Author Topic: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!  (Read 48944 times)

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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Hi there:
   Continued from previous thread, on using Solar Yard Lights, for investigating various switched networks, without interconnecting wires.
   Having some difficulties, getting (proper) experiment settings, and especially, focus on 'edge trigger' logic.  The gist of this is, a solar light contains a (digital) switch, for only operating at night, by using the very same little solar 'panel' as a light sensor.  So, in digital terms, you have a means for 'mixing' various inputs, that are then combined into a totalized 'analog' input, for the level check.  If threshold is exceeded, that means the solar light is now in substantial (ambient) light and will shut off the LED output.
That is basically a 'logical NOR' gate, obviously also useful for 'And gate' functions, equivalent.
  An interesting aside to this; the little yard lights can be operated / switched, by application of two signal 'inputs', optically, where each input is (barely) above
50 %. There things, roughly speaking, can start to resemble neurons, where various input synapses bring analog coded signals for combination.  Of course, there isn't any 'negative' polarity of light, in same sense as electric, plus and minus, but the meanings can still be carried: Most signals, into the solar light, are 'inhibitory' anyway, and inverted logic can conveyed, this time by presence, or lack of presence (of any light).
But in general the inhibitory and actuating aspects can both be expressed, in collections of yard lights, into various relation structures, (like a simple 2-state flip-flop).
   Picture shows, a causally built 'Optical Bench', having top with many mounting holes, for putting gates (yard lights) individually related.  Underneath, is provided various battery packs and solder less proto boards.
A LED blinker provides a light source, for some testing.
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 07:25:25 pm »
In this enclosed photo, I'm showing the difficult process, of obtaining a decent 'EDGE TRIGGER' on the light beam, from a first 'gate' and to the left, is seen a second gate, meant to be an inverter, in a classic edge detecting circuit (although here it is optical, not electric).  Problem was, mainly with various light levels, in that little, 3 component circuit.  For solving that, edge detector circuit, it was necessary to separate the solar panel (optical input), from the direction the output LED is pointing.  This way, the third gate, will get the full LED output, even while that 2nd gate is no longer inline...the output direction has been manipulated, just do that mechanical alignments are correct (for transfer of enough light to cause switching).
   If all that works, should be able to reproduce those very short pulses of light output, that I've already verified, (but on more 'shakey' informal experiments.)
The classic principal is simple: A delay through an inverter causes a short 'AND' condition to be satisfied, so an electrical pulse output happens. Then, as the inverter catches up, in matter of nanoseconds, the AND gate output goes 'false'.
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 07:27:10 pm »
This photo showing the transient light (gate on the left) is off, in this view.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 07:28:43 pm »
(this view) shows the transient light gate inverter, with LED output ON.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 08:41:10 pm »
This current photo shows a kind of dual-nature, in the sense that, in upper, first example it's all digital, gate to gate, while second example, (lower in photo), shows two inputs, reaching the 100% threshold by combined intensity of light input. 
   So can have either, it really depends on context of use, whether you are getting a 'NOR', (with equiv AND, of 'not' inputs), or you are getting a 'NAND', style, where both inputs are needed, to get a logical output (zero).
It's a bit muddied, by the mixing of analog terminology, for inputs, unusual, with typical digital resolved output.

   For more 'context' illustration, a good example can be a design, for an optically sequenced A to D converter, acting to monitor ambient light levels.
By running a 'calibrated' light source into a gate, for comparison with ambient levels, it can be determined when the threshold is crossed, of a TOTAL light input.
So, let's assume today's light is at '30 %' ...an arbitrary number.  Then, by essentially adding in a D to A generated 'light' signal, the 100 % threshold is crossed when your D to A output climbs up to 70%. Thus you get a reversed or inverted answer result that can easily be inverted, to the correct result, of 30%.
The method is classic A to D by creating a source, via a D to A, for comparison.  Either a ramp style, (slow), or a successive approximation style can be used, in the A to D scheme.
   For the OPTICAL A to D subsystem, each of 4 bits are  (individually) raised, then tested, against AMBIENT, and subsequently canceled, if the trial (light level) went too high. That happens 4 times, for each bit (weight).
At the end, you have a 4 bit result, inverted, but it's an analog measure, of ambient light level.
The sequencer and test logic involves some thing on the order of 40 to 50 of those little yard lights.  Makes for interesting and intriguing exploration of digital analog, and neurological concepts, for sure!
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 09:14:51 pm »
The key to doing the A to D converter is to build a SEQUENCER, as a simple state machine, having a 'test' function, (for analog comparator), where there are 6 simple steps:
   First, everything is cleared, reset, (at step #1).  Then, step #2, will set bit D3, that's the most significant analog value.  For the (optical) comparator, the bit D3 being ON will give the most light, and so is placed closest, to comparing gate.
A 'canceling' step then determines if that (bit3) made an overflow, if so then bit3 is turned back off.
This repeats, for the remaining bits, D2, D1, and D0,
and taking up 2 sequencer steps per bit, 10 steps total, at which time the sequencer sets a status bit 'Conversion Complete', and stops.  Of course, that 'optical' binary encoded result is inverted, but is available, as a 4-bit set of 'light beams', ...(for use in subsequent circuits).
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 11:57:59 pm »
...Keep in mind, those 'analog' values are somewhat static, built in by way of input 'weights', where the actual (sourced) original signals are digital.  That attenuation is a bit 'casual'; often done by way of adjusting the distance between sender / receiver.
Also, possible to use partial blocks, for obtaining a set percentage of original, by the time it reaches the 'solar cell' receptor.
   A more fluid example, of analog 'input' light levels, is where the actual electronics portion is modified, such as placing attenuation controls, etc (but can't be PWM control, must be static DC driving the LED intensity).
   But that's THE TELL, in a regular nervous system, some of the 'analog' encoding is hard/ permanent in the synapse structure. I'm not pretending to know, much, neuroscience, but wishing more Neuroscientists would read the EEVBLOG!

   So, the outline, for doing A to D conversion, is, first, creation / design, of a simple light pulse SEQUENCER, (of course with an optical output clock), where the sequencing outputs come from a series of SPDT switches, (all optical), where each individual switch separates out one output, and then goes to 'chain' output mode, for next stage, in the 10 or so stages needed, for the 4-bit analog to digital converter.
   Some of the A/d converter is 'cheating', in a sense, by using wire extended LED 'duplicates', in some cases, rather than a purely optical setup, (that would demand certain mechanical proximity of four different light beams, of the 4 bit weights).
That photo, showing a three input 'gate' helps convey the context, of having all three input drivers at full (digital) output strengths, but then each attenuated according to 'weights' assigned within the structure.
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2022, 05:35:53 am »
Photo shows (sorry for blurry vertical axis),  a somewhat close to linear drop-off, in the photovoltaic cell, going from 1 inch to 7 inches apart.  Upper curve is cell open-circuit voltage, typically the circuit switches at around 1.3 volts, in.  That sits well with possible 'NPN' type (input), perhaps with 1 kohm base resistor.
That's going to be, approx. 440 uA (micro-Amps).
That will allow for, along with a 1 kohm resistor, a 0.7 V transistor drop (bipolar).
The lower curve is transistor input current, a bit less, than 'inverse square law', but half's, every 2 1/2 inches
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2022, 06:03:45 am »
Hi:
I had been considering, what that little 4 pin (inline) package has inside (?). It controls the battery, solar cell panel and LED output.
But (see prev post), looks a lot like a NPN transistor, a black plastic rectangle, but having 4 leads.
But, along with, apparently digital switching, THERE IS one mode, for having 'analog' on that LED output.
By obtaining negative feedback, by (unusual) way of placing your LED output back against your basic 'input' (Solar Cell), that's feedback by way of the LED intensity, which, BTW seems to stabilize at a rather 'dim' setting, perhaps at something like 80 uA (micro-Amps).
   Otherwise, that LED output is fully ON, at the times when logically that works out (usually, when all inputs are 'dark', or nearly so.(

One current problem is, my 'edge triggering' circuit (made from those yard lights), actually triggers well, and brief, but on BOTH edges, rising and falling edges.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2022, 06:14:37 pm »
Here is a view of one particular 'switch', or Optical 'Gate', I like to call it. Takes time, but making secure fixtures eliminates some of the distraction, placing various light-operated pieces in relation.
This piece has only the IC, battery, and LED / reflector, while another table-mount piece contains the little square solar photo-voltaic cell, also glued for upright operation.  All this takes dedication, over stretches of days, so I try to make sure that's worth (the extra trouble).
   Main problem is, there is some mechanism, not a capacitor, but something is creating a delay time...maybe could be the solar cell itself.
(Whenever I try Google 'Solar Panel Impulse Delay Time'...I get some results like:
   'Three months lead time, for Solar Installations, in Midwest...'.
(That's useless).
   But in the edge detect optical circuit, it was supposed to trigger on (just) the falling edge, of light beam input.
So I have to figure out, what's going on with the switching action, as it appears there's a delay, before a new surge of light will create a response, from the circuitry. Since it acts in invert fashion, the newly ON light input causes the circuit to flash it's LED ON.
But if that response is delayed, then my circuit will flash on that (rising) edge, of the input.
 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2022, 06:15:19 pm »
A better view.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2022, 04:58:28 am »
Well I solved a couple pesky problems; the Edge Triggered pulse gen now works: solution involves separating the housing / LED, from solar panel, I'll show that.  Other prob was, how to avoid those, horrible, circular structures, rather than on-line (preferred), again, solved with separated LED, from solar panel.
   On the Edge Trigger circuit (please see picture, of optical gates 'A', 'B', 'C' ), the gate 'B' is separated, that way each part can be put in optimum place.  For the reception, of light from gate 'A', you need the solar panel placement, broadside almost, with gate 'A'.
But then, for pointing (gate 'B') LED, that's a different direction, preferential pointing to gate 'C'.  So that's how you place that LED, so gate 'C' gets the best input.
   You get a nice flash, upon shine your flashlight at start, while avoiding that pulse out, when turning off your flashlight. The 'falling edge' is, more literally, the falling edge, from Gate 'A'.
   So, in this case, it's a falling edge detected, as there is that one logic inverter, first.  At any rate, edge triggered pulses help for conveying overflow from each counter bit (falling edge).

   For the Flip/Flop, a simple, on-line form has two gates, labeled as Q -not, and Q.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2022, 05:01:41 am »
This photo shows the on-line Flip-flop circuit, where the first gate is 'Q-not', seen in the left, and is with LED 'ON', meaning illuminated.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2022, 05:12:38 am »
This view, the gate on the right is illuminated, being the 'Q' gate output.  That indicates the 2-state thingy is 'SET'.  For doing a SET, or RESET, you simple put a pulse in, into the opposite gate..., so to RESET, you could pulse the 'Q-not' area / solar cell. Actually, literally, that solar cell, is on the 'Q' part of the flip-flop.
(This stuff gets tidious, to get straight, often).
   In the end, you have a beautiful Optically interfaced flip-flop, that gets a light impulse in for the RESET, and another one, to do flip-flop SET.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2022, 08:21:22 pm »
Mired in stagnancy / stalemate, that's for sure.
   I've carefully built a couple of separated components; A lamp with reflector that can be positioned independent of main light sensing circuit and battery.
...An upright mounted solar Voltaic cell, on long wires, for the 'bench test rig'.
Plus, a 'Christmas' style LED blinker, for creating repeatable 'Scope traces...
   Now, I can, sort-of, get that goal, of having a full sweep pulse output, detecting a 'falling edge', of a light pulse, but the AMPLITUDE is always low; a dim and very brief light pulse.
It's a lot of 'figiting' and poking at it, as, for one thing, some of those little 'Light Pucks' don't barely emit enough light for causing triggering at the next (component in my edge detect).
   Ever had one of 'those' type stalemate, where everything seems muddied..., and even the failure parts don't express well, or vigorously! (No 'Chi' force, lol).
   At least, I've figured out, the optimum placements, for the 'sensor', vs 'output' (LED), are located in completely different places, relative to other components.
That's why I had to split up one of the yard lights, in the first place.
...more later, thanks.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2022, 01:11:43 am »
To show what I mean, by 'flakey' results...Even some of the 'failure modes', are flakey...like, for example, my trial edge detect circuit, currently exhibits a pulse output on BOTH edges, rising and falling.
..intermittently.
(See photo) That photocell 'splitter' allows for 2 inputs, while blocking any light leakage.  The items feeding the top half must not get any light, from the lower light output feed: that's why you can see the divider going across the cell (#3).
That (friggin) divider, had to push and pull that, just for having both light inputs be enough to trigger the #3 unit.  As in the classic edge detect, the upper signal (signals going left to right), the upper signal is the straight input, although inverted by gate unit #1.
The other half, is sent by way of gate #2, the solar sensor being #2A, there.  The purpose, via gate #2, is to provide a (very short) delay, before the delayed signal causes gate #3 inhibit (lower signal path).
This is all very solid, in theory. However, first of all, any light that leaks, forward through the logic, can cause a 'linear mode', where you have negative feedback, thru the solar voltaic cell, in the loop. That exhibits as a very dim lit LED...I'm not yet sure if that's oscillating, depending on phase, around 180 degrees, and other factors, as I'm not familiar with the 4 pin IC controller (inside each yard light).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2022, 01:12:47 am »
...here is view, of that separation wall, for the solar cell.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2022, 01:28:52 am »
Sorry, if the presentation is cryptic: those rectangles in the last 2 pictures, represent each individually operating solar light, with gate #1 being the input. Now, the circuit is called a falling edge detect, but input is buffered, so that, logically, the whole module acts on the RISING EDGE, of your ultimate input.
The gate #2 performs the logical AND using low going signals, so literally it's a NOR gate.  It's just that it's used (Thevinin Equiv.) so it needs both inputs low, to deliver the pulse (-P type) output, from gate #3.
For an NPN transistor, like a 2n2222, I could expect, maybe 100 nano seconds switching time.  There aren't any capacitors visible, inside the little lawn lights.
That means to expect, current delivered to LED output, will be interrupted soon after the #2 solar cell stops issue voltage. (That's why considered as an inverter).

   The two extra lawn lights, are options placed into the gate #2 path, in attempts to cause an increase, in the blink time, of the pulsed output.
Driving the input of unit #1, is a typical flashing LED.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2022, 07:03:22 pm »
      On The Optical Circuits, Generally:
   Progress on some details, of the bi-stable bit latch, and on the pulse edge-detect dynamics.
A few more sketches on that Analog to Digital layout scheme, a favored aspect because of the somewhat close analogy with neurons (...if I got that right, lol).

   Due to the output weakness of LED light, for causing triggering, one method helps; by splitting a signal into 2 separate copies.  That way, no worries, about 'sharing' some output light, between a couple of different receiver (cells).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2022, 07:28:11 pm »
Plus, adding to all this, those little Solar Light's LED for output, often are pointed, grossly, off somewhere very off-center, and the ones I'm testing generally use LED lense/housing. I estimated, those LED directionality is to take up approx 50 ° (degrees) horiz; and 50 ° degrees vertical, for about 1/25th of a full sphere.  So that comes to, estimated, a X 25 factor and a ÷ by 27 factor, for geometric 'R cubed'. That starts to fit my results, where the solar cell response has voltage dropping off, a bit slower than some 'R squared', but it's close to R squared.
   I find it a bit interesting, (and vexxing): here we have that large Solar Voltaic cell surface, ...acting like a summing node, in analog circuitry.
But yet, the LEDs 'sending' portion has those flakey directionality flaws, or at least inconsistencies.
   A newly built test lamp, has surface mounted 'green dot' LED emitters, already precisely positioned in reflector, so that's nice. 
Another variable in this process is the Solar Cell efficiency, relative to all these various LED emission color options.
(Those newly built lamps, are obtained by salvaging parts out of DOLLAR STORE flashlights, on sale).
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2022, 08:11:54 pm »
This photo shows: I'm having troubles, getting the screw terminal blocks to work, decent, with the delicate wires, often part of a separated, Solar Cell and nearby LED decorative light.
Problem with screw terminal block is the GAUGE; that light gauge wire does not 'squeeze' securely, underneath terminal, and, worse, those screw-down terminals can actually crush / break any soldered or tinned wire lead ends.
Best I'm going for now, is to solder a short (1 inch) piece of heavier solid wire, for direct insert into a regular IC solderless breadboard.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2022, 08:17:13 pm »
Here is photo of some of the separated LED lamps, each with a fairly long lead set, for connection at that solderless breadboard or with a set of screw terminals.
By the way, using only one battery cell, at 1.3 V there is no external LED resistor, so any (future) testing that involves higher supply voltages (5V, or even 12 V), requires some resistor (range 220 ohms up to 1 k or so.)
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2022, 11:40:45 pm »
It's the analog aspects, of the Solar Light switching that is interesting.  That's why an example, Analog to Digital conversion, helps show the digital sequencing along with the analog response, and how they relate.
The scheme differs slightly, from conventional AtoD subsystems.
   Firstly, not much hope of going beyond about 4 bits of resolution just simply for mechanical reasons, too many components, in small spaces
Example includes a 3-bit layout, with maximum A/D count of '8'.  Each bit will contribute according to binary weight.  Now, it took a lot of thought, but I've set the A/D system up for 1 count = 200 mVolts.
The 'overflow' value used is '7', a little unusual, but at that scale, a resultant A to D voltage reading is 1.4 volts.  Readers may recall, the value, near 1.35 volts is where device switching occurs.
Conventionally, a different choice would have been, to use overflow (to '8', a binary boundary), and to assign each count as 160 mV each.
   The rationale for using '7', instead, for the overflow, has to do with so-called 'Two's Complement' representation:. Consider, an ambient (light) condition causing something around a quarter of total light, from natural and from (yard light LED) sources:
So, an ambient level, at count of 2, would require the REFERENCE Digital to Analog source to count up, reaching overflow status at count = 5.
Notice, that '5' is directly a complement, of value under measurement: level of '2'.  Otherwise, with more conventional overflow, at '8', will produce a result,..
.I.E. '6'; which would require 'Two's complement' additional process, so total process, for an AtoD answer would then require COMPLEMENT (easy), and then an INCREMENT (slightly tough, using all optical register logic).
   At any rate, the explanation is unconventional, but is mere conjecture anyway: The little light simply switches, nominal, near 1.35 volts, 1.40 volts being 'nicely' represented, by AtoD count of '7'.
   The other unconventional aspect, is that there are TWO analog sources, between the ambient light (about 2 out of the 7 total counts, and the Digital to Analog source, giving out '5' counts worth of light (that would be 5 X 200mV = 1.0 volts. ). Adding then, the ambient contribution, of 2 X 200mV and you reach the trigger level, of 1.4 Volts.
   There was concern, initially, that some A to D full counts are not there, thus some loss of already low, resolution.  However, when asked, to regurgitate an analog value, a Digital to Analog converter WILL produce, normally, all amplitude counts, 0 thru 7, even though original converter only utilized, up to count of five.  All this is normal, as also, when ambient light factor is 'zero', the system has to count up to '7', then invert, to show a correct value, (of 000 binary).
So you have full range and resolution, (within that, crappy counts 0 through 7 range), it's just that most Analog to Digital conversions only involve one single parameter, not two, that have been summed.

   It seemed perplexing for a second, as I contemplated, how to construct that Optical Logic A to D converter, how to bring analog values in, for summing (at the photo cell).  But THEN realirzed, NO, those signals are still digital (meaning rail to rail voltage swing), with analog process only at the destination; the analog weights tweaked by filters, reducing intensity, so that bit 2, for example, the MSB, is done with a '50%' blocking or partially obscure filter. That would be placed in front of the LED emitter for bit2.
Of course, distance to the 'comparator' gate is another potential manipulation method...having nothing to do with the very very very slight increased (light) propagation time, a couple extra inches...that's negligible.
   So there you have it: An intro to a digital gate system, having analog qualities, briefly or in one specific region (near to the switching input).
Reading, in biosciences book 'NeuroScience for Dummie', this is almost exactly similar to neurons, except one (interesting) aspect:
   Neurons do their job, having, sometimes HUNDREDs of little digital inputs (synapses).
I can't solder that fast, but interesting results to be had,
(If I can wrestle out all these variables.)

   "N cans, holding 'N' worms..."

--Rick B.

 
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Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2022, 10:15:01 am »
More 'figiting and fussing'...  (Trials, for doing a pulse logic generator).
The incoming light (see photo, left side), goes through the series, along bottom, while also having a signal path, along the top; each signal path ending up as the inputs, to the final 'gate' (that's short-term for each separate 'lawn light').
Each separate experimental layout needs special attention, as the individual lights (Dollar Store discounted) are of limited quality, as in battery charge duration, LED pointing mis-align (path to next unit, for the feebled output), and potential for 'leakage', random,from one unit to (some) other, in the optical logic circuit.
   YUP; NOPE, this set-up does not even barely work, looking to see an output 'flash', as the inverting logic, of each gate, should create a 'rising edge' responding situation. 
   Also, the cheaper Solar Lights seem to have pretty marginal (AAA battery) running time, each evening.
The light's internal switching is done by way of a 4 pin IC, some are calling that a 'Buck Converter'...but I don't see any inductor, ...or capacitor, in the little circuits.
Found some other bloggers postings, for Yard Lights projects:. Big Clive.com has materials and actually does great job, very clear diagrams...(I should learn something, there).
Others do 'Art Projects', involving individual yard lights.  But I'm interested in the switching behavior (with analog parameters, as I've said).
   In my diagram, the upper signal path is the 'delay' line, operating a 'NOR' gate, essentially, along with the lower signal path.  Briefly, the final gate (on the right), will pulse, during the very brief interval, before the upper signal 'catches up', and supplies an 'inhibit' signal.  In theory, but it's not working. (Output stays blank).  I had been planning to attach Oscilloscope, to measure output pulse duration.
   I did realize, only recent, that the (single mh cell) likely is seen as a (large) capacitance, by the switching IC 'Buck Voltage circuit'...
   While viewing the diagram, it helps to view each 'gate', as a logical inverter, so the upper signal path (green units), is producing an inverted outcome, vs the lower signal path, which inverts twice and thus maintaining the original input state (coming off the very first buffer).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2022, 10:17:30 pm »
More filling in the question areas, on the switching characteristics of those Solar Yard lights.
   Photo shows the little PC board, no caps or inductors; just a single resistor, for the LED output current limiting.  The 4-pin switcher, (sometimes called buck converter), is a bit small, there next to the yellow wire and white wire.  Several unfilled PADs seem to imply that manufacture had other options.  This is a step up in quality, over some Dollar Store lights, so perhaps the units sold had been 'downgraded', by process of eliminating (any) possible components, especially a coil for 'bucking' a higher LED drive voltage, than the 1.3 V nominal nicad battery (in other more expensive lights).
   Also, before I forget, a strange use was made, utilizing the SWITCH HOUSING solder terminals as a conductor, (if I'm to believe my eyes).  Only guess I can make, is that there might be other models of garden light, that leave out that on-off switch, while perhaps populating other PC board 'missing' items, L1 coil, and C1 capacitor.  The battery, being a nice (nicad) AA type
holds more promising run time, at night before it drains down.
   But, for the purposes of THIS light assembly the components seem to be bare minimum, for lower price points, and satisfying a growing consumer acceptance.  Ten years ago it was different: the batteries were all AA, and typical units had a centralized driver / Solar Panel, with LED power leads going out to each individual.
Also, earlier units used a CDS device (that's Cadmium Sulfide light dependant resistor).  Funny, those Cds light sensors sat right next to any solar power cell...
I wonder, if there was an 'AH HA' moment ?
(Being that a 'Solar Cell' actually IS a potential sensor.)
   That on-off switch looks like has an option, when in the OFF position, of a second resistor, R2, for trickle charge, even when Yard Light LED is shut off.  So, yes, money was saved, by leaving out the option, for charging (the customer's) battery, even when LED was switched off.  In this Dollar Store thrift version, that penny savings, at the factor, was a GREED option..., perhaps, and in 'the dark' (yeah, a Pun), for any customers, myself included.
There's a couple of other 'short-cuts' seen in some cheap units, such as glueing or even soldering that battery in place.
   But back to my project needs: I've figured out, the LED is essentially switched to ground, on the negative LED terminal, very similar to typical low-going NPN transistor switches.
But I bet...if done over, 2012 thru to now, that particular model would eliminate the switch, and go to AAA batt sizing...just to get into that Dirt Cheap / discounted product.
Nothing wrong with, some, of that 'quality down-grade', as I've heard of older landscape lighting (low Voltage AC) costing upwards of $100 per garden light!
The inductor, in this current style, probably allows for bigger, multi-LED units, while also perhaps a capacitor helped, in some situations, for avoiding flicker, in some situations ...(??)
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2022, 10:18:44 pm »
Here is photo, of the lower parts count yard light.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2022, 05:17:32 am »
   Just to be doubly sure, for reader clarity on the commonly known PULSE DETECT circuit, (here done with optical ON-OFF digital signals), pls see photo.
   Substituting an 'inverter' symbol for each Garden Light 'gate' (generic term for logic unit), shows the common electronics circuit symbols, adopted for my garden light collection, on the experiment bench.
Going to the right side of diagram you can see that the final 'gate' acts identical to a TTL setup, in an inverted 'Thevinin equivalent', to a NOR gate; that's all convention.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2022, 06:00:14 am »
A friend here had instructed me, on how to post multiple photos, but now, I can't find that basic instruction, in my PM messages received...
   That last photo posted, showing how a 3 gate line-up would exhibit a slightly longer delay, than the lower signal path shown, having 2 gates.
So, for a brief time, your output gate, doing negative logic AND function, will issue a pulse turn-on, that should (in theory,...sigh..), should last, perhaps 100 nano seconds, until that last upper path gate goes to 'ON' state...THAT should then disable the negative logic AND performed by the very last gate in the
line-up.  That's why I labeled the last delay gate as being a later rise (of led light output), supposedly allowing some short time, to issue a pulse, indicating that a positive or rising edge occured, at the left-side signal input.
   Failed theory, on my part, is OK here, as that's part of the whole learning process, for adapting those little yard lights to switch, like a TTL logic device could.
   One possible explanation, (I gotta get on the 'OSCOPE, in the landlord's electronics bench); it is possible, some extremely brief light pulse IS happening, ...just not visible !!
(I'll be checking for that, lol).
  Another possible switching action detail, is that the tiny increased spacing, gate to gate, creates some analog related delay, as perhaps electronic rise times in each light transmitting gate is increased, not due to distance related light propagation, but due to simple reductions in input intensity, to the solar cell used as light sensor.
Either way, just gonna take some time, and motion.  I have access to a very decent LAB and workbench, and rental (from a Mechanical Engineer, who does Electronic stuff).
Meanwhile, I'm investigating  the whole 'product quality' snaffoo, where those little garden lights got 'dumbed down', this year lasting only into about 9 pm, while older garden lights had more reasonable usefull run times (at least to 1 am).
   Please see photo, showing three 'generations' of these little solar light systems. The bigger unit on left in photo (circa 2010' ish) provided 3.6 volts, wired out to your various LED lamps around the garden.  Then, sometime after about 2015, those independently charged garden lights arrived on market: providing decent running hours, usually past 11 pm, (at least).
Please refer to photo.
Thanks for reading!
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2022, 06:40:38 am »
...oh and some more detail, on the yard light switching circuit:
   That series 'resistor'...I've realized, in series with output LED, is actually an INDUCTOR, green colored, and ohm meter showing at '5' ohms...(I've been reluctant to trace the full circuit, until forced to, by the unanticipated switching. (Priority is more with subsystem exploration, such as that Ambient Light A to D conversion.
The digital aspects of that Analog to Digital converter are a simple challenge, to demonstrate ordinary logic processes, (like edge detection), and binary counters, etc, with commonly known Digital to Analog with comparator included.
   But I think, having that inductor in series, does do a voltage 'Buck convert', I'll have to pick at that later.
Big Clive video mentions the 4-pin 'Buck IC' as being:
   'ENA - 6182', the little transistor sized 4 pin package.
   Ultimately, with some work, I've got a nice, NEURON like set-up, for investigating various analog-weighted inputs, to digital switching subsystems.  But I'm willing to go the distance...
   It's the food cost issues, in this wartime, that bug me,
...I can handle engineering some instructional optically based subsystems.  Of course, there's lots of exciting work happening regarding optical physics, Fourier Transform, etc.   My stuff right now, is kinda like the early telegraph exploration, circa 1840's (!!).
Thanks.
Rick B. in Hayward, Ca
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2022, 03:10:58 am »
Going gangbusters on some array stuff; I've settled on a kind of 'Ten Segment' arrangement, that has a hexagonal or 'close packed' alternating row, and having
4 rows.
I'm just thinking aloud at this point, but the structure allows flexibility to divide further, into a 5 + 5 where it would be, 2, 3, 2, 3 along the rows.
   For 'processing', there are 5 layers arranged as 'Plates', where each Plate contains 10 gates,...or at least gate positions
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2022, 03:17:51 am »
In this view, it shows construction was using some e6000 glue, and a cardboard scrap, as a plate.
   The little lights are the lowest cost,...ONLY one dollar, at $1 .25 each, but I'm getting what I paid for...lowest possible quality.  Plus, they even SPAZZ, like some stupid Zombie movie (not you, Woody)!
Some of the lights go into a 'spastic' blinking, at late night...
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2022, 03:20:18 am »
Front view, of a test plate, looks crude, but just checking what that '10 Segment' deal looking like.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2022, 03:43:01 am »
My first mistake, while attempting design, was trying to create stuff 'laterally', when what was needed, was a set of processes that move, in depth.  In this case, it is a set of 5 plates, each having 10 potential gates, or just left blank.
   One example involves a so-called 'Direction Latch', where a set of 4 optical latches will capture and hold the latest motion...that made by the sweep of a flashlight.  The logic is fairly simple. Assuming you've started down, left corner, that first, light responding disk will cause all to reset. Then, each of the 4 sensing angles have a dedicated latch
   An Optical Latch structure is a simple, in-line flip/flop, where layers 1 and 2 form an input chain, while layer 3 has the 'SET' gate, (in the cross-connect), and layer 4 has the 'RESET'gate.
Doing all functions, on each flip/flop, requires going with TWO columns, on the otherwise conventional R-S flipflop.  So, the 50 positions, of the (hypothetical) optical sub-system, are fairly well occupied, sensing and producing indicators, of direction, of flash sweep.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2022, 07:32:03 pm »
Picture shows that application, using a generic array.
The application is to trigger on one of the 'sweep' directions, of a hand-held flashlight, and then hold that as an indicator, in a little display.
   The logic is pretty easy; for a start the flashlight (beam) hits the first light sensor, lower left corner.  That will clear all the other latches.
   Next, as the beam is moved, or swept across, each column will be a flip/flop,...responding to any light received, up top, layer #1.  Each of four different angles, of beam travel as the hand moves, are featured.  That is assigned according to the geometry of the placements, of each sensing yard light.
Notice you don't get a 'clean' 45 degrees; rather, that's going to be 41 degrees, approx, but you do get a clean basic 30 degrees and 60° degrees.
   I found that going to a 'depth' oriented logic, rather than wiring possible WITHIN each plate, the depth direction is a bit more challenge.  Generally, each flip/flop needs more than just the one in-line column, just simply for bringing in the SET and the RESET signals.
   Going to a partially wired, and electrically switched LEDs kinda eliminates the spirit of the 'all optical' approach, but...helps move everything along, towards some heavily optical stuff, hopefully.
The 'lateral' direction stuff, keeping within one plate, is very convenient, for including a couple toggle switches, and occasional 6-position rotary select.  Usually, an optical output section gets the most advantage and flexibility.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2022, 07:37:06 pm »
This photo shows, schematic for one particular stack of sensing units, where the flip/flop is embedded as an in-line pair of gates, within stack of 5.
You only actually need two cross-connected gates; however another partial column is needed, for the various signals coming into the RS type flip/flop.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2022, 08:01:24 pm »
A friend here had instructed me, on how to post multiple photos, but now, I can't find that basic instruction, in my PM messages received...

Here is a link, to a post, I made about how to post multiple pictures, in the same post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/cpu-clock-times-mechanical-computer-systems/msg3292962/#msg3292962
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2022, 08:27:31 pm »
There's a lot to explore, still, before the logic block gets my confidence, but it's interesting.  Biological systems, similar to this, encompass HUNDREDS of nerve cells and connections, and 'partial' weighted inputs. (I get stressed, at 'twenty'.)
   The start of some of this exploration, was with a 'random' sprawl of 15 or so 'gates' (yard lights), where I noticed some LEDs stayed on, but the pattern shifted, when I 'scanned' over the array, with a quick flashlight sweep.  Even more curious; some LEDs, in that random jumble, seemed to want to 'store' or latch and hold, according to what I did, with flashlight sweep.  A lot of that 'accidental' function, tracking direction, seems related to (various) deliberate 'edge detect' schemes.
   Now, a next action, after getting basic directional latching, would be some more logic added, (optically), that will shut down any subsequent latching, by inhibiting the other latches, in a one gate only strategy.
That, in itself, adds a lot of simple bulk, to a '10 by 5' logic block.
   Notice the '10' gates, making up one of the five plates in depth, the so-called '10 gate', refers to the X, Y array in the rough, being alternates, 2, 3, 2, 3 across, you could loosely say it's a '3 X 3' or even '3.1 X 3.1' as a reflection of an (X, Y, Z) structure, having a horizontal 'resolution' of about 2.5, so you could approximate as '2.5 by 4'... by 5 deep.
Sounds silly, maybe, but those numbers give an approximate feel to the (optical) logic block, and what kind of sending 'resolution' is available.

   Those separable plates, BTW, would typically be left out in daylight, for charging up (each individual).
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2022, 09:18:57 pm »
   This left-to-right ordered signal path has to have more, than just the straight line travel, of a light beam, for instance.  For doing the typical cross-connect, you need to have more options.  (One method just uses 4 gates, or even six gates, all around a circle).
Much of this concern is geometric, or mechanical spacing and positioning of elements.  The wired LED allows more flexibility, for separately doing optimum placements.  One option involves opening up the disk and 'pointing' the LED portion, back 180 degrees from arriving light, (that's hitting the solar cell sensor).
That way, your two LED units will 'point' at each other.
This same thing can be done, with one unit, to create a line up of units going the other way.  Essentially, you can 'take control' of what is 'up' and what is 'down'.  However, things can get complicated, geometrically!
And some configs will work, but detailed analysis might be missed, unless a 'copy' can be had, for a nice display, off to side of actual 'optical logic block', in a
 3-D format, perhaps.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2022, 09:28:28 pm »
It's older news now, as signal flow emphasis is now in the 'DEPTH' direction, but here is the basis, as I had been designing 'laterally', or by wiring LEDs and switches within each particular 'plate'.
   I took the 'FPGA' route here, doing a few connections by default, having inverted copies right there, to use. and considering where to place those big, 6 position rotary selectors, for maximum flexibility, where most all things I need can be dialed in, while some extreme cases can be using full breadboard option.
The 6 position (by two layer!) rotary switch, actually, offers TOO MUCH selection variety, but...I won't complain.
   Most of what I'm interested in, along with some analog processing, is involved with edge detection, rising edge (optical signal) and all.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2022, 05:47:21 pm »
Starting the day out, (self-employed), reading the various news...record breaking (worst) conditions in the U.S. of all sorts these days.
   But you have to start, simply that, in the face of every day (bad) news.  And there's a ton of good work to be done.  I hope my optical logic circuitry helps inform, and yes; entertain any readers out there!

   'Napkin Holders' make for great ART,...holding the various optical components, there, on the wire frames 'trackway'.  The paint helps reduce any glare reflection, of that chrome wire.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2022, 06:13:14 pm »
This picture shows, the use of 7 'gates' for switching and creating a classic EDGE DETECT circuit.  Following the signal path, left to right, that first gate is merely a source, sending in split paths.  The upper path, is far off to the side, (but close), while that tricky arrangement barely works, and had to hand select for best first unit, to send fairly bright and pointed correct direction.  Most fidgety part, was the gate on far end, that acts as a logical AND gate, but both signals must be bright enough.  That is the upper, delayed, INHIBIT signal that will be soon arriving, after light pulse started into the first gate.  The lower signal must travel the 9 inches or so for triggering the final 'NOR' gate there, at right side output end.
   The whole arrangement needs to be indoors, of course, and supplements such as white board walls help.  The 'Output' pulse is very weak, but seems to work, reliably blinking but just only on the 'rising edge' of incoming light that you flash.
These yard lights are very low quality, however...(I don't trust them, beyond basic experimenting).  Plus, that forward operating Edge Detector needs a very precise and 'finicky' layout.  Some of that can be alleviated in doing a bit of re-packaging.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2022, 07:09:14 pm »
   Picture shows, packaging option, with opened up units, there can be a 180° degree shift, of general signal path, for doing the 'cross connect' of typical R-S FlipFlop.  Those two opened up unit packages accomplish an entire FlipFlop, kinda amazing, although more is needed, to begin assembling a counter (for controlling an A to D converter, etc.)
   The counter is to use a 'T' type, or 'Toggle type' flipflop.  For the counting action, a logical 'Follower' stage makes a copy, which is then used, backwards or inverted, for the next counter bit state.  This logic is all helped along, by the use of edge-triggering pulses, (which is why so much emphasis, on getting that aspect of AtoD working.)
The split open housing allows direction changes, for layout simplicity.  In the FlipFlop shown, each state is obtained by a '-P' or positive pulse, so to 'SET' the flipflop, for example, you could flash a pulse of light, to the 'RESET' side, of the RS flipflop NOR gate.  That actually acting as a negative-input AND gate, in the flipflop.
   As far as packaging considerations, I'm already wanting to disassociate the LED, and led wires, as the flipflop output, so that a little, auxillary display can show in real time, the states of everything, inside that 3-D labranith of gates.  Idea is, also, to be able to easily pull the assembly of individual plates apart, for doing the daytime - daylight charging.
   Lol, I have to, literally, WALK my 'computer', every morning...oh geez...
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2022, 03:20:08 am »
   As the picture shows, one way to implement the Toggle or 'T type' flipflop, the Main f/f is copied, with that simple little action done by 'phase 1' independent pulse, from a sequencer.  That copy, is then circulated around, to input pair, but with intent to reverse the binary value, simply to invert or 'toggle' to other state.
   That's gets me one bit, and that plus another  edge triggered sub-unit,  gets me into 'ripple counter' territory.  Getting into 3-D layout aspects; you get through the 5 layers pretty quick, and using in-line optical gates (seven, I counted), going to the in-line style of layout, is actually fun, like a cross word puzzle...
   I will post that, in a few, but looks like, first glance, would go (layers) 1, 2, 3, 4, and then turn-around at 5.
Then, coming back, other direction on next column, the optical circuit stretches layer 5, to 4, to 3, and to
layer 2.  That's actually perfect,  at least for one of the backwards running signals, as another 180° degree turn around gets you positioned, for the loop around of the 'Copy' bit, with inversion.
   The phase 1 and phase 2 clock pulses originate from 2 separate edge detectors, with square wave. One clock acts, on input 1 rising signal edge, while other will clock on falling edge, all done with light...at least externally.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2022, 08:45:24 pm »
   Sure was off-base on this one:
   Picture shows, when yard light is ON, it's getting
plus and minus 1.5 volts, meaning 1.5 across LED forward, and at about 16 khz !
If I'm reading scope right, it is 9 X .5 usec, across one square'ish cycle.  BTW, having HORRIBLE lookin ring.
   Now, when that 'Edge Detect' was placed on scope, it was doing a burst, if those 16 khz cycles, looks like burst of about 5 milli seconds, ON period containing roughly 50% of each cycle.
   Now, I'm pretty convinced, that 4.7 ohm, green 'inductor' looking thing, (is one).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2022, 05:54:24 pm »
Good morning!
   An interesting question comes up about sensors, involving LEDs being pulsed.  In the case of these yard and garden lights it is 60 / 40 square wave, 40 % ON, and at 22 khz.  I'm assuming that retains brightness, to human eye, but what about remote sensors, like a photodiode and LED combo, several inches apart.?
The sensor responds to photons, but surely any sensor arrangement would benefit, from a higher ratio of ON to off, or even just using 'DC' type flashlight, having just a simple resistor / switch, rather than pulsed.
   Some older type optical equipment utilized 'choppers' to artificially produce an AC waveform; that way an OP AMP could simply amplify any light input (before measurement or detection).  It could get crazy, though, out there (backyard garden, etc) full of those light sources, all 'vibrating' at 22 khz, while trying to amplify a single one, they would all interfere...?

   At any rate, I figure each 'gate' (yard light) runs at a switching delay equiv to 80 cycles or so, that number obtained from delay time approx 2 mSec.
That's 2 mSec over 5 gates, or 400 uSec per gate. equiv to some 80 cycles of the 60/40 square wave.
The flip flop arrangement works, as well as the (finicky) rising edge triggered circuit.  Probably, giving like 10,000 separate input pulses to it, when using one of the gates as a (hand held) flash, for testing things.
Other logic expected to work, also, generally, which is actually quite weird...
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2022, 11:30:40 pm »
(still) Massively surprised, at that oscillating / voltage buck circuitry: would maybe see such a circuit, in a more 'upscale' pricey outdoor lighting system, but NOT here, where even the battery has been downshifted, into cheapness...
  I can almost picture a scene, between Factory Production Engineers, and upper management:
   "Can I see (you) CUT another TWO components, for cost savings, across run of, say, 40,000 new units this week?"
   "...Or, how about a cheaper, or smaller battery?..."
   As photo shows, I'm thinking about 'upgrading' that crazy- 15 minutes of life- little battery.
I mean, analyzing the switching response, and speculating on useful ANALOG input properties,  I also generally feel, that the best yard lighting stuff is going to carry folks into the early evening, 9-10 pm, for those days in heat wave, or simple warm summer eve.  These current batch of lights, hardly make it to 8 pm.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2022, 09:47:59 pm »
   I'm reviewing the switching details, on using that
 4-Pin IC (for switching control, in each yard light).
A bit mysterious (pls see diagram), as the LED appears to be constantly in series with the inductor, not switched there.  But I believe that's a BUCK CONVERTER, where the LED, on a constant 1.3 V is either a small, negligible leakage, through the otherwise dark (OFF) state, (being below FWD voltage).
Did I get that right ?  A GREEN color, is INDUCTOR,
right ?
   So, if you look to right of LED, is the 4-Pin control IC, and to activate some good light output the IC modulates the pin 1, this to alternate at 222 khz.  That way you get a Buck Voltage increase, each cycle that opens it's switch...Causing inductive surge down thru LED to circuit ground.
That waveform sure does RING...either that or I needed a better scope probe. (Nice old-school Tektronix).
So, (of course when dark), this circuit will keep the LED bright, by the 60% off / 40 % on square wave, at 222 khz.
   My assumption is, that in the setting for evening lighting, it's, maybe, a useit or lose-it scenario...if enough ambient light, from porch, house interior, etc. keeps the garden light OFF, it just leaks a little, through the dark LED, with the Buck Converter not running.
   A little strange, to try to scope out / use multimeter, as the LED seems to always get power.  Plus it seems; any light level to cause 'Switch Off' would, maybe, charge the nmh battery, a minor amount.
   Doesn't matter, if garden light drains out, each night, for the 1 dollar cost of the thing.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2022, 07:04:36 pm »
   Great news about that 4-PIN IC Solar LED Driver:
Please also see YouTube, Chris's Workbench (2018).
The IC is called YX 8018 similar to YX 8050.
   The BUCK Voltage BOOSTER will produce approx. 3 V peak to peak or 1.7 V average.  Thanks to Chris's video.
He details some of the options and calculations.  Apparently, selection of different inductors will give you means for setting the LED current.
   Think of the possible uses,... There you have a voltage Dc to Dc converter, a Comparator, for switching at approx .5 volts solar cell output, and basically a logic inverter output, overall.
Great !
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2022, 11:16:10 pm »
   The example Toy Piano in combination with Solar Light's circuitry is a little wild, in the details.  Essentially put into the place, of one Dome (push button) Switch, you get action when a flashlight is taken away, from the Solar Cell, on the test bench, somewhat an expected result.  To detect any key switch closures there is a periodic scan, of each of the three rows, lasting about 1 mSec. and repeating around the 3 rows (repeats about every 5 mSec.).
The positive side of Solar Cell connects to that Row3 scan, as Row 3, Column 5 is the switch for 'Canned' Song examples to be played: Mary had a Little Lamb, etc.  This Row scan is connected to Solar Cell plus (+) while the Cell negative (-) connects to the Toy's processor input, for column 5.  That way, the Solar Cell negative output provides gnd, or even lower voltage, to the Toy's processor.  Maybe not best idea, but didn't break anything yet.
   The Piano function there is started when your flashlight is pulled away: causing the canned song to start playing (as if you had pressed the appropriate dome switch).  I'm assuming you had given (piano key input) a 'zero', which, when source (flashlight) is pulled, causes the function input to go high state.  This is consistent with original Toy logic, where each positive voltage scan can be switched...giving a positive rising edge, for activating the note or function.
   On Row3 scan output, you can even see a little 'spurious' glitch, in the time slots occupied by ROW 1 and by Row 2, within the 5 mSec. or so scan repetition period.
   But these behavioral things need to be noted on paper, as testing progresses, due to a few oddities:
   1).  If you've connected the Solar Cell 'backwards', and while illuminated (putting out DC voltage),  the mechanical wiggling can cause the function to start up.  (I've tried to visualize the input voltage resulting).
Then, flashing my light at the darn thing can cause one of the piano notes to sound...and this is while the 'canned' song runs, simultaneously!
   I'm not going to figure that part out so easy, maybe just note it in logbook.  But certainly does activate piano stuff, connected either way! 
   Leaving that aside, for a second, readers can appreciate; that's a Drug Store Toy device, that provides a set of 3 clock pulses, for other uses, at about 200 hz repetition rate of the typical type keyboard scan.
   Plus, if any readers wish, a good CD 4020 Ripple Counter can divide the 222 khz oscillator signal, I believe down by 14 divider stages, down to some 89 hz if I did the math correctly.
   Dividing the 200 hz keyboard scan would get even lower, some 200 hz ÷ by 16 k if I estimated that
 CD 4020 correctly.
You would want any addition circuit to have independent power supply, like 3 V etc.

   This description is, so far, only covering use of the dc Solar Cell...Wait till I describe using a full, Solar Light circuit, as drop-in replacement, for simple dome switch. (Later).
Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 12:15:35 am by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2022, 12:12:56 am »
Oops!
   I meant to say, you can harness the Keyboard Scan, to get 3 different periodic pulses, in sequence, at about 200 hz for the repetition rate, of the group.
That's off of the Toy Piano pc board.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 12:22:31 am by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2022, 01:39:34 pm »
   For some analog fun, the diagram shows part of the Multiplying D to A Converter.
   In an example 4-bit size, the value '0101' is shown, a typical bit-weighted, shown here by area, adding up bit2 and bit0 (that's a binary '5').  To do the multiply, each of those 'ON' bits allows, instead of a constant value, allows a PWM signal, to be summed.
   This could all be done digitally, of course, (but with the garden lights as logic).
This analog method, doing a Multiplying DAC, does not mean that the PWM makes it through any of the gates, intact...it doesn't.  But it's helpful right there, at the instance, into an Optical Summing node.  In the diagram, the left side example has the PWM intensity level at approx. 30% while right side signal represents about a 50% PCM representation.
If that example is 0101b or '5' out of 15 max., then the result value, of the left side example is 1/3 of 30% or 10%.  Right side is 1/3 of 50% or about 17%.
The threshold is 0.5 Volts, in the comparator, so everything gets normalized at that kind of level.  One method, for doing small normalizing adjustments, would just simply pull the apparatus back a bit, that having a scaling and reduction effect.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2022, 02:18:42 pm »
   This schematic includes a pad-down effect, implemented by simple distance, of emitting LED.
The digital PWM signal does make it through the enable gate, just before the attenuating, measured distance, the attenuated, or 'weighted' PWM can only have an additive effect right there, adding it's (photons)into the following optical input cell.
However, the ability to cross longer distances, without altering signal, is still available...just not in this schematic.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2022, 03:33:54 pm »
   Here is a simple MOD; gets you an LED output pair.  In photo close-up you can see the LED was snipped out where that left a 2-pin 'header'...You can see, that 2 pin cable connector and wire, gets you a lot, for leaving the rest of the garden light intact as-is (although battery life sucks).
   LED leads actually too short to use, but it's only a few gates that get this EXT type interface.
It's convenient with FlipFlops, as the LED output can be extended around a circle type of layout.
Plus, some places need an extra, 2nd. LED.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2022, 01:46:28 pm »
   It's a bit Ass-backwards, but the Schematic here shows the general scheme, for generating a (crude) PWM signal.  The 222 khz source on the left side of diagram providing a Charge Pump, to (right side) capacitor C1, while second gate, on right side, handles the typical voltage comparator.
The RC there, 0.1 uF X 1 kohm gives 100 uSec as a design starting point, idea being a cycle of timed pulse width every 100 uSec.
The third YX8018 'gate' module (not shown) is to provide output cut-off according to local light intensity...translated of course, by this third gate.
That's 3 compact assemblies, at a buck-20 price!
Those 3 'Garden Lights', plus a couple of 2N2222 NPN transistors for drivers.
   I might be able to share portions of this, in additional PWM generators, in other nearby logic.
   The schematic isn't finished, and, has the polarity of action probably reversed, as the circuit shown possibly gonna need a Flipflop, for start-stop control during each 100 uSec PWM interval.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 11:47:20 pm by RJHayward »
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2022, 02:02:55 pm »
(Please See previous schematic diagram).
   Looking at the second gate, on the right, the usual Solar Cell has the timing CAP. replacing it; that way the little solar module is comparing for capacitor (timing ramp) voltage, for ending each 100 usec cycle period.
That will need some tweaking, and obviously the battery won't be getting (solar) charged automatically.

   Another concept: there is a way to provide an 'exponential' based ramp, by sequencing up through binary weighted values...a kind of digital generation that would sequence as 1, 2, 4, 8 etc. creating an exponential shaped output curve, (rather than integer counting linear ramp).  Actually, basic digital binary counting registers are VERY bulky, using the garden lights for optical digital functions.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2022, 09:55:02 pm »
   I've shown parts of this before, diagram helps explain the role of conversion, analog (light intensity) to a crude PWM at 10 k samples per second.
   The upper expanded size (yellow) shows how each Flipflop is packaged as a cylinder...sometimes that could be a closed tube, having reflective inner surface.
The Flipflops each consist of 2 gates, plus that (extra) LED on the output end has been 'looped around', to face into the Flipflop cylinder input end.
   Below that slightly 'exploded' view, you can see a great big PURPLE arrow, indicating the ultimate output is the Summing Comparator (gate).  Purpose is, just like a classic style AtoD converter, to allow the sequencer to either keep or cancel the latest of the Bit weight being tested (for overflow).
   Of course, that sequencer mentioned is a whole subsystem in itself (bulky!).  The smaller view shows some of the components that might not always FIT, conveniently; that's the motivation for developing PWM methods, as that DIGITAL signal can be transported.
As I explore the practical aspects, of course that PWM excercise turns out to be pretty complex and bulky, itself.  But idea is to off-load any task that gets too bulky right in an immediate 'Analog Region' where distance and obstructions would cause uncontrolled attenuation.  The PWM channel, shown exiting that (lower right) region is thought of as a sort-of 'PWM HIGHWAY'.  It is supposed to carry an analog light intensity, over to the main comparator, without lossy issues to correct,...3-D geometry wise.
   You can also notice; (red color) the 'DtoA' portion shows 3 channels, a stronger higher bit, bit2, and another two bits, bit1 and bit0, where bit0 is the most distant, from comparator gate.
   It's fairly conventional A to D fundamentals, although the method is slightly different, in that the embedded DtoA conversion is ADDED to the value of light intensity being measured.  That way, the end result is a backwards, Two's Complement value.  That's due to using the (unmodified) fixed level sensing.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2022, 10:52:27 pm »
   Frame and suspended rails make a cheap - stable 'wireless breadboard' (pun).
   The broadside view shows 4 channels, of an intended 8 channel Ring Counter Sequencer, for an AtoD converter.  The idea, for open frame, is for quick positioning, while having that structured approx. like I wanted; That is, having four Flipflops, in a 2 by 2 arrangement, and with 3rd layer of gates up top. 
   So the overall is 2 X 3 X 3, where the 3rd, top layer is providing a right to left signal path, then FOLDED over 180 ° (degrees) to come back, towards ultimate sequenced outputs, 1 thru 4.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2022, 11:02:38 pm »
   Those yellow colored gates, (previous photo), are the sequencer outputs.
   In this photo, left side of gate assembly, the starting gate, of each of the 4 flipflops, is acted on, by upper layer, that is the two phases of clock needed, for the shift register, or ring counter.  Phase 1 will shift from gate 1 to copy bit to gate2.
Notice the direction change, as the upper layer shows LED outputs, phase 1 and phase 2, while lower (2X2) four are the inputs for those 'Phase clocks'.  That's via a wired extra connection, from layer3 LED Outputs.
   One main goal here, is to verify the 3-D placements.
A couple other advantages now, with frame and rails, is that a light blocking cloth towel can be easily placed over.  Also, (eventually), the gate's position can be stabilized enough...the whole apparatus can be placed in the sun, for recharging.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2022, 11:10:53 pm »
This view, is the output array,...sorry if the frame cross member is blocking the view, of center layer of outputs, that, along with lower layer, are the 2 X 2 outputs, that go to the 4 bit example AtoD converter.  Each sequencer signal pair does first a SET, then a specific TEST, allowing gate comparator a chance to do immediate RESET, if overflow occured.
   That way, after the SAR sequence completes, the 4 bits Flipflops will hold the answer value,...a 'Two's Complement, of actual analog value, (being also added into the main summing gate.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2022, 11:12:58 pm »
   Here is diagram, of the shifting portion, of the 4 bit shift register, used as a Ring Counter.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2022, 04:06:32 pm »
   This 'thing' is as new, to me, as it is to READERS...
Breaking news, and all that.  The mechanicals, or the 'Fit and Function' design issues dominate the scene.
But that's OK, I have a 'keen sense' (lol), for industrial design and looks.
   That rectangular frame pops together fast, and the (red painted) 'hook rack' does OK, provides parallel rails, but I don't want all those hooks, so they will come off.  It's a bit of a test, and kind of like trying to see how many members of a BASKETBALL TEAM can you fit, into a single bed.  I'd like to see the job description for that...Something about 'fitting' a Tesla Convolution IC, into a, uh...I'm running out of descriptive language!
That's my zone,...good or bad.
   You may recall, in all this mess, that current sub-system is for doing the DtoA portion of Successive Approximation scheme; task is get eight bits all together in close proximity, and shoot that bundle of pixel-joy, into one 'Comparator' gate...along with whatever light beam is being measured.
   Odds are, I have no current competition, which can be good...or perhaps some, devious foreign or domestic SPY group is gathering up all this.
   Patent Office sees 'Novelty',...but novelty don't mow the grass.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2022, 04:12:29 pm »
   Here is another camera angle.
Next, those unneeded hooks will be taken off, and more of the parallel rails to be added.
   The sides, of this frame, are where the outputs come out, and next module will have more logic.
Current test build, is actually an 8 output state machine style sequencer, but much of the logic looks similar, in long stringy runs, of components (gates).  But that uniformity helps here, as many of the frames can be built similar.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2022, 01:47:28 am »
  The enclosed photo showing, a total of 32 'gates',
just a first test, each rack lane can handle as many as eight serial-connected, (by light output).  Of course it's cheating, a bit, by relying on wires and LED extensions.
Most of the easy mods are, one is to split the two LED terminals, simply out to a pair, in parallel.
   The nice, and only moderately complicated, is the ANALOG (full, including carry) ADDER.  The left side, has output gate, in RED.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2022, 01:54:16 am »
   In this next, close-up (please see photo), most other gates cleared away so you can see, the extension that goes between two gates.  Right-side has yellow input gate, withe signal, plus portions of optical DtoA, also yellow.  (See also, the photo has a V shaped clip that indicates the '180° degree' turn, back to a normal right to left signal flow organization.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2022, 03:19:46 am »
   This photo, shows the empty segment, between two gates.  This is for the combination process, where the (next in line) rather than 'branching out' the process is analog addition, into the little solar cell itself.  Best done with wires coming in, as interior will be host to 5 LEDs, that is, an analog 'A', and analog 'B' plus a D to A  converter, equiv. to about 3 bits binary, or steps of
 12.5 % as the D to A is used, but that is usually figured as 'N-1' so 100 % is the comparator threshold, when switching happens.  Apparently, thats for a cell output voltage close to 0. 5 Volts.
   Of course, no giant expectation, of linearity there, possibly far from it.
   One thought, to maintain that 8 step intensity of LED light, in terms of resolution, is supplementing with a kind of hybrid ' upper digit'.  That would have same resolution, but in a separate analog channel, this upper digit represents, loosely, the (digital) 8 and 16 bit accumulators in 'vintage' processors.
At any rate, 3 LEDs for the Dtoa and you need 2 LEDs for the A + B, the 5 optical intensitys are summed.
If carry, then that immediate ADD is not valid, as the comparator was in 'saturation', above 100 %.
Also, a digital gate, like 3-input NOR, could use that connecting mid-way segment, as 2 or 3 signals merge into the gate's input section.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2022, 08:04:14 pm »
Here is a better packaged Flipflop, a cross-connected standard Set /Reset.  It has fuller function, as (hope) those two intermediaries, the half-circles, should let in a lot of sunlight, while the two gates are obviously on-line, plus the photo shows signal flow is left to right and photo shows the F/f pointing into some more misc gates, (of a variety).
   These intermediate portions help continue that 'long and stringy' spaghetti structure, of the logic generally.
So the LEDs needed, would there, on the arcs, and pointing into the following gate's input (solar cell).
For the Flip/flop, the ON/OFF state reinforcing has the 2 wires from LED output, running backwards, to the back gate (red colored).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2022, 08:08:57 pm »
This photo, of Flipflop package, shows the somewhat continuous cylinder, and then, to the right, the misc gate that gets the Flipflop output, is toppled over a bit to show the look of that half-arc piece.
Thanks
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2022, 08:17:50 pm »
   So while the openings help, while charging each little gate, in direct sunlight, that 'in-line' flip flop is Set or Reset by shining a light on either port, created by each half-circle opening, there...Red port being 'SET' while the other is 'RESET'.  The half arcs also help block a little cross-talk from nearby optical logic.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2022, 07:33:35 pm »
Photo shows:
   That's 10 gates (signal goes left to right), with a simple frame, the straight portion has 6 gates, roughly a Flip-flop having 2 enable gates (4 total).
The round portion, maybe more 'theatrical', in this example that circular part could have the RESET getting distributed, as individual signals.  Notice, that circular portion is 1/2 up, in terms of vertical (gate) spacing.  Various options, but here I want Three vertical runs, of the open rails, going upward, stacked.
   And now, I'm facing the problem, when there's overflow, in analog adder...I'd like to move that 'Carry' out and over, with anything over 3 bits max value.
So, with Analog Full Adder, the light (intensity) could get high enough, at 0.5 Volts, to reach 150 % for example, and would lose the low value, resulting in a value of '1 ??'.  So, I need a way to subtract that 'high digit' portion, for determining the low digit.
   This High Digit channel is analog, and has typical DtoA converter, associated, at 3 bits or 8 discrete levels.  Bringing in a carry, is just a matter of introducing a '1' weight LED output, into the summing gate's square input cell.
   Having 3 levels, and also a twin structure behind this,
all total, is approx 32 gates, where a box-store 'flat' case has 48 Solar Lights.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2022, 07:39:12 am »
This is an interesting exploration of designing logic circuits from the ground up, using optical interactions as a different "medium" for the basic gate. Most importantly you seem to be having fun with it!

I can't see this having utility in "productive" technical applications, since obviously electronic gates offer so much higher integration, higher speed, lower power. But it could be used in a "logic building block" system for education, packaged in a similar way to the BRAUN Lectron system maybe?



It would be nice to directly see the state of each gate in a circuit one builds. But then again, you could provide the same functionality by using conventional electronic gates and putting an LED on each of the modules. Connecting the building blocks in a systematic, modular way is probably more easily achieved by electrical connections than optically?

When you mentioned that "the patent office sees novelty" in a recent post -- did you actually submit a patent application? Just curious...
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2022, 04:13:46 pm »
Thanks for question, Patent Office (in theory), can offer that bit of 'advice', as happened with myself, in so-called First Office Action.
Basically saying, examiner did a 'skim read', and found a catagory, (such as '710 Data Transfer Methods), and saw some potentially 'novel' idea(s).
   The main subject here, is to gain a 'region' I call it, meaning a 3-D space, for analog uses, where distance causes a particular 'attenuation', and electronic sensor surface becomes a 'summing node'.

Right now, photo showing, the DtoA portion, of any full adder system, where the light (going from right to left in photo) is summed, according to weight, the 3 bits being 1 of 8 levels.  Roughly representative of the built in weight network, is the distancing, first the RED LED, being the bit2, while further out is YELLOW LED, and GREEN LED, as bit1 and bit0.
For a 0.5 Volt equivalent, and linear, that's about 62 milliVolts, per step.
   You have to think in digital terms, to understand, a simple 'carry' condition, takes you to the next 'digit', but that's only an analog representation, again at 3 bits, you end up with 1 of 64, but only as a two channel analog, each at 0 to 0.5 volts range.  Point is, with a carry, into 'high digit', you simply add in another
(62 mV) worth of light, or a count of 1, in equivalent D to A terminology.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2022, 12:06:18 am »
To get around the parts ordering probs, I tried cutting short pieces, of regular, solderless  bread board...this being originally some 70 pins long, and with typical double-row, for IC placement, with 5 pin placements, or rather; sockets, that can take plug-in pins
So I get a set of possible 2 separate electronic circuits and battery set.  A snipped LED, and those 2 wires can act like a 2-pin header.  Then, 4 other socket pairs are avail.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2022, 12:08:09 am »
This photo shows paired up gates, in a cellophane wrap.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2022, 01:27:20 pm »
Thanks for question, Patent Office (in theory), can offer that bit of 'advice', as happened with myself, in so-called First Office Action. Basically saying, examiner did a 'skim read', and found a catagory, (such as '710 Data Transfer Methods), and saw some potentially 'novel' idea(s).

But doesn't that mean filing a proper patent application, and then waiting for about 18 months or whatever the current "pendency" of a first USPTO office action is? Sure, filing an application is not expensive. But after 18 months your application will already be published, and you will also have to decide about international patent filings if it's an idea with serious promise.

Quote
  The main subject here, is to gain a 'region' I call it, meaning a 3-D space, for analog uses, where distance causes a particular 'attenuation', and electronic sensor surface becomes a 'summing node'.

Right now, photo showing, the DtoA portion, of any full adder system, where the light (going from right to left in photo) is summed, according to weight, the 3 bits being 1 of 8 levels.  Roughly representative of the built in weight network, is the distancing, first the RED LED, being the bit2, while further out is YELLOW LED, and GREEN LED, as bit1 and bit0.
For a 0.5 Volt equivalent, and linear, that's about 62 milliVolts, per step.
   You have to think in digital terms, to understand, a simple 'carry' condition, takes you to the next 'digit', but that's only an analog representation, again at 3 bits, you end up with 1 of 64, but only as a two channel analog, each at 0 to 0.5 volts range.  Point is, with a carry, into 'high digit', you simply add in another
(62 mV) worth of light, or a count of 1, in equivalent D to A terminology.

Again, it seems that for a practical implementation it would be much easier to do this with currents and voltages rather than light? Adders with current summing junctions have been used in analog computers forever, and have a much larger dynamic range than what you can achieve optically, I think. And if you want to obtain a reasonably well-working optical adder, you will have to put it into a dark box; so you even lose the didactic benefit of being able to directly see the states.

I still struggle to see the technical benefit. Doing it for your own education and entertainment is, of course, a perfectly viable reason for doing it!  8)
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2022, 11:16:28 pm »
Yeah, a 95¢ cent Processor IC could do everything that 'benchtop' maze could do...that's why I try not to get sucked in, to conventional electronics, like wired-in LEDs that, essentially make it more component wired to component.  (I'd like to be able to do some processes, in the spaces 'between').
Right now, working on specifics of accumulating larger values, having, for example, 3 channels, each having weighted value 8X the previous 'digit'.  At that point, those 3 separate analog channels don't have a direct link, to the physical (optical) intensity, but rather are more abstract 'just a number value', but at max would represent some 32 Volts !
That's figured as (D X 64) + (D X 8) + D.
Edit: (D3 X 64) + (D2 X 8) + D1
??? This editor keeps substituting emoji supposed to be X 8 'times 8'

That refers to having 3 bits worth of accuracy / resolution, for each 'digit''s channel.
   At any rate, I wanted some system that could do the long 'Multiply and Accumulate' terms, needed in convolution, in this case can easily sum up to 64 terms before overflowing the register.  This accumulation must be done in-line, as there is no on going storage.
I'm also hoping any PWM generation can have decent resolution, of signal output.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 05:05:14 am by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2022, 05:16:37 pm »
   Making minor mods helps, the photo showing can use a tiny slice, taken off a solderless breadboard; that provides the LED Output with 4 pairs of pin-sockets right at place on housing that originally had it's LED.  That way, I've designated a 'Type M' gate, having output splits, usually two-way.  Meanwhile, a type M would also have at least one LED premounted to fire into the input (solar cell surface).  Eventually, all these MODs make for an IC with connectors interfacing, but of course, it's always been ELECTRO-optronics, so I can tolerate limited (wire) connections (some of which could be done with fiber optic cables.
The protoboard is remarkably easy to cut, using a old WOOD SAW...The row of 5 springy clips gets pulled up and out (the bottom) easily.  I've cut the little strips with having 3 lanes, for cases where LED resistor may be added in.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2022, 05:26:09 pm »
This is my 'Chia PETs' moment...those little solar garden lights need feeding (sun) every day (or they go into SPAZZ mode.
   The LED output distributor helped packaging, by not requiring various twists and turns, creating a 'branch-like' or tree like split; and having one of the two (or more) inputs be a dedicated LED (wire pair input) helps keep the assemblies as 'in-line' and parallel housings.
   Photo shows, the one deviation, from direct 'in-line' placements, has the 2 gate pair as pointing slightly off-line, that way for placement in bright light, or SUN direct, to charge.
The 2/3 size 'AAA' batteries are limited; to 100 mA hrs.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2022, 08:56:31 pm »
   I was going to take a sec, for tribute to the new Space Telescope...AWESOME!
   Forgot it was '6-sided' (mirrors).  But, (Pls see photo), the 5-sided variation does not lead to a flat assembly; the pentagon shapes, assembled, make for a curved upwards set of sides...plus, the top piece center of weight is NOT directly above, the center of the bottom piece.  The Chemistry / Chrystalography folks know about these things.
The Space Telescope, with 6-sided pieces, can be assembled into bigger shapes, flat, without being forced into a 3-D solid shape, like happens with 5-sided components.
   Notice, in my photo of 5-sided assembly, that a 6th piece can be added, to be a center, plus that gets things into 3-D territory, and looks nice.  Other up/down variations can be done, further out from center.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2022, 09:01:08 pm »
   Adding gates, into existing indents, you can add another 5 gates, (notice how the original pentagon shape gets repeated, at larger scale).  That addition makes for 11 total gates; 1+5+5 = 11.
   Also, though, these 5-sided shapes will never go together, to solid plane, as there are always gaps.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2022, 09:07:23 pm »
Placing yet another 5 gates, you get yet another pentagon, almost back where started; that's now
at 1+5+5+5= 16.  Etc etc, but this will never produce a gap free plane, like a 6-sided configuration would.
   Maybe NASA could fly this 'telescope' design...reminds me of the tiny satellites, as these could rely on solar energy, individually, (although not vacume-ready for the batteries, etc.).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2022, 12:46:00 am »
    For a two-stage flipflop, having input f/f separate from main f/f, that way any feedback actions are not actuated, until the COPY process completes, so any feedback won't cause a flakey response that might affect the input set/reset (until f/f has fully switched).
 
   Picture shows, this is getting into the shape needed, including that oval shaped clear plastic wrap, having 4 sets of pairs, in series order.  Notice, some bias 'lean' for capture of Sunlight, during recharge, while protected enough from nighttime moisture, if left outside.  This way, can avoid major dismantling efforts at end of each day. 
   This is 2 lanes wide, by 4 gates deep, and structured generally as 'SET' and 'RESET' corridors, meaning that usually can be activated, using a hand held flashlight, shining on either input.
   (Please also see schematic, posted next).  That schematic showing the 2-stage copy process, that also requires a 2-phase clock of separate phases acting to copy from input f/f to main f/f.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2022, 12:49:10 am »
   Here is approximate schematic, for that 'oval' or
 2-lanes clear enclosure.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2022, 12:51:26 am »
This view shows, the flipflop assembly SET and RESET output LEDs.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2022, 04:48:37 am »
ebastler, here is some more response, to your question(s), about Patent, and about motivation, for the optical gate organizing.

   You are exactly right, it was 18 months after initial filing and the examiner had done a few minutes 'skim' reading, to determine 'class and suitability, for publish the application.  I had spent, virtually 3 YEARS, up to the original mail-in date...September 9th, 2001.
   But with a couple more days prep, and it was September 11th, (2001), the morning of the attacks, on New York City.  I almost got that (big) mail packet, jumbo sized Application document (some 436 pages),
almost would have been mailed, like Sept. 10th...
   Big mess ensued, luckily I held off filing, until the whole scare with powder poisons in various government mail.  The application got published, on Jan. 11th, 2003, just like you said, at 18 months.
So, in my case, the prep time, and care, (some 88 drawings!), were huge, and that's not counting R&D time.  I'm fairly decent, at writing, and did all the spell-check and grammer, to the utmost quality. (Examiner can reject a crappy application; basically requesting a rewrite, by professional.). So I missed most of that, 911 stress / drama.  Actually, now that I'm reminding myself, the Examiner had made the comment about "Novelty likely present", on our brief phone consultation.
   My strategy, was to include literally everything, related to the 'Mechanical System', so to prevent some other party/industry player from filing, and thus frustrate (my) ability to operate (my own invention).
Kind of an amatuer lawyer dopey 'strategy'.  But you should hear my 'Lawyer Story', around that Patent.  Short story: My 'Patent Attorney' drank...er I mean, worked, from home...not so productive, always, I'm hearing lately...

   Now, back to motivations for this thread.  Stanford University's EE researcher is doing optical systems, that do, essentially a Fourier Transform, down thru layers, in a block of CMOS logic.  That way, the device can do some incredible parallel operations...some 1K by 1K block of pixels, for some 1 million operations, all with light beams as signal. Massively parallel, and plus that project illustrates the application right there.  Sorry, can't remember the Stanford Researcher's name.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2022, 08:02:49 pm »
   Here is an example of using an 'inbetween' medium, useful to process some general signal, where the transmit section is essentially a discrete number line, and, in this example, a discrete receiver section takes the output value.  It's very similar to a look-up table.
   Kind of schetchy and general, but you can see, in diagram the yellow color highlighted area is a light diffracting element, prebuilt to perform division.  For better accuracy, an interpolation method can also be applied, to the 'receiver' array.
   The transmit and receive portions can be standardized (especially for what is considered full scale).  Of course you could get silly, and try putting a 'dead possum', into that medium processing space, but that comment really meant to indicate the processing method is all about what is placed there, such as a set of 'filters' that can perform AI 'Pooling', all in one big parallel step.
   For those kinds of processes, you might generally want the configuration to be 2-dimensional...where this example is a simpler 1-dimensional number line.
An example of 2-D filter could be a 2-axis SINC Filter, (useful in convolution)
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2022, 10:33:01 pm »
Working my way through various mechanical issues, right now playing 'herd Management', on that messy pile of gates (and internal AAA batteries).
Trying to weed out the flakes; you can see in picture, that 'Yellow #302' unit has been 'going spazz', (blinking or strobing), but yet battery checks out OK, at 1.26 V.
So today the strategy for tracking that, is to replace with another battery, (also starting out, in charged state at 1.26 V).  Let that sit in SUN and then go overnight, (for another 'spazz mode' trial...this time I will probably put the IC / PC board assembly on QC 'bad' status...(I have, approx 80 of these solar lights, so it helps to serialize for tracking).

   Eventually, as all this shakes out, I will have a (larger) set of 'gates', with many in sub-assembly forms that can be simply placed in sunlight, during the day, without disassembling (to excess).
Thanks.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2022, 08:32:09 am »
   Now, back to motivations for this thread.  Stanford University's EE researcher is doing optical systems, that do, essentially a Fourier Transform, down thru layers, in a block of CMOS logic.  That way, the device can do some incredible parallel operations...some 1K by 1K block of pixels, for some 1 million operations, all with light beams as signal. Massively parallel, and plus that project illustrates the application right there.  Sorry, can't remember the Stanford Researcher's name.

Hmm, not quite sure what you are describing there.

Multilayer, massively parallel FFT implementations have been done, of course, e.g. on FPGAs. To do an FFT on 2n points, you need n layers, each of them combining pairs of data via a "butterfly" operation. But I am only aware of purely electronic implementations, and don't see a benefit from using optical technology there.



On the other hand, the realization that optical imaging can be described by Fourier transformations has been around for a long time. (Joseph Goodman published a book about it in 1968, "Fourier Optics".) By simply imaging an object plane to infinity, with a single lens, you have a done a 2D Fourier transform -- massively parallel, no "multiple layers" neeed, just a single operation at light speed. I believe 1D arrangements have been implemented on CMOS chips, although probably as research projects only.



(Nice and simple illustration of a Fourier transform and then transforming back into real space. But they mislabelled it; should be "Fourier Plane" in the middle, not Focal Plane.)

In the latter case, using light obviously makes sense: The imaging operation does the whole FFT job. But you do not get a similar benefit in your concept, where light is just used to transport scalar analog or digital signals.

If you can find the Stanford reference, I'd be curious. Maybe it is a combination of the digital, multi-layer approach and an optical FFT "core"?
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2022, 03:06:30 pm »
   ebastler: I've been looking back, at my notes and previous videos, on that Stanford researcher who commented on using CMOS as a coincidence, because the material qualities were good.  I believe it was, maybe, at infrared wavelengths, a silicon 'disk' made good optical processing qualities, (not sure if it was diffraction grating structures, or whatever, sorry).
   So, by coincidence, CMOS manufacturing processes lent to good results...otherwise the researchers couldn't justify the 'millions' of dollars that have already been expended, for building CMOS electronics...
I believe it was a 'core', as you've surmised, put in between array of optical sending sources, and corresponding receiving sensors.  Their research in that aspect MIGHT have been less clear, if not for the fact that the various (micro) fabrication stuff has gone through such history, of progress.
  I'll keep trying various searches, but I did verify that it wasn't the 'CS-231' Computer Vision lectures, (although that in itself is fascinating).
Some of those video materials have also mentioned using Fourier transform, in some filters, as easier to code, vs full convolution.
   My Android smartphone doesn't maintain a full history, so not possible to go back, that 4 or 5 weeks, to that interesting material.
More persistence I'll find it...That kind of research helps frame the math, in a practical example, rather than simply stating that massively parallel computation is useful!
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2022, 09:18:07 am »
   OK, found it! (Essentially).
   Found the reference, Stanford University E.E. Department doing research on (CMOS) Optical and Wave physics, as mass computational element, or 'core' as a flat disk.
The 10 inch diameter disk serves as a (X,Y) array doing implementation of Neural Networks, having more conventional electronics interfaces, in and out, but based on optical and wave physics in the (middle) 'core', which appears like a plastic disk, with clear surface.
   Still haven't found original video, but the following info is very likely the same Department:

   Stanford University 'Initiative for the Theoretical study of Neural Networks'  video, October 21, 2021.
Lecture presentation by Professor Shanhui Fan, of Ginzton Laboratory.  It's still very relevant to similar 'Deep Learning' methods being researched using FPGA logic, etc.
   The photo (video paused at approx 7:00 minute), shows the round silicon 'wafer' from foundry, that I'm assuming is the CMOS fab, mentioned here a few posts back.  They are calling that a fabrication of waveguide arrays.
Introduction by Professor Vnod Menon (sorry if mis-spelled the first name).
   Lecture starts by mention of energy footprint, of mass computation for Deep Learning networks, being problematic.
Sorry if cannot pin down the exact time (7:00), as YouTube format change doesn't give elapsed time, in video.  But, at any rate, got the right academic department there.  I've noticed that many universities today are CHOCKABLOCK FULL, of required social media, If you want any kind of reasonable communication...that means no published EMAIL contact(s), even....Ridiculous.
Thanks, - - Rick
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2022, 10:45:36 am »
Thank you for digging that up! Here's the actual video you refer to, I think:


So they use a waveguide (interferometer) structure on a CMOS chip to perform matrix*vector multiplications. It's meant to be used in neural network (deep learning) systems, where one would typically have multiple stages of such multipliers on one chip.

The main selling point is that this is much more energy-efficient than an implementation in digital electronics. The fact that it's also faster, especially for larger matrices, is a nice extra benefit.  :)

By the way, there is also a renewed interest in analog computing, for much the same reasons: Fast due to fully parallel processing (more like an FPGA than a CPU), and using much less power at comparable computing speeds. Here's one startup company which aims to integrate analog computers on single chips, both for portable low-power uses and for high-power computing: https://anabrid.com/
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2022, 02:03:32 am »
This 56 Gate monster (see photo), you could term as a crude pantomime of a neural network (visual processor).  It brings a general stack of gates into a form that can be re-charged in-place simply by placing the entire module in a sunny or bright spot.
   As configured, each stack of 7 gates has a sensor (layer 1), various inverters and flip/flops as 1 bit for each of the four corners.  Extended bit storage, to 12, is accomplished via shift register function.
   As in edge detection strategies, this 'cube' can be used to experiment.  For example, a moving light scanned across the top (layer 1) can cause an effect where 'old' status but was present, in older sample, but not now, while current sample (corner) signal is new. That gets to be quite a specific criteria!  (I think a simplified version, that sort of specific motion detection was one-of-seven variations, of conditions.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2022, 02:51:36 am »
This photo shows, the line-up from pixel sensing down, is organized in pairs, and further simplified by only doing half of the pixels, out of 16 array, (of 4 by 4).
Each pair is Logically OR'ed from 2 pixels, resulting in one bit per corner, in a 2 by 2 array.
After inverter (layer 2), and then Logical OR, (layer 3), that result is inverted, then used as a potential 'SET' signal, for Layer 5 flip/flop.
A first copy, at (t-1) time, is made, to layer 7 flip/flops.
With another layer (not shown), you get a current status, along with (t-1), and (t-2) histories,... at suggested variable rate, around 20 milliseconds per sample.
   (That's an 8-foot stack, of gates, if put all together!).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2022, 06:22:21 pm »
This latest (photo) is the most advanced so far, as it simply allows for decent 'sunning', for charging up each (of 56) elements.
A helpful feature has the base come apart as two sections; each reinforced against weight of all those lawn lights. Plus I'm testing to assure that all those are getting full charge, each morning, enough to run normal at dusk.
   Free running, a signal quickly runs down a column, about 8 mSec.  This system is designed for synchronized operation, stage to stage.  Each pixel 'pair' is quickly combined, into a 'corner' signal, by Logical OR.  Then, this corner column has one latch, while adjacent column in the pair has another two bits latched, by synchronizing gates.  So all told this 'cube' module contains 8 pixel sensors, combined into 4, and has 3 stages latching those corner bits as older copies.  Very similar to bucket brigade logic, current state isn't latched until Q7 copies Q5, and Q5 copied current value, shift register clocked at 10 mSec per sample.  This info can then be interpreted for motion sensing, etc.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2022, 06:27:05 pm »
This design has more open air, support columns reduced from 25 to just 5.  That wall of 28 gates
(4 by 7) contains the 4 pixels, for two corners, each of 3 bits storage.
  In front, you can see the partially stacked pixel pair for other corner in front.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2022, 07:50:00 pm »
Here's an example, using various edge-detect methods, while keeping two 'history' copies.  The two copies, of the corner detect bits, are each timed at 10 mSec, so first copy at 10, and second copy is at 20 mSec. after current (4-bit) copy.
   An event, such as with a sweep of a flashlight,  can cause an 'ON' indication first on the left, then, moving rightward, a short pulse on the right side sensor.  Nothing this, just for the front two sensors, you have a bit sequence like; '00,10,01...' as that beam is swept rapidly across.
   While this perfect case seems practical, in use there would be, actually something like 4096 combinations, some that make sense, as to detecting direction of motion, many of the permutations or combinations of signal don't make sense, or represent a confused multiple sources.
   I'm figuring a simple, rapid hand movement in the range of 10 mSec, to cross a gate-sensor.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2022, 09:57:10 pm »
Viewing that last diagram, representing stored samples of 1 bit for each corner (pixel pair).  That way you get into interesting territory, when discussing MOTION DETECTION mechanisms.  This set-up involves keeping a first and second (in time) copy, for the mainly 'edge-detect' type operations.
   So, with the 4 corners, the bit storage comes to 12 bits...; that's going to be 4096 different ways to express.  Labels are T0: (Current sample), T1 is (at 10 mSec. past), and T2 is (at 20 mSec.).

   Tried various light intensity weights, by simple distance from sensing cell: Consider T0 sample at
80 %, T1 at 40%, and, oldest, T2 at 20 % weight.
These being based on 100 % representing the internal comparator trigger (at PV cell=0.5 Volts).
You could have T0 and T1 'ON' and that would exceed the comparator threshold.  OR,... You have T0 'ON' (now), and T2 'was ON', for a total 100% this time, again exceeding threshold.
This way expresses how to approach using 'imperfect' or 'almost correct' data, for identifying simple motion directions.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2022, 08:19:05 pm »
Thanks to ebastler (July 31) for digging up that video by Professor Shanhui Fan, of Oct 21, 2021.
(Ginzton Laboratory).
  Prof Fan talks a bit about edge detect mechanisms, which is part of the convolution and image recognition concepts for AI network.
My setup provides various copies, of single-bit status at each corner, or called 'Q1, Q2, 'etc as 'quarters' of the visual field. One point to make here is that, whether a full set of data points going back over (at least) several discrete time intervals.  Realize: those quarter portion corners simplify the data by logical 'OR'ing whatever pixels get active, so you are losing a bit of separation details, lumping all 4 pixel positions into one, per corner.
   But even that, simplified has a lot of permutations, which I have noted (see diagram showing 2 front corners and a single older copy that is 10 millisec older.). You could work through each possible state, of those 4 total bits, and 6 of them are clear to interpret.  Other combos not so much; consider the 'all bits ON' scenerio or the 'all off' variation, that make logical sense.  A couple of the variations are contradictory in interpretation so the whole set, of 16 possible combinations of present and past samples becomes burdensome.  This is the environment tackled by some 'deep AI', as trendy as that may sound (lol).
  In my musings here, I'm seeing some parallels with the 'Pooling' concepts, to reduce data to more 'symbolic' or 'stereotype', i.e
 identifying a mouth, nose or just a simple curve of some sort, in an image convolution.  Plus, here, with this 4 by 4 pixel array I'm encountering 'expansion' of data that needs to be analyzed due to inclusion of earlier bit copies.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #97 on: September 04, 2022, 01:39:16 am »
   In this picture, the columns lean a lot,...that's OK they will be secured as straight up.  You can see this 'first layer' (light sensing), having 8 gates, in capacity for 16 gates, if fully populated (a typical 4 by 4 array).
To reduce the data load, while experimenting, each pair of sensing elements gets 'ORed' into one pixel.  Spacing variations (non diagonal for this example), COULD be 1, 2, ,3, or 4 pixels apart...but choice is made to ultimately use just one separation variety, ending up with a smaller 2 by 2 array, (while experimenting with edge detect and with Pooling and Rectification.
That seems appropriate as this little 'network' has, also, some data bulk reduction, by crudely dropping or consolidating pixels (into 2 X 2, ultimately).
Then, similar (or, merely resembling) to neural nets, supplementing current (bit) states, by inclusion of 'older' copies, for edge detect; that dynamic causing expansion, of data needing to be analyzed.
   I think I have that correct (?)... That the neural system goes through expansions and contractions, along the paths from input to output, through the various layers.
   I'm wondering if in cases of contradictory inputs, if there is a mechanism for catagorizing in cases of 'Invalid input combination'.  One example of that, invalid case, could be with both front corners occupied (by user's flashlight beam), followed by NO pixels ON.  That does not indicate any kind of particular 'direction' resolved, while user sweeps the (top of array) with a flashlight.  Of course, there is, also, some valid results, but they just don't indicate a particular direction trend.

   By the way, the real-time action, of the digital portion, is to shift older samples over, (through 2 older copies), and then take current sample, of each of the corner 'Q' values.  When triggered, this continuous storage action, (every 10 milliSeconds seemed about right), the storage action will freeze or halt, allowing examination of each bit, ON our OFF.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2022, 01:52:29 am »
...AND, as appropriate for the base that opens up during component assembly, you can see; the right hand front pair (of sensing gates) can slide open and clear.  That's why that top plate is two pieces.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2022, 09:47:27 pm »
   Picture here shows the top layer #1, (out of 7 layers).
I left a little space under that top layer, just for now to show the usual electrical interfacing is done in layers 2 to 7, by including an extra LED up top, actually piggy-back with the ordinary gate (#1) LED, so effectively the second gate receives light signal from both sources.
The way this works is for each rotary selector, user can dial in which source they wish; for a column (of sensor/gates).  While this only is the 4 'main' columns, of the 8, the other, 'Auxillary' column has other switches, for chaining both.  This way a user can dial in a 'CHAIN' Mode extending or encompassing ALL of the 56 gates.
   If you look at the top, see a wire pair protruding from the upright column; This brings voltage from the rotaries up, to cause the column top LED to be driven.
This electrical rotary selection is done for both LED lead wires, as many components are electrically separate; No ground or shared common (negative).

   One casual principal I like to employ, (especially when that's not a lot of extra work), is concept called:
   'MIB', which means 'Make It (your) Best', a simple marketing concept I've seen.  For that, I liked to spend a little extra time, cutting that plexiglass  top sheet, as neat and square as possible.  Heck, it's only a prototype, but...
  'Never underestimate the Marketing forces...they rule'.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2022, 09:58:58 pm »
...it's a little hard to see, but if you look on left column near top, is wire pair emerging from hole in column pipe.  That is for the top driver LED.  Actually, there will be two of those wire pairs for top LED, for MAIN and for Auxillary columns.  That is considered one 'quarter' section, so it's one of four (corners).
Most combinations should be able to be dialed in, but straight and simple point to point (solderless) can be quickly done, also.

   This stuff shows a bit of the independence status of inventors;. Often an inventor has to delve into these areas, like packaging, or ease of use.  Actually, I enjoy those nasty MECHANICAL issues...especially with novel looking devices!  I've done a bunch of crude-rude adjustments, to life-style, as an Inventor!
Ever have to SUE, your own lawyer ?  (Yup, and he won).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2022, 01:29:26 am »
   There's been other views of this 'cube' and plexiglass top bracket (holding layer #1 of the gate stacks).
Hoping there is enough transparent, for daily battery charge-ups, in the sun.  Might be easier, just use a cardboard sheet, but then I'd have to dismantle things...before putting out in SUN to charge. (I'm waiting to see, if the gates, generally, get enough light, some indirect, for complete charge. Batteries are 2/3 size and at 100 mA-hr that's a pretty pathetic full-charge.
   The 8 stacks of gates taking over 1 hour to assemble, so I almost have more work in packaging improvements needed, VS. actual functional aspects, of DtoA converter, etc.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2022, 03:02:44 am »
   This current picture helps describe the situation;
   The whole 'series' network, of gate stacks, will eventually settle; to an alternating 'On, Off' pattern, (observing as signals going in downward direction, thru those Solar Garden Light modules.)
Currently, my recent re-assembly of 8 columns of 7 levels each, contains AT LEAST 4 gates 'spazzing', simply meaning the charge is so low that an individual gate gets into difficulty, switching on and off at a few cycles per second.
  Right now, it's 7:30 PM  California, just sundown, and a few more minutes gets fully dark. Then, all 8 columns are expected to settle out, into the On-Off-On-Off-On pattern in the 7 gate stack, of inverting gates.
   But NOW, (tomorrow morning), I've got to disassemble the stacks, and weed out the gates that underperform, in terms of chargeable 1.5 V battery.
Many years, patience, doing Mechanical logic, got me 'climate adjusted', to tricky apparatus, (Scotch Tape and rubber bands), so, I don't mind, following EDISON's phtolomy, on invention.
   99 .1 % persperation, in my view.  But, goody, that leaves (me) some territory, to reign over...
   King of the... (fill in the blank)...  It's not so bad, life in Silicon Valley.  Except food prices, skyrocketing lately...
Lol, (you gotta laugh).

  Anyway, the simple test, down through the gate stacks, is to shine flashlight and verify that the whole stack responds...by flipping state.
So, I note the bad spots, for the morning, disassemble the stacks.  Often, it's found that most failures are of battery ' falling' out from spring contacts (due to motion shock), so a quick fix to re-seat the internal 1.2 V battery.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2022, 06:02:18 pm »
   Turns out; I took things too far, and package structure does not let in enough light..., except maybe for a couple gates up top of each column.  Had been wondering, if that pityfull 100 mA-hr chargeable niMh battery (2/3 AAA), was the limiting factor, for each daily Solar charge cycle.
Next, should also use better transparent 'loops', in the gate stacks, for better solar gain, as each gate already hampered, by taking direct light in very slanted angle.
I'm thinking adding approx another cm to each gate to gate spacing, plus getting rid of those clear plastic loops.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2022, 11:49:08 pm »
   Some of this project maybe better in 'Projects' section, but it's all, mostly Dodgy...
Picture showing the array of column posts; these can pass wires, up through (pipe) interior.  Right now, I've had to shorten that whole mass.  The whole package, mechanically speaking, is looking pretty good.  Those columns support the components (garden light modules), that I've termed as 'gates', plus they block some portion of unwanted direct light, going sideways from a nearby assembly.
   Expansion of the stack size gets things up to about 17 inches, (1/2 Meter) height (was ~ 14 inches).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2022, 01:08:49 am »
   I really would recommend the Prof. Shanlei Fan lecture (thanks ebastler):
Please see post on July 31.  Especially interesting, (at video 44:00 minutes out of 49:00), Professor Fan brings up the situation, that computer scientists DON'T KNOW, exactly, how the whole process works; it's almost like attention is on, generally, how to construct a 'problem solving' network...but without direct reference to the problem material, directly.
Almost like, by analogy, a bulldozer built to move dirt, where the designers don't, actually, move dirt themselves.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2022, 07:34:14 pm »
Picture showing Base Unit improvements:. Idea is to have a 6-position rotary switch selecting sources, for driving a column top LED.  Various modes of series connections can be dialed in, as in Column 3 output drives Column 4 TOP.
   Picture of (Terrier) puppy included.
   Picture of Optical 'SuperComputer' base included with puppy...
  A couple of places, along each 7-segment column, has some misc. cross-over, or other inter-gate wire connections, for having flip/flop or other customized variations, such as optical logical 'OR' gate function.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #107 on: September 28, 2022, 01:15:00 am »
   I have 'half' of an idea, regarding Optical computing elements.  In this case, needing an (entirely) optically resolved Multiply and accumulate, using light beams for either digital or also analog encoding types.
An 'Accordian Bus' (or; Piano Bus), is not a new idea.
But, for non-binary encoded logic, the idea is to use a long, 100 channel bus,... that being just in empty air, with 10 copies, of the Multiply's Multicand, which is a
'5' in this example 3 X 5.  Idea is to 'bogus out' or make invalid each of the terms, 9, 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3, while leaving untouched the transmission of  2, 1, and 0'th for a valid addition, of the 5 term, three times, in this case.
The assessment of that valid/not valid stream or linear array, is done at the end, with conventional electro-optics.  My idea is to (figure out) get a way to get one beam to influence another, and without the obviously useful electronics.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2022, 12:37:43 pm »
Keeping in mind; there's no active components until the terminus, of hopefully a long string of multiplied...that way it's still efficient to revert to electronics, or at least some active optical element.
The method uses a third parameter, in the multiply of Multiplicand and Multiplier, I'm calling the 'Facilitator'.
It's actually, functionally the opposite as each facilitator 'ON' bit will invalidate that bit position.  Each bit, in a TEN bit word, has equal weight, (uncoded), but still notated from right to left.
   So a first multiply would involve a Multiplicand, '5', that is sent into the optical network by electronics, and looks like:.  '00001 00000'.  The other number, the Multiplier '3', is originally supplied in combination, with the 'Facilitator' bits, that de-legitimize the upper bits:
So, Multiplier X 3 is input as: '11111 10000', to be added in analog form.
   Functionally, it's as if the device is ready to stamp down '9' copies, even if this instance needs only three.
So, it's a tentative addition, but also one that collects the valid / not-valid states.  Each of the copies are kept separate, as the whole set propogates (at speed of light).  At end, there needs to be an electro-optic device, that will block, or discard the 'bogus' channel-ways, before actually physical addition, or analog Summation occurs.
   For second stage, in a string or chain of multiplies, the first stage answer is in the proper format, that being a '15' with upper bits flagging bogus spots (Facilitator).
One problem is, answer consists of 100 parallel channels.  In conventional hand-multiply, the answer must get split up, with some sort of method to deal with separate digits and overflow Carey's.
   The 'Zero' term, or bus position is needed for assertive logic, but must be separated out before the analog summing (node).
So, you can see, the overall Bus effect is analog, but can be sent piece-wise, in those separate channels.  Of course, there also is (optical) decay effects, mostly in diffusers, and also a need to normalize signal strengths (actually packets of photons).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2022, 04:37:23 pm »
The optical processing thing, here, has an interesting quality, in that you can't actually KNOW what you have...but you can keep on adding to it!
   Considered in columns, where the structure is vertical, top-down signal direction.  So the 'bogus' or non-valid columns are marked, either by higher intensity coded, or by way of parallel tracks or pathways.
Asute readers may wonder...there is no there, there as far as hard-coded answers, like how 3 X 5 gets to '15' as an answer?  The answer isn't resolved, but you CAN apply the valid terms, as analog quantities.  For absolute conversion, an A to D conversion is needed, (electronics).
   When doing most mid-range calculations, a two digit or 0-99 range works out. The qualifying 'Facilitator' flag there, applies to a whole word, in the piano-bus of ten signals.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2022, 04:00:22 pm »
(Diagram showing partial term Summation):

   Reading as a signal set that propagates top-downward on the diagram page, is an earlier multiply;
   3 X 5.  The free-space 'BUS', or vertical lanes are read,
right-to-left, with the inhibited lanes shown also.
(Those inhibited lanes are 'permanently' there, until electronic shutter (LCD) blocks each bogus signal).

   Next, a new signal is brought into the stream, that being the result of multiply of 3 X 2 (=6).  That additional set of lumens is special case, having a same Multiplier, being also then with same column structure, of non-valid signals.
   The total then, in the analog stack, is 21 lumens, with 6 of the columns blocked.  Obviously, such an accumulator in digital form needs a range up to 200 counts, when doing a total after 2 multiplies.  The maximum would be:
   9 X 9 = 81 plus another 81, for a digital total 162, literally.  That being with using somewhat arbitrary 1 lumen 'weight' per digital count.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #111 on: October 04, 2022, 10:48:19 pm »
   Here is my suggestion, for optical BUS actions:
(Also, see diagram).  The input electronics could be doing set-up, for having floating point related, partial multiplies.  For example, a 'stack' that, in series, performs     200 + (5 X 1) + (5 X2) + (5 X 3)...as for the number 1234 X 5, where you have a partial sum.
As shown in diagram, the electronics drives LEDs for each lane, in the 'facilitator' BUS format.  That is the input for the decimal Multiplier; '5'.
   The Multiplicand, and any stages of new Multiplicands, should be in the positive-logic format, being occupying 5 of the BUS conduits, by simple count (not binary coded).
   Also included in the diagram; is shown how a value like '5' can just simply be spread across the 5 different conduits, simultaneously an analog value, weight 5 (lumens) total, if consider each light flow channel as having '1 Lumen'.

   I'm thinking perhaps could fit (one) of these passive adders into 1 mm., or less?
For the column qualifying signal (BUS), that will be an associated paired, with each data term (column).  Result is a Parallel Adder, in passive optics, with conditional blocking of non-valid accumulator columns.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #112 on: October 05, 2022, 01:23:23 am »
I'm thinking something like, 10,000 separate multipliers, which could be 100 by 100 mm.
Diagram shows, a BUS having 5 lumen, and is only shown right-justified for convenience.
   The diffuser (hopefully) spreads the light out, and evenly, across 10 new 'Laneways' or light conduits or paths...
Then, that re-build word can be subject to blocking, of specific terms, mapped one-to-one.  So, for example, it is 3 X 5, then the Multiplier, '3' gets a Facilitator word:
   '1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0' and that flags as not-valid, the columns coorespond with; '9, 8, 7, 6, 5, and 4'.
   The re-build word, is ready to apply that, so the end result is that the full Adder occurs, but only after the electronics activates (LCD) blocking of column.
Full-Scale is 0 - 999 or 3 decimal digits.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #113 on: October 05, 2022, 05:44:31 pm »
   Working with the passive computing structures is interesting and fun...
Sometimes it is useful to be able to 'recover' an ordered set of BUS signals, although when input is from LEDs you can have the driver electronics do the heavy lifting (to provide diffuse weights, across the word).
   Result is diffused across entire word ; and that way provides the input needed for a multiply.
While the amplitude value of the light beam is reduced by a factor of 10 for each piece, this variable is only introduced once, (each), in the chain of many calculations (multiply/accumulate).  So the reductions there (are not cumulative).

   Diagram rt. side shows a system of reflective 'tabs' in the BUS channel, resulting, again, in the Word-Diffuse format needed as input to passive multiply (structure).

And...Bottom of diagram shows a single conduit feeding a divergent and varied area (conduit), that results in an even response across all elements of the BUS Signal. Showing 5 elements for simplicity.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2022, 04:03:12 pm »
   Still chewing on this latest 'improvement', gaining the ability to drop off those bad columns, and go ahead with the full summation, BEFORE resolving the valid / not-valid flagging of columns.
   It's possible to get the lateral or cross-column summation(s) done, but as a set of ten potentially valid results; each of the 10 possible final multiplications can be done, in parallel.  The signals must be split up, into 10 copies,...of course with reduced amplitude, then can be added.
Out of the 10 possible outcomes, the correct result can be distinguished, by the stack terminus electronics, and that electronic section is not required to perform the lateral additions, column to column, as the optical pathway gets to add everything, in-line.
That way the electronics function is reduced, to shutter control, or light deflector control.
In that example multiply, of 3 X 5, the 3 valid columns, col 1, 2 and 3 each contain '5' lumens (of photons flow per second), so the addition result is 15, ignoring any issues with decimal points.  The other columns in this example, do not get into the (optical) summation.
   AND, by the way, this functional gain comes with high price, as ANY structures following will need to be duplicated TEN TIMES!, to cover all contingencies.
   It's an interesting project; Digital Multiply where the words used can also be analog: An analog multiplication result, but that has synchronized or one to one mapping, with a digital signal 'Facilitator' word.
And also with unchecked analog Summation (no set word size).
Very interesting.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2022, 11:31:11 am »
   An electronically shuttered column set could make for a fast digit multiplier,...that is a hybrid, digital addition, but of some analog value.  I've got a somewhat arbitrary range in mind; that is zero to 1 volt.
( 3 digit decimal 000 through 999).
Suppose a fast multiply, could do X 7, on a sensor input value, with some more terms added in, to the analog total (columns merged in summation).
That could be; '(7 X 3) + (7 X 4)', where that '4' came from some brief memory device, but then a larger stream that could include; '(4 X above result of 49) for a subtotal 196.
Then, perhaps, a constant of 149 gets input, from some other nearby calculating subsection.  It has topology similar to river structure.  The electronic portion sets up the LCD shutters, ( or other, faster options), then leaves that 'transient' structure for a time, to process.
   One advantage, of the blistering optical speed, to resolve a multiply- accumulate outcome, is that any sensor signal going through separated portions, won't have any significant issues with being different (slightly) valued, and thus eliminating need for a sample and hold front end.
   Using the thousand counts range, any comparator would best be at 1/2 Volt, or 500 mV., I figure..., out of the full, 1 Volt range.
Of course, the steps are 'linear', 1 mV each, but actual optical hardware maybe only (sometimes) close.
The 1000 step range does pretty well, when accumulating up to ten multiplies (that's 810), and the subsystem allows for 'constants', like '149' to be tossed into the mix (summation, to the AtoD.)
Output would be created quite rapidly, at light speeds, for each AtoD convert, at the column set terminus.
That apparatus expected to be on order of 50 cm (tall).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2022, 04:36:40 pm »
   Filters as sensor front-ends can illustrate the set of multiply and accumulate actions:
  This first diagram shows a typical air bourne sound being translated to light beam angle. A partial obstruction before any conversion might help provide modulation of the constant light beam.
The first cone is to concentrate the air pressure waves of the sound, onto the cone or diaphragm for variably reflecting some light beam.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2022, 04:46:04 pm »
   The diagram shows an audio filter front end, skipping completely any electronics based parts, a typical filter or low-pass relationship can be using a short delay line technique.
   First receiving cone, directs sound pressure waves into that tube...; 12 feet long for about an audio delay of 40 milli-seconds.  The other 'signal', direct, then travels to the multiply unit, along with the 40 mSec delayed sound (that's also decayed quite a bit).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2022, 08:25:41 pm »
   Of course, there are other, easier ways to get some ratio, like here it's 1 TO 0.5 ratio.  But here, to illustrate, the starting and ending Lumins are close enough, to allow chaining, some.
The values are input direct (currently, no delay), multiplied by 6, and a 10 mSec delayed signal, at 5 X.
Because of the divide by ten side-effect, those become
times 0.6 and 0.5...
   But the whole point is, a total 16 Lums comes in, and total 9 Lums gets output, so the chaining of stages hopefully won't bring the signal down, excessively (like ÷ by 10 would, if at each stage).
   Those values shown, cartoon style, are valid, and ready to be summed, (laterally), as the LCD shutters are blocking the columns that aren't part of the conditional addition (summation).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #119 on: October 24, 2022, 02:10:17 am »
   Going to a system, 3 by 3 dot format, allows for a 'shutter' that admits 1 through 9 total little squares of light, (or none, for zero).  It starts to look like a light diminishing filter, in various ratios of signal decay.
For multiplication, you've got a pattern, the Multiplicand, and that gets transmitted thru the tailored decay, as a ratio to 100, such as 24 / 100.
Experimenting with concept of analog BUS style, having a high digit, and a low digit, roughly equivalent to decimal digit structures, and having 'interpreted' weights, for summing purposes, while each 'digit' or decade position has similar, or non- heiracical relations...That means the actual average level of an analog channel might be same or close to other channels, while interpreted 'weight' might be as 'small character/ big character' similar to decimal 'ones/tens / hundreds' stacking
That way, the most feeble channel has strong signal, along with larger represented values, from mid-level channel.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2022, 02:45:21 am »
Picture Shows:
   It's ackward to get last, tenth LCD shutter element in,  that 3 by 3 array makes a nice square shape, of active 'light valve' elements.  A 'tenth' little square allows for doing a '99' output, but also a number like '52' would have a two worth of light admitting opening, supplementing the higher-weight 'tens' digit (channel).
If 10 actual pixel locations are used, then that's going to use 30 pixels across, to do the 3 squares, plus any spacing...
   One key, is that the lower represented digit is still strong; being 10 X too big, by weight.  So conversion to actual template involves reducing that, before all is merged.  That '52' being '5 regular squares', plus 2 of the little (ten times less).  Actual filter performance, for light intensity or amplitude, would be 52 out of 100 as a ratio of input to output light
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #121 on: October 24, 2022, 02:48:44 am »
...This other picture features an older light panel, salvage bin now, but was inside a nice portable TV, vintage 2010.  The TV Screen back light panel is approx 8 inches wide by 3 inches high
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #122 on: October 24, 2022, 03:04:37 am »
   At any rate, doing things like this, mostly motivated by the advantage of having more resolution, you could have something like;
   (Instead of just '6' X '7' type of one-digit resolution),
   149 X 52 (that's approx 7500)
For that, in a binary range of 0 thru 8196 (or 8 k), that's going to be 13 bits AtoD conversion.  So, by keeping 10 bits, converting as 0 thru 1023, or better thought of as 0 thru 999, decimal, you've got the better accuracy, 13 bits, in your accumulating light beam, with a 'truncation' of 3 bits at the final, AtoD after summation.
That helps keep rounding errors out, as the Multiply-Accumulate 'stack' has many terms, for efficiency (hopefully).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2022, 03:45:49 am »
Oops, sorry I jumped the gun there; it was supposed to be limited to 0-99 each,...; so that '149' is too big.

   The format cannot be sustained down the stack, but rather it is an input format.  After input, and summation that is allowed due to the shutters being closed and only open on valid columns (in the conditional summations), after that summation the BUS format must revert, to a zero through 99 type 'wide bus'.  Ironically, you can manipulate the number, sending it through yet another process...But you cannot know the value...; It's just some pile of weights, that's all been blurred and re-compartmentalized, into 10 pieces..., for any further multiply and accumulate steps.
   So, the 3-digit 000 thru 999 in the form of 'Hundreds/ Decades/ Ones', is really a format for input; as a DtoA production.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2022, 11:23:33 pm »
   Picture features a 'wanna-be' BUS style, perhaps...if I can figure out some coherent approach.
   Idea is to have separate analog channels, one for each decade, staged much like conventional decimal numbers, X 10 for each next column.
   That 3 by 3 configuration gets you up to nine...and then you might also need another '9' set of loose digits, meaning that you would be combining 9 (X10) + small digit X1.
   It's pretty vague, right now, but has a 'Self-Similar' structure, when going down into lower weight digits / columns.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2022, 11:30:16 pm »
   Going to the bigger value, like '52' for example, allows for pushing the limits on resolution and accuracy (of some very very fast multiplies).
You can see, in diagram, the basic light 'valve' blocking or admitting light elements can be all arranged in a line, like the 10 piece BUS was, but starts to get unwieldy packaged that way...
That's why the emphasis on a more square or round shape, all condensed together.
   You might notice; this particular structure would be for a constant...A constant multiplier, like '52' in this case.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2022, 11:57:42 pm »
This third diagram, today, starts to show the type of game to be played:
   Idea is to pre-position as many BUS signal blocking flaps as possible, so that the column of multiply and accumulate actions are as deep as possible...(so that only the fast calculation, of multiple conditional adds takes place).  That part is fine...but only with condition that the 'lateral' summations only include valid columns.  Funny thing is, you can still proceed, down that column, even when not knowing or resolving what you have.  In this case now, you've got a 2-digit multiplier, going against a totally wide-open analog value, as the multiplicand. Some preliminary thoughts there are to use, perhaps, 14 bits worth of analog value, but use a 10 but converter.
That way you've got some extra capacity, in the two numbers to be multiplied.
   Oh, and at the finish, of any progress down the calculation column, you might have something like;
   5, 5, 5 in columns 1,2 and 3, in some other multiply, plus a '149' constant added in, to column #1.
What this means is you will see:
   '5', '5', '154', ...which of course is unbalanced, or not evenly distributed across the analog columns.  The process that I have (attempted) been describing, would lateral sum every valid column, and that ends up as '164', which should be dividwd up into ten element pieces, of approx. 16.4 each.  That way the vertical summations can proceed, down the remaining elements in columns.
   Confused yet ?
Welcome to Rick's world...
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2022, 10:39:00 am »
Bold and font size change made by me, to highlight the bit, I'm responding to.
Here is a view of one particular 'switch', or Optical 'Gate', I like to call it. Takes time, but making secure fixtures eliminates some of the distraction, placing various light-operated pieces in relation.
This piece has only the IC, battery, and LED / reflector, while another table-mount piece contains the little square solar photo-voltaic cell, also glued for upright operation.  All this takes dedication, over stretches of days, so I try to make sure that's worth (the extra trouble).
   Main problem is, there is some mechanism, not a capacitor, but something is creating a delay time...maybe could be the solar cell itself.
(Whenever I try Google 'Solar Panel Impulse Delay Time'...I get some results like:
   'Three months lead time, for Solar Installations, in Midwest...'.
(That's useless).

   But in the edge detect optical circuit, it was supposed to trigger on (just) the falling edge, of light beam input.
So I have to figure out, what's going on with the switching action, as it appears there's a delay, before a new surge of light will create a response, from the circuitry. Since it acts in invert fashion, the newly ON light input causes the circuit to flash it's LED ON.
But if that response is delayed, then my circuit will flash on that (rising) edge, of the input.

I'm NOT sure if you already got an answer to your solar cell response delay time querry.

The following seems to say that less light, causes the delays to increase.  It also seems to hint that it can easily take 250ms for a solar cell to respond (acually it seems to mention 4 Hz).

Source:
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/23878.pdf

Quote
The response time of PV devices to chopped light can
be a problem for electrochemical cells. Similar to results
reported elsewhere, chopping frequencies below 4 Hz are
required to keep the waveform from changing with frequency
[14]. This effect is more pronounced at low light levels and
in the infrared.

Modern solar cells, are somewhat different types, which may or may not, affect the characteristics, that paper seems to mention.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2022, 05:20:39 pm »
   Here (please see photo), is some glimpse, of design considerations for a practical optically operated analog BUS.  While doing a wide bus; of 100 signal partitions (I.E. uncoded bits).  It lends itself as a better shaped format, keeping the 10 BUS lines in a centralized or circular - square organization, better to use while diffusing or making signal (cross section) uniform.
I'm not confident, exactly, yet, but making progress on this whole summation column method.
   Notice, I've simply tried methods to obtain 10 signals, for a decimal BUS read, and various size adjustments put each individual element on equal footing, in regards to an even (as possible) diffusion of total light, into a 'portion' for each conditional addition column.
I did the 5 decades, in the number '52', while the 2 'units' value also are included.  Actually I don't like that; as it mixes between the weights, so that format is a little 'shakey', but readers should be able to realize and follow the function...(whew!).

   It can be disorienting, doing inventing / building inventions.  There is no obvious  set pattern, in the novel stuff...(but that's by definition).
I believe that one of the helpful qualities of a technology involved inventor is TOLERANCE, ...tolerance for unpleasant conditions, (hopefully transient!).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #129 on: October 25, 2022, 06:14:15 pm »
   So, taking that input BUS, the format has to be changed, some, for the column oriented conditional additions.  Diffusing and even spreading, followed by introduction into a 10 portion light conduit would the number, like 52, to be split down into ten pieces, 5.2 each, or as close as practical.
   The end result 'square' might necessarily have uneven looking divisions, in order to deliver same amount to each of the 10 conduits.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2022, 02:21:47 am »
Mk14: Regarding a delay time.
  Thanks for that ref., I believe the switching time, as inverter, was for the (solar cell with switching IC, and battery.). That way, (maybe) the real switching being done is by way of using the solar ev cell voltage, at some comparator level, 0.5 or half-volt, I believe.
   That's why, using a series string of those little, dollar store type lights, can, actually pass MUSIC... Although wildly exaggerated,...but it does work, to some semblance; The sound passed consists of punctuating 'Hiss' sounds, to the 'beat and cadence', of the music.  Plus, some of the mid-range sounds make it through, down a series line-up of those 'gates', that being the inverting action of the solar lamps, each sending light to the next, in a series string, (of 8 separate solar lamps, acting each as a logic inverter).
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2022, 02:28:35 am »
Also, wanted to mention, that it is believable that the little round solar cell / battery Garden Light,...that the PV Cell could take some 250 milliSec to toddle it's way up to saturation.  But I'm no expert, don't misunderstand.
That's PV Cell volts ramping up, while under load, charging the AAA battery.  So, you have some kind of ramp up time, to full peak...( ?).
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #132 on: October 27, 2022, 04:06:40 pm »
   I figure to have a thousand multiplying processors in 32 by 32 Array, and here's the numbers outline;
   Using a basic 4 pixel wide LCD square (4 by 3), that could fit into 10 pixels, including border.  So, a 3 char by 3 char array, covering unit weights of 1 through weight '9', (in light intensity), would be 3 X 10, or about 30 pixels across, to implement a light emitting 'square', (or at least a light valve, for whatever light source.)
For that, an array of 32 across would use 1000 basic pixel spaces,...about right for implementing an experimental passive processing structure

   For a signal processing 'session', lasting 100 mSec, an electronic CPU or GPU will pre-arrange the configuration, for a burst of utilization, doing fast bundle-jobs, of multiply-add nature.
Envisioning up to 10 multiplies, each, for example;
   '21 X 56 = ' and being accumulated, into 14 bits equivalent, for example.  That being a total AtoD count of 16 k, and (estimate) using 10 bit Ato d, at high speed.
Excess range is really just an analog accumulation, of light intensity, but rough equiv. voltage estimate range of 1000 counts, representing 0, 1 mV through 1 volt (0 thru 0.999 V).
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #133 on: October 27, 2022, 04:14:38 pm »
   The really interesting part, from here, is that, after multiply and accumulate, of 10 separate numbers, such as an example of direct sensor inputs, that number rapidly accumulated can then simply be continued, as 'summed' appropriately for a multiply of the whole result...in a continuation, at optical speeds, into some more process stuff, meaning in this case that you don't need to use the AtoD process, as a terminus, yet, but rather, it is possible to re-format, as long as non-valid columns have been blocked, by the set-up process, or pre-process.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #134 on: October 28, 2022, 06:25:06 pm »
   Looking at various BUS formats, the 'Harmonica', or Piano BUS style encodes as binary-looking 'bits', but it's a one and only one, exclusive type of code..., or actually an 'uncoded' signal.
The right-justified variation is just about right, for doing outputs, although zero gets a little strange.  That's when you'd like an active zero form, of the raw signal, for clocking or pulse recognition.
   But, doing weights-only, this system produces 'Stamps', very reminiscent of video or graphics stamp blocks.  Each of those little squares contains an even amount (of light lumens) and thus the multiplication action happens...by way of multiple addition right there in the 9 squares of the 3 by 3 array.
   (Reminds of the Pop-art Warhol photo art, where the face of Marylyn Monroe gets repeated, in little cells, across the art-poster.)
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #135 on: October 28, 2022, 06:34:46 pm »
   It's easy to read the diagram, (incorrectly), by seeing 'bits',...Rather, it helps to view as multiple copies, in video or raster outputs, or as a set or 'sprites' that come into the big addition going on.
   Looking at a 3 digit number, each can be with separate analog channel. That way the 3 channels, being to separately convey 'ones', 'tens', and 'hundreds' as typical decimal, but with some 'extra' help by using better, higher amplitude, in the lower analog level conveyance.  So, the lowest digit is actually 100 times too strong.  That way that individual signal channel has enough to work with, making multiple copies.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #136 on: October 28, 2022, 07:08:00 pm »
Those patterns, remind me of gray code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code

Even though, they are not really related, to what you are discussing.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #137 on: October 28, 2022, 07:42:22 pm »
(Thanks for replies).
   The method to read all this, is to separate out a 'Digital mode' for the multiplier digit, fairly standard on-off, at least the signals.  For the other half, the multiplicand value; that's the part that's going to be analog.
So seamlessly intertwined that it's very easy to get confused...But the 'weights' of the multiplier are a set that EXCLUDES zero; no weight means no actual conditional additions, but the whole business of a zero weight signal is messy.
Actual, literal meaning, is like a set of windows, where a number like '4' means that an input value, like '7', will get repeated, each place it is enabled, in that 3 by 3 square shown.  So the multiplier is like a mask, in graphical terms, allowing equal portions of light through, being the light from the multiplicand, (split into 10 equal portions).
Like an old stamp and ink set, but the image being repeated is actually blurred or smeared so as to be in a format that can be further used as a multiplicand, very similar to a fully formatted multiplicand might look.  That is, with right-justified 'origins'.  Doesn't matter, (I think, lol), as either way, a conditional multiply will involve mixing EVERYTHING together, then (evenly!) dividing back to 10 separated columns...
   Down a bit, on a fuller computational column, would be set of LCD 'flaps', closed for the transient duration, of a session, like 100 milliSec. and that feature would keep any summation as valid.  So for that case, is an advantage, that the optical-speed computational 'column' could further proceed (down) through more action, such as multiply everything by 4. 
It's when the designer has run out of the fixed / predictible multiplier(s) that the electronics must resolve thru AtoD convert.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #138 on: October 28, 2022, 07:52:36 pm »
would be set of LCD 'flaps', closed for the transient duration, of a session, like 100 milliSec. and that feature would keep any summation as valid.

You might find that LCD 'flaps', have a fair bit of (light) attenuation, when they are supposed to be fully open (off).  Also, you may find that the LCD 'flaps/squares', pass through some light, even when they are supposed to be fully 'Black'/Opaque (on).

Additionally, LCDs tend to be somewhat (relatively) slow, so 100 milliseconds, may not give (especially a low cost, simple, non-optimized version, salvaged from something version), brilliant (ignore the pun), results.  Finally, the LCD screens polarizer, may also worsen your results/success, in various ways.  Such as reduced brightness/contrast (compared to something which is genuinely fully open or fully opaque).

Faster/fast LCD panels, are possible.  But harder to source, and possibly more expensive.  Even then, they tend to be fundamentally, relatively slow, compared to many other things (in electronics).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 07:55:11 pm by MK14 »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #139 on: October 29, 2022, 05:35:30 pm »
   The method, of splitting '10' pieces, equally, and then keeping or blocking each, has a 'circular' feel to it, (as if any progress, from the multiply has been lost), it does have a useful looking quality of sticking near to some moderation.  That way a string of multiplies doesn't grow out of hand, in hugeness.
   In this, suggested OPTICAL analog the form of 3 digits is also adopted; each analog range channel has same value range, actually.  That helps any signal to noise ratio, but more importantly the fact that a signal will be further split up, by X10 factor, makes for the helpful suggestion, to start at 10 times 'too high', in the representation...but that fits the use very well.
Of course, the method(s) require a lot of excess, or unused 'light', and so disapate more power.
   The investigation, of how to do 'carry', after decimal multiply...(in this case, multiply against an analog value)...one way is to always, unconditionally 'carry' over a one tenth portion, which is actually hilarious, because (I've been) search for what to do, with the extra tenth, left over from multiply. !
So, a multiply like '9 X 9' is 81, which would 'carry' enough to function.
Problem there, though, is to always leave the former column with LESS, as you've moved some of that, up to the tens column...gets confusing !
For now, calling the 'next' column over, a
'Macro-Column', to distinguish.
   Tossing 1/10 unconditionally, over to next lower column, gets you (either) a carry-over, or, just an analog value that contributes, at correct value for the setting.
Result works, but is not in a usually expected format.  Some of an analog value, for instance, could be reduced, and then placed into a higher value column. That's because each lower decade column is 'too big' in amplitude.
   Another detail: might need to accommodate more than '81', might be some more overflow-carry, (to need '99' carry-over.)
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2022, 01:03:30 am »
   I think you were trying to say, (Mk14, thanks), is that this conversation is reminiscent of 'Grey Code';  mildly suggestive, that serial data experts HATE long stretches, of 'dead' line time... That's instinctive from radio operating days.
   The optical equivalent, involves how to, effectively transmit a 'zero', in an active way, preferably.
In a (hypothetical) weighted word, on a BUS,  the zero case has no analog weight, but is very important, as a digital token.  This means, that, for example a '20' has that zero symbol, but it is as a place holder, which is different from a 'count'. A very subtle point, but ..
   Another fine sticking point has been the appearance of 'nine' squares of light, to represent values, in a decimal system...No end of confusion there !!!
But it must always be back to a X 10 relation, your x1 symbol must be X 10 across each column.
Of course, the '3' is '3/9' ... of that set I've shown, of a 3 by 3 array, but that is, further a block meant to represent ' 9/10' of a decimal number.
So, combining that math, it still works out:
   '3/9 th X 9/10 ths, is = 3/10'
So the point is; that array can represent in terms of tenths, not 'ninths', as long as carefully about use of area.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2022, 01:23:17 am »
   So there the delightful feature, that the digital summation can proceed, but on the next column.  This means that no data is lost, only that the data, or 'lumens' is accounted for, in the next column over.  This is possible because the format, of the lessor column, is with having 10X too big a quantity, relatively, but in a separated BUS system.
View it as an alternate way, to express that 'weight', into the system.... usually we just do it, but this way, you can hold off..., depositing the same amount, (of light), but just into the next, higher column...
If a lateral sum is OK then, then that subsystem can assemble and sum (addition) everything, to one big analog value (12 bits).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2022, 05:23:13 pm »
   You can't SUBTRACT the analog light values, but you can take a 'proportion', or split off a ratio proportion.
So, with an amplitude value of '142' as example, that arriving light could be split, into ten paths, each being
'14.2', as evenly as possible, and 1 of those paths diverted, over (laterally, or X10) into the next power of ten column, or 'macro-column'.
This action gives a multi-digit multiply approach resembling regular 'carry-over' as the early school math teaches, to carry a 'tens digit' over, after a partial multiply. Doing, say, 9 X 9 = 81 suggests sending the '8' portion over...; over to the left to be tabulated in that 'tens' column.
   In this case, optical BUS, the carry-over could be 10 %
 and unconditional, but would also do carry-over of a number like '8', where the action is to carry over a '0.8' to the next higher macro-column, while leaving 7.2 n the one's column.
   Did I mention this shii can be confusing ???
   The expected actions would have been, to keep all of the (light quantity) in the first, lowest column, the 'ones' column.  But the total quantity is not lost, it is just moved over and gets totaled in next column over
   Now, as to magnitudes, the lowest weight column is physically separate, and does not match, physically, being 10X too big, in magnitude.  The consequence of this is that a carry-over, like the '8.1' in '81' can be easily put through a divide-down, by 10.
Actual is 0.9 X 0.9 = 0.81 and so the actual carry-over is 1/10 or 10%, and that's = 0. 081 literally.  That sizing fits perfect into next column ACTUAL amplitude, as a carry, albeit a little different from a purely single digit, it's expected to be, '0. 08'.
   Not really that confusing, just new...The total light quantity is simply done differently, but result or 'summation', across laterally, across the bottom of column, should always be same.
This method is shown, in a few recent posts, where a number like '0. 184' is expressed as '0.1', '0.8', '0.4'.
That's an amusing variation, of course needing to keep the three separate, and need to attenuate the low digit, when doing any full summation.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2022, 08:10:29 pm »
...I'm not even sure, if not fooling myself, here; The 3 macro-columns absorb and carry any light downward, each column in simplicity is just a defined 'lane', pointing downwards.
   The attempt being, to operate a fairly normal looking multiply, of multi-digits against each other. Thus the thought, to 'RELIEVE' any overload, of a digit (column), by doing conventional pencil and paper 'carry', to left, thus keeping your current digit limited to 0 through 9.
But in this situation; Who cares ? ...Since any of those 3 decimal columns will carry, who knows how much light quantity...?
But at least that option is possible, and does do some relief or control, on max. light capacity, for converting, etc.
Ultimately, all those summations, down each column, and then laterally (close proximity mixing in downward direction along BUS path), will create a decimal total, like '184' lumens, for Atod convert.
Likely actual numbers more like 0.184 Lumens when all the amplitude numbers are run, with more certainty.

   Viewing picture, a more 'conventional' paper and pencil method, keeps the columns separate, but also only 'carries' the high digit portion (like the '2' in '27').
Interesting, this (equivalent) method brings over enough to avoid overflow,...but who cares as you can't even know what's there...until AtoD converter finishes.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2022, 08:11:34 pm »
Here is view of that unconventional carry-over.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #145 on: October 31, 2022, 05:19:44 pm »
   I've attempted to run some numbers; the propagation delays, down that stack of individual transactions (multiply and accumulate).
   Getting on the order of 500 pico-seconds, ranging up to around 1.6 nano-seconds, which is loose ballpark for apparatus with 50 cm path lengths.
I've estimated, 7 multiplies, with then being blocked from further progress, until (electronics) control CPU can get the proper 'flaps' into place, for blocking unwanted columns.
After that, moving further down the stack, I've put another 3 processing stages, each doing a multiply and accumulate (addition).  When flaps are effectively in place, the lateral or horizontal summation is considered valid.  Keep in mind, optically that process starts right away, or at least very soon, compared to the time it takes to 'close a flap' which just means an LCD pixel cluster.  Suggesting a 4 by 3 pixel block, for a little more light amounts, per element.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #146 on: October 31, 2022, 05:43:40 pm »
   Picture shows a stack with 2 bursts of the multiply and add series of calculations.  The design goal is to get as many stages included as possible, for the very rapid optical process...in order to exceed that speed conventional electronics ALU is capable of.  So, the more of those, example, multiply by '5' digit multiplier, the more the better, as the LCD liquid crystal takes time to close or open, in preparation for AtoD reading, as the light beams perform the calculating (see also prev. explanation, on the conditionally used columns).
   You can see, I've tried to imagine / illustrate that stack timing performance.  Other folks, apparently (Professor Fan at Stanford Univ.), are examining the technology from an energy use point of view.
   In the picture, the green line, traveling down the page, is to represent how the older method was intended to track the validity, down the columns, but it's simpler to just write directly to the LCD light blocking, as CPU already knows which summation columns are not valid.  The older idea was as a 'live' bus signal...I.E. the Facilitator word, which could be set by misc. processes moving down the whole stack.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #147 on: October 31, 2022, 07:04:21 pm »
   Apologies, to any of you experienced in
 Opto-Electronics, as I'm somewhat a newbie...so I'm not pretending to be expert, here.

   I've been self-labling some of this as a
'HILL-BILLY SUPERCOMPUTER'; which is about the behavior (of light) in simple gross or bulk 'beams' and usually without much heavy physics.  (Prof. Fan of Stanford Univ. does the heavy physics lifting & math, according to the YouTube videos I've seen.)
I've got limits on capabilities in physics, but lots of experience with various parallel BUS set-ups.  Industry is almost invariably binary logic.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2022, 09:31:52 pm »
   I was pleased to realize that it IS possible to get close to 'SUBTRACTION', while doing math with controlled light beam's amplitude.  That is, a ratio like
' 9 to 10 ' or ' 1 to 100 ' can be set up, similar to the preceding example of using unconditional separation, evenly, using light guiding conduit walls.
   The Stanford researcher, Professor Shanhui Fan uses the term of 'Processing using physics, such as diffraction effects'.
I like to use a similar action descriptor, of 'Processing by BUS' which mainly refers to structurally modified bus lines, such as a rightward shift, among BUS columns, to get a value change, of amplitude value.  That's a tantalizing functional advantage, as compared to contemplating subtraction of light intensity.
   By doing ratio-based, and unconditional amplitude reduction, it's possible to 'count' those ratio portions down, while possibly using the set of values as it 'decrements' the number.  Can't conceive any way to detect a zero ending, in typical FOR-NEXT loop style, but existing techniques for coding an 'un-raveled loop', by simple listing each iteration explicitly, can be used, in a stack of optical manipulation elements.
That is, in cases where you'd like to use the iteration count as part of some calculation, on each loop iteration.  The way to do that would be to split off some light for the current processing element, from the 'iteration count stack lane'; use that in the current element, meanwhile the main light conducting lane continues down, to the element, in your unraveled For/Next line of processing element stations.
For example the structure could 'process' each in a series of '9, 8, 7, 6, ' etc and all of it unconditional, where that iteration count is sent over to some other module, as input.
   Doing that requires a simple series of reflectors and partial reflectors, for manipulating your light column.
By analogy, very much resembles the bit-shift instruction enabling complex operations like divide by 4, or multiply by 8.  This applies to whatever BUS type, but here the 'unit weight' BUS is favored (over typical binary weighted).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #149 on: November 01, 2022, 09:52:21 pm »
   Here is a view of that optical BUS shifter, (although decimal BUS has ten lines), that moves each column over, changing positional coded notation..., as cannot change a simple 'amplitude', by subtracting light from the bundle, in perfect integer form.
   Of course, here the units weight BUS is used, rather than binary weighted columns.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #150 on: November 02, 2022, 09:03:49 pm »
   Implementing a FOR-NEXT LOOP is holy grail in passive computational structures.  One helpful method is using the 'unraveled' loop code analogy.  But even the decrement and test is only partially obtained, where the individual BUS line shift-overs used as substitutes for (active logic) decrements are the first part of any conventional looking FOR-NEXT.  It's the active test for zero, or for some other end point, that's the problem.
   One possible solution is to let the (unrolled) loop repeat regardless, or unconditionally, and exert control on a parameter, like the For-Next step; decimating on each iteration, until it's just an 'empty' set of operations.  That could be, for example, a parameter that ends up zero, added to the light beam, ...effectively being that the loop functions are expired, even though the unconditional loop keeps circulating.
   A design could utilize small mirrors, for having one column, 'folded' over itself for compactness, but that extends the effective length.  I'm thinking, 15 cm long each, and with perhaps 20 runs like that. Something like 100 individual 'loop' like iterations could be done that way, but please note THIS AIN'T a micro-scale!
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #151 on: November 02, 2022, 09:19:12 pm »
   The program step manipulation in any FOR-NEXT loop is the stickler, as there really is no program step address (register), it's all just physical progress through each series item, in turn.  Any other, separate function would be integrated with the FOR NEXT structure (just described), as a serial series of 'stacked' lines of elements, stacked or folded, for packaging convienince.

   What's going to be super-helpful is obtaining some expertise on a Solely Optical output function.  If some physical output or device can receive  control while skipping any electronics AtoD then that makes for some real speed / power savings.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #152 on: November 03, 2022, 03:16:40 am »
   It's really a challenge, to attempt as close to an integer decrement as possible.  Certainly, with the multiplier in this suggested style of analog 'stamps', with the multiplier being digital as a discrete integer, I.E. whole, discreet quantities of the Multiplicand are transfered.
   Then, you have the multiplicand, a wide open analog quantity.  Exploration of substituting the modifying function that IS possible, (vs. integer decrement), one choice could be:
   Multiply by 8/10: The downward steps would be:
   { 9, 7.2, 5.76, 4.608...} which could be considered as too little, compared with goal, to closely look like an integer decrement; { 9, 8, 7, 6, etc.}.
  Using multiply by 9/10 each, the sequence w/be:
   { 9, 8.1, 7.29, 6.561, 5.90} which you can see, gets down to '5.9' whereas a straight integer decrement would get you down to 5.0 (integer).  So, that choice of
   ÷10 and X9  could be deemed as 'too much', while the former choice of ÷10 and X8 could be deemed as 'too little' of an approximation, of integer count-down.

   All this is fascinating and confusing territory, and at the same time !

   In order to do a finer multiply, could next try X.85, remembering it's DISCRETE, not analog.  So, you need a scale using 2 decimal digits. That would be an apparatus having 100 'flaps', closing 15 of them to get that 0.85 ratio.
I'll have to work out those numbers, but point is, trying to get best closest match, as substitute function for the discrete subtraction, of each 'i' step in a FOR-NEXT
structure (unwound loop).  You still won't be able to use that 'step' parameter directly in integer form, such as to read 'memory' at $4010 + 'i' offset.  Discrete means all or nothing, of the multiplicand copies stamped out.
   Of course, any 'copy' of the light beam amplitude is made by splitting the beam, proportionally, and downgrading the 'value' scale. So, for example, having a beam at 100 lumens, split in two, the 'new' standard full signal would be downgraded to 50 lumens, that being the case for either new 'sub-beam' , as they proceed on their way, into next appropriate passive logic section.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #153 on: November 03, 2022, 03:44:01 am »
There are two ways for this to happen;
   One method, discrete rightward BUS shifting,  eventually emptying to the BUS lanes, after 10 rightward shifts, each individual shift will drop one signal beam.
   Method #2 using ratiometric reduction, could result in a classic infinite sequence, like for example, a divide by two (that's done by ÷10 with X5, for X 5/10).
That infinite sequence never gets to zero, but a ratio reduced series like; {0.5, 0.25, 0.125, 0.0625...etc.} could get down where it's essentially 'done', or so negligable amount as to be harmless, (as the loop keeps trudging on ...and on)
You might have the device execute 2000 'loop equivalents',  at a fast 200 pico-seconds each, but with only the first 100 repetitions matter, as doing anything.  That way, at finish, get similar action results, as compared with a classic 'FOR NEXT'.

Confusion dept. 483, floor 13
Thanks,
Rick-Jack
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2022, 03:26:47 am »
   Here is a good referral;
YouTube University of Illinois Nanophotonics (1hr:08)
  That lecture Professor is very listenable and clear, including slow repeats when summerizing difficult parts.  Mentions refractive index and other optics from EE perspective, and bio-sciences perspective.
Site search says something, about 'Nano-Bio Node' ?
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2022, 07:24:44 pm »
   This latest diagram really sets the stage, for presenting the essence of my title,. involving data transfer, in novel ways;

   "...has both Analog and Digital aspects and functions..."

   The 'confusion' in the picture is somewhat deliberate.
Notice; the two BUS formats illustrated, inside that big blue circle, have a look that is, well..., identical.
The digital and the analog characteristics are equally expressed.  For the 'digital', I figured using basic signal from 0 to 1 volts (0.999 max.) and with the comparator level using 0.5 V, to signal a digital 'ONEs' state, similar to TTL thresholds.
   Of course that's the voltage equivalent for any light intensity discussion.  A glance at the BUS representations, there, inside the blue highlighting circle, shows the 'compartmentalized' version is re-drawn, as a distributed set, once for the digital set, to be used in fully digital settings, conventionally, and the same '5' value is also expressed, drawn as the analog word, in a special form, of right-justified fill.
Either of those BUS formats can almost be used interchangeably, with some care.
   There's still some conflict, as I would tend to limit that '5' value shown, to more like '0.5' in actuality.
It's the 'zero' value handeling that's not resolved here
Notice sometimes the BUS lanes or columns are
 1 thru 10, sometimes 0 thru 9...But it's all eventually going to be structured consistently.  Notice, while reading some of the methodology for BUS encoding, that the 'Multiplicand'  gets split into 10 pieces, one of which doesn't ever get used, at least not in a decimal multiply, using up to '9' separate additions.  You can see the hints on that, down at diagram bottom, where it is showing the Multiplicand after analog weights have been re-distributed, in preparation for the multiply function to do the conditional additions, for each column,.in that decimal BUS.
   Ironically, the most conventional looking BUS format, ((please see the positional weighted word, 4th down from top of illustration), is the least useful!
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #156 on: November 07, 2022, 11:00:51 pm »
   For more clarity, and to correct error, the light beam amplitude, '5', was supposed to be split up, 10% into each separated path, (last diagram incorrectly showed that 5 ÷ 10 as being 0.2 for each confined path or conduit).  One aspect, the full diffuser, I have not yet detailed.
   Diffuser action creates a smoothly distributed amount of light going down the machine column.  Starting from top (electronic light emitters, like LEDs), will drive the proper columns.  Another permitted input set could also be one of the 'right justified fill' BUS format styles...let's just assume a previously acting processing element has produced 'answer = 5' and is sending it into our diffusing 'cone', shown in schetch.
First, the internally reflective cone mixes everything, so each individual signal gets all merged.
Now, being 'bosons', that type doesn't react or repel each other (each beam).
   Once mixed and compressed, in the reflective cone's neck-down, the whole beam is re-enlarged and sent on the way, into the 10 conduit channel, shown at bottom of diagram.  Also, not shown is various light diffusing or 'milky white' plastic or glass diffuser(s).  Trivial to describe, but that even light intensity is a crucial aspect, of the 'Conditional Adder' function, for best accuracy and repeatability.
   You can also imagine, many types of optical BUS feeds can alternate with this specific right-justified fill, as long as total '5' gets mixed down, into cone neck for re-distribution.
   With a 3X multiplication, you've gotten 3 columns of light, each being a 10% portion, and so with result being conditional adding, on each of the 3 enabled columns.  The actual gating of the light, via LCD element, is being called a 'flap' or light flap.
   Result, for the 3 X 5 = 15 multiplication,  comes out, at bottom of diagram, as a '1.5' which can be used accordingly, assumed to be simply expressed in fractional form, but you've still got a  useful multiply.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2022, 10:10:32 am »
   I'm asking if someone can answer question about generic Multiply-Accumulate coding forms, (although much of that info is published in YouTube lectures etc).
The trial and error test 'code' or sequence model would be along the lines of 8-bit integer multiplies that get summed...along the methodology of convolution.
Likely, that could be 16 bit binary accumulation, having each element summed being an 8 by 8 bit Signed multiply...That's the big-picture model, for the do-over in optical logic arrangements.  Performing Convolution is the speed-up custom accelerator's main purpose.
   So, that means optimizing the generic FOR-NEXT structures, and focus on convolution, of, say 200 by 200 elements in moderate resolution imaging.
Meanwhile, of course, plenty of course material out there.
   YouTube, heavily accented and hastily delivered technical jargon, could use improvement, as truly near-impossible to 'grasp' what the guy is even saying...never mind a difficult math-heavy topic to start with.
Often, I can't continue watching (deciphering) some heavy physics discussion, might be best to stick to native tongue...let some others translate.
In those cases, I often think "...Smart guy...I'm not sitting thru this marble-mouthed lecture..."
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2022, 11:26:26 pm »
   My idea for a fast switch exploits a blocking or denial of the re-emission widely known, in outer shell electrons...a statistical 'cloud' of probability, if I got that right.  The process is to pump in (photons), essentially saturating the absorption.  But, alas, perhaps
 re-emission occur still.
I'm thinking, maybe there is a delay,
900 Femto-seconds, before re-emission grow, on the extreme start of bell curve.
That means another beam and path could get disrupted, during that tiny window, before absorbtion and re-emission repetitive actions.  I had noticed, from Colleqeum lecture concerning 'refractive index', being associated with uptake-re-emit dynamics.
   The affected beam, would be at extreme folded or flattened 'X' shape.  'Leaky Gate' means that contraption still leaks to output, to negligable effect.
   Another possibly needed component might be heavy use of timing (square shaped waveforms).  That way, the regular setting, with all the re-emissions, would not be during a short, regular window.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #159 on: November 11, 2022, 12:32:49 pm »
   One limited use Subtraction is one case where mods to the light beam, or actually modified copies, are made.  An un-signed value comparison, on the BUS type shown, (a couple figures back), it's taking the rt. justified, filled word and, 1 for 1, having an active gate close anywhere that column has a '1' to subtract.  Actually, this case is more like digital 'AND logical'.
   End result the output word has 4 places with '1', and so has implemented 7 - 3 = 4.
Taking it graphically helps, and also note that the output isn't rt. justified, so going from there won't be in the format, for column-identifed usability of the rt. justified and filled BUS word form.
   The optical logic is somewhat 'negative logic' in that the logical AND is done via an equiv negative input OR.
A tiny time window, 800 Femto-seconds, is supplied periodically, and unconditionally, and that low-going light pulse allows for a trigger situation.  It is during that and during the absence of clock signal 'ON', that a low going inverter input would cause a short dark period, to inverter input(s).  That then gives rise to a positive going inverter output pulse.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2022, 07:25:09 pm »
   A brief glimpse at the higher speed switch, it is active but not with power supply, but has device delay.
The thing does a pump up of absorption, in that central region, with (only) an aside to the material. Thinking crystal embedded CO2 or silicon, but having usable bell curve, for the resumption if spontaneous emissions, in any quantity.
   The partial diagram shows the 'CONTROL' beam enters from lower right, and causes saturation, at the center of the big 'X' shaped switch.  Then, with or without good timing, the upright beam is the re-emission, from the original control beam at the different angle.
   Drop the control beam, and there could be a bit of a window, before the spontaneous re-emissions build up to normal statistical equilibrium...whatever that means in detail.
   Lower curve is simply an extreme shirt time after cessation of the saturating control signal ...implying a very short time interval.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2022, 08:01:35 pm »
   In the full view, the optical switch has signal 'B.' (please see diagram), where the output contains both the original beam signal, and plus it contains a mix of the re-emtted light from electrons (effect).  I'm speculating a more encircularing pattern for re-emissions, maybe also going 'backwards, up the control conduits. (?...).
   The real time curve shows a brief dip in output, that would then go, side by side, with some static or slow variable.  When the 'A.' dip occurs, then the static (input) device will influence the 'circuit'...taking the place of the light emitting 'clock'.
So, when clock output 'falters', for 800 Femto seconds (10 - 15 seconds), if the other input is 'ON' the logical OR of the 2 beams, will not signal anything...Is when the slow or static 'B' input is 'OFF' that the 'negative true signal happens.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2022, 08:45:59 pm »
   Oops, sorry I was a little sloppy / inaccurate there:
The 'A' input is an always there, periodic pulse, very fast, but avoids having to control it.  That clock signal generation is a story in itself, (120 Thz with 800 FS
or 0.800 pico-Seconds.)
  Input 'B' is the beam you want to affect; the main aspect is the inverting effect, that gives ability to implement various logic.  For easy example is the 'disruptive' effect being described, at the very start of the re-emission build-up, but a 'conditional' disruption, so that some, if crude, control is gained.


   
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2022, 08:59:36 pm »
   Here are some more 'napkin notes', concerning the art of simple subtraction.  And please note; the 'un-signed integer subtraction omits about half the range, stopping at '0'.  But, some signal proc functions want that.
   To do a subtract, '56 minus 8':
   Sounds maybe silly, but;
   Doing Minus 1, 8 times,
   56 minus (56/56) = 55,
  Or, 56 - (56 X 0.0178) ...ahem.

   Then, another round :
   To do '55' - 1 is minus (55/55)
   Or - (55 X 0.0181)...

And, next round will be;
   - ( 54 X 0.0185)...
Etc etc, until 8 of those happen.
That, naturally, would be slightly off, from pure digital results, but getting accuracy is the challenge.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #164 on: November 13, 2022, 05:27:32 pm »
   Graph shows the ratio substitute for doing (perfect) digital subtraction.  The integer subtraction would be nice but you literally don't know what's there.  Owing to the fact that each real number, or a 2 digit digital set, has a count that varies in proportion to size, you cannot predict the exact size, for example, to subtract from '50' by way of ratio multiplying, vs size reduction to '30'.  In those cases, when using RATIO = .8 the 50 value goes, exactly correct, to =40.  The '30' with same ratio, .8, goes to =24, which is high by 4 counts.
The curve matching trials work good at ratio =0.8 X or at ratio of 0.7 for better low end match-up with ideal. That has bigger error percentage but in the bigger size numbers, range 80 to 99.
   The result is very similar to integer decrement, although with analog values, or real number smooth.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #165 on: November 14, 2022, 05:17:52 pm »
   I'm pleased to see a way to decrement, as near to integer style as possible, and using simple ratiometric (multiply by 0.8) that's multiply by zero point eight.
Why can't text entry show that, without emojis ?

method. Each time in turn, a decrement is done, on the integer subtrahend (to be subtracted) and, one for one 'subtraction' from the minuend, to obtain answer.
It helps, to assume EVERY number digit, for subtraction, is '5' (not entirely true, lol).  In this example (please see diagram), I've tried to left-right 'FLIP' the word for taking off from the top end (left side of number) to see if that tactic helps the answer word format, that is, if the ending format can be 'right justified' filled, (it does, but only for the case of minuend being a '9'...others don't work).
   The procedure, assuming subtrahend in proper, right justified filled, is to diminish the subtrahend by way of physically shifting (to the right), while diminishing the minuend coresponding column, usually doing that via masking as logical (bit-wise) AND digital.
   It's very analogous to the previously described multiply actions, where the 'mask' indicated places to conditional add.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 05:22:00 pm by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2022, 01:59:35 am »
   The idea behind the high speed switch is to create a timing of the statistical delay, of emissions.  That's a pain in the ass!  With a (first) timed event, such as pulse firing a laser LED, I'm thinking that would depend on INPUT, light, and would be timed for a bit later, while the device, or excited/depleted atoms is suppressed. That might only be 900 Femto-seconds!
   This way, feeding a non-conditional clock, negative logic, any 'conditional' input state, on or off, would be inverted, in a sense, (not statically).
If, clock arrives, falling edge, and that saturating or statistically delayed signal is also low, that can trigger the following logical AND stage.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2022, 03:01:55 am »
   The input must be equisitely timed, and lands in a window.  That input gating is a chore for subsystem design.  Would need a short window, 800 femto-sec. that is issued periodically, as a clock.
Any resulting short light impulse, would, usually be low going or a brief pause.
When the two signals are merged, the path would be of content of regular clock, (very brief), and an inverted pulse, or short low-going.  That's, in total still dark or '0' so the gate output does not get 'disrupted'.   Outputs operate, as the incoming pulse, is negative logic AND.
   Then, for a positive pulse light output, just simply send to a next inverter.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #168 on: November 15, 2022, 05:39:24 pm »
   The diagram is not completely right, but shows the so-called 'Clocked Inverter'... or synchronous pick-up.
Input being active, that's a '1' encoded. Then, that light input flow abruptly stopping; I'm hoping that the device, a light pumped laser, similar to LED type, see 2nd waveform.
   The 2nd wave is statistical time to 'mean' recovery, of the very brief stoppage.  That's on order of
1200 Femto-seconds, at 10 to -15.  Third graph, lower, is the 'Inverted' pulse output.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2022, 06:36:39 pm »
!  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !
My earlier post, seemed to get missed.
So I put this in, to make it more likely to get noticed.
Sorry . . . . ...    :-[   :-[   :-[
!  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !  !


   The diagram is not completely right, but shows the so-called 'Clocked Inverter'... or synchronous pick-up.
Input being active, that's a '1' encoded. Then, that light input flow abruptly stopping; I'm hoping that the device, a light pumped laser, similar to LED type, see 2nd waveform.
   The 2nd wave is statistical time to 'mean' recovery, of the very brief stoppage.  That's on order of
1200 Femto-seconds, at 10 to -15.  Third graph, lower, is the 'Inverted' pulse output.

Given that modern chips, can have billions of transistors on them, operating at rather high speeds, and then produced in mass production, for sale at reasonable prices.

Or even 5.3 Trillion Transistors!    8)    8)    8)

See here:
Quote
Micron's 2 terabyte (3D-stacked) 16-die, 232-layer V-NAND flash memory chip, with 5.3 trillion floating-gate MOSFETs (3 bits per transistor).

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count


How can a light based logic system, made out of individual components, such as laser sources.  Attempt to compete with that.

E.g. You make your device, with 5 transistor like, light gate things.

But these latest chips, can have 5.3 Trillion transistors.

So, a ratio of a Trillion to 1, which is mindbogglingly difficult to comprehend.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #170 on: November 15, 2022, 07:08:44 pm »
   Here's a glimpse of a 'code loop', or what you might see with Basic.  Thanks, Mk14, folks are saying they want, some semblance to existing processing, but mostly, like you say, at massively small scales.

   The optical For-Next structure would start at 2000 loops, however that would be done in 50 runs, at 40 code steps each run.  That's considered 'vertical', downward, just a convention, while a recirculating path going upward is, again, more just conveinient language to describe circulation.
   It's whimsical, but wondering if a short light impulse could be shorter than the stack or code stack.
Each 'for-next run would decrement the loop count, but only that one time.  Using the active fast gate...
   The right hand side of circulation diagram has upward paths, of each BUS element, as possibly undergoing a simple amplification stage, for recirculation maintainance.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2022, 08:59:51 pm »
   I was figuring 300 pico-seconds per frame...that is per 10 cm.
   But that includes '40' structures, vertically, so it's more close to 300/40 = 7.5 pico-seconds per processing element (path).  That could be something like 'X - 201' in that case having maybe an 'X' and a 'Y' register,...all starting to look like a simple programmable processor.
   Standardized full size would be '000' thru '999' with various decimal pt. locations.  One problem, with using such primative logic, is the BUS amplitude issue, when any computational outcome involves more weight.
Take, for example, '2 minus 4 = 8' as a low digit generator, needing 8 places having '1' or digital 'ON'.
That issue has solutions, rather unpleasant.
   The For-Next example, there is no explicit PC or line number, it is by location.  An example would be doing 3 different things, repeating during the 40 code steps or loop pass.
   One function is the usual decrement and test, at end of loop downward pass.  That is a 2 digit number, decrementing, while handling any of the underflow 'borrow' type signal, to the next higher digit.  So, 50 loops to start, then each bottom of pass will decrement using fairly simple shift right, but the underflow, borrow is the hassle.
   A second function example, would be a generator, that calculates 'triangular numbers', up to 15, where each is added, rather than factorial style multiply.
Each result then added, into the 'X' number virtual register (light path column).
   Then, example 3, the optical 'code' stack or list, could input some sensor, gated to virtual register 'Y'.
Each of these heavy pathed BUS sets are 10 wide,...so miniaturizing might be the ONLY way.
An example processing, on the sensor, say at 2 digits or '00' thru '99', could pre-process by multiply the immediate sensor input by (digital) set value(s).
All very fast, if maybe sloppy.
   Each if those 3 examples would be interleaved into the 40 available slots, so maybe flexible assignments could be 'coded' which just means slang for building that particular function step, in reflective or other elements, for example.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2022, 05:15:51 pm »
   Please excuse the numbers, but comes up to
  12, 500, 000 individual BUS paths...Any questions ?
   Some recent matrix organization is going upwards, from 100 by 100.  So suggested is (250 X 250), which is about 62 K or 62,500.
That's close, also, to binary (256 X 256).
So, with 4 registers, each having 3 digits X 10 lines or paths, it gets up there; 140 individual optical paths when you've also included a loop iteration counter.
So, the figure is 62 thousand processing BUS elements times 140 getting 8 or 9 million,...headed to 12 M soon!

   Not actually that intimidating, when I read some Quadrillion nerve related connecting elements ...which sounds farcical, in the face of it, but apparently the biological systems account for huge numbers of functioning connective elements.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #173 on: November 16, 2022, 07:08:52 pm »
(Please see attached diagram),. The 100 data lines, or paths aren't so bad when organized square. The 10 by ten square naturally holds 10 data BUS sets
Diagram shows highlight on the 'B' register, Low, or 'BL' for short ID of the digit.
 
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #174 on: November 16, 2022, 07:16:57 pm »
   Looks maybe odd, at first, but this next diagram features a 'code step'...really a 'load value' type instruction, although not some code step you could type in.  In Basic, that might be 'Let BL = 3' or for microprocessor might be transfer from elsewhere in the little processing sub-unit.
   The light wave conduits block the 'old' BUS value, completely, then substitute the new constant value, into the flow, so to speak, or the 'virtual BUS'.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2022, 11:20:17 pm »
   Doing things in decimal form maybe looks old fashioned, but it's just a handy smaller size.  For doing the fairly standard carry flag, as in many microprocessors, it's a mess to attempt, directly in optical and multi-digit BUS format.
   Doing a two-digit capable BUS, at 100 individual lines or optical paths, has a counting depth of 100, while the Loop or segment replacing a small loop pass, has a depth of 40.  That way, as long as a counting variable is limited to 40 it will not overflow.  Then, at the bottom of the full pass, the active components (hopefully fast) can do the limit checking using conditional test.
Many cases, a programmer knows where some count is, down through the stack or list, implicitly.  But, for demo purposes let's assume we don't have complete control or predictability, on a count, just only that it won't exceed '40'.
   Those 40 bubbles are not 1 line, but represent a simple run, say less than 10 lines, although could just be 1 line of function.  (Please also see the diagram, having macro-run of 40 little bubble runs, back a few).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #176 on: November 17, 2022, 11:28:48 pm »
   Doing the way way down functional actions, a 100 line BUS is huge, but the continuous format is interesting and similarly mirrors analog, in positional image view.
   For a Fast Preview, try compress the BUS sizes, to a 'guesstimating' capacity, say at 5 states per BUS word.
Then implement that as co-processing look-ahead, of course using some care with much reduced number capacity.  But might be useful, as super-fast look-ahead at '00' thru '24' range, base 5 radix and all.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #177 on: November 19, 2022, 03:12:19 pm »
   The fit is not too bad, estimates are a 'cube' at
100 by 100 mm.  Has 250 individual processing elements,...those each being a primitive single digit, and that's on 2 axis, so it's 250 x 250 = 62,500.
   Vertically, it's 40 'bubbles', or they represent the 'Jth' iteration, in a FOR-NEXT LOOP pass
Now, with implicit positioning, the low digit of your iteration count can be left implicit.  The high digit, or 'JH', loop digit, can be decremented, every 10 bubbles, or more informal, is to decrement 4 times, each 'code pass' where that is being done at 40 bubbles per.
   The diagram shows, 4 slices, each can be doing up to approx. 10 lines worth of code.  So...that's an estimate of 400 lines of function, going down thru the 100 layer stack, (likely silicon, at 1 mm thick each).

 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #178 on: November 19, 2022, 03:20:27 pm »
A good simple set, for single digit functioning, is shown, having 5 registers, plus another 5 second set.  That way, small routines or segments of code can do roughly 2 moderate tasks, or several simpler
   Often, the upper digit, JH of the loop count 'J', is in right-justified and filled BUS format, ready to go for any analog related use.
As shown, the 2 half's or segments, of processor, can communicate with other 'squares' surrounding, forming crude parallel data network, at least to short distance neighbors (bordering processors).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #179 on: November 20, 2022, 03:12:52 pm »
   Getting all this to show some function, suppose class 'assignment' is to show the (optical multi-processor), steps, or 'j' iterations, as an analog ramp.
   So, using a Silicon Compiler, the 'Looping' inner code loop, is actually unwound, into 40 separate bubbles, each being 10 lines max , without any real strict reason to be completely repetitive.  Much of that is imposed artificially.
   Looking at diagram, of BUS merging, signal by signal, there is an ideal ratio, about 1 to 10, if horizontal conduit width vs vertical run.  You can see approx that, in one conduit, while when viewing as a whole, from ten line BUS, or at least 9 line, the signal 'run' ratio is closer to 1 to 2...; with the wide, decimal BUS
   BUS Formats, you have to be very flexible, in application of the many.  Some BUS formats wish to self-identity, as 'Base 12, center fill',...so be it.
   Now, those 'j for NEXT' segments have the value incremented virtually, but only in the compiler.  So, for the 'homework' assignment, the low digit implied count value is reversed, for counting downward, in a real register having ten positions (9 for analog weight purposes).
You start at '9', for repetitive ramp outputs, each count value.  So, that happens in every burst or bubble, of up to ten instructions, by compiler inserting the shift-right model, as decrement.
Knowing that value, but still only implicitly, allows you to put a code line, to periodically update the high or second digit.  That saves a ton of hassle, essentially doing the digit to digit carry, explicitly instead of relying on a conditional operation.
Even more of a bonus; the little 1/10 portion split off from upper or 2nd. digit can be used as the light source for the (periodic) reload, of low digit value.  That means laterally transfer, to lower macro-column, and re-define of a lower amplitude standard there.
Picture shows diagram, of Load instruction and vertical to horizontal ratios.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #180 on: November 20, 2022, 03:14:06 pm »
Diagram of 'Load R with 3'.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #181 on: November 20, 2022, 03:31:01 pm »
The details, in shifting to do counting ..multi-digit can get lost, between the weeds and alligators, but it's design details like:
   The high or second 'TENS' column digit is decremented first, upon arrival at a roll-over point. That way, that's a count-worth of light amplitude being 'thrown away' that instead can supply, at 10X reduction, the light for the LOAD constant = 9 that initializes the small or 'ONES' digit.
   Diagram showing, how each shift, of the high digit, 'JH', results in that carry or borrow actually, coming out for re-use initializing the lower column
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #182 on: November 20, 2022, 04:10:31 pm »
   More details, on the process of generating a two-digit ramp, counting down (digitally) by way of shifting 'bit flags' so-called because it's not a binary organized BUS.
   (Please also see diagram).  The Fuller view, having a messy set of two BUS passive structure runs, has featured that combiner-redistributer that will produce or source a set of 9 equal-weighted lines, for reinitializing the lower digit, each cycle of decades.
That way, as shown, you go from 31, to 30, to 29; all while properly handling the result to reflect an underflow or borrow, from the 2-digit lower reg. ('JL', held in A1 register, for example).  Upper digit register or virtual register column, is 'JH'.
The separator and diffuser had been mentioned, a while back, for analog.  But...with care, the re-created BUS word can be 'interpreted' in digital terms, by the sensing switches.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #183 on: November 20, 2022, 07:32:04 pm »
   I figure on the order of 3 pico-seconds, to do the action to shift the BUS, to then compress and redistribute, and finally, to re-enclose or separate the 9 signals...allowing for the re-use by initializing the next set of decrements (shifts), of low digit.
   Full 40 station run, is going to be approx. 2 Ghz rate, of circular calculation sessions.  That's about
500 pico-seconds per loop.  For the case of nesting loops, the For-Next i= 1 to 50, that's a pretty typical outer loop...It's the " j'th " or For-Next j= 1 to 40, that is not really a loop, but a linear bunch of repetitive blocks.
   So, anyway, taking 40 bubbles x 10 lines each, the 500 pico-seconds gets to 500 / 400 or 1.25 pico-seconds per line of 'code'...not bad.
Or, could look at it as, 2 Ghz x 400 lines per pass, or 800 Ghz equiv. doing single integer manipulations.
   That's before accounting for the 62,500 independent processing elements, each with 10 registers.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #184 on: November 20, 2022, 09:35:39 pm »
   To show the (estimated) run, through a single, 1 mm wafer, perhaps having 100 mm per side, in usable silicon, see diagram.
   Four runs, of ten each will cover the territory, albeit backwards in real registers.  The diagram indicates 4 of those mockup slices, seen in middle rt., the 4 are in series, thru the depth (of the 1 mm wafer).
   You can, at least get a sense for how the count
 run-down, on the larger digit, is sparse, or less frequent, than the low digit, that counts out every 'bubble' there
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #185 on: November 20, 2022, 09:43:09 pm »
   Close-up shows the one bubble, having (up to) ten functional 'code lines', primitives like
   ' Multiply Y1 = Y1 x X1 '.
...or some kind of addition, some diffuser , or BUS splitter of all sorts.
   Notice, this bubble has a decrement, 10 steps out of the 40 available, so in this special case that ramp is getting higher priority, at 25 % of total.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #186 on: November 20, 2022, 10:12:13 pm »
   Oops, sorry, not quite described right. (This is many new things, at once).
   In the 100 silicon wafers (stacked and aligned), the '40' bubbles of code bursts are interspersed; firstly they have every-other (wafer) but also there is a 'Utility' slice or wafer, every decade, so it turns out there are 4 wafers in every 10 layers, that have the passive BUS manipulating structures (like the shifting).
It's each of those, 40 throughout, but at each burst of ten should be 1 shift (I showed all ten at once, but that's not correct !).
So, with attention to that lower digit 'j' in the For-Next type approach, I had been attempting to show how convoluted or extensive the element count gets,...just to decrement a represented (2 - digit) number.
The decrement is then using 10% or 1 in ten of each bubble.  It got super tedius / boring to draw each if the ten iterations. Actually, in reality those code lines are stretched out, interspersed out into 10X the run shown, (while other functions 'time share'.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #187 on: November 20, 2022, 11:30:38 pm »
   To employ a little drama, picture shows 10 slices in a wafer, each at 100 microns.
All stretched out, but just one of those, the first paper slip, has a decrement, shown next, but it takes a '39' down to '38', as a first action, in that run of 10.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #188 on: November 20, 2022, 11:38:01 pm »
Next, here; Picture shows the head of those ten slips, after all ten wafers have been encountered, (at the tenth), this time, the first slot, for the 'j' count-down, is doing a roll-over, '20' down to '19', by explicitly creating a new '9' set of BUS signals, all on.
All this just to show the scale, of having 40 of the wafers giving 10 'instructions' space each.  That's at 100 micrometers per 'instruction', thru the wafer thickness or depth.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #189 on: November 20, 2022, 11:42:59 pm »
Actually, that last slide bleeds into a couple more slots, in the 10 vertical slots available, owing to the diffuser and re-separator needing another two program steps.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #190 on: November 21, 2022, 01:26:21 am »
   For an easy, but fast sawtooth generator, having analog output, this thing does 2 Ghz repetition rate, shown in about 3 full sawtooth waveforms, each completing a cycle in 30 counts, over the 500 picosecond optical loop.  That's 40 samples x 2 Ghz or equiv to 80 Giga samples / sec. counting the extended time the sawtooth stays at zero amplitude, as part of the repeated cycle.
  For questions about speed, consider the two-signal bus line 'reverser' that will create an opposing copy, ON or OFF, each bubble, or (average) at 80 Ghz.  That would actually be at 40 Ghz, as it takes 2 reversals.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 01:28:39 am by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #191 on: November 21, 2022, 02:44:46 am »
   The time, coursing down thru stack of 100 Silicon wafers, apparently will be:
   400 Terra-hz (Thz), for infra-red 760 nm.
   Then 1,000 cycles of that light spans 760 um, or almost a mm.  So, 1400 cycles gets close, to the
 full 1 mm of a wafer thickness, at IR 760 nm.
Then, at 2.5 Femto-seconds per cycle, (1.0 / 400 x 10 to the 15.), that's:
   2.5 10(-15) X 1400 = 3.5 10(-12) ,
or 3.5 pico-seconds per wafer thickness.

Or, 350 pico-seconds for whole pass, plus 150 for loop recovery, so total is 500 pico-seconds, 10 (-12).
Around a circle shaped path, that's about 3/4 calculating element area and 1/4 is for the recovery and preparation.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #192 on: November 23, 2022, 04:39:15 am »
   Happy Holiday!
   Enormous challenge, primitive computational logic, and data transfer layout.  Dentist office chitchat, speculation,...we (self included) had NO CLUE what that's about, aside from visualizing some 'beams crossing'...
   But now, 'enough' engagement to at least be able to vocalize problem (areas) and flesh out some performance limits on the gross or non-quantum effects available.
Currently, examining 'partial rollover' or carry / borrow dynamic, on a 2-digit number, as that is key to effective 'blind' calculating.  (Never making intentional puns, here).  But first, a couple waveform glitches.

   The fast waveform RAMP generation has irregular timed outputs, doing 4 outputs and another 5th time slot without.  Fix for that is to run all the 500 picosecond 'code loops' with regular spaced outputs, instead of skipping.
But a bigger problem showing itself, (viewing slightly older diagram), the 'un-rolled' code loops (using 'j') are rolled out in SPACE,...not time; so you see the repetitions stretched out before you.  Now, with a closed calculation that just spits out one answer at the end, that will work, somehow.  But an analog waveform is a continuous (periodic) output process.
It's as it the 'observer' needs to ride along, at light speed, obtaining each answer on the 'breaking wave', of TIME...(no puns or drama, that's just what it is, today).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #193 on: November 23, 2022, 05:25:16 am »
Optical Illusion Teaser, at end, (see photo also).
   Putting out this summary, progress and problems so far.   THEN,...it will be Wednesday,
   PLANES, TRAINS and AUTOMOBILES.
Fun friends, and famulilly !

   The Dividing and multiplying, with various mixing of analog with digital formats, makes interesting tool set, but it was the 'DECREMENT' or integer counting that had surprising results, or partial realizations.
So, in cases of single digit, a multiply, (by 0.8 or by 0.85), serves as substitute for (blind) subtraction, as ratio to 56-1 vs 98-1 as 1 to 50 vs 1 to 100 change.
But a consistent multiply factor (applied blindly to a single digit, 0 thru 9, ) can be optimized for best 'curve' match.
   Using ratiometric (multiply by number between 00 and 99) has a 'residue' that persists, going smaller and smaller.  Another, similar option, uses similar looking operation, but ends up, discrete shifting, completely shifting all empty, due to the physical right shift, of the ten partitioned BUS defined lines.

   But the 'integer' subtraction method gets interesting; instead of usual, roll-over with higher digits that occurs once each ten times, the method, blindly without clue where/when rollover should precisely occur, routine will do, constantly, a '1/10th' rollover, and that is literally done by 'rolling' a one value, every repetition.  That way you still get 10 every 10 times you (decrement).
And while you must 'borrow' from the 'tens' column, a one, and then subtract that, it makes sense to 'JUST DO NOTHING', with low digit, and work on the rest of the task, which is to complete a subtract, of 'one' from the high digit, which represents '10' being moved over, in traditional paper-pencil subtraction protocol.
   The error, however, or mean random error, for a ratio related subtraction, is about in order of one of those (low digit) decrement (virtual decrement).
That's what I've termed an 'Eye for an Eye' type of one for one subtract, by decrement in turn, usually with a zero test for 'j= 0'.  Still not sure about that test, speed wise.
   An alternate way, if For-Next repetitions use a parameter that becomes ineffective, I.E. goes to zero (by discrete shifting), even while the 'loop' continues on, unchecked but also not doing harm...

   A mess, but have to admit; there is enough progress, to be presenting some real snags, areas of frustration (integer-like decrementing), and even an OPTICAL ILLUSION QUESTION:
(PLEASE SEE PHOTO, ENCLOSED).
   Why, when moving head, are those after-images tracked out, from the little light ?  At 232 khz those images, when eyeball 'flicks' around rapidly, those images aren't spaced right, for the speed they supposedly oscillate.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #194 on: November 24, 2022, 04:15:23 pm »
   The 2-digit format, in a SUBTRACT, or decrement, has some customized features, mainly that the high digit has special limits, (that can't be used in general case, of multiple digits, or floating point style.
So, wishing to avoid any underflow or borrow on case of a 'ones' digit rollover, an actual subtract is done essentially on the high digit,...that being another order of magnitude less than the actual 'tens' column digit.
The usual subtract 1 at once per 10 times is replaced by subtract 0.1 but every time.  That means every time the 2-digit number has to subtract 1.
   It can be confusing, doing this non-standard method, but it helps avoid an underflow situation, on the low digit.  It's all done 'blindly', not knowing which cycle of decrement has an actual low-digit rollover
(from 0 to 9).  The high-digit is only going to really roll-over (underflow borrow) at the very end, of the 2-digit count-down.
Readers can wonder, what about the 'phasing', of roll-overs, where the code running doesn't know, or even worse; actually 'knows' that 9 out of 10 decrements DON'T roll over, but that's O.K.  The subtraction is simply done in different place (high digit), and at ten times less value.  The low-digit, meanwhile, is left untouched...essentially adding a one, each time, as the partial move-over from tens digit, but also then immediately subtracting a one, as the desired function.
Result is just to ignore the low digit, as it is adding 1 and then subtracting 1.
Please also see photo diagram showing the high digit decrement method...in bigger picture meant as portion of a whole complete Word subtracting another Word, like 40-5 = 35 for example.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #195 on: November 24, 2022, 06:41:40 pm »
  Revisiting for a sec, the light guide conduits, or paths, (pls see diagram) the size of one gate or processing element compares nicely with some wavelengths used.
   Roughly 100 microns across, and approx twice that in run length, you can observe; each of the ten conduits is on order of 10 microns.  That compares with 760 nm wavelength at about 15 full wavelengths; hopefully that's enough to, barely, get up out of heavier quantum or diffraction effects, and more in just simple bulk light mode.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #196 on: November 25, 2022, 07:20:50 pm »
   O.K. Team,...Listen up:
   We need, (put on your 'M.I.G.A.' hats) we gonna need a re-integerize or re-quantize electronic / optical function.  Something to clear the residue or residual analog error, after a modest sweep doing some increments or decrements.  Right now, it's basically real numbers on each iteration (loop count).
   Arriving at loop 'bottom', after a modest number of decrements, (like 50 decrements of real number), the idea is to trim or clear the residual value, perhaps using a flash compare, rather than full AtoD.
   So a pseudo-integer, like " 41.13 " would be adjusted, to the correct integer form; " 41 ".
A digitally processed integer can be, conventionally, maintained forever, in continuously applied functions as the discrete nature allows for 'perfect' real world continuity.  For example, add + 4 followed by
subtract 4, repeating, is never going to 'drift'.
   So, analog / optical design Engineers; put on your
  'M.I.G.A.' hats; we need a set of terminus processors, very fast, to restore the loop integers, to prepare for another, fast, optical journey, down the 'code stack'.

-- Thanks for reading.
--Rick

 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #197 on: November 25, 2022, 08:16:25 pm »
Ah shit, forgot to say;
   M.I.G.A.  (hats) stands for
   'Make Integers Great Again'
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #198 on: November 25, 2022, 09:34:17 pm »
Maga Hats:

Make
Autonomous
Gyro-light Optical Digital switchers, Great
Again

 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #199 on: November 25, 2022, 10:20:06 pm »
   I like your hat better, mine is too obscure, for general consumption.

   How's about some more criticism, seriously, this thread needs some more reality checking.
From a project management standpoint, I never would have thought the theoretical development would make it THIS FAR, let alone the hurdles ahead.

   MORE criticism, pleaaze. Thanks
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #200 on: November 26, 2022, 12:13:38 am »
   I let a little time pass...couple seconds, while I obsess on little itty bitty decrements.  Wondering now, what about a 3 digit non-standard 'integer decrement'?
Then, it would be same pattern of approximate solution, always followed by and corrected by the 'Terminus', conventional fast electronic / optical hardware, at 'bottom' of run.
   To decrement, say ' 432 ', or actually more
 like ' 0.432 ', you would decrement the '2', followed by a 1/10 unconditional roll-over type 'borrow', creating an add or increment...so no action in the 'ones' column.
Plus now you'd like to avoid the rollover, of 'tens' column digit, ' 3 '.  Same deal.
The tens column gets a decrement, (or actually a 'virtual' decrement), followed, as with the ones digit, it's followed by a 'virtual' increment from the 1/10th partial (unconditional) roll-over borrow.
(Gosh, this technology is FUN!).

   Then, at last, it's time to pay the piper
(what ?? His 10 %?...gawd this language abuse is FUN!)
For the final, high digit it gets similar treatment, that being an equivalent approximation, to a decrement by
' 0.001 '.  That done by way of multiplication, by something similar to ' X 0.998 '.

   I've tried 'talking up' the ladies, in nearby BAR, when asked what I do.  (Refer to above text)
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #201 on: November 26, 2022, 12:31:13 am »
   To point out why the decrement is not trouble-free, let's try single digit decrement of ' 14 ', obviously out of range, but still a valid analog value, in the ones column.
   Try decrement ' 14 ' all in one column.  With single (discrete or digital type) multiply of ' X 0.8 ' you've obtained an answer value of ' 11.2 ' where the exact answer should be ' 13.0 '...a value too low by ' 1.8 ', or
a ∆ of ' - 1.8 '.
Correct value, for a ' 5 ' will be multiplied out
 as ' 5 X 0.8 ' = 4 which is exact.  So choice involves whether or not you can live with that substantial error, by letting the single digit get out of bounds...although still valid as a BUS signal.
   Using a wider multiplier, like ' 0.85 ' or even deeper, into ' X 0.998 ', or ' X 0.9997 ', can help the process achieve stated goals, but issue is more along the lines of practical extreme tactics, rather than some extra hassle doing the 4 digit X 3 digit multiplies in hybrid analog X digital forms.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #202 on: November 26, 2022, 05:58:55 pm »
   The problem with using multiply (by 0.8 for instance) is that it's only spot-on at one point, as when multiplying by the one digit ' 5 '.  That will give a clearly accurate ' 5 - 1 = 4.0 ', which is very integer-like.
But each of the count single digit numbers obviously will decrease, below ' 5 ' or will be too big above ' 5 '.
Would be nice, to create ranges, say using 2 ranges, high and low, each using a center, like ' 3 ' for the low range decrement, and the number ' 6 ', as the high range center. (Please see diagram).  As the distance to those 'centers' decreases, the counting down error, vs. true integer decrement becomes less.
   Perhaps, having another parallel parameter, running along with your target digit could track along as the numeral digit changes,...creating one range for each digit decrement, possibly further 'controlling' each process step error.
   Diagram showing; splitting into the two ranges for computing a 'pseudo integer' decrement, having low enough error that can be tolerated, through some longer chain (of further decrements).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #203 on: November 26, 2022, 06:37:29 pm »
  Now that last explanation is not entirely relevant, as the single digit by single digit multiply is not employed, but it serves to illustrate the issues about accuracy (of a traditional decrement).
Surprising that the results are not wildly inaccurate.  I would have thought that the ' X 0.8 ' multiplier would be expanded, in resolution, to something like ' X 0.85 ',
or ' 0.854 ' etc. when going to higher digit columns, ignoring the lower partitioned 2 columns, but it turns out the compromise multiplier jumps to something more close to ' 0.998 '.
   
   All of this may seem boring / useless,...until it isn't.
Many innovations started this way, although caution and reality seem pretty stacked (against).  Then, O.K. could just call the attempts an interesting / entertaining 'puzzler', like some gastly giant crossword puzzle.
   Getting a very high speed Floating Point package together would be very nice!  At least, now motivating to learn the inside details, around the use and formats of floating point, and (64 bit) 'double-precision'.
Idea is to get the low level routines, optically done, to get the messy digit by digit multiplies and integer decrements working, and the higher up layers WITHOUT these super cludges.
   One other thing to realize is majority of digit by digit multiplies have overflow, (like ' 3 X 4 = 12 ') and cannot 'skip' over the lower digits like the decrement has.
So THAT problem maybe looms; I'm more optimistic now, after all the fiasco around decrements, and the employment of clues and deduction, in that optical ALU design.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #204 on: November 26, 2022, 11:36:16 pm »
   Here is a pretty wild idea:. (seatbelt light is ON).
   In diagram, every multiply ' X 0.8 ' has that residue light amount, supposed to be a '1' as in recent discussion.  For building a digital BUS, separately right 'on the spot', each of 5 of these analog multiplies saves that way, each time a shift-in. So, after those 5 there is '4' or up to '4' and that's DIGITAL, now!
  Advantage is, each column that is clear (of any light), is completely clear, after having no actual conduits, blocked at first.  That way the last 4, assuming there are at least 5 'analog' conversions available...
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #205 on: November 29, 2022, 08:51:42 pm »
   It looks like I got lucky, in doing the format type, where there are 3 columns, each with column weighted sub-totals.  Ignoring decimal pt. for a second, you've got ' 4X 100's' + ' 2 X 10's ' + ' 5 X ones '. 
That separation allows for keeping things into bounds, although the analog BUS style does allow for, really, any analog weight or value.  But with keeping to limits you've reduced, tremendously, the 'guesswork' required to resolve and decrement from ' 10 ' max., Integer counts ' 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 ' that's about half the possible range, of starting point, for iteration count-down.
The 'worst' (I think) is attempting to 'decrement' a '1', as shown follows:
   Say, multiplier is X '0.6', compare that with previously described '0.8'.  So implementing attempt to decrement a '4' and also doing a constant offset added in first, result is:
   '(4+0.5) X 0.6 = 2.7' Should be '3', that's '∆ -0.3 ' error.
   '(1+0.5) X 0.6 = 0.9' Should be '0', or '∆ + 0.9' error.
   You can see, the 'last' decrement is problematic, and is needing to be a good, zero or close as possible.
(See diagram).
   The restriction of the '2' value digit shown as the middle or tens column digit means that there isn't some big, arbitrary value, '.000 thru .999 ', but rather it is limited to ten possible values, to guess at, assuming we'll behaved single digit.  Separating out the 3 digits that way allows for some fancy guesswork.
   Having the TWO ranges, each with associated method, allows for 'analog' decrements, by way of decimation or 'ratiometric decimation', on first range.
The second range can then take over, that being decrements from ' 5, to 4, to 3, 2, 1, 0' that being digital decrements, achieved thru shifting.  Shifting the partitioned analog word creates EXACTLY zero, not some little residue, like 0.004 after several diminishing functions, of ratiometric style.
   '
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #206 on: November 29, 2022, 09:15:35 pm »
   So, it's very hard to conceptualize, but each smaller portion is somewhat simple.  The main idea is to do reasonable integer-like decrements.
  Viewing the previous diagram, showing a 3-digit value, ' 425 ', readers can surmise; problem becomes separated into ranges, by digit power, but with more separating concepts, using two ranges within an unknown digit, so then, we have a closing in, on that (exact) integer value.  This, of course, is separate from any 'compiler' that tracks, implicitly,...know the exact loop count, representing that 'unrolled loop'.
   Looking at case-by-case, there are (now) only 10 cases, not some open-ended 'hundreds' of possible analog values.  For example, a number value like '493' will have some stranger multiplication value, (to simulate an integer decrement), to go to '492' vs. a reasonable ranged '0 thru 9', or '0 thru 10'.

   Reluctantly, I've supplemented the partitioned analog BUS format style, to include a '10' weight bit flag.  So, in total you've got 10 weight flag signals, plus another 'zero weight' flag, useful as a data transfer flag, for inclusion of zero state (in data transfers).
   A difficult situation is with a single '1' state coming into the number decrement apparatus.  With that, the decrement is performed with error, often figuring too high, like going from '1' down to 'zero', which, imperfectly will be a '0.6' result, or '∆= +0.6 ', too high.
Thus, that area of decrement function should be more heavily emphasized / prioritized.  When starting up higher, say starting at '9', it is guaranteed that the final 4 decrements, or so, will be purely integer.  At the least, that will help speed up and simplify any electronics utilized at the 'bottom' of code stack.
There are only '10,...(11 ??)' conditions or starting conditions to consider, while optimizing the whole set, with various compromises.  Remember, at first glance the system does not know what iteration count is present, for all the 'detective work' used to narrow down the range needing solutions.  Of course, all this complication, is only to be able to do a decent DECREMENT, of some single digit, within a string of weighted digits. (We don't know those values either!)
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #207 on: November 29, 2022, 09:34:33 pm »
   And so I've laid out some approach, with consideration for limiting factors, mainly being needing to do a run-thru table for the ten possible input values, to the start of the structure (remember, this is a mostly passive design, for speed.)
  Starting at '0, 1, or 2,...) you've got a fairly difficult / error prone range, to maybe prioritize, simultaneously tolerating larger errors, as get to '4 or 5', (starting value to count down).  Then, after '5' of those, the switchover to integer decrement, '5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, underflow), where the 'extra' light from ratiometric decrements can take over, as there is enough (light amplitude) to perform decrements by shifting right (digital).
The analog 'borrow', or underflow gets in the mix

   By the way, the electrical values I've been using, on the '000 thru 999' BUS format, is '0.1', for big digit '1',(column or  'macro-column').
The middle digit is value, (ten X less) '0.01', and smallest digit is analog value '0.001' for each count.
To create an actual physical value, those three weighted 'macro-columns' are simply added together, for the range outcome to be '0 thru 0.999 volts.  This of course is going to actually correspond to some number of lumens.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #208 on: November 29, 2022, 09:53:08 pm »
   Here is a diagram illustrating the BUS format supplemented by a '10' weight bit (flag) within that one macro-bus, for the middle of 3 decimal digits (tens).
Besides concatenating the '10' column it is needed to have a 'zero' weight, only for place to place data transfer purposes.
   The other 2 macro-columns have similar considerations, although the highest digit, 'hundreds' does not have underflow.  A bug exists (no one spotted it, lol),  that is where it is needed to propagate an underflow borrow, when you have a 3- digit value like:
   '031'... Need to be careful of improperly decrementing that high digit, for proper result without overflow on the highest of the three digits

Right now, I have to go offline, about 3 days, constructing tables and more tables.

- - thanks for considering analog !
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #209 on: November 29, 2022, 09:53:51 pm »
Dual formats
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #210 on: November 29, 2022, 11:36:13 pm »
   With a single digit, (within one macro-column), was thinking (incorrectly), going to need a load constant, of ' 9 ', as an isolated digit reload, or underflow borrow.
Some early format had each column at 'equal' weight, physically, ranging 0.0 thru 0.9 on each of the three, but this time they have true relation, being in form of
   '4 x 100', '3 x 10', '1 x 1'.
   But, needing a '9' 's worth of light amplitude, whenever a borrow happens, going '0 to 9', is what WOULD HAVE been called for...However, that value '10' brought over, cross to next (macro) column has been replaced, by the little, 1/10 carries, that happen unconditionally...that's the rules of the game.  Now as to whether, or not, that brings in small to moderate errors...things are so confused / confusing that it's best to start generating tables, via my simulator hardware, (OR, if someone want to volunteer, to crunch the data tables for us...?).
   It's possible, the unconditional 1/10th carry, a 'one' put (added thru merging) into current macro-column, is maybe too early,...adding something before an underflow even happens, resulting in a too-high result, temporarally.
That, actually when taken properly into account, might yeild some useful results, in the quest for taking a '1' downward close to underflow territory.  Of course, going from '0' down is, like I said, problematic, but that's only if a fully expressed underflow (like conventional) is needed.  It likely is not needed.
   It's like the book, they say, you have to read it, before you can (evaluate) what's in it.
Cheers.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #211 on: November 29, 2022, 11:55:40 pm »
   To explain, in more detail, the multiplying conversion, to take a '1' to a '0', won't ever work perfect; there always is some residue.  But also, we are stuck (I think) stuck with using whatever unconditional multiplier that was used on '1 to 0' decrementing by ratio, that being for the first half of decade, '5 down to 1'.  So, the compromise strategy is to find a good multiplier, but that only is accurate enough, to do those decrements.
There isn't a need to have a one size fits all approach, as the whole purpose is to create segmented ranges, each handled the 'best' way.
That means, real numbers '0,1,2,3,4,5' and integers
of '6,7,8,9,10', each to be decremented.  So, since the low range strategy can ignore the high range, that allows for more focus, just on the restricted range.
And note that this is BEFORE considering even more 'ranging', detective or criminologist style deduction, where possible.  One example could be that your high analog value digit, might not get up past '3' or something.  Then, your high digit routine might have some additional 'tweaks' that can be employed, seeing as upper ranges, like '654', or '855' will not happen, or will not be so bad, with a bit more error, in the decrement of real number.
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #212 on: November 30, 2022, 06:28:24 am »
   The process of 'pealing away' at the analog BUS involves using same width conduits, in this enclosed diagram.  (Sorry, kind of sloppy), the diagram features each 'pull away' conduit, (or sometimes open paths), that is part of the functional ratiometric decimation...that simply means that each pull-away takes off 20%.  If I had used the original method, multiplication, that would require varying the sizing, or conduit width, in an array to array butt together, where conduit walls don't match up.  You see, after the first 80% / 20% split, you would need, for the 2nd. split-off, you would need 10 conduits (again), then do the
80% / 20 % on those...or some other semblance to obtain the ratio for doing ratiometric multiply.
Then, again for the third split-off, again changing scales. (The diagram actually was a bit difficult and took a long time).
But the diagram serves to show how, you can split-off a 20% portion, relatively, and how, with some thought, that split-off can continue by keeping the same 20% relative, this time, relative to the 'top' or signal entry point.  That is because there is an implicit lowering of 'standard' levels, as you trace paths down thru system.
(Of course in this diagram the signals literally flow conventionally, left to right.)
But here, by keeping to the first 'standard' level, the other 3 channels take care of relative amplitudes by splitting off the way it does; that is with EQUAL sizing from the source, by way of using 2 conduits each, for an equal outcome in each split.
It may seem wrong, as there are only 5 signals, but that is a consequence of needing 20% each time, (for the original ratio of X .8 times the total.). The signals turn out to each being 20% but the ratio varies.  Instead, the signals are all relative to the original arriving signal, rather than just an ongoing applied ratio.  In that case, each signal would be a smaller copy, and the conduit walls / widths would change after every split-off.
   Please see diagram, the first BUS conduit split-off is shown, circled, where the packet of light gets moved over, tucked into the first active position (#1), on a new digital BUS being built up.
By doing 5 of these that way, you've then obtained a digital word having 5 states for (later) shift type count-down, classic rightward digital 'bit' shifts.
Seems kind of simple.  What's not intuitive is how that turns out;  that 'only' 5 'ones' are split-off, not ten.  That's really only a consequence of everything relating to the original signal level point (in space, actually), rather than an ongoing 'standard 100%' that changes or gets reduced downstream.
This scheme basically 'sucks' the light quantities off the incoming (analog) BUS, and creating a fresh new DIGITAL copy, of the proper count.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #213 on: November 30, 2022, 06:43:26 am »
   So then, somewhere in the middle of doing the 10 analog computations, (the multiply by X 0.8 ) it is possible to drop the less accurate analog pseudo-decrement, and resume count-down in digital form.  That means, of course, the unit weighted digital BUS rather than binary weighted encoding.
Still need to work out the mode switch-over place, probably at number '5', (or near).

   Actually, this variation, of BUS number decrement, is likely replaced by the more esoteric '3 digit' at once method, of decrement, described a while back, and involving the whole '1/10th underflow' continuous.
Starting this just as a (trivial) bit of work not strictly called for, but to obtain info on overall accuracy.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #214 on: November 30, 2022, 11:27:15 pm »
   Picture showing; The number crunching isn't really bad, but I've had to resort to some amount of floundering,...to get my bearings on that analog and digital 'decrement' (psuedo).
   The digital 'ones' are at count values 10 or above, to have some decent amplitude, for the 'terminus' electronics to read.  Using the counts, of '000 thru 999' or actually thru '0.999', each peel-away needs to contain a digital '1' level that is enough, right now I've started using '010' for each digital bit flag, so a count-down, of numeral '5' involves total of '5 X 10' that will get moved over, into the count-down shifter.  Working backwards from there, it is needed to have '50' as the ending point, for becoming the new WORD for controlling '5' decrements.  That is variable 'j', in the unrolled loop that I've been describing.
   Now, working backwards, into the analog decrement, by way of usual ratiometric multiply, I've figured those first 5 psuedo-decrements do ten (counts) each, of reduction split-off, generally in a range close to 10 counts each (counts being a substitute for analog light amplitude).

   Works out pretty well, as the goal is to work the numbers forward in the process, during the 'loop' downward code stack.  In other words, each step will grab 20 % 'residue 'or as close as can get, and leave the 80% main value to continue down the list.
   That 20% approx. is a bit sloppy, moving down from '20' counts on the first save, to '16', to 12, 10.2, and lastly '8.2' (on the low side).  Figuring 10.0 is close....but lacking explanation.  Some random impulsive changes got things this way...a partially satisfying match...
For a digital threshold, similar to the TTL spec, suggested digital threshold is at '7' counts, with 10 being enough guarantee.

   Weird part was the numerical adjustments to get results.  Number multipliers were '0.8', '0.85', '0.98', and '0.998', with results being the proper amounts in the take-off residue and the numeral amount being in the flow so to speak.  Generally you multiply, to get the ratiometric reduction or decrement, and then, for an example like 'X 0.85', you do a 'X 0.15' as the remainder or 'residue' light.  That's on paper, simulating the numbers as light travels down the 'code stack'.

   For example, I've determined, by working backwards, as mentioned above, that '100' counts of intensity or amplitude are needed to supply the 5 'withdrawals' of ten each, and the count of 50 that is present at the start (of ratiometric decrements).
   Photo shows, using multiplier of '0.8' gets a fairly good compromise, having enough amplitude for each bit flag in the new digital WORD being created.  If take off too much, then errors creep in, and if take off too little, there isn't enough 'light' quantity to do the digital WORD buildup for having '5' digital shifts to do later.

   It seems like a '0.8' multiplier gives good results, for single digits (for doing decrement approximation).
When doing '2' significant digits, you might prefer multiplier like '0.98:, and, it seems, for 3 significant digits, you'd want to use '0.998' as a multiplier.

   All this gets to feeling a bit 'lost' in this attempted adjustment, for least amount of error, simulating a single digit decrement.  But the '0.8' multiplier works pretty good, taking off or splitting off a bit too much amplitude, so that then, the feed over, to new digital WORD will not be 'enough', to supply a valid digital 'ones' level, of 10 or more counts to each new bit flag position.
Those bit flags, by the way, hopefully, can simplify any electronics used, digitally, for translation to usual electronics / computer output.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #215 on: November 30, 2022, 11:32:20 pm »
   Here, an aside, I've included a back yard garden light assembly, this first picture has a seven sided arrangement.  That middle yard light has a role in regulating the bunch, as it's light will prevent the main assembly from illuminating, until the regulating unit expired (batteries discharged).  The light from the regulator shines on each of the lower 7 little garden lights.
   Fun and lots of scotch tape.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #216 on: December 01, 2022, 12:37:55 am »
   This next picture shows a six sided version, where all the yard / garden solar lights are arranged in a six sided wheel, with another outside perimeter of 12 little solar lamps.
   Logically, each lamp performs as an inverter, shutting off when a flashlight shines on the solar lamp, with a switching circuit (that includes a buck DC converter, for the single AA rechargeable battery.
   With a bunch of single lamps, each will go dark, when receiving light, but when there's two, one shining on the next,...; You get a sweep of lamps going dark, briefly, as a flashlight sweeps over.
   That effect helped launch my 'new career', designing Hillbilly SuperComputers.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #217 on: December 01, 2022, 12:44:27 am »
   Third picture, has another six pack sitting up top, that tends to suppress the lower level yard lights, as the six sit up on top.  Flashing or sweeping a flashlight can be causing very brief 'flashes' or impulses, as the occasional series acting Gates produce.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #218 on: December 01, 2022, 01:35:32 am »
I don't know, if you are interested in this.  But it reminds me, of your ongoing computer project ideas and work.

The following video, seems to show that they recently made a new computer (type), out of actual DNA.  It has been constructed to play naughts and crosses (tic-tac-toe).  There are flashes of light (sort of), to indicate the desired moves.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 01:38:12 am by MK14 »
 
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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #219 on: December 01, 2022, 01:43:06 am »
   The diagram, enclosed, shows, graphically, a region of response, for those flashlight sweeps across (please see the 2 trails, red colored.)
   When sweeping a flashlight, across the assembly, you could move to the edge, with the torch, so your 'pulses' of light response get very short...which is interesting, kind of.  In some past experiments, I had realized that several classic, conventional circuits can be modeled, by the light gates.

   With a random assemblage, of say 20 yard light gates, you can have various flip-flop actions, where led stays on, after one of those flashlight sweeps.  Makes sense as any two inverters can, potentially connect via light paths.  Course, it's mechanically awkward, some, as those garden light packages don't really 'like' to point the led and responsive photocell, at some places...(like pointing at self,...that seems to cause a dim lockup, of a garden device...analog feedback of various sorts via the input sensing photocell.

   What's really interesting, and from a standpoint of Neurological science studies, is that an 'edge detect' function can happen, in that 'random' collection of solar cell 'gates'.  Been covered before, here.

   When a person 'plays',...keep an open mind as there are effects sometimes that have interesting angles.
Backyard art, but with a geometric bent, plus Neurology...wow, nice!
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #220 on: December 01, 2022, 10:05:44 am »
   Yeah, thanks, MK15, it's the creative process that I'm pumping here, meaning doing those things necessary to foster some novel creation.

   "Very fluid", I'm thinking, watching the video (a couple posts back),  with using DNA to implement / indicate rules of play.  That Steve Mould yt channel also featured a video on water computing (binary gates).
And don't forget, as a semi-employed 'architech', these novel things are gratifying...his and mine.
   If only I could spell.  (I hear it is illegal, to 'claim', falsely, to be an architect...heh heh).
I've tried to do some very loose,  wild-ass gleam in the eye shit...being a former 1970's hippie.  That cultural blip was known for some really creative 'output'.

   Tried 'sliding' the bit formats, tried reading Nuerology texts (for dummies)...  The human audio processing is a marvel, as it truly LACKs any decent speed (> 1 mSec).
   Tried using 'digital' conventional frame, but placed analog values in those boxes (fascinating!).  A big part of the creative environment is knowing yourself, and limits.  For me, better have that notebook near...anything that seems promising (logic gates) needs a quick jot-down, or it's lost in the 'Lyme' brain fog.  Huh ? Whaa ?

   Anyway, thanks for feeding in some ideas, I really would recommend Steve Mould's water computer discussion.  Another basic part, of creativity, in my view, is a real fast and loose approach, but a person needs to, same time, monitor and restrict that flow, some times.  For instance, I've deliberately steered clear of 'Quantum' effects (to harness), but you've got to be 'nimble', if time comes to engage those Pop-fiction, fancy wordy 'entanglement' type phrases.

   My quantized 'signal processor', right now... Is a FLASHLIGHT,  2 rubber bands,  and a bunch (80+) of Solar Yard Lights.  And yes, I bought a whole FLAT, of those little lights, at $ 1.25 each.

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 06:08:08 pm by RJHayward »
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #221 on: December 01, 2022, 10:19:31 am »
   Oh, and on that subject, of fostering creativity,  don't forget the arts, and music world.  Those folks often don't get the higher tech salaries,  but struggle on never less.  Many artists have had to flee, to some modern media involvement, for popular appeal.
   Ever Google 'Biography of ....'?
I found a great autobiography, guitarist BB King wrote;
   'Blues Everywhere'.    (1996).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #222 on: December 01, 2022, 10:41:44 am »
   Here is a simulated view of one of those OPTICAL BUS combiners, with a human hair laid across.

   It would be a low-power microscope setting, scaled some 100 microns across the whole picture, with hair at maybe 30 microns.
   That's 100 microns is 1/10th millimeter.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #223 on: December 01, 2022, 07:33:06 pm »
   Thinking about accumulated errors, going through a small (<11) set of decrements.  I need a math / error estimating person.  (Maybe a statistics expert).
   The decimal system has a max value of  '9', so you could say the 'expansion factor', going from '1' to '9', or to '10' is factor of 'X9' or ten.  That might contribute to the minimum error, in some chained multiply, such as what happens in this 'psuedo' decrement approach.
Then, maybe consider binary, base two, where there isn't even another numeral 'weight';
   Problem there is that any multiply that is substituting for a true integer decrement has an unsatisfactory performance, in the attempt to convert a (real number) of '1' down to '0', or at least very very low result.

   Let's look at three ranges and number BASE's;
   Suppose we run the numbers, on 'BASE 10', (decimal), on 'BASE8' (octal), and on 'BASE 12'.
That's all in the continued context here, of finding the best (compromise) multiplier, across the full range, of a single digit.
   With binary, a 'guess' that any digit is going to be a '1' as a real number is obvious, so you would either do the ratiometric multiply, of 'factor' X '1', being done, or you would actually START with a '0', so any compromise is moot, as you could, actually, multiply any '1' value by any extremely low value, like X '0.1' or X '0.01' etc, just to simulate a conventional decrement.
   Now, that last line is shown as decimals '1/10' and decimal '1/100th' but I meant the equivalent concept in binary (fractions).
   Obviously, you would have include all of the 'partial' underflow mechanisms (already discussed), in order to properly handle any decrement of '0'.  But point is, that you could (attempt) to implement that hairy strategy...

   So there, the question would be if using binary, multiple digits, with all the unusual DECIMAL oriented mechanisms, translated for being able to 'subtract' with appropriate light beam amounts brought over from higher columns.
   
   THEN, I should also do the same process, for octal and for 'BASE' or 'radix' '12, for comparison.
By way of some sort of principal, there HAS to be one of those four, that is with least error, while moving down a chain of decrementing.
    Looking at 'BASE 12' this way, your maximum value is '11X' the minimum ('1').  So each evaluation seeks to produce an error map.  I considered binary because there is NO max,...just a '1', so you could concentrate all your efforts on multiplying that way way down.
That falls apart, though (I think), as not sure if can then 'decrement a 'zero', with all the borrow/underflow mechanisms considered...I mean, why not just BLOCK the whole BUS, then...That will give a 'zero', but leaves the '0 down to 1' underflow.
   'Seat Belt Light is...ON FIRE...'

(Maybe use BASE 3 ??)   Heh Heh.
   Actually, maybe sounding flippant, but that's just the presentation.  The real goal, right now, is to evaluate whether a format switch up to 'base12' or down to 'base 8', will affect the cumulative error(s), when performing multiple (psuedo) decrements.
   Can't believe each (base or radix) has same errors...
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #224 on: December 01, 2022, 07:43:44 pm »
   Or part of what 'I think' I'm saying, is that the decrement of a '1' is the most problematic, as any decent ratiometric operation does not result in zero.
So...going to BINARY, digit by digit, you can maybe simulate a decrement that doesn't have the ratiometric limitation, because there is no other digits, to compromise with, against a multiply times a 'ones' value.  That's attractive, as lacking the need to compromise for other values, above '1'.
But, that means that you could just BLOCK the whole, friggin BUS, to get that 'one' down to a zero...I don't like that, as still need the underflow borrow strategy, for bring a decremented value to 'wrap around', like '0 wraps to a 1', counter-style, like the Ole' 7400 series counters do.
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #225 on: December 02, 2022, 04:56:28 pm »
   Some errors to correct, in the approach to decrements:

   (Please see diagram).  That method of partial underflow borrows is cute...but problem is that it brings all the work over, to the high digit, of the 3 digits.
Kind of like passing the buck, ending up with same issues as started, where the separate digits would be isolated from each other, creating smaller ranges, thus smaller errors with ratio derived 'decrements'.

   The green highlighted column shows where the terminus electronics, taking over the end of the BUS lines, would have to interpret that '2.20' and put the partial fractions back where they belong.  That would take up time.
   The yellow highlighted digits, in this version (shown) do that thing of 'virtual add 1' with, also, 'virtual subtract 1'...a bit ridiculous sounding.

Other faults exist, will post notes on a couple points.
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #226 on: December 02, 2022, 05:01:13 pm »
And, OOPS;
   Meant to format that picture as a decrement, of '1' not a full subtract.  But point is, I needed to keep an underflow mechanism, for the two lower digits.
Likely will be forced to use 'partials' still, because of the whole unknown quality or 'blind' calculation(s).
 

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #227 on: December 02, 2022, 06:05:41 pm »
   So...running through the outline of method, you would do a single digit decrement, on the lowest digit, but with a mechinism to build or re-create the '9' as a whole BUS full of (9) ones...The next higher digit can supply this...but conventional pencil and paper subtract on multiple digits needs to provide that borrow action only one in every ten pases, as normal integer decrements.
   So, it's a phase alignment problem...but the partial, unconditional borrows, of value '1' each, should be evaluated, as the errors may be tolerable, in the bigger picture, of a three digit decrement scheme.

   Consider this;. You've started with a '7', on the lowest digit, perform a ratio based reduction, by
   '(7 X 0.8)' which is '= 5.6' supposed to be '6'.
  Uh, that was supposed to show the '.8', not emoji...
 Then, assuming unconditional borrow, there, even if it's not properly 'phased' with a real rollover, '0 to 9'.
So the error there is figured by adding the borrow, that was obtained from the next, higher, digit.  Of course this is wrong, in the immediate view, but the error never less will be to take that '5.6' and plus the lateral borrow coming over, will then be '6.6'.
   That is, if the borrow is perfect...(I'll get to that in a second).  So, now your integer decrement is higher than the target '6.0'.  The delta (∆) or error delta is going to be ' ∆ = -0.4 '.
   That implies that your next psuedo decrement will operate on '6.6', instead of a pure integer '6.0'.  So part of the bigger question is, how many of these operations are chained together.  It's a road worth traveling, as (I) have little objections to exploring avenues that 'smell' a bit bad, if it's not gonna kill me.

   I don't have, yet, complete evaluation, but if you consider a single digit in there; a '2', that will go through only three decrement processes, to get to underflow, ' 0 to 9 '.  You would have ' 2 to 1'...giving an actual result of ' 2 X 0.8',  plus '1/10' of borrow (~1), for a result of '2.6'. Supposed to be a '1.0'.
   Next, would be '2.6 X 0.8' plus '1/10th' of borrow (~1), for result '2.18', that's supposed to be '0'.
For a third time, '2.18 X 0.8' plus '1/10th borrow' (~1),
or a decrement result of '1.744', where then it sits, in the optical BUS macro-column.  That isn't a 'proper' underflow, needing actual to be rollover to a '9', but that's where the scheme relies on electronic interpretation, so I'm only annoyed...not devastated yet.

   Another example, up higher in the single digit chain, like an iteration count of '7'...(Let's take a look);

   Skipping the bulk of calculation, that comes out to
   'result of 7 - 3 = 6.02', supposed to be '4.0'.

This process needs adjustment, obviously, but remember the conventional carry or actually 'borrow' is traditionally an integer '10', so being out of phase, in application of that larger size creates an error more prone to something like:
   Say, worst case, a '9',  that would have;
   '9 + 10 lateral borrow', or result of '19'.
The outcome there would have been '17.2', as a result of adding a worst-case lateral borrow of '10'.
True result, of course, of '0 - 1' should be '9'.
So, for a start, that scheme, of doing unconditional partials (of borrow at 1), shows some promise, over a fully blind adding of ten, every ten times.
   You just don't know where that lands, phase-wise.

More imperfections / solutions coming up...

( SEAT BELT LIGHT IS...OFF ).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 06:07:43 pm by RJHayward »
 

Offline RJSVTopic starter

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Re: Optical Bench REDUX: Digital Switching can have Analog Functions!
« Reply #228 on: December 02, 2022, 07:44:18 pm »
   So to be clear,  the partial, '1/10th borrows' are still used, as light for generating new signal(s), to add to the macro-column (ones digit).
   For the actual decrement procedure, that's kept in a 'box', constraining the limits, that being '0 thru 9', maximum '9'.  Those fancy partial carries (borrows), operate on a bigger range, of course being two digits, or laterally across the multiple digits.  The real, whole digit 'borrow' thing extends, so you'd want a '1/100th' borrow, taken from highest digit...every pass thru a comprehensive decrement structure.
   That is because your second digit, in the middle, is also in same situation as the lowest digit.  Might turn out advantageous, to do the multi-digit subtraction (of '1'), backwards, in high to low order.
I'm ready...that's easy when there is no conditional actions in the routine.
   In the 'CODE STACK', implementation is not complex, or bulky...it's the MATH explanation(s) that take up 'bulk'.  They usually don't 'FLY' the engineering dept., In any new airplane...too much bulk and weight.

Math correction diagram enclosed, thanks.
-- Rick-Jack
 

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