Author Topic: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)  (Read 16386 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #175 on: September 13, 2019, 01:33:55 am »
Here's a joke:
I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.
No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.
An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.
A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.

Their ultimate fear is a true double blind experiment.
Not even when James Randi's $1M was on the line to hear the difference in speaker cables did anyone take him up on it.
 

Offline Keicar

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #176 on: September 13, 2019, 05:04:02 am »
What I find curious is that it's invariably described as a night-and-day difference ("veils were lifted" etc.) that you could hear from the next room, even - yet it can't be discerned in a blind test, because reasons...
 

Online xrunner

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #177 on: September 13, 2019, 12:33:37 pm »
There is no meaningful difference to the ears using the products. However, there is a difference to their minds with these products in place.

The "effect" is the "bonding" achieved with their systems vis-a-vis the apparent beauty of the physical appearance of the products. That is one reason these manufacturers pay special attention to the external appearance. This is to create the feeling that, because of the beauty, the product must be doing something special; therefore, the sound must have been improved.

The cost is also important - it must be exorbitant. This must be the case, because anything added that was cheap could not possibly be a useful technology when added to their already outlandishly expensive equipment. Good sound has to cost a lot, and so nothing inexpensive can do any (more) good. In fact anything cheap would cause their systems to be ruined as far as the perceived sonic greatness they have paid so much for already.

It's all simply psycho-marketing, which I will admit they are masters at.
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #178 on: September 13, 2019, 03:31:22 pm »
There is no meaningful difference to the ears using the products. However, there is a difference to their minds with these products in place.

The "effect" is the "bonding" achieved with their systems vis-a-vis the apparent beauty of the physical appearance of the products. That is one reason these manufacturers pay special attention to the external appearance. This is to create the feeling that, because of the beauty, the product must be doing something special; therefore, the sound must have been improved.

The cost is also important - it must be exorbitant. This must be the case, because anything added that was cheap could not possibly be a useful technology when added to their already outlandishly expensive equipment. Good sound has to cost a lot, and so nothing inexpensive can do any (more) good. In fact anything cheap would cause their systems to be ruined as far as the perceived sonic greatness they have paid so much for already.

It's all simply psycho-marketing, which I will admit they are masters at.

As I said before, it's pretty much the same for a huge chunk of all the luxury industry. Is a $20k luxury watch going to give you more accurate time than a well-designed, modern $30 watch? Yes, but insignificantly in many cases. Of course the pure technical facts, at least from the pure performance POV, are often of little importance for all things luxury.

OTOH, a luxury watch may last a lifetime. That's something. The same can apply to a luxury cable. If it's designed well and uses good materials. Even if it doesn't do squat for sound quality. Even the luxury items are marketed for their performance, when the extra performance does actually matter little or is not even there. It's not just in the audio industry. It's just marketing. Marketers do that because they know most people don't feel comfortable passing as shallow, even when they are.

But if it's just grossly overpriced and badly designed crap, then it's not luxury. It's just rip-off.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 03:33:09 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2019, 12:13:43 am »
Is a $20k luxury watch going to give you more accurate time than a well-designed, modern $30 watch? Yes, but insignificantly in many cases.

I once had a wristwatch with solar cells and a DCF77 receiver. Can't remember the exact model, but it was something like this. There is no watch which will give you more accurate time, but it doesn't cost costs a fortune (EUR 330).
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2019, 04:33:59 pm »
The advantage of a luxury watch is that it's an investment, it will still be worth a significant percentage of its purchase price or may even appreciate in value.

HiFi, unlikely and even then only to a tiny niche market.
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Offline Bud

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2019, 04:38:36 pm »
It is meant to be a jewelry , not a time keeping device.
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Online fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2019, 05:06:05 pm »
The advantage of a luxury watch is that it's an investment, it will still be worth a significant percentage of its purchase price or may even appreciate in value.
Given the likely depreciation and, even with appreciation, the time-value of money, I'm still financially better off buying cheap functional watches and throwing them away every few years.  I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #183 on: September 18, 2019, 03:38:14 pm »
I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.

Yes, and high-end Hi-Fi gear as well for some.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #184 on: September 20, 2019, 08:10:11 am »
I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.

Yes, and high-end Hi-Fi gear as well for some.
I don't have a problem with someone buying pure gold audiocables. I have a problem with someone advertising them using ludicrous (and/or immeasurable/impossible) claims.

If someone wants to buy the equivalent of a 10 EUR speaker cable for 30k EUR, by all means. He's an idiot, but if he thinks that's what he needs to do, then by all means.

If however the manufacturer advertises it using false claims, then it's a scam and it should be treated and prosecuted as such.


edit:
From the link at the start:
Quote
MBA uses 6N (99.9999%) high-conductivity pure copper throughout, save for its interconnects, which use solid-core single-crystal copper. MBA’s 100% proprietary copper formulation is extruded here in the U.S. by a manufacturer for the aerospace industry, using MBA’s proprietary methods and specifications. As such, no other company in the world is using this specific copper wire formulation.
So, 99.9999% pure copper is a proprietary formulation? What's the extra 1ppm?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 08:32:02 am by daqq »
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Online taydin

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #185 on: September 20, 2019, 11:47:51 am »
No court, even the ones in banana republics, would consider audiophool equipment a scam. Let's consider a hypothetical $90,000 CD player with a 200 Kg lead implanted frame to reduce vibrations. It makes the buyer happy, makes him feel special, privileged, above the rest :) And he's willing to piss away that much money. And he pays that amount, shakes hand with the seller and leaves with a big smile on his face. Why would a court rule this as scam?

The only way for this to be scam would be if the CD player manufacturer would publish measurable specs and the device would fail to meet them. But good luck finding any measurable and relevant specs for this CD player. The only spec you will find is the width of the sound stage, the amount of "temper" and "crispness" the sound has.
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Offline daqq

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #186 on: September 20, 2019, 03:01:09 pm »
Quote
Why would a court rule this as scam?
Sadly, in most cases it probably would not. It's false advertising though, if nothing else. The moment you claim something about your product, you should be able to back that up. And this kind of crap hurts legitimate businesses more than the dumb bastard who bought the crap.
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Online taydin

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #187 on: September 20, 2019, 03:57:06 pm »
The moment you claim something about your product, you should be able to back that up.

Ok, manufacturer says in the specs that the sound stage is wide. The audiophool agrees. So there is no conflict. But let's say later on the phool changed his mind and sues because the sound stage isn't as wide as was claimed. How does the court do the fact finding?  ;D
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Online fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #188 on: September 20, 2019, 04:03:48 pm »
Ok, manufacturer says in the specs that the sound stage is wide. The audiophool agrees. So there is no conflict. But let's say later on the phool changed his mind and sues because the sound stage isn't as wide as was claimed. How does the court do the fact finding?  ;D

It goes to a jury trial, with technically incompetent lawyers presenting their case to technically incompetent jurors who couldn't manage to get out of jury duty.  The most emotionally persuasive argument carries the day.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #189 on: September 22, 2019, 09:00:42 pm »
Provably false claims are those with figures that can be challenged and verified. And when figures are given and smell, and someone manages to prove them false, that's great. And we can genuinely call that a scam.

When the claims are all based on qualitative parameters and not hard figures, they often can't be proven false. You fall for those claims for any reason, fine. What's the problem? Again it's the part of audio that's in the luxury area. Who cares if you want your f*cking cables to be 100% hard gold or use moon dust or whatever else ;D ? So you're ready to shell out tens of thousands for speaker wires, and you run into some company that has them AND tells you that they are better than anything else. Now who is the idiot, and is a company ready to fulfill a customer's need to blame? Pretty much all companies do that. Sure the corresponding needs are sometimes debatable, but I don't think any of those companies forces anyone to buy. As I just said, if you shell out that much for wires, you were ready to do so anyway. Who in their right mind would suddenly spend that much when they were considering, for instance, 1000 times less expensive stuff? Come on.  ::)

The sad thing with audio gear IMO is that the average joe is often subjected to either overpriced audiophool stuff, or low-cost atrocious crap that some claim are as good as anything. The reasonable, fact- AND experience-based opinions are relatively hard to find for the average crowd.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #190 on: September 23, 2019, 08:46:36 pm »
So, 99.9999% pure copper is a proprietary formulation? What's the extra 1ppm?

 Obviously, ear wax extracted solely from nude virgins, which is what gives it that truly magical sound quality.

 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2019, 12:59:23 am »
Did no one read the specs?  The most impressive thing about these cables is their current capacity, listed as 100 Amps.  Since they also say that the wire is 10 gauge you can compare that to the rated capacity for copper wire which is only 55 amps in chassis wiring applications (short runs and free air) and only 15 amps for power transmission.  Even silver wire wouldn't reduce the resistance enough to make that much difference.

So I don't care if it sounds good, it is magical for carrying power.  Unless of course they may be totally consistent in the veracity of their facts.  Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #192 on: September 24, 2019, 06:12:14 am »
current capacity, listed as 100 Amps [...] Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.

That's probably it.  Remember "music power" ratings?  I haven't seen those in a while.
 

Offline mzzj

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #193 on: September 24, 2019, 06:22:30 am »
Did no one read the specs?  The most impressive thing about these cables is their current capacity, listed as 100 Amps.  Since they also say that the wire is 10 gauge you can compare that to the rated capacity for copper wire which is only 55 amps in chassis wiring applications (short runs and free air) and only 15 amps for power transmission.  Even silver wire wouldn't reduce the resistance enough to make that much difference.

So I don't care if it sounds good, it is magical for carrying power.  Unless of course they may be totally consistent in the veracity of their facts.  Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.
Easy, 10 AWG should handle 1.6kA for 10 seconds before fusing.
Water-cooled audiophool cables anyone?  >:D
Water-cooled TIG welding torch cables are only something like 8 to 10 AWG and good for 200...250 amps 
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #194 on: September 24, 2019, 01:44:47 pm »
current capacity, listed as 100 Amps [...] Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.

That's probably it.  Remember "music power" ratings?  I haven't seen those in a while.
Of course it is 100A PMPO, not RMS.
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Offline BradC

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #195 on: September 25, 2019, 03:22:59 pm »
Of course it is 100A PMPO, not RMS.
Here ya go then :
 
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Offline rrinker

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2019, 09:27:14 pm »
 Maybe that's a correct value - for DASS Frequency response. I dunno, I don't have any tools that can measure that.

That lower curve sure is weird though - what is that one supposed to represent? Double peaks down low, then off to infinity above 20K? Does that mean if I play high enough frequencies through this thing, dogs halfway around the world will perk up their ears?
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2019, 11:51:27 pm »
Unless the picture doesn't give the right sense of proportion, the speakers look pretty small. 20kW? Yeah sure. Maybe that's the amount of power this sucker draws, but probably not what you get out of it.  :-DD
 

Offline BradC

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #198 on: September 26, 2019, 02:15:14 am »
Unless the picture doesn't give the right sense of proportion, the speakers look pretty small. 20kW? Yeah sure. Maybe that's the amount of power this sucker draws, but probably not what you get out of it.  :-DD

No you'd be right. Also, those "speakers" have incandescent lamps in the center.
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #199 on: September 26, 2019, 08:18:29 pm »
There used to be a car booster amplifier for sale in the UK, it was common to find people selling them as 200 Watt graphic equaliser booster amplifier when all it contained were a couple of Phillips TDA1516* 2x12 Watt BTL chips.

Wyhen you found the importer's catalogue it was very clear what the output rating was, when you got the item the box was emblazoned with the model number all over the box but only had the spec in very small print on an inner leaf of the box.

The model number was 200W.

* I'm slightly amazed that I remembered the chip part number and spec so I went and googled it to check I was right, I did replace rather a lot of them because ~30 years ago I worked in a shop as a tech repairing all sorts of electronics and they were a really common chip, cheap but decent performance for the price.
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