Tesla Recall

[rgarito]

This one is strange...

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf

Wow...

"Part of this 8GB storage capacity is used each time the vehicle is started. The eMMC NAND cell hardware fails
when the storage capacity is reached, resulting in failure of the MCU. "

Apparently they are wearing out the flash:

"the eMMC NAND cell hardware will fail
when reaching lifetime wear, for which the eMMC controller has no available memory blocks
necessary to recover. With this failure mode, the only recovery available is a replacement of the
eMMC device, achieved by physical part replacement of either the MCU assembly or visual
control module subcomponent"

"At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only 5-6 years. Historically, the
expected life of a vehicle generally far exceeds 5-6 years of service"


Talk about planned obsolesence...

[Berni]

I hope they are referring to the issue that the eventual self bricking infotainment system that Tesla had a problem with way way back. If this is a separate issue then Tesla learned nothing from there previous blunders.

The first occurrence of a flash problem i heard of had to do with the Linux image on the infotainment system being configured to pump kernel logs to a a filesystem on the main flash chip. This kernel log is constantly spitting out a few lines per second and all this got constantly written to flash. Eventually the flash memory wore out its blocks and ran out of spares, going belly up. So upon the next reboot there is no intact linux image to boot from and so the whole infotainment system would just sit there with a black screen.

Since this would take some years it would end up being a out of warranty repair where Tesla replaces the infotainment unit with a newer one without this issue, and this costs a lot. So one smart guy figured out why they die and fixed the firmware. So for a much lower price of repair he swaps out the flash chip for a new one and flashes in firmware that was hacked to have this problem solved.

Since the big ass touchscreen infotainment system basically controls everything in the car the thing becomes almost a paperweight without it.

[thinkfat]

This DOT letter is about this very issue. They figured now it's a safety issue and are effectively ordering Tesla to "do something substantial" about it, arguing that past software updates only mitigate the issue but not guarantee driver safety. That's pretty serious, because as they now consider the infotainment system being part of the driver safety domain, it is subject to certification. They consider e.g. a rearview camera and window defogging being safety relevant and thus they must not fail, and system design must ensure this and a paper trail must exist as proof. A Tegra 3 running some homegrown Linux system cannot be made compliant, that's entirely out of the question. 

I'm curious how Tesla will respond, because, this might require them to recall the affected vehicles and provide an entirely redesigned infotainment system. That may take years and millions of dollars.

EDIT: or maybe not. It might be enough to make sure that the vehicle doesn't start if this happens, or displays an appropriate warning message if it happens during driving.

[Dr. Frank]

The worldwide Automotive Industry, namely the Tier 2, Tier 1 and OEMs, they have very high standards concerning reliability, safety and defects liability, either being safety or simply functionally relevant.
All HW and SW components are designed, manufactured, verified and validated (tested) to the commonly accepted Automotive industry standards to secure that all components and systems are safe and operate w/o defects over the whole span of the cars life, i.e. at least 10 years, for some OEMs even up to 20 years.

The relevant documents for this philosophy (on components) can be found here: http://www.aecouncil.com/AECDocuments.html

'Wear and Tear parts' like the brake are obviously not included, but an eMMC, in interaction with its SW driver and the whole SW application, is of course not regarded as such a wear and tear component. See especially the AEC - Q100-005 - REV-D1

An official recall by the Traffic Safety Administrations (in U.S. or elsewhere) is done only on safety issues.
Anyhow, a long-established OEM will also recall cars with systematic functional defects, even after many years, as the Tier 1 will have to defray the cost of such a recall.

This statement, taken from CNBC:

Tesla vice president of legal Al Prescott:
“Tesla recognizes that even when a component is not designed to last the life of the vehicle, a defect may still be found if it wears prematurely. However, that is not the case here”

“NHTSA’s anachronistic regulations are unfit for situations where there is no safety defect, but nevertheless the manufacturer immediately can improve vehicle performance, including safety performance, without the cumbersome need for physical repair.”

unveils, that TESLA is not a regular Automotive grade car maker.

Their company philosophy seems to be to produce Consumer grade cars only, as Mr. Prescott evidently admits, that the used component(s) won't last the whole cars life.
I see this very critical, as such an attitude probably affects also the complete design and manufacturing processes.

This TESLA representative obviously also neglects all commonly agreed Automotive safety standards.

Technically speaking: Even optical and acoustic indicators like a simple LED, an LCD icon, or a buzzer / speaker is by convention regarded as safety relevant, as they reflect the status of other safety relevant components or functions. This circumstance is also clearly pointed out by the National Highway Traffic Administration.

This story for me is simply disillusioning, as TESLA is hyped in many publications as THE new innovative car maker, being superior to all the established OEMs.

Nope, they still have to learn about and improve in the real Automotive business.

Frank

[Halcyon]

Tesla doesn't impress me, what is so innovative about their cars?

Their battery technology is the same as other vehicles (and it's not even 'their' technology).
Their fit and finish is meh including reports of bad paintwork (no competition compared to actual premium vehicles).
They have faced a number of serious recalls already with the latest being this eMMC issue and power steering failures.
They use a proprietary charging system unless you fork out extra money for an adapter.
Their reliability in the long term is yet to be proven.
Significant lack of after-sales dealer support.
Expensive to buy. Expensive to repair/replace components (out of warranty).
Random reboots/software crashes.
Far better alternatives exist from actual proper car companies.

[PlainName]

what is so innovative about their cars?

You could actually buy them and drive them. They are common as muck now.

Far better alternatives exist from actual proper car companies.

Now that Tesla has paved the way, the bandwagon is gaining passengers, yes.

[Berni]

Tesla was the one that popularized electric cars as actually being cool and worked towards some of the issues of electric cars(like fast charge).

Electric cars used to have an even worse stigma than the Toyota Prius. All the electric cars out there tended to be slow and uglier than even most European eco boxes. The whole thing made even worse as the manufacturers seamed to want there electric cars to stand out as being electric by giving them weird scifi styling that was poorly executed, making them exceptionally ugly. So nobody wanted an electric car.

Then Tesla came along and started making electric cars that actually look fairly good (Apart from maybe the weird fish faced model 3) and gave them the performance to actually be faster than most gasoline powered cars out there. They also stuck in lots of fancy electronic gadgetry to seam like its a more advanced futuristic car. So suddenly people found it cool to drive a one. So these days the major car manufacturers went "Oooh so people want a normal looking car that is electric and goes fast, okay stop making the little electric scifi eco boxes for now"

That being said Tesla is still a bit new to the whole car making business and they don't quite know what they are doing, combined with this being an american made car (they are not exactly known for quality in general) combined with there confident attitude that they can do stuff better than others, treating a car as serviceable as a laptop etc.. So yeah i wouldn't buy a Tesla even if it cost the same as the used gas powered cars i drive.

Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.

[PlainName]

Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.

Yes, it struck me that Musk did for electric cars what Jobs did for mobile phones. Nothing new as such but, boy, did it make a difference.

[tautech]

 
What's dodgy about a recall FFS ?

This thread would be better served in another board:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/

OP, use the Move Topic feature and drop this thread where it might be better suited.

[thinkfat]

There's nothing dodgy about a recall, but this isn't the topic here.

[gnuarm]

Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.

Yes, it struck me that Musk did for electric cars what Jobs did for mobile phones. Nothing new as such but, boy, did it make a difference.

I was reading the posts in this thread and I realized I had to respond to this one! 

The cell phone analogy is accurate in more ways than one.  Driving a Tesla with the touch screen interface and the many, many quirks, annoyances and just plain malfunctions is not even slightly different from what you would expect if your cell phone had wheels.  That's what my car is, a cell phone with wheels... oh, and without a cell phone.  The car is data connected over the cell network, but if you need to make an emergency contact, you had better paid your cell phone bill. 

I have to say the car is the greatest vehicle I've ever driven and the worst car I've ever driven.  I've never been able to drive the car even once without having to fight the thing for control of something.  If it isn't fighting me when I try to open the door, it's refusing to go into drive until it decides it is ready.  If it isn't breaking for literally no apparent reason (while on auto pilot) it is sounding an alarm for something it doesn't bother to explain.  It cancels auto pilot mode thinking my hands aren't on the wheel when I'm trying to ignore the nag because I'm watching the intersection in front of me while something odd is happening.  It runs the battery down to zero when I'm grocery shopping for an hour.  Let's not forget that Tesla thinks the big screen in the middle of the dash turning orange after a year or two is a "cosmetic" defect and so not covered by warranty.  The list of "issues" with the car is long indeed.

On the other hand, it is nice to not have to focus so attentively on the road ahead in auto pilot.  It is nice to be able to charge at home and not visit a gas station every week or two.  It's nice to not have to hear an engine starting every time you get in. 

Probably the worst part of owning a Tesla is the service.  I've had my car into the Tesla dealer nearly a dozen times.  There are numerous problems they won't even investigate because they are intermittent... just like the parts of the car that work intermittently.  The service department just punts them away.  It took over a year and a second service center before the rear door sensor was replaced.  Now the same symptom is back, just not as often. 

Teslas are fun, but can be very frustrating cars... but compared to my cell phone, par for the course.

[Syntax Error]

Imagine, when all Tesla cars are self driving, a 'recall' could be implemented with the vehicles all driving themselves back to the dealership. Unless there is a defect in the self driving system and they 'go zombie', all driving backwards at speed into the same fire hydrant - which their AI learned to recognize from a Google captcha. Would make an interesting movie... Total Tesla Recall - zombie selfdrive apocalypse.

[joseph nicholas]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

[Neilm]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

Because it makes the car lighter and gives more internal storage space. I have to say in over 25 years of driving I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have had a flat tyre.

[floobydust]

I wonder if Tesla needed RAM and moved variables into FLASH? And the push to a MCU2 upgrade? 
It reminds me of Apple products always having cheap minimal memory and after a few OS updates the product is obsolete due to increased memory usage.
"...Tesla texted me options...new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)..." 
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/174248/turn-signal-function-loss

PS. - Old Toyotas had a full size spare, so 5 tires and with rotation you got extra lifetime, it was worth it.

[thinkfat]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

Because it makes the car lighter and gives more internal storage space. I have to say in over 25 years of driving I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have had a flat tyre.

Well yes, same here, but the thing is, just like with health insurance or seat belts, if you don't have them when you need them, it gets pretty inconvenient quickly. We had a flat tyre two years ago when returning from a family holiday, car stuffed under the roof with kids, kit and kaboodle, on the Autobahn. Took us almost half a day to find a shop who had a tyre of the correct size, speed and load class in stock, to get there and have it mounted. At the end of the day everyone was super exhausted, kids crying over the long journey, wife grumpy on the rear seat between them, not a pleasant experience for everyone. With a spare, story would have been over in two hours tops.

[tszaboo]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

IDK, My Toyota just came with an emergency repair kit. If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work? Or it has enough air in it?

"the eMMC NAND cell hardware will fail
when reaching lifetime wear, for which the eMMC controller has no available memory blocks
necessary to recover. With this failure mode, the only recovery available is a replacement of the
eMMC device, achieved by physical part replacement of either the MCU assembly or visual
control module subcomponent"

Compare this with (of all manufacturers) VW was holding back the ID3 launch until they fixed all the software bugs.
We are at the point, that the people of the church of tesla will cheer even for a recall.

new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)...

Pff, lol. Memory full, insert money.
I remember seeing someone complaining that replacing the front door on his Model S cost him more than buying a new hatchback.
And there is no way to repair it anywhere else, because in the factory, they decided to weld aluminium together, and nobody has equipment for it.

[joseph nicholas]

I had a blow out getting onto the Cross Island Parkway form the Grand Central.  Absolutely not way to pull off the road until you get to the marina parking half a mile down the road in my Porsche 997.  First I needed a tow which would only get me to an exit.  Had to come back another day to get a tow from another company to a garage to purchase a new tire.  In total it cost 500 because I picked up a nail but the tire got shredded while driving to the marina parking.  This has cured me from driving without a spare and jack to make a change. 

[gnuarm]

I wonder if Tesla needed RAM and moved variables into FLASH? And the push to a MCU2 upgrade? 
It reminds me of Apple products always having cheap minimal memory and after a few OS updates the product is obsolete due to increased memory usage.
"...Tesla texted me options...new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)..." 
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/174248/turn-signal-function-loss

PS. - Old Toyotas had a full size spare, so 5 tires and with rotation you got extra lifetime, it was worth it.

In my Tesla, it isn't just the size of the tire, there's also the jack capable of lifting 3 tons... yes, 3 tons!  My car empty weighs 5,600 lbs. or something around 2,500 kg.   Then there's the tire iron.  The last time I tried to remove a wheel from a car I needed one of the X shaped tire irons as the lug nuts were on far too tight to remove with the J shaped wrench. 

No, my tire changing days are over.  AAA is worth the money for sure.

[PlainName]

If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

[Monkeh]

If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.

[tautech]

If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.

'Tis in NZ.

[Monkeh]

If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.

'Tis in NZ.

Right, but that's a WoF. And apparently you still use stickers, which is kinda cute.

E: And having reviewed the WoF manual.. nope. Only checks that it's secure if present. You're failed for having a space-saver fitted though.

[Ed.Kloonk]

If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.

'Tis in NZ.

Should be checked here but often isn't. Last time my bloke asked to check it, I popped the hatch and said it's under all that shit there, mate.

Nobody knows what condition it's in.

[bdunham7]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

[Ed.Kloonk]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

Well, effectively the car will last 5-6 years. Ashtray should be full by then anyway.

[Monkeh]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

I just bought a six year old car last year and I have no expectation of any non-mechanical failures beyond random chance and lamps. Tesla clearly think they operate in a different universe.

[Syntax Error]

Tesla clearly think they operate in a different universe.

It's Elon Musk. They do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk%27s_Tesla_Roadster

[Berni]

This part of the article is particularly 

Prescott went on to argue that it would be unreasonable for federal regulators to expect electronic parts to function properly for the entire lifetime of a vehicle, given that "electronic components are becoming increasingly more complex while, at the same time, the expected useful life of vehicles has grown substantially.

"It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle's entire useful life," Prescott said.

My cheap $400 laptop has a longer lifespan than 5-6 years...

Technologically infeasible? They can figure out how to get a rocket to mars yet they can't figure out that using quality SLC flash memory and not write to it could make there infotainment system last past 25 years. So yeah its just a made up Apple like excuse of "Its not broken, you are using it wrong"

But yeah infotainment systems in general are becoming such an integral part of cars, if they break you got a paperweight.

My Volvo from 2014 appears to be using a spinning rust harddrive in the infotainment system because you can hear hard drive head seeking sounds when the infotainment system is loading things. I'm sure they gave it "rubber baby buggy bumpers" as Dave would say but still i am a a bit worried what happens when this hard drive eventually dies. The firmware is probably in flash memory since the boot screen comes up instantly. I think its keeping the satnav maps and the mp3 music (that you can copy onto internal memory from USB). So hopefully you just loose access to those features when the spinning rust grinds to a halt. If the whole infotainment goes belly up then i also loose radio, bluetooth, AC, heated seats, window defrosters, parking sensors... etc and access to all the car settings(of which there are many). It does also have a digital dash that appears to be a separate system and also likely boots from flash, if that fails its an even bigger issue.

That is assuming the car still runs with some of these systems dead. Its perfectly possible that some piece of code running in some computer box somewhere in the car expects a response from one of these, and if it doesn't get one or gets a weird response in a crashed state that it does something stupid, preventing the car from starting or driving.

[tszaboo]

This part of the article is particularly 

Prescott went on to argue that it would be unreasonable for federal regulators to expect electronic parts to function properly for the entire lifetime of a vehicle, given that "electronic components are becoming increasingly more complex while, at the same time, the expected useful life of vehicles has grown substantially.

"It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle's entire useful life," Prescott said.

My cheap $400 laptop has a longer lifespan than 5-6 years...

Technologically infeasible? They can figure out how to get a rocket to mars yet they can't figure out that using quality SLC flash memory and not write to it could make there infotainment system last past 25 years. So yeah its just a made up Apple like excuse of "Its not broken, you are using it wrong"

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

[Halcyon]

My Volvo from 2014 appears to be using a spinning rust harddrive in the infotainment system because you can hear hard drive head seeking sounds when the infotainment system is loading things. I'm sure they gave it "rubber baby buggy bumpers" as Dave would say but still i am a a bit worried what happens when this hard drive eventually dies. The firmware is probably in flash memory since the boot screen comes up instantly. I think its keeping the satnav maps and the mp3 music (that you can copy onto internal memory from USB). So hopefully you just loose access to those features when the spinning rust grinds to a halt. If the whole infotainment goes belly up then i also loose radio, bluetooth, AC, heated seats, window defrosters, parking sensors... etc and access to all the car settings(of which there are many). It does also have a digital dash that appears to be a separate system and also likely boots from flash, if that fails its an even bigger issue.

Probably. Even modern Mercedes Benz (and others) use spinning 2.5" drives. But they don't store any critical data. Replace the disk, the system should re-initialise and off you go again (they are usually behind the infotainment unit).

[thinkfat]

Well OK, I might not expect an entertainment device (cheap Android tablet or smartphone) to live longer than 5-6 years because of whatever 'wear', but I'm buying a car that just happens to have such system in it. Am I expected to know, and be comfortable with, a car becoming unusable because the built-in, glorified tablet computer thing dies after 5-6 years when I'm out of warranty? Geez, they've got some nerve! If that isn't dodgy I don't know what is. Their argumentation is, for sure!

[Berni]

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

Exactly my point.

Sure electronics have a hard life inside cars. And they do fail sometimes but ever since the introduction of fancy electronics in cars the car manufacturers have been pushing for there improvement to make them as reliable as everything else. They came up with AEC qualification for electronics components used in these fancy computers to make sure the components themselves are manufactured to proper specs required for automotive use. The finished modules are put trough tough tests to make sure they hold up. The results speak for themselves in my opinion. Sure failiures might be more common on modern cars just because they have more features. You can't have your ABS system throw an error if you don't have an ABS system. You can't have a power steering failure if your car doesn't have power steering. But even in these cases i think its rather rare for a box of electronics to die, often the errors they throw are related to a mechanical failure or a sensor/wiring failure.

So in this sense a electric car like a Tesla should be more reliable than a classical gasoline car, there are much fewer moving parts to fail.

Then again Apple will also sell you a new motherboard for your broken "does not turn on" MacBook while all you need is a guy like Louis Rossmann taking 10 minutes of his time to replace a display connector. All while these laptops are full of design flaws that make them unreliable in the long term. Yet fanboys still flock to them.

[bdunham7]

Tesla didn't bother with 'automotive grade'.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29200/customers-revolt-as-fix-for-teslas-touchscreen-yellow-band-problem-remains-elusive

[Dr. Frank]

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

Exactly my point.

Sure electronics have a hard life inside cars. And they do fail sometimes but ever since the introduction of fancy electronics in cars the car manufacturers have been pushing for there improvement to make them as reliable as everything else. They came up with AEC qualification for electronics components used in these fancy computers to make sure the components themselves are manufactured to proper specs required for automotive use. The finished modules are put trough tough tests to make sure they hold up. The results speak for themselves in my opinion. Sure failiures might be more common on modern cars just because they have more features. You can't have your ABS system throw an error if you don't have an ABS system. You can't have a power steering failure if your car doesn't have power steering. But even in these cases i think its rather rare for a box of electronics to die, often the errors they throw are related to a mechanical failure or a sensor/wiring failure.

So in this sense a electric car like a Tesla should be more reliable than a classical gasoline car, there are much fewer moving parts to fail.

Then again Apple will also sell you a new motherboard for your broken "does not turn on" MacBook while all you need is a guy like Louis Rossmann taking 10 minutes of his time to replace a display connector. All while these laptops are full of design flaws that make them unreliable in the long term. Yet fanboys still flock to them.

Hello NANDBlog and Berni,

just to enforce my former statement, regular Automotive electronics are designed and tested  completely to assure they last the whole car life, w/o any excuses, exceptions or limitations on a certain use case.

The AEC-Q xxx  standards make sure that this is secured on 'Component Level', i.e. to assure that the naked components are fit for automotive environmental conditions regarding temperature, humidity, ESD, EMC and so on.

Additionally there are defined requirements and tests on 'Board Level', i.e. to assure that the components can be safely assembled on the usual automotive grade PCBs AND that the connection techniques (leadfree soldering joints, glueing, bonding, etc.) are reliable over the whole cars life under automotive environmental conditions (e.g. vibration, temperature shock and PCB bending are added).

At last, there are defined requirements and tests on 'Application Level', i.e. to assure that the whole finished electronic device / product is reliable under automotive environmental conditions, (e.g. vibration, humidity and temperature tests of the complete device), but also regarding drift and deterioration processes over the whole car life.

This latter aspect refers to the TESLA eMMC problem, which is definitely prohibited by any regular Automotive grade Tier 1, and not accepted at all by any regular Automotive grade OEM. Same would be the case for that middle display problem. The occurrence of this is problem (due to missing validation testing) is not acceptable at all, as well the customer claim handling by TESLA is unacceptable.

PS: For changes on Electronic Components, 'PCN', a description for these three cases A, B, C can be found in a German Automotive standard called DQM (Delta Qualification Matrix 4.1), published by the ZVEI:
https://www.zvei.org/en/subjects/mobility/product-process-change-notification-method-in-automotive-electronics/


Further details for A level changes will be published elsewhere.

Frank

[gnuarm]

Tesla didn't bother with 'automotive grade'.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29200/customers-revolt-as-fix-for-teslas-touchscreen-yellow-band-problem-remains-elusive

Yeah, I've got the yellow screen problem and I'm pissed about it.  Really pissed.  I can't even get them to provide the UV cure.  Every time I ask they say the UV unit is out of order or something similar. 

Tesla service is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen.  I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts. 

It is hard for me to imagine there is such a large group of owners who are happy to ignore that a car is a fundamentally utilitarian product and that Teslas fall far short of the goal in many respects.  Once the other automakers start ramping up big time Tesla will lose its appeal and things won't be all roses for the company. 

[AVGresponding]

I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts.

Perhaps this is the cue for you to set up a "Real Tesla Owners Forum".

If Musk is relying on the Apple business model to brainwash and browbeat his customers, he may be in for a nasty shock. The automotive industry is much more mature and regulated, and the big traditional manufacturers may appear on the surface to be crusty old dinosaurs, but they are money motivated and utterly ruthless when it comes to destroying the opposition given any chink in the armour.

[gnuarm]

I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts.

Perhaps this is the cue for you to set up a "Real Tesla Owners Forum".

If Musk is relying on the Apple business model to brainwash and browbeat his customers, he may be in for a nasty shock. The automotive industry is much more mature and regulated, and the big traditional manufacturers may appear on the surface to be crusty old dinosaurs, but they are money motivated and utterly ruthless when it comes to destroying the opposition given any chink in the armour.

Not me, I'm afraid of Tesla.  There's a guy who posted videos of his work resurrecting salvaged Teslas.  He made a bunch from Youtube but also earned a ton of Tesla rewards from referrals.  His videos were not really negative, but he would point out issues.  Then he came out with a video that Tesla didn't like and they banned him from the referrals program and invalidated all his referrals for "bad faith".  I think he had earned a Roadster!  Now he gets bupkis.

One of his videos I was amazed about documented his efforts to buy a used Tesla from Tesla.  Rich doesn't exaggerate or color the events, he simply documents and reports.  It was months of dealing with different people by phone and getting nowhere, not even confirmation of where the car was!  This was after he had committed to buying the car.  Once he is told he can pick up the car, he drives for hours and the car is nowhere to be found.

I don't know how people don't hear about the way Tesla treats customers and continue to buy the cars.  I guess people figure they won't be getting in trouble with Tesla.

I bought my car early enough that I have free lifetime supercharging.  They can yank that from me if I make waves.  No, I won't be poking the bear.

[bdunham7]

Tesla service is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen.  I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts. 

It is hard for me to imagine there is such a large group of owners who are happy to ignore that a car is a fundamentally utilitarian product and that Teslas fall far short of the goal in many respects.  Once the other automakers start ramping up big time Tesla will lose its appeal and things won't be all roses for the company.

Welcome to the new order, where Orwell's 1984 is banned, Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 is burned and truth is considered FUD if it upsets anyone.  All in the name of peace, harmony and 'data protection'.

A friend who lives in an area where Tesla is less common bought a 3 and was happy with it until the screen went dark.  100 mile tow to the service center and they told him it was his fault because his USB drive (for recording camera video) was full and that caused it to lock up.  A week or so later the screen quit again after an OTA update, so another 100 mile tow and apparently they've now managed to fix it.  One more time an it's a lemon and he's a lawyer, so....

[Bassman59]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

IDK, My Toyota just came with an emergency repair kit. If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work? Or it has enough air in it?

The “emergency repair kit” — basically a can of Fix-a-Flat — is useless when the tire shreds because it either blew out at speed, or even just driving the car for a few feet until you realize that the tire you didn’t check that morning was flat.

Of course, the can of Fix-a-Flat has a shelf life, too.

[tszaboo]

The AEC-Q xxx  standards make sure that this is secured on 'Component Level', i.e. to assure that the naked components are fit for automotive environmental conditions regarding temperature, humidity, ESD, EMC and so on.

I'm aware of the standards, and what they are for.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if it is a legal requirement  to actually pass these to be able to place a car on the market, I believe it is not. Can someone clarify?
As I understand traditional car manufacturers, like VW (for example) ask their suppliers, like Bosch (for example) so their parts pass AEC-Q. Otherwise the Quality control team of VW wouldn't allow to place the part in their car.
There is actually no requirements by the European Commission (for example) to pass AEC-Q, since it would make the life of small manufacturers impossible. And Tesla or Peugeot can place any part they actually want in their cars, and end up with unreliable cars.
If I'm wrong, please someone correct me.

[Syntax Error]

Tesla ( aka Elon Musk ) hoovers up BTC

Wall Street Journal : Tesla Buys $1.5 Billion in Bitcoin : "Cryptocurrency’s price soars after electric-vehicle maker says it soon expects to accept customer payments in bitcoin"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-buys-1-5-billion-in-bitcoin-11612791688

Why? Because he's a geek and he can.

[Berni]

Yeah Musk does a lot of things "just because he can"

There are a lot of strong opinions about bitcoin out there, i personalty think its too unstable to be a useful currency for everyday use and we are burning a crap top of power for no reason to mine it, but i find the whole idea interesting none the less.

But i do like the silly side of Elon. Most big companies are a bunch of boring stuck up business men that wouldn't know a joke even if it hit them in the face, if anything finding it offensive and "damaging to our brand". But Tesla on the other hand purposely chooses model names to spell out S E X Y and stuffs the software on it so full of easter eggs that the easter bunny must be jealous. What other car calls the sport mode "ludicrous mode" and shows a star trek warp speed animation upon turning it on. Silly things like that make a product feel more friendly in my opinion.

[floobydust]

JD Power survey placed Tesla last out of 32 vehicle brands in terms of quality. Well, it's gotta be pretty bad:
"The State Administration for Market Regulation, China’s top market regulator, said Monday that it and four other regulators had instructed Tesla to abide by Chinese laws and regulations and strengthen internal management to ensure the quality and safety of its products."
"In a statement late Monday in China, Tesla Shanghai said it “sincerely accepted the guidance of government departments.” It said it had “deeply reflected on shortcomings” and was working on strengthening its operations. It also said it would investigate Chinese consumers’ complaints and abide by Chinese laws and regulations."

[gnuarm]

Wow!  I hadn't heard that.  I'd like to see Musk break bad with the Chinese like he did with the Alameda County government when they wanted to keep them shut down at the beginning of the pandemic.  He threatened to leave CA, but that only means the "HQ" really.  That factory is going nowhere. 

Tesla is going to continue ramping up in 2021 with Berlin coming on line, then see slower growth in 2022.  They will be bringing online the roadster/pickup/semi in an order they've not indicated.  None of the three will be big growth products for them... possibly the semi, but the issue is going to be charging.  There are chargers everywhere, but the semi needs 8 of them and many locations only have 8.  Initially the semi will only be used for hauls that allow for charging at the start and end points.  That's not a lot of semis really. 

I really can't see the semi selling well.  The roadster is a high profit item, but how many $200,000 cars can you sell?  Maybe they should price it at a million.  Don't have to sell nearly as many of those!

[floobydust]

I expect a car to last more than "5-6 years" because I'm non-rich and can't buy the latest and greatest model every few years. In Canada, cars die either due to rust (get a DeLorean!) or the repair costs because the dealerships gouge on parts/repairs to push you into just getting a new car.

Tesla stock is a huge bubble right now, market cap $811B - worth more than at least 7-8 major car manufacturers COMBINED. Every other car maker is on their tail trying to make something electric, competition is going to get fierce. Nobody has time to make quality. There's going to be many fires, recalls, crashes with electric vehicles as well as insane repair costs due to bad engineering.

I can't see Tesla stock actually worth this much. 2020Q4 production 500,000 cars.
Mind you the entire stock market is at record highs and Tesla buying $1.5B worth of Bitcoin for a cache, seems like more air for the bubble.

[gnuarm]

I don't short stocks as there is unlimited risk unless you cover it.  But if any stock was ripe for a bubble being burst, this is the one.  It may not happen soon unless the entire market drops big time.  Towards the end of the year or next year will be the reckoning in my opinion.  There are so many fanbois out there, it has more support than Gamestop any day.

[Bud]

. What other car calls the sport mode "ludicrous mode" and shows a star trek warp speed animation upon turning it on.

Send them Satta Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, and in no time they will put the giant display to good use running a clunky tile plain flat interface with 5 updates a day following reboots. That is going to be fun to watch.

[gnuarm]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

[Monkeh]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

Err, included under the Atom range is a series with up to 24-cores, 32 PCIe lanes, 16 SATA ports, 100Gbps (yes, that's two zeros) ethernet, and support for 128GiB of RAM. Pretty lame.

[coppice]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

So, they don't expect the electronics to last long enough for the autonomous driving software you've paid for to be delivered and installed on it.

[Berni]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

Err, included under the Atom range is a series with up to 24-cores, 32 PCIe lanes, 16 SATA ports, 100Gbps (yes, that's two zeros) ethernet, and support for 128GiB of RAM. Pretty lame.

Yes that is something that got released this very month and its designed for servers where you need many slow threads without them eating up huge amounts of power.

The sort of Atom you would find in a 6 year old Tesla infotainment system is not going to be one of those chips. The earlier Atom processors got a really bad reputation due to being used in ultra portable laptops back in the day. These laptops ware really slow compared to all the other ones running more classical x86 chips. So it got a reputation for being slow, and yes it was slow, you wouldn't want an Atom CPU in your daily driver PC. Yet it still did it at impressively low power consumption so in terms of performance/watt its actually pretty good. This combined with having a lot of the peripheral controllers (that would otherwise live in a south bridge) integrated on the chip makes it a good choice as a x86 SOC to integrate into products.

So its probably a pretty nice fit for an infotainment system. Linux will run just fine on old underpowered hardware and most of the heavy lifting of drawing a pretty UI is likely handled by the integrated GPU anyway.

Im still very much against the overall trend in automotive towards big ass touchscreens, but that's a topic for another day-

[Monkeh]

The sort of Atom you would find in a 6 year old Tesla infotainment system is not going to be one of those chips.

I have no information dating this infotainment system - just a random photo of mostly irrelevant details and a blanket "ew, atom" statement, I've no way to tell if that's the latest and greatest off the line yesterday or something from the dark ages. And even six years ago there were some pretty decent chips in the lineup if, as you mention, you're not trying to run the least responsive software imaginable. ps. Snow Ridge came out a year ago, not last week.

E: If you happen to have any solid information on what's actually in 'MCU2', as opposed to the contradictory speculation Google wants to feed me today, I'm curious.

[gnuarm]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

Err, included under the Atom range is a series with up to 24-cores, 32 PCIe lanes, 16 SATA ports, 100Gbps (yes, that's two zeros) ethernet, and support for 128GiB of RAM. Pretty lame.

Yeah, show me how it compares to nearly any other non-atom processor with similar features other than the atom name.  The whole point is the Atom is slow so as to be low power.  They rip out a bunch of stuff to reduce the circuitry, so of course it is small allowing you to get 24 of them on a chip.  Normally this would be bad as it's hard to design a memory interface to keep up with that many CPUs, but when they are Atoms it's not so tough. 

Yes that is something that got released this very month and its designed for servers where you need many slow threads without them eating up huge amounts of power.

The sort of Atom you would find in a 6 year old Tesla infotainment system is not going to be one of those chips. The earlier Atom processors got a really bad reputation due to being used in ultra portable laptops back in the day. These laptops ware really slow compared to all the other ones running more classical x86 chips. So it got a reputation for being slow, and yes it was slow, you wouldn't want an Atom CPU in your daily driver PC. Yet it still did it at impressively low power consumption so in terms of performance/watt its actually pretty good. This combined with having a lot of the peripheral controllers (that would otherwise live in a south bridge) integrated on the chip makes it a good choice as a x86 SOC to integrate into products.

Six year old?  This design is older than that I think.  Actually my car got an upgrade to something so it may have been this board.  It had to do with the full self driving capability, but... that's not quite the same as "infotainment" and I'm pretty sure it isn't running on an Atom.

So its probably a pretty nice fit for an infotainment system. Linux will run just fine on old underpowered hardware and most of the heavy lifting of drawing a pretty UI is likely handled by the integrated GPU anyway.

So if this is such a great processor, why would it be so dogged slow on the browser.  I suppose that could actually be the connectivity.  It's over the cell network and I'm pretty sure they aren't using 5G.

I'm no fan of Atom because every review I've seen of them indicates there is an ARM that is better, faster, lower power and cheaper.  Intel still owns the desktop, but that is fading away and mobile is taking over.

Im still very much against the overall trend in automotive towards big ass touchscreens, but that's a topic for another day-

I'm opposed to touch screens of any size.  Cars bounce around making touch screens problematic.  I guess if it only supports the "press" of a button and no swipes it can work ok, but the big Tesla screen that you reach at nearly arms length has a tendency to see lots of button presses as swipes and ignore them.  Sometimes I have to press a button three, four or five times to take effect.  Trying to bump the heater fan up a few notches is a PITA. 

The Tesla UI is far, far too complex to be safe.  But I didn't say that out loud, did I? 

[Berni]

From the line that specifically mentions it has a "Full self driving computer" installed i assumed that it is handled by some other black box somewhere. Perhaps having more specialized hardware towards image processing and AI, maybe running some of Nvidias SOC offerings. But those are just my guesses, they are probably wrong.

But yeah web browsers are actually a surprisingly resource intensive task these days. The new complicated broad HTML5 functionality and websites abusing it into ridiculous amounts of bloat means that any browser that has to open a modern website has a fair bit of work to do. This is the reason why Chrome and Firefox are such resource hogs. So yeah embedded systems with limited resources like this can have trouble being a competent browser. On top of it as browsers try to run the mountains of scripts faster they start introducing fancy dynamic recompiling tricks. When these tricks go wrong they can crash in spectacular ways that takes down even things other than the browser. A lot of the more modern gaming console hacks involved crashing the built in web browser in just the right way to corrupt memory in just the right way.

As for touchscreens other manufacturers are not doing much better of a job (Tho Tesla did sort of make touchscreens popular in cars). Everyone is moving more and more hard button controls into the touchscreen. Dads new Volvo does it too, the menus are a confusing mess and pressing buttons is trial and error once the car is moving and going over bumps. Luckily the EU is starting to step in and tell manufacturers just how bad of an idea these things are for road safety. But i have a feeling that all this will result in is a list of important buttons that must remain hard buttons that manufacturers will just put somewhere hastily in the form of a tiny button to make it comply, then replicate the same button on the touchscreen.

[gnuarm]

I don't see my PC browser eating up much resources until i open multiple tabs and windows, but there certainly are sites that are insanely intensive.  But I'm talking about pages that I opened yesterday just fine, today bogging the display and even make the entire dash board crash.  Then after rebooting the browser works fine until it throws the next fit. 

I don't know if there is any software on the Tesla that is solid.  I tell people all the time it is a cell phone with wheels. 

Touch screens are what we get because the voice commands in the Tesla are far behind the industry.  When my android is paired with the car many functions are absorbed into the car like texting.  I can text by voice much better with the phone than I can by the car.  I should be able to turn on the wipers by voice.  I can't so I enable the auto wipers which suck.  They could be used in Las Vegas to generate random numbers for the roulette wheel. 

I think we need more law suits against Tesla.  Lots more. 

[JPortici]

I expect a car to last more than "5-6 years" because I'm non-rich and can't buy the latest and greatest model every few years.

you don't get it. You are supposed to lease the car, and after 3-4 years you can start over and lease another.
(this is the situation here, may vary depending on country)
Full hybrid/EV pays no tax for the first... you guessed it! 4 years. Then you'd rather have bought a 3.0L petrol porsche or something, if you leased it it's a problem only for the poor guy that will buy an EV for "cheap" (which by the way is how i got my current car, mid range executive trim that i wouldn't have been able to afford otherwise. 4 years old but barely used)
Besides, prices were inflated so much in the last 4 yeras that a citycar that used to cost 10-12k is now about 18k, but if you lease it the "base" price is now 11k (but 17k with interests)

[PlainName]

You are supposed to lease the car, and after 3-4 years you can start over and lease another.

That's very popular over here. For the drivers, who don't really understand the shit they've stepped into yet, and the vendors, who can't believe how easy it is to lock in punters and make a killing with little risk.

It's fine so long as you don't mind throwing the monthly rental away every month forever. If you hit hard times you have no car and no money to  buy a car, and if that hard time just happens to be a year or so down the line you'll be paying a fee on top as well.

And don't even think about doing too many miles or getting a scratch on in it the supermarket car park. Much better to buy and own a 3yo motor outright.

[SiliconWizard]

It's fine so long as you don't mind throwing the monthly rental away every month forever. If you hit hard times you have no car and no money to  buy a car, and if that hard time just happens to be a year or so down the line you'll be paying a fee on top as well.

Yes. This rental model is wicked. It may sound practical at first sight, but it makes us completely dependent. If either you, or the car seller, has a problem, you may end up with nothing left. And it's just the beginning. Next thing you know, once all vehicles are entirely and permanently "connected", if you havent paid the rent or the system has any problem, you may not even be able to start the car. Possibly from one minute to the next.

That's the opposite of being autonomous.

[Medved]

The worldwide Automotive Industry, namely the Tier 2, Tier 1 and OEMs, they have very high standards concerning reliability, safety and defects liability, either being safety or simply functionally relevant.
All HW and SW components are designed, manufactured, verified and validated (tested) to the commonly accepted Automotive industry standards to secure that all components and systems are safe and operate w/o defects over the whole span of the cars life, i.e. at least 10 years, for some OEMs even up to 20 years.

The relevant documents for this philosophy (on components) can be found here: http://www.aecouncil.com/AECDocuments.html

'Wear and Tear parts' like the brake are obviously not included, but an eMMC, in interaction with its SW driver and the whole SW application, is of course not regarded as such a wear and tear component. See especially the AEC - Q100-005 - REV-D1

Well, Tesla is ridiculously known to "suffice with no AEC grade components" from their suppliers...
I think that tells it all...
And don't surprises anyone I guess...

[kaz911]

I do not find Tesla that different from most other car companies.

I have owned Porsche Cayenne Turbo on a "company" paid for benefit - where the car radio / control system died when car was about 6 years old. Replacement cost about $8000+ (If I had not had it on Porsche Extended Warranty)  - that was a common problem. (I think made by Becker Germany for Porsche)

I own a Ford Galaxy 2014 - where Radio / control system died due to touch screen defect (common problem) - it died at the 5 year mark. (System made by Becker Germany) - replacement Radio / control system from Ford : Euro 3500,-  I bought a replacement from a scrap yard - and then plan to replace the touch screen in the old one.

A lot of my friends have BMW's - and their displays often die after 5-7 years - resulting charge of $3-15.000 dependent on which part of the display. When I was in the Middle East - it was even worse - most BMW's had display failures due to the heat. Yes it is hard to make a car that might sit in the sun @ 50degC - but that should be part of the consideration when you make a car to sell in that area.

I'm not saying Tesla is good - and they should have done better. I'm saying Tesla is not alone in producing electronics that will fail. And I know both Porsche and Ford might be able to drive post a control system failure. But you will be driving without a lot of creature comforts like AC, navigation, fan control etc or not know the settings.

Becker in Germany makes a lot of Radio/Control units for car manufactures. What characterise them in my opinion is they are at least 4-8 years behind "current" technology - and always very expensive to get fixed. Tesla at least is more "current" in their technology.

Sadly I do think a lot of products are "made to fail" maybe not the above but... A large % of revenue in any dealership is from repairs.

The worst I have seen is UK brand Baxi boilers - where the control PCB sites right below the boiler. The PCB gets up to 75-100 degC hot for extended periods of time. They used 105 degC capacitors off "not first class" brand all over with relative low hour rating. The board had components worth maybe $15 on it in total - single sided through hole - but replacement cost is about GBP 280,- plus labour plus VAT for the PCB. $3 worth of high quality capacitors made it all work again - and PCB never failed after that. Just eBay search for Baxi refurb PCB and you will see a lot of re-capped Baxi boards. But the average consumer would not know that. But those boilers are in my opinion made to fail. If it was intentional or the MBA in the purchase department who wanted to save some pennies - I do not know. But I think it is was really bad.

[srb1954]

You are supposed to lease the car, and after 3-4 years you can start over and lease another.

That's very popular over here. For the drivers, who don't really understand the shit they've stepped into yet, and the vendors, who can't believe how easy it is to lock in punters and make a killing with little risk.

It's fine so long as you don't mind throwing the monthly rental away every month forever. If you hit hard times you have no car and no money to  buy a car, and if that hard time just happens to be a year or so down the line you'll be paying a fee on top as well.

And don't even think about doing too many miles or getting a scratch on in it the supermarket car park. Much better to buy and own a 3yo motor outright.

Leasing cars is very popular for companies in my country.

The main reason is that the leasing fees are completely tax deductible whereas buying a car outright only allows a much smaller tax deduction for depreciation. A secondary reason is that companies don't have to be too concerned with maintenance and they can just get rid of the car no problem at the end of the lease.