Eagle 9 - any thoughts?

[Karel]

Your second post contains a dead link.

Can't do anything about that. Shortly after Autodesk released V8, the admin of eaglecentral.ca
(a kind of HTTP gateway to the Eagle NNTP servers) threw in the towel.

[rachaelp]

Autodesk is willing to throw its users under the bus, with no warning and even after promising otherwise, if it suits their purposes. This very real risk is enough to make people think twice about investing their time in the Eagle ecosystem (in addition to Autodesk's money grubbing license policies).

In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think. My v7 license still works just fine and people have currently had 15 months post subscription change to find an alternative if they don't want to continue with EAGLE.

The pricing is not the issue (though it's more expensive for someone who makes a PCB every month). The part you're missing is that some of us prefer not to have our tools stop working on the day Autodesk decides Eagle isn't worth it anymore.

Technically they won't stop working the day Autodesk decides EAGLE isn't worth it anymore. As of v9 the license check period has been upped to 30 days so for most people who are online all the time that would give 30 days of their current license entitlement assuming Autodesk flicked the switch on the license server at the very instant they decided to end it all, then it would revert to the freeware restrictions, which is full view, export to CAM etc. Also, EAGLE is a pretty open format which most tools can import without too much trouble so you're highly unlikely to be totally stuck if the worst were to happen.

But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months. If you don't like it, don't use EAGLE. Simple. Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?

Before Autodesk took over, EAGLE was going nowhere. There were no new features of any note and no sign of any of the features people were asking for being developed as Cadsoft didn't have the resources to do so. Now that's all changed and it would be nice to be able to have sensible discussions about what's new and the direction things are going with the addition of all the new stuff.

Best Regards,

Rachael

[VEGETA]

But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months.

Yes, because this is the big major problem. Now one says that eagle is bad altogether or so, its features are nice for everyone and no argument about that. The killer is the subscription model itself. This will always be the center of argument because it is the reason people left eagle in the first place. These people never left it because they realized it is stupid after using it for years. You seem to say that people should focus on discussing eagle features but I am telling you they don't question them in the first place.

In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think.

Yes but you are locked in a very old version for ever. This won't be good for companies IMHO... If so, then using kicad is a better choice. At least it gets updated and gets new features.

So yes, they threw you under the bus.

Before Autodesk took over, EAGLE was going nowhere. There were no new features of any note and no sign of any of the features people were asking for being developed as Cadsoft didn't have the resources to do so.

Correct. However, they have wasted it by changing how people have been using it for years. They changed the reason why maker community made eagle the standard.

[Karel]

In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think. My v7 license still works just fine and people have currently had 15 months post subscription change to find an alternative if they don't want to continue with EAGLE.

There are two problems with that. First, the new subscrition does not work with older versions. Before V8, when you bought a license, it was valid also for older versions.

Second problem: The lack of a grace period blocked us from buying another license for V7. So, if we want to hire another engineer, we are screwed.

[rachaelp]

But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months.

Yes, because this is the big major problem. Now one says that eagle is bad altogether or so, its features are nice for everyone and no argument about that. The killer is the subscription model itself. This will always be the center of argument because it is the reason people left eagle in the first place. These people never left it because they realized it is stupid after using it for years. You seem to say that people should focus on discussing eagle features but I am telling you they don't question them in the first place.

Yes I am. If the thread title was all about licensing then fine, jump in and have another rant. My point is, there are lots of new features coming to EAGLE now, far more than CADSoft added in the previous decade. We should be able to discuss these without every single new EAGLE thread being ruined by the same old anti Autodesk, anti subscription ranting. It doesn't matter whether people are questioning EAGLE's features or not. Are you saying because nobody questions Altium Designers features that there should never be any discussions on that either? I'm pretty sure I saw a number of threads discussing new features when AD18 was released. You know, if that's the case, we may as well not have these forums relating to the different tools as having discussions about them seems to be somehow against protocol?

[ebastler]

If the thread title was all about licensing then fine, jump in and have another rant.

Well, the thread title was asking for "any thoughts", and some people seem to have a very limited repertoire of thoughts on the topic of Eagle...

I am also annoyed by these recurring "contributions". I don't like software subscriptions, and am in fact still using Eagle V7 (because it's good enough for the occasional hobby projects I do). But it seems that all has been said about Eagle's change to subscriptions. Over the past 9 months I certainly have not learned anything new from the posts of the usual suspects on this matter. Too bad the forum software does not allow me to block certain users in certain sub-forums only...

[Fred27]

I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.

[Mr. Scram]

Well, the thread title was asking for "any thoughts", and some people seem to have a very limited repertoire of thoughts on the topic of Eagle...

I am also annoyed by these recurring "contributions". I don't like software subscriptions, and am in fact still using Eagle V7 (because it's good enough for the occasional hobby projects I do). But it seems that all has been said about Eagle's change to subscriptions. Over the past 9 months I certainly have not learned anything new from the posts of the usual suspects on this matter. Too bad the forum software does not allow me to block certain users in certain sub-forums only...

It seems inevitable that people bring forth their opinions when the statement is made that people respond the the subscription model on an emotional basis. Poke the monkey and get a response.

[ReneK]

Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?

Even Matt opens his V9 announcement with talking about subscription, so this seems to be the feature of interest.

[rachaelp]

Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?

Even Matt opens his V9 announcement with talking about subscription, so this seems to be the feature of interest.

Trying in this way to come up with justifications for the continued trolling of every EAGLE thread is quite sad. You know full well the subscription isn't the feature of interest for the v9 release that was the intention of this thread.

[Karel]

I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.

Ok, let's have a look at this feature (for starters):

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-0-0-increased-frequency-of-crashes/td-p/7950054

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/8-9-0-crashing-consistently/td-p/7951133

Don't say this is an isolated incident. Their forum is full of crash reports or errors with almost every version.

[rachaelp]

I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.

Ok, let's have a look at this feature (for starters):

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-0-0-increased-frequency-of-crashes/td-p/7950054

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/8-9-0-crashing-consistently/td-p/7951133

Don't say this is an isolated incident. Their forum is full of crash reports or errors with almost every version.

Yep this is a valid discussion topic 

So, what you find is that there are bugs which tend to happen most when a feature release happens and then they get eliminated over the next few minor point releases which are always bug fix only (since 8.5) and a lot of the initial bugs will get eliminated in these point releases.

For the crashes, it looks like its a lot but it's probably a very small percentage of the users. People who don't have crashes tend not to post on a forum to say that it's not crashing

Anyway, it tends to be very system specific often, and related to graphics drivers. Quite often I see these reports and they are people with HP/Dell boxes with out of date drivers. Usually they've relied on Windows update to tell them if they need a driver update or the update utility provided by the box manufacturer. Often pointing them at the NVidia / AMD websites for the latest drivers fixes the issues.

Now, this might not be the cause for the two cases you quote above, but I would imagine the developers are looking at those and getting test cases and working on getting fixes in place.

So, given the vast array of different hardware / OS / driver platforms that EAGLE can run on, and given the 25 year (??) legacy codebase, do you seriously expect there to be absolutely no bugs when new features are being added? Of course they could always revert to the CADSoft feature addition rate but then I don't think people would like this either

[Karel]

So, now you are the one here to do damage control instead of Jorge?

[macegr]

It's hard to criticize a company when all your work is currently held hostage by their continued desire to keep the project active. You'll subconsciously cringe at any negative attitude towards them, because you know deep down that you are at risk. You may even consider it a "favor" they are doing you, by giving you your tools back every month, and perhaps will start apologizing for their problems. This is the exact reason why stockholders love subscriptions, it's basic psychology. Not only do you get a constant stream of revenue, but customers develop a hostage bond and instinctively recoil from biting the hand that "feeds" them, and they also forget how much the product actually costs and only value the software quality against the monthly price...so you don't have to work as hard to make sure the software is of professional quality.

Apologizing for someone else's mistakes and trying to hush down criticism is what you do when you're in an abusive relationship.

[rachaelp]

So, now you are the one here to do damage control instead of Jorge?

No, for two reasons:

1) I'm just an EAGLE user, but I use EAGLE a lot and, I do spend a lot of time on the Autodesk EAGLE forum trying to help people where I can and I have seen an awful lot of what is going on.

2) There is no damage control to be done. EAGLE is in a better place feature development wise than its ever been and I suspect the improvements will continue. Stability was a bit shady in the early v8 days but it is slowly coming back now and it seems there are an awful lot of people who are more than happy with how things are now under Autodesk.

Are there issues still? Yes, of course there are. I don't necessarily agree with the direction they've taken on a few things, but in general, from 8.3 onwards the added features have all been pretty worthwhile.

[macegr]

Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

Autodesk Eagle: Have you ever seen show Lost? There was a button they had to push every 108 minutes or else terrible things would happen.

[rachaelp]

It's hard to criticize a company when all your work is currently held hostage by their continued desire to keep the project active.

Yeah this is one of the most ill informed and ignorant comments so far....

My data isn't held hostage. If the license servers went away today I'd have 30 days to continue with the current premium entitlement and then it would revert to the free limits. I'd still be able to open everything and export back to v7 format so I could still open all my data in v7. Now, if I wasn't fortunate enough to have a v7 license to fall back on, well EAGLE is a very open file format and as many people on here like to point out that almost every other ECAD tool has very good importers for EAGLE data. So where is the risk exactly? I can continue with EAGLE v9 and fall back to v7 if my subscription came to an end or migrate easily elsewhere if that's what I wished to do.

[rachaelp]

Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.

[macegr]

I have my business's next few months planned out; scrambling to find a replacement for a core tool isn't on the schedule. My schedule, for my business, that I would like to control at all times wherever possible.

Handwaving "oh, the files still exist and the format is documented" is pointless right now because none of the existing tools can smoothly import Eagle files and continue to work on them with no interruption in productivity. I like my backup plans to be based in reality, not stuff that requires 10 people to cram a year's worth of software development into a single month.

[macegr]

Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.

Strange that the frustration you mention never rose to the level that I noticed it during that period, while the frustration from users right now is enough for you to call it "trolling." Did you apologize for Cadsoft's software bugs during that period?

[rachaelp]

Handwaving "oh, the files still exist and the format is documented" is pointless right now because none of the existing tools can smoothly import Eagle files and continue to work on them with no interruption in productivity. I like my backup plans to be based in reality, not stuff that requires 10 people to cram a year's worth of software development into a single month.

So all the arguments for migrating away from EAGLE with people saying migrating to KiCAD was simple and pain free were all lies then?

As I said, v7 is available to me anyway so it's pain free to go back to that. And my scenario above was based on the worst case scenario of the license servers disappearing over night which in reality is extremely unlikely.

For me and plenty of others EAGLE is still a perfectly good option, if it's not for you, fine, do what you need for your business.

[rachaelp]

Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.

Strange that the frustration you mention never rose to the level that I noticed it during that period, while the frustration from users right now is enough for you to call it "trolling." Did you apologize for Cadsoft's software bugs during that period?

So you don't remember all the complaints about not having a proper reverse board view that wasn't using the mirror command? I do and EAGLE has this now.

You don't recall all the people asking for Push & Shove on a regular basis? I do and EAGLE has this now too.

You don't recall all the people complaining about LTSPice integration not working properly and not being available on all platforms? I do, and guess what? EAGLE has ngspice fully integrated right into the schematic editor now.

Do you remember people complaining that the CAM wouldn't create directories if they didn't exist? I do, and guess what? The new CAM processor (albeit it does have UI issues) will now create directories. It's a small thing I know, but hey, it's a request they listened to and implemented.

I could continue but I'm sure you get the point.

[macegr]

I would agree that anyone saying it's easy to migrate from Eagle to KiCAD is not being truthful. It's something I'm still working on, partly on hold right now due to using Altium for some contract work. I think you're missing the point though; we're frustrated entirely BECAUSE it's so hard to move to another CAD program. A major change in licensing and in stability was suddenly implemented on a platform that many people have been integrating into their workflow for 20 years...with no warning. Bugfix support for Eagle 7 ended instantly, if an operating system change breaks it, they will not fix it...and they were still selling Eagle 7 weeks before changing the license.

If I'm still not fully migrated to a new platform after a year, then two weeks (now four weeks) was never enough time.

[rachaelp]

I would agree that anyone saying it's easy to migrate from Eagle to KiCAD is not being truthful. It's something I'm still working on, partly on hold right now due to using Altium for some contract work. I think you're missing the point though; we're frustrated entirely BECAUSE it's so hard to move to another CAD program.

I get that a lot of people are frustrated by the change. But this all happened 15 months ago and I'm sorry but it's not an excuse to continually trash every single EAGLE related thread and effectively prevent people having a civilized discussion about other EAGLE features that may be of interest to them. Doing this all the time on every thread is tedious and frankly very rude.

[macegr]

15 months is a very short time compared to how long I have been using Eagle, so it's still fresh for me.

It's also very rude to lie about this sort of controversy appearing on "every single Eagle" thread, you can easily look at other recent threads and see people discussing features with no one popping in to mention the subscription complaint.

I'll discuss the topic if it comes up. That's not "all the time" and on "every thread" so reel that back in.