Author Topic: Ultrasonic toothbrush!  (Read 807 times)

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Offline Carrington

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Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« on: December 06, 2018, 10:19:22 am »
Philips has sonic toothbrushes: https://toothbrushbattery.com/blog/can-hack-philips-sonicare-toothbrush/
But wait, why sonic if it can be ultrasonic: https://www.emmi-dent.com/

However, in real conditions, how effective can this be?
What do you think?

Related links:


https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/electric-toothbrush-ultrasonic-transducer_60141355737.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.7.5b562e88xcqP5e
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 01:18:02 pm »
I wouldn't buy any of those; doesn't pass the sniff test for me.  If you ask me (you probably shouldn't, because I don't know much), I think those are marketing wank trying to promote an ordinary product with a small piezo transducer doing essentially nothing, using terms people have heard their dentists and dental hygienists use.

Ultrasonic removal of dental tartar and calculus (root debridement using an ultrasonic scaler) is a thing, and is much better than the old pokey-scrapey with a pointy metal bit method. Those are proper medical devices, not toothbrushes, though, and not being a medical physicist I don't know if the tech can be safely combined into a toothbrush at all.  The "ultrasonic" bit is related to cavitation, and I imagine that an actually effective ultrasonic scaler used daily would eventually erode your teeth as well.  (Same goes for ultrasonic cleaners as well; the "ultrasonic" bit is actually important here.)
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 01:51:33 pm »
The "transducer" (if you can even call it that) won't do anything. The soft bristles will absorb basically all the energy.

Ultrasonic scalers work because they're basically a dental pick with the transducer attached, which being stiff will transmit the energy to the tip and onto the teeth.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 11:08:10 pm »
I wouldn't buy any of those; doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

LOL... Well, I never thought about buying one, basically for the same reasons you expose.

I think those are marketing wank trying to promote an ordinary product with a small piezo transducer doing essentially nothing, using terms people have heard their dentists and dental hygienists use.

Yep, I agree.

Ultrasonic removal of dental tartar and calculus (root debridement using an ultrasonic scaler) is a thing, and is much better than the old pokey-scrapey with a pointy metal bit method. Those are proper medical devices, not toothbrushes, though, and not being a medical physicist I don't know if the tech can be safely combined into a toothbrush at all. 

Yeah, just like amyk wrote:
Ultrasonic scalers work because they're basically a dental pick with the transducer attached, which being stiff will transmit the energy to the tip and onto the teeth.

The "ultrasonic" bit is related to cavitation, ...

And since cavitation is the formation of vapour cavities in a liquid, it can work inside a glass full of water. But, I can't imagine brushing my teeth with my mouth full of water.

... and I imagine that an actually effective ultrasonic scaler used daily would eventually erode your teeth as well.  (Same goes for ultrasonic cleaners as well; the "ultrasonic" bit is actually important here.)

The teeth are extremely strong, they support high loads and even high temperatures. As we all know, acids are his kryptonite, also ultraviolet light.
Toothbrushes can erode the dentin a bit, but no idea of how much "damage" can cause the use of an ultrasonic scaler daily.

The "transducer" (if you can even call it that) won't do anything. The soft bristles will absorb basically all the energy.

Yes, and it looks more like a small piezoelectric speaker.



Sorry, I tend to split replies. I think it makes reading easier, and perhaps avoids misunderstandings.
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Online metrologist

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 03:21:22 am »
I tried using Sonicare for a few months. It was too intense on my gums and tongue. I think it cleaned better than a manual brush though, but clean is clean... Now I use a water pik, which I think is also important to work the gums and floss.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 03:52:48 am »
I don't know why they call it ultrasonic - the frequency is not that high. So the naming is a little confusing maybe BS, but the product itself works well.  The cleaning is intense - to compensate for that the cleaning time is reduced to 2 minutes.  Even with a manual toothbrush too much abrasion can damage the teeth, especially if whitening toothpaste is used.

I have use a Sonicare for quite a while - until one could not get the old style brushes anymore in Europe. The battery was pretty dead by than too.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 03:58:34 am »
The best (and most cheap) by far:

   -  Toothpaste:
         - Any with fluoride (more ppm, better), but without triclosan.
   - Oral Irrigator:
        - h2ofloss hf-3 Premium.
   - Electric toothbrush:
        - Philips Sonicare HX6511/50.
   - Dental floss:
        - Any, but without wax.
   - As mouthwash:
        - 1/2 Hydrogen peroxide (10 vol or 3%) + 1/2 Watter.
        - Coconut oil.

Videos:


« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 04:12:55 am by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 04:52:20 am »
I don't know why they call it ultrasonic - the frequency is not that high.

Well, "emmi-dent" claims up to 96 million air oscillations per minute (whatever that really means  :-DD ), which would suggest a transducer driven at 1.6MHz, similar to the ones used for medical ultrasound devices (usually in the MHz range as well, something between 4MHz and 20MHz most often). Definitely ultrasonic. But those transducers are not cheap at all. I have kind of a hard time believing this is really what they put inside their toothbrushes.

As others have said, I'd be wary of the result anyway - might very well erode teeth too much in the long run (if it really works), and might not be good for people having tooth prosthesis or dental implants...
 

Online metrologist

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 07:00:44 am »
I don't know why they call it ultrasonic - the frequency is not that high.

Well, "emmi-dent" claims up to 96 million air oscillations per minute (whatever that really means  :-DD ), which would suggest a transducer driven at 1.6MHz, similar to the ones used for medical ultrasound devices (usually in the MHz range as well, something between 4MHz and 20MHz most often). Definitely ultrasonic. But those transducers are not cheap at all. I have kind of a hard time believing this is really what they put inside their toothbrushes.

As others have said, I'd be wary of the result anyway - might very well erode teeth too much in the long run (if it really works), and might not be good for people having tooth prosthesis or dental implants...

I thought ultrasound was merely above human hearing, or 20kHz. I read the toothbrush is ~60kHz, so for 96 million air oscillations per second, maybe that is with 1600 bristles all vibrating at the same time...?
 

Online cdev

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 07:29:03 am »
I have a Sonicare toothbrush. The brushes themselves have to be replaced periodically, when you do that the magnets out of the used up brushes are worth saving, as they are quite strong.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online metrologist

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 07:57:39 am »
I still have mine. Maybe I'll try using it to clean flux off my boards.  :box:
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 09:10:49 am »
I have a Sonicare toothbrush. The brushes themselves have to be replaced periodically, when you do that the magnets out of the used up brushes are worth saving, as they are quite strong.
The new version is a bit better.
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 10:28:19 am »
I don't know why they call it ultrasonic - the frequency is not that high.

Well, "emmi-dent" claims up to 96 million air oscillations per minute (whatever that really means  :-DD ), which would suggest a transducer driven at 1.6MHz, similar to the ones used for medical ultrasound devices (usually in the MHz range as well, something between 4MHz and 20MHz most often). Definitely ultrasonic. But those transducers are not cheap at all. I have kind of a hard time believing this is really what they put inside their toothbrushes.

As others have said, I'd be wary of the result anyway - might very well erode teeth too much in the long run (if it really works), and might not be good for people having tooth prosthesis or dental implants...

I thought ultrasound was merely above human hearing, or 20kHz.

It's anything above what humans can hear, so around > 20 kHz.
Ultrasound scanners work at the MHz range and yes, it's acoustic waves!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ultrasound
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 07:04:51 pm »
Actually ultrasound handpieces ("mechanical" use not probes for diagnostics) is usually somewhere around 30-40kHz. Piezo crystals positioned and tuned around shaft that oscillates the tip. It is mostly accompanied by irrigation either through the tip or  along the side of the tip - cooling and debris removal purposes mostly (and sometimes aspiration).
Ultrasonic handpiece is used for plaque removal at the dentist, but it is too aggressive to be used personally and on daily basis.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2018, 07:43:04 pm »
Not sure it is ultrasonic, but the first few tomes it feels like the brush is buzzing your teeth out!
I bough one about two years ago to replace a lost Braun (all white brush in an all white hotel bathroom...).
It did do a good job, on par with the Braun.
The Philips did the have significant advantages, at the time, of a longer battery life and being quieter - at equivalent price point.
But the shaft seal broke after 10 months, water got in and it died.
Not a big deal, but how am to get a new brush in the middle of the Red Sea?

Anyhow, it got refunded, and replaced by a Braun-Colgate as by then they had caught up on the battery life and were much better on the noise.

The Braun might to be as fancy and high tech as the Philips, but in as so far as reliability goes, I have nothing to complain about (I have used them since the 90’s, and the battery seems to die after 6 or 7 years if I don’t lose it before, no mechanicals so far).
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline wbeaty

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 05:55:52 am »
If you want to experiment on your teeth, just buy a used ultrasonic scaler on eBay.

Or much cheaper on eBay is:  ULTRASONIC STAIN REMOVERS!   These things are great!  Little steel tip, and you can see a bit of nebulizer mist rising from it when wet.  Nice big PZT block, and a little mosfet half-H bridge.   Now apply directly to teeth.   No don't.   Yeesh.

PS

The cheaper emmi-dent has a case which looks a lot like those handheld fabric cleaners, (which  cost below $20.)  Maybe they used the same cheap mass-produced PZT transducer.  IIRC the fabric cleaners ran at 60KHz.  Ultrasonic cleaning tubs run at 30-60KHz, not at MHz like the mist-makers do.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:13:15 am by wbeaty »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 08:07:45 am »
I wonder what is inside the "ultrasonic dental scaler" sold on eBay for under 11 UKP or 12 €.

I especially like the sales blurb: Washing teeth with aluminium alloy is easier.

Perhaps I could descale my teeth by chewing some aluminium foil?
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Ultrasonic toothbrush!
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2018, 12:38:02 am »
My dentist says DON'T use electric toothbrushes, apparently they don't do anything like as good a job as a manual one used correctly.

Of course they are also crazy expensive compared to the ordinary kind, which leads to people continuing to use worn-out heads. 
 


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