Author Topic: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds  (Read 1083 times)

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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2020, 11:07:25 pm »
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how you have to use clean cups, have a specific height above the water etc.

So much like, say, EMC probes or that I-Prober thing (got an Ebay search on those but they're not getting any cheaper). Needing a particular environment or support isn't in and of itself a fail. And if it does what they say given those circumstances, it should be hard to argue that it doesn't work.

The issue is whether or not those things are appropriate - for the suggested usage (i.e. the girl on the river bank taking a sip) they clearly aren't, but saying it doesn't work when they can show that it does - albeit given a laboratory setting - is asking for a fail fail.

I saw this the other day on BBC Click! and whilst they tend to be non-judgemental I'm fairly sure they wouldn't show it working if it didn't. You could be the man to show them up :)

 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2020, 11:26:07 pm »
About the only thing I can think of for water quality that would kind of work in that manner is UV spectroscopy, and even that is super broad (and rather expensive).

What they're probably doing is just measuring the conductivity of the sample, which is utterly useless.



E: "Doesn't have to touch the water to get a reading" OK, this is total bullshit. I guess you could do some sort of reflected light measurement with a UV source but I don't see how that'll give any decent results.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:33:25 pm by KaneTW »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2020, 11:37:48 pm »
Journalists will cover everything these days for a bribe from PR droids.

The chick at the river is of course as stock photo, as you would expect given the filename which they didn't even bother to change |O
https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-hiker-woman-drinking-water-river-creek-hiking-zion-national-park-happy-female-taking-break-fresh-image44158426

The testimonials are laughable
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since our new neighbors started to use our water source, we have suffered from unexplained pain. The TestDrop Pro has consistently shown that our incoming water is very bad
:wtf:

I'm only surprised that they managed to score those successful tests of protein detection at borderline homeopathic levels. I wonder if all their devices are exactly identical or perhaps they are "a dynamic startup" and "constantly iterating", read: "every device we show is tuned for the particular tests it will be subjected to".

Theranos 2.0? :popcorn:
At least it's not a fucking "Woman In Tech vs Hateful Misogynist Crusaders" this time around ::)

OTOH, they are based in Israel so good luck going after them.
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 07:16:08 am »
Mrs EEVblog who is a water quality scientist and published in the field of water contamination just looked at the web page stared in disbelief and walked away.

Would she be up to joining you in front of a camera for this one debunk? I'd think it would make a great video to show how this thing works (or doesn't) from electronics perspective and then what it takes to actually analyze water, assuming she has access to the equipment and can arrange a bit of filming in her lab.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 07:50:45 am »
About the only thing I can think of for water quality that would kind of work in that manner is UV spectroscopy, and even that is super broad (and rather expensive).

What they're probably doing is just measuring the conductivity of the sample, which is utterly useless.

E: "Doesn't have to touch the water to get a reading" OK, this is total bullshit. I guess you could do some sort of reflected light measurement with a UV source but I don't see how that'll give any decent results.

No, that's not how it works (or claims to work). It responds to charge build-up on the plastic container. You might consider reading this thread, the web site, and/or the patent cited earlier in this thread.  :P

Can this work reliably, and provide a measure of water quality? I don't think so. Even if we assume that they can get a charge reading via capacitive sensing, and limit the discussion to those substances which do have an effect on charge build-up -- why would the "critical" charge be the same for all kinds of contaminants? It's a simple scalar measurement, after all, while different contaminants will likely vary a lot in toxicity.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 08:57:24 am »
It takes a few seconds so it may not be just a single scalar measurement.

But I also doubt that they are the first to study electric fields around chemicals so somebody else would already be building such detectors if it were so simple  :-//

And they didn't patent the measurement process itself, only some general mumbo-jumbo about testing water quality with electric field, so perhaps there is nothing there to patent :P
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 10:35:59 am »
I'm not claiming that's how it works, I'm claiming the way I outlined is the only way I can think of to maybe measure something remotely relevant.

What they're actually claiming to be doing is hopeless and can maybe detect distilled water unreliably at best.
 

Online daqq

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 11:26:56 am »
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I saw this the other day on BBC Click! and whilst they tend to be non-judgemental I'm fairly sure they wouldn't show it working if it didn't.
Oh dear, you havent been on the internet for long, have you?
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 01:19:19 pm »
BBC Click! is not the internet.

And, in answer to your patronising put-down, I am an intertubes n00bie of only 28 years or so. How is that relevant?

 

Online daqq

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 02:37:23 pm »
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BBC Click! is not the internet.
A lot of, if not most of the current science and gadget 'reporting' is just some 'reporter' regurgitating the marketing presentation from cool sounding startups without any critical thinking applied to the process. Just look at the coverage Solar Roadways, Triton Gill, Fontus or any number of obviously awful designs got - all of the media coverage was high praise for an innovative design that would save the world! The fact that they could be disproven or shown absolutely impractical by a few quick calculations by any reasonable engineer did not matter.

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And, in answer to your patronising put-down, I am an intertubes n00bie of only 28 years or so. How is that relevant?
That it's really an extremely optimistic assumption that tech reporting "wouldn't show it working if it didn't". You need to work on your cynicism.
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 02:53:39 pm »
I've looked at their site again.



This is such a humongous array of different compounds that you'd need a well equipped analytical lab to determine all of these with any degree of selectivity.

You can't detect all those different metals (at safety-relevant levels) without specific reagents and a whole bunch of assays or a mass spectrometer.
Somehow Hg is different from HgCl2, implying that "Mercury" doesn't implicitly stand for mercury salts.

The entire bottom section is just "scary sounding IUPAC names" (and somehow 4-chlorophenol is a small organic compound while 2,4,6-trichlorophenol deserves a separate bullet point).



Basically the only thing I'm seeing is that they do a capacitance measurement and any deviation from some threshold is "bad". They're not testing for any of the above things, they're just measuring capacitance (which depends on conductivity, which depends on ion concentration).
I bet if you do a test against DI water and DI water with anything that doesn't dissociate in water, it won't even notice it. Calling BS on trihalomethanes especially. There's 0 chance it can detect chloroform in relevant concentrations.
Totally useless as a test, as water with high harmless ion concentration will register as bad, while low-conductivity but toxic water will register as "fine".
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 02:54:42 pm »
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optimistic assumption that tech reporting "wouldn't show it working if it didn't"

I specifically mentioned BBC Click! because it isn't common or garden 'tech reporting'. Yes, it is fairly superficial due to the format, but they do tend to point out faults where appropriate.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 02:58:45 pm »
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high harmless ion concentration will register as bad

"Better safe than sorry". No worse than sell-by dates.

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low-conductivity but toxic water will register as "fine"

But that would be very bad indeed.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 02:59:38 pm »
https://youtu.be/Gvh_Fkg9VJw?t=904

"chance of contamination: 40%" for safe-to-drink water.
"90%" for water with some unspecified additive.

And then the host goes "does seem to work" after the most unscientific test you could possibly do.
Not looking good for BBC Click here.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 03:21:12 pm »
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BBC Click
A guide to all the latest gadgets, websites, games and computer industry news.
Sounds like startups to me. If you have any familiarity with that culture, you would know that it's all about bullshit, hype, young naive millennials trying to change the world, and then some more lies and defrauding the investors, and the investors putting up with all that for a chance of attempting to establish a monopoly by dumping the product for the first few years.

Those journalists can't bee too critical or they wouldn't specialize in reporting on that industry in the first place.

In similar vein, TechCrunch
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It’s that simple to operate; I did it myself successfully after one or two tries. It’s so simple, in fact, that I was suspicious. I thought it might be some kind of spectroscopy, but where was the emitter? Why did you have to move it, if not to create some kind of doppler effect?

Turns out that the whole thing is based on the electromagnetic fields that surround everything. Water creates its own local field, which is measured by moving the TestDrop through it, and it turns out that clean water emits a slightly different field than water with lead or chlorine in it, water with E. coli, water with dissolved animal matter and so on.

The device has been subjected to third-party testing, two reports from which I read; the thing really works. It detected even tiny amounts of lead and protein instantly and with 100 percent accuracy and no false positives or negatives.
:-DD
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 03:27:13 pm »
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And then the host goes "does seem to work"

What's wrong with that? He didn't say it deffo works, he correctly stated it seemed to work. And he told us he already knew which beaker was the fixed one so we're well aware of the failings in the demo. Nevertheless, I would trust him 100% to have not faked that segment. If he'd had to do it several times before getting the 'good' clip, he would have said so (they have done that previously).
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 04:06:03 pm »
I trust that it works as he'd shown. But it's just nothing more than smoke and mirrors due to how the test was structured.

That TechCrunch quote though, wow. I'd love to see those reports, especially on selectivity. "Yeah, we added lead acetate to DI water and it detected something"
 

Offline magic

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 04:13:03 pm »
I suppose it's the same third party tests that are linked on the company's front page.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 05:34:18 pm »
Ah, yet another website that doesn't load properly without all third party scripts enabled. I found them.

https://www.lishtot.com/reports/180108%20Lishtot%20TestDrop%20Pro%20-%20PFOS%20-%20FINAL.pdf
https://www.lishtot.com/reports/180105%20Lishtot%20TestDrop%20Pro%20-%20Protein%20-%20FINAL%20-%20AB%20AK%20Signed.pdf

As expected: HPLC grade (ultrapure) water as negative control, sensitivity on "high", no selectivity tests. And a nice legal disclaimer at the bottom.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 05:39:17 pm »
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I trust that it works as he'd shown.

Exactly! That's not saying it works as advertised, but it does say to me not to write it off as impossible without looking any further.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 05:47:31 pm »
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high harmless ion concentration will register as bad

"Better safe than sorry". No worse than sell-by dates.

here they have been changed to "use before" for stuff that might make you sick after the date and "best before" for stuff that will probably be fine but maybe not as good after the date

 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Lishtot - Test If ANY Water Source Is Safe To Drink In 2 Seconds
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 06:25:41 pm »
They've moved to that here too, at least in places. But 'sell-by' is well-known, covers stuff that doesn't really need to be sold by then as well as stuff that does, everyone knows what I mean by it, and in full flow one tends not to keeps pausing to dot Ts and cross Is. :)
 

Offline Daixiwen

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I think the ultimate test would be to record a video with the CEO, give him two glasses of water, tell him that one of them is infected with E. Coli and ask him to drink the good one  ;D
 


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