Author Topic: Snake oil  (Read 363816 times)

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Online ogden

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1125 on: February 12, 2019, 10:06:59 pm »
There's actually 2 types of conductors allowed, solid core and stranded.

Incorrect, kind of. Horizontal cable shall be solid core only. Refer to ANSI/TIA-568-C.2, 5.3 Horizontal cable mechanical performance. You may use stranded cable for patch cords indeed.

5.3 Horizontal cable mechanical performance

Horizontal cable shall consist of four balanced twisted-pairs of 22 AWG to 24 AWG thermoplastic
insulated solid conductors enclosed by a thermoplastic jacket. Horizontal cables shall comply with the
mechanical performance requirements, testing and test methods in ANSI/ICEA S-90-661-2006 for
category 3, ANSI/ICEA S-90-661-2006 for category 5e, ANSI/ICEA S-102-732-2009 for category 6, and
ANSI/ICEA S-102-732-2009 for category 6A.

In addition to the applicable requirements of ANSI/ICEA S-90-661-2006 and ANSI/ICEA S-102-732-2009,
the physical design of category 3, 5e, 6, and 6A horizontal cables shall meet the additional requirements
of this clause.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:16:04 pm by ogden »
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1126 on: February 13, 2019, 03:51:15 am »
I agree, CCA (or CCS) wire is not "snake oil". 
If the sellers openly revealed what they were selling, then you could call it "budget products".
But they are encouraging the customer to assume it is copper.  And THAT practice is outright fraud.


How is that snake oil?  I haven't seen any claims about "healing" or "quantum effects" or any other pseudo-science.  Don't confuse budget products with snake oil.


I thought of it as snake oil because of the claims of it meeting standards but then as you say they didn't specify that it had to be copper.

They don't always tell you what "CCA" stands for and especially my first encounter but oh well at least that was a clue as to why it went wrong.

I have found a picture of that Jaylo stuff and it says on the box:

On the box:
Quote
Jaylo Supplies LTD:
CAT6cca
Networking Cable
UTP Solid Conductors, 23 AWG (Solid what?)
CCA - FLUKE CHANNEL TEST
ACC TIA/EIA 586/B.2  UP TO 80 M
CE COMPLIED
1000' Pull Box

So if something doesn't meet standards it is not necessarily snake oil but just rubbish if it at least works to some extent.

CAT6 is defined by the TIA/EIA-568 standards which does not specify what material the conductors need to be made of. You may not be a fan of Aluminium, but it most certainly does comply with the specifications.

Incorrect. ANSI/TIA-568-C.2 refers to ANSI/ICEA S-90-661-2006 which states “solid conductors shall consist of commercial pure, annealed, bare copper”.

Further reading (search copper): https://www.fia-online.co.uk/pdf/Whites/wp-IAN002-01.pdf

Anyway TIA/EIA-568 specify DC resistance 9.5 Ohms @ 100m which is enough to disqualify copper-clad aluminium (for Cat 5 and higher).

[edit] I agree that CCA TP cables are not snake oil, yet it is fraud to sell CCA TP cable marked as Cat 5 or higher.

If I knew it was crap I would have avoided it.. and refused to work with it as I didn't buy it but I didn't know at the time. If it was selling at a very low price I wouldn't have paid any attention but they were everywhere in the shops locally where I was working and highly over priced than the real stuff. Some were about £120 to £140 and shocked to find they had CCA written on it (but nothing about aluminium or what it stands for) when we looked around after ripping it out but not even the shop keepers selling the stuff knew what CCA mean't. From where I normally got the real copper cable reels they just went up from £70 to nearly £80 and that was in 2012 but took a couple of days to delivery. I have brought cable reels in the past from all sorts of places, I don't remember CCA written on them and I had no trouble to investigate.

Now I am very careful and test them when they arrive and I always have a box waiting just incase someone wants work done on the quick so that doesn't happen again other than that I refuse to use any any cable given to me without testing it first.

Sorry about that for classing it as snake oil.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 04:25:58 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1127 on: February 13, 2019, 06:10:23 am »
Spotted on pages 10 - 18 of the May 1996 issue of 73 magazine is a 'bioelectrification' device designed to cure all ills including HIV that you can build yourself. I remember similar devices being sold in Australia around the same time, if I'm remembering it correctly Silicon Chip tore down one $200 device and found $5 worth of components and a 555 based circuit that made an LED flash.

https://archive.org/details/73-magazine-1996-05
 

Online bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1128 on: February 13, 2019, 08:20:44 am »
My wife’s uncle sold “mysterious health devices” like that in the 1990s until he was prosecuted. He died of stomach cancer last year. Someone said on Facebook that it was karma for all the harm he caused by selling lies and caused a massive flame war and now half her family aren’t talking to each other. Which is great because 50% less family events for me to get dragged to  :-DD
 
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Online CJay

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1129 on: February 13, 2019, 09:54:39 am »
I had a surreal conversation with the decorator at my sister's place, he had ordered a Rife machine from the US for a couple of thousand $ which he was convinced would cure all disease but was being suppressed by 'big pharma' (I was tempted to ask why Big Pharma wasn't looking after his livestock but soon realised he was serious and walked away, maintaining eye contact until I was at a safe distance)

He is/was a full on tinfoil hat, anti vax, big pharma conspiracy nut, I mentioned it to my sister and she said "yeah, he's insane but he does a good job and he's cheap"
M0UAW
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1130 on: February 13, 2019, 10:02:03 am »
I never employ nutcases. Next thing you'll hear is "I mixed your paint with my own blood to keep the aliens away, but your wall might have AIDS now" or something.
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1131 on: February 13, 2019, 10:03:48 am »
I had a surreal conversation with the decorator at my sister's place, he had ordered a Rife machine from the US for a couple of thousand $ which he was convinced would cure all disease but was being suppressed by 'big pharma' (I was tempted to ask why Big Pharma wasn't looking after his livestock but soon realised he was serious and walked away, maintaining eye contact until I was at a safe distance)

He is/was a full on tinfoil hat, anti vax, big pharma conspiracy nut, I mentioned it to my sister and she said "yeah, he's insane but he does a good job and he's cheap"

Did he use real paint or did he wipe milk on the wall to get one over on "Big Chem" ?

McBryce.
 
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Offline gildasd

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1132 on: February 13, 2019, 10:50:25 am »
My sister a few years back started ranting about aluminium in food.
After pointing out the obvious, I fed her that big Agro was adding C6H12O6 into our food.
Took her a few days  :)
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline helius

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1133 on: February 13, 2019, 05:35:28 pm »
After pointing out the obvious, I fed her that big Agro was adding C6H12O6 into our food.
That one is more of a serious matter!
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1134 on: February 13, 2019, 05:41:30 pm »
My wife’s uncle sold “mysterious health devices” like that in the 1990s until he was prosecuted. He died of stomach cancer last year. Someone said on Facebook that it was karma for all the harm he caused by selling lies and caused a massive flame war and now half her family aren’t talking to each other. Which is great because 50% less family events for me to get dragged to  :-DD

Nice joke.
"Mysterious health devices".
No longer mysterious as to what they did.


After pointing out the obvious, I fed her that big Agro was adding C6H12O6 into our food.
That one is more of a serious matter!

She'd may find aluminium pots and pans for cooking in but most now have non stick coatings.
 

Offline helius

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1135 on: February 13, 2019, 07:16:45 pm »
C6H12O6 is the formula for glucose or fructose.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1136 on: February 13, 2019, 09:21:36 pm »
C6H12O6 is the formula for glucose or fructose.
Yup. That was the joke. I am a naughty brother.
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Online Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1137 on: February 14, 2019, 02:34:48 am »
On the subject of "Snake Oil" take at this then, type this in to the search bar on eBay "45 RPM Record Adapter Turntable Spindle(AT001". That's shining example of snake oil being applied and then at the sellers other items for sale  :-DD
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1138 on: February 14, 2019, 07:34:03 am »
I may be getting different results as you don't specifiy which ebay, but I couldn't find any "snake oiling" in any of the offers for this device. Tell us more.

McBryce.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1139 on: February 14, 2019, 01:49:34 pm »
On the subject of "Snake Oil" take at this then, type this in to the search bar on eBay "45 RPM Record Adapter Turntable Spindle(AT001". That's shining example of snake oil being applied and then at the sellers other items for sale  :-DD

Back in the day, some 45 rpm discs had a very large hole in the centre.
It seems some record changers specially made for that speed had large diameter spindles (perhaps, juke boxes).
To use such discs with a normal spindle, two types of plastic adapters were made .

One type was pushed into the large hole, presenting a small hole to the small spindle, whereas the other one
slid over the spindle, & the disc was played in the intended manner.
 

Online Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1140 on: February 14, 2019, 02:37:53 pm »
This is correct, the large hole is designed to fit jukeboxes and all 45RPM single records came with a breakout centre section to enable the same record to played in a jukebox or the far more common standard record player which only had a small spindle. Point of my post was that all record players of all makes all came with standard sized spindles and all records were made to fit either standard players or jukeboxes and yet that seller on eBay is trying make believe that each maker of record players required different sized adaptors to convert ex jukebox records to be played on their record players.

The same also applies to the power leads the same seller is selling, even when the equipment in question uses a standard figure 8 or IEC C13 type of plugs :palm:
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1141 on: February 14, 2019, 02:45:48 pm »
Many ebay sellers have multiple ebay items for the same "generic" product with the only difference being added brand names. It must be some form of search engine optimization. It's stupid and irritating but can probably not be called snake oil.

Also, the adapters are needed when you want to play a 45 with the big hole on a old record player that plays a sequence of records. You stack the records on a long center pin and the records drop down one at a time. The center adapters delivered with most record players don't work for this type of player.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 02:49:48 pm by glarsson »
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1142 on: February 14, 2019, 04:50:40 pm »
On the subject of "Snake Oil" take at this then, type this in to the search bar on eBay "45 RPM Record Adapter Turntable Spindle(AT001". That's shining example of snake oil being applied and then at the sellers other items for sale  :-DD

That is ordinary Ebay description "coverage".  So that buyers who are unfamiliar with the generic nature of the product will still find the listing if they include a particular brand-name in their search.  It is quite clear that all the listings are for exactly the same product but with different brand names to allow buyers to find them.  That is a very common practice on Ebay in all sorts of products.  Nothing "snake-oilish" about it.

It is very similar to people selling test equipment to identify a piece as "Hewlett-Packard HP Agilent Keysight"  Clearly no piece of gear is labeled with more than one of these company names.  But the description is "overloaded" (a programming term) to attract searchers for any one of the brand names.

Ebay has many quirks that bug me.  Much worse than this is when you find 20 listings for exactly the same product at the same price and the same description from the same seller.  I don't see any reason for this except perhaps to catch more buyers.  In my view, it just clutters up the search results and makes you scroll through pages and pages of extra listings to find what you are seeking.
 

Online Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1143 on: February 14, 2019, 05:09:30 pm »

It is very similar to people selling test equipment to identify a piece as "Hewlett-Packard HP Agilent Keysight"  Clearly no piece of gear is labeled with more than one of these company names.  But the description is "overloaded" (a programming term) to attract searchers for any one of the brand names.

Maybe we are coming at this from 2 different directions here. In the case of the example you give above, I'm very happy with that description, since HP changed to Agilent and then to Keysight and this is a way of informing people that equipment carrying any of these brand names is a good piece of equipment and embraces all the goodness of the original Hewlett-Packard brand and image.

The eBay listing for those record adaptors, to me at least, suggests to people that an adaptor that mentions Aiwa, will not work satisfactorily on a record made Garrard, BSR, Goodmans, Akai, B&O, Philips, Teac, etc which is utter rubbish.

I sell items on eBay myself and I have never had eBay take it upon themselves to alter my heading and or the description of what I sell which leads me to conclude that the entries have been produced by the seller themselves.
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1144 on: February 14, 2019, 05:54:19 pm »
The eBay listing for those record adaptors, to me at least, suggests to people that an adaptor that mentions Aiwa, will not work satisfactorily on a record made Garrard, BSR, Goodmans, Akai, B&O, Philips, Teac, etc which is utter rubbish.
Of course it is utter rubbish.  Which is why I don't think anyone, the seller or the potential buyers are taking it that way.

Quote
I sell items on eBay myself and I have never had eBay take it upon themselves to alter my heading and or the description of what I sell which leads me to conclude that the entries have been produced by the seller themselves.
I wasn't suggesting that eBay changes anything.  It is clear that the sellers themselves are writing those descriptions.  As you say, our perceptions of the intent are clearly quite different.
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1145 on: February 15, 2019, 07:37:07 am »
The sellers add brands to the heading themselves to let lesser experts know that it will work with their device. You often see it with generic USB chargers, where the same seller will have multiple items with branded headers such as "Samsung compatible charger", "Asus compatible Charger" etc. Even though they are all the same item. They are not suggesting that the different devices need different chargers, just giving the buyer that warm fuzzy feeling that they ordered the right device.

McBryce.
 

Online Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1146 on: February 15, 2019, 08:56:32 am »
The sellers add brands to the heading themselves to let lesser experts know that it will work with their device. You often see it with generic USB chargers, where the same seller will have multiple items with branded headers such as "Samsung compatible charger", "Asus compatible Charger" etc. Even though they are all the same item. They are not suggesting that the different devices need different chargers, just giving the buyer that warm fuzzy feeling that they ordered the right device.

McBryce.
Much clearer and less confusing to simply to state that the adaptor fits all records with large hole and works with any record player, including autochanger. Job done.
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline Pluscrafter

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1147 on: March 05, 2019, 11:02:08 pm »

He is litteraly sell snake oil :)
 

Offline helius

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1148 on: March 06, 2019, 02:02:47 am »
Interesting video! Reminds me of Szasz.
However, I think many of his points are self-defeating. He over-simplifies psychiatry by ignoring different clinical traditions (analysis, Rogerian, CBT, etc).
There's also a kind of "whataboutism" in criticizing the DSM to deflect attention from some of the claims that Quackwatch focuses on made by naturopaths, chiropractors, and so forth. The Quackwatch site is primarily directed at warning people about dangerous "alternative medicine" claims, not innocuous things like vitamins and fish oils.
 

Online Buriedcode

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #1149 on: March 06, 2019, 08:01:00 pm »
That video, he' seems to think EPA and DHA are somehow theraputic when there is little evidence that supplementing ones diet with either has any benefit whatsoever.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/fake-news-about-fish-oil/
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-benefit-from-fish-oil/

Then compares that with.. psychiatry.  I don't think anyone claims that psychiatry is a solid science, but it does strive to do better.  There are many dodgy theories that need to die, and often there are theories du-jour that turn out to be complete bunk.  Honestly, it sounds like he just doesn't like psychiatry, and tries to compare it to well grounded medicine, whilst at the same time promoting oil supplements that aren't snake oil, but are in the same vein as vitamin and mineral supplements (= expensive wee wee).

I completely agree with helius: picking apart the DSM which has undergone quite radical changes in response to evidence in recent years doesn't compare to actual quackery like chiropractors.

Often there isn't some nice dividing line between "solid science" and quackery.  Just look at how integrative medicine tries to adopt "diet and exercise" to give it some form of legitimacy: so any criticisms can be countered with "so you say diet and exercise aren't important for health!?" whilst simultaneously promoting homeopathy, "energy healing" and all that crap.   Or claiming that their treatment helps via placebo effects (that don't have any therapeutic value).  It's becoming more difficult to distinguish fact from fake news these days, journalists and even medical doctors can fall prey.
 
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