thunderfoot is especially guilty of this, citing and responding to incorrect second-hand and in many cases MSM sources targeted at a general public lay audience then critising it for lack of technical rigor might as well be straw manning e.g. Thunderfoot claims that Elon claims to have invented the hyperloop by playing second-hand sources to build his strawman then attacking it by saying Robert Goddard came up with the idea first when the truth is in the original paper (first-hand source! if you think its edited archived source) they literally, explicitly credit the idea of trains in vacuum tubes to Robert Goddard, Rand and ET3. You should realise he's playing anti-Musk sentiments for views, he makes videos aimed to stroke outrage not provide information. If you want to actually examine an idea for its merit then examine the actual idea not some crappy clickbait trying to sponge hype for views i.e. look at the original paper or other first hand sources by the companies working on the idea. That being said I'm sure some of you are here to just circlejerk about how some rich people are wasting money and not to do any meaningful "debunking". No complaints about most of the debunking videos I see Dave do, they are normally at least examining first-party claims but Thunderfoot is a farce. I don't want to see you BSing yourself into trying to get an easy takedown.

Edit: As for the concern that air leaking into the tube would cause any danger I don't know where that's coming from but that'll just cause drag and make the train operate at a lower speed or the train can otherwise initiate breaking as per the original paper or other videos (less "bearish") videos about hyperloop. The original paper also has full details of the proposed workings of the hyperloop including safety measures and quantified technical details, don't listen to Thunderfoot's alternative reality strawman hyperloop  :bullshit:
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 06:25:40 pm by sandalcandal »
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2020, 05:29:53 pm »
I had some thoughts about stations and came to conclusion it's not that big of a problem at all. Sealing of the tube can be done just as on the video. And stations just as usual train stations. People board the train just as in usual station. Then train enters a short section of tube, then a section of rail is retracted sideways (proven technology) to clear obstruction, then tube opening is closed just as on the video. On the other end of this section is a somewhat wider chamber with the same method of sealing and the same retractable rail. Once train enters and tube is sealed from the outside, air is pumped out, internal seal opens, rail is moved, train passes further, rail is retracted, seal closed. And train can move forward normally.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 05:58:12 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2020, 05:33:21 pm »
That - sandalscandal's take - is the kind of  examination I could read all day. Well, the minute or so it actually took. It will be a sad day when he discovers 25-min ad-supported video.

One thing I'd take issue with, though, is cost. It is fine to say, "Blimey, that's jolly expensive" but we aren't investors and we're not paying for it. Surely, the fact that someone is coughing up means it's affordable to them.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2020, 05:44:07 pm »
Even in Thunderfoot's video he goes to great pains to ramble about how a pressurised pod is no different to a plane cabin for the most part. Implosion wouldn't be a major failure mode, the tubes are under pressure all the time, if anything a local failure results in less stress on the tubes not some runaway implosion :palm: Videos you've seen of tankers or barrels being imploded are not analogous, those are vessels designed for a completely different load being subjected to the inverse of that load. Since vacuum vessel walls are in compression rather than tension they need to be designed to resist buckling, that's why vacuum hoses are typically ribbed. The buckling failure mode you see in tanker implosions are not a relevant concern for a properly designed vacuum vessel. It's like being worried about steel I-beams being weak because steel cable bends so easily when you compress it :palm: different loads, different design optimisations. The actual stresses are much lower than most pressure vessels due to an absolute limit of pressure at 1atm but the tangential area moment of inertia needs to be bigger to prevent buckling (hence ribbing).
Yes, it's like taking a bridge, turning it upside down, then rambling that bridges are impossible because they fall apart.
 
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Offline Domagoj T

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2020, 09:06:01 pm »
Edit: As for the concern that air leaking into the tube would cause any danger I don't know where that's coming from but that'll just cause drag and make the train operate at a lower speed or the train can otherwise initiate breaking as per the original paper or other videos (less "bearish") videos about hyperloop. The original paper also has full details of the proposed workings of the hyperloop including safety measures and quantified technical details, don't listen to Thunderfoot's alternative reality strawman hyperloop  :bullshit:
IIRC In an earlier video Thunderfoot's concern was that in case of a catastrophic breach of tube (for example a truck crashing into it, or sabotage) where air can freely enter the tube, you get an inrush of air at about the speed of sound which will turn any capsule it encounters into a bullet.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2020, 09:43:13 pm »
Here I visualized how train could enter the tube. Nothing extraordinary.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 09:45:20 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2020, 10:06:21 pm »
Made myself watch OP Thunderfoot video https://youtu.be/2h6Cz4hwuEI despite his annoying schoolboy attitude and I've made some notes on what his actual points are between the rambling and attempted rage baiting
  • 0:00-2:05 Lots of money has been spent/invested but no working system yet
  • 2:05-5:15 Theranos tangent and likeness citing second-party claims (no actual arguments)
  • 5:15-7:20 Elon Musk stole the vacuum tube train idea from Robert Goddard
  • 7:20-8:00 Previous vacuum train ideas were impractical
  • 8:00-9:00 Empty straw manning
  • 9:00-11:35 Boring Company City Loops
  • 11:35-13:29 Lack of Progress
  • 13:29-14:23 Air bearings
  • 14:23-23:35 Slow Progress
  • 23:35-24:20 Videos Videos
  • 24:20-25:21 Boring Company Loop outro
1. Lots of money has indeed been invested into companies working on hyperloops with grand promises but nothing delivered. Not starting with a lie afaik.

2. Theranos is indeed a well known fraud. If you want an actual informational video about Theranos I recommend https://youtu.be/3CccfnRpPtM and https://youtu.be/qUFHEZOfQ0k However, immediately associating it with hyperloop is a hasty generalisation probably designed to immediately cast the subject in a poor light to help setup the rest of his rant. Throughout the video he likens Musk to Elizabeth Holmes as though he's some how getting rich off the idea and investment money going into it  :-// in case you don't know he has no active involvement beyond SpaceX running the Hyperloop pod student competition.

3. Thunderfoot's assertion Elon Musk stole the credit for the vacuum tube train idea from Robert Goddard Completely false, as per my previous post, the original paper specifically credits the idea of vacuum tube trains to Robert Goddard, Rand and ET3.
Quote from: Hyperloop Alpha
Many ideas for a system with most of those properties have been proposed and should be acknowledged, reaching as far back as Robert Goddard’s to proposals in recent decades by the Rand Corporation and ET3.

3/4. "There is absolutely nothing new or novel about the concept of the Hyperloop"-Thunderf00t. The original paper attempts to propose meaningful changes to the concept to make it feasible not that Thunderfoot would let the truth get in the way of a good non-factual rant. A key point made in the paper is that hard vacuums proposed in previous iterations are impractical and difficult thus a low vacuum system should be used rather than a hard vacuum.
Quote from: Hyperloop Alpha
The problem with this approach is that it is incredibly hard to maintain a near vacuum in a room, let alone 700 miles (round trip) of large tube with dozens of station gateways and thousands of pods entering and exiting every day. All it takes is one leaky seal or a small crack somewhere in the hundreds of miles of tube and the whole system stops working.
The main changes to the vacuum train concept which the Hyperloop proposes are: low pressure instead of vacuum, electric fan compressor to overcome Kantrowitz Limit, above ground pylons with heavy prefab for cost and pylon design+telescoping sections for earthquake resistance and PV for self-power.

5. Nothing of substance here from Thunderfoot, just straw manning and made up delusions. The original paper has detailed cost estimates with breakdowns but any actual analysis or discussion of those numbers are probably beyond the target audience or presenter.

6. Thunderfoot gives no basis for his deluded claims again straw manning AND makes a false analogy by saying two superficially similar concepts are fungible. The Hyperloop is meant to solve high speed regional travel and thus requires very high speed achieved through partially evacuated tubes. The Boring Company and associated Loops are meant to solve congestion in high-density American cities, that's why they're underground instead of on pylons like Hyperloop, the main competition of the Boring Company tunnels is flying cars :-DD

7. Not much substance or analysis here Thunderfoot just playing clips from MSM  :-// Also not much substance from here on.
8. New third party commercial designs don't use the fan or airbearings which isn't a lie afaik. Keep in mind the original paper also uses maglev for propulsion, the fan is for over coming the Kantrowitz Limit at high speed.
9. He's just repeating: Nothing meeting end goals has been done yet
10. This part should tell you his real motivation, its a topic that generates lots of views.
11. Ending on an outro showing a completely different product. Again, should show you how much analysis and research he's actually done  :bullshit:

Shallow intellectualism and outrage bait masquerading as "debunking" is what the video is. Just as bad as the MSM videos he pretends to "debunk". Makes me want to puke! 
The video starts with factual BULLSHIT for the first half, followed by 15 min of irrelevant crap and repeating "there's nothing here yet". There is absolutely no content of value here, no insightful let alone honest investigation of the topic, just deceitful outrage stirring. He starts you rolling with manufactured lies followed by "oh they haven't done it yet [so clearly they never will]"  for 15 min :horse: All his "debunking" for this topic is half-truths at best and straight lies designed to stir you up. This message which he plasters in your face at the start of the video:

is a lie.

Now I'm not saying all his videos are lies, honestly with the low hanging fruit he normally goes for it's hard to be "wrong". I also don't personally see Hyperloops becoming practical and in-use in the next 20 years let alone on the timelines companies are claiming. There's definitely lots of issues for Hyperloop to be practical and the original paper certainly doesn't have all the answers. I definitely don't see any current companies being on a fast rack to success. But for the love of God don't get your news and opinions from Thunderf00t videos, they're outrage videos not investigative news or analyses. If your idea of a good time is having your jimmies rustled then feel free to "enjoy" his content but if you want factual information then shut it out.  :--

Edit: Saw his 2016 video on the Hyperloop, a lot better than the latest two, not nearly as trashy. I wonder what happened?  :-//
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 11:30:52 pm by sandalcandal »
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Offline bson

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2020, 10:11:19 pm »
If a tree or some other big object (helicopter, recreational airplane, etc.) falls onto a hyperloop, is it going to suddenly decompress? What is going to happen with the pods in that section of the loop?
The entire section will have to be pressurized, assuming there are locks between sections that permit doing so, otherwise the whole system will need to be pressurized.   It's just a matter of having enough valves to prevent explosive repressurization.  But Thunderfoot is right in comparing it Fyre Festival - it's just not possible within the financial envelope imagined.  Also, forget about 600mph, it's not just about air resistance but sheer kinetic energy, but maybe it will run at 300mph, so a little bit faster than CAHSR (where it will be able to actually go that fast, meaning outside urban areas).  That's still not competitive with flying, meaning people who travel for business won't use it (at least not if they value their time).  The routes and capacity will preclude solving the real traffic problems, which is 99% work commuting and requires LOCAL transit, not a SF-to-LA "vacation line".  For vacation travel BTW, run it to Las Vegas.  In other words, a casino train.  THAT I think would be marketable.  Still, not economical, but at least it would find an audience.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2020, 10:22:16 pm »
Also, forget about 600mph, it's not just about air resistance but sheer kinetic energy, but maybe it will run at 300mph, so a little bit faster than CAHSR
What's wrong about kinetic energy and why should it limit the speed? Air resistance? It's specially made to avoid air resistance.
Quote
CAHSR
More like CRAPHSR
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2020, 11:10:50 pm »
Edit: As for the concern that air leaking into the tube would cause any danger I don't know where that's coming from but that'll just cause drag and make the train operate at a lower speed or the train can otherwise initiate breaking as per the original paper or other videos (less "bearish") videos about hyperloop. The original paper also has full details of the proposed workings of the hyperloop including safety measures and quantified technical details, don't listen to Thunderfoot's alternative reality strawman hyperloop  :bullshit:
IIRC In an earlier video Thunderfoot's concern was that in case of a catastrophic breach of tube (for example a truck crashing into it, or sabotage) where air can freely enter the tube, you get an inrush of air at about the speed of sound which will turn any capsule it encounters into a bullet.
That would require a shockwave breech to in order occur. Any breach is going to have a flow rate limited by the size of that breach. That limited flow rate needs to gradually fill the entire volume of this km long pipe. The fact it's coming in at the speed of sound matters much less than the rate mass is coming in. It's not like a breech is going to result in pods hitting a 1 atm wall of air at the speed of sound, unless its a massive breach like an entire section sheared clean off which is highly unlikely to occur from a truck somehow flying up to the tube on top of a pylon and getting a clean cut. Perhaps if some terrorists try to blow a section up?

Vacuum gun experiments use a bursting disc to trigger a shockwave onto a very light, well-sealed projectile in a very long tube. This is what a less professional/ideal vacuum gun does https://youtu.be/bAKqzAzfXKQ?t=430 Given most recent designs seem to forfeit the tight sealing idea for no compressor and more open space that seems even less likely to be a catastrophic issue and would be even less with automatic isolation as I'd like to see.

Edit: His attempt at a vacuum failure demo is pathetic, you could blow a ball out of a tube harder than that, I wonder if you'd get a stronger effect from just tilting the tube down. You can hear the rush of air flowing in "gradually" compared to the shockwave bang in purpose designed vacuum guns.
Edit2: I'll admit I wasn't aware of this vacuum gun concern before hand.
Edit3: I'd be a lot less displeased if that first 2016 video was the only point of discussion.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 12:25:48 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2020, 03:05:29 am »
Here I visualized how train could enter the tube. Nothing extraordinary.



That might work on paper, but not in the real wold.  Have you ever worked with vacuum chambers? 

Something else not sure is Thunderf00t mentioned is what happen at thar speed in the capsule hits a object say the size of a grain of sand or a paint chip?  That would easily puncture the capsule leading to immediate depressurization of the capsule.  Within 30 seconds or so they would be dead.

Guess we could use something like armor platted capsules which might work.  But then that will sure add to the cost of propelling the capsule.   
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2020, 03:29:10 am »
Here I visualized how train could enter the tube. Nothing extraordinary.



That might work on paper, but not in the real wold.  Have you ever worked with vacuum chambers? 

Something else not sure is Thunderf00t mentioned is what happen at thar speed in the capsule hits a object say the size of a grain of sand or a paint chip?  That would easily puncture the capsule leading to immediate depressurization of the capsule.  Within 30 seconds or so they would be dead.

Guess we could use something like armor platted capsules which might work.  But then that will sure add to the cost of propelling the capsule.

It's called an airlock, something that works quite well in the real world. Additionally, we're not talking hard vacuum, but a more practical low pressure.

As for a object that small hitting a capsule in space, we do know what happens and how to deal with it, but that's irrelevant. We're not talking the kind of speed differentials you find in space. We're talking airplane speeds, and airplanes shrug off the small stuff all the time. Large birds can be dangerous, but we won't find any of those in the tunnel. Your scenario isn't realistic.

But in the event of leaks, there are a number of solutions already thought of, depending on the severity of the problem. Maybe you should read Musk's original paper on the subject. You'd get more basic facts right.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2020, 03:38:07 am »
Something else not sure is Thunderf00t mentioned is what happen at thar speed in the capsule hits a object say the size of a grain of sand or a paint chip?
It's not a speed of satellite in space for grain of sand to puncture anything. You need more than order of magnitude higher speed for it to puncture anything. Nor a small hole is enough for rapid depressurization. I can mention ISS as example, they have a small hole from space debris collision from time to time. Nor all of the air got away, nor anybody died. As of what happens at depressurization, obviously there should be safety valves on the tube to let the air in in case of emergency. FYI at 12 km altitude (39k ft) where passenger planes are flying, atmospheric pressure is below 0.2 atm (instead of 1 atm at sea level) which is almost vacuum as far as human organism is concerned and you will lose consciousness if do not put an oxygen mask on your face within a few seconds.
 

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2020, 09:38:38 am »
A big failure doesn't mean decompression, it means implosion of some description.  The entire concept of making it work is practical insanity and doomed to failure.
All those examples of implosions and comparing them to Hyperloop are non informative BS to be frank. Imploding some tank which was designed to hold the pressure inside is not an indicator of how a properly designed vacuum container would perform. Say usual submarines operate at outside pressure of 30 times higher than atmospheric and nothing implodes. And deep diving submersibles with humans inside operated even at more than 1000 times of atmospheric pressure.

Those vacuum containers aren't hundred of km long. Good luck.
 

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2020, 09:44:38 am »
The demo by Virgin Hyperloop shows that they are capable of building a maglev train capable of carrying people in a tube evacuated to 100 Pa [see above video description]. I don't think whether or not a maglev train with a passenger pod running in partial vacuum tube can be built at such a small scale is a major question but the competency to do so is at least a minimum requirement. So as Thunderfoot also said, good on them for at least achieving that. However, I don't see any breakthroughs or innovations as far as addressing the main issues. The tubes shown in the Virgin Hyperloop Demo look like conventional pressure vessels/pipes with conventional fittings, their work so far has been to attach rails and LED lights to the interior of the pipe and make a passenger pod.

And that's marketing trickery 101. They'll milk it for years.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2020, 11:27:25 am »
A big failure doesn't mean decompression, it means implosion of some description.  The entire concept of making it work is practical insanity and doomed to failure.
All those examples of implosions and comparing them to Hyperloop are non informative BS to be frank. Imploding some tank which was designed to hold the pressure inside is not an indicator of how a properly designed vacuum container would perform. Say usual submarines operate at outside pressure of 30 times higher than atmospheric and nothing implodes. And deep diving submersibles with humans inside operated even at more than 1000 times of atmospheric pressure.

Those vacuum containers aren't hundred of km long. Good luck.
So what? It does not become easier to implode because of it's length. I see no issue at least for this particular argument. It's like saying that tube transferring natural gas should explode because of it's length (which actually is way more likely to happen).
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2020, 12:17:43 pm »
Quote
And that's marketing trickery 101.

Yes! Undoubtedly.

Which is why it's daft to debunk such stuff - it's made to impress whoever non-techy needs impressing, and trying to extract hard technical details... stuff is going to be glossed over at minimum.

But... this is Virgin. Recall when they started Virgin Galactic, and you could say pretty much exactly the same thing about that then. Now, they are very nearly going. Branson has managed similar with his airline and trains - there was a lot of sceptism that he could pull them off, but he did in the end. Yes, the trains are shit if you're a passenger but that's Brit trains for you :)

I think the only thing you can really take away from this is that Virgin's marketing videos tend to be quite a bit ahead of reality, so they probably aren't as up to speed as they make out. But will this actually materialise? Sure. Branson has done the maths. It may end up costing his investors a fortune but I reckon it's going to happen at some point and in some form, even if it's just for the prestige of being able to say they did it first.
 

Offline dropkick

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2020, 10:44:00 pm »
Nope. The California "high speed rail" project is a failed boondoggle already. Only a few tens of miles have been built in the middle of nowhere. Many of the physical routes have been changed from something sane and logical to just plain stupid so that certain travel time requirements in the government bids were met.  I know of one town where they wanted to run it right down the middle of the town, killing dozens of businesses (some are manufacturing/processing and have EPA grandfathering and couldn't be moved elsewhere without going bankrupt due to idiotic regulations).  This because putting it on the edge of town would add like 2 minutes.  The train never has been "high-speed". The top speed is 85mph. It was just a conventional railroad. No new technology. And let’s not mention the various mountain ranges to cross or some of the largest earthquake faults in North America.  How long would it take to repair an earthquake-caused break? Years?  Regular tracks and roads can be measured in days. Or just fly over the problem!

No one wants the people rail but the kickback-receiving politicians.  The rest of us can just get on a plane.  There isn't a huge demand for SF-LA traffic anyway.  The airlines handle it just fine.  And you can already take the train there if you really want to, mostly tourists and it's a much prettier view than the inside of a tube.  Remember SF is 500+km away from LA. Most people from LA consider going to SF and northern California like traveling to another state.  Las Vegas is 200km closer and that’s a trip in itself!   It's not like a maglev trip 15 miles away to the other side of town for your daily commute.  You’d still have to drive an hour in traffic to the airport/suckport/blowport, go thru security for another hour, etc   There would just be no demand.  The LA area already has two commuter train systems which are somewhat usable, but since the LA area is 1000+ sq. miles, if you don't live near it, it is completely useless.  It’s not like the NY subway where everything is crammed onto the tip of an island. (There are buses of course which not that many people use and are completely subsidized by the government.)  So where is the suckport going to be? Probably nowhere convenient for 95% of people. The 5 or so major airports are much closer if you really need to go to SF and visit the poop and needle filled streets!
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2020, 01:31:11 am »
Do the math on California height speed rail.  What is the current projected cost to complete the project?  Take that number and decide that by the number of legal and illegal citizens in the state.  With Southwest and other airlines charging $100 for a flight from Oakland to Las Angles how many train tips will each illegal and legal citizen have to take to pay for the silly rail project?  I think last time I made the calculation it was 2,000 trips.  Then calculate the amount of time it would take every person to take that trip.  They’ll be dead.   The solution?  Increase the cost of the high-speed rail ticket $10,000.  People are going to pay that, right?  $100 by air, and $10,000 by rail.

Then we have to ask is rail earthquake proof like air traffic routes are?  The rail line will have to cross over several earth quake faults.  One of which in the past 200 years shifted the earth 20 feet sideways.  Would sure hate to be on that train when an earthquake happens  and there’s a new curve in the tack and 20 feet of it is missing.

And look at the other advantage of high speed rail.  The time savings.  High speed rail would take 4 - 4.5 travel time.  Airplane 45 minutes plus 1 hour for TSA unless you are TSA Pre.  Then it’s 15 minutes.  In just over 2 hours from Oakland I can be at anyone of 5 So Cal airports by air.  Or in 4.5 hours I can arrive in LA and take an Uber for another hour to get to one of the other airports.  Total travel time is now 5.5 hours by high speed rail.  But now lets factor in an hour to drive to the train station.  High speed rail is now 6.5 hours.  That’s longer than it would take me to drive. 

Yup, I can see why everyone who doesn’t have a brain is in favor of high speed rail.   
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2020, 01:45:06 am »
Do the math on California height speed rail.  What is the current projected cost to complete the project?  Take that number and decide that by the number of legal and illegal citizens in the state.  With Southwest and other airlines charging $100 for a flight from Oakland to Las Angles how many train tips will each illegal and legal citizen have to take to pay for the silly rail project?  I think last time I made the calculation it was 2,000 trips.  Then calculate the amount of time it would take every person to take that trip.  They’ll be dead.   The solution?  Increase the cost of the high-speed rail ticket $10,000.  People are going to pay that, right?  $100 by air, and $10,000 by rail.
It's a crap which turned several times more expensive that planned (even then it would be a very expensive shit) due to poor execution and uncontrolled hiring of money sucking consultants for which the main objective was sucking even more money. It's estimated to cost around $80 billion in total if finished. However your numbers are way off. CA population is 39.5 million, if you multiply it by $100 x 2000 it would be $7,9 trillion. Even if it was $10 per ticket, it still would be $790 billion.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 01:48:36 am by wraper »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2020, 02:18:55 am »
Do the math on California height speed rail.  What is the current projected cost to complete the project?  Take that number and decide that by the number of legal and illegal citizens in the state.  With Southwest and other airlines charging $100 for a flight from Oakland to Las Angles how many train tips will each illegal and legal citizen have to take to pay for the silly rail project?  I think last time I made the calculation it was 2,000 trips.  Then calculate the amount of time it would take every person to take that trip.  They’ll be dead.   The solution?  Increase the cost of the high-speed rail ticket $10,000.  People are going to pay that, right?  $100 by air, and $10,000 by rail.
It's a crap which turned several times more expensive that planned (even then it would be a very expensive shit) due to poor execution and uncontrolled hiring of money sucking consultants for which the main objective was sucking even more money. It's estimated to cost around $80 billion in total if finished. However your numbers are way off. CA population is 39.5 million, if you multiply it by $100 x 2000 it would be $7,9 trillion. Even if it was $10 per ticket, it still would be $790 billion.

Yeah, but you got my point. 
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2020, 07:28:25 am »
You're throwing in artificial constraints. Who said all passengers have to be residents of the state? Who said you can't make money on cargo runs? Outside of the current COVID conditions, a great deal of travel is done by tourists, both foreign and domestic.

That said, I agree that the issues for new high speed transport options are economic and political. If those ever get solved, none of the technical issues are showstoppers.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2020, 08:04:44 am »
Quote
The rest of us can just get on a plane.

Not for much longer. Turns out 1% of people cause half of aviation emissions and the US is way out in front of everyone else for making the atmosphere smelly. Surely can't be long before flights are reduced, either because they'll be the pollution low-hanging fruit, or the airlines have gone bust because of everyone working from home, etc.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2020, 08:11:42 am »
and the US is way out in front of everyone else for making the atmosphere smelly.

?
iratus parum formica
 

Offline dropkick

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2020, 07:26:24 pm »
No artificial contraints.  We already have a rail line up the coast which is what the tourists use/want.  Tourists are not going to sit in a dark tube. Actually there would probably be continous advertisments shown in place of windows! "Brought to you by Carl's Jr."

We already have plenty of rail lines for cargo from all our ports. How do you think all the junk from China gets into the rest of the U.S.?

This is simply a pipe dream. Even if it was finished, it's not high speed rail. Never has been or will be, other than words on paper. 20 years ago everyone was dreaming of a maglev from LA to Vegas. That never happened either!  It might have seen more use than an SF route, but we'd still be paying for it today and for another 20 years.

Long distance trains are for cargo, not people. I think we figured that out in the last century.

 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2020, 07:52:51 pm »
Why would anyone taker high speed rail from Sf to LA when they can do it on a MegaBus in the nearly the same amount of time?  Or drive?  Then you don’t have to rent a car in LA.

Why on earth would cargo be sent on high speed rail when traditional rail would get in there a few hours later.  If the cargo needs to get there fast it would be sent like it is now by plane or courier.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2020, 09:02:51 pm »
and the US is way out in front of everyone else for making the atmosphere smelly.

?

s/smelly/polluted
although to be fair CO2 doesn't smell that much.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2020, 09:07:55 pm »
Quote
Tourists are not going to sit in a dark tube.

Sure they will, at least until it becomes 'normal' and no longer a brownie-point selfie background.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2020, 11:23:33 pm »
Why would anyone taker high speed rail from Sf to LA when they can do it on a MegaBus in the nearly the same amount of time?  Or drive?  Then you don’t have to rent a car in LA.

Why on earth would cargo be sent on high speed rail when traditional rail would get in there a few hours later.  If the cargo needs to get there fast it would be sent like it is now by plane or courier.

At least do the research before you say these things. Driving time: 6 hours 16 minutes. Megabus: Doesn't serve SF. Other Bus times: 8-12 hours. Train time: 10 hours 35 minutes average. Flight time 1 hour 29 minutes, plus an hour or more at the airport. Proposed high-speed rail time: under 2 hours 40 minutes, which would compete directly with air travel.

If the option existed at a reasonable price, I'd use it if I wanted to make that trip. Cars and parking aren't necessarily needed at either end, as both LA and SF have mass transit options. Heck, riding the SF cable cars is something everyone should do at least once. Functional slice of history!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 11:29:07 pm by Nusa »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2020, 03:29:01 am »
Why would anyone taker high speed rail from Sf to LA when they can do it on a MegaBus in the nearly the same amount of time?  Or drive?  Then you don’t have to rent a car in LA.

Why on earth would cargo be sent on high speed rail when traditional rail would get in there a few hours later.  If the cargo needs to get there fast it would be sent like it is now by plane or courier.

At least do the research before you say these things. Driving time: 6 hours 16 minutes. Megabus: Doesn't serve SF. Other Bus times: 8-12 hours. Train time: 10 hours 35 minutes average. Flight time 1 hour 29 minutes, plus an hour or more at the airport. Proposed high-speed rail time: under 2 hours 40 minutes, which would compete directly with air travel.

If the option existed at a reasonable price, I'd use it if I wanted to make that trip. Cars and parking aren't necessarily needed at either end, as both LA and SF have mass transit options. Heck, riding the SF cable cars is something everyone should do at least once. Functional slice of history!

Dude where are you getting your times?  I was regularly flying from OAK to LA, that flight is 45 minutes.  San Diego and Portland are 1:30.   There are many people from SF who have taken MeagBus from SF to LA.  Yes it doesn’t depart from SF, but that doesn’t present people in SF from taking it.
How the heck is the high speed train going to take only 2:40?  No way.  That is not what they are saying.

How the heck are you coming up with those crazy drive time?  Are you driving at “normal” I5 traffic speed?  Or are you driving at 55?  It’s not unheard of to make that trip in just over 4 hours by car.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:32:51 am by DougSpindler »
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2020, 07:32:38 am »
How the heck are you coming up with those crazy drive time?  Are you driving at “normal” I5 traffic speed?  Or are you driving at 55?  It’s not unheard of to make that trip in just over 4 hours by car.

San Francisco to Los Angeles is about 400 miles via I-5 (the fastest route).  You would have to average 100 MPH to make that trip in 4 hours.  And you probably can't average more than 60 MPH for the first and last 50 miles of that trip (where the speed limits are 55 MPH and get lots of traffic).  The speed limit is 70 MPH for the middle portion of that trip, but 80 MPH is a fairly common actual speed. 

So "just over four hours"???  I don't think so, and I've driven that route many times.
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Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2020, 08:23:36 am »
Why would anyone taker high speed rail from Sf to LA when they can do it on a MegaBus in the nearly the same amount of time?  Or drive?  Then you don’t have to rent a car in LA.

Why on earth would cargo be sent on high speed rail when traditional rail would get in there a few hours later.  If the cargo needs to get there fast it would be sent like it is now by plane or courier.

At least do the research before you say these things. Driving time: 6 hours 16 minutes. Megabus: Doesn't serve SF. Other Bus times: 8-12 hours. Train time: 10 hours 35 minutes average. Flight time 1 hour 29 minutes, plus an hour or more at the airport. Proposed high-speed rail time: under 2 hours 40 minutes, which would compete directly with air travel.

If the option existed at a reasonable price, I'd use it if I wanted to make that trip. Cars and parking aren't necessarily needed at either end, as both LA and SF have mass transit options. Heck, riding the SF cable cars is something everyone should do at least once. Functional slice of history!

Dude where are you getting your times?  I was regularly flying from OAK to LA, that flight is 45 minutes.  San Diego and Portland are 1:30.   There are many people from SF who have taken MeagBus from SF to LA.  Yes it doesn’t depart from SF, but that doesn’t present people in SF from taking it.
How the heck is the high speed train going to take only 2:40?  No way.  That is not what they are saying.

How the heck are you coming up with those crazy drive time?  Are you driving at “normal” I5 traffic speed?  Or are you driving at 55?  It’s not unheard of to make that trip in just over 4 hours by car.

Google, of course. I did SFO-LAX (1:29 gate to gate, 56 mins in the air) instead of OAK-LAX (1:12 gate to gate, 56 min in the air). Clearly the difference is in ground waits and taxi times. Add having to arrive 90 minutes before departure time to be safe.

Megabus: their route map only shows the Los Angelas-Riverside-Las Vegas route running in California. If they had an SF run, that must have been before Covid and taken at least 7 hours. https://us.megabus.com/journey-planner/map

High speed rail time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail#Speed_requirements

Driving time: Googles driving time estimate. As the previous responder said, 4 hours doesn't pass the math check unless you aren't measuring from central SF to central LA, or drive way above the speed limit. Interestingly enough, LA to SF is 6:29, while SF to LA is 5:59. I can only assume there's some construction on the northbound route right now.

Most of this stuff was found on my very first search attempt...it's NOT hidden or hard to find if you bother to try at all.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 08:31:19 am by Nusa »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #117 on: November 20, 2020, 02:44:02 am »
This is clearly something you have never actually done.  There are times when I have been able to leave my house and fly and arrive in LA faster than I can drive from San Francisco to San Jose.  Any idea what the average speed folks are diving at on California’s highways?  Or on I5?

In your Google Map “calculations” are you using the setting the shortest route?  Fastest route?  Or the route which allows you to speed the most?
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #118 on: November 20, 2020, 03:16:34 am »
Any idea what the average speed folks are diving at on California’s highways?  Or on I5?

I drive from Northern California to Northern Washington several times a month, round trip.  Most of this is on I-5, with a posted speed limit of 70 MPH (or less).  I generally push it up to 80 MPH, and very few cars pass me.  The ones that do are occasionally spotted again, pulled over by the Highway Patrol, so most people stay within 10 MPH of the limit.  For a while I was driving I-5 between San Jose and Los Angeles about once a month, and 80 MPH was again the magic number.  What route and speed do *you* drive that gets you from SF to LA so quickly?

Yes, airplanes are usually faster, and the hassle is minimized if you can use the small local airports.  But SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, SAN, and the other big ones can be an ordeal and sometimes I would rather drive anyway.
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #119 on: November 20, 2020, 04:57:39 am »
Any idea what the average speed folks are diving at on California’s highways?  Or on I5?

I drive from Northern California to Northern Washington several times a month, round trip.  Most of this is on I-5, with a posted speed limit of 70 MPH (or less).  I generally push it up to 80 MPH, and very few cars pass me.  The ones that do are occasionally spotted again, pulled over by the Highway Patrol, so most people stay within 10 MPH of the limit.  For a while I was driving I-5 between San Jose and Los Angeles about once a month, and 80 MPH was again the magic number.  What route and speed do *you* drive that gets you from SF to LA so quickly?

Yes, airplanes are usually faster, and the hassle is minimized if you can use the small local airports.  But SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, SAN, and the other big ones can be an ordeal and sometimes I would rather drive anyway.


It must have been a while since you’ve been making that trip.  Speeds are a bit higher now, and there are les tickets being given thanks to apps like Waze.  It’s no uncommon for folks to be driving close to 100 and then there are the ones who have to be doing 110 - 120.

Pre-covid I was waking up at 7:00 for an 8:15 flight to LAX.  About 15 minutes to shower and get something to eat.  Drive to the airport and parking was 25 mins.  Just over an hour latter I was out of the airport at the curb waiting for Lyft.

I’m not saying everyone I’d doing this, but to say it can’t be done or it’s not happening would not be correct either.  When my co-workers drive to LA they are always talking about how “long” meaning how quickly they could get there.  Just over 4 hours is not uncommon. I think best I have ever done is 5, I’m more careful about fuel economy and the environment.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #120 on: November 20, 2020, 01:02:48 pm »
It must have been a while since you’ve been making that trip.  Speeds are a bit higher now, and there are les tickets being given thanks to apps like Waze.  It’s no uncommon for folks to be driving close to 100 and then there are the ones who have to be doing 110 - 120.

Pre-covid I was waking up at 7:00 for an 8:15 flight to LAX.  About 15 minutes to shower and get something to eat.  Drive to the airport and parking was 25 mins.  Just over an hour latter I was out of the airport at the curb waiting for Lyft.

I’m not saying everyone I’d doing this, but to say it can’t be done or it’s not happening would not be correct either.  When my co-workers drive to LA they are always talking about how “long” meaning how quickly they could get there.  Just over 4 hours is not uncommon. I think best I have ever done is 5, I’m more careful about fuel economy and the environment.
That calls for $490+surcharge speeding fine and a point on your record if you get caught.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #121 on: November 21, 2020, 01:45:33 am »
Like I said, you clearly aren't measuring from San Francisco, but from wherever you are in the rather gigantic bay area -- that's how you're shaving an hour off so easily. The "safe" level of speeding, which is about 80, by itself isn't enough. The BART train from OAK to downtown SF takes 40 minutes, and driving that route is closer to an hour with normal traffic.

I had to giggle at "the best I've ever done is 5", while implying that 4 hours is typical. I'm going to say that googles 6 hour estimate from downtown SF to downtown SF isn't that far off. No fair counting wherever you are as downtown. How long does it take you to drive to Fishermans Wharf? Add that time to your SF to LA trip time.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 01:47:07 am by Nusa »
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #122 on: November 21, 2020, 06:11:56 am »
Like I said, you clearly aren't measuring from San Francisco, but from wherever you are in the rather gigantic bay area -- that's how you're shaving an hour off so easily. The "safe" level of speeding, which is about 80, by itself isn't enough. The BART train from OAK to downtown SF takes 40 minutes, and driving that route is closer to an hour with normal traffic.

I had to giggle at "the best I've ever done is 5", while implying that 4 hours is typical. I'm going to say that googles 6 hour estimate from downtown SF to downtown SF isn't that far off. No fair counting wherever you are as downtown. How long does it take you to drive to Fishermans Wharf? Add that time to your SF to LA trip time.

Dude are you on crack?   Where are you getting these bogus times?   BART train from OAK to downtown SF takes 40 minutes.  I’ve been taking BART or years from the East Bay to San Francisco.  It takes me 35 minutes to get from suburbs in Contra Costa County to Downtown San Francisco.  My route takes me through Oakland and there are NO express trains which means I have to stop at all of the stations in Oakland on my route.  The trip from Downtown Berkeley to San Francisco is also 27 minutes.  Again this is making stops in Berkeley and Oakland to get to downtown San Francisco.   

It takes me 55 minutes to get front the suburbs in the East Bay to get to San Francisco airport.  In making that trip  the train stops at every statins on that route in Oakland, and San Francisco.

The trip from downtown Oakland to downtown San Francisco is about 14 minutes.  Heck in 40 minutes I could walk from Oakland to San Francisco.

You have me puzzled by this one.....  How can you get a ticket and a point on your driving record if there are no cops to pull you over?
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #123 on: December 12, 2021, 01:05:52 pm »
Sabine Hossenfelder did a [IMO] good video on Hyperloop recently.

Similar concerns to my own: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/its-2020-sf-to-la-for-$25-on-elon-musks-hyperloop-are-you-buying-it/msg3327198/#msg3327198
Physically viable concept if altered from the Elon Musk whitepaper but no one seems to be doing a "real" job of tackling the pertinent challenges.
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #124 on: December 12, 2021, 03:29:23 pm »
It’s a 100 year old technology just being recycled. 
Anyone remember France’s Jet train?  The tracks are still there.  But what happed to the trains?   

Wait, it get better.

https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk

And  better

https://youtu.be/EeWcQf9QCmg

And better

https://youtu.be/CQJgFh_e01g https://youtu.be/CQJgFh_e01g
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #125 on: December 12, 2021, 03:31:54 pm »
The new hyper-loop is Spin-launch.
https://youtu.be/9ziGI0i9VbE
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #126 on: December 12, 2021, 09:26:09 pm »
Instead of posting thunderfoot rants, which have already been posted ad nauseam and aren't terribly hard to find anyway, how about actually expressing your misgivings for these things. Then we can discuss the pros and cons like two (or more!) people, well, discussing things. The you're going on, we might as well decamp to youtube and just throw some bon mots or whatever at the comments section.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #127 on: December 12, 2021, 09:43:10 pm »
What are the pros and cons about discussing technology which violates the laws of physics?  They are just con artists in the case of Elizebeth Holmes, and Trevor Milton.  Elon on the other-hand who has a university degrees is either pulling of one of the biggest most expensive hoaxes of all time or is just delusional. 

What is there to discuss when someone says they have a technology which everyone knows violates the laws of physics.  Do you really want to have a discussion the pros and cons of weather a perpetual motion machine is possible?  We had better hope it is not possible…. If it were we would all burn up from all of that extra heat a perpetual motion machines would create.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #128 on: December 12, 2021, 09:54:20 pm »
What are the pros and cons about discussing technology which violates the laws of physics?  They are just con artists in the case of Elizebeth Holmes, and Trevor Milton.  Elon on the other-hand who has a university degrees is either pulling of one of the biggest most expensive hoaxes of all time or is just delusional. 

What is there to discuss when someone says they have a technology which everyone knows violates the laws of physics.  Do you really want to have a discussion the pros and cons of weather a perpetual motion machine is possible?  We had better hope it is not possible…. If it were we would all burn up from all of that extra heat a perpetual motion machines would create.
Except it does not violate any laws of physics. Otherwise existing proof of concept implementations would not exist. It certainly can be made. The question is if it makes sense to make it.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #129 on: December 12, 2021, 10:00:46 pm »
Quote
What are the pros and cons about discussing technology which violates the laws of physics?

Well, the obvious one is you saying why you think it violates the laws of physics. Pointing to a video that says it does isn't a discussion (at least, not with you).

So, what do you, personally in your own mind, feel is wrong with either of these things?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: It's 2020. SF to LA for $25 on Elon Musk's Hyperloop - Are you buying it?
« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2021, 11:58:06 pm »
There is already a thread on here for Spin Launch, please take discussion there
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/spinlaunch-can-it-succeed/
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Small update, The Boring Company just made a twitter post.
Quote from: @boringcompany
Hyperloop testing at full-scale begins later this year.
https://twitter.com/boringcompany/status/1518615207035039745
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Offline cdev

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If one could spend $25 to travel between the two they would sell a lot of tickets..The options right now suck.

But the Central Valley rail project has bogged down too.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Hype-loop is right..

 ???
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Can't wait to take the California High Speed Rail between Bakersfield, otherwise known as the arm pit of the Central Valley and Modesto where America Graffiti was filed which is now know for Meth, Death and Auto theft.

As how been discussed many times the train crosses several earth quake faults.  We are due for one soon....  What's going to happen when we have a quake and the ground shifts 10 - 20 feet as it has in the past.  The train will be out of service for years.  No such issue with a air travel.
 

Offline PlainName

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Quote
The train will be out of service for years.  No such issue with a air travel.

Air travel is mega-polluting. Maybe the repair costs will be less than the environmental costs saved when the train was, and will be, running.

Not everything has a simple hand-in-pocket up-front price to allow easy factoring, you know :)
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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Oh air travel is so much worse when it comes to pollution....  It lowers people's IQ.  Just as petrol used to power automobiles has been for nearly 100 years.  But so does soldering.   

 

Offline AVGresponding

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How does soldering lower IQ?   :-//
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline cdev

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In the 1990s the Bay Area was just seething with enterpreneurial types who WANTED YOUR MONEY and would pretty much SAY ANYTHING to get it.

I remember this era well. It wasn't THAT long ago, remember.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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How does soldering lower IQ?   :-//

Sorry, thought it was obvious.  Solder used in electronic for nearly more than a century contained lead.  Working with the solder your being exposed to lead.   
 

Offline BrianHG

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How does soldering lower IQ?   :-//
Unless you are eating it, inhaling a vapor form of it, or you don't wash your hands after use before eating, or rubbing your eyes, it probably wont affect you.

Improper disposal can release it into the environment in unpredictable ways which can lead to the above problems with contamination.  IE: Children biting on toys containing paint made with lead.
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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How does soldering lower IQ?   :-//
Unless you are eating it, inhaling a vapor form of it, or you don't wash your hands after use before eating, or rubbing your eyes, it probably wont affect you.

Improper disposal can release it into the environment in unpredictable ways which can lead to the above problems with contamination.  IE: Children biting on toys containing paint made with lead.

No disagreement with what you are saying in theory, and then there's what people really do.  It does have to be ingested and the most common way is not washing hands or in a multi-step process where when one is soldering wiping ones face or touching a coffee cup/glass of water.
 
 

Offline jonovid

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 its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.

Aviation fuel still contains lead.  Did you see the video?  It's as bad if not worse than radioactive waste pollution.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.

Aviation fuel still contains lead.  Did you see the video?  It's as bad if not worse than radioactive waste pollution.

Uh. https://ijet.aero/ijet-blog/different-types-aviation-fuel-jet-fuel

AFAIK, only AVGAS contains lead (for the same reasons gas for cars contained lead, but obviously the aviation industry has been a lot more reluctant to switch to lead-free fuel due to reliability reasons.)

AFAIK, AVGAS is only used for piston engines, so basically the small aircrafts, which considering the total amount of fuel consumed, must be a pretty small fraction worldwide these days. Jet fuel doesn't contain lead as far as I can tell, and (although I don't have figures right now) is probably the number one fuel used for aviation in terms of volume.
 

Offline Nusa

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its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.

Aviation fuel still contains lead.  Did you see the video?  It's as bad if not worse than radioactive waste pollution.

You do realize that almost nobody actually watches the video links posted? If it's not worth an extra minute of your time to summarize it, it means even you think it isn't important enough to watch. You're just using it as a crutch for your what-about-that argument where you make a clearly ridiculous and untrue statement to hijack the thread into something that has nothing to do with the threads topic.
 
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Offline DougSpindlerTopic starter

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its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.

Aviation fuel still contains lead.  Did you see the video?  It's as bad if not worse than radioactive waste pollution.

You do realize that almost nobody actually watches the video links posted? If it's not worth an extra minute of your time to summarize it, it means even you think it isn't important enough to watch. You're just using it as a crutch for your what-about-that argument where you make a clearly ridiculous and untrue statement to hijack the thread into something that has nothing to do with the threads topic.

Considering more people watch the video then read the posts I’m not surprised.  What’s discussed in the video is related to my original post about Elon’s Hyperloop.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Considering more people watch the video then read the posts I’m not surprised.  What’s discussed in the video is related to my original post about Elon’s Hyperloop.
In what way?

Help us help you, Doug.

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Offline AVGresponding

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  • Exploring Rabbit Holes Since The 1970s
its vaporware or an investment scam.
parts of the Hyperloop technology do work however for the most part it is so
infrastructure intensive in use of both land and materials as to make any benefits non existent when compared with aviation.
 ::)
IMO environmental costs of air travel are exaggerated by some to the point of insanity.

Aviation fuel still contains lead.  Did you see the video?  It's as bad if not worse than radioactive waste pollution.

Uh. https://ijet.aero/ijet-blog/different-types-aviation-fuel-jet-fuel

AFAIK, only AVGAS contains lead (for the same reasons gas for cars contained lead, but obviously the aviation industry has been a lot more reluctant to switch to lead-free fuel due to reliability reasons.)

AFAIK, AVGAS is only used for piston engines, so basically the small aircrafts, which considering the total amount of fuel consumed, must be a pretty small fraction worldwide these days. Jet fuel doesn't contain lead as far as I can tell, and (although I don't have figures right now) is probably the number one fuel used for aviation in terms of volume.

Exactly, while avgas contains lead, that is not exactly the most widely used aircraft fuel; it's only for piston engines, so historic planes and small private planes. Jets use kerosene or naptha based fuel, and though there are additives for various purposes, none of them contain lead.

As far as soldering is concerned, wash your hands afterwards! There is no lead in flux fumes, that's an "urban myth", soldering doesn't get hot enough to vapourise lead.
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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