Wireless charging road? The future?

[jacklee]

They start this project seems three years ago, I wonder if that comes true. Electric vehicle is the future for sure, if it has been come true, I would like to know  
https://youtu.be/GNPXLk9ILgw?t=98

[AVGresponding]

They start this project seems three years ago, I wonder if that comes true. Electric vehicle is the future for sure, if it has been come true, I would like to know  
https://youtu.be/GNPXLk9ILgw?t=98

Wireless charging is such an inefficient way to transfer energy, that until we have a Mr Fusion in every home, it belongs in the Dodgy Technology section.

Mass adoption of EV's will be hard enough on existing electrical distribution networks, without adding in a 5% efficient end-user-point.

[pcprogrammer]

Apart from the inefficiency, what about the needed resources like copper to get things operational. Already a big problem in getting the ambitious plans of Europe fulfilled. By 2035 all vehicles electric. Is there enough copper and lithium on the planet should be the question and what is the environmental impact on harvesting these resources.

The same goes for all the solar-panels and windmills. Have not looked at the latest figures, but I know from the early days of windmills that they did not delivered constantly enough to be worth the deployment, and yet they are everywhere now. Same for solar-panels. In the Netherlands grasslands are being filled with panels, whilst the network to transfer the power is not up to the task.

To my opinion it has nothing to do with saving the environment, but more with economics and keeping the growth in it. Don't have a solution either, just observations and questions.

If this is not the place for this kind of remarks, let me know and I will remove them.

[james_s]

Wireless charging roads are silly, as pointed out the efficiency will never be good enough to make it worthwhile. Charging is largely a solved problem, it's possible to charge at home, there is destination charging, and there are rapid chargers for those times when extra juice is needed, these are only going to get more numerous.

Filling undeveloped land with solar panels is a bit silly I think, it makes a lot more sense to put them on roofs. I've said this before, until every viable roof is covered in solar panels there is no need to even consider putting them anywhere else.

[Andrew_Debbie]

They start this project seems three years ago, I wonder if that comes true. Electric vehicle is the future for sure, if it has been come true, I would like to know  
https://youtu.be/GNPXLk9ILgw?t=98

Solution in search of a problem.      I've been driving an electric car since 2014.    Electric cars are best charged overnight.

Main issues:
It would be very expensive and disruptive to implement.
Most charging would be during peak hours. This would cause massive increase in peak demand.  Widespread implementation would require massive investment in generation, storage and transmission.   
Current EVs are incompatible.
Wireless charging is lossy compared to a direct connction.   Low loss requires a very small distance between the road and the pickup on the vehicle.  Not a problem for stationary chargers but difficult to implement for a moving vehicle.

[Andrew_Debbie]

The same goes for all the solar-panels and windmills. Have not looked at the latest figures, but I know from the early days of windmills that they did not delivered constantly enough to be worth the deployment, and yet they are everywhere now. Same for solar-panels. In the Netherlands grasslands are being filled with panels, whilst the network to transfer the power is not up to the task.

Wind turbine design has improved.   The latest designs  generate meaningful power even in light wind.    Solar panals have also improved.  Cost has gone down. On shore wind is  the least expensive form of new power generation.   Scotland now generates about 97% of demand from renewables.    Onshore wind is the largest component of that.   It can be done. 


Link:
https://www.scottishrenewables.com/our-industry/statistics

[tautech]

Low loss requires a very small distance between the road and the pickup on the vehicle. 

Yet one of our customers was achieving 7kW over 200mm in development testing using wireless power transfer 2 years ago.
A lot of development work is being put into this.

[Andrew_Debbie]

Low loss requires a very small distance between the road and the pickup on the vehicle. 

Yet one of our customers was achieving 7kW over 200mm in development testing using wireless power transfer 2 years ago.
A lot of development work is being put into this.

Wireless charging for parked cars has possible applications, for example disabled parking bays.     EVs  adapted to drivers with restricted mobility could also have wireless charging retrofitted.   


For most of us, wireless charging is another a solution looking for a problem.  In my experience most of these solutions come from people who haven't lived with an EV.  It is easier to plug in an EV than refuel a combustion engine car.     

We do need charging where cars are parked.   Ubitricity retrofit charge connectors to lamp posts and also install new curbside posts. Billing is handled by a smart cable.    Shell recently purchased them which could lead to a large expansion of the network.

[tautech]

Until someone steals your cable. 

Smart wireless charging is where I believe EV's are heading when technology is further developed and costs lower.

AFAIK from other EV threads in some counties wireless pads are fitted at EV bus stops where squatting buses grab whatever charge the can while passengers get on and off.

[Andrew_Debbie]

Cable locks to the car and the charge point.       Doesn't stop a dedicated theif but it will prevent casual vandalism.


The ubitricty cables are smart.   Using a stolen one will probably just get you caught.

 Cuting the ends off and selling the copper may become a real problem.

[nctnico]

For most of us, wireless charging is another a solution looking for a problem.  In my experience most of these solutions come from people who haven't lived with an EV.  It is easier to plug in an EV than refuel a combustion engine car.     

That is because you are still on the 'I bought a BEV so it must be good' high. In reality having to plug in an EV all the time is a major nuisance for BEV owners according to an enquiry amongst German BEV owners. Personally I'd really like wireless charging for a BEV because I hate needing to plug in stuff all the time versus going to the gas station aroung the corner once a month or so. It is just more clutter I can do without and handling a cable drenged in cat wee and dog sh#t isn't my favorite hobby. But the point is moot anyway. I won't be buying a BEV which needs to be plugged in all the time; such BEVs will very likely be obsolete in the next decade along with the charging infrastructure. The arrival of better batteries which can be fast charged in 5 minutes and drive 600km to 700km on such a charge enables that. Charging at home is just a temporary crutch.

BTW: it is also funny to see so much nonsense about the efficiency of wireless charging. Nowadays a good wireless charging system can achieve >80% efficiency over large distances. Don't believe everything Dave says in his videos!

Anyway, this forum section is the wrong one for this thread.

[Andrew_Debbie]

That is because you are still on the 'I bought a BEV so it must be good' high.

I've been driving a BEV for 7 years.   It must be good. 

[pcprogrammer]

looking at the video pointed to in the original post, to me says it is not so much wireless charging, but much more wireless driving. Around 0:36 in the video they talk about not having heavy batteries in the vehicle. Sure you still need batteries to run on roads that do not have the wireless support.

I agree with nctnico on the need for better batteries that charge in 5 minutes and give a long range. This way the experience comes near what it is now with petrol. When driving a long distance you don't like to sit at a charging station for hours before you can continue your trip. Even if it is only half an hour it is more then with taking in petrol and if it then only takes you 150KM and you have to repeat that, a 1000KM journey will take you much longer. For me that was an important reason not to go for an electric vehicle. Did consider a hybrid, but that was outside the budget

By posting I keep this one alive, I know. Also agree with nctnico this is not the section for it.

[Fungus]

one of our customers was achieving 7kW over 200mm in development testing using wireless power transfer 2 years ago.

Um, yes, but what was the efficiency?

Much more important: What will be the efficiency of moving vehicles? They aren't sat perfectly over a coil, they'll be misaligned most of the time.

FWIW I think tech exists to have a pickup coil that lowers towards the ground when you're on the move. Distances could be much less than 200mm. Maybe as low as 20mm on a well maintained road. All you need is good ride height sensors and aerodynamics that use the Bernoulli effect nicely.

Apart from the inefficiency, what about the needed resources like copper to get things operational.

It could be done with aluminum - which will be really cheap when we get enough renewable power that we don't know what else to do with it on very windy days.

But... even so it's a stupid idea.

Short version: Yes the tech exists, no argument there. No, it's not practical. Not today and probably not in the future.

[Bud]

People please help stop contaminating Test Equipment section. Do not reply to this silly topic.

[james_s]

That is because you are still on the 'I bought a BEV so it must be good' high. In reality having to plug in an EV all the time is a major nuisance for BEV owners according to an enquiry amongst German BEV owners.

Bullshit.

As I've said many other times, I know quite a few people now who have EVs, several of them have been driving them for years, every single one of them loves being able to just plug it at home and charge overnight instead of ever having to get gas. That is literally the number one thing ALL of them talk about being so great. You pop up in every single one of these EV related threads and start spouting this nonsense. I'm going to wager you have never driven an EV even once, probably never even rode in one and you certainly have not owned one, yet you are very opinionated and very hung up on the charging aspect and continue to insist things don't work when somehow magically millions of other people are doing those things every day.

I would LOVE to be able to fuel my gasoline powered car at home, I would gladly give up the ability to fill the tank quickly at a gas station if I could just plug a hose into the tank and have it fill in my driveway, even if it took 12 hours to fill it up from empty, that would be fantastic, I hate having to remember to go get gas. If I didn't love my specific older car I'd get an EV, I drove a Tesla for a few days and it was fantastic. Horrible dashboard but the drivetrain was wonderful, it makes every other car I've ever driven feel slow, laggy and noisy. I plug in my phone every night already and could plug in my car just the same, it feels very natural.

[james_s]

People please help stop contaminating Test Equipment section. Do not reply to this silly topic.

I didn't notice it was posted in Test Equipment, why?! Maybe the mods can move it to the proper location.

[james_s]

I agree with nctnico on the need for better batteries that charge in 5 minutes and give a long range. This way the experience comes near what it is now with petrol. When driving a long distance you don't like to sit at a charging station for hours before you can continue your trip. Even if it is only half an hour it is more then with taking in petrol and if it then only takes you 150KM and you have to repeat that, a 1000KM journey will take you much longer. For me that was an important reason not to go for an electric vehicle. Did consider a hybrid, but that was outside the budget

We're already there, Tesla Supercharger can charge to 50% in about 20 minutes and can give you a significant amount of range in just 5 or 10 minutes, my dad had a Tesla for a while and relied exclusively on superchargers and destination charging, it worked fine, he loved it. This problem has already been solved. We don't need EVs to mimic the petrol experience, like making LED bulbs that get hot and crap out after 750 hours like incandescent bulbs. They should provide a better experience, and overnight charging combined with the ability to stop and add a bit more range at a rapid charger during those times you need it is a better experience. You don't have to mess around with stinky liquids, just plug in the cord, take a brief stroll, use the restroom and/or grab a snack, by the time you've stretched your legs and are ready to continue on your journey you've got the charge you need.

Also how often do you actually take a 1,000km journey? I can count on my fingers the number of times I've driven further than 300 miles in a day throughout my entire life. It's such an infrequent occurrence that I could easily rent a more suitable car for those specific trips. It would be silly to buy a car that covers every conceivable edge case when I could get one that is better for 95% of what I use a car for and rent a different one for the rare edge cases.

[Simon]

It beggars belief that people can be this stupid. I'm almost surprised they didn't just go the full hog roast of bullshit and make it over unity by proposing a magnetic track with coils in cars......

[Fungus]

It beggars belief that people can be this stupid. I'm almost surprised they didn't just go the full hog roast of bullshit and make it over unity by proposing a magnetic track with coils in cars......

You forgot the windmill on the roof to charge the battery as you drive along. 

[SiliconWizard]

They start this project seems three years ago, I wonder if that comes true. Electric vehicle is the future for sure, if it has been come true, I would like to know  
https://youtu.be/GNPXLk9ILgw?t=98

Wireless charging is such an inefficient way to transfer energy, that until we have a Mr Fusion in every home, it belongs in the Dodgy Technology section.

Mass adoption of EV's will be hard enough on existing electrical distribution networks, without adding in a 5% efficient end-user-point.

Yep...
As you said, anyway, charging roads or not, unless Mr Fusion is there, "mass" adoption of EV's to the same extent as ICE vehicles will never happen. Looks like basic maths really. I guess we all know that EVs completely replacing ICE Vs will mean much fewer people using a car. Much, much fewer.

[Simon]

It beggars belief that people can be this stupid. I'm almost surprised they didn't just go the full hog roast of bullshit and make it over unity by proposing a magnetic track with coils in cars......

You forgot the windmill on the roof to charge the battery as you drive along. 

I apologize profusely, I did, do we need solar panels on it and a solar/wind sail to to counteract the drag of the wind turbine. Hold on don't those roads perpetually tilt? or doesn't the earth spin so fast that if you grease the road the car will just slide along on it?

[Simon]

Yep...
As you said, anyway, charging roads or not, unless Mr Fusion is there, "mass" adoption of EV's to the same extent as ICE vehicles will never happen. Looks like basic maths really. I guess we all know that EVs completely replacing ICE Vs will mean much fewer people using a car. Much, much fewer.

it is the preserve of those of us that drive further making it viable. but all things change. i see more and more on the road these days on my long commute. I left my job interview thinking, what will driving an electric car be like. The math was pretty obvious before I even got the calculator out and proved it so. And it's just so much fun pissing those Audi/BMW/Mercedes drivers off when I get to the end of a 30 with the speed limiter on and my foot flat on the floor, touch the limiter disable and I am off before they can even contemplate overtaking me like they were thinking of doing all through the 30 because I was sticking to the limit.

[pcprogrammer]

I agree with nctnico on the need for better batteries that charge in 5 minutes and give a long range. This way the experience comes near what it is now with petrol. When driving a long distance you don't like to sit at a charging station for hours before you can continue your trip. Even if it is only half an hour it is more then with taking in petrol and if it then only takes you 150KM and you have to repeat that, a 1000KM journey will take you much longer. For me that was an important reason not to go for an electric vehicle. Did consider a hybrid, but that was outside the budget

We're already there, Tesla Supercharger can charge to 50% in about 20 minutes and can give you a significant amount of range in just 5 or 10 minutes, my dad had a Tesla for a while and relied exclusively on superchargers and destination charging, it worked fine, he loved it. This problem has already been solved. We don't need EVs to mimic the petrol experience, like making LED bulbs that get hot and crap out after 750 hours like incandescent bulbs. They should provide a better experience, and overnight charging combined with the ability to stop and add a bit more range at a rapid charger during those times you need it is a better experience. You don't have to mess around with stinky liquids, just plug in the cord, take a brief stroll, use the restroom and/or grab a snack, by the time you've stretched your legs and are ready to continue on your journey you've got the charge you need.

Also how often do you actually take a 1,000km journey? I can count on my fingers the number of times I've driven further than 300 miles in a day throughout my entire life. It's such an infrequent occurrence that I could easily rent a more suitable car for those specific trips. It would be silly to buy a car that covers every conceivable edge case when I could get one that is better for 95% of what I use a car for and rent a different one for the rare edge cases.

Twice a year to visit the parents, and even with stopping for petrol it is already a long drive of about 10 hours. Adding another hour or more is killing But you are right a rental for such occasions could do. Unfortunately an electric car was also above budget. Our car usage is not that much (less then 8000KM per year), and most of the time only once a week for the shopping's, so not a big contribution to the whole pollution deal.

[Ben321]

I think that EVs overall are not a general replacement for cars. It takes hours to charge a battery to maximum. It takes only minutes to refill a gas tank. When I was a kid, my parents took me on long car trips to other states. That's right, we drove, not flew, if we wanted to go anywhere, even as far as literally to the other side of the country. Each day we would drive like 300 or 400 miles, and it would take several days to get across the country. Each day, we would need to stop for gas a couple times per day during these long drives. Those were FUN trips, and would NOT have been possible with an electric car. An electric car is good only for ordinary daily commutes, where you drive to your job in the morning, and then drive home in the evening, and recharge your car overnight.

[Simon]

An electric car is good only for ordinary daily commutes, where you drive to your job in the morning, and then drive home in the evening, and recharge your car overnight.

 

Because so few of us do that mundane thing called working for a living.......  this electric shit will never take off. So once you could fill up in five minutes? guess what, things change  cars that do 200+miles like my Zoe are now available, did you people never stop for lunch? Such a life changing experience, to spend all day in a car and never actually get out and experience the world.

[Ben321]

An electric car is good only for ordinary daily commutes, where you drive to your job in the morning, and then drive home in the evening, and recharge your car overnight.

 

Because so few of us do that mundane thing called working for a living.......  this electric shit will never take off. So once you could fill up in five minutes? guess what, things change  cars that do 200+miles like my Zoe are now available, did you people never stop for lunch? Such a life changing experience, to spend all day in a car and never actually get out and experience the world.

Of course people need to drive to work. But why have one car for a daily commute, and one car for long trips. That's expensive to have 2 cars. Most people just have one car. They use that one for both their daily commute and for trips. That's much more economically feasible for the average person.

On trips I was on with my parents, yes we would get out for lunch, and see things on the way. But the fact is, car charges wouldn't be feasible for most lunch breaks. It takes several hours (and I mean like 6 to 8 hours, possibly more), not a half hour, to fully recharge an EV, depending on how far discharged the battery was at the time you started recharging. A reasonable partial recharge could probably be done if you were at a major point of interest, like a museum, where you could spend an hour or two at a museum or natural landmark, but it still wouldn't be close to a full recharge, so hopefully your total driving distance that day wouldn't be too long. An EV would be possible, if your motel for the night was once every 200 miles, but that would add many days to the length of the overall trip, and cost more money for more meals and more lodging. The trip would be much more expensive. Typically on a long trip you see a few things along the way, but what you REALLY want to see is what's near your destination. That's why it's your destination. So fewer days to get to your destination is better.

[SiliconWizard]

(I'm not sure I fully get the real idea behind Simon's last few posts... Dunno if I'm the only one here.)

[pcprogrammer]

... what you REALLY want to see is what's near your destination. That's why it's your destination. So fewer days to get to your destination is better.

I totally agree. We only go for less then a week, so adding extra time just to stay overnight in some hotel or b&b not really wort it. (The in-laws are very nice people, but to long will drive me and my wife crazy and mine are no longer there) So it is to see some friends, do some shopping and back to rural France, where nature is all around us. And along the route there is not a lot we haven't seen already. When you get older and have traveled quite a bit of the world you have already seen a lot.

[Simon]

But the fact is, car charges wouldn't be feasible for most lunch breaks. It takes several hours (and I mean like 6 to 8 hours, possibly more), not a half hour, to fully recharge an EV, depending on how far discharged the battery was at the time you started recharging.

Granted they take some time but that is rather an exaggeration. My Zoe claims to be 3 hours and the more empty you are the faster the charge is.

Ultimately people who jump up and down demanding the right to have it as they always have need to think again. Laws of physics, nature, the planet, climate change and many other things bigger than humanity could not give a stuff about their petty whims.

Oil will run out or become so expensive to extract that electric will be even cheaper to run as petrol becomes the preserve of the rich for their fleets of gas guzzling vintage treasures worth 100'000s.

Technology will improve and ultimately be thankful you are alive now and not 200 years in the future when we start to run out of everything and a Victorian lifestyle will look like luxury.....

[Fungus]

Each day we would drive like 300 or 400 miles, and it would take several days to get across the country. Each day, we would need to stop for gas a couple times per day during these long drives. Those were FUN trips, and would NOT have been possible with an electric car. An electric car is good only for ordinary daily commutes, where you drive to your job in the morning, and then drive home in the evening, and recharge your car overnight.

You can rent a car for those trips. You can even pay for the rental with all the money you save by not filling up with gas.

Plugging in at home instead of driving out of your way to the gas station on your commute is also a lot of fun. So is being able to relax your legs and take your hands off the wheel while moving. Being the driver for 400 miles without those things? Nowhere near as much fun as being a kid sat in the back of a car.

the fact is, car charges wouldn't be feasible for most lunch breaks. It takes several hours (and I mean like 6 to 8 hours, possibly more), not a half hour, to fully recharge an EV

Who says you have to fully charge it every time?

I assume you stopped to eat on those trips? A supercharger can add 100 miles to your EV in 10 minutes. On a 30-minute lunch break you're looking at adding 200 miles or more. Where's the problem...?

[pcprogrammer]

You can rent a car for those trips. You can even pay for the rental with all the money you save by not filling up with gas.

Plugging in at home instead of driving out of your way to the gas station on your commute is also a lot of fun. So is being able to relax your legs and take your hands off the wheel while moving. Being the driver for 400 miles without those things? Nowhere near as much fun as being a kid sat in the back of a car.

Plugging in at home also costs money. Probably depends on where you live how much the difference in price per kilometer (mile for the non metric people ) will be. In the Netherlands petrol is more expensive due to an old extra tax on it. (Het kwartje van Kok, A quarter guilder added as a temporary measure to reduce consumption. Was an idea in the time of Wim Kok running the country) Here in France it is also expensive but more affordable.

[Fungus]

Plugging in at home also costs money.

Currently about half as much as gasoline.

[tszaboo]

For most of us, wireless charging is another a solution looking for a problem.  In my experience most of these solutions come from people who haven't lived with an EV.  It is easier to plug in an EV than refuel a combustion engine car.     

That is because you are still on the 'I bought a BEV so it must be good' high. In reality having to plug in an EV all the time is a major nuisance for BEV owners according to an enquiry amongst German BEV owners. Personally I'd really like wireless charging for a BEV because I hate needing to plug in stuff all the time versus going to the gas station aroung the corner once a month or so. It is just more clutter I can do without and handling a cable drenged in cat wee and dog sh#t isn't my favorite hobby. But the point is moot anyway. I won't be buying a BEV which needs to be plugged in all the time; such BEVs will very likely be obsolete in the next decade along with the charging infrastructure. The arrival of better batteries which can be fast charged in 5 minutes and drive 600km to 700km on such a charge enables that. Charging at home is just a temporary crutch.

BTW: it is also funny to see so much nonsense about the efficiency of wireless charging. Nowadays a good wireless charging system can achieve >80% efficiency over large distances. Don't believe everything Dave says in his videos!

Anyway, this forum section is the wrong one for this thread.

I hear about this. The issue is two fold:
Many Germans receive company cars with fuel cards. They nowadays receive a plug-in hybrid, that they can connect at home. However their employer pays for fuel, and not electricity. So if they plug in their car, they have to pay for electricity while driving, while if they don't they can drive for "free" on petrol. Self interest dictates not to plug in the car. The issue is with the incentives, and not with the technology.
The clear issue is the governments laws and taxes, like 90% of the time.
Similar issue here in NL, where there is 0 incentive to get a plug-in car (compared to a petrol), even if you could use it without petrol 80% of the time. No tax break. And we have like the most expensive electricity anywhere, anyway.

[esepecesito]

For most of us, wireless charging is another a solution looking for a problem.  In my experience most of these solutions come from people who haven't lived with an EV.  It is easier to plug in an EV than refuel a combustion engine car.     

That is because you are still on the 'I bought a BEV so it must be good' high. In reality having to plug in an EV all the time is a major nuisance for BEV owners according to an enquiry amongst German BEV owners. Personally I'd really like wireless charging for a BEV because I hate needing to plug in stuff all the time versus going to the gas station aroung the corner once a month or so. It is just more clutter I can do without and handling a cable drenged in cat wee and dog sh#t isn't my favorite hobby. But the point is moot anyway. I won't be buying a BEV which needs to be plugged in all the time; such BEVs will very likely be obsolete in the next decade along with the charging infrastructure. The arrival of better batteries which can be fast charged in 5 minutes and drive 600km to 700km on such a charge enables that. Charging at home is just a temporary crutch.

BTW: it is also funny to see so much nonsense about the efficiency of wireless charging. Nowadays a good wireless charging system can achieve >80% efficiency over large distances. Don't believe everything Dave says in his videos!

Anyway, this forum section is the wrong one for this thread.

I hear about this. The issue is two fold:
Many Germans receive company cars with fuel cards. They nowadays receive a plug-in hybrid, that they can connect at home. However their employer pays for fuel, and not electricity. So if they plug in their car, they have to pay for electricity while driving, while if they don't they can drive for "free" on petrol. Self interest dictates not to plug in the car. The issue is with the incentives, and not with the technology.
The clear issue is the governments laws and taxes, like 90% of the time.
Similar issue here in NL, where there is 0 incentive to get a plug-in car (compared to a petrol), even if you could use it without petrol 80% of the time. No tax break. And we have like the most expensive electricity anywhere, anyway.

I do not think Germany is a country where giving up the internal combustion engine is a priority

[pcprogrammer]

I do not think Germany is a country where giving up the internal combustion engine is a priority

If it is up to the EU they will have to by 2035. That is what Frans Timmermans of the EU came with a couple of day's ago. All vehicles with a combustion engine should be replaced by electric vehicles if it is up to them. Probably it will end up as with so many of these plans, not going to be realized by that date

Edit: Either the RTL4 news interpreted it wrong or I did. Looked on the net just now and the plan is to stop production of combustion engine vehicles by 2035.

[Simon]

Plugging in at home also costs money.

Currently about half as much as gasoline.

that much? I pay 5p/kWh and I actually generate what I use but reclaim at at night. So I get 4+ m/kWh, that's 1.25p/m, my fiesta cost 16p/mile. For my raw energy use I only "import" my heating/cooking gas but am a fan of my little electric oven, much more efficient to make a little heat in an enclosed box than have to fan flames in a big box that then lets more the heat out with the exhaust gas.

[Simon]

You can rent a car for those trips. You can even pay for the rental with all the money you save by not filling up with gas.

Plugging in at home instead of driving out of your way to the gas station on your commute is also a lot of fun. So is being able to relax your legs and take your hands off the wheel while moving. Being the driver for 400 miles without those things? Nowhere near as much fun as being a kid sat in the back of a car.

Plugging in at home also costs money. Probably depends on where you live how much the difference in price per kilometer (mile for the non metric people ) will be. In the Netherlands petrol is more expensive due to an old extra tax on it. (Het kwartje van Kok, A quarter guilder added as a temporary measure to reduce consumption. Was an idea in the time of Wim Kok running the country) Here in France it is also expensive but more affordable.

Petrol will always be more expensive, just think of the production processes, from start to finish, you tell me, which is more complicated. If you are sailing and trucking your energy around it will always cost more than piping and cable transmission.

[pcprogrammer]

Petrol will always be more expensive, just think of the production processes, from start to finish, you tell me, which is more complicated. If you are sailing and trucking your energy around it will always cost more than piping and cable transmission.

You forgot about taxes. In the Netherlands they are a fixed tax of 82.1 cent per liter which is about 41% of the current price plus vat which is another 17% on the total price. So 58% is direct income for the Dutch government.

For the dutch readers, references to my sources:
https://www.unitedconsumers.com/tanken/informatie/opbouw-brandstofprijzen.asp
https://www.anwb.nl/auto/autobelastingen/brandstofprijzen

[Simon]

Petrol will always be more expensive, just think of the production processes, from start to finish, you tell me, which is more complicated. If you are sailing and trucking your energy around it will always cost more than piping and cable transmission.

You forgot about taxes. In the Netherlands they are a fixed tax of 82.1 cent per liter which is about 41% of the current price plus vat which is another 17% on the total price. So 58% is direct income for the Dutch government.

For the dutch readers, references to my sources:
https://www.unitedconsumers.com/tanken/informatie/opbouw-brandstofprijzen.asp
https://www.anwb.nl/auto/autobelastingen/brandstofprijzen

Really? you don't say? hear ~70% of what we pay for fuel is tax before VAT is added!, wake up! This is universal I think all countries are charging 3 times what the companies selling it are actually selling it for!

[SiliconWizard]

Petrol will always be more expensive, just think of the production processes, from start to finish, you tell me, which is more complicated. If you are sailing and trucking your energy around it will always cost more than piping and cable transmission.

You forgot about taxes. In the Netherlands they are a fixed tax of 82.1 cent per liter which is about 41% of the current price plus vat which is another 17% on the total price. So 58% is direct income for the Dutch government.

For the dutch readers, references to my sources:
https://www.unitedconsumers.com/tanken/informatie/opbouw-brandstofprijzen.asp
https://www.anwb.nl/auto/autobelastingen/brandstofprijzen

Really? you don't say? hear ~70% of what we pay for fuel is tax before VAT is added!, wake up! This is universal I think all countries are charging 3 times what the companies selling it are actually selling it for!

A lot more than 3 times.

[Simon]

I suspect that tax will have to be put on electricity at some point or taxes paid some other way but still electric is 3x the efficiency of fuel so I suspect it will move elsewhere as well.

[pcprogrammer]

I know you pay these taxes everywhere, I'm not an idiot

Sounds like you are off worse in the UK. In France it is a bit better. At the moment we pay about euro 1.51 per liter for the "95 e10" type, versus euro 1.96 in the Netherlands.

About the taxes on electricity they are already there. As is payment for the network, which is the largest part of our bill. They don't want you to be energy efficient and not consume low amounts. They want to earn money, money and more money. Greed, the death toll of the planet

[Simon]

I know you pay these taxes everywhere, I'm not an idiot

Your next statement could of had me fooled......

About the taxes on electricity they are already there. As is payment for the network, which is the largest part of our bill. They don't want you to be energy efficient and not consume low amounts. They want to earn money, money and more money. Greed, the death toll of the planet

now you sound like some conspiracy theorist. i don't know how much the charge is from my network but I think it is something like 20p/day so not that much actually, as for tax fuel and energy are taxed at 5% in the UK.

They rather you would be more energy efficient actually.... if they want to make more money they just increase the price as they keep doing. When wholesale prices go up they increase prices, when they go down they don't reduce them again and put prices up anyway. But, if we were not more energy efficient they would have to spend substantial amounts of money that we would have to ultimately pay to increase the generation output and the transport network, that does not make them much money.

In the UK there is 650W available to any one person at any time. If we all used 650W each the UK grid would be fully loaded, this is why in the UK it is called the National Grid because years ago it was not national but lots of small ones. The bigger you make it the easier it is to share surplus of supply and demand and average it saving money. Because we have become more efficient we are happy paying more for what we used to get even though we actually use less and they can sell it to more people. If we are using 70% of what we used to but are paying 150% of what we used to they are also selling it to 150% more people making 225%.

[Andrew_Debbie]

Plugging in at home also costs money. Probably depends on where you live how much the difference in price per kilometer (mile for the non metric people ) will be. In the Netherlands petrol is more expensive due to an old extra tax on it. (Het kwartje van Kok, A quarter guilder added as a temporary measure to reduce consumption. Was an idea in the time of Wim Kok running the country) Here in France it is also expensive but more affordable.

Before covid,  we saved about £100 a month on fuel.   


 I would save even more if / when I switch to a smart meter and a time of day tariff.   

[Simon]

How so Andrew? Do you have a time of day that you do everything that is when prices are cheap? A smart meter definitely. I was on a wholesale linked tariff but electricity has actually become quite expensive this year. I don't know if it has been a bit colder than on average so far. So I have just switched to an economy 7 type tarrif for EV's which oddly is cheaper all round. The can't complain that much though as my solar panels generate everything I use in electricity, I am just buying back at night what I supplied during the day, but even on the government FIT scheme that is making me a profit.. As I can charge my car for 5p/kWh I don't even bother charging at stations for free with the 3 free subscriptions I have to charging networks on the lease of the car.

[Andrew_Debbie]

BTW: it is also funny to see so much nonsense about the efficiency of wireless charging. Nowadays a good wireless charging system can achieve >80% efficiency over large distances. Don't believe everything Dave says in his videos!

20% loss  is not small, espcially if demand is shifted to the late afternoon peak.  This is what would happen with in-road wireless charging.

Even at home it is a signifcant increase in expense and increase in demand.

Back of the envelope:

BEVs  get ~3.9miles per kWh  of power input.    This includes losses in the on-board charger and charging losses in the traction battery.     Of course this varies with driving style, driving conditions and the car.  I am using results I've had accross 3 different BEVs and seven years experiece.  YMMV.


12,000mi per year  @ 3.9m / kWh   =   3077kWh per year.     On my current tarriff  that is  £400  per year to run the car.       Wireless charging  would add £80 to my annual bill.    But this is trivial compared to the other problem, meeting demand.  -- We'd need to build in an extra 20% capacty just to avoid plugging in.        Not worth it.  Plugging in an EV is easy.

[Andrew_Debbie]

How so Andrew? Do you have a time of day that you do everything that is when prices are cheap? A smart meter definitely. I was on a wholesale linked tariff but electricity has actually become quite expensive this year. I don't know if it has been a bit colder than on average so far. So I have just switched to an economy 7 type tarrif for EV's which oddly is cheaper all round. The can't complain that much though as my solar panels generate everything I use in electricity, I am just buying back at night what I supplied during the day, but even on the government FIT scheme that is making me a profit.. As I can charge my car for 5p/kWh I don't even bother charging at stations for free with the 3 free subscriptions I have to charging networks on the lease of the car.

I'm not a 'not smart' tarriff at the moment.   I signed up for Ocotpus Go  (5p / kWh) ages ago -- declined a smart meter when offered due to Covid.    Didn't want anyone in the  house and  at <100 miles a month  it was not worth it.  Now that I'm back to driving 500 miles a month it is worth switching.  Next time they have installer in our area, I will get it done.   

Edit: Just booked smart meter install for August.

[Simon]

How so Andrew? Do you have a time of day that you do everything that is when prices are cheap? A smart meter definitely. I was on a wholesale linked tariff but electricity has actually become quite expensive this year. I don't know if it has been a bit colder than on average so far. So I have just switched to an economy 7 type tarrif for EV's which oddly is cheaper all round. The can't complain that much though as my solar panels generate everything I use in electricity, I am just buying back at night what I supplied during the day, but even on the government FIT scheme that is making me a profit.. As I can charge my car for 5p/kWh I don't even bother charging at stations for free with the 3 free subscriptions I have to charging networks on the lease of the car.

I'm not a 'not smart' tarriff at the moment.   I signed up for Ocotpus Go  (5p / kWh) ages ago -- declined a smart meter when offered due to Covid.    Didn't want anyone in the  house and  at <100 miles a month  it was not worth it.  Now that I'm back to driving 500 miles a month it is worth switching.  Next time they have installer in our area, I will get it done.   

Edit: Just booked smart meter install for August.

How can you be on octopus go without a smart meter? or are they estimating your readings?

[Andrew_Debbie]

How so Andrew? Do you have a time of day that you do everything that is when prices are cheap? A smart meter definitely. I was on a wholesale linked tariff but electricity has actually become quite expensive this year. I don't know if it has been a bit colder than on average so far. So I have just switched to an economy 7 type tarrif for EV's which oddly is cheaper all round. The can't complain that much though as my solar panels generate everything I use in electricity, I am just buying back at night what I supplied during the day, but even on the government FIT scheme that is making me a profit.. As I can charge my car for 5p/kWh I don't even bother charging at stations for free with the 3 free subscriptions I have to charging networks on the lease of the car.

I'm not a 'not smart' tarriff at the moment.   I signed up for Ocotpus Go  (5p / kWh) ages ago -- declined a smart meter when offered due to Covid.    Didn't want anyone in the  house and  at <100 miles a month  it was not worth it.  Now that I'm back to driving 500 miles a month it is worth switching.  Next time they have installer in our area, I will get it done.   

Edit: Just booked smart meter install for August.

How can you be on octopus go without a smart meter? or are they estimating your readings?

When you sign up for Go, Octopus put you on a tariff that does not require a smart meter.  At the same time you go in the queue to get a smart meter.    Some how I got lost in the queue and then covid happend.     So I've been on their non-EV tariff for ages.  It is about the same as the daytime rate on Go, but the standing charge is a little lower.

I just booked an install appointment.     Once the meter is in and they verify communication, I'll be put on the Go tarrif.  If everything works, that shoulld be mid-August.

[Simon]

Oh yea, Octopus are a shambles. Like all these hippy new age companies that want to do good they invariably end up in chaos and pissed off customers like me. I only stick with them because most of the time when they stuff it up I make money like when they failed to transfer in my FIT, so I was getting FIT payments from the old supplier and they were paying me the export too as they set me up for export but failed to take actual ownership of my account.

[Ben321]

Simple fact is electric vehicles will not be drop-in replacements for gas-powered cars for quite a few more decades. As of right now, electric cars have the sole purpose of being machines designed to help stop global warming, NOT being machines intended to have the same level of convenience as gas-powered cars. Until that is changed at some unknown point in the future (a point where EVs give the same or better performance/convenience as you woult get from a gas-powered car), the VAST MAJORITY of people will continue to buy and drive gas-powered cars, because even though environmentalism is a trendy kind of cause to fight for, when it comes down to it, the average citizen expects a certain level of convenience and performance from their car, and they will NOT switch to EVs untill EVs become advanced enough in their battery life and charging tech that the EVs themselves equal or surpass the level of convenience and performance found in gas-powered cars. While some EVs do have acceleration that reaches or exceeds the acceleration in similar gas-powered cars, they still suffer from needing to be recharged more often (in terms of miles per recharge or refill) than gas-powered cars, and also suffer from the fact that current EV battery technology takes far longer for a recharge than a gas-powered car would require for an equivalent amount of refill in the tank. And the price is also a barrier. I think the CHEAPEST EVs on the market today are about $45000, while the average middle class working class people will probably not spend over $30000 for a car (preventing the vast majority of Americans from buying an EV, based on their personal budget alone). I know for a fact, that my parents had like 4 cars before their current one, and the current one is the ONLY one they ever bought that cost over $30000 (but still less than $40000). Previous cars of theirs have ALL been less than $30000.

[PlainName]

current EV battery technology takes far longer for a recharge than a gas-powered car would require for an equivalent amount of refill in the tank

I am coming round to the idea that this might not be the show-stopper it used to be. Depends on range - if it would cover a week's mileage, for instance, then remembering to plug it in over the weekend would be OK. It would also need a change of laziness, in that currently people tend to run the tank empty and figure they'll fill it sometime when they're out in the next couple of trips. Instead, thinking to top up the batteries before they fall below the maximum trip distance would be better.

As an example, suppose you commute 25 miles each way. That's 250 miles a week, which is just about doable with current motors. You should be able to start with full batteries on the Monday, and just manage to get home on Friday. You could put it on charge any convenient evening to make sure it lasts.

That wouldn't be ideal for all purposes, of course, but horses for courses. Personally, having gone nowhere I couldn't walk most of the time during the pandemic my commuting fuel use is zero. Shopping is very low indeed (I walk that too, unless there will be bulky stuff to carry. An electric motor wouldn't even need charging every month, I reckon, so would easily cover that usage.

Where I do use fuel, I am going to be doing 100-200 miles in one go and cannot stop to top up. However, I might need to do that a couple of times in quick sequence, and with petrol I can drop into a garage between trips and be topped out in minutes. With electric I would need a range of perhaps 5-600 miles to ensure similar usability. Almost doable.

But, against that, there are the unforeseen emergencies and similar. Too bad if your motor is flat and on charge and your partner just sliced their leg open with a chainsaw.

I think the solution would be to have electric with minimal hybrid ability, which normally wouldn't be used but in desperation could keep the show on the road. They could sell the base car without, but have a socket or something that would allow the optional genset to plug in (and, of course, have it designed to be part of the car rather than sit on the floor outside).