Tobiscope design (with instructions from the CIA)

[bonyz]

Has anyone built a Tobiscope? What is the modern equivalent if there is any? The following has the CIA Freedom of Information Act instructions how to build a Tobiscope,  quoted at the start: "Although it was not possible to obtain a circuit design for the Tobiscope described in Ref 1, it is possible to piece together conversational information and propose critical circuit design features from which a person, skilled in electronics, could make an instrument." (see images below)

Background:

"A tobiscope (тобископ) is an electronic device able to detect acupuncture points, invented in the 1950s by the Soviet doctor M. K. Gaikin. Its name derives from the Russian words for "points" (точки), "biological" (биологический) and "scope" (скоп)[1]"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8651218/#:~:text=Studies%20from%20several%20research%20groups,body%20surface%20along%20the%20meridians.

"Over the last few decades there are various studies from biophysical approaches dealing with specificity for the acupuncture points (acupoints) and/or median lines in the body. Early studies from several independent laboratories demonstrated that acupoints possess the characteristics of low electrical resistance. An abundance of studies (1950–1980) from different international groups have demonstrated that acupoints possess characteristics of low electrical resistance and high electric conductance utilizing both humans and animals."

[Kim Christensen]

Except for the probe material, it just sounds like you could use a regular multimeter.
First half of the document describes measuring skin resistance between two points.
Second half seems to be using different metal probes to measure small voltages generated by skin PH reacting with the metals.

The conclusions sound like dodgy pseudo science. Typical for the era.

[moffy]

One problem with it is that skin resistance varies sometimes dramatically from person to person, some people are just naturally resistive.

[BradC]

One problem with it is that skin resistance varies sometimes dramatically from person to person, some people are just naturally resistive.

OI! That's my wife you're talking about!

[bonyz]

See attached sketch of how the Tobiscope looked like and more descriptions. There is no modern equivalent of this after 70 years?

It's not a pseudoscience of the 1950s but still valid up to the present day.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18240287/#:~:text=According%20to%20conventional%20wisdom%20within%20the%20acupuncture%20community%2C,by%20lower%20electrical%20impedance%20compared%20to%20adjacent%20controls.

"Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: a systematic review

Abstract
According to conventional wisdom within the acupuncture community, acupuncture points and meridians are special conduits for electrical signals. This view gained popularity after anecdotal reports and clinical studies asserted that these anatomical structures are characterized by lower electrical impedance compared to adjacent controls. To ascertain whether evidence exists to support or refute this claim, we conducted a systematic review of studies directly evaluating the electrical characteristics of acupuncture structures and appropriate controls. We searched seven electronic databases until August 2007, hand-searched references, and consulted technical experts. We limited the review to primary data human studies published in English. A quality scoring system was created and employed for this review. A total of 16 articles representing 18 studies met inclusion criteria: 9 examining acupuncture points and 9 examining meridians. Five out of 9 point studies showed positive association between acupuncture points and lower electrical resistance and impedance, while 7 out of 9 meridian studies showed positive association between acupuncture meridians and lower electrical impedance and higher capacitance. The studies were generally poor in quality and limited by small sample size and multiple confounders. Based on this review, the evidence does not conclusively support the claim that acupuncture points or meridians are electrically distinguishable. However, the preliminary findings are suggestive and offer future directions for research based on in-depth interpretation of the data."

You can test it yourself now!

[TERRA Operative]

It's not a pseudoscience

Talks about acupuncture, etc.



uh huh..... 

[Kim Christensen]

The primary structural elements of this antenna system are located at the etheric substance level rather than at the physi­cal substance level in order to explain the lack of major histological difference between.

Don't need to read further to know that it's bunk.

[TERRA Operative]

It's time for this thread to be moved to the 'Dodgy Technology' section.

[Kim Christensen]

Can you guys just teach me how to build the device that can detect Tiller monopoles? Do monopoles also induce normal currents?

No. To date, no magnetic monopoles have been detected. They are purely theoretical.
If I could, I'd be claiming the Nobel Prize before blabbing about it in a forum post.   

[Kim Christensen]

The experiment was not repeatable, therefore the "Valentine's" findings were invalid. Quote from your article:

In experimental science, the most important thing is to be able to replicate your results, and a second monopole detection has never come to pass. As beautiful as a symmetric Universe might be, that simply doesn't appear to be the Universe we have. Nobody knows what happened to fool us into thinking we'd detected a magnetic monopole, but without repeat confirmation, we have no choice but to conclude it wasn't real. Magnetic monopoles, as far as we can tell, don't appear to exist.

[Kim Christensen]

Go here and read his publications:
https://profiles.stanford.edu/blas-cabrera?tab=publications

Then build your own detector.

[Kim Christensen]

Op-amps (they sure as heck existed in 1980) are not a replacement for superconductors. Replicate the experiment in the paper exactly. Have sex in the same room as the detector. Report your findings here.

[Kim Christensen]

If anyone got any idea how to build the detector without using liquid nitrogen, just let me know. The field doesn't necessarily have to be related to monopoles. Tiller just thought of it because the magnetic clue. It can be others like...
"Prana....

Room temperature superconductors don't exist.
You're just spewing nonsense and have no idea what you're even trying to detect. Therefore it's impossible for anyone to "build the detector" or show you how to do so.
This is what your "prana" sounds like to me. 

[bonyz]

Let's go back to the Tobiscope. It can help immensely in the thing about Trigger points defined by wikipedia as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_trigger_point

"Myofascial trigger points (MTrPs), also known as trigger points, are described as hyperirritable spots in the skeletal muscle. They are associated with palpable nodules in taut bands of muscle fibers.[1] They are a topic of ongoing controversy, as there is limited data to inform a scientific understanding of the phenomenon. Accordingly, a formal acceptance of myofascial "knots" as an identifiable source of pain is more common among bodyworkers, physical therapists, chiropractors, and osteopathic practitioners. Nonetheless, the concept of trigger points provides a framework which may be used to help address certain musculoskeletal pain.

The trigger point model states that unexplained pain frequently radiates from these points of local tenderness to broader areas, sometimes distant from the trigger point itself. Practitioners claim to have identified reliable referred pain patterns which associate pain in one location with trigger points elsewhere. There is variation in the methodology for diagnosis of trigger points and a dearth of theory to explain how they arise and why they produce specific patterns of referred pain.[2]"

It is related to the acupoints where Tiller monopoles flow or if you totally reject Tiller theory, then just nadis or conduits where dark matter substance flow much like bloodstream. In the theory of interactive dark matter. Although some physicists theorize that it can form atoms and make up dark matter chair and table, some believe they are most diffuse. Note interactive dark matter doesn't conflict with cosmological observations if they comprise only a subsector of it.

https://www.drgraeme.com/articles/2022/04/what-is-the-difference-between-trigger-points-acupressure-points-and-other-pressure-points

"To put it simply, trigger points, acupressure (acupuncture) points and shiatsu points come with completely different stories, but the points themselves are about 95% the same (1–6)⁠. The easiest way to explain this is that the originators of these systems have found exactly the same problems, but come up with a way to explain them based upon their knowledge at the time."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4508225/

"In a survey conducted in 2000, the vast majority of American Pain Society members believed MPS to be a distinct clinical entity, characterized by the finding of MTrPs14. A growing number of pain clinics are utilizing Travell's pioneering techniques for the evaluation and treatment of muscle pain disorders. Nevertheless, the lack of consistent nomenclature, universally accepted diagnostic criteria, objective assessments, and conclusive biopsy findings has led to much controversy and generally poor acceptance by mainstream medicine."

"Conclusion
To date, the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of MTrPs and their role in MPS remain unknown. Data have been published suggesting that MPS is a pain syndrome that can be acute or chronic, and that it involves muscle and fascia. The MTrP remains central to its diagnosis, and possibly its successful treatment. New methods of describing and imaging the MTrP as well as the milieu of the MTrP have suggested that there are a variety of objective findings associated with the syndrome and active MTrPs. Table 1 compares the contributions of Travell and Simons to the contemporary understanding of the MTrP."

Come on. Help build the Tobiscope so the doctors have tools to study the trigger points and countless others. If you don't want to build it. Then help me built it.

I'll pay you if you can help build it.

[SiliconWizard]

If anyone got any idea how to build the detector without using liquid nitrogen, just let me know. The field doesn't necessarily have to be related to monopoles. Tiller just thought of it because the magnetic clue. It can be others like...
"Prana....

Room temperature superconductors don't exist.

You're just being excessively negative.

[bonyz]

Here light is used. Is it laser? How to build the device?

https://www.opticsjournal.net/Articles/OJ789d12c07fd11ada/FullText

"Optically noninvasive measurement of the light transport properties of human meridians

To confirm the existence and properties of human meridians, the optical transport properties along the pericardium meridian and tissues around the pericardium meridian are studied noninvasively on twenty healthy volunteers in vivo and then compared with each other. Our study shows that the light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law. However, statistical analysis of the results suggests that the optical transport properties of human meridian differ from those of the surrounding tissues over a low modulated frequency range (P<0.01), and light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction. These findings not only indicate the existence of acupuncture meridian from the point of view of biomedical optics, but also shed new light on an approach to investigation of human meridians."

[Bud]

light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.

light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.

Do you see any problem with these two statements?

[SiliconWizard]

What is a human meridian?

[AVGresponding]

What is a human meridian?

I would have thought that to be obvious:

[Bud]

What is a human meridian?

Apparently it is something that you use to prove it exists 
Whatever that means

To confirm the existence and properties of human meridians, the optical transport properties along the pericardium meridian and tissues around the pericardium meridian are studied

E.g. to prove screwdrivers exist, use a screwdriver to drive a screw into a piece of wood.
This will scientifically prove that screwdrivers exist.

[Bud]

light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.

light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.

Do you see any problem with these two statements?

What is the problem of the statement? I read about Beer-Lambert Law

The problem with the statements is they are mutually exclusive (contradict each other). The first statement says attenuation is same in both directions, the second statement says attenuation is different for each direction. A Law does not matter.

[bonyz]

light propagating along the meridian and non-meridian directions both conform to the Beer's exponential attenuation law.

light attenuation along the pericardium meridian is significantly less than that along the non-meridian direction.

Do you see any problem with these two statements?

What is the problem of the statement? I read about Beer-Lambert Law

The problem with the statements is they are mutually exclusive (contradict each other). The first statement says attenuation is same in both directions, the second statement says attenuation is different for each direction. A Law does not matter.

In my quote. I didn't properly write P < 0.01. It may be same generally but in low modulated frequency range, it may vary. See the abstract and publication  details. Could it just be translated since chinese mainly don't speak or write english?

Also here is the description of the experimental setup. I can't repeat it because I don't want to work with liquid nitrogen and laser. Anyone can create them and try?

"The experimental setup is shown in Fig. 1. The He-Ne laser (Melles Griot, USA) was modulated in 10 Hz by
an optical chopper (SR540, Stanford Research Systems, USA). And then the modulated light was focused by
a lens into the source fiber with 600-μm core diameter (Ocean Optics, USA), which was put in a small stainless-
steel tube with about 2-mm inner diameter for easy controlling, and touched slightly with the skin surface.
The collection fiber was a two-fiber probe containing two 600-μm-core diameter fibers (Ocean Optics) which were
used to collect the emittance diffuse light from the meridian and non-meridian respectively. The light signals were
then conducted to a photomultiplier tube (PMT, Oriel, USA). The PMT amplified the light signals and con-
verted them into electronic current signals, which would be sent to a lock-in amplifier (SR850, Stanford Research
Systems, USA). The lock-in amplifier finally selected the electronic current signals according to the frequency
control signal. In this way, the signals from the meridian and non-meridian can be recorded, analyzed, and dis-
played in real time."

[coppercone2]

thats like the area between a tank top and short shorts

[Kim Christensen]

What do you make of the following illustration?

Looks like a marketing scam: Lots of words and pictures strung together in a meaningless sequence.
He wrote the book in 1979... And nothing has really happened since then. Probably because his theories didn't pan out.

[Kim Christensen]

I don't know if anyone here is a medical researcher AND an electronics engineer. Since this is an EE forum, you need to state your requirements in "electrical language" and avoid the "medical language" as much as possible. So the probes & placement, biology, and mystical are up to you. Using your very first post as an example, you need to specify the electrical parameters of the stimulator you require:

Voltage range.
Current range.
Frequency range. (Maybe also wave shape if not just DC)

[TimFox]

The human body is not ohmic:  therefore, the measured "resistance" will be a function of all those variables--voltage or current, and frequency.
What you actually measure is the current as a function of voltage (which is non-linear) or vice-versa, and that depends on frequency since high frequencies do not penetrate the conductive body fully.
The last point is well known in MRI, although it only becomes important somewhere around 10 MHz and above.

[Kim Christensen]

The Tobiscope was only designed to measure the resistance. Why did you mention voltage, current or frequency?

Because ohmmeters work by passing a current through whatever they're testing and measuring the resultant voltage drop across it. Voltage/Current = Resistance.
Usually it's a small DC current, but an AC current could be used in special situations.

[Kim Christensen]

There is nothing magic about wireless telemetry. This is where the writer starts drawing erroneous conclusions from bad data. Perhaps the FM signal had some interference or phase noise. Or maybe just a small 1mV galvanic effect, amplifier offset, etc:

[Kim Christensen]

The high frequences were taken from the baseline around 1mV. In transistors-based amplifiers in the 1970s. What are the baseline noises? Is it in mV or microV?

Considering that a cassette tape head output is in the range of 250uV at full volume, I don't think there should have been any problem in the 70's detecting 1mV audio signals.
Plus, transistor radios in those days would have RF receive sensitivities down on the 1 microvolt range as well.

Can the so called "small 1mV galvanic effect" be frequency dependent? How can amplifier offset create them?

Because they used the term "continuous millivoltage signal" I mistakenly thought they meant DC signal/offset.

But unless the whole experiment is isolated in a faraday cage, it's anyone's guess where this mystery signal (That you yourself can't detect) came from in Valerie's experiments.

Why is there a >-50dBV or >-41dBV in the Vertical 10-30 decibels (power)?

Decibels by themselves are simply a ratio. If you say 10db it is meaningless unless you specify a reference or are using it as a gain/loss.
That's the reason for the V at the end of -50dbV. It means -50db relative to 1V or in other words:
0dbV = 1V
-50dbV = 3.162 mV

[Kim Christensen]

Don't know about Mu Rooms, but I worked daily inside a faraday cage for several years with no ill effects. (Didn't spend the entire 8 hours in there. But 5-6hrs a day was common)
Faraday blocks EM fields such as radio signals which is what we used it for. Might have had Mu shielding properties too, but I'm not sure about that.
Possibly being locked in a smaller room for long periods would have psychological effects and that's what Valerie was really seeing and not due to the lack of Earth's magnetic field etc...

[Kim Christensen]

Actually, with any magnetic "shield", the magnetic flux is actually channeled through the material. Mu metal is a brand name like Kleenex... It's mostly nickel with some other metals. Mild steel also works pretty well at "shielding" against static magnetic fields. Not a bad summary here.

Faraday shielding depends on the material, it's thickness, and the frequency you're trying to block. It comes down to "skin depth".

[Kim Christensen]

I don't know anything about ghosts. Only electronics.

If there is a voltage gradient on the skin, or between inserted probes, you should be able to measure that.
Most of the articles you are quoting talk about small AC signals below 2Khz. So you could filter out any RF signals with low pass filters so there'd be no need for a faraday type cage unless you were really close to a large radio tower or something. What you'd need is a magnetic shielded room, either Mu metal or just mild steel to keep out low frequency electromagnetic interference. You could confirm this by having your test setup in such a room, shutting the door with no one inside, and letting the equipment record any signals. (Maybe attach some short wires to the probe ends to simulate a body acting as an antenna) Once you determine your noise baseline, and are happy with it, you could put a person in there and measure once again.

[Kim Christensen]

What is wrong if you don't filter the RF signals?

Strong RF signals can swamp/overload the amplifier so that low frequencies can't be seen. RF could also make it look like there is a low frequency signal when there isn't. (Strong RF could get demodulated by the PN junctions inside the ICs) (R3 R4 C1 C2 C3 do filter out some RF)

I just need to acquire audio range (0 to 20,000 Hz) frequencies.

By limiting the bandwidth, you can improve the signal to noise ratio. So if you had modified that 40Hz lowpass to be a 25Khz lowpass filter it would have been better than just disabling it.
Also, frequencies that are outside your PC's spectrum analyzer capability could also appear as strange anomalies. Depends on the hardware and software on the PC.

I'm trying to acquire the original equipments used by Valerie but only found Bio-sentry telemetry Receiver at ebay. Perhaps pure transistor only amplifiers can detect something (or aspects) our ICs can't? is this possible?

ICs have transistors or FETs inside them anyway so I don't think there's many magic to be gained by using discrete transistor amplifiers. As long as the noise floor is same/lower, dynamic range same/better, the frequency response is same/higher, etc, then the IC circuit should be just as good.

[Kim Christensen]

If I put the circuit inside a Faraday Cage. Would it work without using RF circuit filter (for example entirely removing the Butterworth low pass filter)?

The problem is, that the wider the bandwidth, the more difficult it is to pick the signal out of the noise. To get the best sensitivity you should limit the bandwidth to be slightly wider than the frequencies of interest. All amplifiers and circuits generate some noise.

Also she said "as strong as the millivoltage of a resting muscle". But the ABC of EMG article said there should be no voltage in a resting muscle. What you make of all this?

I really have no idea. 

What is really the baseline voltage of a resting muscle? Not even in microVolt?

"ABC of EMG" paper seems to say 10-15uV baseline which would be when the person is completely at rest (including their muscles).

[Kim Christensen]

What Faraday Cage for circuits do you know?

It's simply a metal box or mesh containing the circuit.

But I don't know what would happen if you drill a hole.

Depends on the size of the hole. The hole in the cage needs to be much smaller than the shortest wavelength you want to block.

Does circuit Faraday Cages have holes for wires?

They can. You'd have to put RFI filters at the entry point, otherwise the cage is useless.

If the current is floating in the air. How are you supposed to measure them.

You'd use an antenna or coil to pick the signal "out of the air"...

[Kim Christensen]

You mean in your last message about coils is only coils that measures magnetic field can measure negative charges just moving in the air with its own lines of force or conduits?   Or did you mean coils to pick up the EM field? But the negative charges moving is not the EM fields.

I meant that the coil would pickup any varying magnetic field. You seemed to think before that auras and monopoles would influence magnetic and electric fields.

Also about your "Strong RF signals can swamp/overload the amplifier so that low frequencies can't be seen."
Did you mean AM/FM radio stations in the air, or cellphones that are being used in the vicinity? Or even Wifi signal can disturb the amplifier?  Is there just no corner in the house that the amplifier won't be exposed to the "strong RF signals"? Or is this only temporary depending on locations?   Also In what aspect can they swamp/overload the amplifier? It can clip it you mean? Thanks.

Yup:  AM/FM radio stations, cellphones, wifi, lightning, plus any source of an electric spark such as motors, light switches, vehicle ignition systems, etc... Anything like that could overwhelm a system designed to detect signals in the microvolt range if it's inputs were not properly shielded and filtered.

Unfiltered signals, even if they don't saturate the amplifier, but are higher than the sample rate of your computer's ADC (Sound card?) will alias and appear as ghost signals at a lower frequency. See page 5 of this document.

[Kim Christensen]

What is the most sensitive conventional electronics with coils (that doesn't use superconductors) that can pickup the weakest magnetic field and what is range of the magnetic field or voltage/current possible? Is there a readily available system? I don't want to build it using breadboards because breadboards introduce other noises.

Using a coil was just one example. You'd probably buy a fluxgate magnetometer or something if you wanted to measure magnetic fields.

You mention in the microvolt range. No. It's just between 0.33mV and 0.66 mV or less than 1 millivolt but more than 0.33 millivolt. Not microvolt. How would that change your statements?

Not really: 0.33mV is 330uV. Even at this higher level, you could still get EM interference in this signal range. I have no idea of how electrically noisy your area is.

Let's say I can detect Valerie high frequency EMG. Do I get a Nobel Prize?  Or not since Valerie is the original discoverer?  What you think? But she is dead already. I need the 1 million rewards money to create a lab (separate from the house) and buy superconductors to study all these in more details.

Not necessarily. The scientific community would have to replicate your results first (Pass peer review), and then it has to meet their criteria:
"Contributions that have conferred the greatest benefit to humankind in the areas of Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, Economics and Peace."

So you see some waveforms. What do they mean? You'd have to prove that your mystics can see these auras and that they correspond to the waveforms you observe. It's a pretty high bar.

[Kim Christensen]

How do you view the microvolt or millivolt at Audacity. What does the dB in the noise correspond to in millivolts?

Almost impossible to determine with the data provided. This device is made for recording music. I doubt it's calibrated in any way. But...
You could get a signal generator and feed a sinewave of known level into the ADC and check what Audacity displays. Verify the level with an AC millivoltmeter in parallel as well. (In case of loading)
You could also verify what happens when you increase the signal frequency beyond the sample rate.
ie: Gather your own calibration data for science.

[bd139]

I said I’d never post on here again but quite frankly this thread nearly gave me bowel cancer.

[SiliconWizard]

 bonyz: nice troll!

[Canis Dirus Leidy]

By the way. This thread remind me about classic prank from the times of "Golden Age of EEG": covertly set the bandwidth to 8-13Hz, so that the input noises looked like an real EEG signal. It was used in two versions: 1) measuring "electric brain activity" of the floor rag (usually applied to overly enthusiastic residents and other newbies); 2) same thing but with skull instead (and this was reserved for scientific journalists).

[EE54]

Do you just throw random junk at the wall and see what will stick?
Like every time someone question what are you on about, you bring up something else? Dipole, Medians, Dark Matter...
Are you just going with the turboencabulator method of jargon spamming in hopes of us taking this seriously?

[Kim Christensen]

Are you just going with the turboencabulator method of jargon spamming in hopes of us taking this seriously?

I did link a TE video in this post. Maybe he caught on? 

[Kim Christensen]

Question. If the signal comes out loud and clear using a simulator and RFI doesn't swamp it.  It means with real signal, the signal would also come loud and clear?

Under the same conditions, yes it would.

Please give graphic examples how exactly RFI can swamp the lower signals.. because I couldn't even detect the interferences, Also in the circuit. The butterworth filter is after the amplifier. It means even if the amplifier is swamped, the low amplitude signal is still there and that's why it can pass through the butterworth filter?

If the out of band RFI drives the amplifier into clipping, or into non linearity, then it will effect the low amplitude signal so that it's distorted/attenuated before it reaches the butterworth filter. Thus the low amplitude signal comes out of the butterworth filter also distorted/attenuated. (I'll draw a diagram if this doesn't make sense to you)

[Cyberdragon]

bonyz: nice troll!

What do you mean troll. I'm not trolling and just sharing to make you understand better because building a scanner to image "energy field" is even better and as Silicon Wizard. You may be able to do it. In the following is how a clairvoyant Barbara Ann Brennan, a NASA scientist who wrote the book "Hands of Lights" described how the clairvoyant seeing works (see attached images if the following doesn't load up):

Look, I have a very open mind, more than probably 90%-99% of the people here, I believe in some very "oogie-boogie" stuff (and NO, I don't care what anyone here thinks). But what I DON'T do is go galavanting personal beliefs as hard science on a technical forum, and even I think this is some wacky far fetched bullshit. When you come up with a bunch of nonsense explanations for unexplained stuff it just makes it worse, you muddy the line between what just needs research to figure out and what's "fringe science". You claim to come here looking to build an instrument, then start waffling on about third eyes an aliens which has NOTHING to do with your original question/research. So now, even if you wanted to research whatever it was as a science you've now lumped it squarely into the "woo-woo" bin and now no real scientists will ever touch it even if it is something that can be studied as a science.

Do you just throw random junk at the wall and see what will stick?
Like every time someone question what are you on about, you bring up something else? Dipole, Medians, Dark Matter...
Are you just going with the turboencabulator method of jargon spamming in hopes of us taking this seriously?

Normally I wouldn't care, but some stuff gets unfairely lumped into the "woo-woo" bin, and while I personally don't think this is one of them, this kind of crap of going full "turboencabulor" on stuff is what does it. An example of something I personally think is unfairely "fringe science" and falls squarely in the known laws of physics is "earthquake lights" (did a college group paper on those) and the "Brown Mountain lights". I don't think there's anything mystical or "oogie-boogie" about it, just electrical discharges. But people like YOU keep on going "ooo aliens!" and whatnot which makes everyone else go "eh, it's probably just car headlights" (like the Paulding light is) without verifying it scientifically either. And what's funny is Norway has the Hessdalen lights, which I think are the same thing, and they have a whole research station set up! We have people throwing dynamite at rocks hoping to make them spark. (which is not what any of the papers on this stuff recommend doing, you need magnetohydrodynamic generators stationed at intervals then measure the feedback from the pulses to determine whether the ground has piezoelectric properties, and yet I see no equiment trucks out there) I'd rather people properly invest in learning about the natural world instead of verifying yet again that solar panels should not be flat and have stuff driven or sat on them.

I don't care what you believe, I have some wacky beliefs too, but which is it OP? Did you come here for science or just to tout your personal "woo-woo" beliefs on a technical forum where they have no place?! (something tells me that it can be scientifically proven to be the latter).

EDIT: No, I'm not a flerfer or conspiracy nut, I just like "oogie-boogie" stuff.

[AVGresponding]

I just like "oogie-boogie" stuff.

Please define "oogie-boogie"   

[Cyberdragon]

I just like "oogie-boogie" stuff.

Please define "oogie-boogie"   

For me, the usual "woo-woo", aliens/ghosts/cryptids etc. I do believe in weird stuff, and I want to, but I don't think anyone (this means OP) should go around harassing people with their personal beliefs (neither should anyone be harrassed for them as long as they don't go around trolling with a tinfoil hat, but OP has crossed that line). That's as far as I will elaborate, no debates please as it will end up going into religion/polotics and people might get banned or something.

[Kim Christensen]

Yes. Please draw any diagram because I can't find any illustration elsewhere of your ideas. Thanks.

Ok, I'll preface this by saying that my illustration is greatly oversimplified. But it should give you an idea of what I mean.
You have two frequency sinewaves. Red and green. When summed together (This is what would be coming from your probes) you'd get the black line.
You are only interested in the low level green sinewave but it's mixed in with the higher level Red sinewave. Combined, they drive the amplifier into clipping (Blue horizontal lines indicate the clipping level).
So when you pass this clipped black signal through a filter to get rid of the Red frequency component, you'll get the mangled green waveform below. It'll be uglier than that due to harmonics, etc but you get the general idea.
ie: So if EMI drives the first amplifier into clipping, it'll effect lower level signals that wouldn't drive the amplifier into clipping on their own.

[Bud]

. I know a pleasant woman and man who were raped by alligator like beings.

Did those charming people tell you what a reptiloid's genitalia look like? Shape/size, shaft/balls, anything unusual? Did the rapist alligators experience orgasm? Did the woman get pregnant with little alligators?

[Cyberdragon]

. I know a pleasant woman and man who were raped by alligator like beings.

Did those charming people tell you what a reptiloid's genitalia look like? Shape/size, shaft/balls, anything unusual? Did the rapist alligators experience orgasm? Did the woman get pregnant with little alligators?

[Insert scene from The Shape of Water where she tells her coworker she had sex with a seamonster]

OP sort of got the hint, but still did it again. I'm out!

[bd139]

. I know a pleasant woman and man who were raped by alligator like beings.

Did those charming people tell you what a reptiloid's genitalia look like? Shape/size, shaft/balls, anything unusual? Did the rapist alligators experience orgasm? Did the woman get pregnant with little alligators?

Like a duck but the other way round. Obviously so you don’t get any duck reptile hybrids.

[TimFox]

. I know a pleasant woman and man who were raped by alligator like beings.

Did those charming people tell you what a reptiloid's genitalia look like? Shape/size, shaft/balls, anything unusual? Did the rapist alligators experience orgasm? Did the woman get pregnant with little alligators?

50 years ago, on a US comedy TV show (ABC Comedy News), two abductees were interviewed about their experience.
The lady (played by Fannie Flagg) said that the alien smoked after sex.
The gentleman (played by Kenneth Mars) objected, saying that the aliens never used tobacco products of any kind.
The lady retorted, "Who said anything about tobacco?  He smoked!"

[Kim Christensen]

Many thanks for all your tips Kim and your excellent illustration. But I couldn't get RFI that can affect the circuit badly enough for 1mV signal to be clipped like that.

Then you probably don't have to worry about it. It's just a possibility to be aware of.

What particular circuit can you share where RFI like am station signal can drive 1mV to that kind of distortion?

Back in the day (70-80s), there used to be a local AM station tower on one of the mountains in my area. People who also lived on that mountain had all kinds of problems with RFI. ie: A standard garage door remote wouldn't work because the high level RF would swamp the crappy receiver in the motor unit.

Also why did you work inside Faraday Cage. What circuits (or source of RFI) did you do that can drive 1mV signal so badly?

I worked in a naval shipyard. There were welders, plasma cutters, etc in the area randomly emitting EMI. Then within our own electronics shop, others were testing high power transmitters, etc.
It would be quite annoying if you were trying to repair a radio with marginal sensitivity with random EMI in the area. Or try and diagnose sensitive test gear with the shields off.
But about 90% of the time, keeping the shielded room's door closed was about keeping the riffraff out. 
Then there were also the times we wanted to work on an emergency beacon. While we'd still notify the proper people that we were going to do so, to avoid possible disruptions to a real emergency, we'd take the beacon into our cage to work on it in case we accidentally set it off.

[Kim Christensen]

The only theory that makes sense is these are from dark matter universe,...

Not that I really want to get into this, but "dark matter" is just a term scientists use to make the math work.
ie: The rate of our universe's expansion cannot be explained by gravity unless more matter is present than can be seen... In other words we can't see all the matter in the universe to explain it. But this don't make it some weird force or anything.

[bd139]

It's aliens. It's always the aliens. Build a wall in space quick.

[SiliconWizard]

The rate of our universe's expansion has to do with dark energy, not dark matter.

Nah, it's all about dark fluid and basic fluid mechanics.

[babysitter]

Welcome to "Using EMI and random noise effects to improve your delusions"

(Am I a certified CIA psy-op attacker now?)

[AVGresponding]

(Am I a certified CIA psy-op attacker now?)

idk, can you kill goats by staring at them?

[Kim Christensen]

Debunk.... This line kind of sums it up:

It has long been known that the brain sends signals (e.g. between 20 and 100 Hz) to muscles, and that simultaneous measurements of the brain and muscles show coherent energy patterns, suggesting that there is one connected (bio-)field, rather than only local mechanisms.

Well, duh! Your brain sends signals via nerves to your muscles, so "coherent energy patterns" are a given. No need for "bio field" or the cha cha. No mystery here.
Plus their study sample size was too small and it wasn't a double blind test. The whole "spiritual" mumbo jumbo was unscientific to say the least.

So I couldn't afford it. It has this description (in Europe, they reversed the comma and dot) but what does 2.4576 Mhz mean? 2,4576 Mhz? What's that?

They mean 2.4576Mhz which is the ADC sample rate. They are over sampling 64x so:
2.4576Mhz / 64 = 38,000 samples per second per channel.

[bonyz]

Debunk.... This line kind of sums it up:

It has long been known that the brain sends signals (e.g. between 20 and 100 Hz) to muscles, and that simultaneous measurements of the brain and muscles show coherent energy patterns, suggesting that there is one connected (bio-)field, rather than only local mechanisms.

Well, duh! Your brain sends signals via nerves to your muscles, so "coherent energy patterns" are a given. No need for "bio field" or the cha cha. No mystery here.

Naw. There is a concept in neuroscience called Corticomuscular coherence. This is another pathway besides the usual action potential known by most, even high schooler. He has PH.D. in Psychology and others. He put the reference "12" referring to

REVIEW ARTICLE
Corticomuscular Coherence: A Review
Mima, Tatsuya; Hallett, Mark
Author Information
Journal of Clinical Neurophysiology 16(6):p 501, November 1999.

"
Abstract
Summary

Corticomuscular coherence measured between electroencephalography (EEG), magnetoencephalography, or local field potentials and electromyography (EMG) should be helpful in understanding the cortical control of movement. EEG–EMG coherence and phase spectra depend on the types of EEG derivation and current source density function of EEG appears to be the most appropriate for computation of EEG–EMG coherence. A new model for the interpretation of the phase spectra (“constant phase shift plus constant time lag model”) shows that cortical surface negative potentials are phase-locked to EMG firing. There are functional differences of EEG–EMG coherence among the alpha, beta, and gamma bands suggesting differences in their possible generator mechanisms. Since corticomuscular coherence is a noninvasive measure of corticomotoneuronal function in a specific frequency range, clinical application of this method might be very fruitful in tremor research.""

I went to the publications and whole article costs $47 so didn't buy it. But more reference about it with full article in:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00100/full

.... "Corticomuscular coherence is a common and useful method to study the mechanism of cerebral cortex’s control of muscle activity. It reveals functional connection between the cortex and muscles during continuous muscle contractions. The origin of CMC is the communication in corticospinal pathways between primary motor cortex and muscles."

Plus their study sample size was too small and it wasn't a double blind test. The whole "spiritual" mumbo jumbo was unscientific to say the least.

I have over 50 neuroscience books and been trying to figure out how the brain is connected to this biofield. So it is still work in progress. Lions and tigers have incredible reflexes. So brain and nervous system are very superior and enough for unconscious processes. But somehow evolution has adapted (for lack of better description) dark matter into our body, which is extension of our brain. I'm still trying to figure out the exact mechanism of interactions.

About chakras. I'm so sure of it I'm willing to give one million dollars if it didn't exist. Lol.

So I couldn't afford it. It has this description (in Europe, they reversed the comma and dot) but what does 2.4576 Mhz mean? 2,4576 Mhz? What's that?

They mean 2.4576Mhz which is the ADC sample rate. They are over sampling 64x so:
2.4576Mhz / 64 = 38,000 samples per second per channel.

About "In addition, a powerful floating point Digital Signal Processor performs oversampling and real-time filtering of the biosignal data (between 0 Hz – 2.400 Hz). Therefore, a typical sampling frequency of 256 Hz yields an oversampling rate of 9.600."

So their bio-amplifier can do 0 to 2400 Hz?  Why does a typical sampling frequency of 256 Hz yields an oversampling rate of 9600 Hz?  And what is the oversampling for the 2400 Hz?

You described previously:

By limiting the bandwidth, you can improve the signal to noise ratio. So if you had modified that 40Hz lowpass to be a 25Khz lowpass filter it would have been better than just disabling it.

You said that "By limiting the bandwidth, you can improve the signal to noise ratio". Supposed my module has 0 to 5kHz bandwidth versus 0-700 kHz bandwidth, and say there are no RFI interferences but merely the internal noise. How could internal noise form from larger bandwidth distort the signal? I mean. If my signal to noise ratio is low due to very wide bandwidth.  I can still see 1mV signal in in spite of the noises, isn't it? How can the 1mV become invisible due to internet noises?? (note this is not same case as in your illustration drawing when there are external interferences).

[bd139]

https://journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2013&issue=06000&article=00025&type=Fulltext

"Since it has proved impossible to find consistent evidence after more than 3000 trials, it is time to give up. It seems very unlikely that the money that it would cost to do another 3000 trials would be well-spent."

aka this whole damn thing is bullshit.

[Kim Christensen]

White noise occurs evenly at all frequencies. So if you had 10mW of total noise energy between 0Hz and 10Khz, then you would only have 5mW of total noise energy between 0Hz and 5Khz.

[Kim Christensen]

You'd put a basic filter before the amplifier to minimize IMD (Because no amplifier is perfect) and the chance of overloading. Then a 2nd filter after it to filter out of band noise generated by the amplifier and provide further reduction of out of band signals that got through the 1st filter. (Because again, nothing is perfect)

[Kim Christensen]

Are you familiar with the Biomation Transient Recorder No. 802 mentioned above? How is it supposed to work?

No but it sounds like she used this to record the waveforms and then used it to play it back for display on the scope and spectrum analyzer. So any voltages and readings there could be meaningless.

Also  Hunt claimed to adjust her oscilloscope to "low 0-30 millivoltages with a sweep speed of from 5 to 50 milliseconds per centimeter based on the frequencies of the waveform.

Again it doesn't make much sense... Going by that (5 ms per square) then the highest frequency I see on the scope is around 400Hz, yet the spectrum analyzer says 800Hz.

I haven't used a large oscilloscope before, only small one like a multimeter or the F-Nirst DSO-TC3. It doesn't have centimeter scale. What is the sweep speed of from 5 to 50 milliseconds per centimeter in Hunt description?

Scopes have a grid. So a 10cm wide screen would have 1cm squares. Perhaps this is what she meant.

Also please refer to the spectrum analyzer result at right of bottom image above. Can any old Spectrum Analyzer display it like that (in the right)? Or is it a drawing? If it came from the analyzer itself. Why is there a 100kHz at top?

I think the color legend at the bottom were edited in. Otherwise it looks like a screen photo. I think that 100Khz is really 1.00Khz, so it has a span of 0-1000Hz.

And most important. Based on the amplitudes of the waveforms (again at the right.. noting that the left is photograph from her oscilloscope using the Transient recorder). Can one figure out what milliVoltage is the original? Like if you use spectrum analyzer on a waveform, does it maintain the amplitude values of the original waveform?

Since it was recorded by the Biomation Transient Recorder and then played back for analysis, it's anyone's guess what the levels actually were.

[Kim Christensen]

What do you mean the higher frequency you see on the scope is around 400Hz?
Did you mean 400Hz in  your scope? Also the spectrum analyzer doesn't say 800Hz. Where did you get the 800Hz?

Not my scope. 400Hz on the scope screenshot and info you posted. 5ms per cm (division) as the fastest sweep. I saw what looked like a period of 1/2 a division (2.5ms) which equals 400Hz ( 1/2.5ms )
If the sweep was even slower, then the frequency on the scope would be much lower... But on the spectrum posted we see a bump just below 800Hz... (So maybe more like 875Hz or something. Hard to tell from the photo) It's just a guess and is the best I can do with the info provided. I mean, she gives a broad range for sweep speed (5 to 50ms per cm) but never says what the speed was for the screenshot.

How did you compute 3.162mV from -50db?
In the above spectrum analyzer value. It's -41dbV. What formula did you convert it to millivolt?

I just used a calculator website like this one to get the RMS value. You might prefer 2x peak value if you're comparing it to a waveform on a scope.

Also what does 10dB/30Hz mean in the screen above?

I think it means "power spectral density" ie: There's a certain bandwidth that the spectrum analyzer displays as a single bump even though it could actually be multiple "bumps".

[Kim Christensen]

Did you mean by "bump" just below 800hz as the higher amplitude signal of the fourier transform like in the following?

I meant on the spectrum analyzer image. See the "Red-Green" image below.

In the image above I found at the net. Do you think a Fourier transform frequency can have amplitude greater than the original (the first waveform transformed or is it wrong)?

It shouldn't if things are done right.

In the spectrum. -41 dbV corresponds to 8.912mV.
Does it mean the Hunt spectrum analyzer display from top to bottom is 8.912mV? If so, then the highest Fourier frequency amplitude near 800 Hz (your bump) is about 5mV?

Traditionally that number refers to the top line (reference level) on a spectrum analyzer but it's probably the bottom line because of the "greater than" symbol in "> -41dBV". Then each vertical division would be either a 10db or 2db step. (But it could be anything)  But the vertical scale could also be linear and not log. No way to tell without Hunt telling you somewhere in the docs.

It doesn't make sense. Why can't a Fourier breakdown correspond to the amplitude of the highest frequency like in the illustration above?  Because if can correspond, then the waveform is 5mV.

It could tell us if we knew how much it was amplified before entering a calibrated spectrum analyzer and we knew the settings on the instrument. But we don't know that.

She mentioned her oscilloscopes were set 0 to 30mV. But the original bio-signal is around 1 to 10mV for EMG.

First pls don't miss the last message where I asked you for 4 times already if you can tell the original waveform amplitude even approximately by the spectrum analyzer amplitudes, so kindly reply in my last message.

See "Cant say" image below. There's no way to know, because we don't know what the "Biomation Transient Recorder" did to the signal before it reached the scope and spectrum analyzer:

[Kim Christensen]

Hunt was very poor in electronics and physics. One giveaway was she said she used speed of 5 ms which is equal to  200Hz only. So how could it display the 1000 Hz? If Hunt was poor in electronics. She could have fabricated the waveforms afterwards or beforehand.

I think she played back the waveforms at a slower speed when she displayed them on the scope. This would explain the slower sweep speed. (You can still see a higher frequency signal on the scope; it would just appear as a solid bar.)

Read this again carefully. Especially the very last sentence:

[Kim Christensen]

In his vertical labels like "Power normalized values" or "power Zstand". Do you have idea what he meant and what amplitudes it is describing.

Nope. I believe it has been deliberately obfuscated.

[Kim Christensen]

Hunt was very poor in electronics and physics. One giveaway was she said she used speed of 5 ms which is equal to  200Hz only. So how could it display the 1000 Hz? If Hunt was poor in electronics. She could have fabricated the waveforms afterwards or beforehand.

This is confusing. I mean. If you slow it down and still see the higher frequency signal on the scope (of Hunt as you described above), and it appears as solid bar. But Hunt waveform was not solid bar. Please elaborate what you mean. With my small oscilloscope. I couldn't vary the source speed so can't visualize what you are saying.

Ok... I wrote that poorly. If the sweep speed on the scope is too slow for the frequency, you'd still see that it exists, but it would appear as a solid bar. Normally when you see that, you'd increase the scope's sweep speed so you can see the waveform. But that's not what Hunt did. She kept the scope sweep the same and slowed the playback of the waveform (Lowering the playback frequency) using the Biomation Transient Recorder so she could get a good picture. A least that's how I read it:
"To store the waveform and expand and project it on an oscilloscope"

Where is the EMG sensor above? She used EMG sensor to detect the skin frequencies and not just Transient Recorder.

The sensor is on the human body at the left. Transient Recorder records the output of the sensor. Then the data is played back later and analyzed with the scope and SA.

[EE54]

The only thread that can top this is that guy who made a voltage standard which he claims outperform commercial ones using instructions given ti him by God.

[coppercone2]

how u know its not like 'the mist'

i don't wanna help u measure shit ne more b4 u open some spider hole. dis starts as some kinda goat farm and it ends up with red devils trying to take ur land

[bd139]

That does it. I'm moving to Mars away from these crazy people.

[coppercone2]

u dun wanna go to that red devil planet

one day ur gonna be digging in ur corn plot and ur gonna find this cube and its gonna be like that movie with the magical xenomorphs

[EE54]

https://www.pranichealing.com.au/pages/the-chakras
 .............................
..............................
What has this got to do with the Tobiscope?

I'm wondering that myself. How about you just stick to that instead of replying with an entire short story about a bunch of unrelated people.
Like a story a bout how Tom from Canada can "allegedly" move spec of sands with his mind is interesting but not really related to the subject at hand.

[EE54]

Except for the probe material, it just sounds like you could use a regular multimeter.
First half of the document describes measuring skin resistance between two points.
Second half seems to be using different metal probes to measure small voltages generated by skin PH reacting with the metals.

The conclusions sound like dodgy pseudo science. Typical for the era.

Everything starts with a first step. This doesn't belong to pseudoscience of the 1950s but is still relevant now. That's the point of posting background (but I'll erase them anyway soon).

Let's go back to the main topic of Tobiscope at hand and end it with the topic.

You mentioned you can use multimeter for the Tobiscope. In the following which I got 20  year ago and locally made in the Philippines.



When I put the probe in my skin, I couldn't get any ohm reading. It's infinity or no contact. What does your multimeter show? What really is the resistance between skin points? The multimeter lowest setting is 400 Ohms and it should be able to measure say 5 ohms.

https://www.digitimer.com/product/human-neurophysiology/amplifier-accessories/d175-electrode-impedance-meter/



Also how does a multimeter in the ohm measurement compare to skin impedance meter? Aren't they the same?
The above costs $350 from UK. If I'll just get a multimeter for both Tobiscope and Skin Impedance meter function. What is the most accurate multimeter in the world that can measures up to 0.00000001% accurate resistance?

First, try setting your multimeter to a higher range (400k or 4M), when I try measuring my skin resistance with a multimeter, it measures in the range of several thousands ohms or more.
Second, I don't know how those skin impedance meter work so I refrain from commenting on that.
Thirdly, you want to measures resistance with 0.00000001% accuracy. That's 0.0001 ppm uncertainty.
Freaking primary labs using Quantum Resistance Standard, the most accurate resistance standard currently available, can only achiever like 0.06 ppm uncertainty.
https://xdevs.com/article/si2019/#qhrohm
Why on Earth would you need that ridiculous level of accuracy?

[Kim Christensen]

You mentioned you can use multimeter for the Tobiscope. In the following which I got 20  year ago and locally made in the Philippines.
When I put the probe in my skin, I couldn't get any ohm reading. It's infinity or no contact. What does your multimeter show? What really is the resistance between skin points? The multimeter lowest setting is 400 Ohms and it should be able to measure say 5 ohms.

The resistance you measure will depend on the probe material, surface area, how moist your skin is, how hard you squeeze the probes, etc.
Try it on the higher ranges first like the 4M range.

Also how does a multimeter in the ohm measurement compare to skin impedance meter? Aren't they the same?

Ohm meters work by putting out a voltage and measuring the current that flows. They can also work by putting out a constant current and measuring the voltage.
Even if they use the same techniques, different meters can use different voltages and currents which will effect readings on objects that are not purely "resistive".
ie: Things like semi conductors which have a non linear resistance. Or have voltages of their own such as the galvanic effect of probes on slightly acidic skin.

[AVGresponding]

Resistance is a DC measurement, impedance is an AC measurement. It will vary according to the same physical factors as resistance but also will be capacitance, inductance, and frequency dependant.

[Kim Christensen]

The above costs $350 from UK. If I'll just get a multimeter for both Tobiscope and Skin Impedance meter function. What is the most accurate multimeter in the world that can measures up to 0.00000001% accurate resistance?
----
The impedance values that the D175 can display are 0, 0.5, 2, 3, 5, 7, 12, 20, 30, 50 kohm.

Think about that unit for a bit... How could it display an impedance with any kind of precision? For example, the 20K LED is probably going to light up for any resistance between 16K - 25K. So an accuracy of 0.0000001% would be meaningless. Heck, an accuracy of 1% would be virtually irrelevant at that level of resolution.

Resistance is a DC measurement, impedance is an AC measurement. It will vary according to the same physical factors as resistance but also will be capacitance, inductance, and frequency dependant.

You're right. Just looked at the spec sheet and it outputs a 30Hz biphase squarewave to measure the impedance, so it'll give a different reading than the ohm meter:

[Kim Christensen]

What will happen if the frequency is 1000Hz insteaed of 30Hz. I mean, will the impedance of the electrode increase or decrease?

I don't really know. I usually probe circuit boards and not human bodies... Don't forget the probe gel... 

You could buy an impedance analyzer that works across multiple frequencies... But it won't be cheap.

[TimFox]

Look up "Kelvin probe" in google, not "Kevin probe", and you will find lots of details about this common construction.

[Kim Christensen]

Do you know a ready made unit where Kelvin Probe is used?

There are many. The other thing it can be called is 4-wire measurement, because a Kelvin connection uses 4 wires/contact points.
There are many ohmmeters, LCR meters, etc that are capable of both 2-wire and 4-wire connection.

Have you used one? It uses principle of capacitive coupling.

I have used several, but nothing like the SKP5050 with it's robotic scanning arm. None of them used capacitive coupling either. They all had 4 physical contact points with the device under test. (DUT)
The Kelvin thing is just a minor detail about the SKP5050 (I'm not even sure if it qualifies as using Kelvin measurement techniques). You can't really compare a Kelvin ohm or LCR meter to that thing.

I can't use the Kevin Probe because of need to make big Faraday Cage. Does it cost thousands of dollars? If you have photo of it. Please share.

You don't need a Faraday Cage to use a normal kelvin probe setup. But if you could afford to buy the SKP5050, which needs it, you could afford to built one.
Some DC Kelvin LCR/ohm meters do cost thousands of dollars. You can DIY a DC Kelvin test with two regular multimeters, resistor, and a power supply if you're willing to do the math.
I am retired now. So no photos available.

[Kim Christensen]

My questions regarding the antenna. He said "In the near field, the energy is mathematically imaginary and is large reactive" and yet below he described "Conversely, via the use of small electric and magnetic field probes inserted at various locations in this near-field region, one can run diagnostic study on the functional state of this dipole antenna".

When he says, "mathematically imaginary" he means imaginary numbers as used in mathematics. An example of an imaginary number would be the square root of a negative number.
As for imaginary numbers in regards to antennas, you can read more about that here.

My question is this. Since the near field is alleged imaginary, how can probes work with it? What's the conventional views of this?

It is real. It's just mathematically described using imaginary numbers.

[Kim Christensen]

What happens if pin 6 (A4) and 8 (A2) tied together? How does it differ to the pins 20 (-CE) and 22 (-OE) tied together.

Well, first I'll say that his diagram with the 3 EEPROMs makes no sense as drawn. He has the address (A0-A12) and data (D0-D7) lines floating. -CE and -OE are the Chip Enable and Output Enable lines. It looks like he's just randomly programming data into the EEPROMs by letting the pins float while pulsing the WR (write) line with oscillators. By grounding A4 and A2, it would just mean that some areas of memory would remain blank and never get programmed with random data. He doesn't specify any part number for the EEPROMs on the diagram. It is possible that they are actually UVEPROMS which are light sensitive with their window uncovered and are not EEPROMs which have no window.
Perhaps, by having  A4 and A2 grounded he ended up seeing patterns in the data which he ascribed to "imprinting", where as in reality all he was seeing was the bit pattern in the EEPROM generated by unprogrammed data cells and mistakenly attributed it to transferred intelligence.

[Bud]

Maybe that contruption would have worked better if he connected supply voltage to the oscillators 

[Kim Christensen]

Here is the 1 oscillator design and his emphasizing it doesn't follow conventional connections:

Yea, he's probably just using those premade crystal oscillators in a can with TTL/CMOS output.

Is there semiconductor inside an EEPROM?

Yup... It's a silicon chip just like other ICs... Basically stores data on an array of floating MOSFET gates..

If I actually believed in this stuff, I'd try something much simpler. I'd think it would be much easier to "concentrate my mind" on a single object rather than manipulate a few hundred thousand MOSFETS inside a tiny chip.
ie: I'd try a MOSFET with a floating gate. Then have a LED via a resistor connected between the drain and battery+ (source would go to battery-). If I could turn the LED on/off at will with my mind, by changing the charge on the gate via thinking, and demonstrate sending Morse code, I'd be getting the Nobel myself.

[TimFox]

In the tabulated list of exotic fields in that book, there is mention of "N rays", discovered by Blondlot (at Nancy, hence the name) in 1903, while everyone was excited about the newly-discovered X rays in a different country.
They are a textbook case of "bad science", where a putative weak effect was used to verify a strong cause.
See  https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200708/history.cfm
Their debunking by Robert Wood of Johns Hopkins in 1904 is a textbook case of how to debunk a claim.

[EE54]

So you are just going to keep throwing stuff at us and expect us to try and make sense all of it for you?
Like every message you bring up some weird concepts from some random book or website we never heard of before.
Also, why do you keep copy and paste huge chunk of texts from your sources? It makes your messages really messy and hard to navigate.
Just give us the link then we can read for ourselves if we wish to.

[Kim Christensen]

Let me mention one above. Thomas Galen Hieronymus who used the word "Eloptic Energy" for the modern Bio-field.
He was an electrical engineer like you guys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine
Once he put plants in complete darkness in his basement. There were control plants. For the plants where he connected wire to the top in the house. It produced green leaves even in complete darkness. I know chlorophyll needs photons. But somehow he described the wires able to transmit Eloptic Energy that can make the plants in complete dark sprout green.

It won't work. But you're free to try it yourself and debunk my disbelief. It would be a simple experiment for you to try.

[Bud]

Here is the 1 oscillator design and his emphasizing it doesn't follow conventional connections:

Ofcourse it does not, because that schematic does not make sense. There is no LM7805 voltage regulator with such pinout, the LED diode will never turn on, and you can't do anything with the memory ICs with the wiring shown. Let me introduce you to device's datasheets. It will help you look less stupid next time.

[Kim Christensen]

They consulted clairvoyants to check it.

I don't think it matters what you use. It could be a ping pong ball, a brick, a crystal, a badly wired EEPROM circuit, etc. The clairvoyants will tell you what you want to hear.

[EE54]

What happens to each floating MOSFET gates when the EEPROM is powered off versus than when it isn't powered on? I know the address line can be floating if not grounded. But why does it float? I mean, if not grounded, why can the MOSFET gates value change?

I think it's due to stray charge building up on gates of MOSFETs and logic ICs, cuasing them to change values. The same thing can happens with bench muitimeter with high input impedance. Charge builds up on the open input, causing the muitimeter to read a rising voltage. It disappears as soon as you connect an actual voltage source to it.

[Kim Christensen]

Ok. Here is a challenge. If you can debunk the Pranic healing organization (via the Canada branch).

The burden of proof is upon the people making the claims. So it is up the Pranic healing organizations to scientifically prove that their methods work. They haven't done so, therefore they are auto-debunked.

I posted this paragraph here because I'd like to ask what is meant by a 3-stage vacuum tube RF amplifier? What's the equivalent now? and What's a wire bifilar coil? Do we still use this now? Can you build everything using modern IC based?

It just means that the amplifier is using three vacuum tube amplifiers daisy-chained together for a higher gain than a single stage would provide. A modern amplifier could easily match or exceed the performance of the old tube RF amp.
A bifilar wound coil has two windings that are wound in parallel instead of separately.

[Kim Christensen]

Actually they already have. If you will google "Pranic healing scientific experiments". There are just too many like the following I randomly clicked:
see other experiments like it at https://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Pranic%20Healing%20Research.pdf

That's not a scientific paper. Not even close. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Hieronymus has even Ph.D. in physics. If you have time. Please look at it.

A quote from Wiki under Scientific reception:
"The claims of Hieronymus about "eloptic" emanations were heavily criticized by the scientific community as having no basis in reality. His machines have been compared to the quack devices of Albert Abrams and have also been described as an example of pseudoscience."

[Kim Christensen]

Is pranic healing canada near or far from your home?

There is, but I'm not going to pay $350-$500 for a course in 2029 (or at any other time for that matter). Probably a typo since, the other course is listed as being held in 2020... 
Maybe the course prerequisite is being able to time travel?

Noticed their little disclaimer at the bottom:
"Public Notice: Pranic Healing is not intended to replace orthodox medicine, but rather to complement it. If symptoms persist or the ailment is severe, please immediately consult a Medical Doctor or a Certified Pranic Healer. Pranic Healers are not Medical Doctors, but Medical Doctors can be Pranic Healers. Pranic Healers should not make Medical Diagnosis. Pranic Healers should not prescribe Medications and / or Medical Treatments. Pranic Healers should not interfere with prescribed Medications and / or with Medical Treatments. Master Choa Kok Sui - Founder of Modern Pranic Healing - January 12, 2006"

Looks like someone doesn't have 100% faith in their own methods...

[SiliconWizard]

This is an absolutely required statement for anyone practising "healing" activities. What it means is that the law doesn't have faith in their methods, and in most countries it's against the law to practise what could be thought of as medicine by the unsufficiently warned patient. So whether they have faith in their own methods or not, they don't have a choice if they want to keep practising and not end up in jail.

[EE54]

You lost me.

[Kim Christensen]

c) I wouldn't want someone aiming a 15 to 25 watt laser at my body! 

Sounds like dangerous bullshit to me.

[TERRA Operative]

Holy shit there is some real bullshit in this thread. 

[TimFox]

What "substance(s) used to produce laser light" contain 50% to 80% carbon?
See note a) by Mei Ling near the end of that excerpt.

[TimFox]

If it doesn't use photons, it's not a laser.
Feel free to follow your own mythology, but don't confuse technical terms.

[EE54]

I’m sorry but if you want to speak in terms of science then ask me to watch Final Fantasy as it could help me understand your ideas of pranic healing, it gets kinda hard to take you even semi seriously.

[coppercone2]

FYI there is precedent for light therapy being useful for healing wounds.

If you take a bright red light, and shine it into your hand, its like a x-ray. Its hard to imagine its not doing anything when you see it. I would not totally trash light based therapy based on previous findings.

[TimFox]

"Phototherapy" is a common treatment for various skin problems.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24385-phototherapy-light-therapy

[Bud]

Ok, ok, we will not, we promise.

[Kim Christensen]

Ok, ok, we will not, we promise.

[Kim Christensen]

Please tell me.  Is there any concept elsewhere about why for example the color green has characteristics of cleansing, while color blue is stabilizing and color red is strengthening? Any analogy of this in other area?

I think it's just cultural and will vary between different societies. Humans tend to project their feelings onto inanimate objects. Probably a result of our evolution.

[TimFox]

In medieval Europe and England, "green" represented infidelity and "blue" represented fidelity.
See the famous English song "Greensleeves" and Chaucer's "Squire's Tale" in the Canterbury Tales.
Much of this is irrelevant to those who have any of the various forms of color blindness.
An interesting question was once posted to a literary forum:  the author was writing an historical novel, set in medieval England, and needed a word for "orange", since the fruit was not yet known in England at the time of the action, but obviously existed as an optical phenomenon.
In Old English, when the fruit was unknown, the color was called "geoluhread", or yellow-red.

[Kim Christensen]

These colors you experience sound a lot like something called synesthesia.

[TimFox]

My favorite literary example of synesthesia is Inspector Montelbano in the police procedurals written by Andrea Camilleri.
It's not clear that synesthesia improved his detective skills.

[TimFox]

No, such an instrument is very easy to make.
If you don't know how to make one, it is probably not safe for you to use one.

[Bud]

What good stuff do you smoke, mate?

[Kim Christensen]

Kim or others retired. Can you help me coin a new term and technique for this.

I think that would be up to you since you talk the lingo. Just be careful of words that have multiple meanings across languages.
But, I did find you a Tobiscope song:

[Kim Christensen]

In Tiller book Science and Human Transformation. He mentioned a group of researchers experiment with cooper wall with isolated ground. What is the relevance of cooper wall?  Why not aluminum wall or plain metal wall?

They mean copper which is one of the better materials for a faraday cage which we talked about a while back. They probably were just picking up static charges on the "floating" copper sheets.

[Kim Christensen]

I still think it's simply static charges or other EC anomalies and nothing to do with human mystical "powers". The person is sitting on an isolated chair so it doesn't really matter where the electrode is placed on the person. Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Kim Christensen]

Absolutely no proof of anything in that article. Just claims.
The phase "Qi energy" on it's own is enough to debunk it.

[Kim Christensen]

Is the mind all in the brain?

Yes. That's all there is to it. Fear and ego prevents most people from facing this simple truth.

[Kim Christensen]

The odd of guessing it right is all the objects in the world

It isn't though. Since you are close to the individual, you have shared experiences, environment, etc, and thus shared memories of objects. Odds are much lower than you'd think.
Even with these better odds, I've never experienced it working consistently and never seen anyone else prove that it works beyond random chance.

[EE54]

Is it so hard for you to just link the book/articles and tell us the page numbers you’re talking about?
Like “Pranic Healing Basis - Pg 23-26” would be much more effective and does NOT clog up the site.

Secondly, you can’t just dump all this pranic healing mumbo jumbo on us then go “here, debunk if you can”. It’s up to the party making the extraordinary claims to prove themselves, not the other way around.

Finally, I’m not sure how comfortable we are in assisting you considering you want to start your own healing school and potentially profit of this.

[Kim Christensen]

But are there other important aspects of reality that we are not seeing, aspects that are beyond even our technological grasp? According to the holographic model, the answer is yes.

But that's the thing: We can "see" and hear things outside of the normal human range because we've built devices to detect all kinds of audio/EMF frequencies, particles, chemicals, IR, UV, etc. The "holographic model" is not required.

Sorry man, I just can't bring myself to read all that. The foundation of the entire article is based on vitalism which has been debunked a long time ago.
You're like a salesman trying to sell me a house with no foundation by pointing out all the wonderful workmanship elsewhere.

[Kim Christensen]

1. Practical. What happens if biology doesn't have any biofield. Simple. Try not sleeping for days. When you don't sleep and your biofield is so weak, it can't absorb any prana/qi, and your biofield very weak.

No. This doesn't prove that prana/qi exists at all. Lack of knowledge about something does not automatically mean that "god did it" or "it must be biofield". That's not how science works.

2. Technical. Why do we need nadis or this extended field in our biology. Here i'll debunk the following paragraph in wiki of vitalism.
----SNIP-----
Likewise the Biofield can synchronize the whole organism. Here let me invoke Dr. Nordenstrom Biologically Closed Electric Circuits (Ok EE54, I won't quote any part, just download the whole book if interested).
----SNIP-----
In the future everything will just fall into place.

How did that debunk Friedrich Wöhler's debunking of Jöns Jakob Berzelius's vitality theory?
It didn't. The fact is that prana/qi's existence has never been proven scientifically.

[Kim Christensen]

It's like saying when you explode a grenade. A laptop suddenly assembly into place in the debris.

Except no one is saying that. The universe is apx 13.7 billion years old. (Earth is apx 4.5 billion years old) That's how long it took for humans to appear and build the first laptop on Earth. Hardly "suddenly" by any stretch of the imagination. We built a lot of things before that 1st laptop... It's almost like it was an "evolution" of knowledge...

[bonyz]

It's like saying when you explode a grenade. A laptop suddenly assembly into place in the debris.

Except no one is saying that. The universe is apx 13.7 billion years old. (Earth is apx 4.5 billion years old) That's how long it took for humans to appear and build the first laptop on Earth. Hardly "suddenly" by any stretch of the imagination. We built a lot of things before that 1st laptop... It's almost like it was an "evolution" of knowledge...

No. I'll explain. It's related to so called Fine Tuned Universe. See: (below is one Occult Hypothesis of Big Bang origin)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

"The characterization of the universe as finely tuned suggests that the occurrence of life in the universe is very sensitive to the values of certain fundamental physical constants and that other values different from the observed ones are, for some reason, improbable.[1] If the values of any of certain free parameters in contemporary physical theories had differed only slightly from those observed, the evolution of the universe would have proceeded very differently, and "life as we know it" (LAWKI) may not have been possible.[2][3][4][5]"

They just can't find any equations that could produce the constants or how the building blocks were made so they revert to Multiverse as one plausible scenerio:

"If the universe is just one of many, and possibly infinite universes, each with different physical phenomena and constants, it would be unsurprising that we find ourselves in a universe hospitable to intelligent life (see multiverse: anthropic principle). Some versions of the multiverse hypothesis therefore provide a simple explanation for any fine-tuning.[1]

The multiverse idea has led to considerable research into the anthropic principle and has been of particular interest to particle physicists, because theories of everything do apparently generate large numbers of universes in which the physical constants vary widely. As yet, there is no evidence for the existence of a multiverse, but some versions of the theory make predictions of which some researchers studying M-theory and gravity leaks hope to see some evidence soon.[30]: 220–221  Laura Mersini-Houghton claimed that the WMAP cold spot could provide testable empirical evidence for a parallel universe.[31] Variants of this approach include Lee Smolin's notion of cosmological natural selection, the Ekpyrotic universe, and the bubble universe theory."

See the url.  Which do you choose? 

[Kim Christensen]

I lean towards the "anthropic principle". It's the same reason I don't need to believe in the human soul: What came before and after our existence is irrelevant because it matters not to the person or species doing the observing.
Multiple "dead" universes could have come and gone before this one. It doesn't really matter to us because we only live in this one.
I did not suffer for billions of years awaiting my birth, nor will I notice the eons passing after my death.
Likewise, it doesn't matter to humanity if there were/are multiple universes. It doesn't effect us at all.
The "powerful laws" are the result of a roll of the cosmic dice (To coin a phrase). Turns out this one was a winner. We have no choice but to play by the rules.

[bonyz]

In Tiller book Science and Human Transformation. He mentioned a group of researchers experiment with cooper wall with isolated ground. What is the relevance of cooper wall?  Why not aluminum wall or plain metal wall?

They mean copper which is one of the better materials for a faraday cage which we talked about a while back. They probably were just picking up static charges on the "floating" copper sheets.

I just learnt Ingo Swann tried the Cooper wall room. https://doctorlib.info/psychiatry/psychic-sexuality/18.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann

"In 1989, Ingo Swann was invited by Dr. Elmer Green at the Menninger Foundation to participate in experiments involving physical energy fields, body, electricity, and states of consciousness. The experiments were conducted within an elaborate electrostatic "copper wall environment," the design of which was based on an ancient Asian technique to activate and enhance clairvoyance and lucidity. As a result of the numerous experimental sessions undertaken, Swann's clairvoyance increased tremendously. Various states of lucid consciousness were achieved with respect to "seeing" vivid details of invisible energetic fields and phenomena of the biological body and its astonishing higher-energy systems. "

[bonyz]

I already deleted most of my messages here because I've been avoiding something for a long time. Ingo Swann described the point well. I'll need to share this before I delete it tomorrow.

The problem with Anthropic Principle is you can miss something crucial like if there are ingredients that created fine tuning or hidden dynamics and you can control the ingredients/dynamics. Then you got extra degree of freedom.



Quoting Ingo Swann in "Penetration":



You see. We have a soul (the white thing). A Mahatma or Adept simply have more of their consciousness focused on the soul. And they can access its power and greater forces behind the outward apperance. And there are "visitors" in our world that simply don't have soul. Ingo Swann can detect them because they don't have any Biofield. If you will read the books by John Keel and so many others. You will hear about Men in Black that are so awkward. That's because they are not humans. They don't have a soul. Biofield sensing can easily detect them. That's why they even threaten to eliminate those who can "see" the Biofield when the time comes when natural catastrophe, war, etc. eliminates the populations and their kinds can occupy the world. And even now. They have eliminated many as John Keel detailed in his books. So no. I won't open any healing center at all and create sensitives  who can sense Biofield and become threat to them. Pranic healing have guts because Adept help found it. Only Adepts can overcome the Bio-androids. In the past. Mahatmas/Adepts are more earth based. Now they also deal with  things out of this earth. I don't want to be caught in the crossfire. There are better things to do than risk it for nothing.

[EE54]

You see. We have a soul (the white thing). A Mahatma or Adept simply have more of their consciousness focused on the soul. And they can access its power and greater forces behind the outward apperance. And there are "visitors" in our world that simply don't have soul. Ingo Swann can detect them because they don't have any Biofield. If you will read the books by John Keel and so many others. You will hear about Men in Black that are so awkward. That's because they are not humans. They don't have a soul. Biofield sensing can easily detect them. That's why they even threaten to eliminate those who can "see" the Biofield when the time comes when natural catastrophe, war, etc. eliminates the populations and their kinds can occupy the world. And even now. They have eliminated many as John Keel detailed in his books. So no. I won't open any healing center at all and create sensitives  who can sense Biofield and become threat to them. Pranic healing have guts because Adept help found it. Only Adepts can overcome the Bio-androids. In the past. Mahatmas/Adepts are more earth based. Now they also deal with  things out of this earth. I don't want to be caught in the crossfire. There are better things to do than risk it for nothing.

If you're so afraid about soulless aliens killing you for tapping into this forbidden knowledge then why did you post all of this to a PUBLIC forum, viewable by anyone with an internet connection?

[fourfathom]

Dear Admin: Please don't lock this thread!

[TimFox]

For an operatic treatment of this stuff, consider Mozart's Così fan tutte, ossia La scuola degli amanti K. 588.
At the end of Act 1, the crafty servant girl Despina, in disguise as the mesmerist Doctor Magnetico, uses a large magnet to revive the two dudes, who are disguised as Albanians and have pretended to take poison because of unrequited love.

[EE54]

Dear Admin: Please don't lock this thread!

Likewise. This is literally the most interesting thread in the Dodgy Tech page in months.

[Bud]

Not too much Tech though in what is being posted.

[bonyz]

You see. We have a soul (the white thing). A Mahatma or Adept simply have more of their consciousness focused on the soul. And they can access its power and greater forces behind the outward apperance. And there are "visitors" in our world that simply don't have soul. Ingo Swann can detect them because they don't have any Biofield. If you will read the books by John Keel and so many others. You will hear about Men in Black that are so awkward. That's because they are not humans. They don't have a soul. Biofield sensing can easily detect them. That's why they even threaten to eliminate those who can "see" the Biofield when the time comes when natural catastrophe, war, etc. eliminates the populations and their kinds can occupy the world. And even now. They have eliminated many as John Keel detailed in his books. So no. I won't open any healing center at all and create sensitives  who can sense Biofield and become threat to them. Pranic healing have guts because Adept help found it. Only Adepts can overcome the Bio-androids. In the past. Mahatmas/Adepts are more earth based. Now they also deal with  things out of this earth. I don't want to be caught in the crossfire. There are better things to do than risk it for nothing.

If you're so afraid about soulless aliens killing you for tapping into this forbidden knowledge then why did you post all of this to a PUBLIC forum, viewable by anyone with an internet connection?

It's because a poster can delete messages in this forum even half year later. So one can just delete sensitive posts. I only make posts to learn. After I learn, I delete. I don't care the future readers..  Also the bio-androids won't be monitoring medieval electronic sites that's why I posted this but just want to be sure.

Look. It's true. Don't think there are only one group of soulless beings on this planet. There are many factions. It's because our soul has the unique ability to create or uncreate reality due to its connected to the power behind the Big Bang. That's the purpose of so called alien abductions, to experiment with our Soul and create containers to tap the power.  About different soulless factions. For example. The Greys are not the same as the Men in Blacks. The latter can kill even now as reported by John Keel in his book "Operation Trojan Horse". The following is from Dr. David Jacobs book "The Threat". Just look them all up. I can't say much now because I don't want to be a target. Many researchers were already terminated by other soulless factions. I actually know one who has been terminated already.

[Kim Christensen]

It's because a poster can delete messages in this forum even half year later. So one can just delete sensitive posts. I only make posts to learn. After I learn, I delete. I don't care the future readers..  Also the bio-androids won't be monitoring medieval electronic sites that's why I posted this but just want to be sure.

If these beings can travel between universes and dimensions then they can also travel across time. So it would be a simple matter for them to go back in time and read your posts before they got deleted.
Even if they couldn't do that, what's to stop one of their minions from copying data from the entire internet? Humans already do that with sites like the "wayback machine". What's to stop an organization (Such as the CIA) with more resources doing the same but at a much higher sample rate?

[bonyz]

It's because a poster can delete messages in this forum even half year later. So one can just delete sensitive posts. I only make posts to learn. After I learn, I delete. I don't care the future readers..  Also the bio-androids won't be monitoring medieval electronic sites that's why I posted this but just want to be sure.

If these beings can travel between universes and dimensions then they can also travel across time. So it would be a simple matter for them to go back in time and read your posts before they got deleted.
Even if they couldn't do that, what's to stop one of their minions from copying data from the entire internet? Humans already do that with sites like the "wayback machine". What's to stop an organization (Such as the CIA) with more resources doing the same but at a much higher sample rate?

Who says these beings are from other galaxies? If you will see the background of many killed investigating UFOs. It's their nosing around the seemingly earthly origins of these. It appears just like there are a secret group of Adepts living on earth. There is also a secret group of low level beings living in subterranean places. John Keel wiki page said:

"In Our Haunted Planet, Keel discussed the seldom-considered possibility that the alien "visitors" to Earth are not visitors at all, but an advanced Earth civilization, which may or may not be human. Interdimensional life is also considered."

But first some common sense:

1. Humans highest level of science and probing realm reachable may be science of the soul (because we can tap its energy now).
2. Bio-androids higher level of science and probing realm reachable may be those lower entities. That is, poltergeist manifestations and UFOlogy seem to be closely related (see article below). Some think the entire UFOlogy is simply poltergeist manifestations. It's like saying electronics stuff is simply electrical manifestations with no humans involved. Point is there are also many who theorized the Bio-androids have mastered manipulating and calling forth the plane of the entities. And the former may even be containers for the latter or parasite or co-living.  I don't fear bio-androids. You can easily hide from them but not poltergeists who can find you wherever you are. See John Keel experience in "Operation Trojan Horse:





This is the reason I don't want to nose around stuff dangerous for me. You may be able to stop a Bio-android with portable EMP.  But not poltergeists. In Pranic healing we only deal with 2 inches size elementals. Bigger than that, all run away.

I'm not sure what are the exact role of Greys. And I don't want to care or find out anymore. Do you guys think Greys are real? What do you think are they in your opinion? Maybe what John Keel experienced are not caused by Greys but separate phenomenon?

For debunkers like Kim.  Please try read John Keel and Jacques Vallee books, Then write a book debunking them so you can help many of us who are concerned about them.

The above is all I know I have nothing more to share about UFOs. So to those poltergeists sensing this post. Don't worry about me. I'm as ignorant as the rest. All I know is everything I read. No direct experience and I dont want to.

[bd139]

[bonyz]

Here is the famous article by Dr. David Jacobs you can't find anymore in the internet. A hybrid was being taught how to grocery and he didn't even know if bread was to be cooked. Hybrids have very low EQ, isn't it? I was disturbed when I read this in 2007. If you can debunk it. Please do. I don't want it to be real. Whatever. if Hybrids are real, it definitely can't be integrated of 2 DNA that are not similar, instead, it's more of integration of the Human Biofield energy matrix into the soul-less Grey Hybrid. What do you think about all this? 

"Recently, I had a case in which a woman walked into a supermarket and found a familiar late-stage hybrid waiting for her there. He told her to go about her normal shopping and he would watch. She went about shopping and he asked her questions about each object that she put in her cart. “What are these?” “These are eggs.” “How do you make eggs?” “You can fry them. You can boil them. You cook them in some other way.”

He continued to ask questions of the items and she was required  to answer. At one point she put a loaf of bread into her cart and he said, “Do you cook that too?” He was trying to learn."

[bd139]

[Kim Christensen]

Here is the famous article by Dr. David Jacobs you can't find anymore in the internet.

Yet, here it is... On the internet. 

[bonyz]

Here is the famous article by Dr. David Jacobs you can't find anymore in the internet.

Yet, here it is... On the internet. 

Last night I came across this book with the passage linking the article. The book also talks about the soul-less bio-robotic greys doing experiments to acquire souls. Please debunk the mere existence of greys if you can. Like do you think all abductees are suffering from mental diseases?  Last time I joined an abductee support group, and told them they were crazy, and got booted out. Lol.

"In 2007, Professor Jacobs wrote a report called “A Picture We May Not Wish to Gaze Upon,” outlining the changes in abduction accounts he has noticed over the past ten years. This is one of the most alarming reports I have read on the subject."

https://www.amazon.com/Grey-Aliens-Harvesting-Souls-Genetically-ebook/dp/B003N3U3JY

"
Exposes the agenda behind the bio-robotic grey aliens’ genetic manipulation of certain human races

• Reveals the Grey’s nature as sophisticated self-aware machines created by a long vanished extraterrestrial civilization

• Explains how their quest to capture human souls appears in the historical record from biblical times

• Explains how the phenomenon of racism is a by-product of their genetic tampering

In 1997 Nigel Kerner first introduced the notion of aliens known as Greys coming to Earth, explaining that Greys are sophisticated biological robots created by an extraterrestrial civilization they have long since outlived. In this new book Kerner reveals that the Greys are seeking to master death by obtaining something humans possess that they do not: souls. Through the manipulation of human DNA, these aliens hope to create their own souls and, thereby, escape the entropic grip of the material universe in favor of the timeless realm of spirit.

Kerner explains that genetic manipulation by the Greys has occurred since biblical times and has led to numerous negative qualities that plague humanity, such as violence, greed, and maliciousness. Racism, he contends, was developed by the aliens to prevent their genetic experiments from being compromised by breeding with others outside their influence. Examining historical records, Kerner shows that Jesus, who represented an uncorrupted genetic line, warned his disciples about the threat posed by these alien interlopers, while Hitler, a pure product of this alien intelligence, waged genocide in an attempt to rid Earth of all those untouched by this genetic tampering. Despite the powerful grip the Greys have on humanity, Kerner says that all hope is not lost. Greys exist wholly in the material world, so if we follow the spiritual laws of reincarnation and karma, aiming for enlightenment and rising above the material--a state the Greys are unable to reach--we can free ourselves from their grasp."

[Bud]

bonyz is one of them   

[bonyz]

bonyz is one of them   

One of the crazies or hybrids? I don't mind, just debunk the greys and hybrids, come on!

Btw.. bony comes from the Bony Portmore song.

[helius]

The fact is that many scientists and engineers are not eliminative materialists, and have some religious viewpoint or allow that there are unknowable or mystical aspects to existence. But the old phrase "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything" applies. At some point it just seems like you're throwing shit at the wall to see what will stick. OK, Vedic consciousness, Prana, whatever. Now gray aliens hitler versus jesus? You realize that these ideas are not harmonious with each other?

[Kim Christensen]

Mick West does a great job of debunking UFO videos:

From simple camera artifacts as shown in this 4 minute video:
.

By tracking of aircraft and observing features on the ground, etc to reveal that the identity of a "TIC TAC UFO" was a plane. (10 mins)


And finally, a Poltergeist Ghost Glass Replication Experiment (2.5 mins)

[Bud]

bonyz is one of them   

One of the crazies or hybrids? I don't mind, just debunk the greys and hybrids, come on!

How can I debunk it if you are real ! 

[bonyz]

bonyz is one of them   

One of the crazies or hybrids? I don't mind, just debunk the greys and hybrids, come on!

How can I debunk it if you are real ! 

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I used to be called R2-D2..

Now I have a soul..Yehey

Well. Seriously I need to know if David Jacobs Hybrids are real or not. Bec if not. Then we are dealing with John Keel Shapeshifters. It's for threat assessment. So people pls debunk Jacobs hypothesis to smithereens. I need it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Keel

"
Rejection of Extraterrestrial hypothesis

Like contemporary 1960s researchers such as J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallée, Keel was initially hopeful that he could somehow validate the prevailing extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis. However, after one year of investigations, Keel concluded that the extraterrestrial hypothesis was untenable. Indeed, both Hynek and Vallée eventually arrived at a similar conclusion. As Keel himself wrote:

I abandoned the extraterrestrial hypothesis in 1967 when my own field investigations disclosed an astonishing overlap between psychic phenomena and UFOs... The objects and apparitions do not necessarily originate on another planet and may not even exist as permanent constructions of matter. It is more likely that we see what we want to see and interpret such visions according to our contemporary beliefs.[4]

In UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse and The Eighth Tower Keel argues that a non-human or spiritual intelligence source has staged whole events over a long period of time in order to propagate and reinforce certain erroneous belief systems. For example, monsters, ghosts and demons, the fairy faith in Middle Europe, vampire legends, mystery airships in 1897, mystery aeroplanes of the 1930s, mystery helicopters, anomalous creature sightings, poltergeist phenomena, balls of light, and UFOs; Keel conjectured that ultimately all of these anomalies are a cover for the real phenomenon.[full citation needed] He used the term "ultraterrestrials" to describe UFO occupants he believed to be non-human entities capable of taking on whatever form they want.[5]
"

[bonyz]

Mick West does a great job of debunking UFO videos:

From simple camera artifacts as shown in this 4 minute video:

<snipped>

By tracking of aircraft and observing features on the ground, etc to reveal that the identity of a "TIC TAC UFO" was a plane. (10 mins)

<snipped>

And finally, a Poltergeist Ghost Glass Replication Experiment (2.5 mins)

<snipped>

Try to find debunking videos of TIC TAC seen by US. Navy Fighters as they come within meters of the fighter planes.  If these men can't even differentiate between a airplane and TIC TAC. They mustn't fly planes equipped with many weapon system as they won't be able to differentiate enemy aircrafts or friendly commercial planes.

About Poltergeist. That's a cheap try. Real poltergeists' activities involve science similar to Pavlita psychotronic generator but on a scale more powerful.

But first. Why not be familiar with the entities experienced by John Keel. First know how entities even attach to the body. This is from Pranic Psychotherapy book. (as before I'll delete this days later to avoid any copyright problems.. this is why I deleted other messages).  (see bottom for unravelling the science of this).









I'm thinking of using the term Holo-Homeo Field to describe this. Short for Holographic Homeostatis Field. Of course it may not have anything to do with Holographic. What other concepts similar to Holography but not exactly holography I can use in meantime? Please help coin other term for Biofield. Also can't anyone help trying to unravel the physics of chakras and Biofield?

[Kim Christensen]

Try to find debunking videos of TIC TAC seen by US. Navy Fighters as they come within meters of the fighter planes.

Link?

[SiliconWizard]

TIC TAC TOE?

[bonyz]

Try to find debunking videos of TIC TAC seen by US. Navy Fighters as they come within meters of the fighter planes.

Link?

(related video at bottom)

[bonyz]

Something puzzles me. Jacques Vallee has been anti Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis from beginning but he recently wrote a book about eyewitnesses to the actual crash site with the Greys actually seen. First to those who don't know Jacques Vallee. He has more technical expertise than any of you (with some exceptions maybe).

"Jacques Fabrice Vallée (French: [ʒak fabʁis vale]; born September 24, 1939) is an Internet pioneer, computer scientist, venture capitalist, author, ufologist and astronomer currently residing in San Francisco, California and Paris, France.

His scientific career began as a professional astronomer at the Paris Observatory. Vallée co-developed the first computerized map of Mars for NASA in 1963. He later worked on the network information center for the ARPANET, a precursor to the modern Internet, as a staff engineer of SRI International's Augmentation Research Center under Douglas Engelbart."

His new book:

https://www.amazon.com/TRINITY-Best-Kept-Jacques-F-Vall%C3%A9e/dp/B0B8BPCK1R/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3RTJZE3N5WSWN&keywords=jacques+vallee+trinity&qid=1696211578&sprefix=jacques+vallee+trinity%2Caps%2C1142&sr=8-1

EXPANDED SECOND EDITION

Breakthrough Research Reveals the Earliest Evidence of US Government’s UFO Recovery. Hard evidence has existed since 1945 for the actual recovery of unidentified flying craft in the United States, according to this research book, "TRINITY: The Best-Kept Secret" written by two seasoned analysts of the global patterns behind the UFO phenomenon.

This is the second edition of this book which includes an additional witness' story. Italian investigative journalist Paola Leopizzi Harris and French-born information scientist Dr. Jacques F. Vallée have teamed up to uncover the details of a New Mexico crash in 1945, fully two years before the well-known incident at Roswell and the famous sighting by pilot Kenneth Arnold in 1947. Over several site investigation surveys Harris and Vallée reconstructed the historic observations by five witnesses, three of whom are still living, who described to them the circumstances of the crash, with details of the recovery of a nearly-intact flying vehicle and its occupants by an Army detachment. Combining their long experience in field research around the world, the authors have documented the step-by-step efforts by the military to remove the object, an avocado-shaped craft weighing several tons, from the property where it crash-landed during a storm.

[Kim Christensen]

Video footage debunked:








And finally, a highly detailed description on how these targeting cameras actually work and how that effects what you see:

[bonyz]

Video footage debunked:




And finally, a highly detailed description on how these targeting cameras actually work and how that effects what you see:

That's absolutely brilliant!  The Navy pilots must be drank. Good the USS Nimitz is not armed with nuclear torpedos.

Also it's good ship can't suddenly accelerate (even if they can overcome the physics or inertia). We know that for ship that accelerates suddenly, the Gs can flatten the occupants. In the following is mentioned of multiple abductions. Imagine the ship speeds away suddenly, the victims would hit one another and died. I just read this after going to the Flying Saucer Review journal site today just to check out latest. Last I read FSR was 20 years ago.

please see full article at http://www.fsr.org.uk/fsrart18.htm  written by Don Worley. It's not just David Jacobs who report these.
 
excerpt (by chance do you know t-shirt with words 13th Tsukuba Marathon. Many abductees were returned wearing wrong clothes or even underwear!):


"In my "Andrew" case (Arkansas) the cotton-candy-haired "Nordic" and frail little "Grey" type aliens followed this man, formerly resident in England, to the USA! And now they have begun to pay attention to his wife and his son too! So, when making our estimates, we must remember the "repeater-factor", and also realise that loved ones and kin are often to be included in the grand total.

A very important consideration when we are estimating possible abduction totals is also the feature of "group-takings", or "mass-abductions."

I sometimes read of such cases in the literature of the subject, and I have a few such in my own cases. In the case of "Bridget" (Indiana) two persons recalled a particular incident when a whole crowd of people were seen by them, standing like zombies near a fish-shaped UFO. An hour and a half of time was lost, and then at the end of the event they both saw the same crowd of people dispersing back to their homes on a near-by street.
In my subsequent investigation of the case and of the area, I was totally unable to find a single soul in that area who remembered that anything had happened there that night!

In my "White" case (Indiana), the lifetime abductee told of two incidents that were multiple in nature. One of the incidents took place at a swimming-pool, where everybody was put into "suspended animation." One by one they were all taken up through a large tunnel-like apparatus extending down from the UFO.

In my "Witsken" case (also in Indiana) the victim described to me how, one evening, he and his neighbours from the apartment-building were all assembled beneath a huge UFO. He remembered entering the UFO via a circular porthole at the bottom. Inside the UFO were his neighbours from the apartment-building, all sitting around on benches and looking as though they were "frozen stiff".

Some of the data suggests that in the course of their abduction activities some of the aliens are getting confused about "who wore what" among their abductees!

John Carpenter, the renowned investigator-researcher from Missouri, has listed a number of these sometimes humorous episodes, and I also have some in my files. In my "Apache Indian" case (Idaho) the lady awoke sometimes with her clothing on inside out or on backwards, and once inside someone else's panties!

This made her furious, and she "would like to know what is going on."(See FSR 39/4, Editorial ).

One husband kept replacing his wife's nightgowns, hoping that she would not have been seen by anybody floating naked over the neighbourhood.

One woman was wearing her new "Victoria's Secret" nightgown when taken from her bed, and returned in a man's oversized shirt! (What man, one wonders, awoke to find himself in her "Victoria's Secret" nightgown? And what did he tell his wife?)

Another abductee returned home wearing a tee-shirt instead of her nightgown. The logo on the tee-shirt read "13th Tsukuba Marathon." (If you can solve this riddle, please let me know.)"

[Kim Christensen]

Some of them sound like adulterers simply telling stories to their gullible partners.

[bonyz]

Some of them sound like adulterers simply telling stories to their gullible partners.

Ok. I'll tell the author those are simply adulterers who want to fool him (maybe because he is very handsome?).

Have you ever visited Puerto Rico? Are you familiar with the Sierra Bermeja Range there? If you go to Puerto Rico. Please confirm if there are bases there or not. The folks in the area are so familiar with the phenomena that they may be able to show you. 1 of them was taken inside the base fully awake. See inside the article. Jacques Vallee also described many incidents in his book Revelations.

http://www.fsr.org.uk/fsrart31.htm

A UFO BASE BENEATH THE SIERRA BERMEJA RANGE IN S.W. PUERTO RICO?  by Jorge Martin

During his recent visit to Puerto Rico, Bob Pratt, U.S. investigator, said: "Puerto Rico is incredible. In other parts of the world you see a wave of a certain type of case for a certain time and in a certain place - but here all types of UFO cases are occuring everywhere all the time. You see UFOs entering or leaving the sea, entering into mountains, landings, encounters with entities, abductions, physical examinations, military jets pursuing UFOs and vice-versa, encounters with Bigfoots - in fact the lot! Puerto Rico is a veritable paradise for the investigator who has dedicated himself to probing the entire UFO situation.
Similar comments have come from other visiting investigators, such as Timothy Good of England, Yun Ichi Yaoi of Japan, Jaime Maussn from Mexico, Salvador Freixedo and his wife Magdalena del Amo from Spain, Command-Sergeant Major Bob Dean from the USA, and many, many others.

The case that I am describing today occurred at 7.45 pm. on December 28, 1988, when, according to numerous local eyewitnesses, a gigantic vividly illuminated Triangle apparently captured two military jet aircraft and then vanished, over the area of the Sierra Bermeja (Vermilion Range) and Lake Cartagena, in the south-western corner of the Island of Puerto Rico, where the great bulk of the phenomena seems to be concentrated. (see map above).

So far as we have learned, the two jets werefrom the U.S. Navy - possibly F-14 Tomcats. All the many witness accounts, from the towns of Lajas and Cabo Rojo, as well as their sketches of the UFO and the two aircraft, are in complete agreement.
Among these many eyewitnesses was Sr. Carlos Manuel Mercado, residing at Betances, beside the Highway No. 101 and near the Sierra Bermeja and the Sam�n area.

(see url for rest)

[bd139]

[SiliconWizard]

The high accelerations while flying jets can cause serious hallucinations.

[Kim Christensen]

Have you ever visited Puerto Rico? Are you familiar with the Sierra Bermeja Range there? If you go to Puerto Rico. Please confirm if there are bases there or not. The folks in the area are so familiar with the phenomena that they may be able to show you.

I know of one user on this board who actually lives there. I don't know if he is following this thread. 

[bonyz]

There is something that puzzles me in the Jacques Vallee book "Trinity" conclusions. At bottom are my questions. When I tried to ask this in say www.physicsforums.com I got banned immediatetly. In fact I was banned there 15 times already.









1. Is it not like saying a downed Russian nuclear submarine in the ocean is there as symbolic level, the target being our relationship to life? It seems Vallee interdimentional hypothesis and bias is clouding his judgement?

2. When you want to make opening and treaty to the aborigines. You don't give them a complete Abram Tank. But just the shell and any engine will do, is it not? Vallee complained the craft may not be complete.

3. Vallee can't imagine the purpose of the treaty is high technology in exchange for abductions. This is because he can't fathom the purpose of abductions. We esotericists can channel the energy of the soul at any time like when we do pranic healing. My point is. the purpose of abductions may be simply because they are studying our soul. And yes this whole thing is related to the Tobicscope. Why. Because since the Tobiscope measures aspects of the Biofield. And the Greys admit they don't have Biofield like ours that's why after the Change, they will eliminate all those who can see Biofield. This means the Tobiscope won't work with Greys body.

4. The treaty may be reason why there is government jeep carrying the Greys at Puerto Rico. Without any treaty. The government can easily send Hellfire misslles to those bases.

5. John Keel in his book Haunted Planet has alternative explanation. He said a civilization of Shapeshifters were there before the Great Pyramid and they somehow got destroyed by war among themselves or a disaster.. This is why there is this passage "Exodus 33:20, “He [God] said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.". That's because they want to hide what they looked like. Some said they looked like Lizards. So those "visitors" may not be extraterrestrials but from those civilization.

6. What do you make of Jacques Vallee conclusion? I'm interested in all this so I know what kind of healing school to put up. For safety I may just do something similar to NAET (www.naet.com) . I found out the Biofield can recognize and memorize different substances. If you have trauma and you were say eating it, a field allergy could initialize. And next time you eat the substance, your Biofield can react. NAET can remove that discord.  This is because my alternative plan for my healing school is developing the chakras but then the side effect is ability to see Biofield and since the Greys admit they don't have Biofield (and Tobiscope won't work on them), they can be detected among the crowd. So I want to know if Greys are real or not. If not real. I can embed both NAET and Chakra development in my healing school. If they are real. Then I'd just focus on NAET like stuff only for safety. Please give conviincing Debunking that Greys are not real and all are just hallucinating (mass hallucinations). Thanks.

[TimFox]

Don't forget H P Lovecraft, such as  https://www.lovecraft-stories.com/story/at-the-mountains-of-madness  (too long to post here).

[Bud]

When I tried to ask this in say www.physicsforums.com I got banned immediatetly. In fact I was banned there 15 times already.

I am hoping you will be banned here as well, because all you do is spamming the forum with pages and pages of stuff which nobody reads.

[bonyz]

When I tried to ask this in say www.physicsforums.com I got banned immediatetly. In fact I was banned there 15 times already.

I am hoping you will be banned here as well, because all you do is spamming the forum with pages and pages of stuff which nobody reads.

Great idea. Please ban me. I want to be banned. Where are the moderators? Can anyone call them? It's pointless to discuss with people who are purely nut and bolt, or resistors and capacitor mind only. The universe Fine Tuning is due to other hidden forces of nature. The Greys, occultists, etc. are accessing the hidden laws. The former manipulating it for evil. The latter for good. Do "occultist" sound sinister to you? I don't know synonym for it, maybe "esotericist". Anyway I don't think anyone can help me build a prana generator (or holographic beam insert generator) here so I have no purpose here anymore. Thanks for all assistances. All the things I mentioned are all in books. So for those wanting to know more. Just read them.

[YurkshireLad]

“prana generator” - did you mistype “paranoia”?

[bd139]

“prana generator” - did you mistype “paranoia”?

No it was definitely a typo of "bollocks"

[Simon]

Great idea. Please ban me. I want to be banned. Where are the moderators? Can anyone call them?

We were called, we heard your call, we came, we banned you. DON'T COME BACK!

[Cyberdragon]

Great idea. Please ban me. I want to be banned. Where are the moderators? Can anyone call them?

We were called, we heard your call, we came, we banned you. DON'T COME BACK!

[planc]

These aliens/greys thing can't be real because the universe is so big. They couldn't easily find us. Instead there are 2 down to earth possibilities I can think of.

1. Virtual reality headset with resolutions that matches that of the visual system. This can make one think one is really travelling to other planets or meeting these weird beings.  Maybe the government has already produced these? I heard the mode of communication of the alleged encounters  is always people hearing the voices of the beings in their heads. It may be because they are listening to the headset in the VR unit!

2. Directed beam technology that is capable of sending voices into people's head without sending any sound directly in the air. The government always own gizmos well in advance of the public especially in black projects.  I'm interested in this concept because it will have huge applications in music or voice over prompt in newscasting and others.

Folks. What beam technology conceptually is capable of this where for example microwave beam can be used to send voice into people's head directly without intervening audio medium?

[TimFox]

Directed audio:  one can use ultrasound (narrow focused beam) or focused microwaves to heat air at a focus point.
Modulating either carrier will produce audible sound in the vicinity of the focus.
I believe this has been demonstrated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound

[planc]

Directed audio:  one can use ultrasound (narrow focused beam) or focused microwaves to heat air at a focus point.
Modulating either carrier will produce audible sound in the vicinity of the focus.
I believe this has been demonstrated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound

I didn't know there were already commercial products for this.

If the device would be used on a person, is he supposed to hear the voice outside like listening to an earphone and someone besides you can also hear it? Or does the sound seem to come from inside the brain?

I'm interested in device of the latter... like making one hear voices in the head like "marry him", "accept the business offer", "this is Jesus speaking". How would you theoretically make the device work such that the voices occured inside the brain itself?

[TimFox]

If I remember correctly, the intended military/security use case for this kind of projected audio is to establish a perimeter and yell at interlopers to keep out.

[planc]

If I remember correctly, the intended military/security use case for this kind of projected audio is to establish a perimeter and yell at interlopers to keep out.

I researched about your ultrasonics idea and the sound comes directly from the ultrasonic beams. I'm interested in microwave induced version as I just read about it a while ago in the newbit below. Is there any way to vibrate the skull of a person so the microwaves can make the skull produce the voice such that the person can hear it from inside the head?

This would be cool to used on any person. For example. You going to a store in a foreign country and then the salesman hearing your voices without you opening your mouth. This is good for voice translation devices applications.

Are you familiar with the case of Aaron Alexis who killed 12 people in the US Navy Yard he was working beause he heard voices coming from the wall and ceiling using some kind of microwave devices?  If this case was true (authorized admit he was not mentallly ill). It means the microwave device already exists. Any clue what part of the brain it can aim or target to produce the voices so we can try to duplicate building the technology? My neighbor's dogs are so noisy even at night and it would be nice to send the message "remove the dogs" to the neighbor's brain and doing it daily until he removes the dogs.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/aaron-alexis-was-hearing-voices-a-month-before-his-rampage

[TimFox]

A more likely microwave case is local heating of the air near the focus, which when modulated produces audible sound waves in the air.

[Bud]

This is Jesus speaking. We just got rid of one nut but immediately got another one. 

[Kim Christensen]

My neighbor's dogs are so noisy even at night and it would be nice to send the message "remove the dogs" to the neighbor's brain and doing it daily until he removes the dogs.

Maybe check to see if a high power ultrasonic device would make the dogs shut up. If it works, then make a bark detector that fires the ultrasonic device for a set period.
I doubt you'll change the mind of the obnoxious dog owner. I'm sure he already knows that his dogs bark and just doesn't give a crap.

[planc]

A more likely microwave case is local heating of the air near the focus, which when modulated produces audible sound waves in the air.

Why should it be air that is heated near the focus and not the focus?  How do you converge microwave beam into focus say 0.25 mile away?

And where do you modulate such that audible sound waves could be produced in the air?

Please do provide some references or existing prototype or product that has this feature. Thank you.

I'm thinking whether the material of the focus is important. If it needs metal. Many people have amalgam or dental implants in the teeth now. For those without them the CIAs may put implants. I did some research of the material used by the CIAs. Many alleged "alien abductees" have implants and some of these were removed and analyzed. I I came across a documentary I haven't watched yet called "Patient Seventeen". It seems the CIA used meteorite for the implants in thousands of subjects in the population to make them hear voices. Why meteorite? A search turns up:

https://www.rawmusictv.com/article/amp/2019/Has-Patient-Seventeen-given-us-proof-for-the-existence-of-Extraterrestrial-Life

Is the Patient Seventeen Implant Alien?

Colbern on reading the results:

“We’ve got quite a few elements here...I see boron, sodium, magnesium...titanium...iron’s a major component”.

He continues:

“Cobalt, nickel, copper, zinc, gallium, germanium….”.

Colbern then states - “Gallium and germanium are indicative of the presence of meteoric iron”.

They also find, ‘Lanthanum’ and ‘Yttrium’, rare earth elements. The team also find palladium, again indicating the presence of meteoric iron.

Patient Seventeen - “Could that be a piece of steel fragment from my past or…?”

Colbern - “We have a total of 36 elements here, so that is quite complex”. Colbern then states, “most industrial allows don’t have nearly that many elements in them”.

“The isotopic ratios of Zinc 64 and Zinc 66 would indicate that these elements are not made from materials found here on Earth”.

Based on the ICP analysis of the object, Colbern is convinced they have enough evidence to confidently claim the object is made from materials not normally found on Earth

Whilst this doesn't prove it was made by an Alien race, it does give more weight to the argument that the object is potentially composed of material not normally found on this planet. It wouldn't be impossible though for a meteorite made up of exotic elements to land on Earth."

[TimFox]

You can modulate the microwave power at the transmitter with an audio baseband:  this is called "AM".
The volume near the focus includes the focus point.
For anything else, you can do your own Googling.

[bd139]

Crikey is this shit still rolling.

[planc]

You can modulate the microwave power at the transmitter with an audio baseband:  this is called "AM".
The volume near the focus includes the focus point.
For anything else, you can do your own Googling.

I couldn't find the formula to compute the temperature of the microwave at focus to be able to make voices appear at any place in the surrounding. Would it be in the above range of like 122 F in 2 seconds? If it is, I may not continue with the project because I couldn't find sources of directed-energy equipments in the market. Maybe you can help build one for me?

The CIAs are really nasty. Not only do they cause people to hear voices. They even rape people under the guise of shapeshifting reptilian cover (maybe to avoid being arrested because for this kind of report the police may send the victim to mental institution instead of arresting the perpetrator). There are thousands of cases of reptilian rapes and many reported by even average decent people. How do you prosecute the CIAs?  I found this link by one of the messages in this thread.

https://www.abduct.com/worley/worley68.php

(...)

"I wake up feeling nauseous and there is white stuff all over my underwear and YOU KNOW WHERE. The lying thing tells me I fell asleep and he had to have sex with me."

"He played it off great so then an hour later we were chatting and playing and his reptilian shield thing comes off and after that the jig was pretty much up but he still tried to play it off when I asked him, " Uh huh, you are an evil Reptilian."

"He acted all offended at this accusation. Then he slipped and told me the information about my going to have a baby was untrue. I accused him again of being evil and he just goes "yeah" and laughs out loud and brags how he raped me twice and his friends watched the second time."

I continue with Amy's narration. "After I was in his power I'm so worried about what is in my vagina. I'm in a shock, denial state and having suicidal thoughts and he is still following me around and trying to take control of my hands and throwing things around."

"I'm very sick, disoriented, nauseous, headache, blurry vision. I feel like part of him is still in me. When we had sex he literally went into my body and we were one. My hands keep moving without me telling them to. I can't even think."

"Should I go to a doctor? I don't want to die. I can't cope - can't let myself believe this is reality. They really are evil and went through all that pretense just to make it seem legitimate. The deceit was the thrill not the violence. Now I have firsthand understanding why the Indians called them "trickster Gods."

"The nasty reptile caused me to want to have sex with him. What kind of illness could I get from what he has done? I can't go to a doctor and have my mother find out. I can't tell anyone but you."

Amy's terrible ordeal continues. "He is standing here shrugging his shoulders and saying, "Maybe you are going to die" Things like that. The energy form that tricked me into having sex with him continues to follow me. At night time I saw him pretty vividly. I saw his reptile form now that he did not try to disguise himself."

"They are very tall, muscular on top, kind of small average sized heads, a little different shaped than humans, eyes shaped like a human's but I think they are red and yellow colored, very long pointed fingers. He looked like a reptile, like a human lizard, alligator skin, snake-like face and features. A mix of them all."

"He was very pleased and agreed to shape into the angelic form he tricked me with. I actually watched him shape-shift. It was incredible! They contort their bodies into whatever form they want in a matter of seconds."

[TimFox]

The "Active Denial System" in your illustration is designed as a non-lethal almost-weapon to deny access past a perimeter to ones foes.
It requires very high frequency microwaves (95 GHz, in that poster), which have very shallow penetration (look up "skin depth", which is literal here).
This is not the same requirement for making remote sound.

For more relevant systems, you should research the so-called "Havana Syndrome", where different mechanisms (including ultrasound and microwave) have been proposed to understand the problem, but none (to my knowledge) have been accepted officially.

[Kim Christensen]

The CIAs are really nasty. Not only do they cause people to hear voices. They even rape people under the guise of shapeshifting reptilian cover (maybe to avoid being arrested because for this kind of report the police may send the victim to mental institution instead of arresting the perpetrator).

Why do I get this feeling that you and Bonyz are the same person? 

[planc]

The CIAs are really nasty. Not only do they cause people to hear voices. They even rape people under the guise of shapeshifting reptilian cover (maybe to avoid being arrested because for this kind of report the police may send the victim to mental institution instead of arresting the perpetrator).

Why do I get this feeling that you and Bonyz are the same person? 

Bony believes Greys are real. While I believe these are all CIA technology and mind trick.

I have a friend working in a company who has a co-worker fired because she claimed to be abducted by Greys. That's why I'm interested in these and there are hundreds of thousands of people who are into this.

For shapeshiftng reptilians that rape victims. I think they put VR helmet into their heads, one with resolution same as eye or better.

If we will have official VR system with resolution as good or better than eyes. Would it make the surrounding look the same as actual? Or would it still be video like?

About Havana syndrome. I read there were many symptoms some may even be permanent. So I'd no longer experiment with remote sound microwave equipment. Instead I'll offer a bounty. I'll pay $1000 to anyone (you or TimFox) who can design and build a fully functional remote sound microwave system. It should sound like actual sound or the best hi fidility audio system and can be sourced/located anywhere in the surrounding. I have many applications for it. For example bringing a dog to mall and aim it at the dog remotely and people would hear the dog speaking english. Or aim it at person head and he can hear my voices (me speaking) without me moving my mouth. There are hundreds of other cool applications. Please help design me one!

[TimFox]

Is it good enough if this projected audio system sounds like the bass notes escaping from the young person's pickup truck next to me at the traffic light?
My standards for high-fidelity reproduction of audio are very high.

[planc]

Is it good enough if this projected audio system sounds like the bass notes escaping from the young person's pickup truck next to me at the traffic light?
My standards for high-fidelity reproduction of audio are very high.

You are saying if you build it, the sound coming from wall would be as good as bass-notes only? Not even speaker-like quality? It's understandable since there is no speaker presence.

Some commented the implants taken from the victims seemed to composed of same ingredients (like Yttrium, Paladium) as a room temperature superconductor (source: Patient Seventeen documentary). Maybe the CIA has gotten hold this technology already to create better remote sound capability. The video mentioned of scalar wave technology being used.

"In March 2021, an announcement reported superconductivity in a layered yttrium-palladium-hydron material at 262 K and a pressure of 187 GPa. Palladium may act as a hydrogen migration catalyst in the material.[17]"

[Bud]

I'll pay $1000 to anyone (you or TimFox) who can design and build a fully functional remote sound microwave system

You are cheap, mate. Try again with x100 multiplier, and get yourself a good binoculars to watch the horizon if anyone is coming to take your offer.

[bd139]

I'll pay $1000 to anyone (you or TimFox) who can design and build a fully functional remote sound microwave system

You are cheap, mate. Try again with x100 multiplier, and get yourself a good binoculars to watch the horizon if anyone is coming to take your offer.

As someone who works in the software industry  will quite happily take that $100k off you and shovel it into subcontractors and never deliver anything other than a snazzy marketing site and some investor hype 

[Bud]

For example bringing a dog to mall and aim it at the dog remotely and people would hear the dog speaking english

Dogs are not allowed in malls 

[TimFox]

For example bringing a dog to mall and aim it at the dog remotely and people would hear the dog speaking english

Dogs are not allowed in malls 

There is an exception for talking dogs.

I find it amusing that someone thinks $1000 US is a sensible budget for a prototype development.
Ignoring my expensive time, I believe the hardware cost for the prototype would be more than that.

[Bud]

...build a fully functional remote sound microwave system. It should sound like actual sound or the best hi fidility audio system and can be sourced/located anywhere in the surrounding.

You missed a crucial requirement for the system to be of size of a TV remote control and run on two AAA batteries. Otherwise you may have a little problem with the mall Security when they see you walking in carrying a satellite dish antenna and shopping cart filled with car batteries (not counting the dog).

[Kim Christensen]

It would be much easier just to put a radio receiver into a dog collar.   

[TimFox]

It would be about the same size as Dick Tracy's old "2-way Wrist Radio".

[planc]

For example bringing a dog to mall and aim it at the dog remotely and people would hear the dog speaking english

Dogs are not allowed in malls 

There is an exception for talking dogs.

I find it amusing that someone thinks $1000 US is a sensible budget for a prototype development.
Ignoring my expensive time, I believe the hardware cost for the prototype would be more than that.

Going back to fundamental principle. How can heat cause sound waves or sonic boom to occur at all in the first place? For example. If you open and close your bread toaster, it won't produce any sound at all (simple case short of modulating it with AM). Can you give instances where heat can produce sound waves?

[fourfathom]

Going back to fundamental principle. How can heat cause sound waves or sonic boom to occur at all in the first place? For example. If you open and close your bread toaster, it won't produce any sound at all (simple case short of modulating it with AM). Can you give instances where heat can produce sound waves?

What about an electrical spark (static electricity or lighting bolt, same thing)?

[planc]

I read the above at Quora. I think what TimFox was saying was that coherent heat from microwave focus can indeed produce sound. In the following newsbit, Aaron Alexis heard voices in the wall, ceiling before he murdered 12 people at the US Navy Yard. So the CIAs probably owned the technology already. If the principle is sound (no pun intended). How isn't the product available commercially? Does it belong to Strategic Goods. Or maybe the CIAs kill people who want to develope it because they wouldn't have the toy and advantage anymore to spook people, like Aaron? Can you give example of a technology simple to make but classified or forbidden by public to build?

[planc]

Laser can also cause coherent heat, is it not? But then, could the small spot of heat enough to cause expansive sound waves at all in both microwave and laser cases? 

I'm interested in all this also because in many UFOnauts encounters, the contactees heard the creatures speak inside the brain. So how did the CIAs do it? If the CIAs are not involved, then these occur in parallel reality where the distinction of mind and matter dissolve. What is your pick? CIAs or Elementals?

[Kim Christensen]

I'm interested in all this also because in many UFOnauts encounters, the contactees heard the creatures speak inside the brain. So how did the CIAs do it?

Researchers estimate that 5% to 28% of people in the United States experience auditory hallucinations.

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, sorry to burst anyone's bubble here, but while I see absolutely no reason Earth would be the only planet hosting forms of life in the universe (the probability of this uniqueness looks so small that it doesn't make sense IMO), OTOH the probability of life from other planets visiting us - due in part to the gigantic distances - is also excessively small, and whatever the CIA is supposed to have found out and made secret (and we know how the CIA has kept a lot of secrets!) about UFOs sounds to me like a crapton of hollywoody BS.

[TimFox]

"Laser can also cause coherent heat, is it not? But then, could the small spot of heat enough to cause expansive sound waves at all in both microwave and laser cases?"

How does he think audible thunder is produced?

[Bud]

Sure enough, the gallery of poor creatures appearances ends in year 2002, pretty much Before everyone got a smartphone with a camera. Does anyone see anything wrong with that?

[planc]

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/13/1149019140/ufo-report

According to the Pentagon. The sightings were increasing.

According to John Keel. These are just decoys. The real phenomenon are the soft flexible luminous UFOs and their opeartors/occupants which can change forms and shapes. In other words. We were dealing with some kind of Mimic from the beginning. To hide their nature, they have to stage many encounters or sightings like in the occupants above. The purpose is to make it so ridiculous people just ignore them (like we do after seeing the ridiculous looking occupants). While the real phenomenon or Mimics hide in background. Also before the 1900s. There were no flying saucers, you had the phantom dirigibles, then phantom biplanes, foo fighters, etc. John Keel said the purpose of these are just decoys so people would focus on them and divert attention from the real phenomenon of soft flexible UFOs and Mimics that can change shapes etc. In other words, these soft UFOs are said to be some kind of living creates (or spirit?). After Star Wars was shown showing the Triangular destroyers. The UFOs change shapes to Black Triangles. And they have changed the frame of reference for the occupants that became Reptilians now. So these shapeless Mimics can disguise as Reptilians or countless other creatures. The idea is to make things so ridiculous no one would believe it. Then the real phenomenon can work in the background unchallenged. Reference below so you get the words direct from John Keel. (please recommend any movies or tv series with this theme because the idea of Mimics sound good. Also wished the CIAs were  responsible for all these).

[Bud]

The banned bonyz is back with his reptiloids and walls of books pages posting style, spamming the forum again. 

[Kim Christensen]

The banned bonyz is back with his reptiloids and walls of books pages posting style, spamming the forum again. 

Yup... this latest post definitely has his "voice". The references to "John Keel" and the inline book snippets are channeling bonyz perfectly...   

[SiliconWizard]

But he has the lucidity of posting in the "dodgy tech" section, so what can we say.

[planc]

We are in a global emergency so let's focus on the essential things at hand. We are not dealing with beings like us nor typical aliens like in star trek, but with something else. What is your theory?

I'll share my theory (actually theory of others). I think we are dealing with what the Quaran described as beings made of smokeless fire. That is. the Djinns. Some UFOs are the Djinns themselves or their mode of travel. There is even a book about it.

https://www.amazon.com/Djinn-Connection-Nephilim-Reptilians-Entities/dp/0985724331/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BGBN0WSQPPEN&keywords=the+djinn+connection&qid=1696890316&sprefix=the+djinn+connectio%2Caps%2C405&sr=8-1

The Djinn Connection: The Hidden Links Between Djinn, Shadow People, ETs, Nephilim, Archons, Reptilians and Other Entities
"Could a single entity be responsible for a multitude of our paranormal experiences throughout history? Drawing upon her decades of extensive research in all facets of the paranormal, Rosemary Ellen Guiley makes a compelling case that our interactions with spirits, extraterrestrials, shadow figures, ancient aliens, demi-gods and human-creature hybrids all involve the mysterious Djinn. The Djinn are little-known in the West beyond folk tales of genies in lamps and bottles, but they are real and active in our world. They are a race of powerful, masterful shape-shifters who exist in a dimension parallel to ours. Humans have had millennia of intense engagements with the Djinn, who disguise themselves in the forms of many different entities in order to keep themselves and their true motives hidden. Some of their motives are not in our best interests. The Djinn are not the only beings interacting with humans, but their giant shadow falls across every part of our paranormal and entity contact experiences, including bedroom invasions, alien abductions, and genetics manipulators from other worlds. The Djinn are significant force in the destiny of human beings. In The Djinn Connection, Guiley explains what we need to know and how we should respond."



In the above documented case of Dr. X. His foot got healed spontanenously. This is something that can't even be done by pranic healing. Note pranic healing is only like making you immune system optimum. So you can discern what illnesses it can cure by knowing what illnesses that can be cured when your immune system is optimal. If your have lungs infection. Can optimal immune system cure it? If not. then you take antibiotic or you die. Many people died in pranic healing by thinking it can spontaneiously cure. No. However the UFOs encountered by Dr. X can spontaneously cure, it can literally make the limp walk again. They have the power to transmute matter at the molecular level. In the video, the two objects merged into one. If they are really solid objects. Can solid objects do that? Although the Djinn ship may look like solid disc, that's for display or outward appearance only. The real ship is made of the same essence as the Djinn. Also if you got healed by Djinns, they need something in exchange...

[Kim Christensen]

What is your theory?

My theory is that a certain percentage of the population are batshit crazy. There's another percentage who are extremely gullible. Then there are those who are looking for simple answers to complex or unknown phenomena. The signal to noise ratio is so bad that I don't think any of this proves anything at all.

[SiliconWizard]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better...

[planc]

What is your theory?

My theory is that a certain percentage of the population are batshit crazy. There's another percentage who are extremely gullible. Then there are those who are looking for simple answers to complex or unknown phenomena. The signal to noise ratio is so bad that I don't think any of this proves anything at all.

Why is it so hard to accept the reality the Djinns are all over us?  Tens of thousands of people have met them. There's something that I'm still figuring out now. If Keel frame of reference means the entities need something to copy like dirigibles or foo fighters in the past. Where did they get the idea of using flying saucer? This is why I'm thinking if the Greys are the real ET (borqs) and the Djinns are separate where they acquire the appearance of the camouflage of their shapeless Ufos using the Saucer of the Greys to hide their true nature.

Also I'm thinking if Hybrids are real, whether they are Grey Hybrids or just Djinn Hybrids walking among us (which is your guess, guys?). In the following in Jacobs The Threat, an abductee was told to have oral sex with the Hybrid because she was trying to use electronic instruments to detect them..

"Five hybrids of different stages accosted Laura in her room one night. They did not like
the fact that she was using electronic instruments to detect their presence—at least that
was the excuse they used. She remembered that they had acted this way in the past, even
before she was aware of her abductions.

She was lying next to her husband when the independent hybrid activity began.
There's like five of them coming in from the foot of my bedroom.... And they're
coming in fast. They're not gray ones. There's one that looks, it looks like it's
more gray. But it's still a hybrid that's white. The one looks really close to being
human.... He's got long hair almost like [my husband] Ed's.... I think they came in
a clump. I was like on my side. The foot of the bed is down there—I was looking
down. I must've turned my head and been looking down, because there's ... I don't
think there's five of them. They came in a cluster, but the one is coming up ahead.
He doesn't look happy. He looks mean.... God, he's on top of me.

Ed is lying right next to you? Mm-hmm. There's nothing I can do. Well, was this
guy wearing anything originally?

... He's got nothing on him.... I'm looking over toward my bedroom door, 'cause
three of them are going in, they're going into the kids' room. My kids are going to
see this shit.

How do you know?

'Cause they're standing near the door.

The kids are standing in the doorway looking at you?

Yeah.

While he's on top of you?

Yeah.... I'm being told this is going to happen to my kids. If I keep this up, it's
going to happen to my kids.

If you keep ... keep this up? Keep what up? The [detector] and fighting back.
Well, he's on top of you. Is this a full-fledged business, in other words, is this just
a demonstration, or does he just—?

I don't know, it's everything. I'm wishing I was dead. I see ... he gets off of me and
there's another one coming over. I can see that first one going over to [my
daughter] Janey. Oh, God.

The first one who just got up from you? • '

Mm-hmm.

What's he doing with Janey?

He's telling me he's going to make her do things if I don't stop.

Oh, damn!

Does Janey react to this or... just stand there and absorb it? She's just real
confused.... And what's [the other one] up to?

I can't tell you. I can't. Oh, shit! Oh, God. I'm down alongside my bed on my
knees. I'm doing oral sex on this son of a bitch!... Now, this is what they're gonna
make Janey do if I don't stop this. And probably the other ones. I feel such shame.
... Now the other three kids are watching this also?

Mm-hmm.

Does this proceed all the way as well, or is it just a demonstration?

No, no, it proceeds. God!

Does this guy say anything, or is it just the main guy who's talking, the first guy?
He's not saying anything, but I can sense his anger. He can be so mean.
What happens when he's finished?

I'm standing up. They're shuffling all the kids back into their room. The first one
is right in my face. He's really angry. I'm not going to do anything. I don't want to
do anything to make them angry again."

[Kim Christensen]

Why is it so hard to accept the reality the Djinns are all over us?

Because it's not observable reality. Not by a long shot.

[Halcyon]

What is all this nonsense?

[EEVblog]

What is all this nonsense?

I don't have the spare brain cell to find out.
Wacky thread locked.