Author Topic: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)  (Read 15202 times)

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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #150 on: December 15, 2018, 08:54:32 pm »
Here's a joke:

I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.

No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.

An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.

A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2018, 09:22:38 pm »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Coat hangers made my system sound woolly.
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2018, 12:25:12 am »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2018, 01:57:20 am »
Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".

A computer magazine did such a test 18 years ago. The test setup: they used 17 different music pieces, and people had to listen to 1 minute CD quality first, then either 128 kbit/s MP3, 256 kbit/s or the same CD quality again, for 1 minute. So it was a A/B test. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into the details if it was a double-blind test, but I guess they knew what they were doing. The conclusion: nobody could hear a difference between CD quality and 256 kbit/s MP3, the 256 kbit/s MP3 was classified as CD quality as often as the CD quality test. But some people could hear a difference between 128 kbit/s MP3 and CD quality. But again, for some music, people thought the 128 kbit/s MP3 was better than the CD quality.

I think maybe an even better test setup than A/B is the ABX test, executed as double blind trials as well: "A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B.". The statistical results are less ambiguous than the concept with the arbitrary point system used by the computer magazine test. But I guess audiophools would argue that the relays used to switch the speaker cables influenced the sound, or other silly arguments. BTW, I think using mechanical relays could be a problem, because you could potentially hear different click sounds for different audio paths. Should be well shielded or very quiet relays.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2018, 05:35:54 am »
Here's a joke:

I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.

No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.

An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.

A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.


I'd advise stubborn AFers to get the ear wax fudge flushed out first,
especially if the sound is no longer as airy as it was when they first used the $ $ $ $ $ $ speaker wire,
and some blab on how a wax clean improves the ears audio convection ( :bullshit:) to get their attention,
because the facts and A-B blindfold comparison mashup is obviously Verboten City   

Advice that will most likely go in one ear, and out the ? ? ? anyway...  :horse:



« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 05:41:57 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2018, 05:57:00 am »
Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".

A computer magazine did such a test 18 years ago. The test setup: they used 17 different music pieces, and people had to listen to 1 minute CD quality first, then either 128 kbit/s MP3, 256 kbit/s or the same CD quality again, for 1 minute. So it was a A/B test. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into the details if it was a double-blind test, but I guess they knew what they were doing. The conclusion: nobody could hear a difference between CD quality and 256 kbit/s MP3, the 256 kbit/s MP3 was classified as CD quality as often as the CD quality test. But some people could hear a difference between 128 kbit/s MP3 and CD quality. But again, for some music, people thought the 128 kbit/s MP3 was better than the CD quality.

I think maybe an even better test setup than A/B is the ABX test, executed as double blind trials as well: "A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B.". The statistical results are less ambiguous than the concept with the arbitrary point system used by the computer magazine test. But I guess audiophools would argue that the relays used to switch the speaker cables influenced the sound, or other silly arguments. BTW, I think using mechanical relays could be a problem, because you could potentially hear different click sounds for different audio paths. Should be well shielded or very quiet relays.

Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening. 

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.
 
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Offline mrz80

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Oh good LORD ALMIGHTY but my head hurts after reading the ad copy (and ESPECIALLY after reading the TAS excerpt) at the head of this thread!  |O |O |O  I've been sitting on the edge of the audio world since I was a little kid, watching it all go down, and the capacity of the human animal to lie to himself and believe it just goes beyond all bounds in this environment.



I used to go round-and-round with a coworker who's a degreed electrical engineer and REALLY ought to KNOW better about the whole cables thing. Ah well, he doesn't have kids so it's not like he's squandering anyone's inheritance...  ::)

I am **SO** glad my granddad (one of the pioneers of this once respectable, now misbegotten environment) did not live to see the reasoned, conservative, well-engineered approach to high fidelity audio reproduction so marginalized by a group of people, companies, and magazines that make Amar Bose look like a pillar of moral rectitude and truth in advertising!  :palm:

[edit]  Oh, and for those who want to start a rational discussion about wire with someone who might NOT be too far gone to rescue from drinking the snake oil... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 09:24:39 pm by mrz80 »
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Offline Deodand2014

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Do it! Hopefully, they'll all stab their eardrums out with them and we won't have to worry about them anymore. >:D

I think one already went deaf.

I re-quote from Audiogoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cannot-find-perfect-sound/post?postid=1643618

Quote

Cannot find perfect sound
Nutkenjit
09-21-2018 10:47pm

I've been listening to supposedly some of the finest speakers that currently exist. These include b&w 800 Series, revel high end, vivid audio, Psi audio and kef blades.
They must have excellent hearing and I wonder if they would submit themselves to hearing tests to confirm how good their hearing is to notice the difference.

Quote
Nutjim204
09-21-2018 10:55pm
I think one because they are probably a centimetre from your ear drum and two they are blasting may100 db as well and maybe they have damaged your eardrums so much that you now can't differentiate good from bad. Them earbuds'll do it every time.


Somewhere up the thread and their hearing is going to or on Dire Straits:

Quote
Nutpcc677
11-03-2018 1:48pm
Elizabeth,  I totally agree. I have noticed many recordings are crap. So I set up playlist of music that sounds the best to me. Dire straits,  Diana krall and quite a few others.

So it is the recordings that are crap and not your ears?

No idea, I recently picked up a pair of second hand LG LHS-W75TAF (6ohm, 200watt) speakers to pair with my audio unit (4-16ohm, 65watt), both seem to sound fine, though even my non-expert hearing makes me want to find out just what is inside the speakers, as I'm not sure if they are working correctly (When I pass below the mid plane of the speaker towers the sound is 'above' me.) I seriously doubt any audiophile would be able to tell much more than that.
 

Offline mrz80

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2019, 08:52:25 pm »
Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening.

That has been my experience as well. In a pristine audio environment maybe I *might* discern audible degradation in a 128k MP3 vs the source, but in the real world, noisy kitchen/living room at home, the zoo-like cubefarm at work, or God help us all the car, it's a non-issue. Compression artifacts are totally swamped by lousy car speakers and environmental noise.  ::)

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.

Ah, the South West Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society!  I remember seeing that name in old Audio Amateur magazines. Are they still a going concern? I sure hope so, if  just for the name!  :-+ :-+
Roger Russell describes a similar setup that Gordon Gow used to use during his lectures on the ins and outs of speaker cable.  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow  :popcorn:
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Offline electromotive

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I expect better screen printing for $35,000. It's not even embossed.
 

Offline Zenith

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I expect better screen printing for $35,000. It's not even embossed.

It's tempting to call you a Philistine, but anyway, it's clear you just don't understand. I shall attempt to educate you, although I feel it's a lost cause.

When assembling a top end speaker cable system like this, each part has to be carefully auditioned, not just for it's own merits, but for its ability to work cooperatively and complement other parts of the system. The lettering is not just an identification, it was chosen for its acoustic competence as well as its nominal role, and is workmanlike but is not merely functional.There is something of the artist about it, taking pride in its work and willingly going the extra mile, but it resists being a prima donna, a trap gold embossed lettering can easily fall into. It forms part of an exquisitely balanced team which can not merely cope, but excel with any programme material, Heavy Metal, Chamber Music, Gregorian Chant, Blues, and can make the best of any source, even making up for the glaring deficiencies of being matched with budget (sub $10,000) components. It plays its part in a whole which is definite without being overly insistent, and precise, but avoids straying into being boringly pedantic. It greatly adds to the presence. It plays a full and positive part in a very musical but restrained component system which many would describe as frighteningly revealing - especially about the sanity of anyone tempted to buy it.

Sorry about that. This thing is nonsense on stilts. Still maybe it's only jousting for silliness with audiophile mains leads of any sort - shouldn't purchasers also have their house wiring redone in at least solid silver cable?

I suppose on balance, this audiophoolery is a good thing. There's a demand and a market created and I doubt many kids are going to school barefoot because of it.

 
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Offline Pluscrafter

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“Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation”

Meaning; 1% Copper, 99% Bullshit

I agree with you on this.
I admit I was stumped by his claim, after all since when is copper coated aluminium proprietary ?
For this price a gold plated platin wire would be appropirate.

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Offline Stuart Coyle

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I'm an amateur beekeeper. Maybe I can sell my pure organic oxygen-free Italian queen Manuka beeswax to them to make fuses with.
I will only charge $25000 per kilogram.
 

Offline grifftech

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it probably sounds better than $0.01 per meter
 

Offline GregDunn

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Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening.

That has been my experience as well. In a pristine audio environment maybe I *might* discern audible degradation in a 128k MP3 vs the source, but in the real world, noisy kitchen/living room at home, the zoo-like cubefarm at work, or God help us all the car, it's a non-issue. Compression artifacts are totally swamped by lousy car speakers and environmental noise.  ::)

Yes, in the car or just as background music, or with a lower quality recording, there's no way I could hear a difference.  The ABX test really requires each pair of samples to be compared, randomized, and compared again at least 10 times to be statistically significant.  It took me minutes of listening and repeated comparisons for each excerpt in order to hear anything at 128k - and to be completely honest, I have no idea what it was that I used to ID the differences.  It was a nearly subconscious perception of clarity or something, but whatever it was, I was able to pick 10/10 for each of the samples so it wasn't imagination.  After the 10 tests for each sample, I was very fatigued and had to take a break.  IMHO, anyone who says the differences are "obvious" has never actually done a scientific test.

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.

Ah, the South West Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society!  I remember seeing that name in old Audio Amateur magazines. Are they still a going concern? I sure hope so, if  just for the name!  :-+ :-+
Roger Russell describes a similar setup that Gordon Gow used to use during his lectures on the ins and outs of speaker cable.  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow  :popcorn:

I love those guys.  They approach high fidelity in a rational, positive way and share their findings willingly.  No one stands to profit from deception in that group.  I just wish they were better known in the industry; the only way it seems you can get in touch with them is via email or snail mail, and their monthly meetings are livecast but not advertised anywhere except on their site.  At one time they sold the ABX box, but it seems hard to find info on it today.
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Will these fit in my multimeter? I've been getting wonky readings lately i think the fuses are causing too much noise.
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Offline Radiosonde

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Lol
I should sell 7/8 cellflex with 7/16 connectors for Audio...surely in a flexible clowth out of silk, sewed by virgins in moonlight.
Its only 5000 $ per meter...

LG

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Offline mrz80

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Last time I actually had a hifi setup, my speaker cables were snipped off a drum of three core mains cable with the earth snipped off. Sounded great! Then again I don't have Ferengi ears.

That was exactly what my grandfather did when he retired and moved from Binghamton to Phoenix. He scrounged a few lengths of 12/3 the electrician had pitched when the house was a-building, and used it for speaker wire. If it was good enough for The Old Man™ it oughta be good enough for anyone. :)

In my system I used a 25' 12/3 extension cord cut in half and the ends terminated with banana plugs and spade lugs, with some heat-shrink to keep it all looking neat. Looks fancy high end from a distance, and only cost me about $30 at Home Cheapot. Siskel and Ebert give it two thumbs up! :D
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Offline pwlps

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I have shown this thread title to a friend who asked, apparently without joking, if this is a superconducting wire. I laughed but then thought wow, this would make an ultimate audiophool-money-grade gear to show off with, the holy grail of speaker cable :). Actually the cable itself could be much cheaper, you can get thin-film high-Tc coated leads within $1k or less and a flexible vacuum-insulated cryogenic housing isn't that much more.  Cooling is a bit more problematic, the standard commercial cryocoolers (Gifford-McMahon cycle or similar) are way too noisy for audio environment, maybe a mini Stirling cooler would be silent enough. Otherwise a dewar with liquid nitrogen? Of course with a contract for weekly refill :)
 

Offline mrz80

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Y'know I wonder if products like these are important means of laundering or embezzlement.  You buy so-and-so from me and I perform so-and-so service for you, and voila, money has changed hands for whatever underhanded purpose.  Except it's not just money, but a legitimate good, and who's to say what the fair market value of that good is but its agreed sale price?

The cost of materials and labor that went into such a good, are merely a kind of tax extracted upon the laundered money.  The cost of doing business.

The scale doesn't seem quite appropriate for this though; I'd have to think they'd be moving quantities of thousands, to handle the scale of money that's normally needed to be laundered?  No idea, I know very little about the economics of such things...

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Offline David Hess

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For audio products, I am sure it started off as a real market but the money launderers would be dumb if they were not taking advantage of it by now.  Incidentally, the same thing is done in online games to facilitate third party money for gold transactions.

 

Offline wch

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Y'know I wonder if products like these are important means of laundering or embezzlement.  You buy so-and-so from me and I perform so-and-so service for you, and voila, money has changed hands for whatever underhanded purpose.  Except it's not just money, but a legitimate good, and who's to say what the fair market value of that good is but its agreed sale price?

The cost of materials and labor that went into such a good, are merely a kind of tax extracted upon the laundered money.  The cost of doing business.

The scale doesn't seem quite appropriate for this though; I'd have to think they'd be moving quantities of thousands, to handle the scale of money that's normally needed to be laundered?  No idea, I know very little about the economics of such things...

Tim

It is much easier to use AirBnB, Ebay, Amazon, and such to launder large sums of money. I imagine this sort of stuff is a much simpler, legal, very high margin con.
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Offline MrMobodies

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It's all make believe... They make it and the buyers believe it.
 
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Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2019, 12:17:55 am »
Two quotes come to mind:

"There's a sucker born every minute" -- P. T. Barnum

"Some people have more money than brains" -- Me
 


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