Author Topic: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)  (Read 15188 times)

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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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I'm pleased to present the highest quality cable available to discerning electronics aficionados like yourselves.

I present to you, Masterbuilt Audio.

Discerning audiophile journalists at The Absolute Sound wrote a gem of an article linked below. I submit an excerpt:
Quote
The roots of MasterBuilt Audio can be found in the U.S. aerospace program, where these contractors developed wiring systems with low-reactance cable for use in the Apollo lunar missions and other NASA projects, such as the International Space Station. When the founder of MBA first chose to study metallurgy and electrical engineering, it was never his intent to design products for the high-end audio industry.
:popcorn:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/masterbuilt-audio-reference-cables/



Quote
MasterBuilt Ultra Line are the apex of audio cables.  Although extremely costly to produce, the performance is well worth the price to music lovers who own the world’s finest audio systems.  Your speaker cable is the final leg in the signal path of your system and can drastically affect the performance of components both in front and behind it,  regardless of quality.  Ultra Line Speaker Cables are the finishing touch in your quest to reproduce a simulation of live music in your home.

 

MasterBuilt utilizes a proprietary alloy made from precious metals developed by the U.S. aerospace industry to approach as close to a zero resistance state as possible.  The resistance of the Ultra Alloy is so low that a minute voltage pulse would travel through the cable without audible loss.  This trait is critical for use in speaker cables by providing purity of sound, image focus, and an incredible dynamic range.



If you own a world-class audio system and haven’t auditioned the Ultra Line of audio cables, you owe it to yourself to hear how these award winning cables will drastically improve your system.

SPECIFICATIONS
Outer Jacket:  High Density Thermoplastic Elastomer with Polyester braided sleeve

Construction:  Low EMF Hexagonal

Conductor Insulation:  Fluoropolymer

Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation

Conductors:  16 wires for single wiring & 32 wires for bi-wire; each group is suspended in an isolated housing

Gauge:  10 AWG per leg (Positive & Negative)

Cable Power Rating:  100 Amps max

Terminations:  German high performance copper alloy connectors

Finishes:  White (standard), Black (upon request)


Quote
AVAILABLE CONNECTIONS

BANANA

SPADE
SINGLE RUN
$23,000 - 2.5 Meter
$2,000 - Each Additional 0.5 Meter

BI-WIRE
$35,000 - 2.5 Meter
$3,000 - Each Additional 0.5 Meter

 :-BROKE

They're also happy to sell you IEC power cable for $17,000.
Pay attention to the amperage rating and gauge thickness.

Quote
IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT POWER CORDS:  Audiophiles should realize that the first component in the system is the power cord.  This “first component” must be distortion-free and able to conduct a very large amount of current and voltage into the component.  It is known that the musical signal consists of voltage and current sourced from the a.c. wall outlet, and the component simply “modulates” that power into a musical waveform. Inexpensive power cords that come with most components will add distortion or remove quality of the signal.  For that reason, a high quality and non-reactive cable should be used; once the signal has been corrupted, it is impossible to reverse this damage regardless of the quality of components that follow.

While incorporating the highest levels of MasterBuilt insulation and winding geometric technology, the Ultra Line have one significant advancement over all other lines by utilizing conductors made with a proprietary alloy from precious metals.  This super-pure transmission path provides a distortion free signal to your electronics that is unmatched and results in enormous levels of dynamic range combined with high resolution of fine detail. By installing Ultra Line power cords to a system, listeners are able to hear details never before experienced from their reference recordings.  Ultra Line are by far the apex of power cords and as such, belong in only the world’s finest systems!

POWER CORDS

Please specify IEC-A15 or IEC-A20
$17,000 - 1.5 Meter
$2,000 - Each Additional 0.5 Meter

SPECIFICATIONS
Outer Jacket:  High Density Thermoplastic Elastomer with Polyester braided sleeve

Construction: Low EMF Hexagonal

Conductor Insulation:  Fluoropolymer

Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation

Conductors:  17 (8 Hot, 8 Neutral, 1 Ground)

Gauge:  10 AWG per leg (Hot and Neutral), 12 AWG Ground

Cable Power Rating:  100 Amp Max

AC Power Connector:  α (Alpha) Pure Copper Rhodium plated conductor,

with Nano Crystal housing and Earth (ground) jumper system

IEC Connector:  α (Alpha) Pure Copper Rhodium plated conductor,

with Nano Crystal housing and Earth (ground) jumper system

Finishes:  White (standard), Black (upon request)
:scared:


The article about this cable dives off the deep end.

Quote
I replaced every cable in my system with an equivalent length and type of MasterBuilt Audio Reference. The full loom included four single-ended interconnects, one USB cable, one pair of bi-wire speaker cables, and nine AC cables. The retail price of the loom in this configuration was $70,775.

All cables take time to season and settle, but the MasterBuilt Reference cables seemed to require a longer run-in time than I’ve come to expect, even when using my cable cooker. As a reviewer who must routinely substitute cables and other components, I’ve invested in a cable burn-in device. The unit I own, the AudioDharma Cable Cooker 2.5 EFS, runs a continuous square-wave frequency sweep of about 1 VAC for interconnects and 22 VAC for speaker and power cables, oscillating from 0Hz (DC) to ≈ 40kHz, and back. Several days on this device is more effective than many weeks or even months of routine play. And in my estimation, it affords more effectual, not just more expedient, results that are unattainable by simply dropping the cables in place and playing your favorite burn-in material.

Yet even after being cycled through my cooker for what I have found to be the optimum period for most cables, the MBA References still took weeks after installation to offer their best. To be fair, I could have tossed them back on the cooker for another 12–18 hours, but I really wanted to hear them, so into my system they went. (Because such a cook-in device may require an expenditure that you don’t feel compelled to make, be certain to speak with your dealer about auditioning fully run-in cables in your system, as it makes a significant difference, particularly with this loom.)
I had some concerns early on, as the MBAs’ longer than usual run-in period initially left me wanting, until their abilities in revealing inner detail, microdynamics, and overall bloom and body fully developed. But mature they did over the next month to five weeks. Once they’d developed, I was offered remarkably good bloom with copious musical body, a crucial attribute that I find shamefully absent from several other pricey entrants.

After that final maturation, one of the first attributes to capture my attention was the MBAs’ ability to reach deeply into the nether regions of the bass, extracting detail and nuance with exceptional pitch definition. They created a solid sense of both the impact and skin tone from the kickdrum in the opening of The Eagles’ “Hotel California,” from the live Hell Freezes Over album [Geffen].

Audiophoolery taken to the next dimension over THAT song?!!!  :scared:
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 09:16:00 pm by Wan Huang Luo »
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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“Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation”

Meaning; 1% Copper, 99% Bullshit
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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That's... hilarious! :-DD
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Where's the gold?

Quote
Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation

Conductors:  16 wires for single wiring & 32 wires for bi-wire; each group is suspended in an isolated housing

Gauge:  10 AWG per leg (Positive & Negative)

Cable Power Rating:  100 Amps max

Terminations:  German high performance copper alloy connectors


AVAILABLE CONNECTIONS

BANANA

SPADE
SINGLE RUN
$23,000 - 2.5 Meter
$2,000 - Each Additional 0.5 Meter

BI-WIRE
$35,000 - 2.5 Meter
$3,000 - Each Additional 0.5 Meter

For that price I wouldn't want copper.

You might as well just buy a lot of gold blocks and do it yourself.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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For a while now I've felt unscrupulous people are trying to one-up each other and see how far they can push it before even the most fanatic audiophile gives up. That being said, you don't need to sell many of these cables to make the whole endeavour worthwhile. That probably explains why so many try to push these kinds of products.
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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The website is only a year old on Wix.com.

Charge a lot of money for the cables, talk about the aerospace program and put it up on Wix.com.

They don't talk about any gold.

Quote
Contact: info@vonschweikert.com

They have been making speakers for years:

https://web.archive.org/web/*/VonSchweikErt.com
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 12:57:00 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline rhb

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Mehh.   Cheap stuff.  I'm holding out for zero resistance superconductor cables.
 

Offline GregDunn

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And yet the numpty audiofools who buy this are probably using one of those $20,000 single-ended triode amps with 10% distortion at 5 Watts, fed by a phono cartridge with 2% distortion and no anti-skate correction.
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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And play hip-hop music with them.
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Here's a joke; A cable terminology designed to size up the audiofools in bed and swallow their savings whole.
 

Offline cdev

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NASA doesn't have anything like that. They don't waste money.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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NASA doesn't have anything like that. They don't waste money.
I'm pretty sure NASA has moderately reasonably built cables in their systems, because that's what these appear to be.
 
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Offline xrunner

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I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Online JackJones

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Mehh.   Cheap stuff.  I'm holding out for zero resistance superconductor cables.

I'll bet it doesn't take long for someone to start selling cables with a freezer attach to them.

"Our proprietary cooling technology developed by NASA for their breakroom hotdogs, cools the electrons below the noisy ambient temperatures for that cool and crisp sound!"

I can hear the money rolling in.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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I am always reminded of this video when I read something like Nasa or electron alignment in audio cables and most of it is in there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4#t=1m52s
Quote
"...trying to use scientific sounding words to make these cables sound like they're manufactured by Nasa."

Except this time from the contractors.

I thought contractors were there to build things cheaply and save money.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 05:13:00 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline m98

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You can buy actual aerospace qualified wires for 2-3 € per meter...
 

Offline station240

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“Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation”

Meaning; 1% Copper, 99% Bullshit

I agree with you on this.
I admit I was stumped by his claim, after all since when is copper coated aluminium proprietary ?
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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"There's a sucker born every minute"


It appears Audiophools are on a mission to beat that time   ;D


I did some quick math and it may be cheaper for an Audiophool to book their favorite artists to perform live in their lounge room, say once a month   :-// 

and just use standard kettle cords and figure eight speaker cable,
hidden under the carpet > strictly for 'aesthetic reasons' and so people and pets don't trip up on them
(and roll with that line every time religiously)  :phew:

 
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Offline Towger

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Just use 2 core HO7 flex as speaker cable.  Readily available in 1.5, 2.5, 4.0 and 6mm diameters.
 

Offline CJay

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The mains cable, is it even legal to sell?

Surely the earth conductor should be able to carry the full current from any short and as the live and neutral are 10AWG, it should therefore be at least that size too instead of 12AWG?
M0UAW
 

Offline CJay

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Oh, and if we are going to work out the most expensive wire, then may I present:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/audio-magic-ultimate-beeswax-shd-fuse?variant=2513608638493

$225 for 20mm of wire.

So, 2.5M of it would be a bargain at only $28,125 but that fails to account for bi-wiring which takes us to $56,250.

And then we need to think about multi-strand, so, let's assume a paltry 36 strands per cable:

36 x $28125 = $1,012,500

Oh, but there's two of them, a snip at $2,025,000.

Per speaker.

$4,050,000
M0UAW
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Does it qualify for free shipping?
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Does it qualify for free shipping?

I doubt that. If the company does things right, they should ship those cables in wooden boxes made out of precious woods. That can't be free! ;D
 
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Does it qualify for free shipping?

I doubt that. If the company does things right, they should ship those cables in wooden boxes made out of precious woods. That can't be free! ;D
Even better, they could offer a carrying case for these cables that are lined with the hides of critically endangered animals that have been harvested, uh.. unsustainably!
 

Offline Johnny10

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I am buying a Tesla and driving my signals across the living room.
Tek TDS7104, DMM4050, HP 3561A, Tek 2465A, HP8903B, DSA602A, Tek 7854, 7834, HP3457A, Tek 575, 576, 577 Curve Tracers, Datron 4000, Datron 4000A, Fluke 181 Nanovoltmeter, Dos4Ever uTracer, HP5335A, EIP534B 20GHz Frequency Counter, TrueTime Rubidium, Sencore LC102, Tek TG506, TG501, SG503, 1062LS101
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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I am buying a Tesla and driving my signals across the living room.

Great plan  :clap:

Just kit it out with the latest weaponry in case of another Audiophool Zombie Apocalypse  :scared:

 

Online bd139

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Oh, and if we are going to work out the most expensive wire, then may I present:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/audio-magic-ultimate-beeswax-shd-fuse?variant=2513608638493

$225 for 20mm of wire.

So, 2.5M of it would be a bargain at only $28,125 but that fails to account for bi-wiring which takes us to $56,250.

And then we need to think about multi-strand, so, let's assume a paltry 36 strands per cable:

36 x $28125 = $1,012,500

Oh, but there's two of them, a snip at $2,025,000.

Per speaker.

$4,050,000

What

The

Fuck

?!?!?!

Last time I actually had a hifi setup, my speaker cables were snipped off a drum of three core mains cable with the earth snipped off. Sounded great! Then again I don't have Ferengi ears.

Edit: I'm going to make a web site and try and sell some magic shit like this. I reckon I can sell dry spaghetti as a cable improvement to someone. Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 10:27:29 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline Synthtech

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Having worked in recording studios for a large part of my adult life I have to say the obvious - if the studios that the album was recorded, mixed and mastered in use ordinary industry standard cabling then why not use the same grade cabling when you play the record at home?

 

Online bd139

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I have actually asked that to someone who was a not too rich "high end audio" fanatic and he couldn't provide an answer.

He was also the sort of person who thought copying CDs had a serious quality degradation like taping a CD does.

Then again he was a law student and I was an EE student.
 

Offline RobK_NL

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Seriously, that Absolute Sound article sounds more like MasterBate to me.

And then ther's this gem:
Quote
by 2001 he noted that some of the most successful cable companies with extremely powerful marketing campaigns failed to employ even the most basic principles of signal transmission, with many making hyperbolic technological claims that to this day go unchallenged, much less substantiated. Because of his love of music and his growing dissatisfaction with a good number of cable companies he saw as being less than completely honest about their designs
:-DD
Tell us what problem you want to solve, not what solution you're having problems with
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Oh, and if we are going to work out the most expensive wire, then may I present:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/audio-magic-ultimate-beeswax-shd-fuse?variant=2513608638493


One of the most expensive fuses.

I wanted to find out what was in them.

I found some discussions about it at Audigoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergestic-black-fuse-vs-audio-magic-beeswax

Quote
perfectpathtech223
07-02-2017 5:21pm
I installed12 of the Audio Magic SHD fuses in our system, I spoke with Jerry at length before trying one. They are very labor intensive to make, he told me sometimes has to make 2-3 to get 1 right. I don't care for the price either, however they deliver the goods big time.

Are they really hand made?
I find that hard to believe.


Audio Magics Premier Bees Wax Super Fuse
https://www.audio-magic.com/audio-fuses.html
Quote
Nano-Liquid Premium Fuses
We are known for having the quietest, best-sounding fuses on the market today. When it comes to stopping noise, our innovative designs use a variety of tricks no one else does. We stop the elements from vibrating at 50-60Hz because this causes a lot of noise. This is accomplished by injecting the fuse with a proprietary liquid anti-vibration material that stops vibration in its tracks. Our Black Out mixture is also injected and neutralizes both internal and external EMI and RF waves.


I found this:
http://www.audio-horizons.com/index.html
Quote
In the three and a half years Audio Horizons has been in existence, it has developed among its customers an enthusiasm rarely matched in audio circles, as the over 900 posts on the Audiogon Discussion Forum attest (See "Audio Horizons TP 2.0").

Obviously Joseph Chow of Audio Horizon was very successful in his campaign of being cited over 900 posts at Audiogoon with his offers.

http://www.audio-horizons.com/pages/fuse.html
Quote
What Makes the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse" So Fine?
Without betraying proprietary information, let me note that the More Than a Fuse dramatically increases the impedance from 0.2 ohms to 10 ohms at 10 MHz, thus increasing high frequency noise-rejection fifty fold over that of a conventional fuse. As a result of this increased noise rejection, one can hear delicate extended high frequencies formerly swallowed up in noise.

And because the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse” also reduces ultra high frequency noise by up to 46 dB or more, a ratio 200 times that of a typical fuse, high frequency harmonic texture is heard against a dead quiet background with a level of detail and refinement so sweet, delicate, and with such presence and immediacy—well, it will make you smile.

We could tell you this fuse is the truest, the purest, the most refined, natural, detailed, extended, airy and transparent fuse you’ve ever heard, and we believe we would not exaggerate, but with fuses, as with cables, the proof is in the listening.

Quote
“At $117 each, these fuses are not only cost-effective, they are a bargain. A similar upgrade in the performance level of a preamplifier, for example, would cost several thousand dollars. Come ON, from a FUSE?!”

proprietary information
proprietary liquid anti-vibration material
Another bullshit excuse.

They have even got a 15 day trial and return for Audiogoon members
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse/post?highlight=%2BAudio%2BMagic%2BBeesWax&postid=1289322#1289322
Quote
davidpritchard720 posts
12-29-2015 2:44am

Audio Magic makes the $175 beeswax infused fuse for $175.00.
I can find no information about returning this fuse for refund.

Audio Horizon makes an audiophile fuse. Most are $117.00
They carry fuses up to 15 amps rated.
They offer a 15 day trial and return policy to established Audiogon members.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 02:49:23 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline David Hess

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Those guys are such pikers.  (1) I use 30 conductor ribbon cable with alternate wires in parallel to make a 4 ohm transmission line which lays flat under carpets.

(1) Piker - One who does things in a small way.
 

Online BradC

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I found some discussions about it at Audigoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergestic-black-fuse-vs-audio-magic-beeswax

Wow. Just wow. I think I lost 40 IQ points just reading that thread (and I don't really have that many to spare in the first place!).
 
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Offline xrunner

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Anyone can make money at this audio fool stuff. Just pick a simple part of the system say like the paint used on the cabinet or the feet or anything at all. Make up any sort of bull sh*t you want about how much your new _______ has better bass tones or use any of the stupid terminology you see them using. Take your money to the bank.
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline floobydust

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Braided loudspeaker cables were popular in the 1980's, I remember it killed many power amplifiers. I think the capacitance is too high, not that Sansui did well back then.
 

Offline raptor1956

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Having worked in recording studios for a large part of my adult life I have to say the obvious - if the studios that the album was recorded, mixed and mastered in use ordinary industry standard cabling then why not use the same grade cabling when you play the record at home?


Yes, and the same question for the vinyl lovers when the recorded source was likely digital.  If the source was digital in what way does vinyl reveal something not present in the original digital recording?


Brian
 
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Online BradC

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Yes, and the same question for the vinyl lovers when the recorded source was likely digital.  If the source was digital in what way does vinyl reveal something not present in the original digital recording?

That depends entirely on how it was mastered. If it was one of those "compress the crap out of it, master it for CD & Radio and then tweak it to not destroy the master on the lathe", then nothing. If it was more like the Beatles vinyl re-issues, where when the mastering engineer was asked "would you buy the CD or Vinyl", he replied "the vinyl, as that is what it was mixed and mastered for (even the re-masters)".

If I want to listen to Jean Michel Jarre I'll take the DDD mastered CD. If I want to listen to anything mastered pre-1983, I'll take the Vinyl rather than the re-compressed, re-eq'd peaky mush pushed out to CD down the track.

Horses for courses.
 

Online bd139

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I’ll take my over compressed shit over scratchy shit.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Offline IanMacdonald

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Wait a mo though, I reckon the way you fasten the cables to the wall has a bearing on sound quality too. My latest line of enriched uranium clips with antimagnetic titanium nails will cost you only $100,000 a box of three. When fitting, be especially careful to read the instructions on how to identify the vibrational nodes of the cable, and only clip to  the wall at those points.
 

Online bd139

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I was bored. So who's up for a kickstarter on my new product?

 
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Online BradC

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Wait a mo though, I reckon the way you fasten the cables to the wall has a bearing on sound quality too. My latest line of enriched uranium clips with antimagnetic titanium nails will cost you only $100,000 a box of three. When fitting, be especially careful to read the instructions on how to identify the vibrational nodes of the cable, and only clip to  the wall at those points.

You've done this before.
 

Offline CJay

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If I want to listen to Jean Michel Jarre I'll take the DDD mastered CD. If I want to listen to anything mastered pre-1983, I'll take the Vinyl rather than the re-compressed, re-eq'd peaky mush pushed out to CD down the track.

Nah, while I agree CDs are often completely different to the original vinyl reproduction that's nothing to do with the format, that's incompetent sound engineers dicking around with and ballsing up the mix to make it sound 'better' on CD when what they should be doing is leaving it the hell alone.
M0UAW
 

Offline MrMobodies

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I was bored. So who's up for a kickstarter on my new product?



Why not go onto Audiogoon and discuss it there I am sure they'd like it.
They can go hip-hop HOORAY! at it.
I'll be there watching.

I thought of a video I once saw and found it.
EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card


Weeks ago when I discovered Audiogoon and I thought of that video but couldn't find the card discussed there.
So I started a thread hoping that they would go crazy over the card but it turned out to be a poor attempt/disappointment as nobody responded.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/has-anybody-tried-the-sony-high-quarity-sound-microsdxc-memory-card

It is an Audiophile SDXC card and I was surprised that it wasn't already discussed on there.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 12:57:05 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline xrunner

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Wait a mo though, I reckon the way you fasten the cables to the wall has a bearing on sound quality too. My latest line of enriched uranium clips with antimagnetic titanium nails will cost you only $100,000 a box of three. When fitting, be especially careful to read the instructions on how to identify the vibrational nodes of the cable, and only clip to  the wall at those points.

Excellent! You have a bright and wealthy future in the industry!  :-+

I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Look at the boxes they come in:



They put the smaller one in the larger box and the larger one in the smaller box.
The white foam looks cheap which looks like the most honest things that the package has to offer.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 01:32:13 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline David Hess

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Braided loudspeaker cables were popular in the 1980's, I remember it killed many power amplifiers. I think the capacitance is too high, not that Sansui did well back then.

That is possible but if the output impedance of the amplifier is not properly controlled, just having the wrong length of speaker wire can cause the same problem.  Whether the cable is braided or not should not matter.

Typically an output network is required to decouple the low output impedance of the amplifier from the load at high frequencies to prevent destructive oscillation.
 

Offline CJay

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Braided loudspeaker cables were popular in the 1980's, I remember it killed many power amplifiers. I think the capacitance is too high, not that Sansui did well back then.

That is possible but if the output impedance of the amplifier is not properly controlled, just having the wrong length of speaker wire can cause the same problem.  Whether the cable is braided or not should not matter.

Typically an output network is required to decouple the low output impedance of the amplifier from the load at high frequencies to prevent destructive oscillation.

Zobel network I think?
M0UAW
 

Offline David Hess

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Braided loudspeaker cables were popular in the 1980's, I remember it killed many power amplifiers. I think the capacitance is too high, not that Sansui did well back then.

That is possible but if the output impedance of the amplifier is not properly controlled, just having the wrong length of speaker wire can cause the same problem.  Whether the cable is braided or not should not matter.

Typically an output network is required to decouple the low output impedance of the amplifier from the load at high frequencies to prevent destructive oscillation.

Zobel network I think?

A Zobel network is more for handling the reactance of the loudspeaker itself so it is part of the frequency compensation.  High frequency decoupling is provided by a low-Q inductor after the Zobel network.

Indeed, without the decoupling inductance, high frequency oscillation in the output stage can destroy the Zobel network.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Wait a mo though, I reckon the way you fasten the cables to the wall has a bearing on sound quality too. My latest line of enriched uranium clips with antimagnetic titanium nails will cost you only $100,000 a box of three. When fitting, be especially careful to read the instructions on how to identify the vibrational nodes of the cable, and only clip to  the wall at those points.
To deliver a sound that literally “blasts you away”, I presume that you are employing weapons grade U235 refined from former USSR stockpiles?
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Wait a mo though, I reckon the way you fasten the cables to the wall has a bearing on sound quality too. My latest line of enriched uranium clips with antimagnetic titanium nails will cost you only $100,000 a box of three. When fitting, be especially careful to read the instructions on how to identify the vibrational nodes of the cable, and only clip to  the wall at those points.
To deliver a sound that literally “blasts you away”, I presume that you are employing weapons grade U235 refined from former USSR stockpiles?

blasts you away.
To a point where the sound doesn't sound right according to one Audigoon... no wait it has to be burned in first by which time the other members think he's gone deaf.
 

Offline BrianHG

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I just discovered a way to multiply the value of these speaker cable's price by 10 fold, tie them to this cable burn-in-device for 1 year straight:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/i-wonder-what-effectively-does-this-audiophool-_cable-burn-in-device_/msg1328723/#msg1328723
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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I could burn them in in no time just use a pat tester or do it manually.

It'll be like smoke and mirrors but no magic inside.
 

Offline Whales

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Owner of three of those fuses here.  Don't believe what other people say, the yellow stuff appears to be non-polar.  Each fuse gets re-sealed to ensure the volatiles don't get out (it stinks -- don't open them, it ruins them!).

They definitely work.  I spent a bit more money on replacement leads for my unit (tip: gold plating is worth it), but I was lucky enough to get these fuses on special.  Price often gets discounted shortly after March, that's the quiet time of the year for them.

Since installing them: overshoot has significantly reduced and performance at DC is markedly better than before.  Current readings show performance is now much more heavily affected by cable AWG, ie they are giving me notable drop in internal ESR.  Can't recommend these fuses enough.

I only wish Extech was smart enough to have installed these things in the factory.  Would have been happy to pay the premium  :-+
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 11:21:10 am by Whales »
 
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Offline GregDunn

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When CDs came out, I couldn't unload my vinyl fast enough.  From discussions with some other tech types on some of the audio forums, it seems that many of the early transfers were done without added compression and those CDs still are considered among the best representations of the original master tapes.  Only situations where they uncovered original multitracks or better copies of the masters have provided a better sounding source for distribution - assuming they resisted the temptation to squash or overdrive the signal during the process.

The problems vinyl has are legion: cutting distortion + tracing distortion often exceeding 3-5%; frequency response which steadily deteriorates as linear speed of the groove decreases toward the center; fragile medium with no error correction; linear dependence on absolute and relative accuracy of the disc's motion.  I frequently have people tell me that they prefer the sound of an LP to a (properly mastered) CD; my response is "I can't stop you from preferring the multiple defects in the media, but don't tell me it's more accurate."
 
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Online bd139

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I did similar. And when I got my first iPod the CDs got ripped and sold.

Now it’s apple’s problem for £14.99/month which is far less than my CD bill was!
 

Online BradC

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(properly mastered) CD

I'll take one any day of the week over vinyl but they are not as easy to find as you might expect.
 
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Offline David Hess

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When CDs came out, I couldn't unload my vinyl fast enough.  From discussions with some other tech types on some of the audio forums, it seems that many of the early transfers were done without added compression and those CDs still are considered among the best representations of the original master tapes.  Only situations where they uncovered original multitracks or better copies of the masters have provided a better sounding source for distribution - assuming they resisted the temptation to squash or overdrive the signal during the process.

I have heard that early CDs often incorrectly had the RIAA equalization for vinyl records applied.
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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I have heard that early CDs often incorrectly had the RIAA equalization for vinyl records applied.

That would sound dreadful, and would I think be noticed and corrected quickly. A more common problem was that early CD players often used poor analog filtering techniques on the D-to-A converter output. That is why sound quality sometimes was worse than from a good vinyl turntable. Of course in those days all recordings started life as analog tape, and another problem was that CDs of existing music had to be mastered from old magnetic tape that had been in storage for years, whereas the pressings mastered when the tape was new didn't deteriorate significantly in storage.
 

Offline cdev

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Wonder if there have ever been any invitational events where audiophools were invited to compare these products in a blinded situation where they could not visually identify which ones were (or were not) being used.

In other words, a test to see if they could tell the difference between different kinds of speaker wire. I really doubt if they could, once you got above the really thin stuff.

Granted, I think that all other things being equal, thicker wire is better. The minimum size wire I use on my "real" stereo system is slightly bigger than most zip cord. Its maybe 14 or 16 gauge super thick zip cord. (Its also what I use on my bench supplies). And I also have some "monster cable" which I got for free.

Its basically just thick flexible copper wire. Its likely around 12 or 14 gauge. (Its hidden behind furniture so its a PITA to fish out)

I use these thick cables because my receiver can deliver a solid 100 watts per channel into even as little as a 4 ohm load.

I would be willing to bet money that even the most "discerning"  "audiophiles" could not tell the difference between something like it and any more expensive cable, no matter how thick or expensive, in a double blind comparison.

We all know this. They likely know it too. In private.

Dave - you could actually make this into an event. It would promote your brand as well as common sense, substance and sanity in audio technology.

Different cables would be compared, they could even bring their own $35,000 cables.

the only condition would be inclusion of some generic thick copper wire.

We would see if any differences could be discerned by them, the self-styled experts.

Or anybody else.

In order to give them the maximum benefit of the doubt, the speakers could also be any speakers of their choice.

They could bring their own speakers.

But, the wires would be hidden. It could be proctored by an impartial jury of engineers.

And the event should be videotaped.  This event would likely become a huge viral video.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 05:52:50 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Mind you, I was just looking at a roll of 'speaker cable' on offer in a DIY store, and I reckon spider silk would have a greater cross section. This is the opposite end of the problem; people who buy this stuff and put maybe 20 or 50 ohms in series with each speaker, then try the the audiophool stuff at $100 a metre, and report that it's a fantastic product.  Because in their case it DOES improve the sound quality. A lot.

Of course they could have achieved the same quality improvement with any decent piece of mains flex, but they don't know that.  :palm:
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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They would have to buy something like this for their mains cable:

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/nordost-valhalla-2-reference-power-cord-iec-uk-3-pin-plug


Edit:
Made in USA
That CE symbol on the IEC plug looks close enough to be a China Export.
A dead give away really.
Another picture that speaks for itself.

£4000 to £11000.

Specifications:
Nordost Valhalla 2, Reference Power Cord IEC - UK 3 Pin Plug
Length: Custom Length
Insulation: High purity class 1.1 extruded FEP
Construction: Dual Mono-Filament
Conductors: 7 x 16 AWG Solid-core
Material: 85 microns of silver extruded over 99.999999% OFC
Connectors: Gold-plated IEC Wall plugs: UK
Power Rating: 20 Amp
DC Resistance: 1.3 Ohms per 1000ft
Capacitance: 8.0pF/ft
Propagation delay: 91% Speed of light


Might as well just have it made out of gold somewhere
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 08:16:02 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Synthtech

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I want to buy those beeswax filled fuses for my multimeter. That way when I am not paying attention and set the meter to the wrong range and the fuse ruptures and blasts proprietary filling through the meter I won’t mind as everything will smell like honey.

And I get the bonus of my meter current range accuracy improving due to the better transfer characteristics of the fuse.
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Mind you, I was just looking at a roll of 'speaker cable' on offer in a DIY store, and I reckon spider silk would have a greater cross section.
Recently, I bough 100 m of two core 0,75 mm^2 cable.

A problem with it came to my attention after I cut off a decent chunk for a friend and a few days later he complained that the cable is crap and that he can't solder it. I took a piece, tried tinning it and it went well, no issues, so I talked to the guy and asked him what was the problem. After all, he's 72 and has been tinkering with electronics for a good part of his life, so apparently there was a problem. He said that the cable takes solder once, but never again. I asked him to repeat that.
So, I take the cable again, tin it (no problem) and try to solder two ends together, but nope, it doesn't work. The cable repels the solder and I was unable to make the joint. I've never seen such behavior before.
I tried the flame test, and sure enough, it's copper clad aluminium.

I bought it in an electronics store. I asked for 0,75 mm^2 speaker cable, so yeah, if somebody bought that crap expecting copper, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get the result one would expect. Or if they are used to that, a proper quality copper cable could make a difference.
 

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I brought some ten way server cabinets sockets and they came with 400- 700v 49 amp Titanex H07RN-F 3G4 cables on 4 pin BS4343 plug. The adaptors are big and won't look good where it is going and in space wise so I ordered some smaller 1.5mm H07RN-F 13A cables to wire to a plug.

When they arrive I will test the conductors under a flame just in case.

Maybe I can re brand the Titanex cables and sell it to the audiphools as I believe that is what they're doing.

I was looking back at something and just only noticed this post that I missed:
I found some discussions about it at Audigoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergestic-black-fuse-vs-audio-magic-beeswax

Wow. Just wow. I think I lost 40 IQ points just reading that thread (and I don't really have that many to spare in the first place!).

I am sorry.

Maybe I should have put a spoiler alert in.
 

Offline cdev

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It is unusual to find very thick, high current cables that are also flexible in the hand and connector-friendly. I would imagine that especially for somebody who does a lot of speaker demoing and switching having the right kind of cable and also the right (quick attach/quick release) ends attached to them is also important. 

Very thick but flexible wire,

Banana plugs or gold plated pins suitable for insertion in amplifiers and speakers, with clear and unmistakable color coding, thats a big enough improvement over plain wire that its worth putting some effort into making up a pair of speaker cables that do it.

 I would say that a nice pair of top quality speaker cables wired with nice plugs might be worth $20 to me. Significantly more than the parts cost unmodified.

So there we have a logical price.

How did we go from $20 to $35,000? Thats not just ridiculous, its totally over the top.

That much money could do so many much better things.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 11:14:31 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online bd139

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Honestly in this day and age we should have the amplifiers in the speakers (active speakers) and differential (at least) or digital signalling. Then you can run it over wet string.
 

Offline cdev

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Active speakers can sound really good. Because they can incorporate a feedback loop that corrects a lot of distortion.

Plus they are self contained.

Mackie makes nice freestanding active speakers. I think one plugs balanced XLR cables into them. They can run off a generator as well.

Honestly in this day and age we should have the amplifiers in the speakers (active speakers) and differential (at least) or digital signalling. Then you can run it over wet string.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline retrolefty

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Where's the gold?

Quote

  Oh come on, anyone knows that using real gold would impact their profit margin negatively.
 
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Online BradC

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Active speakers can sound really good. Because they can incorporate a feedback loop that corrects a lot of distortion.

I still have a pair of these stored somewhere. They did sound very good for their size. For whatever reason (cost probably), the concept never really caught on.

https://hifipig.com/philips-motional-feedback-speakers/
 

Offline cdev

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They still are very popular with musicians for studios. Look under "Studio Monitor".
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline CJay

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Typically an output network is required to decouple the low output impedance of the amplifier from the load at high frequencies to prevent destructive oscillation.

Zobel network I think?

A Zobel network is more for handling the reactance of the loudspeaker itself so it is part of the frequency compensation.  High frequency decoupling is provided by a low-Q inductor after the Zobel network.

Indeed, without the decoupling inductance, high frequency oscillation in the output stage can destroy the Zobel network.
Ah OK. I've seen them described in various ways but they've not been on my radar enough to thoroughly understand.

I've a pile of old audio/linear MOSFETs here which are earmarked for an audio amp 'when I get time' so I'll need some more reading to do I suppose.
M0UAW
 

Online bd139

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Also in an average transceiver, the zobel network can be used to absorb all the RF on the speaker wires to stop it getting back into the audio PA. Basically it presents a low impedance to RF. This can make some wild and unexpected noises, particularly with cheap crappy low stability LM386's etc.
 

Offline CJay

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Also in an average transceiver, the zobel network can be used to absorb all the RF on the speaker wires to stop it getting back into the audio PA. Basically it presents a low impedance to RF. This can make some wild and unexpected noises, particularly with cheap crappy low stability LM386's etc.

I almost hate those chips, I fail to understand why they are still so popular when there are so  many better alternatives.
M0UAW
 

Online bd139

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Monkey see. Monkey copy.
 

Online zucca

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Then again he was a law student and I was an EE student.

We EE can save and improve this planet. It's not a joke, we have a lot of responsability to stop those scammer sharks idiots. That said against stupidity there is no real treatment, yet.
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Offline MrMobodies

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We EE can save and improve this planet. It's not a joke, we have a lot of responsability to stop those scammer sharks idiots.

It is a land of milk and honey for the scammers.
They are already making beeswax fuses.

Quote
That said against stupidity there is no real treatment, yet.

There is some form of treatment depending on how you apply it.

1. Subjecting the Audiophools to a hearing test on such frequencies that they claim to hear.

2. Getting Dave to tear the cables apart an analyse it but who would be foolish enough to spend all that money on one in the first place to save the sanity of the these Audiophools.

3. We could ask the so called scammers if they would like to send their cables in to Dave for a tear down to prove that they are not scammers but I doubt it. They are likely to refuse and stick under their slithery proprietary bullshit excuse just like how the Master Built cable of the first poster of this thread slithers about in the picture.

4. Stick it on that Audigoon website and the likes.

Here's a joke: Managing to steal them for a teardown wouldn't be a bad idea as they are possibly not worth anything anyway especially when they have the China Export logos showing on them.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Also in an average transceiver, the zobel network can be used to absorb all the RF on the speaker wires to stop it getting back into the audio PA. Basically it presents a low impedance to RF. This can make some wild and unexpected noises, particularly with cheap crappy low stability LM386's etc.

I almost hate those chips, I fail to understand why they are still so popular when there are so  many better alternatives.

There's nothing wrong with cheap and simple amp chips. It's just they are only good for applications with a local/internal speaker. They aren't meant to run with long cables.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline floobydust

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Also in an average transceiver, the zobel network can be used to absorb all the RF on the speaker wires to stop it getting back into the audio PA. Basically it presents a low impedance to RF. This can make some wild and unexpected noises, particularly with cheap crappy low stability LM386's etc.

The Boucherot cell does work for differential-mode RF picked up by the xover inductors, within one channel.

But I find stereo loudspeaker wiring makes an excellent dipole antenna for common-mode RF, between the two (L and R) channels.
If you ever scope or RF spectrum analyzer on the loudspeaker outputs, you can see a lot of RF there, more so with MOSFET output stages.

This is the only science I have, as far as audible changes occurring with different audio cables and wiring.
I observe say AM radio station 680kHz with one set of cables, and another set of cables shifts tuning to between local AM stations and less RF interference is seen and heard as mostly "grit" or rectified/demodulated AM roaming around.  Not a lot of designers poke around for RF in audio designs.

The fix I use is clamp-on ferrite cores, instead of spending silly money on cables.
 

Offline CJay

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I almost hate those chips, I fail to understand why they are still so popular when there are so  many better alternatives.

There's nothing wrong with cheap and simple amp chips. It's just they are only good for applications with a local/internal speaker. They aren't meant to run with long cables.
Absolutely, there are plenty of nice, cheap, simple amp chips, my gripe is with the LM386 and its variants, they are nasty, unstable and noisy, there are many more small, cheap and modern amp chips that  perform better, are easier to make stable and require fewer components to work well.


M0UAW
 

Offline MrMobodies

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I was looking on Ebay for some more distribution sockets of a smaller size that I can mount under my desk.

Looks what I come across:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audiophile-Power-Mains-Distribution-unit-8-way-US-sockets-Excellent-condition/153268297455
Audiophile Power Mains Distribution unit 8-way US sockets Excellent condition
£350




Aircraft grade aluminium chassis with Gaofei rhodium-plated connectors.

·      Hand-wired with solid core copper wire
·      Gaofei rhodium-plated contacts standard IEC inlet (10 amps at 230 volts)
·      4 pairs for US mains socket outlets Gaofei rhodium-plated
·      Dimensions (WHD mm) 328 x 90 x 125
·      Maximum load 2300W at 230V

You'd find that anywhere.

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power-connectors-gaofei-iec.html


The IEC connector only costs £27 excluding VAT and $18 on Ali express
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Rhodium-plated-Gaofei-GF-RHO08I-IEC-AC-Inlet-socket-audio-grade/1158165466.html

Don't know what those US sockets are doing in the UK.

https://www.solidrop.net/product/gaofei-rbl-d20a-red-copper-rhodium-plated-ac-20a-power-receptacles-wall-outlet.html


They only sell them on Ali Express for $32.20 a piece.




The wires looks the same as ordinary solid core.

That is something that you can build yourself for tiny fraction of the price.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:38:07 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Online bd139

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Somewhere in China there's a guy who just bought himself a Tesla after selling those for a year :-DD
 

Offline xrunner

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Aircraft grade aluminium chassis with Gaofei rhodium-plated connectors.

I love rhodium.

I really love it - it's the coolest element ever!  :clap:
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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I almost hate those chips, I fail to understand why they are still so popular when there are so  many better alternatives.

There's nothing wrong with cheap and simple amp chips. It's just they are only good for applications with a local/internal speaker. They aren't meant to run with long cables.
Absolutely, there are plenty of nice, cheap, simple amp chips, my gripe is with the LM386 and its variants, they are nasty, unstable and noisy, there are many more small, cheap and modern amp chips that  perform better, are easier to make stable and require fewer components to work well.

Never had a problem with 386s, where did you get yours from? Of course, I got mine from the real Radio Shack store.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Quote
Looks what I come across:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audiophile-Power-Mains-Distribution-unit-8-way-US-sockets-Excellent-condition/153268297455
Audiophile Power Mains Distribution unit 8-way US sockets Excellent condition
£350

Those are trippy blue sockets, wonder where those came from.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline CJay

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Never had a problem with 386s, where did you get yours from? Of course, I got mine from the real Radio Shack store.

I've had them from RS Components, Farnell, Maplin, the local electronics shops (used to be blessed with three in my small home town) and I may even have bought them from the UK version of Radioshack, Tandy, at some point back in the mists of time.

To defend the chip a little, I've never managed to burn one up in anything I've 'designed' but I've seen loads in kits, homebrew and even commercial stuff that have had problems.

They serve a purpose and are cheap but there are plenty of more modern parts that perform better, are easier to use, less prone to oscillation, deliver more power (if it's needed) and have nice features like DC volume control...
M0UAW
 

Online bd139

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I’ve let the smoke out of a few. They still work while it’s coming out which is impressive.  :-DD

Main problems for me are the hiss (unless you apply one of the little tricks people worked out)  and the distortion. It sounds horrible. Fine for things like radios where the sound fidelity is crap anyway but not audio applications of a any kind.

They make reasonable “power opamps” though for low frequency stuff. I’ve used two of them to drive a motor for example.
 

Offline CJay

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I’ve let the smoke out of a few. They still work while it’s coming out which is impressive.  :-DD

Main problems for me are the hiss (unless you apply one of the little tricks people worked out)  and the distortion. It sounds horrible. Fine for things like radios where the sound fidelity is crap anyway but not audio applications of a any kind.

They make reasonable “power opamps” though for low frequency stuff. I’ve used two of them to drive a motor for example.

Not convinced about  LM386 being OK for radio, I don't see why you'd want to add more noise or make it sound worse when it sounds pretty bad anyway?

As for power op-amps, which ones are you using?

I've casually looked around for a replacement for the L165V, I miss that chip, it was a really good all rounder and sounded pretty good as a simple audio PA.
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Online bd139

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LM386 is only "ok" on HF where the noise floor is pretty high anyway. Adding more noise and distortion to the audio chain doesn't really make it much worse than it already is. When the JRC clones appeared, the cost benefit of the noise reduction of a better part wasn't really worth the trade off.

Some of the cheap TDA series amps work reasonably well as power opamp, particularly TDA2040. That has decent open loop gain of around 20 up to 10MHz (not bad for an audio amp!), are virtually impossible to blow up and don't have any phase inversion problems. I tend to use an MJE3055 / MJE2955 pair and a TS922 driving the pair as a follower however because they are useful independently as well.
 

Offline LapTop006

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Don't know what those US sockets are doing in the UK.

For people who want worse connections?

One of the nice things about UK sockets is, unlike US sockets, plugs don't tend to fall out and connections are generally much more solid. Australian plugs are mostly decent, as are some of the europlug variants.

At least for US folk (and others that use that plug, Japan, Canada etc.) the low voltage and often bad connectors does (sadly) justify some level of upgraded power connections, although of course that stops *WAY* below many of these things.
 

Offline cdev

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I totally agree. The AC power plug we have here in the US is not the best. It would make sense just as a short term fix, to invert it at least so that if a plug was not in all the way some conductive item falling from above would hit the ground first, and perhaps not bridge the contacts. At the very least the outlets should recess the plugs into the wall a bit more. That would be a backwards-compatible change.

So, since audio modules were brought up, what are people's opinions of audio amplifier modules that can be used to make a quick, basic audio amp for a work area?

 I may build it into a panel with some other stuff like a quick and handy power supply.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 02:56:28 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline CJay

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I totally agree. The AC power plug we have here in the US is not the best. It would make sense just as a short term fix, to invert it at least so that if a plug was not in all the way some conductive item falling from above would hit the ground first, and perhaps not bridge the contacts. At the very least the outlets should recess the plugs into the wall a bit more. That would be a backwards-compatible change.

So, since audio modules were brought up, what are people's opinions of audio amplifier modules that can be used to make a quick, basic audio amp for a work area?

 I may build it into a panel with some other stuff like a quick and handy power supply.
I like them, cheap and easy to use, the ones I use on the bench are TDA7297 modules, I've got a few TDA2030 modules too, I use those to replace fried audio amps when the original chips are obsolete.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-DC-6-18V-TDA7297-Digital-2x15W-2-CH-Audio-Stereo-Amplifier-Board-Module/292429885226?hash=item44162def2a:m:mOmOGx-4zbpjwlQ_843UrKg:rk:5:pf:1&frcectupt=true

They need a bigger heatsink but work well enough as supplied if you don't turn up the volume too much.
M0UAW
 
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Offline mnementh

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LM386 is only "ok" on HF where the noise floor is pretty high anyway. Adding more noise and distortion to the audio chain doesn't really make it much worse than it already is. When the JRC clones appeared, the cost benefit of the noise reduction of a better part wasn't really worth the trade off.

Some of the cheap TDA series amps work reasonably well as power opamp, particularly TDA2040. That has decent open loop gain of around 20 up to 10MHz (not bad for an audio amp!), are virtually impossible to blow up and don't have any phase inversion problems. I tend to use an MJE3055 / MJE2955 pair and a TS922 driving the pair as a follower however because they are useful independently as well.

Jeez bd, you pop up on the most interesting threads; now there's a whole 40 minutes of my life I'll never get back, all just because I made the mistake of trying to find a post of yours from a few days back...  :-DD

What I find hard to believe is that nobody here bothered to follow the rabbit-hole down to this shamelessly opportunistic website, which "product" was used to provide "supporting evidence" of the quality of these cables in the original article.  :palm:


https://www.thecablecooker.com

WARNING!

I recommend you don full close-quarters aggressive-engagement HazMat gear before proceeding; hip waders simply are NOT adequate with the frequency and velocity at which the badunka-dunk is flying over there.:-DD   If you are fully suited-up, I suggest you take a deep dive in the FAQ section; your life will never be the same.  :popcorn:

mnem
 

Offline MrMobodies

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A cooker to cook cables.
A device to burn them.
Fuses with beeswax in them.
Cables built by so called masters.
USA built Reference cables from China.

Sounds like an illusion.

What are they on?
 

Offline mnementh

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"A fool and his money are some party..."    :-DD

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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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What I find hard to believe is that nobody here bothered to follow the rabbit-hole down to this shamelessly opportunistic website, which "product" was used to provide "supporting evidence" of the quality of these cables in the original article.  :palm:
Thanks for bringing up the cable cooker. I bolded it in the original post but nobody else did. This stuff is :bullshit:  |O
Quote
Does longer conditioning time mean better performance? Can I over-Cook my cables? Will they be damaged in any way?   
Over-Cooking can reduce the performance, at least temporarily. The characteristics of this are a reduced or diminished soundstage and a dull, lifeless quality to the music. If this situation occurs, merely letting the cables physically rest, and settle, then putting them back in the music system to play for a few hours brings them back to their optimal performance level. Over-Cooking does NOT do any damage to the cabling whatsoever.
:-BROKE
 
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Here's a joke: To be fair there was just too much wankery to read especially for something that slithers around on the coach and I don't want to know where it's been or what has been done to it and they can stew it down on their "cooker" all they want.

Surprise surprise they also discuss it at Audigoons:
Spoilter alert: If your IQ is affected in anyway by reading this stuff better not read the thread or the quote below.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-own-an-audiodharma-cable-cooker

Quote
Anyone own an AudioDharma cable cooker?
wig802
03-15-2014 4:54pm
You will never hear how good your cables can sound if they're not cooked and demos will seem pointless without a cable cooker.

I've made many bad cable purchases and the cycle was broken a few years ago when a local audiophile friend cooked at least 4 pairs of IC/2 pairs SC and I couldn't believe my ears. Differences between cables are easily revealed...

Every quarter I recharge all of my cables to keep them at their optimum level. This is a piece of equipment that all serious music lovers need...

AudioDharma Cooker? It's more like AudioDrama.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 07:11:08 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Bassman59

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Honestly in this day and age we should have the amplifiers in the speakers (active speakers) and differential (at least) or digital signalling. Then you can run it over wet string.

I've owned a pair of Genelec 1031A active studio monitors for 22 years now. They're biamped with an active crossover. XLR analog in. Attached to the TV is a pair of the KRK RokIt 5 guys, also biamped with balanced input. And I got a pair of the $99 Mackie biamped powered monitors, because I designed a couple of audio things and when testing I didn't want to blow up the Genelecs. (I haven't blown up the Mackies, though.)

 

Offline Bassman59

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They have even got a 15 day trial and return for Audiogoon members
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse/post?highlight=%2BAudio%2BMagic%2BBeesWax&postid=1289322#1289322
Quote
davidpritchard720 posts
12-29-2015 2:44am

Audio Magic makes the $175 beeswax infused fuse for $175.00.
I can find no information about returning this fuse for refund.

Audio Horizon makes an audiophile fuse. Most are $117.00
They carry fuses up to 15 amps rated.
They offer a 15 day trial and return policy to established Audiogon members.

A 15-day free trial? Hmmm. Let's see what happens when the fuse has to, you know, do its primary job, which is to open in the event of a mains short ...
 

Offline Towger

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I can't help thinking that the bees wax in those fuses is far too yellow/orange looking.   In fact it looks more like ear wax.
 

Online BradC

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2018, 05:36:09 am »
I can't help thinking that the bees wax in those fuses is far too yellow/orange looking.   In fact it looks more like ear wax.

For the ultimate compatibility with your biological audio system.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2018, 06:01:59 am »
Wait, the Cable Cooker says it can do capacitors. So I can take my really old crusty and dead tube type paper and electrolytic capacitors and reform them? What do want the bet that the Cable Cooker would be cooked? >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2018, 06:53:13 am »

A 15-day free trial? Hmmm. Let's see what happens when the fuse has to, you know, do its primary job, which is to open in the event of a mains short ...

I didn't dig too deep because I could feel my brain overloading with all the bullshit but what I didn't see were any claims that the fuses complied with the relevant safety standards...
M0UAW
 

Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2018, 07:54:17 am »
I bet they smell nice when they rupture though  :-DD

 

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2018, 10:17:25 am »
I bet they smell nice when they rupture though  :-DD

I wonder if there's a market for homeopathic fuses, ylanylang for relaxing music, oil of evening primrose tincture for fans of music over 60 years old, Patchouli oil for music from the 60s and 70s...

(can't think of ylangylang without Billy Connolly, Let me through, I'm an aromatherapist popping into my head)
M0UAW
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2018, 05:37:28 pm »
I can't help thinking that the bees wax in those fuses is far too yellow/orange looking.   In fact it looks more like ear wax.

They should dig the wax out of their ears first.
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2018, 05:45:07 pm »
I can't help thinking that the bees wax in those fuses is far too yellow/orange looking.   In fact it looks more like ear wax.

They should dig the wax out of their ears first.
Million dollar audiophool idea not explored yet: High-end cotton swabs pre-moistened with nanotechnology biotech solvent. $150 for a sachet of three. Of course, they will certify that the cotton was harvested by discerning biologists and spun using a "relaxed" Susan. Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 05:46:57 pm by Wan Huang Luo »
 

Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2018, 06:39:41 pm »
Million dollar audiophool idea not explored yet: High-end cotton swabs pre-moistened with nanotechnology biotech solvent. $150 for a sachet of three. Of course, they will certify that the cotton was harvested by discerning biologists and spun using a "relaxed" Susan. Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.

It's a fantastic idea but I think it'd be far more fun to sell them pre-impregnated cotton buds, they could choose to condition their ears with the ear wax of famous and highly 'respected' audiofools so they experience the same acoustic delights as their 'heroes'
M0UAW
 
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2018, 06:45:27 pm »
Million dollar audiophool idea not explored yet: High-end cotton swabs pre-moistened with nanotechnology biotech solvent. $150 for a sachet of three. Of course, they will certify that the cotton was harvested by discerning biologists and spun using a "relaxed" Susan. Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.

It's a fantastic idea but I think it'd be far more fun to sell them pre-impregnated cotton buds, they could choose to condition their ears with the ear wax of famous and highly 'respected' audiofools so they experience the same acoustic delights as their 'heroes'
One swab to clean them all,
One swab to condition them,
One swab to wax them all,
And in the darkness bind them
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2018, 07:15:03 pm »
Million dollar audiophool idea not explored yet: High-end cotton swabs pre-moistened with nanotechnology biotech solvent. $150 for a sachet of three. Of course, they will certify that the cotton was harvested by discerning biologists and spun using a "relaxed" Susan. Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.

One swab to clean them all,
One swab to condition them,
One swab to wax them all,
And in the darkness bind them

Waxative free swabs and cotton buds with nanotechnology biotech solvents, Proprietary formula.
All cryogenically frozen.
Comes in special casings made of special precious laboratory metals.
See our demo featuring relaxed Susan.
Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.


Any ideas for a cooker to go with it?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:23:29 pm by MrMobodies »
 
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2018, 09:30:42 pm »
Million dollar audiophool idea not explored yet: High-end cotton swabs pre-moistened with nanotechnology biotech solvent. $150 for a sachet of three. Of course, they will certify that the cotton was harvested by discerning biologists and spun using a "relaxed" Susan. Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.

One swab to clean them all,
One swab to condition them,
One swab to wax them all,
And in the darkness bind them

Waxative free swabs and cotton buds with nanotechnology biotech solvents, Proprietary formula.
All cryogenically frozen.
Comes in special casings made of special precious laboratory metals.
See our demo featuring relaxed Susan.
Trial offer for Audiogoon members, only $125 for the first fifteen orders.


Any ideas for a cooker to go with it?
The swab shafts are carefully arranged and precisely spaced on either side of a hollow inner core in order to provide a perfect mechanical interface along the length of the swab. The meticulous layout of the gold-pressed cotton buds minimizes skin effect and reduces damping, while the meticulously formulated solvents reduce internal microphony. These swabs can be 'pre-charged' before use by moving them back and forth inside our ferrite ring, included with our compliments with your first purchase.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2018, 01:08:22 pm »
Do it! Hopefully, they'll all stab their eardrums out with them and we won't have to worry about them anymore. >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2018, 03:48:26 pm »
Do it! Hopefully, they'll all stab their eardrums out with them and we won't have to worry about them anymore. >:D

I think one already went deaf.

I re-quote from Audiogoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cannot-find-perfect-sound/post?postid=1643618

Quote

Cannot find perfect sound
Nutkenjit
09-21-2018 10:47pm

I've been listening to supposedly some of the finest speakers that currently exist. These include b&w 800 Series, revel high end, vivid audio, Psi audio and kef blades.
They must have excellent hearing and I wonder if they would submit themselves to hearing tests to confirm how good their hearing is to notice the difference.

Quote
Nutjim204
09-21-2018 10:55pm
I think one because they are probably a centimetre from your ear drum and two they are blasting may100 db as well and maybe they have damaged your eardrums so much that you now can't differentiate good from bad. Them earbuds'll do it every time.


Somewhere up the thread and their hearing is going to or on Dire Straits:

Quote
Nutpcc677
11-03-2018 1:48pm
Elizabeth,  I totally agree. I have noticed many recordings are crap. So I set up playlist of music that sounds the best to me. Dire straits,  Diana krall and quite a few others.

So it is the recordings that are crap and not your ears?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 04:01:08 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2018, 04:59:22 pm »
Actually had a look at that forum. Comedy gold in there. You could troll them so easily.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2018, 05:15:46 pm »
Actually had a look at that forum. Comedy gold in there. You could troll them so easily.

I did post something on Audiogoon but got no response:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/has-anybody-tried-the-sony-high-quarity-sound-microsdxc-memory-card

Quote
Has anybody tried the Sony High Quarity Sound microSDXC memory card?
mrgoon
11-05-2018 11:57am

I see them going on Ebay and Amazon and want to know if anyone here has brought one and tried it.

I am looking to make my sound sound better with my MP3 players and car audio.

So please let me know your thoughts.

It was to do with the EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card.

Surprised not to see them talking about it and I'd though they would go crazy over mentioning it but it was a disappointment.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 05:23:13 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2018, 10:16:47 pm »
Ahhahhahaha give it a few hours. They are probably polishing their cables with beeswax :D
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2018, 10:40:45 pm »
Ahhahhahaha give it a few hours. They are probably polishing their cables with beeswax :D

After I read that I suffered from a fit of laughter and nearly choked on it.

I know my Audiogoon thread is some weeks old and still no reply but that comment is one of best comments ever.
Wouldn't surprise me if they are still polishing their cables with Beeswax.

I know a good marketing brand name you can use to make and sell things to the Audiogoons and it is called Phools Gold.
But no gold in it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 10:47:57 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2018, 08:38:25 pm »
Awww, come on... you should at least pony up for a few microns of gold plating...  >:D

mnem
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Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2018, 08:48:22 pm »
Have to mention this year's RSGB April fools. Having a bit of a stab at the idea here as well I think. They added this to their store and advertised it in Radcom:



Brown with glitter. No coincidence I suspect!  :-DD
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2018, 09:19:47 pm »
Comes precooked for those who don't own an oven.

You can offer them in casings made out of marbles as they could do with a few.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 09:24:55 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2018, 02:59:53 am »
Have to mention this year's RSGB April fools. Having a bit of a stab at the idea here as well I think. They added this to their store and advertised it in Radcom:



Brown with glitter. No coincidence I suspect!  :-DD

That's copperslip, sadly it's probably not  OFC, nor will it have been treated cryogenically so unless you store the pot on acutely aligned obsidian pyramids it will make your SWARRRR worse, not better and may lead to phasic misalignment on LSB.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:02:00 am by CJay »
M0UAW
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #121 on: December 03, 2018, 03:10:06 am »
That's copperslip, sadly it's probably not  OFC, nor will it have been treated cryogenically so unless you store the pot on acutely aligned obsidian pyramids it will make your SWARRRR worse, not better and may lead to phasic misalignment on LSB.

True, but the effect can be offset by implantation of de-nuetralized silver and then coated with phosphoric-implanted and clean-room prepared platinum. This procedure should be performed in a Zero-gravity area for best results, although it may yield an increase in performance without this step.
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2018, 07:42:17 am »
I made these 10awg speaker wires the other day, may have $13 in parts total per cable pair in them.  I bet if I spent more money they would sound better  |O

 

Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2018, 08:11:11 am »
Now fire up the marketing brain and sell them for $10k a aet  :-DD
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2018, 08:20:02 am »
Now fire up the marketing brain and sell them for $10k a aet  :-DD

I've seriously considered it, but I have a conscience.
 

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2018, 08:33:35 am »
If someone can afford $10k on a set of cables then you’re doing a public service taking their money away so it isn’t used on other crazy things like ammunition and guns  :-DD
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2018, 09:23:35 am »
Oh, and if we are going to work out the most expensive wire, then may I present:
https://highend-electronics.com/products/audio-magic-ultimate-beeswax-shd-fuse?variant=2513608638493

 :o



"extremely difficult to build considering Audio Magic is drilling into both sides of the fuse"

This sounds like they buy standard hollow 19 cent glass fuses, then drill holes and fill it with something, really bees wax? And then print a label on it. I don't care if audiophools buy a $1 million speaker cable, but manipulation a fuse in such a way might be a fire hazard and even illegal to sell. Someone should buy it, test it professionally, and then sue the company who sells it.
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Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2018, 01:34:13 pm »
Very true. I might ask them about their CE approval  :-DD
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2018, 11:25:58 pm »
Here is a closeup:


It seems have got two powdery things and some kind of liquid in the middle.

I wonder if that stuff can become conductive and it prevents the fuse from blowing in normal circumstances.

If it does blow up the Beeswax will hit the "fans".
 

Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #129 on: December 10, 2018, 12:27:39 pm »
Here is a closeup:


It seems have got two powdery things and some kind of liquid in the middle.

I wonder if that stuff can become conductive and it prevents the fuse from blowing in normal circumstances.

If it does blow up the Beeswax will hit the "fans".
That's insane, they've recycled standard fuses and filled them with their bullshit magic formula.

I wonder if the original manufacturer can be determined?
M0UAW
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #130 on: December 10, 2018, 01:47:24 pm »
I wonder if the original manufacturer can be determined?

From the closeup photo are the Verband Deutscher Electrotechniker (Germany - VDE) & Svenska Elektriska Materielkontrollanstalten (Sweden - SEMKO) approval marks, otherwise the numbers look to be IEC127.

Searching for more images just makes me think they probably buy a box of "whatever" from a wholesaler. Before modification they're almost certainly decent fuses that meet their specs.
 
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Offline taydin

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #131 on: December 10, 2018, 02:17:36 pm »
I'm really curious to know how many of those $35K cables were sold ... If it's a one man operation, just 5 a year would be enough  ;D
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #132 on: December 10, 2018, 02:29:34 pm »
I suspect they are selling at least a few per year. You can find one of those ridiculous mains cable on eBay, if it is not a sock puppet account of the manufacturer. And the MasterBuild website lists many distributors, the Nordost website even more: Just for Germany they list one distributor, and 59 dealers. Looks like there are really some fools out there who buys this stuff.
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #133 on: December 10, 2018, 03:45:36 pm »
I wonder if the original manufacturer can be determined?

From the closeup photo are the Verband Deutscher Electrotechniker (Germany - VDE) & Svenska Elektriska Materielkontrollanstalten (Sweden - SEMKO) approval marks, otherwise the numbers look to be IEC127.

Searching for more images just makes me think they probably buy a box of "whatever" from a wholesaler. Before modification they're almost certainly decent fuses that meet their specs.

I think these things need to be brought to the attention of whatever local body monitors electrical safety standards in your country.
M0UAW
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #134 on: December 11, 2018, 06:15:18 am »
I suspect they are selling at least a few per year. You can find one of those ridiculous mains cable on eBay, if it is not a sock puppet account of the manufacturer. And the MasterBuild website lists many distributors, the Nordost website even more: Just for Germany they list one distributor, and 59 dealers. Looks like there are really some fools out there who buys this stuff.

Looking at the feedback it seems he buys from China and sells things as well as those cables.



It is a cable and it is going to be plugged in most to all of the time so why bother putting a lock on it and why would anybody want to steal that peace of crap anyway and if they did they'd just smash the box open.

Or is it so precious it is intended not to be used at all but to be kept in there like a piece of jewellery for sentimentalists except this one does not have got any gold in it.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:21:50 am by MrMobodies »
 

Online bd139

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #135 on: December 11, 2018, 08:03:21 am »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2018, 08:59:02 am »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
Everybody knows that wooden ferrite cores on power cables give you much more airy and natural timbre midtones with crisp and warm lows, but without the obvious sibilant and harsh highs you get with actual ferrite.
Furthermore, it strikes a positive balance with the natural wood the speaker enclosures are made from, resulting in lush and harmonious listening experience. They actively help in reducing noise in the mains, caused by outside factors, by adding positive mass to the cables themselves and enhancing the overall audio system.
Wooden ferrite cores likely have the highest cost/benefit ratio you could possibly invest in, and are a must for every serious and discerning audiophool.

I have a few in my shop, if you're interested. They're on Christmas season discount and usually sell for only $750, but with a 20% off coupon you can get them for $600.


How many do you think I would sell if I posted this on an audiophool forum?
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #137 on: December 11, 2018, 10:48:35 am »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
Everybody knows that wooden ferrite cores on power cables give you much more airy and natural timbre midtones with crisp and warm lows, but without the obvious sibilant and harsh highs you get with actual ferrite.

Surely you mean 'natural timber'?
M0UAW
 
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Offline Domagoj T

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #138 on: December 11, 2018, 11:01:01 am »
I was actually debating with myself which one to use, but opted for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre
Can't be fooling around here, can I? This is serious stuff. Lot's of money involved.
Although it would be funny if the core screamed "TIMBER!!!" at random intervals.

Inclusion of "highest cost/benefit ratio" should be enough of a pun.
 
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2018, 02:59:57 pm »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
Everybody knows that wooden ferrite cores on power cables give you much more airy and natural timbre midtones with crisp and warm lows, but without the obvious sibilant and harsh highs you get with actual ferrite.

Surely you mean 'natural timber'?
Natural timber timbre midtones.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2018, 06:31:56 pm »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
Everybody knows that wooden ferrite cores on power cables give you much more airy and natural timbre midtones with crisp and warm lows, but without the obvious sibilant and harsh highs you get with actual ferrite.

Surely you mean 'natural timber'?
Natural timber timbre midtones.

Pine for Bjork, Oak for British music, Sequoia for American, Maple Canadian etc..
M0UAW
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2018, 09:29:47 pm »
I usually follow the musings of Paul McGowan at his company's (PS Audio) channel on youtube. He has some good takes, but I was put off by one of his videos where he talks about the green pen and the performance mains cables sold by his company.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2018, 10:17:21 pm »
Is that a wooden ferrite core on that lead?  :-DD
Everybody knows that wooden ferrite cores on power cables give you much more airy and natural timbre midtones with crisp and warm lows, but without the obvious sibilant and harsh highs you get with actual ferrite.

Surely you mean 'natural timber'?
Natural timber timbre midtones.

Pine for Bjork, Oak for British music, Sequoia for American, Maple Canadian etc..




Let's not forget the Maple and Mahogany wooden ferrite core plug-ons when listening to guitar based AOR tunes  8)

Besides the obvious timbre/timber benefits, the wooden ferrite acts as an electrical isolation barrier

especially in harsh hi-fi placement situations like on a polished wood floor with steel frame underneath of unknown grade,
added with the conflicts of deploying dissimilar weld joint and fastener metals used by clueless builder/tradies who can't appreciate a proper listening environment for hip hop and Bach mashups   

------------------

BTW: I motion/vote that from this day forth ALL audiophool product peddlers chip in and contribute a regular HUGE Patreon donation to EEVblog Inc.  :clap:
for the massive amount of technical information and jargon presented across many posts here, unashamedly 'borrowing' and using in their ad spins.

i.e. it's not fair that DJ picks up the blog server tab every month  :'(  while they fill up carpet bags with easy cash.  >:D

Hey, we know you're here lurking and copy-pasting.
And we know you use plain figure 8 for speaker cabling, used 50 cent swap meet IEC kettle cords and $2 shop RCA cables in your personal hi-fi rigs.
Try and tell it different =  :bullshit:

Enough is enough > it's time to dig deep and share the reaped benefits from the wood ducks

What say all those present here?  :-//


« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 11:13:02 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline rhb

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #143 on: December 12, 2018, 02:56:14 am »

 I only buy audio components which are perfectly impedance matched over the entire range from 5 Hz to 100 KHz.

Thus I require that any commercial audio cables I purchase  include a test report using a Keysight E5061B-3L3 with the 1E5 High Stability Timebase option from 5 Hz to 100 KHz for the serial number of the cable as well as the NIST calibration certificate with data and uncertainties for the most recent calibration of the E5061B.

After all, a person cannot be too careful.  Your ears are irreplaceable.  Just think of the damage that poor quality audio components can cause.  I am shocked at the utter disregard of certain forum members to this vitally important issue.
 

Offline Canis Dirus Leidy

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2018, 08:10:33 am »
I'm really curious to know how many of those $35K cables were sold ...
Well, I sincerely hope that no one. Because the cable for a modest $ 7,000 was enough to cause this: https://www.amazon.com/review/R3I8VKTCITJCX6  :-DD
 
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #145 on: December 12, 2018, 01:21:44 pm »
At least there is no "verified purchase" review. But I guess the persons who buy such a cable don't use Amazon, they are too busy swimming in their money, and their servants buy this for them from special audiophool shops :)
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #146 on: December 12, 2018, 02:16:38 pm »

 I only buy audio components which are perfectly impedance matched over the entire range from 5 Hz to 100 KHz.

Thus I require that any commercial audio cables I purchase  include a test report using a Keysight E5061B-3L3 with the 1E5 High Stability Timebase option
That would require a cable manufacturer to spend as much as they charge for a speaker wire. Unacceptable capital investment.  ;D
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2018, 10:35:50 pm »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #148 on: December 14, 2018, 11:22:45 pm »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

As long as you prep the ends with sandpaper and some Deoxit (or metho or WD40 to go the full frugal route) coathangers can sound quite airy and detailed even with the .5 ohm resistance added  :clap:

Another plus is the convenience to easily disable one of the speakers temporarily
if you get locked out of your car  ;D
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2018, 04:34:01 pm »
coathangers can sound quite airy and detailed

I find that using them leads to too many hanging notes.
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #150 on: December 15, 2018, 08:54:32 pm »
Here's a joke:

I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.

No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.

An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.

A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2018, 09:22:38 pm »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Coat hangers made my system sound woolly.
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2018, 12:25:12 am »
I like the part where they used Coat Hangers and the "Audiophiles" could not tell the difference;
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2018, 01:57:20 am »
Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".

A computer magazine did such a test 18 years ago. The test setup: they used 17 different music pieces, and people had to listen to 1 minute CD quality first, then either 128 kbit/s MP3, 256 kbit/s or the same CD quality again, for 1 minute. So it was a A/B test. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into the details if it was a double-blind test, but I guess they knew what they were doing. The conclusion: nobody could hear a difference between CD quality and 256 kbit/s MP3, the 256 kbit/s MP3 was classified as CD quality as often as the CD quality test. But some people could hear a difference between 128 kbit/s MP3 and CD quality. But again, for some music, people thought the 128 kbit/s MP3 was better than the CD quality.

I think maybe an even better test setup than A/B is the ABX test, executed as double blind trials as well: "A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B.". The statistical results are less ambiguous than the concept with the arbitrary point system used by the computer magazine test. But I guess audiophools would argue that the relays used to switch the speaker cables influenced the sound, or other silly arguments. BTW, I think using mechanical relays could be a problem, because you could potentially hear different click sounds for different audio paths. Should be well shielded or very quiet relays.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2018, 05:35:54 am »
Here's a joke:

I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.

No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.

An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.

A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.


I'd advise stubborn AFers to get the ear wax fudge flushed out first,
especially if the sound is no longer as airy as it was when they first used the $ $ $ $ $ $ speaker wire,
and some blab on how a wax clean improves the ears audio convection ( :bullshit:) to get their attention,
because the facts and A-B blindfold comparison mashup is obviously Verboten City   

Advice that will most likely go in one ear, and out the ? ? ? anyway...  :horse:



« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 05:41:57 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2018, 05:57:00 am »
Audiofools hate double-blind tests because it exposes their nonsense beliefs to scientific scrutiny.  I participate on a forum where DBT has been used quite a lot to compare lossy audio to lossless - another embarrassment to the so-called "golden ears".

A computer magazine did such a test 18 years ago. The test setup: they used 17 different music pieces, and people had to listen to 1 minute CD quality first, then either 128 kbit/s MP3, 256 kbit/s or the same CD quality again, for 1 minute. So it was a A/B test. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into the details if it was a double-blind test, but I guess they knew what they were doing. The conclusion: nobody could hear a difference between CD quality and 256 kbit/s MP3, the 256 kbit/s MP3 was classified as CD quality as often as the CD quality test. But some people could hear a difference between 128 kbit/s MP3 and CD quality. But again, for some music, people thought the 128 kbit/s MP3 was better than the CD quality.

I think maybe an even better test setup than A/B is the ABX test, executed as double blind trials as well: "A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the first reference, and sample B, the second reference) followed by one unknown sample X that is randomly selected from either A or B. The subject is then required to identify X as either A or B.". The statistical results are less ambiguous than the concept with the arbitrary point system used by the computer magazine test. But I guess audiophools would argue that the relays used to switch the speaker cables influenced the sound, or other silly arguments. BTW, I think using mechanical relays could be a problem, because you could potentially hear different click sounds for different audio paths. Should be well shielded or very quiet relays.

Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening. 

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.
 
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Offline mrz80

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Oh good LORD ALMIGHTY but my head hurts after reading the ad copy (and ESPECIALLY after reading the TAS excerpt) at the head of this thread!  |O |O |O  I've been sitting on the edge of the audio world since I was a little kid, watching it all go down, and the capacity of the human animal to lie to himself and believe it just goes beyond all bounds in this environment.



I used to go round-and-round with a coworker who's a degreed electrical engineer and REALLY ought to KNOW better about the whole cables thing. Ah well, he doesn't have kids so it's not like he's squandering anyone's inheritance...  ::)

I am **SO** glad my granddad (one of the pioneers of this once respectable, now misbegotten environment) did not live to see the reasoned, conservative, well-engineered approach to high fidelity audio reproduction so marginalized by a group of people, companies, and magazines that make Amar Bose look like a pillar of moral rectitude and truth in advertising!  :palm:

[edit]  Oh, and for those who want to start a rational discussion about wire with someone who might NOT be too far gone to rescue from drinking the snake oil... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 09:24:39 pm by mrz80 »
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Do it! Hopefully, they'll all stab their eardrums out with them and we won't have to worry about them anymore. >:D

I think one already went deaf.

I re-quote from Audiogoon:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cannot-find-perfect-sound/post?postid=1643618

Quote

Cannot find perfect sound
Nutkenjit
09-21-2018 10:47pm

I've been listening to supposedly some of the finest speakers that currently exist. These include b&w 800 Series, revel high end, vivid audio, Psi audio and kef blades.
They must have excellent hearing and I wonder if they would submit themselves to hearing tests to confirm how good their hearing is to notice the difference.

Quote
Nutjim204
09-21-2018 10:55pm
I think one because they are probably a centimetre from your ear drum and two they are blasting may100 db as well and maybe they have damaged your eardrums so much that you now can't differentiate good from bad. Them earbuds'll do it every time.


Somewhere up the thread and their hearing is going to or on Dire Straits:

Quote
Nutpcc677
11-03-2018 1:48pm
Elizabeth,  I totally agree. I have noticed many recordings are crap. So I set up playlist of music that sounds the best to me. Dire straits,  Diana krall and quite a few others.

So it is the recordings that are crap and not your ears?

No idea, I recently picked up a pair of second hand LG LHS-W75TAF (6ohm, 200watt) speakers to pair with my audio unit (4-16ohm, 65watt), both seem to sound fine, though even my non-expert hearing makes me want to find out just what is inside the speakers, as I'm not sure if they are working correctly (When I pass below the mid plane of the speaker towers the sound is 'above' me.) I seriously doubt any audiophile would be able to tell much more than that.
 

Offline mrz80

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2019, 08:52:25 pm »
Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening.

That has been my experience as well. In a pristine audio environment maybe I *might* discern audible degradation in a 128k MP3 vs the source, but in the real world, noisy kitchen/living room at home, the zoo-like cubefarm at work, or God help us all the car, it's a non-issue. Compression artifacts are totally swamped by lousy car speakers and environmental noise.  ::)

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.

Ah, the South West Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society!  I remember seeing that name in old Audio Amateur magazines. Are they still a going concern? I sure hope so, if  just for the name!  :-+ :-+
Roger Russell describes a similar setup that Gordon Gow used to use during his lectures on the ins and outs of speaker cable.  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow  :popcorn:
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Offline electromotive

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I expect better screen printing for $35,000. It's not even embossed.
 

Offline Zenith

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I expect better screen printing for $35,000. It's not even embossed.

It's tempting to call you a Philistine, but anyway, it's clear you just don't understand. I shall attempt to educate you, although I feel it's a lost cause.

When assembling a top end speaker cable system like this, each part has to be carefully auditioned, not just for it's own merits, but for its ability to work cooperatively and complement other parts of the system. The lettering is not just an identification, it was chosen for its acoustic competence as well as its nominal role, and is workmanlike but is not merely functional.There is something of the artist about it, taking pride in its work and willingly going the extra mile, but it resists being a prima donna, a trap gold embossed lettering can easily fall into. It forms part of an exquisitely balanced team which can not merely cope, but excel with any programme material, Heavy Metal, Chamber Music, Gregorian Chant, Blues, and can make the best of any source, even making up for the glaring deficiencies of being matched with budget (sub $10,000) components. It plays its part in a whole which is definite without being overly insistent, and precise, but avoids straying into being boringly pedantic. It greatly adds to the presence. It plays a full and positive part in a very musical but restrained component system which many would describe as frighteningly revealing - especially about the sanity of anyone tempted to buy it.

Sorry about that. This thing is nonsense on stilts. Still maybe it's only jousting for silliness with audiophile mains leads of any sort - shouldn't purchasers also have their house wiring redone in at least solid silver cable?

I suppose on balance, this audiophoolery is a good thing. There's a demand and a market created and I doubt many kids are going to school barefoot because of it.

 
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Offline Pluscrafter

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“Conductor Material:  U.S. laboratory grade precious metal alloys, proprietary formulation”

Meaning; 1% Copper, 99% Bullshit

I agree with you on this.
I admit I was stumped by his claim, after all since when is copper coated aluminium proprietary ?
For this price a gold plated platin wire would be appropirate.

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Offline Stuart Coyle

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I'm an amateur beekeeper. Maybe I can sell my pure organic oxygen-free Italian queen Manuka beeswax to them to make fuses with.
I will only charge $25000 per kilogram.
 

Offline grifftech

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it probably sounds better than $0.01 per meter
 

Offline GregDunn

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Yes, the ABX test is a superior scientific tool to perform DBT and that's what I use for audio codec evaluations.  In fact, a proper ABX test allows the user to select the material, the actual sample length and location, and run an unlimited number of selections before choosing each instance.  At least (I think) 16 instances per test should be conducted in order to exclude random choice to a <5% level.  Properly designed, it eliminates nearly all possible objections to the accuracy of the test.  Just FYI, I can barely tell 128K lossy from a lossless source on high quality material; the total test (I only managed 10 instances) lasted half an hour and was quite tiring because I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It would have been entirely adequate for casual listening.  I'm pretty sure 192K or higher would be completely transparent for me, even with critical listening.

That has been my experience as well. In a pristine audio environment maybe I *might* discern audible degradation in a 128k MP3 vs the source, but in the real world, noisy kitchen/living room at home, the zoo-like cubefarm at work, or God help us all the car, it's a non-issue. Compression artifacts are totally swamped by lousy car speakers and environmental noise.  ::)

Yes, in the car or just as background music, or with a lower quality recording, there's no way I could hear a difference.  The ABX test really requires each pair of samples to be compared, randomized, and compared again at least 10 times to be statistically significant.  It took me minutes of listening and repeated comparisons for each excerpt in order to hear anything at 128k - and to be completely honest, I have no idea what it was that I used to ID the differences.  It was a nearly subconscious perception of clarity or something, but whatever it was, I was able to pick 10/10 for each of the samples so it wasn't imagination.  After the 10 tests for each sample, I was very fatigued and had to take a break.  IMHO, anyone who says the differences are "obvious" has never actually done a scientific test.

There existed (and may still exist) an electromechanical test box for comparing amplifiers, cables, etc. which ensured that any audible/visual clues were obscured to the point that specific settings could not be determined independently.  I think it actually switched relays whether A, B, or X was selected, and ensured that the path was a constant length + same number of relay contacts just to eliminate another set of objections.  It was used by a group called the SMWTMS for numerous tests in which the fallacy of audible differences between cables, interconnects, and quality amplifiers was repeatedly challenged and defeated.

Ah, the South West Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society!  I remember seeing that name in old Audio Amateur magazines. Are they still a going concern? I sure hope so, if  just for the name!  :-+ :-+
Roger Russell describes a similar setup that Gordon Gow used to use during his lectures on the ins and outs of speaker cable.  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow  :popcorn:

I love those guys.  They approach high fidelity in a rational, positive way and share their findings willingly.  No one stands to profit from deception in that group.  I just wish they were better known in the industry; the only way it seems you can get in touch with them is via email or snail mail, and their monthly meetings are livecast but not advertised anywhere except on their site.  At one time they sold the ABX box, but it seems hard to find info on it today.
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Will these fit in my multimeter? I've been getting wonky readings lately i think the fuses are causing too much noise.
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Offline Radiosonde

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Lol
I should sell 7/8 cellflex with 7/16 connectors for Audio...surely in a flexible clowth out of silk, sewed by virgins in moonlight.
Its only 5000 $ per meter...

LG

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Offline mrz80

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Last time I actually had a hifi setup, my speaker cables were snipped off a drum of three core mains cable with the earth snipped off. Sounded great! Then again I don't have Ferengi ears.

That was exactly what my grandfather did when he retired and moved from Binghamton to Phoenix. He scrounged a few lengths of 12/3 the electrician had pitched when the house was a-building, and used it for speaker wire. If it was good enough for The Old Man™ it oughta be good enough for anyone. :)

In my system I used a 25' 12/3 extension cord cut in half and the ends terminated with banana plugs and spade lugs, with some heat-shrink to keep it all looking neat. Looks fancy high end from a distance, and only cost me about $30 at Home Cheapot. Siskel and Ebert give it two thumbs up! :D
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Offline pwlps

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I have shown this thread title to a friend who asked, apparently without joking, if this is a superconducting wire. I laughed but then thought wow, this would make an ultimate audiophool-money-grade gear to show off with, the holy grail of speaker cable :). Actually the cable itself could be much cheaper, you can get thin-film high-Tc coated leads within $1k or less and a flexible vacuum-insulated cryogenic housing isn't that much more.  Cooling is a bit more problematic, the standard commercial cryocoolers (Gifford-McMahon cycle or similar) are way too noisy for audio environment, maybe a mini Stirling cooler would be silent enough. Otherwise a dewar with liquid nitrogen? Of course with a contract for weekly refill :)
 

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Y'know I wonder if products like these are important means of laundering or embezzlement.  You buy so-and-so from me and I perform so-and-so service for you, and voila, money has changed hands for whatever underhanded purpose.  Except it's not just money, but a legitimate good, and who's to say what the fair market value of that good is but its agreed sale price?

The cost of materials and labor that went into such a good, are merely a kind of tax extracted upon the laundered money.  The cost of doing business.

The scale doesn't seem quite appropriate for this though; I'd have to think they'd be moving quantities of thousands, to handle the scale of money that's normally needed to be laundered?  No idea, I know very little about the economics of such things...

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Offline David Hess

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For audio products, I am sure it started off as a real market but the money launderers would be dumb if they were not taking advantage of it by now.  Incidentally, the same thing is done in online games to facilitate third party money for gold transactions.

 

Offline wch

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Y'know I wonder if products like these are important means of laundering or embezzlement.  You buy so-and-so from me and I perform so-and-so service for you, and voila, money has changed hands for whatever underhanded purpose.  Except it's not just money, but a legitimate good, and who's to say what the fair market value of that good is but its agreed sale price?

The cost of materials and labor that went into such a good, are merely a kind of tax extracted upon the laundered money.  The cost of doing business.

The scale doesn't seem quite appropriate for this though; I'd have to think they'd be moving quantities of thousands, to handle the scale of money that's normally needed to be laundered?  No idea, I know very little about the economics of such things...

Tim

It is much easier to use AirBnB, Ebay, Amazon, and such to launder large sums of money. I imagine this sort of stuff is a much simpler, legal, very high margin con.
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Offline MrMobodies

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It's all make believe... They make it and the buyers believe it.
 
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Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2019, 12:17:55 am »
Two quotes come to mind:

"There's a sucker born every minute" -- P. T. Barnum

"Some people have more money than brains" -- Me
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #175 on: September 13, 2019, 01:33:55 am »
Here's a joke:
I wonder what these audiophools are afraid of the most.
No longer having the reassurance from their "masters" about the "build" quality in the cables cables they purchased from them because they "built" a new one.
An oscilloscope hooked up to the cables to verify "things" that they claim to hear.
A hearing test to check whether they can hear properly.

Their ultimate fear is a true double blind experiment.
Not even when James Randi's $1M was on the line to hear the difference in speaker cables did anyone take him up on it.
 

Offline Keicar

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #176 on: September 13, 2019, 05:04:02 am »
What I find curious is that it's invariably described as a night-and-day difference ("veils were lifted" etc.) that you could hear from the next room, even - yet it can't be discerned in a blind test, because reasons...
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #177 on: September 13, 2019, 12:33:37 pm »
There is no meaningful difference to the ears using the products. However, there is a difference to their minds with these products in place.

The "effect" is the "bonding" achieved with their systems vis-a-vis the apparent beauty of the physical appearance of the products. That is one reason these manufacturers pay special attention to the external appearance. This is to create the feeling that, because of the beauty, the product must be doing something special; therefore, the sound must have been improved.

The cost is also important - it must be exorbitant. This must be the case, because anything added that was cheap could not possibly be a useful technology when added to their already outlandishly expensive equipment. Good sound has to cost a lot, and so nothing inexpensive can do any (more) good. In fact anything cheap would cause their systems to be ruined as far as the perceived sonic greatness they have paid so much for already.

It's all simply psycho-marketing, which I will admit they are masters at.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #178 on: September 13, 2019, 03:31:22 pm »
There is no meaningful difference to the ears using the products. However, there is a difference to their minds with these products in place.

The "effect" is the "bonding" achieved with their systems vis-a-vis the apparent beauty of the physical appearance of the products. That is one reason these manufacturers pay special attention to the external appearance. This is to create the feeling that, because of the beauty, the product must be doing something special; therefore, the sound must have been improved.

The cost is also important - it must be exorbitant. This must be the case, because anything added that was cheap could not possibly be a useful technology when added to their already outlandishly expensive equipment. Good sound has to cost a lot, and so nothing inexpensive can do any (more) good. In fact anything cheap would cause their systems to be ruined as far as the perceived sonic greatness they have paid so much for already.

It's all simply psycho-marketing, which I will admit they are masters at.

As I said before, it's pretty much the same for a huge chunk of all the luxury industry. Is a $20k luxury watch going to give you more accurate time than a well-designed, modern $30 watch? Yes, but insignificantly in many cases. Of course the pure technical facts, at least from the pure performance POV, are often of little importance for all things luxury.

OTOH, a luxury watch may last a lifetime. That's something. The same can apply to a luxury cable. If it's designed well and uses good materials. Even if it doesn't do squat for sound quality. Even the luxury items are marketed for their performance, when the extra performance does actually matter little or is not even there. It's not just in the audio industry. It's just marketing. Marketers do that because they know most people don't feel comfortable passing as shallow, even when they are.

But if it's just grossly overpriced and badly designed crap, then it's not luxury. It's just rip-off.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 03:33:09 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2019, 12:13:43 am »
Is a $20k luxury watch going to give you more accurate time than a well-designed, modern $30 watch? Yes, but insignificantly in many cases.

I once had a wristwatch with solar cells and a DCF77 receiver. Can't remember the exact model, but it was something like this. There is no watch which will give you more accurate time, but it doesn't cost costs a fortune (EUR 330).
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Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2019, 04:33:59 pm »
The advantage of a luxury watch is that it's an investment, it will still be worth a significant percentage of its purchase price or may even appreciate in value.

HiFi, unlikely and even then only to a tiny niche market.
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Offline Bud

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2019, 04:38:36 pm »
It is meant to be a jewelry , not a time keeping device.
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2019, 05:06:05 pm »
The advantage of a luxury watch is that it's an investment, it will still be worth a significant percentage of its purchase price or may even appreciate in value.
Given the likely depreciation and, even with appreciation, the time-value of money, I'm still financially better off buying cheap functional watches and throwing them away every few years.  I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #183 on: September 18, 2019, 03:38:14 pm »
I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.

Yes, and high-end Hi-Fi gear as well for some.
 

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #184 on: September 20, 2019, 08:10:11 am »
I agree, fine watches are jewelry and status symbols -- nothing wrong with that.

Yes, and high-end Hi-Fi gear as well for some.
I don't have a problem with someone buying pure gold audiocables. I have a problem with someone advertising them using ludicrous (and/or immeasurable/impossible) claims.

If someone wants to buy the equivalent of a 10 EUR speaker cable for 30k EUR, by all means. He's an idiot, but if he thinks that's what he needs to do, then by all means.

If however the manufacturer advertises it using false claims, then it's a scam and it should be treated and prosecuted as such.


edit:
From the link at the start:
Quote
MBA uses 6N (99.9999%) high-conductivity pure copper throughout, save for its interconnects, which use solid-core single-crystal copper. MBA’s 100% proprietary copper formulation is extruded here in the U.S. by a manufacturer for the aerospace industry, using MBA’s proprietary methods and specifications. As such, no other company in the world is using this specific copper wire formulation.
So, 99.9999% pure copper is a proprietary formulation? What's the extra 1ppm?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 08:32:02 am by daqq »
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Offline taydin

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #185 on: September 20, 2019, 11:47:51 am »
No court, even the ones in banana republics, would consider audiophool equipment a scam. Let's consider a hypothetical $90,000 CD player with a 200 Kg lead implanted frame to reduce vibrations. It makes the buyer happy, makes him feel special, privileged, above the rest :) And he's willing to piss away that much money. And he pays that amount, shakes hand with the seller and leaves with a big smile on his face. Why would a court rule this as scam?

The only way for this to be scam would be if the CD player manufacturer would publish measurable specs and the device would fail to meet them. But good luck finding any measurable and relevant specs for this CD player. The only spec you will find is the width of the sound stage, the amount of "temper" and "crispness" the sound has.
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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #186 on: September 20, 2019, 03:01:09 pm »
Quote
Why would a court rule this as scam?
Sadly, in most cases it probably would not. It's false advertising though, if nothing else. The moment you claim something about your product, you should be able to back that up. And this kind of crap hurts legitimate businesses more than the dumb bastard who bought the crap.
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Offline taydin

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #187 on: September 20, 2019, 03:57:06 pm »
The moment you claim something about your product, you should be able to back that up.

Ok, manufacturer says in the specs that the sound stage is wide. The audiophool agrees. So there is no conflict. But let's say later on the phool changed his mind and sues because the sound stage isn't as wide as was claimed. How does the court do the fact finding?  ;D
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #188 on: September 20, 2019, 04:03:48 pm »
Ok, manufacturer says in the specs that the sound stage is wide. The audiophool agrees. So there is no conflict. But let's say later on the phool changed his mind and sues because the sound stage isn't as wide as was claimed. How does the court do the fact finding?  ;D

It goes to a jury trial, with technically incompetent lawyers presenting their case to technically incompetent jurors who couldn't manage to get out of jury duty.  The most emotionally persuasive argument carries the day.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #189 on: September 22, 2019, 09:00:42 pm »
Provably false claims are those with figures that can be challenged and verified. And when figures are given and smell, and someone manages to prove them false, that's great. And we can genuinely call that a scam.

When the claims are all based on qualitative parameters and not hard figures, they often can't be proven false. You fall for those claims for any reason, fine. What's the problem? Again it's the part of audio that's in the luxury area. Who cares if you want your f*cking cables to be 100% hard gold or use moon dust or whatever else ;D ? So you're ready to shell out tens of thousands for speaker wires, and you run into some company that has them AND tells you that they are better than anything else. Now who is the idiot, and is a company ready to fulfill a customer's need to blame? Pretty much all companies do that. Sure the corresponding needs are sometimes debatable, but I don't think any of those companies forces anyone to buy. As I just said, if you shell out that much for wires, you were ready to do so anyway. Who in their right mind would suddenly spend that much when they were considering, for instance, 1000 times less expensive stuff? Come on.  ::)

The sad thing with audio gear IMO is that the average joe is often subjected to either overpriced audiophool stuff, or low-cost atrocious crap that some claim are as good as anything. The reasonable, fact- AND experience-based opinions are relatively hard to find for the average crowd.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #190 on: September 23, 2019, 08:46:36 pm »
So, 99.9999% pure copper is a proprietary formulation? What's the extra 1ppm?

 Obviously, ear wax extracted solely from nude virgins, which is what gives it that truly magical sound quality.

 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2019, 12:59:23 am »
Did no one read the specs?  The most impressive thing about these cables is their current capacity, listed as 100 Amps.  Since they also say that the wire is 10 gauge you can compare that to the rated capacity for copper wire which is only 55 amps in chassis wiring applications (short runs and free air) and only 15 amps for power transmission.  Even silver wire wouldn't reduce the resistance enough to make that much difference.

So I don't care if it sounds good, it is magical for carrying power.  Unless of course they may be totally consistent in the veracity of their facts.  Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #192 on: September 24, 2019, 06:12:14 am »
current capacity, listed as 100 Amps [...] Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.

That's probably it.  Remember "music power" ratings?  I haven't seen those in a while.
 

Offline mzzj

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #193 on: September 24, 2019, 06:22:30 am »
Did no one read the specs?  The most impressive thing about these cables is their current capacity, listed as 100 Amps.  Since they also say that the wire is 10 gauge you can compare that to the rated capacity for copper wire which is only 55 amps in chassis wiring applications (short runs and free air) and only 15 amps for power transmission.  Even silver wire wouldn't reduce the resistance enough to make that much difference.

So I don't care if it sounds good, it is magical for carrying power.  Unless of course they may be totally consistent in the veracity of their facts.  Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.
Easy, 10 AWG should handle 1.6kA for 10 seconds before fusing.
Water-cooled audiophool cables anyone?  >:D
Water-cooled TIG welding torch cables are only something like 8 to 10 AWG and good for 200...250 amps 
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #194 on: September 24, 2019, 01:44:47 pm »
current capacity, listed as 100 Amps [...] Or using some magical conversion from a flaky Effective Audio Power rating back to amperes.

That's probably it.  Remember "music power" ratings?  I haven't seen those in a while.
Of course it is 100A PMPO, not RMS.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online BradC

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #195 on: September 25, 2019, 03:22:59 pm »
Of course it is 100A PMPO, not RMS.
Here ya go then :
 
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Offline rrinker

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2019, 09:27:14 pm »
 Maybe that's a correct value - for DASS Frequency response. I dunno, I don't have any tools that can measure that.

That lower curve sure is weird though - what is that one supposed to represent? Double peaks down low, then off to infinity above 20K? Does that mean if I play high enough frequencies through this thing, dogs halfway around the world will perk up their ears?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2019, 11:51:27 pm »
Unless the picture doesn't give the right sense of proportion, the speakers look pretty small. 20kW? Yeah sure. Maybe that's the amount of power this sucker draws, but probably not what you get out of it.  :-DD
 

Online BradC

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #198 on: September 26, 2019, 02:15:14 am »
Unless the picture doesn't give the right sense of proportion, the speakers look pretty small. 20kW? Yeah sure. Maybe that's the amount of power this sucker draws, but probably not what you get out of it.  :-DD

No you'd be right. Also, those "speakers" have incandescent lamps in the center.
I saw that stashed in the corner of a shed at some dudes place, so I needed to snap a pic. It's a cheap karaoke machine.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #199 on: September 26, 2019, 08:18:29 pm »
There used to be a car booster amplifier for sale in the UK, it was common to find people selling them as 200 Watt graphic equaliser booster amplifier when all it contained were a couple of Phillips TDA1516* 2x12 Watt BTL chips.

Wyhen you found the importer's catalogue it was very clear what the output rating was, when you got the item the box was emblazoned with the model number all over the box but only had the spec in very small print on an inner leaf of the box.

The model number was 200W.

* I'm slightly amazed that I remembered the chip part number and spec so I went and googled it to check I was right, I did replace rather a lot of them because ~30 years ago I worked in a shop as a tech repairing all sorts of electronics and they were a really common chip, cheap but decent performance for the price.
M0UAW
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #200 on: September 26, 2019, 09:13:29 pm »
Also, those "speakers" have incandescent lamps in the center.

Could those lamps have been wired in series with the speaker, to provide a sort of average-power current-limiting?  Given the nonlinear resistance vs Voltage, that might work OK.  Plus, it would provide a nice light show.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #201 on: September 27, 2019, 12:18:24 am »
Also, those "speakers" have incandescent lamps in the center.

Could those lamps have been wired in series with the speaker, to provide a sort of average-power current-limiting?  Given the nonlinear resistance vs Voltage, that might work OK.  Plus, it would provide a nice light show.

I think they are just there as decorative lighting. IDK if they modulate, can't be bothered to look up the specs of rubbish. ::) ;D
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The discerning audiophile's choice of proper speaker wire. ($35,000 for 2.5m)
« Reply #202 on: September 27, 2019, 12:40:36 am »
Hmm, light bulbs as speaker domes... (at least this looks like it)... what a nice idea. :-DD
(Maybe it's better designed than I think, but if not, and they are indeed replacing the speaker center domes, good lord. :-DD )
 


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