Author Topic: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable  (Read 6000 times)

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Offline SL4P

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2021, 02:47:57 am »
I don’t think the Chinese discriminate who they screw.
As long as they get paid and are untraceable, all sales are final.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2021, 02:49:44 am »
The demand for cheap stuff is fulfilled by producing and selling cheap junk. But the cheating - often also resulting in dangerous products - seems to be a Chinese tradition (some do that, not all).

I have a theory, which is probably wrong, but which tends to fit the observed problem.

I wonder if, back in the day, when, the only real customer for electronics, & other technically advanced products was the Chinese Government, some people may have purposely made crap stuff as a way of "sticking it to the Man"----------not a wise path in those harsher times.

Perhaps this hit a popular vein, as a (slightly) safer way of protesting against the govt for any perceived wrongs.
This slowly became imbedded in popular culture, until it is regarded by many in that country & out as "tradition", even though the customers are now spread throughout the world.

Looking at the tradition of China over hundreds of years, of high quality products, & mighty engineering achievments, I find it hard to believe that making crap is really a tradition.

Have you seen some of those videos here in the forum where people in developing economies do things like fix car batteries by opening them and replacing the plates by hand...   or rebuild radiators that would be discarded anywhere else...

Basically, when the cost of labour is very low, it can make sense to have someone sit and weld new pins on scrap components.

China is still an emerging economy - or, at best, a very recently emerged one.   So, I think the reason for all the "crap" is more of a case of China still having a large number of people used to emerging economy ways of doing things, while at the same time having quite modern "solid" industry going on as well...   so basically, it matters who you deal with in that country!

 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2021, 09:02:32 am »
Perhaps this hit a popular vein, as a (slightly) safer way of protesting against the govt for any perceived wrongs.

That's the fallacy of viewing China from a Western democracy's perspective, which certainly does not model China correctly. In China, being able to work at a state owned business is an honor, it means you have been sorted out of many competitors.
I wasn't really thinking of modern China, more like 40 or so years ago, but you would know the history of your country much better than I do.
In Australia, we used to have a fair number of State & Federal govt "businesses".

When I worked in the old PMG's Dept one of the work cars had a persistent rattle in one door.
We had sent it to "Auto Plant" section multiple times to no avail (it seems  cars weren't really their "thing"-----ditchwitches, trucks, bulldozers, but not cars!).

Anyhow, the Guys decided to have a look themselves.

The fault was nothing much, & soon fixed, but they noticed while in there, that the door panel was a poor fit, & inside was scrawled "Reject or Commonwealth".
I guess I was thinking along those lines!
Quote

Everyone wants to work for the state, the pay is okay-ish (but the perks are awesome, overall you don't get a single cent less than working for a private business), no overtime, every labor force protection law is carried out by the letters (which is a privilege foreign owned businesses and state owned businesses have compared with private businesses), and the union actually has some power.

Also, unless some extreme events happened, nobody gets fired or demoted in a state owned business or at the government, which is certainly a contrast compared with private business, in a well paid private business they will fire common, non-essential workers once they are around 35~40 since their body will not allow them to work overtime that much and they start to develop diseases. So they are forced to either work for a low pay business or as a contractor, which has no protection.

If you know anyone working at a Chinese state business and is fucking around and is not fired, please let me know. I'm glad to have one more retirement option.

Most people in Oz who had never worked for the govt, believed that everybody who did, sat around doing nothing & drinking tea, served by a profusion of tea ladies.

We worked overtime, but got paid a fair rate for it, were hard to sack, had a few perks, but then again, were quite likely to be dispatched off to some desolate "cow town" thousands of km from home, for
"in the first instance" 3-6 months (maybe to be extended).

Sitting in such "temporary" appointments, we watched people in the mining industry being sent to less horrific places & making big money, whilst we were paid the same as in the city.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2021, 09:15:17 am »
The demand for cheap stuff is fulfilled by producing and selling cheap junk. But the cheating - often also resulting in dangerous products - seems to be a Chinese tradition (some do that, not all).

I have a theory, which is probably wrong, but which tends to fit the observed problem.

I wonder if, back in the day, when, the only real customer for electronics, & other technically advanced products was the Chinese Government, some people may have purposely made crap stuff as a way of "sticking it to the Man"----------not a wise path in those harsher times.

Perhaps this hit a popular vein, as a (slightly) safer way of protesting against the govt for any perceived wrongs.
This slowly became imbedded in popular culture, until it is regarded by many in that country & out as "tradition", even though the customers are now spread throughout the world.

Looking at the tradition of China over hundreds of years, of high quality products, & mighty engineering achievments, I find it hard to believe that making crap is really a tradition.

Have you seen some of those videos here in the forum where people in developing economies do things like fix car batteries by opening them and replacing the plates by hand...   or rebuild radiators that would be discarded anywhere else...

Both of those things were done on an industrial scale in Australia, until relatively recently.

There is nothing wrong with the car battery case, & if you put new  "guts" in it, you have a cheaper new battery.
Before radiator tanks started to be made out of plastic, it was quite economically viable to remove the top & bottom tanks, clean them & fit them to a new core.

Both the battery guts & radiator cores had scrap metal value-----win, win!

Now, you are stuck with "new" stuff which is crappier than the perfectly good rebuilds of yesteryear.

Quote
Basically, when the cost of labour is very low, it can make sense to have someone sit and weld new pins on scrap components.

China is still an emerging economy - or, at best, a very recently emerged one.   So, I think the reason for all the "crap" is more of a case of China still having a large number of people used to emerging economy ways of doing things, while at the same time having quite modern "solid" industry going on as well...   so basically, it matters who you deal with in that country!
 
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Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2021, 11:05:01 pm »
That's the fallacy of viewing China from a Western democracy's perspective, which certainly does not model China correctly. In China, being able to work at a state owned business is an honor, it means you have been sorted out of many competitors.

Nope. What you are describing is what was prevalent years ago with either state-owned companies or highly regulated monopolies. The West got rid of most of it when it was clear that those state-owned companies and monopolies were highly inefficient due to lack of competition, among other things.

The West today is just China tomorrow.
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2021, 11:40:40 pm »
Are there genuinely any good, cheap power supplies from China? I keep seeing a bunch on Amazon and my fingers always twitch over the add to cart button!  :D
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2021, 01:22:12 am »
That's the fallacy of viewing China from a Western democracy's perspective, which certainly does not model China correctly. In China, being able to work at a state owned business is an honor, it means you have been sorted out of many competitors.

Nope. What you are describing is what was prevalent years ago with either state-owned companies or highly regulated monopolies. The West got rid of most of it when it was clear that those state-owned companies and monopolies were highly inefficient due to lack of competition, among other things.

The West today is just China tomorrow.

It was never "clear" that they were highly inefficient.

In most cases, competition was not going to happen, as they were sold off complete to the Private Sector, who continued to have a monopoly.

Now, of course, instead of being managed by Senior Public Servants, who were paid about three to four times the average  wage, they had CEOs who were paid up to 100 times the average wage.

The Privatised Telstra took 7 years to replace a simple POTs lead in from the street pit to our house, a job that would have been done the first visit by their "inefficient" publicly owned predecessor.

Ultimately, after suffering noise problems for years, with numerous visits, the time had come for connection to NBN's "Fibre to the curb", so I tried again to get it fixed before the changeover, as it was still to be used.

Finally, a real Tech came out, & in half an hour, did what nobody else had been able to do---pulled a new cable through!
I knew what the problem was, could have done the job myself, but it was illegal for me to do so! >:(

Just about everywhere that public utilities have been privatised, the costs have skyrocketed, & service levels fallen.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2021, 01:32:31 am »
Are there genuinely any good, cheap power supplies from China? I keep seeing a bunch on Amazon and my fingers always twitch over the add to cart button!  :D

Meanwell makes some pretty decent power supplies.

I've run several for years close to their rated max power with no trouble whatsoever.

[edit] Missed the bit where you said "cheap" I think if you cheap out, then you get what you deserve. Good quality power supplies aren't expensive because of overly fat margins, they are expensive because their parts and design are chosen to be fit for purpose. That costs more than picking parts that barely meet specs.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 01:35:11 am by Dubbie »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2021, 01:40:15 am »
Just about everywhere that public utilities have been privatised, the costs have skyrocketed, & service levels fallen.

Of course, YMMV. In other places of the world privatization has played out very well. Prices didn't skyrocket, you had an influx of investment, services and availability improved.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2021, 02:22:44 am »
Just about everywhere that public utilities have been privatised, the costs have skyrocketed, & service levels fallen.

Of course, YMMV. In other places of the world privatization has played out very well. Prices didn't skyrocket, you had an influx of investment, services and availability improved.

Please give a couple of examples, so we don't have to feel so despondent!  :D
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2021, 02:27:55 am »
Are there genuinely any good, cheap power supplies from China? I keep seeing a bunch on Amazon and my fingers always twitch over the add to cart button!  :D

Meanwell makes some pretty decent power supplies.

I've run several for years close to their rated max power with no trouble whatsoever.

[edit] Missed the bit where you said "cheap" I think if you cheap out, then you get what you deserve. Good quality power supplies aren't expensive because of overly fat margins, they are expensive because their parts and design are chosen to be fit for purpose. That costs more than picking parts that barely meet specs.

Good point. I meant cheap compared to, oh, let's say, $300+. I only need max 5V for the usual ESP32/ESP8266 and various sensors.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2021, 12:47:43 am »
Please give a couple of examples, so we don't have to feel so despondent!  :D

It seems the examples are everywhere except in Australia. At least when it comes to telecom.



 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2021, 01:18:46 am »
Define efficiency.

Wait a minute! I was not greeted with the Widlar salute this time. This is not blueskull. Whoever you are, we want our blueskull back!!!

Quote
With everything deregulated we would have multiple Texas power outages already.

Anyway. Deregulation has nothing to do with privatization. We need to tell the Texans.

Quote
If not largely funded by the government, how do you expect any for-profit business will do something that the market doesn't need for now and will take years to mature?

Bell Labs comes to mind.

Government-funded is not the same thing as government-owned.

Quote
I would say China has more likely learned from Japan than the West,

Uh... How can I say this? Japan is part of uh, you know, the West. Their constitution was written under the supervision of Gen. MacArthur just after the WWII and has not been amended since.

However, none of this is what I'm talking about. You seem to claim things about China that we either see or have already seen in the West as if they were original.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2021, 01:29:23 am »
[...]
Uh... How can I say this? Japan is part of uh, you know, the West. Their constitution was written under the supervision of Gen. MacArthur just after the WWII and has not been amended since.

However, none of this is what I'm talking about. You seem to claim things about China that we either see or have already seen in the West as if they were original.

While I get where you are coming from, you can't undo all of Japanese culture with a document (constitution)!

It seems fair to say that Japan recovered from the WWII defeat by adopting a good chunk of Western culture, but the result is a unique mix of Japanese and Western.  -  Germany had a similar recovery.  It seems like if all the aggressive populist loudmouths of a country are wiped out, the country does very well for itself afterwards!  :D
 

Offline M4trix

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2021, 02:17:14 am »
Speaking of which,

from a bystander view, I see Germany is switched to self destruct mode. Not as a country but as a nation. This is mind boggling.

* M4trix went to low-profile mode  :-X   
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2021, 04:30:00 am »
Speaking of which,

from a bystander view, I see Germany is switched to self destruct mode. Not as a country but as a nation. This is mind boggling.

* M4trix went to low-profile mode  :-X   

Many countries would be happy to "self destruct" like Germany...   LOL!  :D
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2021, 10:08:33 am »
Speaking of which,

from a bystander view, I see Germany is switched to self destruct mode. Not as a country but as a nation. This is mind boggling.


I'd rather say, we learned our lesson of "nationalism leads nowhere, at least not into the future".
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2021, 01:06:44 pm »
Just about everywhere that public utilities have been privatised, the costs have skyrocketed, & service levels fallen.

Of course, YMMV. In other places of the world privatization has played out very well. Prices didn't skyrocket, you had an influx of investment, services and availability improved.

Please give a couple of examples, so we don't have to feel so despondent!  :D
I agree with bsfee, YMMV. Brasil and Argentina are two examples that I know had services improved but, due to some differences in politics and regulation during this process, Argentina fared much worse due to the absolute lack of checks and balances from Menen and their populist Peronist idiots.

Ar least in Brasil, both in telephony and the local energy distribution sectors (the two that I had access and practical experience), the crews were better trained (judging by the quality of service in their distribution panels) but they would be so capped in numbers that a service order would take forever to be fulfilled. Not to mention the absolute mess that it was to get a new phone line, for example (they were so expensive and limited that you had to declare them as an asset in your tax return) or the absolute slowness in modernization. All this changed radically after the privatization. A similar scenario was found in the electrical distribution, where local blackouts or expansion and new intallations were frequently hit by crew capacity and lack of modernization in infrastructure.

Was it all roses? Of course not, as you could clearly see from the degradation in the quality of work on the panels. However, the benefits easily surpassed the hurdles (availability, reduction in tariffs). This was also possible due to the enforcement regulation that Brasil applied to the new incumbent companies, so it could avoid massive layoffs and dilapidation as it happened in other places (the one I remember vividly was in Argentina and their national airliner after was purchased by Iberia).

The two major remaining government monopoly companies in Brasil (Correios and Petrobrás) and lots of state owned credit unions have been target of massive corruption scandals after the privatizations of the 1990s.

So yeah, from my perspective, the government owned companies are the most inneficient and the privatized ones must be regulated by powerful government agencies so they don't fall (too much) to greed.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2021, 03:42:31 pm »
Just about everywhere that public utilities have been privatised, the costs have skyrocketed, & service levels fallen.

Of course, YMMV. In other places of the world privatization has played out very well. Prices didn't skyrocket, you had an influx of investment, services and availability improved.

Please give a couple of examples, so we don't have to feel so despondent!  :D
I agree with bsfee, YMMV. Brasil and Argentina are two examples that I know had services improved but, due to some differences in politics and regulation during this process, Argentina fared much worse due to the absolute lack of checks and balances from Menen and their populist Peronist idiots.

Ar least in Brasil, both in telephony and the local energy distribution sectors (the two that I had access and practical experience), the crews were better trained (judging by the quality of service in their distribution panels) but they would be so capped in numbers that a service order would take forever to be fulfilled. Not to mention the absolute mess that it was to get a new phone line, for example (they were so expensive and limited that you had to declare them as an asset in your tax return) or the absolute slowness in modernization. All this changed radically after the privatization. A similar scenario was found in the electrical distribution, where local blackouts or expansion and new intallations were frequently hit by crew capacity and lack of modernization in infrastructure.

Was it all roses? Of course not, as you could clearly see from the degradation in the quality of work on the panels. However, the benefits easily surpassed the hurdles (availability, reduction in tariffs). This was also possible due to the enforcement regulation that Brasil applied to the new incumbent companies, so it could avoid massive layoffs and dilapidation as it happened in other places (the one I remember vividly was in Argentina and their national airliner after was purchased by Iberia).

The two major remaining government monopoly companies in Brasil (Correios and Petrobrás) and lots of state owned credit unions have been target of massive corruption scandals after the privatizations of the 1990s.

So yeah, from my perspective, the government owned companies are the most inneficient and the privatized ones must be regulated by powerful government agencies so they don't fall (too much) to greed.

It's almost like we need a good private sector, and good government - both - ...  like two wings of a bird...   in order to fly!   :D
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2021, 04:00:41 pm »
It's almost like we need a good private sector, and good government - both - ...  like two wings of a bird...   in order to fly!   :D
Yes, that would be certainly the ideal world :-+

My dad made his career on the public sector and I remember his and his friend's stories about the ups and downs created by the environment and employment. I work on the private sector and have been identifying similarities and differences between the two. Nothing is perfect, unfortunately.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline noobiedoobie

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2021, 04:35:00 pm »
For small, cheap, one off projects that may get cannibalized or integrated in a bigger project, I recommend power modules from Mornsun, a well established industrial power module vendor in China.

Whenever I need something like a small isolation module or an aux power supply for prototyping, I go to them. They operate in the US, so you can get samples quickly.

I found this LS01-K3B05SS from mornsun but the damn thing needs a 1.2mh inductor and two 220uf capacitors for the input pi filter. The inductor from murata itself costs more than the power supply module. What would be the solution in this case?
The caps and inductors are a problem not just cost wise but in terms of form factor also
Test Equipment distributors are as irrelevant as the letter 'K' in the word Knife.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2021, 04:49:01 pm »
For small, cheap, one off projects that may get cannibalized or integrated in a bigger project, I recommend power modules from Mornsun, a well established industrial power module vendor in China.

Whenever I need something like a small isolation module or an aux power supply for prototyping, I go to them. They operate in the US, so you can get samples quickly.

I found this LS01-K3B05SS from mornsun but the damn thing needs a 1.2mh inductor and two 220uf capacitors for the input pi filter. The inductor from murata itself costs more than the power supply module. What would be the solution in this case?
The caps and inductors are a problem not just cost wise but in terms of form factor also


Have you considered several smaller/cheaper inductors in series,  and caps in parallel?  Sometimes that works out cheaper and/or easier to package.

I guess the choice is between something that works at a high frequency with smaller components,  or at a lower frequency with larger ones.

Maybe the higher frequency chips become more expensive to make up for the smaller external components...

 

Offline noobiedoobie

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2021, 07:53:58 pm »
Yes but CKL0514-1.2mH/K has a max current of 180ma and an ESP8266 on full rf power requires 170ma. That leaves nothing to do anything else.

Its difficult to balance form factor and cost.

Also the LS-K series from mornsun is great in terms of form factor but it defeats purpose if it needs a huge inductor for 1W to suppress ripple.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 08:45:12 am by noobiedoobie »
Test Equipment distributors are as irrelevant as the letter 'K' in the word Knife.
 

Offline noobiedoobie

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Re: New powersuply from china ,if you think you saw it all . Unbelievable
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2021, 08:25:31 am »

Have you considered several smaller/cheaper inductors in series,  and caps in parallel?  Sometimes that works out cheaper and/or easier to package.

I guess the choice is between something that works at a high frequency with smaller components,  or at a lower frequency with larger ones.

Maybe the higher frequency chips become more expensive to make up for the smaller external components...

Yes I have, thats one alternative I have reserved for the end when there is no other way
Test Equipment distributors are as irrelevant as the letter 'K' in the word Knife.
 


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