Author Topic: Snake oil  (Read 352232 times)

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Offline cprobertson1

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #925 on: November 04, 2017, 12:56:55 pm »
DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.
Paint thinner does also apparently pass through skin. It also passes through the blood-brain barrier and eats up rubber gloves. Not a great combination. The more I learn about it, the more I'm surprised people can by it without a problem. I think most danger comes from people not realizing the nastiness they're dealing with.

Again, it all comes down to dosing: the dose makes the poison; you're much more likely to get paint thinner into you from inhalation (your lungs are designed to transfer chemicals: skin, not so much) - so while possible, it's much less of a concern - obviously, if you were bathing in it, it might be an issue - but from casual use it's not likely to be enough to have a terrible effect on you - and if it does have an effect it's likely to be mild compared to an inhalation injury with the same chemical. As for passing throug hte blood-brain barrier; most chemicals do that - the barrier is designed to stop big things like cells and viruses crossing over - chemicals can diffuse across it with relative ease unless they are very large, complex, or have specific characteristics that stop them passing through it - if they didn't, you would struggle to actually give your brain oxygen and glucose and take away it's waste products.



-detoxifying, total utter :bullshit:, it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)

As most humans sweat, I would tend to disagree with that one.
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Detox is indeed utter ******** - it can be debunked with the simple nursery-level question - "so what actual toxin is being removed". As for moving a lot of material through your skin - it is generally one-way, your skin is designed to act as a barrier - sweating is a deliberate excretion from specific organs in your skin, and because of that you can't get just anything coming out of it.

To quote my original post:

Quote
If it's soluble in oil and it's in your blood, some of it will come out through your skin - mostly through the sebum. Likewise if it's water-soluble, some of it will come out in your sweat.

Regardless of solubility, as a rule of thumb, most of everything that enters your blood leaves it through the urine - except carbon, which mostly leaves through your lungs as CO2


Anyway, I'm going to stop typing now - I've gotten waaaaaaay off topic ;)
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #926 on: November 04, 2017, 02:04:26 pm »
DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.
Paint thinner does also apparently pass through skin. It also passes through the blood-brain barrier and eats up rubber gloves. Not a great combination. The more I learn about it, the more I'm surprised people can by it without a problem. I think most danger comes from people not realizing the nastiness they're dealing with.

Again, it all comes down to dosing: the dose makes the poison; you're much more likely to get paint thinner into you from inhalation (your lungs are designed to transfer chemicals: skin, not so much) - so while possible, it's much less of a concern - obviously, if you were bathing in it, it might be an issue - but from casual use it's not likely to be enough to have a terrible effect on you - and if it does have an effect it's likely to be mild compared to an inhalation injury with the same chemical. As for passing throug hte blood-brain barrier; most chemicals do that - the barrier is designed to stop big things like cells and viruses crossing over - chemicals can diffuse across it with relative ease unless they are very large, complex, or have specific characteristics that stop them passing through it - if they didn't, you would struggle to actually give your brain oxygen and glucose and take away it's waste products.


Some pthalates will make it through the skin. This was discovered from testicular atrophy in painters who kept paint and solvent contaminated rags in the pockets of their overalls. Anybody really interested ought to be able to find a paper from ICI's reproductive toxicity lab entitled something like "Lactate Dehydrogenase as a Marker of Sertoli Cell damage" by HJ Barker and Andy somebody from the early eighties which contains the background. The take-away message is "Gentlemen, do not keep painter's rags in your trouser pockets or your balls will shrivel.".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #927 on: November 04, 2017, 06:43:55 pm »
The take-away message is "Gentlemen, do not keep painter's rags in your trouser pockets or your balls will shrivel.".
Darn It!!!
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline skarecrow

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #928 on: November 04, 2017, 06:47:49 pm »
I have come to the conclusion I'm in the wrong business.

The thing that gets me is, would I be a bad person if I sold people tiny bottles of shit and shiny cables for a fortune?

Is taking money from idiots bad or a justifiable punishment?

I've long been of that opinion about my own career, there is a yuge resource of idiocy out there just waiting to be exploited, in fact they're often begging to be exploited and will hand over their money with a smile on their face, but even better, they'll then tell other gullible idiots how great the deal was and be completely sincere about it.

It is absolutely clear that in the majority of cases of audiophoolery that there isn't any downside (other than mild, easily ignored ridicule) to selling the BS because people *want* to be conned, they want to believe they are somehow special, golden ears listeners.

I'm thinking I may have to visit my local stone merchant and see if they'll sell me some of their waste stone offcuts.
That reminds me of people who buy Apple products.

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Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #929 on: November 04, 2017, 08:58:12 pm »
Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house  :box:

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #930 on: November 04, 2017, 09:34:31 pm »
Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house  :box:

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)
Are you implying Apple products don't need fixing, or are you saying something else?
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #931 on: November 04, 2017, 09:52:49 pm »
No I'm saying that it's a tool. It is a device for producing something. It's a complicated screwdriver. It's an income generator for me. The screwdriver happens not to disintegrate in your hands. The implication that you are a dumbass for picking a tool is immature and reminiscent of the "my dad can fight your dad" in the playground  :palm:

If something doesn't do something at all or fails to live up to its claims then that's on topic.
 

Offline djos

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #932 on: November 04, 2017, 10:54:22 pm »
Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house  :box:

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)

Apple fan boi here too, our 3 main computers in our house are Mac's, but I also run a Linux server and a Windows server. Using Mac's means ease of use and a generally hassle free computing experience. They also last 7 - 10 years (my 2007 MacBook is only just EOL now) so are worth the cost.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #933 on: November 04, 2017, 11:23:31 pm »
The implication that you are a dumbass for picking a tool is immature and reminiscent of the "my dad can fight your dad" in the playground  :palm:

Indeed. Please people, can the Apple haters just please knock it off. On average every couple of days I see some muppet randomly spout off in some completely unrelated thread about how lame Apple are, or how lame Apple users are. It's tiresome, it's childish. There are much better things to talk about and comment on.

What does it say about one, if one is defined by hating what other people do, or like, or use, so much that one must mention it at every opportunity, and if an opportunity doesn't present itself, saying it anyway? I'm reminded of those persistently outspoken homophobic politicians - and then we get to hear about the string of rent boys. What are you lot doing, renting MacBooks by the half hour in seedy dark alleyways?

What would it get like around here if people started giving Fluke, or HP, or Keithley, or Siglent, or Rigol,  the 'Apple treatment'?

Oh, and I always won those playground "my dad can fight your dad" contests; WWII Commando and unarmed combat instructor, you bet my dad could beat them.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline skarecrow

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #934 on: November 04, 2017, 11:57:52 pm »
I stupidly didn't think about the possible war that could start because of my post, so I'll just go hide in a corner. I personally no longer use anything made by Apple because of my experiences with them, but like I always say, use what works for YOU, not what works for ME.

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #935 on: November 05, 2017, 12:41:36 am »
No I'm saying that it's a tool. It is a device for producing something. It's a complicated screwdriver. It's an income generator for me. The screwdriver happens not to disintegrate in your hands. The implication that you are a dumbass for picking a tool is immature and reminiscent of the "my dad can fight your dad" in the playground  :palm:

If something doesn't do something at all or fails to live up to its claims then that's on topic.
I'm still not quite sure what the "fixing shit" comment was meant to convey, but I understand you're saying they're tools that happen to be convenient to you? My biggest problem with Apple right now is that providing support for multiple platforms isn't always convenient or easy, but more of a logistics thing, rather than brand specific.

Unfortunately, you can see people showing this behaviour everywhere. AMD versus Nvidia. Makita versus Bosch. Ford versus Chevy. Somehow people love to live in camps and defend it to the death, typically against all reason. I'm glad not everyone likes it exactly like I do, because things would become fairly unworkable rather soon.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #936 on: November 06, 2017, 09:39:43 am »
Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house  :box:

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)

Apple fan boi here too, our 3 main computers in our house are Mac's, but I also run a Linux server and a Windows server. Using Mac's means ease of use and a generally hassle free computing experience. They also last 7 - 10 years (my 2007 MacBook is only just EOL now) so are worth the cost.

Longevity is a regular advantage claimed for Macs and it's a claim that holds up, they do last pretty well but then so do pro grade Wintel machines, what don't last all that well are the bargain basement recycled yoghurt pot Wintel computers you can buy for a fifth of (or lower) price.

I've only just retired my HP Elitebook 6930p and the only reason is because something better came along, coupled with the prohibitive price of sticking more obsolete and now expensive memory into it.

It was getting on for 8-9 years old and still working perfectly well.

I like Macs, they work, what I don't like is Apple and the horrifically high prices they charge.

Other than that, if money were no object, I'd probably have a Mac or two.

iPhones, another story entirely, I've been trying to get to grips with one for the past fortnight (unfortunate incident involving a Google Pixel and a bowl of water), I hate it, absolutely loath the iPhone but unless I can lay hands on a decent Android smartphone I'm stuck with it for another year or more.
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Offline djos

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #937 on: November 06, 2017, 10:03:28 am »

iPhones, another story entirely, I've been trying to get to grips with one for the past fortnight (unfortunate incident involving a Google Pixel and a bowl of water), I hate it, absolutely loath the iPhone but unless I can lay hands on a decent Android smartphone I'm stuck with it for another year or more.

Lol, it's funny how we all have different preferences, I had an Android phone for work for 2 years and found it irritating, I've bought my own iPhones ever since and claimed work use on tax.

I dont hate Android and did like certain things about Android, I just prefer the consistency of the iPhone UI and the Family device mgmt functionality of iOS makes my life easy as a dad with young kids who have iPads.

The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #938 on: November 06, 2017, 10:56:54 am »
Just some quantitative stuff to back up my assertions about reliability.

I'll write down my experiences quickly as I have a vast experience across lots of different platforms.

On the mobile front, I spent a number of years with Android and Windows Phone. For me, the handset is a communication and entertainment device. Both failed at that for my use cases regularly. I'm going to ignore Windows Phone which was a complete disaster across the board the moment Windows Phone 10 came out. Particularly I found that Android required a lot of maintenance, particularly at inconvenient times, all the media options were quite unreliable and the storage story was awful, including several events where 6 and 7 hosed the device entirely with qualified SD cards. Once I ended up with a randomly hosed handset on the road, stuck in a Travelodge in Manchester with a meeting to get to in an hour. I don't have time for that shit. After spending hours managing media and fixing my stuff, I eventually I just said fuck it and bought a 128Gb iPhone 6s and use Apple Music (which gets shared with all 5 household members). It has a number of irritations (everything does!) but I genuinely have to do no maintenance on it ever. It just works. Over the lifetime of the device it works out at £40/month excluding the contract but frees up between 5-10 hours of maintenance and moving files around every month. My leisure time is worth more than £8/hour to me. Also if I break it, I can walk into an Apple store and walk out with another handset on the same day because I paid for Apple Care. If you've ever dealt with 3rd party support companies who do most of the maintenance, you'll understand why this is attractive. One Motorola handset I had failed entirely after a month and came back with no repair after a month with water damage apparently. It wasn't water damaged. The repairer water damaged it because it was cheaper than repairing it. Barclaycard sorted that one out.

I'll concede on Apple Pricing on laptops. It's pretty high. My daily driver laptop was a top end 15" MBP (i7, 16Gb, 1TiB SSD) and cost me just over £3k when I bought it. But that was in 2013. I was paying around £1500 for a T-series ThinkPad before that which was lasting about 18 months and thanks to windows (which isn't all that great for us Linux and AWS wranglers) I was burning hours a month on friction and broken shit.  This thing hasn't had a single problem since I got it. Not one in 4 years. I expect to get 6 years out of it. So that's £42/month.

So I'm running my entire operation on a £82/month budget (which is a tiny fraction of my post-tax income) and get top line hardware that doesn't get in my way and when I'm tired of it, I get a quite frankly ridiculously large 30-40% return on what I sell.

A note though on subsidies. When you purchase a PC based laptop, a lot of the time you're paying less than cost price for the laptop as some of the cost is usually subsidised by Microsoft who will try and use it to upsell you subscription services (windows SKU upgrades, office etc) and crapware by third parties. When you buy a Mac, there are no subsidies. You're paying for all the services that they issue with it such as calendaring, cloud, mail, messaging, pages/numbers (which aren't that bad), mapping, navigation, contact management, the lot up front. There are two upsells which are Apple Music and more cloud storage, both of which I buy because they are cheaper than working around it to be honest and they work very well. This is evidenced by the fact that half of the new UWP apps that ship with windows 10 are advertising driven and telemetry.

I think a lot of friction people experience when moving between platforms is the naive expectation that if you walk into a room, all the chairs are going to be exactly where you want them. You have to go in open-minded and thoroughly researched and don't try and move all the chairs around.

Now there are a few turds I will say. The first is software availability. As much as I like it, some stuff only runs on windows. But that sits in a VM and stays out of the way. If windows goes pop, it gets reverted to a snapshot and the world carries on.  Also I'm not too sure about the current line MacBook Pro and the new function key display but I really rarely use function keys (as I'm a unix guy) so perhaps this isn't a problem.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 11:02:25 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #939 on: November 06, 2017, 09:55:35 pm »
Personally I prefer Android and Windows over IOS systems and the way I see it is quite simple really, the advantage of IOS however has over the others is that there is only 1 manufacturer and they can control the quality of their product and therefore their reputation because there is no-one else to blame when and if things go wrong.

I like Android really I suppose because they are far cheaper to buy than the IOS counterpart so I have always had Android and never experienced a really nasty problem with them either. I have to say as well that I have never owned or used an IOS phone either so I have no real firsthand knowledge of using and living with one.

One of the biggest dislikes about iPhones is the fact that the battery is sealed in whereas on most of the Android phones, they are easy to remove if the phone ever freezes on you and also to replace when they reach the point that they don't hold charge very well.

A company I was working for moved over to Windows 10 phones and after a bit of getting used to, using a bd139 terminology, the biggest problem with operating it was the fact that the chairs had been arranged in a different order, once learned where they were it was not a problem.

When it comes to computers, Again the path chosen was down to price point and also the choice of software, which was largely dictated by companies I worked for as the system and software had to be 100% compatible with their system which is 99% of the business community is going to Microsoft based except for certain industries that have always traditionally gone down the IOS (Apple) route.

So thats why I favour Android and Windows over Apple and IOS, not to mention that there is a far bigger choice of phones and computers then there is with Apple products and is because the OS and the platform is open for development by third parties who write software to run on it and also hardware to exploit the OS. The biggest problem is also born out of their strength, is that they do not restrict access to it and neither do they enforce as much quality control as Apple do
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #940 on: November 06, 2017, 10:28:42 pm »
Lysergic acid diethylamide is absorbed through skin but oil made out of snakes probably isn't as good, what was the topic anyway ?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #941 on: November 07, 2017, 02:40:18 am »
The problem I've had so far with iOS and OS X devices is that they're not as bulletproof as they are reported to be. Something inevitably turns out not to work and unless you're a CLI wizard on that platform, you won't have much feedback about what's wrong and little to no tools to fix it. It can be a frustrating experience.

That's what I mostly like about Windows and Android. You can find pretty much any and all software you could imagine for it, you can change anything you like to the point of breaking things completely and if things break, you have a nice array of tools to help you deal with that. Though I must admit, Apple's consistent updates and some of the more secure hardware on the market is appealing. It also doesn't help that the Android software support situation currently is an utter mess, or that the freedom and control that made Windows so appealing in the past appears to be disappearing quickly due to the new Microsoft course.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 03:11:25 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #942 on: November 07, 2017, 08:20:52 am »
I am a terminal wizard so I’m good (20 years of unix admin experience).

Everyone wants the App Store model because they see Apple doing well. MSFT will do a 180 when market dwindles. I hope they do anyway as I’m going to be honest and say that the most productive software stack ever was when they dropped Windows desktop, server and dev tools at the same time.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #943 on: November 07, 2017, 05:09:57 pm »
I am a terminal wizard so I’m good (20 years of unix admin experience).

Everyone wants the App Store model because they see Apple doing well. MSFT will do a 180 when market dwindles. I hope they do anyway as I’m going to be honest and say that the most productive software stack ever was when they dropped Windows desktop, server and dev tools at the same time.
Doing what Apple does is the stupidest thing they can do. They won't be able to match the Apple proposition, for a number of reasons I won't go into, and will lose what actually is their selling point in the process.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #944 on: November 07, 2017, 05:24:33 pm »
Indeed. On topic for sure, MSFT's marketing is snake oil at the moment.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #945 on: November 07, 2017, 07:16:59 pm »
Indeed. On topic for sure, MSFT's marketing is snake oil at the moment.

Yep. They've spent more than a decade and billions of $$$ trying to play catch-up with Apple and Google, all the time alienating their core customer base (Windows 8 anybody?  :palm: )
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #946 on: November 07, 2017, 07:17:08 pm »
One of the big things that holds Apple back from being what they could be is their approach to software. Bringing out all their regular updates to the OS and then once people with slightly older devices realise that they just bricked their device because their platform is not capable of running the latest OS. They don't offer a roll back system where in cases like that you could be rolled to the system you were running before. Thus forcing customers to update their device, which they may elect to do so but move away from Apple to one of the other platforms.
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #947 on: November 07, 2017, 07:22:38 pm »
One of the big things that holds Apple back from being what they could be is their approach to software. Bringing out all their regular updates to the OS and then once people with slightly older devices realise that they just bricked their device because their platform is not capable of running the latest OS. They don't offer a roll back system where in cases like that you could be rolled to the system you were running before. Thus forcing customers to update their device, which they may elect to do so but move away from Apple to one of the other platforms.
I don't quite think that an accident or holding them back. Whether it's full-on intent or wilful neglect, the last update on a device always seem a lot slower than previous updates were. As a company, you don't want inevitably vulnerable devices floating around anyway, so getting rid of them isn't a terrible idea. At least on paper it isn't.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #948 on: November 07, 2017, 07:35:47 pm »
I’ve never actually observed any slowing down. My 2013 MBP still goes like lightning. My 2010 MBP is still supported and goes like lightning. Only thing that got a bit cranky were the 32 bit iPhones but there was a massive architectural change at the OS level when they did that switcheroo.

Apple are supporting handsets that are 5 years old and computers going back 8 years.

To be honest we cycle all our hardware in the office every 24 months.

Android - a year or patches if you’re lucky, if you’re not, none! Windows phone - they just canned the entire platform. MS has also dumped support for surface machines that are less than 18 months old. Also let’s not forget windows RT. Hmm...

We have banned android handsets and windows phone ones it has got that bad. You get a managed iOS device and that’s it.

I think a lot of knowledge about the Apple ecosystem is rumour mill at best.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 07:37:54 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Snake oil
« Reply #949 on: November 07, 2017, 08:09:48 pm »
It's not the supported devices that are the problem, it's the last update before devices lose support. But yes, the Android update situation is absolutely dreadful. Windows Phone, well, yeah.

Microsoft actually had a nice product going, but the inconsistency has killed it, along with any future mobile products. No one will be stupid enough to invest in anything new with the shaky commitment Microsoft displayed. If you want to be in the enterprise market, you have to play the long game.
 


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