Author Topic: One of 99 red baloons goes by...  (Read 15863 times)

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Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2023, 09:31:34 pm »
iratus parum formica
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2023, 02:40:49 am »
  I saw the same picture earlier today but that poster claimed that it was the last image the balloon captured while over SW Missouri!  :-+
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2023, 03:08:02 am »
close ups of the balloon just  released by us intelligence
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2023, 03:25:31 am »
The risk is an escalation and china shoots down a US spy satellite when it's over china.
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Online Kim Christensen

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2023, 04:10:18 am »
Is nothing safe from  chinese  copying?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/pentagon-balloons-surveillance-midwest

Maybe the "It's a Chinese balloon!" is all a ruse and these ones are spying on Americans for the Pentagon/ATF/FBI/etc.
Might still be made in China though.  :-DD
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2023, 06:17:31 am »
You cannot shoot a luftballon down with an onboard gun easily (if any on the board). You do not want shoot an air-air missile over an populated area.. In case of a miss and failing self-destruction it may fly another hundred miles and land in someone's house.. While flying east direction the only suitable place has been the east coast, imho..

Why not? Put a bunch of holes in it and it will come down eventually. If it gradually deflates and settles to earth that is an ideal situation. It was flying at around 60k feet which is within reach of an F-15. The thing was massive as it could be seen from the ground so hitting it doesn't seem difficult once you're up there.

It's the relative speeds of balloon and plane that makes it tricky, plus you really don't want to accidentally fly through any of the debris after you shoot it, either with guns or misslies.
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Offline james_s

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2023, 07:29:43 am »
It's the relative speeds of balloon and plane that makes it tricky, plus you really don't want to accidentally fly through any of the debris after you shoot it, either with guns or misslies.

How hard can that be with modern tech? The F-22 is state of the art, surely it has all sorts of high tech targeting aids. I also would not expect there to be much debris from a balloon, they could have made a strafing pass from hundreds of feet above it. Even if the plane were to fly right through the balloon itself I'd be shocked if it were seriously damaged. It's a balloon, not a rigid airship.
 
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Offline AndyBeezTopic starter

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2023, 09:35:15 am »
They don't put cannons on modern jet fighters, as air war is fire and forget over ranges of 50 miles plus. Firing on a planet sized target point blank must have been somewhat outside of the curve for the onboard targetting system?

Being British - and knowing how the MoD would have freaked out at the expense of using an expensive missile on a 'chinese magic lantern' - I would suggest flying over the baloon at Mac 2 and using the sonic boom to tear the envelope. But that's not Top Gun. Or even Top Missile?

As for what the baloon was really doing, I await the Pentagoon's Instagram feed for forum analysis.

8) Are we having fun yet?
 

Offline iMo

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2023, 11:52:48 am »
They will find nothing special, my bet :).. The "special box" (with SDR receivers, FPGAs and a satellite uplink/downlink board) has been blown up to small pieces by an RDX charge triggered on by a mechanical altimeter when below 40k feet.. The debris wind-blown over vast areas of Atlantic  >:D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 11:55:11 am by imo »
 
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Online Kim Christensen

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2023, 04:52:40 pm »
It's funny that the tittle of this thread is a song by the German band Nena. Wasn't it the American NSA, with the help of the Danes, who tapped German Chancellor Angela Merkel's phone a decade ago? Plus they spied on other European leaders.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 04:58:55 pm by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2023, 05:58:47 pm »
It's the relative speeds of balloon and plane that makes it tricky, plus you really don't want to accidentally fly through any of the debris after you shoot it, either with guns or misslies.

How hard can that be with modern tech? The F-22 is state of the art, surely it has all sorts of high tech targeting aids. I also would not expect there to be much debris from a balloon, they could have made a strafing pass from hundreds of feet above it. Even if the plane were to fly right through the balloon itself I'd be shocked if it were seriously damaged. It's a balloon, not a rigid airship.

High altitude helium balloons are big, and they are made from metallised mylar. You really don't want big shreds of that getting sucked into your intakes, or getting stuck to the cockpit canopy.
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Offline TimFox

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2023, 07:04:58 pm »
So, the USAF sent up two fighter planes, one shot a single heat-seeking missile at the balloon gas bag;  it deflated and the payload crashed into the ocean, depth around 15 m, while local airports were on a temporary stop to avoid mishap.
Sounds like a reasonable workflow.
Since this happened in broad daylight near a popular tourist beach,  there is lots of documentation about the encounter.

[edit:  fix typo]
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 08:47:12 pm by TimFox »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2023, 07:43:41 pm »
They don't put cannons on modern jet fighters, as air war is fire and forget over ranges of 50 miles plus. Firing on a planet sized target point blank must have been somewhat outside of the curve for the onboard targetting system?

Being British - and knowing how the MoD would have freaked out at the expense of using an expensive missile on a 'chinese magic lantern' - I would suggest flying over the baloon at Mac 2 and using the sonic boom to tear the envelope. But that's not Top Gun. Or even Top Missile?

As for what the baloon was really doing, I await the Pentagoon's Instagram feed for forum analysis.

8) Are we having fun yet?

Um, the F-22 certainly does have a gun, at least according to General Dynamics.

https://www.gd-ots.com/armaments/aircraft-guns-gun-systems/f22/#:~:text=The%20F%2D22A%2020mm%20Gun,high%20reliability%20at%20minimum%20weight.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2023, 08:12:45 pm »
But at say 60,000ft there is little atmospheric pressure and thus oxygen, so I wondered if the bullets actually can work including exceeding the aircraft's speed to launch forward.
Looking at older F-18 20mm Gatling gun system the plane is good to 37,000ft I believe but there's no specs on the ammunition's usable altitude.

That missle appeared to hit low causing damage to the equipment, kind of defeats the purpose of all the hoopla to gain intel about it.
 
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Online mfro

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2023, 09:07:02 pm »
But at say 60,000ft there is little atmospheric pressure and thus oxygen, so I wondered if the bullets actually can work including exceeding the aircraft's speed to launch forward.
Why would you think oxygen level/atmospheric pressure would have a negative impact on gun performance?
Beethoven wrote his first symphony in C.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2023, 09:14:00 pm »
So, the USAF sent up two fighter planes, one shot a single heat-seeking missile at the balloon gas bag;  it deflated and the payload crashed into the ocean, depth around 15 m, while local airports were on a temporary stop to avoid mishap.
Sounds like a reasonable workflow.

Nah, they should have sent up Lawnchair Larry with a shotgun...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawnchair_Larry_flight
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2023, 11:26:38 pm »
Why would you think oxygen level/atmospheric pressure would have a negative impact on gun performance?
Combustion requires oxygen. I see KNO3 generates its own oxygen, so guns can apparently operate in space. I thought bullets would have been sufficient.
This is a multi-million dollar fiasco, no need to save a few hundred grand I guess.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2023, 12:16:31 am »
  KNO3 hasn't been used in gunpowder for about 120 years now except in antiques, usually muzzle loaders.  Modern propellants use  smokeless gun powder, usually a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. But yes, modern gun powder does contain it's own nitrates and they supply all of the oxygen that's needed for the combustion. Any gun that uses a self contained cartridge would work perfectly well in a vacuum or in this case a partial vacuum. The only difference would be that the fired bullet would have less air resistance and would travel further and faster than it does at sea level.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2023, 12:43:55 am »
Combustion requires oxygen. I see KNO3 generates its own oxygen, so guns can apparently operate in space. I thought bullets would have been sufficient.
This is a multi-million dollar fiasco, no need to save a few hundred grand I guess.

All explosives (of the sort that burn) carry their own oxidizer, otherwise they wouldn't explode, they would just burn. You make a low explosive by mixing something flammable such as charcoal or cotton with a strong oxidizer, that's how they all work. They burn very rapidly due to having their own oxygen mixed in and the expanding gas they generate ruptures the container which provides most of the explosive force. Then there are high explosives, things like nitroglycerin, TNT and RDX. They don't burn, they detonate, explosively decompose so rapidly that it produces a shockwave, no container is necessary. Both low and high explosives will function perfectly well in a vacuum, or even under water.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2023, 03:56:51 am »
According to Wikipedia, the cost of an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile in 2019 was approximately $400k (USD).
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2023, 04:27:11 am »
well columbians might find this information useful.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11715291/Colombia-releases-details-second-Chinese-spy-balloon-hovering-Latin-America.html


I am surprised we don't have a global balloon popping party at this point. Should have done it on new years midnight.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2023, 10:37:12 am »
NORAD is a scam.  :-DD
 
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Offline AndyBeezTopic starter

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2023, 12:55:03 pm »
 :o Woohoo some facts are coming out [spoiler: not really]
Quote
Suspected Chinese spy balloon was 200ft tall - US defence official

Mike Mullen, former chair of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, rejected China's suggestion it might have blown off course, saying it was manoeuvrable because "it has propellers on it".

Full article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64548140

Balloon image may not be to scale - Unless the Chinese have invented extra light helium
Quote
On Monday, defence officials said debris had been found in an area that measures roughly 1,500m (4,920 ft) by 1,500m, although material is spread over a much larger area. Efforts to recover the balloon's equipment have been complicated by sea conditions and the possibility that the debris may include dangerous materials such as explosives or battery components.

Full article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64541671
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 12:57:25 pm by AndyBeez »
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2023, 01:31:46 pm »
It's funny that the tittle of this thread is a song by the German band Nena. Wasn't it the American NSA, with the help of the Danes, who tapped German Chancellor Angela Merkel's phone a decade ago? Plus they spied on other European leaders.

Not sure about the Danes, but IMHO the whole government had been bugged and I'm pretty sure they knew about it. Plus there is that huge US embassy with likely a $h1tload of hidden antennas right next to the government disctrict in Berlin. I wonder why.
Funny sidenote: Former chancellor Helmut Kohl knew decades ago, that all of his phones were tapped, so while on the road to some meeting, he directed his driver to drive some random route and stop at a random phone booth (literally everywhere to be found in the 80s) and then did his important calls. He even joked about it when meeting with communist politicians in his guest house. So they knew that he knew.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: One of 99 red baloons goes by...
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2023, 05:45:29 pm »
Balloon image may not be to scale - Unless the Chinese have invented extra light helium

Hydrogen is lighter than helium, and unlike helium it is renewable. Seems like a no-brainer for unmanned balloons where the flammability isn't an issue.
 


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