Author Topic: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)  (Read 26096 times)

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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« on: August 22, 2023, 12:03:21 am »
Has anyone built a Tobiscope? What is the modern equivalent if there is any? The following has the CIA Freedom of Information Act instructions how to build a Tobiscope,  quoted at the start: "Although it was not possible to obtain a circuit design for the Tobiscope described in Ref 1, it is possible to piece together conversational information and propose critical circuit design features from which a person, skilled in electronics, could make an instrument." (see images below)

Background:

"A tobiscope (тобископ) is an electronic device able to detect acupuncture points, invented in the 1950s by the Soviet doctor M. K. Gaikin. Its name derives from the Russian words for "points" (точки), "biological" (биологический) and "scope" (скоп)[1]"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8651218/#:~:text=Studies%20from%20several%20research%20groups,body%20surface%20along%20the%20meridians.

"Over the last few decades there are various studies from biophysical approaches dealing with specificity for the acupuncture points (acupoints) and/or median lines in the body. Early studies from several independent laboratories demonstrated that acupoints possess the characteristics of low electrical resistance. An abundance of studies (1950–1980) from different international groups have demonstrated that acupoints possess characteristics of low electrical resistance and high electric conductance utilizing both humans and animals."





« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 02:03:24 pm by bonyz »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2023, 12:14:50 am »
Except for the probe material, it just sounds like you could use a regular multimeter.
First half of the document describes measuring skin resistance between two points.
Second half seems to be using different metal probes to measure small voltages generated by skin PH reacting with the metals.

The conclusions sound like dodgy pseudo science. Typical for the era.


 
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Offline moffy

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2023, 12:34:26 am »
One problem with it is that skin resistance varies sometimes dramatically from person to person, some people are just naturally resistive. :)
 

Offline BradC

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2023, 12:39:00 am »
One problem with it is that skin resistance varies sometimes dramatically from person to person, some people are just naturally resistive. :)

OI! That's my wife you're talking about! ;)
 

Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2023, 02:10:32 pm »
See attached sketch of how the Tobiscope looked like and more descriptions. There is no modern equivalent of this after 70 years?

It's not a pseudoscience of the 1950s but still valid up to the present day.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18240287/#:~:text=According%20to%20conventional%20wisdom%20within%20the%20acupuncture%20community%2C,by%20lower%20electrical%20impedance%20compared%20to%20adjacent%20controls.

"Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: a systematic review

Abstract
According to conventional wisdom within the acupuncture community, acupuncture points and meridians are special conduits for electrical signals. This view gained popularity after anecdotal reports and clinical studies asserted that these anatomical structures are characterized by lower electrical impedance compared to adjacent controls. To ascertain whether evidence exists to support or refute this claim, we conducted a systematic review of studies directly evaluating the electrical characteristics of acupuncture structures and appropriate controls. We searched seven electronic databases until August 2007, hand-searched references, and consulted technical experts. We limited the review to primary data human studies published in English. A quality scoring system was created and employed for this review. A total of 16 articles representing 18 studies met inclusion criteria: 9 examining acupuncture points and 9 examining meridians. Five out of 9 point studies showed positive association between acupuncture points and lower electrical resistance and impedance, while 7 out of 9 meridian studies showed positive association between acupuncture meridians and lower electrical impedance and higher capacitance. The studies were generally poor in quality and limited by small sample size and multiple confounders. Based on this review, the evidence does not conclusively support the claim that acupuncture points or meridians are electrically distinguishable. However, the preliminary findings are suggestive and offer future directions for research based on in-depth interpretation of the data."

You can test it yourself now!

 

Online TERRA Operative

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2023, 02:14:08 pm »
It's not a pseudoscience

Talks about acupuncture, etc.



uh huh.....  ::)
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2023, 02:09:05 am »
The primary structural elements of this antenna system are located at the etheric substance level rather than at the physi­cal substance level in order to explain the lack of major histological difference between.

Don't need to read further to know that it's bunk.
 
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Online TERRA Operative

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2023, 02:18:22 am »
It's time for this thread to be moved to the 'Dodgy Technology' section.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2023, 02:40:57 am »
Can you guys just teach me how to build the device that can detect Tiller monopoles? Do monopoles also induce normal currents?

No. To date, no magnetic monopoles have been detected. They are purely theoretical.
If I could, I'd be claiming the Nobel Prize before blabbing about it in a forum post.   ::)



« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 02:51:39 am by Kim Christensen »
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2023, 04:14:56 am »
The experiment was not repeatable, therefore the "Valentine's" findings were invalid. Quote from your article:

Quote
In experimental science, the most important thing is to be able to replicate your results, and a second monopole detection has never come to pass. As beautiful as a symmetric Universe might be, that simply doesn't appear to be the Universe we have. Nobody knows what happened to fool us into thinking we'd detected a magnetic monopole, but without repeat confirmation, we have no choice but to conclude it wasn't real. Magnetic monopoles, as far as we can tell, don't appear to exist.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 04:17:40 am by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2023, 05:07:51 am »
Go here and read his publications:
https://profiles.stanford.edu/blas-cabrera?tab=publications

Then build your own detector.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 05:09:48 am by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2023, 02:42:28 pm »
Op-amps (they sure as heck existed in 1980) are not a replacement for superconductors. Replicate the experiment in the paper exactly. Have sex in the same room as the detector. Report your findings here.
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2023, 04:40:25 pm »
If anyone got any idea how to build the detector without using liquid nitrogen, just let me know. The field doesn't necessarily have to be related to monopoles. Tiller just thought of it because the magnetic clue. It can be others like...
"Prana....

Room temperature superconductors don't exist.
You're just spewing nonsense and have no idea what you're even trying to detect. Therefore it's impossible for anyone to "build the detector" or show you how to do so.
This is what your "prana" sounds like to me.  ::)
 

Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2023, 11:29:45 pm »
Let's go back to the Tobiscope. It can help immensely in the thing about Trigger points defined by wikipedia as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_trigger_point

"Myofascial trigger points (MTrPs), also known as trigger points, are described as hyperirritable spots in the skeletal muscle. They are associated with palpable nodules in taut bands of muscle fibers.[1] They are a topic of ongoing controversy, as there is limited data to inform a scientific understanding of the phenomenon. Accordingly, a formal acceptance of myofascial "knots" as an identifiable source of pain is more common among bodyworkers, physical therapists, chiropractors, and osteopathic practitioners. Nonetheless, the concept of trigger points provides a framework which may be used to help address certain musculoskeletal pain.

The trigger point model states that unexplained pain frequently radiates from these points of local tenderness to broader areas, sometimes distant from the trigger point itself. Practitioners claim to have identified reliable referred pain patterns which associate pain in one location with trigger points elsewhere. There is variation in the methodology for diagnosis of trigger points and a dearth of theory to explain how they arise and why they produce specific patterns of referred pain.[2]"

It is related to the acupoints where Tiller monopoles flow or if you totally reject Tiller theory, then just nadis or conduits where dark matter substance flow much like bloodstream. In the theory of interactive dark matter. Although some physicists theorize that it can form atoms and make up dark matter chair and table, some believe they are most diffuse. Note interactive dark matter doesn't conflict with cosmological observations if they comprise only a subsector of it.

https://www.drgraeme.com/articles/2022/04/what-is-the-difference-between-trigger-points-acupressure-points-and-other-pressure-points

"To put it simply, trigger points, acupressure (acupuncture) points and shiatsu points come with completely different stories, but the points themselves are about 95% the same (1–6)⁠. The easiest way to explain this is that the originators of these systems have found exactly the same problems, but come up with a way to explain them based upon their knowledge at the time."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4508225/

"In a survey conducted in 2000, the vast majority of American Pain Society members believed MPS to be a distinct clinical entity, characterized by the finding of MTrPs14. A growing number of pain clinics are utilizing Travell's pioneering techniques for the evaluation and treatment of muscle pain disorders. Nevertheless, the lack of consistent nomenclature, universally accepted diagnostic criteria, objective assessments, and conclusive biopsy findings has led to much controversy and generally poor acceptance by mainstream medicine."

"Conclusion
To date, the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of MTrPs and their role in MPS remain unknown. Data have been published suggesting that MPS is a pain syndrome that can be acute or chronic, and that it involves muscle and fascia. The MTrP remains central to its diagnosis, and possibly its successful treatment. New methods of describing and imaging the MTrP as well as the milieu of the MTrP have suggested that there are a variety of objective findings associated with the syndrome and active MTrPs. Table 1 compares the contributions of Travell and Simons to the contemporary understanding of the MTrP."

Come on. Help build the Tobiscope so the doctors have tools to study the trigger points and countless others. If you don't want to build it. Then help me built it.

I'll pay you if you can help build it.



« Last Edit: August 29, 2023, 11:31:53 pm by bonyz »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2023, 10:00:31 pm »
If anyone got any idea how to build the detector without using liquid nitrogen, just let me know. The field doesn't necessarily have to be related to monopoles. Tiller just thought of it because the magnetic clue. It can be others like...
"Prana....

Room temperature superconductors don't exist.

You're just being excessively negative.
 

Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2023, 11:44:40 pm »


Here light is used. Is it laser? How to build the device?

https://www.opticsjournal.net/Articles/OJ789d12c07fd11ada/FullText

"Optically noninvasive measurement of the light transport properties of human meridians

To confirm the existence and properties of human meridians, the optical transport properties along the pericardium meridian and tissues around the pericardium meridian are studied noninvasively on twenty healthy volunteers in vivo and then compared with each other. Our study shows that the light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law. However, statistical analysis of the results suggests that the optical transport properties of human meridian differ from those of the surrounding tissues over a low modulated frequency range (P<0.01), and light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction. These findings not only indicate the existence of acupuncture meridian from the point of view of biomedical optics, but also shed new light on an approach to investigation of human meridians."
 

Online Bud

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2023, 03:43:51 am »
light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.
Quote
light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.
Do you see any problem with these two statements?
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2023, 04:31:12 am »
What is a human meridian? ::)
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2023, 05:22:27 am »
What is a human meridian? ::)

I would have thought that to be obvious:

nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Online Bud

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2023, 04:56:33 pm »
What is a human meridian? ::)

Apparently it is something that you use to prove it exists  ::)
Whatever that means
Quote
To confirm the existence and properties of human meridians, the optical transport properties along the pericardium meridian and tissues around the pericardium meridian are studied

E.g. to prove screwdrivers exist, use a screwdriver to drive a screw into a piece of wood.
This will scientifically prove that screwdrivers exist. 8)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 09:19:00 pm by Bud »
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Online Bud

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2023, 09:28:30 pm »
light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.
Quote
light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.
Do you see any problem with these two statements?

What is the problem of the statement? I read about Beer-Lambert Law
The problem with the statements is they are mutually exclusive (contradict each other). The first statement says attenuation is same in both directions, the second statement says attenuation is different for each direction. A Law does not matter.
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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2023, 01:58:25 am »
light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.
Quote
light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.
Do you see any problem with these two statements?

What is the problem of the statement? I read about Beer-Lambert Law
The problem with the statements is they are mutually exclusive (contradict each other). The first statement says attenuation is same in both directions, the second statement says attenuation is different for each direction. A Law does not matter.

In my quote. I didn't properly write P < 0.01. It may be same generally but in low modulated frequency range, it may vary. See the abstract and publication  details. Could it just be translated since chinese mainly don't speak or write english?

Also here is the description of the experimental setup. I can't repeat it because I don't want to work with liquid nitrogen and laser. Anyone can create them and try?

"The experimental setup is shown in Fig. 1. The He-Ne laser (Melles Griot, USA) was modulated in 10 Hz by
an optical chopper (SR540, Stanford Research Systems, USA). And then the modulated light was focused by
a lens into the source fiber with 600-μm core diameter (Ocean Optics, USA), which was put in a small stainless-
steel tube with about 2-mm inner diameter for easy controlling, and touched slightly with the skin surface.
The collection fiber was a two-fiber probe containing two 600-μm-core diameter fibers (Ocean Optics) which were
used to collect the emittance diffuse light from the meridian and non-meridian respectively. The light signals were
then conducted to a photomultiplier tube (PMT, Oriel, USA). The PMT amplified the light signals and con-
verted them into electronic current signals, which would be sent to a lock-in amplifier (SR850, Stanford Research
Systems, USA). The lock-in amplifier finally selected the electronic current signals according to the frequency
control signal. In this way, the signals from the meridian and non-meridian can be recorded, analyzed, and dis-
played in real time."
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2023, 02:06:49 am »
thats like the area between a tank top and short shorts
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2023, 03:09:45 am »
Quote
What do you make of the following illustration?

Looks like a marketing scam: Lots of words and pictures strung together in a meaningless sequence.
He wrote the book in 1979... And nothing has really happened since then. Probably because his theories didn't pan out.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2023, 03:22:43 am by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2023, 05:18:25 pm »
I don't know if anyone here is a medical researcher AND an electronics engineer. Since this is an EE forum, you need to state your requirements in "electrical language" and avoid the "medical language" as much as possible. So the probes & placement, biology, and mystical are up to you. Using your very first post as an example, you need to specify the electrical parameters of the stimulator you require:

Voltage range.
Current range.
Frequency range. (Maybe also wave shape if not just DC)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2023, 05:20:14 pm by Kim Christensen »
 


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