Author Topic: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?  (Read 19701 times)

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Offline timgiles

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Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« on: April 20, 2018, 07:06:53 am »
Hi all,

Not had a chance to download and update my Eagle to version 9 - anyone tried the new features?

Regards Timothy
 

Offline Aztlanpz

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 11:08:17 am »
I download it but have not used it.
 

Offline Feynman

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 06:50:13 pm »
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-version-9-is-here-nothing-short-of-awesome/td-p/7940181

A little too much "amazing", "cool" and "awesome" for my bullshit radar :D
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 07:06:30 pm »
I am scheduled to try it out next week.

Most interested in the differential routing claims. The Eagle team is clearly putting in a lot of effort. Perhaps it will soon cross over into professional system.
I am already LOVING the ability to pass the data back and forth with Fusion360. For that reason, I bailed on Solidworks after 20+ years.

They are going in a good direction.
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Online hendorog

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 07:59:23 pm »
The new features, and particularly quickroute and the design manager, are really good useful additions.

Not sure if I'll ever use Eagle again though, I might miss it a bit more now.
 

Offline JacquesBBB

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 08:42:38 am »
The improvements and new features of Eagle over the past year are impressive compared to the very slow evolution before Autodesk took over.

I  have been steadily using Eagle despite its shortcomings. I will certainly continue with the new version and wonder what will be the evolution  in the coming year.

In the  version 9.  the new routing  options are particularly nice.

I should say nevertheless that I am using only the free version, as I am not  restrained with the limited area for my hobby boards. 
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 11:21:12 am »
Do i read this right ? Are they seriosly asking the customers for a subscription ?  :wtf:
 

Offline bgm

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 12:16:13 pm »
Do i read this right ? Are they seriosly asking the customers for a subscription ?  :wtf:

Yes they are, and this is not new - they did it when they transitioned from 7.x to 8.x.  I had plenty to say when they did it then.  No matter how good it may become, the very *method* of their subscription enforcement now makes it an unworkable product for what I personally do. 

Dave did a video on this at the time. 
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Offline VEGETA

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 12:51:44 pm »
Do i read this right ? Are they seriosly asking the customers for a subscription ?  :wtf:

Yes they are, and this is not new - they did it when they transitioned from 7.x to 8.x.  I had plenty to say when they did it then.  No matter how good it may become, the very *method* of their subscription enforcement now makes it an unworkable product for what I personally do. 

Dave did a video on this at the time.


This is more affirmation that the subscription method is killing the product, everyone seems to get it except Autodesk! I mean, don't they notice the few people who buy it vs what they expected?!

It seems like a money laundry product  :-DD
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 03:54:37 pm »
My Eagle computer has been disconnected from the internet for quite a while. Still works fine. All my files are local, but not on the workstation.

The subscription concept is one of the bigger reasons I am still using Eagle. I was able to bundle Fusion360 and Eagle to replace Solidworks, Mastercam, and an older version of Eagle.

I was gearing up to finance a big number and still have huge annual maintenance costs out of pocket. My guess is that Autodesk is gaining more ground than they are losing. Some have totally legitimate reasons for not doing subscription, some are just emotional.

Me..... I like the cash flow improvement and I like Fusion360 better than Solidworks and Mastercam.

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 03:57:23 pm »
I am scheduled to try it out next week.

Most interested in the differential routing claims. The Eagle team is clearly putting in a lot of effort. Perhaps it will soon cross over into professional system.
I am already LOVING the ability to pass the data back and forth with Fusion360. For that reason, I bailed on Solidworks after 20+ years.

They are going in a good direction.
Note that Solidworks now also offers integration with what basically is CS.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 04:28:34 pm »
Interesting for sure. A little late for me, but they clearly see the need.

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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 04:34:28 pm »
Do i read this right ? Are they seriosly asking the customers for a subscription ?  :wtf:

Yes, and they flat out lied about their intent. Stating there were no plans to go subscription mere weeks before doing exactly that. They're either liars or grossly incompetent, who can trust them?
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 05:04:26 pm »
I knew that eagle went on subscription. I was just suprised that it looks like(at least it looks to me) they are begging for subscribers.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 05:09:09 pm »
"We extended the 14-day offline limit to 30 days to ensure you aren’t stuck in a dark corner of the globe, cursing the EAGLE development team.  :)"

Getting the point without getting it.
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 05:12:20 pm »
The improvements and new features of Eagle over the past year are impressive compared to the very slow evolution before Autodesk took over.
Either Cadsoft had a really small team, or Autodesk is releasing minimum viable code.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 05:19:13 pm »
The improvements and new features of Eagle over the past year are impressive compared to the very slow evolution before Autodesk took over.

Also, bugs, instabilities and incompatibilities have skyrocketed since V8. Guess that's the price you pay for fast development.
They now also broke their ULP's (User Language Programming), a very powerful scripting language using C syntax.
But hey, they promised that they will replace it with something "better" in the future...

Even if they should drop the subcription only option, I'm not sure if want to "upgrade" after seeing all the troubles on their forum.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:54:14 pm by Karel »
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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 07:18:31 pm »
Having worked in software, I can say that's the direction much of the industry has gone, much to my dismay. Ship the minimum viable product, add features and fix all the bugs "later", shifting the QA task over to the customer. Everything is in a constant state of flux, changes go live with minimal testing, new bugs are introduced on a constant basis, as a customer it sucks.

Of course I can see why the industry has gone this directly, with software and hardware having reached a plateau software companies were fast running out of ways to entice people into upgrading to the latest version. When a person can not too unreasonably upgrade PCs and software on a 10 year cycle now rather than the 1-2 year cycle of the past it's easy to see why software companies have been in a panic trying to find a way to keep extracting money from customers. With that of course they have to find a way to spin it such that it can be portrayed as an advantage to the customer. FUD about security and overly hyped new features nobody asked for abound.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 08:06:15 pm »
They now also broke their ULP's (User Language Programming), a very powerful scripting language using C syntax.

What do you mean broke their ULP's? I write ULP's for various things all the time and nothing seems broken to me??

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2018, 09:26:28 pm »
They now also broke their ULP's (User Language Programming), a very powerful scripting language using C syntax.

What do you mean broke their ULP's? I write ULP's for various things all the time and nothing seems broken to me??

Best Regards,

Rachael

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/some-custom-ulps-do-not-work-anymore-after-installing-version-8/td-p/7626803

It seems to be resolved for now.

Can't imagine the fun if you get hit with something like that and you need to meet a deadline....

Don't get me wrong, most software show bugs now and then, also Eagle V7.
But the number of weird bugs since V8 is quiet shocking. It's like they didn't even bother to test it.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 09:57:31 pm »
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/some-custom-ulps-do-not-work-anymore-after-installing-version-8/td-p/7626803

It seems to be resolved for now.

Can't imagine the fun if you get hit with something like that and you need to meet a deadline....

Don't get me wrong, most software show bugs now and then, also Eagle V7.
But the number of weird bugs since V8 is quiet shocking. It's like they didn't even bother to test it.

The 'technical debt' in the EAGLE code base has to be truly staggering.  Rest assured, there is a reason why CadSoft wasn't implementing these fancy new features at a pace that their users were happy with.  They were probably scared to touch the code in question, likely with some justification.  Been there/done that, unfortunately. :(
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 10:06:50 pm »
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/some-custom-ulps-do-not-work-anymore-after-installing-version-8/td-p/7626803

Yeah that was ages ago and it wasn’t ULP broken it was passing the part involved in a right click context menu custom entry to ULP as a group so you could access it with ingroup(). It was a minor issue which they fixed almost immediately.

How about looking instead at all the positive things they’ve done? Fusion360 integration, SPICE built right in to the schematic editor, Live DRC, Push and Shove, Manufacturing preview, in v9 the design manager makes a huge difference, the new rip up modes in the rip tool make it much more powerful, in the schematic the new bus functionality and the component breakout features make working with busses much more slick. I had a ULP previously to do proper bus management but the new built in feature does away with that. There’s an awful lot of really positive things happening to EAGLE if you take the time to look. Yes there are bugs, and yes there have been stability issues but they tend to fix most of them quite quickly when they are found in the minor number point releases which are bug fix only releases.

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline ReneK

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 10:57:55 pm »
How about looking instead at all the positive things they’ve done?
The one negative thing they've done (subscription) paired with the lack of software-stability after telling lies has so much weight, that this is not an option.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2018, 11:03:25 pm »

Also, bugs, instabilities and incompatibilities have skyrocketed since V8. Guess that's the price you pay for fast development.
They now also broke their ULP's (User Language Programming), a very powerful scripting language using C syntax.


I have not run into any serious bugs and the ULP's work just fine.
Are you willing to be specific or just spreading rumors?

How about looking instead at all the positive things they’ve done?
The one negative thing they've done (subscription) paired with the lack of software-stability after telling lies has so much weight, that this is not an option.

What stability issues are you referring to? I have not had any stability issues at all. Keep in mind, I am a user that is quite critical of Eagle. I am, however, giving them some credit for pushing the system in a positive direction overall.

As for the subscription model - I have not heard many arguments that I interpret as reasonable. I can see it being a problem in some cases for sure, but the loudest and most critical seem to be arguing from a position of emotions.
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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 01:00:09 am »
I don't rent software, period, there are other arguments but this is the only one I need. Since I'm the potential customer I'm the one who gets to call those shots, otherwise I go elsewhere, which is what I've done.
 
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Offline VEGETA

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 05:22:14 am »
I don't rent software, period, there are other arguments but this is the only one I need. Since I'm the potential customer I'm the one who gets to call those shots, otherwise I go elsewhere, which is what I've done.

Yes, especially that with the price you pay for rent you could own a better or a similar product.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2018, 05:39:35 am »
I don't rent software, period, there are other arguments but this is the only one I need. Since I'm the potential customer I'm the one who gets to call those shots, otherwise I go elsewhere, which is what I've done.

I did not have $10k for Altium, $6k for Solidworks, and $13k for Mastercam which is about what they all wanted.

I had been off maintenance with Solidworks for a few years and they wanted to charge me for each year to get back up to date which is pretty much a new full license. Altium would have been an all-new purchase - so pretty close to full rate. Mastercam may have cut me a break since I already own an out of date license.

Let's say the best case scenario would be about $22,000 to get all three. Then about $4,300/year for maintenance.
Or I can 'rent' Eagle and Fusion360 for $650/year. After 10 years, that would be $6,500. The same 10 years with Altium, Solidworks, and Mastercam would be $65,000.

I will 'rent' and be happy about it.
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Online hendorog

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2018, 06:29:36 am »
I don't rent software, period, there are other arguments but this is the only one I need. Since I'm the potential customer I'm the one who gets to call those shots, otherwise I go elsewhere, which is what I've done.

I did not have $10k for Altium, $6k for Solidworks, and $13k for Mastercam which is about what they all wanted.

I had been off maintenance with Solidworks for a few years and they wanted to charge me for each year to get back up to date which is pretty much a new full license. Altium would have been an all-new purchase - so pretty close to full rate. Mastercam may have cut me a break since I already own an out of date license.

Let's say the best case scenario would be about $22,000 to get all three. Then about $4,300/year for maintenance.
Or I can 'rent' Eagle and Fusion360 for $650/year. After 10 years, that would be $6,500. The same 10 years with Altium, Solidworks, and Mastercam would be $65,000.

I will 'rent' and be happy about it.

Exactly, it can make a lot of sense. I would love to be able to rent Keysight Genesys/NI AWR and the full version of Sonnet software.

Cadsoft pissed me off when I paid the list price for Eagle - despite using Eagle I hadn't noticed the splash screen advert offering a 30% discount. I saw that advert seconds after clicking the payment through, but they ignored my emails asking to cancel the order, and/or for the discount to be applied. That lost them a customer immediately.



 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2018, 06:29:56 am »
How about looking instead at all the positive things they’ve done?
The one negative thing they've done (subscription) paired with the lack of software-stability after telling lies has so much weight, that this is not an option.

Exactly this.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2018, 06:33:26 am »
And this:
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2018, 06:57:27 am »
What stability issues are you referring to? I have not had any stability issues at all. Keep in mind, I am a user that is quite critical of Eagle. I am, however, giving them some credit for pushing the system in a positive direction overall.

As for the subscription model - I have not heard many arguments that I interpret as reasonable. I can see it being a problem in some cases for sure, but the loudest and most critical seem to be arguing from a position of emotions.
It makes perfect business sense to limit the amount of companies your company depends on to such a degree. You could wake up tomorrow with all your IP tied to a program that will only work for another month. If you buy software, you get to at least use it as long as you want. That's not emotional at all. Running a business is all about avoiding risks and taking them where they pay. Adding unneccessary risks without a considerable reward isn't making sense, though everyone will need to decide for himself at what point the money is worth it.

Let's also not forget that this partner has already proven itself to be volatile very recently.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:01:05 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2018, 06:58:43 am »
I have not seen any of those errors on my ancient Win7 machine or my newer Win10 system.



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Online Jeroen3

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2018, 08:34:20 am »
And here I am, routing a board with version 7.1.0 on Windows 7 (64 bit) for the last two weeks. A few days ago I had my first spontaneous crash, ever. It just hanged and quit. First time in years.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2018, 11:10:05 am »
How about looking instead at all the positive things they’ve done?
The one negative thing they've done (subscription) paired with the lack of software-stability after telling lies has so much weight, that this is not an option.

Exactly this.

If you really think Matt deliberately lied then there's little more that can be said here. Of course it's far more likely he said what he did, believing it to be true and then circumstances changed, Audodesk corporate policy became a factor, etc and he had no choice but to go to a subscription. It would make no sense for him to knowingly lie about it because he'd also know it would come back to bite him.

I'd agree the subscription would be a negative if Autodesk had continued developing EAGLE at the same pace as CadSoft but that's not the case. They've put and continue to put a lot of effort into making EAGLE have the features users have been complaining were missing for years. Yes there have been issues, and the stability did suffer a lot early on but it's getting a lot better again now.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 02:56:49 pm by rachaelp »
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2018, 12:44:13 pm »
To me the switch of license options without prior announcement and without a grace period for existing
customers is highly unprofessional. As Autodesk is no small company where such a mistake can be the
responsibility of a single employee, I can only conclude that this was intentional to force customers into
the new model. Again, this is highly unprofessional and shows that they either have no confidence in the
future product development, or that they intentionally accepted to disturb their customers' business for
short term sales.

A semiconductor vendor that does this would be out of busyness soon, considering the damage this situation
causes for the clients which become unable to support/continue their products.

Considering the importance of ECAD software for product support, I see no reason why an ECAD vendor should
be judged by different standards.

It is ironic that Autodesk offers solutions for product lifecycle management, but is unable to implement
even the simplest PLM measures for a newly acquired software product. Failing to see that changing the
license terms is for many customers no different than discontinuing the product is unacceptable for a
software vendor specialized in professional software.

Consequently we have blacklisted Autodesk as we would blacklist a semiconductor vendor that fails us in such
a critical way. I can only encourage everyone to think carefully whether to build their busyness on a vendor
that cannot keep promises made six months ago, cannot communicated important changes in advance and does not
care at all about the fallout this causes for their existing customers.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2018, 06:08:49 pm »

If you really think Matt deliberately lied then there's little more that can be said here. Of course it's far more likely he said what he did, believing it to be true and then circumstances changed, Audodesk corporate policy became a factor, etc and he had no choice but to go to a subscription. It would make no sense for him to knowingly lie about it because he'd also know it would come back to bite him.

Bullshit. They said it wouldn't go subscription only weeks before taking it subscription, no large company makes major decisions like that on a whim, they lied. Note I'm not saying that Matt personally lied, he may well have been repeating what management above him said, but it is reflected on the company overall.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2018, 07:25:28 pm »
And here I am, routing a board with version 7.1.0 on Windows 7 (64 bit) for the last two weeks. A few days ago I had my first spontaneous crash, ever. It just hanged and quit. First time in years.

I've seen it crash once, maybe as many as 2-3 times, in over 10 years of use.  Really impressive, and very hard to maintain a record like that while you're adding new features to an older product.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2018, 07:27:07 pm »

If you really think Matt deliberately lied then there's little more that can be said here. Of course it's far more likely he said what he did, believing it to be true and then circumstances changed, Audodesk corporate policy became a factor, etc and he had no choice but to go to a subscription. It would make no sense for him to knowingly lie about it because he'd also know it would come back to bite him.

Bullshit. They said it wouldn't go subscription only weeks before taking it subscription, no large company makes major decisions like that on a whim, they lied. Note I'm not saying that Matt personally lied, he may well have been repeating what management above him said, but it is reflected on the company overall.

It wasn't weeks it was at least 6 months, maybe longer. That statement was made by Matt shortly after the Autodesk purchase of Cadsoft was announced, the subscription came along when v8 was announced in January last year. Don't rewrite the timeline.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2018, 07:47:47 pm »
It wasn't weeks it was at least 6 months, maybe longer. That statement was made by Matt shortly after the Autodesk purchase of Cadsoft was announced, the subscription came along when v8 was announced in January last year. Don't rewrite the timeline.

Actually, if you want to look at the timeline, the first elements of the subscription strategy came along much earlier than that, when CadSoft themselves tried to add MAC-based flexlm licensing at the introduction of V7.   You may recall how that was received on the NNTP support group, and how quickly it was walked back.

At the time, CadSoft didn't have enough money in the bank to stick to their guns and wait for the customer revolt to die down.  But Autodesk obviously does.  Bully for them, I guess.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2018, 07:48:47 pm »
It wasn't weeks it was at least 6 months, maybe longer. That statement was made by Matt shortly after the Autodesk purchase of Cadsoft was announced, the subscription came along when v8 was announced in January last year. Don't rewrite the timeline.

Actually, if you want to look at the timeline, the first elements of the subscription strategy came along much earlier than that, when CadSoft themselves tried to force an online requirement at the introduction of V7.   You may recall how that was received on the NNTP support group, and how quickly it was walked back.

Sorry mate, you are making a fool of yourself. Your correct answer to Rachael's post is: "Oops, sorry, you are right. I was mistaken about the timeline."
 

Online Bud

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2018, 08:19:53 pm »
I do remember it happened fast. 6 months is nothing if you ever happened to work in a big company.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2018, 08:25:26 pm »
1. I don't really care much about confusion over the subscription.

2. I seriously doubt that the guy that said they were not going that direction had any idea the Autodesk was about to take over the hopes, dreams, and culture of the CadSoft world. During an acquisition - it often feels like it is going to be one big happy family. Later, they realize it is a cold dictatorship and their opinons are squashed like little insects.

I have built/sold two businesses and worked for 2 others that were sold. It is a confusing mess.

3. Again, this argument/discussion is largely based on emotions.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2018, 02:39:53 am »
"The guy that said it" happens to be the person who leads the entire Eagle project at Autodesk.

Honestly we're doing him a favor by ignoring the old adage, and chalking this up to malice rather than incompetence.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 02:42:26 am by macegr »
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2018, 03:15:52 am »
I could swear Dave mentioned a much shorter timeline in his video about the matter but it's been quite a while now since I saw that. Perhaps I'm remembering wrong, although I do agree that 6 months is still a short enough time that somebody there had to know what the plan was.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2018, 06:12:45 am »
It was a handful of months, yes. And the statement was made by the one person privy to all internal roadmap discussions for the Autodesk Eagle project, and responsible for planning and assigning work to developers. If someone walked in and force-fed him his own words and enforced their roadmap over his, that must have been one hell of a humbling, ego-damaging moment. Usually people quit the company at that point in order to scrape together a few shreds of dignity.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2018, 06:34:19 am »
It was a handful of months, yes.

Can we please stop splitting hairs about the timeline? It was six months, as stated by rachaelp. The often-referred-to statement "it's not going subscription" dates from July 6, 2016 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/100/, reply #124), and they moved to a subscription model in January 2017 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-965-the-(autodesk)-eagle-has-crashed/).

Does this make it likely that Autodesk honestly didn't plan the transition to a subscription model in July 2016? I don't know. In my experience, company acquisitions are preceded by building a solid business case, which normally has a longer half-life than six months. On the other hand, Autodesk's annual budget and revenue planning probably happened at some point between those two dates, and may indeed have resulted in a change of tack. We'll never know for sure until Matt writes his memoirs...
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2018, 06:36:56 am »
@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. :) At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap.
Thought about it.  Decided against it.  Can I say that we will never in the life of any product
do that?  No, of course not.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2018, 06:37:27 am »
Autodesk is full subscription going forward and this position is
non-negotiable. I know that for a lot of you this is not good news, but
there's not much that can be done about it.

I'm truly sorry guys.
Jorge Garcia

http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52901/168331/#msg_168331
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2018, 06:38:46 am »
Autodesk is willing to throw its users under the bus, with no warning and even after promising otherwise, if it suits their purposes. This very real risk is enough to make people think twice about investing their time in the Eagle ecosystem (in addition to Autodesk's money grubbing license policies).

The pricing is not the issue (though it's more expensive for someone who makes a PCB every month). The part you're missing is that some of us prefer not to have our tools stop working on the day Autodesk decides Eagle isn't worth it anymore.
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Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2018, 06:41:24 am »
@Karel -- yes, your first post links to reply #124 which I referred to. The eaglecentral link in your next post seems dead, and hence not helpful for dating the statement.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2018, 06:48:14 am »
Your second post contains a dead link.

Can't do anything about that. Shortly after Autodesk released V8, the admin of eaglecentral.ca
(a kind of HTTP gateway to the Eagle NNTP servers) threw in the towel.

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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2018, 07:00:28 am »
Autodesk is willing to throw its users under the bus, with no warning and even after promising otherwise, if it suits their purposes. This very real risk is enough to make people think twice about investing their time in the Eagle ecosystem (in addition to Autodesk's money grubbing license policies).

In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think. My v7 license still works just fine and people have currently had 15 months post subscription change to find an alternative if they don't want to continue with EAGLE.

The pricing is not the issue (though it's more expensive for someone who makes a PCB every month). The part you're missing is that some of us prefer not to have our tools stop working on the day Autodesk decides Eagle isn't worth it anymore.

Technically they won't stop working the day Autodesk decides EAGLE isn't worth it anymore. As of v9 the license check period has been upped to 30 days so for most people who are online all the time that would give 30 days of their current license entitlement assuming Autodesk flicked the switch on the license server at the very instant they decided to end it all, then it would revert to the freeware restrictions, which is full view, export to CAM etc. Also, EAGLE is a pretty open format which most tools can import without too much trouble so you're highly unlikely to be totally stuck if the worst were to happen.

But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months. If you don't like it, don't use EAGLE. Simple. Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?

Before Autodesk took over, EAGLE was going nowhere. There were no new features of any note and no sign of any of the features people were asking for being developed as Cadsoft didn't have the resources to do so. Now that's all changed and it would be nice to be able to have sensible discussions about what's new and the direction things are going with the addition of all the new stuff.

Best Regards,

Rachael
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Offline VEGETA

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2018, 07:48:27 am »
Quote
But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months.

Yes, because this is the big major problem. Now one says that eagle is bad altogether or so, its features are nice for everyone and no argument about that. The killer is the subscription model itself. This will always be the center of argument because it is the reason people left eagle in the first place. These people never left it because they realized it is stupid after using it for years. You seem to say that people should focus on discussing eagle features but I am telling you they don't question them in the first place.

Quote
In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think.

Yes but you are locked in a very old version for ever. This won't be good for companies IMHO... If so, then using kicad is a better choice. At least it gets updated and gets new features.

So yes, they threw you under the bus. :horse:

Quote
Before Autodesk took over, EAGLE was going nowhere. There were no new features of any note and no sign of any of the features people were asking for being developed as Cadsoft didn't have the resources to do so.

Correct. However, they have wasted it by changing how people have been using it for years. They changed the reason why maker community made eagle the standard.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2018, 08:02:09 am »
In going to a subscription for v8 they in no way affected your existing v7 or earlier licenses, so not really thrown under any busses I don't think. My v7 license still works just fine and people have currently had 15 months post subscription change to find an alternative if they don't want to continue with EAGLE.

There are two problems with that. First, the new subscrition does not work with older versions. Before V8, when you bought a license, it was valid also for older versions.

Second problem: The lack of a grace period blocked us from buying another license for V7. So, if we want to hire another engineer, we are screwed.
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2018, 08:19:50 am »
Quote
But all these arguments are based on the same old anti Autodesk/Subscription arguments that have been regurgitated on pretty much every EAGLE related thread on the forum in the last 15 months.
Yes, because this is the big major problem. Now one says that eagle is bad altogether or so, its features are nice for everyone and no argument about that. The killer is the subscription model itself. This will always be the center of argument because it is the reason people left eagle in the first place. These people never left it because they realized it is stupid after using it for years. You seem to say that people should focus on discussing eagle features but I am telling you they don't question them in the first place.

Yes I am. If the thread title was all about licensing then fine, jump in and have another rant. My point is, there are lots of new features coming to EAGLE now, far more than CADSoft added in the previous decade. We should be able to discuss these without every single new EAGLE thread being ruined by the same old anti Autodesk, anti subscription ranting. It doesn't matter whether people are questioning EAGLE's features or not. Are you saying because nobody questions Altium Designers features that there should never be any discussions on that either? I'm pretty sure I saw a number of threads discussing new features when AD18 was released. You know, if that's the case, we may as well not have these forums relating to the different tools as having discussions about them seems to be somehow against protocol?

« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 08:44:16 am by rachaelp »
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Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2018, 09:22:38 am »
If the thread title was all about licensing then fine, jump in and have another rant.

Well, the thread title was asking for "any thoughts", and some people seem to have a very limited repertoire of thoughts on the topic of Eagle... :P

I am also annoyed by these recurring "contributions". I don't like software subscriptions, and am in fact still using Eagle V7 (because it's good enough for the occasional hobby projects I do). But it seems that all has been said about Eagle's change to subscriptions. Over the past 9 months I certainly have not learned anything new from the posts of the usual suspects on this matter. Too bad the forum software does not allow me to block certain users in certain sub-forums only...
 

Online Fred27

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2018, 09:31:37 am »
I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.
 

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2018, 10:27:59 am »
Well, the thread title was asking for "any thoughts", and some people seem to have a very limited repertoire of thoughts on the topic of Eagle... :P

I am also annoyed by these recurring "contributions". I don't like software subscriptions, and am in fact still using Eagle V7 (because it's good enough for the occasional hobby projects I do). But it seems that all has been said about Eagle's change to subscriptions. Over the past 9 months I certainly have not learned anything new from the posts of the usual suspects on this matter. Too bad the forum software does not allow me to block certain users in certain sub-forums only...
It seems inevitable that people bring forth their opinions when the statement is made that people respond the the subscription model on an emotional basis. Poke the monkey and get a response. ;D
 

Offline ReneK

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2018, 11:02:59 am »
Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?
Even Matt opens his V9 announcement with talking about subscription, so this seems to be the feature of interest.
 
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2018, 11:58:41 am »
Can we not have a thread discussing the features of a new version without the same people wading in and converting it into yet another subscription rant thread?
Even Matt opens his V9 announcement with talking about subscription, so this seems to be the feature of interest.

Trying in this way to come up with justifications for the continued trolling of every EAGLE thread is quite sad. You know full well the subscription isn't the feature of interest for the v9 release that was the intention of this thread.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:30:33 pm by rachaelp »
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2018, 04:58:45 pm »
I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.

Ok, let's have a look at this feature (for starters):

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-0-0-increased-frequency-of-crashes/td-p/7950054

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/8-9-0-crashing-consistently/td-p/7951133

Don't say this is an isolated incident. Their forum is full of crash reports or errors with almost every version.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:01:10 pm by Karel »
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2018, 05:46:01 pm »
I agree. There's been plenty of (valid) opinion on licensing. Let's keep this to a feature discussion of possible.

Ok, let's have a look at this feature (for starters):

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-0-0-increased-frequency-of-crashes/td-p/7950054

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/8-9-0-crashing-consistently/td-p/7951133

Don't say this is an isolated incident. Their forum is full of crash reports or errors with almost every version.

Yep this is a valid discussion topic  :-+

So, what you find is that there are bugs which tend to happen most when a feature release happens and then they get eliminated over the next few minor point releases which are always bug fix only (since 8.5) and a lot of the initial bugs will get eliminated in these point releases.

For the crashes, it looks like its a lot but it's probably a very small percentage of the users. People who don't have crashes tend not to post on a forum to say that it's not crashing :-DD

Anyway, it tends to be very system specific often, and related to graphics drivers. Quite often I see these reports and they are people with HP/Dell boxes with out of date drivers. Usually they've relied on Windows update to tell them if they need a driver update or the update utility provided by the box manufacturer. Often pointing them at the NVidia / AMD websites for the latest drivers fixes the issues.

Now, this might not be the cause for the two cases you quote above, but I would imagine the developers are looking at those and getting test cases and working on getting fixes in place.

So, given the vast array of different hardware / OS / driver platforms that EAGLE can run on, and given the 25 year (??) legacy codebase, do you seriously expect there to be absolutely no bugs when new features are being added? Of course they could always revert to the CADSoft feature addition rate but then I don't think people would like this either ;)
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2018, 05:56:39 pm »
So, now you are the one here to do damage control instead of Jorge?
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2018, 06:03:11 pm »
It's hard to criticize a company when all your work is currently held hostage by their continued desire to keep the project active. You'll subconsciously cringe at any negative attitude towards them, because you know deep down that you are at risk. You may even consider it a "favor" they are doing you, by giving you your tools back every month, and perhaps will start apologizing for their problems. This is the exact reason why stockholders love subscriptions, it's basic psychology. Not only do you get a constant stream of revenue, but customers develop a hostage bond and instinctively recoil from biting the hand that "feeds" them, and they also forget how much the product actually costs and only value the software quality against the monthly price...so you don't have to work as hard to make sure the software is of professional quality.

Apologizing for someone else's mistakes and trying to hush down criticism is what you do when you're in an abusive relationship.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2018, 06:09:51 pm »
So, now you are the one here to do damage control instead of Jorge?

No, for two reasons:

1) I'm just an EAGLE user, but I use EAGLE a lot and, I do spend a lot of time on the Autodesk EAGLE forum trying to help people where I can and I have seen an awful lot of what is going on.

2) There is no damage control to be done. EAGLE is in a better place feature development wise than its ever been and I suspect the improvements will continue. Stability was a bit shady in the early v8 days but it is slowly coming back now and it seems there are an awful lot of people who are more than happy with how things are now under Autodesk.

Are there issues still? Yes, of course there are. I don't necessarily agree with the direction they've taken on a few things, but in general, from 8.3 onwards the added features have all been pretty worthwhile.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2018, 06:10:15 pm »
Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

Autodesk Eagle: Have you ever seen show Lost? There was a button they had to push every 108 minutes or else terrible things would happen.
 
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2018, 06:23:04 pm »
It's hard to criticize a company when all your work is currently held hostage by their continued desire to keep the project active.

Yeah this is one of the most ill informed and ignorant comments so far....

My data isn't held hostage. If the license servers went away today I'd have 30 days to continue with the current premium entitlement and then it would revert to the free limits. I'd still be able to open everything and export back to v7 format so I could still open all my data in v7. Now, if I wasn't fortunate enough to have a v7 license to fall back on, well EAGLE is a very open file format and as many people on here like to point out that almost every other ECAD tool has very good importers for EAGLE data. So where is the risk exactly? I can continue with EAGLE v9 and fall back to v7 if my subscription came to an end or migrate easily elsewhere if that's what I wished to do.
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2018, 06:26:43 pm »
Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2018, 06:32:44 pm »
I have my business's next few months planned out; scrambling to find a replacement for a core tool isn't on the schedule. My schedule, for my business, that I would like to control at all times wherever possible.

Handwaving "oh, the files still exist and the format is documented" is pointless right now because none of the existing tools can smoothly import Eagle files and continue to work on them with no interruption in productivity. I like my backup plans to be based in reality, not stuff that requires 10 people to cram a year's worth of software development into a single month.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2018, 06:35:52 pm »
Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.

Strange that the frustration you mention never rose to the level that I noticed it during that period, while the frustration from users right now is enough for you to call it "trolling." Did you apologize for Cadsoft's software bugs during that period?
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2018, 06:40:29 pm »
Handwaving "oh, the files still exist and the format is documented" is pointless right now because none of the existing tools can smoothly import Eagle files and continue to work on them with no interruption in productivity. I like my backup plans to be based in reality, not stuff that requires 10 people to cram a year's worth of software development into a single month.

So all the arguments for migrating away from EAGLE with people saying migrating to KiCAD was simple and pain free were all lies then?

As I said, v7 is available to me anyway so it's pain free to go back to that. And my scenario above was based on the worst case scenario of the license servers disappearing over night which in reality is extremely unlikely.

For me and plenty of others EAGLE is still a perfectly good option, if it's not for you, fine, do what you need for your business.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2018, 06:46:10 pm »
Eagle 4 through 7: Slow update cycle, but it worked with a single-digit number of crashes over 10 years, on all three operating systems that I regularly used it upon.

And during this period how many feature request were made and how frustrated were all the users when virtually none of them had made it into even v7? The answers to these are lots and very.

Strange that the frustration you mention never rose to the level that I noticed it during that period, while the frustration from users right now is enough for you to call it "trolling." Did you apologize for Cadsoft's software bugs during that period?

So you don't remember all the complaints about not having a proper reverse board view that wasn't using the mirror command? I do and EAGLE has this now.

You don't recall all the people asking for Push & Shove on a regular basis? I do and EAGLE has this now too.

You don't recall all the people complaining about LTSPice integration not working properly and not being available on all platforms? I do, and guess what? EAGLE has ngspice fully integrated right into the schematic editor now.

Do you remember people complaining that the CAM wouldn't create directories if they didn't exist? I do, and guess what? The new CAM processor (albeit it does have UI issues) will now create directories. It's a small thing I know, but hey, it's a request they listened to and implemented.

I could continue but I'm sure you get the point.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2018, 06:49:52 pm »
I would agree that anyone saying it's easy to migrate from Eagle to KiCAD is not being truthful. It's something I'm still working on, partly on hold right now due to using Altium for some contract work. I think you're missing the point though; we're frustrated entirely BECAUSE it's so hard to move to another CAD program. A major change in licensing and in stability was suddenly implemented on a platform that many people have been integrating into their workflow for 20 years...with no warning. Bugfix support for Eagle 7 ended instantly, if an operating system change breaks it, they will not fix it...and they were still selling Eagle 7 weeks before changing the license.

If I'm still not fully migrated to a new platform after a year, then two weeks (now four weeks) was never enough time.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2018, 07:04:06 pm »
I would agree that anyone saying it's easy to migrate from Eagle to KiCAD is not being truthful. It's something I'm still working on, partly on hold right now due to using Altium for some contract work. I think you're missing the point though; we're frustrated entirely BECAUSE it's so hard to move to another CAD program.

I get that a lot of people are frustrated by the change. But this all happened 15 months ago and I'm sorry but it's not an excuse to continually trash every single EAGLE related thread and effectively prevent people having a civilized discussion about other EAGLE features that may be of interest to them. Doing this all the time on every thread is tedious and frankly very rude.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2018, 07:20:21 pm »
15 months is a very short time compared to how long I have been using Eagle, so it's still fresh for me.

It's also very rude to lie about this sort of controversy appearing on "every single Eagle" thread, you can easily look at other recent threads and see people discussing features with no one popping in to mention the subscription complaint.

I'll discuss the topic if it comes up. That's not "all the time" and on "every thread" so reel that back in.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2018, 07:48:57 pm »
I'll discuss the topic if it comes up. That's not "all the time" and on "every thread" so reel that back in.

Ok I was exaggerating to make the point, but its sometimes how it feels. I wasn't meaning you specifically either, so I apologise if it appeared I was singling you out with my comment. So you are right, it's not every thread, but it's regular enough on threads relating to new EAGLE releases that it's quite frustrating.

For EAGLE v9 there are plenty of new things which could have been discussed. The new design manager in the layout tool, also the changes to the rip tool. In the schematic there is the new bus manager, component breakout etc. Very little, to do with real features got discussed, just licensing.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 07:57:40 pm by rachaelp »
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2018, 08:05:31 pm »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion.

That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription. What's yours? If you want to talk about features rather than the subscription, perhaps lead by example instead of only posting in here to do damage control?
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2018, 08:07:38 pm »
3. Again, this argument/discussion is largely based on emotions.
Apparently you missed the discussion about archiving.

A monthly (or even annual) subscription tool is an unworkable model for a product that must be maintained over years or even decades. Many contracts require maintaining source materials and the tools to "compile" the product to maintain/update it over its lifetime.  You can't archive something that requires calling in to the mother-ship every few days.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2018, 08:12:27 pm »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion. That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription.

But that's exactly what makes those posts rather boring -- they do not add anything new to the discussion.
So why do you post them? For the warm fuzzy feeling of being amongst like-minded peers?  :P
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2018, 08:15:08 pm »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion. That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription.

But that's exactily what makes those posts rather boring -- they do not add anything new to the discussion.
So why do you post them? For the warm fuzzy feeling of being amongst like-minded peers?  :P

Oh, well it relates to the promise I made to Matt. I'm going to publicly mention my dissatisfaction with the subscription model at least once per year, until either one of us dies or Eagle is discontinued, or offers a permanent license option (negating my main concerns).
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2018, 08:18:37 pm »
Does the "standard" version include auto-routing? 
I can't find any simple answer to this on the website. 
Heavy on whizzy eye-candy and short on hard details.   :--
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2018, 08:25:37 pm »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion.

I hope there would be a majority of people who hold their own opinions and not just agree with everything Dave says :D

That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription. What's yours? If you want to talk about features rather than the subscription, perhaps lead by example instead of only posting in here to do damage control?

Lead by example? I've mentioned features to possibly discuss twice now and both times it's been turned back round to this same argument straight away. Again, I am not doing damage control, I am just an EAGLE user, I have no need to be doing damage control.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2018, 08:28:18 pm »
Lead by example? I've mentioned features to possibly discuss twice now and both times it's been turned back round to this same argument straight away. Again, I am not doing damage control, I am just an EAGLE user, I have no need to be doing damage control.

Sure, it's just that you don't come in here to discuss features either. You come in to defend Autodesk.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2018, 08:29:09 pm »
I'm going to publicly mention my dissatisfaction with the subscription model at least once per year, until either one of us dies or Eagle is discontinued...

Sit back and relay; you have already built a stockpile that will last you a lifetime...
 
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2018, 08:32:47 pm »
Can't rest on my laurels yet; someone might develop an upload civilization and we might have millions of years to fight back predatory subscription models.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2018, 08:41:59 pm »
Let's discuss the new ripup tool. How's it treating you Eagle 9 users? Does it rip up too much, or not rip up enough? Thoughts?
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2018, 08:56:46 pm »
Hi Guys,

It seems things have gotten a little out of hand again. :-\

I'm subscribed to this forum, but for some reason haven't been getting messages. Looks like I have missed quite a bit.

For those who are still harping on subscription, the best thing I can suggest is to get it all out. Say everything you feel, how upset you are about the situation, how Autodesk ruined EAGLE etc. Get it all out in one go, scream at me if it helps, I just want all of the frustration to come out. Once it is all out, it's important to accept the reality of the situation. The reason it's important is because once the reality of a situation is accepted then the human tendency is to find ways to cope with said reality. The ways to cope have been discussed at length in this thread and others, I won't rehash them here. Subscription is not going away, Autodesk has transitioned to subscription for all new purchases of all of their products. For those of you who feel that subscription is killing EAGLE, the numbers just don't reflect that. At this point in time EAGLE has more users than it did under Cadsoft, and this is largely due to the pace of development and all of the enhancements that have been made to EAGLE. You can say that is false, call me a liar, of course I have to say that, etc. That won't change the facts, we have more users now then we did before.

I understand the anger, and in a certain sense it's comforting because it shows that you guys still care about EAGLE, otherwise you wouldn't bother. It's been 15 months of Autodesk stewardship, you guys have seen what the result has been, not going to reitirate it. I encourage those of you who are still angry to get it all out, if you want to go to our forums feel free. Once it's all out, then do what's best for you. There is unfortunately, a lot of misinformation about so if something isn't clear just ask and if I know the answer I'll give it to you if I don't then I'll find out for you guys. Look at what EAGLE offers you now, understand your options and make a decision. For some of you how EAGLE is now works for you and makes sense, that's awesome! However, If you find that it just isn't for you then I want you to be productive, I want you to use a tool that you are happy to use and make a living with. EAGLE can be that tool, it is for many users and I would want it to be the tool for everyone (it's what Autodesk is shooting for as well, for whatever that is worth) but I know you can't please everyone. This is especially true with EAGLE, with all the drastic changes that have happened.

Let's not keep fighting over this because it's getting us nowhere and I'm sure it's affecting the vibe here on Dave's forum. I appreciate the passion all of you have for your work (@macegr you do awesome stuff man, keep it up) and I'm here to help with EAGLE in whatever way I can. I hope this in some way helps to move things forward, and if it doesn't then I'm sure I'll hear about it soon enough. :)

Thanks everyone, as always let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia


 
 
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2018, 08:58:26 pm »
Hi Richard,

Yes it does. The autorouter is included in all editions of EAGLE now.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2018, 09:25:38 pm »
I'll consider putting the issue aside after Eagle has successfully existed with a built-in remote kill switch as long as it existed beforehand. That will prove to my satisfaction that subscriptions work as a long-term software model. See you in 25 years...
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2018, 10:35:43 pm »

It seems things have gotten a little out of hand again. :-\

Emotions are best for romantic relationships.....not analyzing the merits of software and the companies that develop that software.

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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2018, 11:02:33 pm »
I dumped Eagle for day to day use well before the subscription thing came about, so it really only cements my decision to never even consider looking at Autodesk products again. The reason it's still a thorn in my side is that rental software is a cancer that is spreading throughout the industry and I will continue to speak out against it as long as this trend continues. On the bright side, it has been a huge boost to open source alternatives which are getting far more attention than they did previously. It's to the point where open source can meet *almost* all of my daily needs. Anything that can be done to undermine the subscription-only cancer is worth doing. In the end the only solution is to avoid using any of it, and continue to advocate others avoid using it, that's the only way any company will ever listen. It's already been made abundantly clear that Autodesk doesn't give a crap about the opinions of their customers but if they lose enough customers perhaps they'll start to change their tune.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2018, 11:22:27 pm »
Emotions are best for romantic relationships.....not analyzing the merits of software and the companies that develop that software.
I appreciate your contributions to the forum and the work you do, but insisting people respond on an emotional basis doesn't really help the discussion. Especially since articulated arguments aren't addressed. Any other person I would have considered a troll at this point, but your consistently level-headed and good natured replies on this site tell me your posts are probably not intended as such.

Might it be an idea to continue this discussion elsewhere, where there's room for your response to the arguments posted before?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:28:20 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2018, 11:30:41 pm »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2018, 11:31:06 pm »
I was mere minutes from dumping Eagle.....until they started actively developing and offered a subscription. Your 'cancer' is my opportunity to get all of my design software updated and it all works way better than the stuff I owned (and spent massive $$$ for).

Altium has an excellent Eagle import so if Eagle/Autodesk burns me or I get frustrated for any reason.....Altium transition is only a $10k check away and a couple months of learning a new system.

The data is not lost.

I would have considered a troll at this point, but your consistently level-headed and good natured replies on this site tell me your posts are probably not intended as such.

May it be an idea to continue this discussion elsewhere, where there's room for your response to the arguments posted before?

Clearly, I don't mean to stir up a conflict - but I am honestly baffled at this conversation. To me, it is quite simple, yet many of the the posts show me people that are angry. They (appear to be) personally offended, malipulated, lied to, etc......
All I see is a failry normal business pivot in the midst of a confusing transition period.

Without Autdesk - Eagle would have continued to slowly die. With Autdesk, Eagle has a new chance at life, but only becuase they abandoned the old ways of thinking (for better or for worse). There is no change that would keep everyone happy.....but it appears they are gaining ground overall. I cannot fault them for wanting to survive long enough to eventually thrive.

If nothing else...they are turning up the heat for Altium and any other players in the commercial space.



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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2018, 11:36:28 pm »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.

They are listening, but have to make a binary choice - perpetual or subscription.

I doubt the choice was made for any other reason than the beleif that the profitibility would be bolstered. That is the only reason they are in business - make money. My guess is that they are gaining customers and cash flow. You are right, if it fails to make money, they will re-consider.
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Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2018, 11:38:07 pm »
I was mere minutes from dumping Eagle.....until they started actively developing and offered a subscription. Your 'cancer' is my opportunity to get all of my design software updated and it all works way better than the stuff I owned (and spent massive $$$ for).

Honestly I think offering a subscription is a fantastic idea, clearly it meets the needs of some customers quite well.

The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2018, 11:44:20 pm »
The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.

Not sure if this is still true, but Adobe was doing both for a while. I am presently on subscription with them.

It is a business analysis question on both sides. I was on Eagle 6.xx and just about to dive into something else, but mainly because Eagle was not going anywhere. My more expensive software was getting old (and unstable), but I literally did not have the money to do anything about it.

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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2018, 12:16:46 am »
My bank changed my credit card number (apparently yet another data breach putting my number at risk?)
That broke my monthly payment to Adobe for Creative Cloud and they have been hounding me ever since to pay up.
But it just isn't worth $50/month for a bunch of apps that I will never use just for the 2-3 that I was using occasionally.

I downloaded Audacity to replace Adobe Audition.  Although I am going to be trying Waves/Tracks Live and Reaper also.
And I downloaded Blackmagic Design Davinci Resolve to replace Adobe Premiere.

https://www.waves.com/mixers-racks/tracks-live#presenting-tracks-live
https://www.reaper.fm/
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/
 

Offline ehughes

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2018, 12:49:26 am »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.

The other general problem I can see with all low end software is that there is significant time in managing the artifacts of the design (assembly drawings, BOM, etc)     It would be nice if future versions could offer more in terms of managing the flow of output data.

As far as subscription goes,  I think it was the best thing Autodesk could have done.      There is actually work being done on the product!




 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2018, 12:54:24 am »
The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.

Not sure if this is still true, but Adobe was doing both for a while. I am presently on subscription with them.

So am I, and because I'm not a photographer or graphic artist with tons of work product tied up in .PSD files, I'm fine with that.  If I were, I'd be as annoyed with Adobe as I am with Autodesk. 

I don't mind paying for a Creative Cloud subscription because there are plenty of other programs that edit .BMPs and .PNGs.  If Photoshop becomes unusable, obsolete, or unlicensable for any reason in the future, I'll shrug my shoulders and move on with life.  I don't have that luxury when it comes to my .SCH and .BRD files.

Quote
They are listening, but have to make a binary choice - perpetual or subscription.

No, they absolutely do not have to do any such thing.  They could offer both, and let the customer decide.  "But if we offer perpetual licenses, we'll have to actually work for a living!" is not a good business model for anyone but a predatory monopolist. 

In this thread, we've been frequently reminded of all the Great New Features That Are Finally Being Added to EAGLE.  But if that's the case, and continuous improvements and enhancements are on the way, then the subscription model shouldn't be necessary to drive revenue.

(Another point worth making: those who are sympathetic to Autodesk's plight are welcome to disagree with the anti-subscription sentiment, but unless their name is Dave Jones, they have no business preaching about what is and is not acceptable for discussion in the thread.)
 
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #100 on: April 25, 2018, 07:00:04 am »
(Another point worth making: those who are sympathetic to Autodesk's plight are welcome to disagree with the anti-subscription sentiment, but unless their name is Dave Jones, they have no business preaching about what is and is not acceptable for discussion in the thread.)

Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.
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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #101 on: April 25, 2018, 07:23:10 am »
Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.

This is personal for you, isn't it? I wonder why. You have decided to boycott Autodesk forever, which is fine. But why can't you let go, and why do you feel compelled to spoil Eagle for others, who may feel it meets their needs? And why the personal vendetta against a few Eagle proponents?

Please take a step back and reconsider. This can't be healthy for you, and it certainly is not healthy for the atmosphere here in the forum.
 
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #102 on: April 25, 2018, 07:25:31 am »
Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.

 :-DD

Again, I am NOT an Autodesk employee :D I'm just an EAGLE user. Granted I do like it quite a lot and I am not afraid to say so. But then I came from using DxDesigner / PADS a few years back and those tools drove me insane with their clunkiness and rigid workflows which didn't at all fit with how I wanted to work. I can configure EAGLE to work exactly how I want which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I was however getting a bit disheartened with the lack of progress by the end of v7 though which I guess is one of the reasons I am quite able to accept the less popular changes since v8 came along, because for me the features I always hoped would be implemented are starting to get implemented.

So, apologies if I got a bit "preachy". It's just I think everything that can be said about the licensing has been said a thousand times already (*Disclaimer, this is just an expression, I haven't actually counted  :P) and it's not doing anybody on either side of the argument any good to keep it going.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #103 on: April 25, 2018, 07:30:20 am »
This is personal for you, isn't it?

No, it isn't. Autodesk screwed us and now I have to be quiet? I don't think so.

Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.



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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2018, 07:35:53 am »
Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.

Oh, that applies to me as well now? Doesn't take much to get into your bad books... I do like it "here", I just don't like your attitude. Fortunately the forum software has ways to deal with that.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2018, 07:38:11 am »
Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.

Oh, that applies to me as well now? Doesn't take much to get into your bad books... I do like it "here", I just don't like your attitude. Fortunately the forum software has ways to deal with that.

Excellent. Problem solved. No need for you to continue whining.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2018, 10:03:24 am »
:-DD

Again, I am NOT an Autodesk employee :D I'm just an EAGLE user. Granted I do like it quite a lot and I am not afraid to say so. But then I came from using DxDesigner / PADS a few years back and those tools drove me insane with their clunkiness and rigid workflows which didn't at all fit with how I wanted to work. I can configure EAGLE to work exactly how I want which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I was however getting a bit disheartened with the lack of progress by the end of v7 though which I guess is one of the reasons I am quite able to accept the less popular changes since v8 came along, because for me the features I always hoped would be implemented are starting to get implemented.

So, apologies if I got a bit "preachy". It's just I think everything that can be said about the licensing has been said a thousand times already (*Disclaimer, this is just an expression, I haven't actually counted  :P) and it's not doing anybody on either side of the argument any good to keep it going.

Heck, as far as I'm concerned, they should be paying you.  You've been extremely helpful to users of CadSoft's (and now Autodesk)'s product for years.  :-+  And not excessively preachy about it, IMHO, for what it's worth.  8)

I did not have you in mind when I wrote that post, which was itself a bit of an exercise in hypocrisy.
 
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2018, 04:24:37 pm »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.


Hi ehughes,

We have test builds of this feature going already. Should make it into a production release soon. Stay tuned.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2018, 04:26:13 pm »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2018, 05:16:57 pm »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.


Hi ehughes,

We have test builds of this feature going already. Should make it into a production release soon. Stay tuned.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

This may be the single most persistant annoyance  - hope to see it soon. Snap to 45 will be excellent.

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2018, 05:41:53 pm »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.

Hi Deridex,

I hope you're doing well. The hero products at Autodesk (AutoCAD, Inventor, Maya, etc) have a few other options for implementing the subscription license, so perhaps at some point we may be able to use those options as well. However, there are no immediate plans for this.

Thanks for asking.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2018, 06:14:00 pm »

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?

Hi rx8pilot,

When using the push/shove mode the trace will move existing traces around, it does a full push/shove operation. Currently it can't handle vias but that is in the plan for a future release.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are asking? Could you clarify?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2018, 06:21:58 pm »

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?

Hi rx8pilot,

When using the push/shove mode the trace will move existing traces around, it does a full push/shove operation. Currently it can't handle vias but that is in the plan for a future release.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are asking? Could you clarify?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

[Good chance I am doing something wrong]

I have been loving the push/shove function while laying new traces. What I am asking is ~after~ a trace is routed - it appears that push/shove no longer works if I simply click a previously routed trace and move it around. I essentially looks like it goes back to free routing and allows me to put the trace anywhere.

The new 'Quick Route' looks like a tremendous addition, although I have not yet tried it myself yet.
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2018, 06:41:25 pm »
Hi rx8pilot,

Thanks for clarifying. Currently Push/Shove is only working in the route command, however we will improve move to have the push and shove functionality as well. It's on our todo list. ;)

You're not doing anything wrong, move just can push yet.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2018, 08:52:06 pm »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.

Hi Deridex,

I hope you're doing well. The hero products at Autodesk (AutoCAD, Inventor, Maya, etc) have a few other options for implementing the subscription license, so perhaps at some point we may be able to use those options as well. However, there are no immediate plans for this.

Thanks for asking.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Thank you for your answer.
I can only recommend to move this point a bit higher on the priorities-list. I think it's something that might be able to convince developementdepartments to use eagle.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2018, 10:59:19 pm »
1. I don't really care much about confusion over the subscription.

Actually, if you are going to comment on this.. really you really, really should care.  The reasons is that if you condone bad corporate behaviour, then the corporates will continue to do it. 


Quote
2. I seriously doubt that the guy that said they were not going that direction had any idea the Autodesk was about to take over the hopes, dreams, and culture of the CadSoft world. During an acquisition - it often feels like it is going to be one big happy family. Later, they realize it is a cold dictatorship and their opinons are squashed like little insects.

No.  Matt was in a position to know - he flipped on his original statement.  Now whether he was dictated to by up on high or or not is irrelevant - you don't make one statement and then turn around and do something else without explaining yourself.  Times changes and sometimes we have to reverse our decisions, but if your customers are the ones who are directly affected by this, then it is vitally important that you articulate yourself well, and make it clear.  You all also need to provide options and solutions to those who you have right and royally torpedoed with a change. 

Autodesk did *NONE* of that, and this is what made their actions all the more deplorable. 

In fact I would say you would be hard pressed to have handled what they did any *worse*


Quote
I have built/sold two businesses and worked for 2 others that were sold. It is a confusing mess.

3. Again, this argument/discussion is largely based on emotions.

Yes and no. 

I am forever saying that subscriptions are not inherently evil - it is how they are implemented that either makes them evil or not.  The method that Autodesk chose to implement for "enforcement" of this particular subscription model is what makes it a terrible choice.  You can't just package up your build environment into a VM and tuck it away for future reference.  Heaven help you if like me, you spend inordinate amounts of time in the middle of no-where. 

Maintaining support for stuff in the industrial space for 15-20 years is the "norm" ... *NOT* the exception.  Not being able to tuck your license up like this is problematic for a whole bunch of reasons.  Autodesk isn't alone in this (I can list a whole bunch of other vendors off the top of my head which also do this), and I honestly believe that organisations that pull this kind of crap need to go bust. 

   This kind of crap HAS TO STOP

The thing is the world doesn't revolve around the industrials - the money is in the consumer space and the rules there are a whole lot different. 

Where this *does* become emotional is when *you* have to personally put your hand in your own pocket because of a corporates bad behaviour.  I have had to personally do this with switching from Eagle (my previously preferred vendor) to KiCad ... and let's be honest here ... as far as KiCad has come ... its got a *lot* of room for improvement.  When I did this, it personally cost me just shy of 50k AUD to convert everything across (I still use my V7 licenses because there are things in KiCad that I just *loath* and a lot of my old workflows simply don't port over very well). 

So, am I massively pissed off at Autodesk?  You bet. 
Am I justified when a organisation decides to alter the terms of use for the tool that I base my living on?  Pretty much. 

So yes, in my particular case (and I can only ever comment on my own particular case), I am emotional as it has personally cost me a lot of money - money which I really didn't have to spend. 

WARNING!!!
   Small children or those with sensitive eyes ... look away ... it's time to get "emotional".

<emotional mode on!>

Ultimately Autodesk bought the tool and they have every right to do with it as they choose. 

By the same token, I also have every right to call out the low-life-piece-of-shit MBA wankers that they are when they pull shenanigans like this. 

... and do note that I specifically say MBA wanker as I've never met an engineer who would deliberately lower themselves to this level of barstardry ...

   ... except for maybe those at Apple ....
   ... and the inventors of the BGA package ... 

<emotional mode off>

Hows that ... emotional enough?   :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:45:41 pm by bgm »
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 
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Offline bgm

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2018, 02:27:06 am »
I'm subscribed to this forum, but for some reason haven't been getting messages. Looks like I have missed quite a bit.

Hi Jorge,  Long time no speak.  Yeah, I've been away a bit as well, but unlike you, I've been back to being in the middle of no-where. 

Quote
For those who are still harping on subscription

As I have said, over and over and over again, subscription isn't the issue. 

It is "implementation" that was the actual pain point.  It is the implementation of that subscription system that has caused the pain, misery and general suffering.  I "subscribe" to a bunch of software products (VMware, dbVisualiser, etc).  They all have subscriptions models.  The difference is that they didn't try to be arseholes about it, demanding this always on connection bullshit, nor do they decide to turn everything off at an arbitrary point in time. 

No pay the dollars, no updates for you.  I have absolutely *no* problems with that. 

But to need to contact a license server to just use the software.  I'm sorry ... that has knobs (with barbs) all over it (think of that scene in Little Nikita with the Devil, Hitler and the pineapple) even with that 14 (or is it now 30) days grace?  Considering last time I was away in the middle of no-where, I was away from 3 months.  How useful would that have been to me? 

Subscription and implementation ... two different issues. 


Quote
For those of you who feel that subscription is killing EAGLE, the numbers just don't reflect that. At this point in time EAGLE has more users than it did under Cadsoft, and this is largely due to the pace of development and all of the enhancements that have been made to EAGLE. You can say that is false, call me a liar, of course I have to say that, etc. That won't change the facts, we have more users now then we did before.

Simply saying "subscription is the reason" isn't tell the whole truth. 

Lets play a simple what-if game.  Lets assume that v7 was done wholly on subscription (and let's not pretend it was the braindead one the is in current use, but lets assume it was good implementation).  How much would it have affected the numbers?  I'm guessing ... probably not a whole lot.  Maybe 15%. 

What has changed most is the development .. *that* is probably what is driving the majority of your numbers. 

Finally, off all the people in Autodesk, I have more time for your word than any of your employers management - hold your head high on that one (you have nothing to apologise for there). 


Quote
However, If you find that it just isn't for you then I want you to be productive, I want you to use a tool that you are happy to use and make a living with. EAGLE can be that tool, it is for many users and I would want it to be the tool for everyone (it's what Autodesk is shooting for as well, for whatever that is worth) but I know you can't please everyone. This is especially true with EAGLE, with all the drastic changes that have happened.

When we finally bit the bullet and migrated, and it was neither a smooth nor a cheap process to change tool (anyone who says is it is, is completely and utterly full of shit).  I'm still burning because I'm still using *both* tools (the new is .. well ... lacking in certain areas). 

In future, don't treat your customers with contempt.  If you do, you won't have them for very long.  We shifted because you simply didn't leave us with a choice.  Our work environment isn't going to change and the Autodesk subscription implementation is retarted to the point that it is unworkable in a disconnected environment (for example ... in the middle of no-where). 

For Autodesk to improve it's profitability, it damn near sent me to the wall.  Don't expect me to particularly happy or pleased about that.  I still watch what happens with Eagle as I still use it (v7 premium for now), and I make *no* bones nor pull any punches in regard to my opinion of the subscription licensing implementation - it is complete and utter shit. 


...actually there an advertising slogan for you:
  Eagle 9 ... all new and improved.  Better layout, cool features and still with a shit licensing system!  GET IT NOW!!!   

Yes I know, I'm being silly .... 

On the more serious side though, this still does not even for one minute deal with the other elephant in the room and that is in regard to long term support (5+ years), something which I have responded to others about in other threads because we come across it *all* the time - especially when SaaS tools are used.  That isn't just bad ... it's a form of evil that you simply cannot fathom until you have to deal with. 

... put simply if anyone is using the current version of Eagle (8 and 9) with the current licensing system for anything needs to be supported well into the future...  they are clinically insane. 

Anyway ... enough of this.  Good so see you back.  Make sure you've donned the flame proof undies and have fun! 
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2018, 02:53:19 am »
bgm, we already kept the lights on long enough at Cadsoft to complete the time-consuming process of building reputation. Autodesk doesn't need us anymore. They are perfectly content to gain profits by replacing their existing user base with a new one which will Stockholm themselves into apologizing as customers for the fact that bugs are added monthly, and won't have any uncomfortable questions about long term support. Autodesk bought name recognition, not a pile of old customers who don't want to rent software.
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2018, 01:28:36 am »
bgm, we already kept the lights on long enough at Cadsoft to complete the time-consuming process of building reputation. Autodesk doesn't need us anymore.

I only paid once for Eagle and never upgraded because the development never justified it. They only got around $600 or so from me for 4 years. That is about 2 minutes of operating expenses perhaps.

For those that want to see the new stuff and also have tons of time....

https://youtu.be/7BkrHLtC-GY

I did have some play time and the new features are really nice. It will take some time to dig through them all - there are a lot of improvements. Most of them seem practical and useful too. Schematic and layout got a lot of attention. A whole lot to take in and learn. I have a habit of not learning the new features on software because I have learned to work around the previous limitations. It is important that I take the time to learn the new stuff so that I can take advantage of the improvements.

The design manager is awesome. The auto-finish routing tool is really handy. I am pretty happy to see Eagle pushing forward into the territory of professional. Some of the details that are still missing apparently are in the works.

Still total shit.....the graphics engine. I really wish the layer transparency was usable. It still has this horrible hash-shading that makes it difficult to see through layers. Altium has this down and it makes life much easier (being able to see what you are doing).

Overall....I am really happy to see consistent progress. I think Eagle is not up to about the expectations I had in about 2006-2007. That is upgraded from the previous version that I placed around 2000-2002. At the rate they are going, Eagle will be up to 2018 in about 1-2 years. Not bad.

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2018, 04:50:50 am »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.

You're not being honest.  You can say they don't care about the opinion of their customers who are angry that they went subscription, but don't pretend to speak for me and others who are happily subscribing to the software because you don't speak for us.  And you speak for a minority of users, not for their customers as a whole.  Autodesk is doing best for their customers by serving the majority, not by catering to a whining minority that continues to whine after being told they no longer want your business.  It's getting frankly embarrassing - it's like a girl telling you she isn't interested in you anymore but you keep coming around and telling her your demands if she ever expects to date you again.  She's moved on and she's much happier now.  She doesn't want you anymore!

I just subscribed to Eagle.  The previous version was ridiculously expensive for how shit the software was.  I just spent $100 for a year license.  The previous version was $600 if you got standard ($800 with the autorouter), or $1200 for pro ($1600 with the autorouter).  And Cadsoft was painfully slow to release new versions, updates or bug fixes.  Autodesk has made some huge improvements quickly.  At this rate, I'll have to subscribe for 10-15 years to come out even to where I would have been with CadSoft on day one... and that's if Autodesk wasn't putting some serious development effort into this software.  But they are, so I am coming out way ahead.

Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore. 
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2018, 04:55:22 am »
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore.

But she took all my CDs with her..
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2018, 06:52:28 am »
Interresting how fast this topic goes into personal attacks  |O

I can just try to explain my side of view:
My view is of a developementdepartment. Here we got as example ... let's just say 15 guys that sometimes need a EDA-Tool. So, if i see this correctly, we got here about 15x the subscription, because it's simply not doable to active the sub as soon someone needs one.

Now let's think about this with Altium as example: You can set up a private license-server with way less licenses.
If i calculate right, you are a fter a few years cheaper than eagle. And this is just crazy, because i think Altium is still way more powerful than eagle.

For hobby use i would actually go for Diptrace or Circuitstudio if i feel like KiCad is not enough.


Edit: Thanks to rx8pilot: I did not know that eagle now offers shareable licenses.

Then in my sight only 1 realy bad point about the subscription stays: What happens if Autodesk shuts down the servers.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:33:34 am by Deridex »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2018, 07:26:52 am »
You can share Eagle licenses....I have it on multiple computers but can only use one at a time. Similar to a network license or dongle.
Just figure out how many simultaneous users you need.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2018, 07:57:10 am »
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, ...

I offered Autodesk the full price for a V7 pro license. They dont want to sell me one.
There was no advance warning and no grace period.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2018, 02:00:29 am »
Quote
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore.

To correct the analogy a bit; we're married, own a house together, and have kids. Now she has a new guy in the bedroom, has changed the locks, and wants to charge me rent.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2018, 06:29:24 pm »
Quote
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore.

To correct the analogy a bit; we're married, own a house together, and have kids. Now she has a new guy in the bedroom, has changed the locks, and wants to charge me rent.

No, the correct analogy is you still have the house and the kids and have everything you had before except the future you were counting on (but shouldn't have counted on).  But your ex wife has a new guy and is happier now.  You are pining for the old days, but those days are gone and you just can't accept it.  You're telling everyone that she doesn't care about anyone except herself.  But the kids are happier because mom lost weight, is more fun to be around and she takes vacations with them.  She is friendly to you and her new husband is too.  They want you to get out there and meet someone new, or they'd like to be your friend too and hang out with them... but you insist on showing up at every event and telling everyone what a horrible person she is for destroying the family and ruining everyone's lives... but nobody sees that... they see most people doing better and that you are just bitter and stubbornly refusing to get over the breakup.

Honestly, analogies are meaningless.  The simple fact is the software is NOT going back to the previous licensing version no matter how much you complain.  This change happened a long time ago.  The time to grieve/whine/complain is long, long past.  At this point, it's just attacking and polluting threads that would be otherwise productive just to work out your grudge, at the expense of other users who would otherwise be getting useful information from those threads.  That's a pretty shitty thing to do to fellow EEVBloggers just because you're pissed that you feel Autodesk slighted you.

Time to move on.  Hurt them where it counts, in their wallet.  If enough of you do the same, they will go back to the old way.  If not enough do, then the crowd has spoken and you are the minority and your only recourse is to find another vendor who meets your needs.  You don't have the moral/ethical right to devalue everyone else's ongoing experience with the product because of your grudge.

My .02.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #126 on: May 02, 2018, 07:17:56 pm »
I think that's the reason a lot of people do complain, to advocate for people speaking with their wallets, and encourage looking at alternative products. Personally I try to get as many people as possible using KiCAD since that's my EDA of choice. The more people using it, the more development effort it will receive and the better it will get. Since it's free and open source it can't suddenly go subscription. The fewer money vampires quietly sucking at my wallet every month the better.
 
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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #127 on: May 08, 2018, 09:05:36 am »
Karel & The Club,

Will this subscription shitstorm happen every time Autodesk releases a new version of Eagle?  :--

I was looking forward to hearing something about the new features...
 ::)

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #128 on: May 08, 2018, 09:41:30 am »
I was looking forward to hearing something about the new features...
 ::)

In this thread, the op asked for any thoughts. If you don't like those thoughts, feel free to start a new thread where you specifically ask for news about the new features.
Or visit https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2018, 09:44:54 am »
I was looking forward to hearing something about the new features...
 ::)

In this thread, the op asked for any thoughts. If you don't like those thoughts, feel free to start a new thread where you specifically ask for news about the new features.
Or visit https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500

If you actually read the OP's actual post, it's quite clear that's not what was intended. You're stretching to try and justify continuing to trash EAGLE threads for your own amusement.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 
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Offline Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2018, 10:09:35 am »
What has changed so significantly in EAGLE to warrant a major version change (V8 -> V9)?

It also seems that every release takes longer and longer to open to the main control panel, comes to something when Altium loads faster than EAGLE these days!

All of this subscription rubbish is fine if you use it occasionally, those of us who use a package daily is not cost effective, there might be a lot of releases vs Cadsoft, but the releases are not in my opinion significant enough to warrant paying over and over again for the software.

Thankfully those who still produce OSHW projects that use EAGLE (lot more using KiCad these days) are small enough to use comfortably in the free edition.

Someone I spoke to recently summed it up nicely, EAGLE is no longer worth it for businesses, but fine for hobbyist use.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2018, 11:04:59 am »
What has changed so significantly in EAGLE to warrant a major version change (V8 -> V9)?

The Design Manager is quite a significant usability improvement, it makes navigating your design, getting useful information like trace lengths, layers used, via count etc really easy and makes making changes to a trace or groups of traces quick because you can find and form a group of traces quickly.

The Rip-up tool has changed significantly. It now has many modes. Some of them are just exposing features which were previously only available on the command line (all and polygons) but it's added various modes for ripping connected copper or ripping between devices.

The new quickroute modes which enable you to tell EAGLE to finish off the route you are currently making, or you can also get it to route a number of nets at once. It's not 100% yet and on my boards which tend to be very dense with very tight DRC rules it does struggle. I tend not to use it but I'm sure it'll get better and become usable.

In the schematic there are lots of enhancements to make using busses a lot easier and also for breaking nets out from components. I had a ULP previously which added a context menu entry for defining and managing busses. With v9.0 this is now no longer needed as the bus functionality has been significantly improved.

It also seems that every release takes longer and longer to open to the main control panel, comes to something when Altium loads faster than EAGLE these days!

How long does it take to load on your machine? I just timed loading up the latest version on macOS and it took around 3.5 seconds to get to the control panel. This is a little longer but not significantly longer than with v7 which took just over 2 seconds. I'd be more concerned it if were taking tens of seconds.

All of this subscription rubbish is fine if you use it occasionally, those of us who use a package daily is not cost effective, there might be a lot of releases vs Cadsoft, but the releases are not in my opinion significant enough to warrant paying over and over again for the software.

It only costs more if you used to use a previously licensed version for a number of years and not upgrade to later versions. But if you kept the license up to date and were always licensed for the latest edition of EAGLE under the old scheme it works out similar if you pay for the annual licensing. If you use it less often then the monthly may work out cheaper when you don't subscribe every month.

Thankfully those who still produce OSHW projects that use EAGLE (lot more using KiCad these days) are small enough to use comfortably in the free edition.

You can still open larger designs even in the free edition, if they are larger than the free limits you can still view them and run the CAM. But yes you can't edit in that case.

Someone I spoke to recently summed it up nicely, EAGLE is no longer worth it for businesses, but fine for hobbyist use.

That's just one opinion. There are lots of people who find EAGLE worth it for business, I'm finding more people now using it for commercial purposes than ever. Compare features between EAGLE v7 and EAGLE v9, there's lots of worthwhile changes.

Of course, that's just my opinion too :D

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2018, 05:51:24 pm »
What has changed so significantly in EAGLE to warrant a major version change (V8 -> V9)?

The Design Manager is quite a significant usability improvement, it makes navigating your design, getting useful information like trace lengths, layers used, via count etc really easy and makes making changes to a trace or groups of traces quick because you can find and form a group of traces quickly.

The Rip-up tool has changed significantly. It now has many modes. Some of them are just exposing features which were previously only available on the command line (all and polygons) but it's added various modes for ripping connected copper or ripping between devices.

The new quickroute modes which enable you to tell EAGLE to finish off the route you are currently making, or you can also get it to route a number of nets at once. It's not 100% yet and on my boards which tend to be very dense with very tight DRC rules it does struggle. I tend not to use it but I'm sure it'll get better and become usable.

In the schematic there are lots of enhancements to make using busses a lot easier and also for breaking nets out from components. I had a ULP previously which added a context menu entry for defining and managing busses. With v9.0 this is now no longer needed as the bus functionality has been significantly improved.

It also seems that every release takes longer and longer to open to the main control panel, comes to something when Altium loads faster than EAGLE these days!

How long does it take to load on your machine? I just timed loading up the latest version on macOS and it took around 3.5 seconds to get to the control panel. This is a little longer but not significantly longer than with v7 which took just over 2 seconds. I'd be more concerned it if were taking tens of seconds.

All of this subscription rubbish is fine if you use it occasionally, those of us who use a package daily is not cost effective, there might be a lot of releases vs Cadsoft, but the releases are not in my opinion significant enough to warrant paying over and over again for the software.

It only costs more if you used to use a previously licensed version for a number of years and not upgrade to later versions. But if you kept the license up to date and were always licensed for the latest edition of EAGLE under the old scheme it works out similar if you pay for the annual licensing. If you use it less often then the monthly may work out cheaper when you don't subscribe every month.

Thankfully those who still produce OSHW projects that use EAGLE (lot more using KiCad these days) are small enough to use comfortably in the free edition.

You can still open larger designs even in the free edition, if they are larger than the free limits you can still view them and run the CAM. But yes you can't edit in that case.

Someone I spoke to recently summed it up nicely, EAGLE is no longer worth it for businesses, but fine for hobbyist use.

That's just one opinion. There are lots of people who find EAGLE worth it for business, I'm finding more people now using it for commercial purposes than ever. Compare features between EAGLE v7 and EAGLE v9, there's lots of worthwhile changes.

Of course, that's just my opinion too :D

Best Regards,

Rachael

Personally I still use V7, which I have a pro license for, and yes I know you can open larger designs, but sometimes you need to move stuff out of the way to see what's behind it etc.

For me there are not significant enough changes, they might be "nice to haves" but certainly not necessary between V7 + V9, especially considering how much it has cost me vs how much it would have cost me at the current subscription rate.  Started using EAGLE on V4, moved through to V7 progressively, tried 8, nope.

EAGLE starts in approximately 8 - 10 seconds, providing I don't have to "sign in", I have an i7 with 32GB RAM, Windows 8.1 x64, Altium starts in around 5 seconds for comparison, EAGLE 7 starts in around 1 second.  This has been true since V8, though it does seem to get slower, from clicking the icon to being able to use the control panel.

That is interesting as I find less people are using it commercially, 99% of jobs for PCB design are all asking for either Altium, ORCAD, or bizarrely some are asking for Pulsonix.  I haven't found a single one asking for EAGLE.
I do see a LOT of adverts on sites like UPWORK and FREELANCER that ask for designs to be ported from EAGLE to something like Altium, particularly in the UK.

I have even seen 1 advert asking for skills in KiCAD!  Never thought i'd see that but hey ho!

EAGLE was a good tool, it seems a bit bloaty now with the online connection and subscription code they have added, when it is running it runs as well as it ever did, and I have used V9 just to see if it was any improvement on V8, sadly for me I can't see one, some new icons perhaps.

You pay your money you take your choice, if you find the new version and the subscription model works for you then great, for those of us who do not think that way it is quite sad to see the decline.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2018, 07:13:44 am »
Autodesk will slowly erode its base across all software platforms; the acceptance as an industry standard, the knowledge that if you developed skills with Autodesk products you would always be able to find work, and always be able to get that work done. The subscription model does not fit long-term business strategy, engineering best practices, and archiving requirements. I live in the SF Bay Area, the heart of SaaS development, and I'm hearing rumbles as applications evaporate away and skillsets become useless. The SaaS model is great for hobbyists and students, but eventually as industry stops using these products it will be seen as a bad investment of time to learn tools that won't be used in industry. Eagle was just barely starting to break into mid-range industry after a long stint in small shops. AutoCAD was firmly entrenched in industry until Solidworks came along; it took a long time for Solidworks to achieve industry acceptance but they currently offer both permanent licenses and a subscription service. Sam Sattel's recent article mocking the need for transportable file formats (in favor of only using Autodesk products for every step of design) doesn't give confidence that Autodesk will put in good-faith effort into transportable file formats, to ever let you out of their ecosystem if you want to take your files and go. Or if they want to take your software and shut it down.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #134 on: May 21, 2018, 03:29:00 pm »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths. Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.

Here is a sneak peek of the upcoming orthogonal 45/90 degree drag feature for 9.1 from Matt Berggren on his twitter: https://twitter.com/technolomaniac/status/997955781218648064

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2018, 04:02:37 pm »
Sooooooooo happy to see 45/90!

Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #136 on: June 05, 2018, 10:15:07 pm »
There is some effort in simplifying adding new library parts!! At the moment - it is not very good, but seems to be going in the right direction overall. I just started a new project that has a lot of new parts so I tried it.

library.io
https://youtu.be/_88Tk5pcdbo

It is no surprise this is a cloud tool that syncs with Eagle locally. There is pretty much zero effort to improve part creation locally inside Eagle so I hope this is fully developed. For the packages supported, it is nice but there are too few packages to get through most designs.

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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2018, 09:08:36 am »
There is some effort in simplifying adding new library parts!! At the moment - it is not very good, but seems to be going in the right direction overall. I just started a new project that has a lot of new parts so I tried it.

It is no surprise this is a cloud tool that syncs with Eagle locally. There is pretty much zero effort to improve part creation locally inside Eagle so I hope this is fully developed. For the packages supported, it is nice but there are too few packages to get through most designs.

I agree, it's a step in the right direction, but it does have a long way to go and it really should be built into EAGLE and not a cloud tool wrapped up in an embedded browser. It does mean that for packages it supports you can have "managed" packages with 3D models within your local (unmanaged) libraries and these will work with Fusion360. I'm not a fan of managed libraries, they add a lot of complication for keeping things in sync between local and cloud and will cause conflicts if you use a version control system locally for your EAGLE files and need to check out an earlier version. So anything that reduces or removes the need to use these is a positive thing.

But be careful to check any BGA or fine pitch parts you create with it. Currently it uses the built in stop mask and paste mask auto generation which is not suitable for these types of parts in a lot of cases so you need to go fix the packages for these after it has created them.

I really hope they do add extra functionality into the main library editor to make component creation quicker though. The IPC wizard is a nice addition but there will always be packages in large designs which is doesn't cover, oddball non standard packages or connectors for example, so making the basic tools for creating parts better is a must IMO.

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2018, 03:06:44 pm »
Sooooooooo happy to see 45/90!

In which case you'll be wanting to download 9.1 now it's released then :)

One word of warning, it doesn't correctly import your previous directory configurations (bit of a bug!) so either copy them to somewhere handy before launching v9.1 or have v9.0 and v9.1 open side by side and copy them across.

There is loads of new stuff in v9.1 as well as the 45/90 move mode, too much for me to list here but it's all in the release notes :)

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2018, 06:01:30 pm »
Sooooooooo happy to see 45/90!

In which case you'll be wanting to download 9.1 now it's released then :)

One word of warning, it doesn't correctly import your previous directory configurations (bit of a bug!) so either copy them to somewhere handy before launching v9.1 or have v9.0 and v9.1 open side by side and copy them across.

There is loads of new stuff in v9.1 as well as the 45/90 move mode, too much for me to list here but it's all in the release notes :)

Best Regards,

Rachael

Loaded it last night - HUGE changes.

The 45/90 seems fiddly relative to Altium - perhaps some learning curve or optimization. Overall it is a major upgrade. Really starting to look like a professional package now.

There are so many new features that I need to specifically allocate the time to learn them. Not just incremental improvements - but real feature adds. I hope this development pace keeps up. There is still some ground to cover, but Autodesk is picking up speed. It is the first moment that I have been happy I use Eagle since I started using it about 5 years ago.

Excellent.
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2018, 11:57:13 am »
The 45/90 seems fiddly relative to Altium - perhaps some learning curve or optimization. Overall it is a major upgrade. Really starting to look like a professional package now.

Altium is one of the few packages I haven't really had a proper go at using. I've dabbled briefly with the 14 day free trial but never really got into it. How is the 45/90 operation in Altium less fiddly? From what I can tell there are more different modes and features in the EAGLE version. For example depending on whether you drag a vertex or a corner the way it moves will change and there are various snap modes too to help put things back on the correct 45/90 angle, also it supports preserving non 45/90 angles too if that's what you need, it also works on polygons not just routes. I think probably you'll find once you test it out some more and get to grips with the various modes you'll find it works very well.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2018, 12:28:09 am »
Some update notes on the Eagle updates......

They have added quite a few nice updates delivering features going in the direction of a commercial software solution.

Here is were Eagle is failing miserably: The Library.

The earlier versions of Eagle were pretty bad in terms of creating and managing parts. After countless hours of fiddling, screaming, and cursing at the top of my lungs - I finally worked out an approach to creating and managing parts.

The last few updates it is clear that Autodesk is approaching this issue, but they are making things worse in the meantime. Now we have a half-old and half-new system that is stunningly convoluted and ineffective. It is hard to tell the difference between a genuine bug and an intended feature.

It is so rotten and slow that all the benefits offered in the schematic and layout are largely negated in terms of time. My current project is a clean sheet design so I am adding and updating dozens of parts which is a world of pain.

It may alleviate some frustration if there was current documentation or videos that really laid out the workflow and concepts from beginning to end. That would not, however, change the reality that each and every task takes 10x the keystrokes and mouse click than it should. It requires the users to commit a lot of effort researching, hacking, and memorizing the bizarre process.

I fell like a test subject and my business is financing the development of Eagle with wasted time.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2018, 06:55:19 am »
Well, what can you do.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2018, 07:05:42 am »
Switching to a different ECAD system is very, very expensive......so I can't do much more than hope for the best.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2018, 07:39:35 am »
You could switch back to Eagle 7, with me. We don't hope for the best over here (other than KiCAD 5 or 6), but we have always-on availability and consistent workflow. Plus we have nachos!
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2018, 08:43:18 am »
Is Eagle v9 still backwards compatible with the old < v8 libraries?
In that case you could use a free ver 6/7 and create the library there how you were used to and then use it in v9.

It is IMO a very bad sign that they now ship software with obvious bugs in them, as long as you can roll-back to earlier versions that is ok, if you are forced to update to "the latest and greatest" that is bad.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2018, 09:29:35 am »
Is Eagle v9 still backwards compatible with the old < v8 libraries?
In that case you could use a free ver 6/7 and create the library there how you were used to and then use it in v9.

It is IMO a very bad sign that they now ship software with obvious bugs in them, as long as you can roll-back to earlier versions that is ok, if you are forced to update to "the latest and greatest" that is bad.

Yes v9 will still read v7 libraries, they've not taken away the backwards compatibility there. Also, you don't need to go back to v7 to do libraries the old way. The new version can still do everything the old one can in terms of regular EAGLE libraries, you aren't forced to use managed libraries at all, unless you want to fully utilise the Fusion360 integration. There are also improvements in general in the library part creation process which make using the latest version an advantage such as the ability to create all the pins on a symbol from a CSV or from a copy/paste from a PDF table. I have to agree that the new managed libraries are extremely confusing and cause too many issues. I just don't use them as a result (except in a very limited way occasionally as detailed below) which is a shame because I think the whole integration with Fusion360 is really cool in theory.

I actually don't think regular EAGLE libraries are too bad in terms of the time it takes to create and manage them once you're good at it and have a decent process in place. It's always going to take a significant amount of effort no matter what ECAD tool you use. Of all the tools I have used over the years, once I ditched the built in EAGLE libraries and built my own completely from scratch it is probably the quickest and easiest to maintain and add new library parts. There is always room for improvement though!

I'm not going to defend the Managed Libraries system, of all the changes made to EAGLE, this is the one I find least benefit and most problematic. Too much is pushed to and dependant on the cloud, and an overly convoluted process is required to create and manage them. All this required functionality to add/display 3D models of components in EAGLE should be done IN EAGLE, not on a web page, and certainly not half and half with a requirement to continually push/pull and create new versions locally/remote to try and keep everything in sync. It should all be done natively with a one way push to the cloud so Fusion360 has visibility of the required libraries.

So the only way I can find to make use of Fusion360 utilizing the Managed Libraries system without ruining my otherwise slick library flow is to export all the used regular libraries from a board into a single library which I then make managed. I add all my 3D models to the components on that library and then take a copy of the board and update it to use the new managed library. I can then get a 3D view in Fusion360. It's a far from ideal way of working but it's the one which requires least headaches.

I really hope they'll get this sorted out so we can make use of the Fusion360 integration without the current level of issues caused by the requirement to use managed libraries.

Best Regards,

Rachael
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2018, 05:27:23 pm »
The dominant reason I stayed with Eagle was based on the advertised integration with Fusion 360. In fact, that was also a major factor when I decided to embrace Fusion 360 after a 20+ year run with Solidworks and MasterCAM. Over the years, I spent enormous amounts of time trying to coordinate EE designs with ME design. Inevitably, there was always something missed.....a tall cap hits the lid of the enclosure, screws holes are shifted little, no room for wires, the display does not match the window cutout, etc, etc.....

I did some tests with some tiny projects and it was really nice to it working. My current project is solidly the most complicated I have ever attempted - so any issue with the software is magnified.

While I am frustrated with the disjointed shotgun approach Autodesk is taking - technically it is still better than switching/learning/paying for other options. At least at the moment. They could REALLY solve a lot of problems by releasing written and video documentation as the features are developed. They leave the users to accidentally discover features and then hack their way through learning them. It takes a lot of time and I never feel like I truly know the tool.

When they changed the way vias where dropped onto a layout, technically it was an upgrade. The problem is that I did not know what was happening until I slogged through an ultra-dry 50 minute webinar where it was casually mentioned.

The product needs a guy like Lars Christensen that does loads of Fusion 360 videos on YouTube. He shows the tools, the concepts, examples, exercises, etc so the viewers can see the intent of a new feature or how to tie a dozen features together to achieve a more complicated goal. He works for Autodesk and is an excellent product ambassador.

Eagle does not have anything like him - not even close.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2018, 07:41:55 am »
Well, just keep biting your knuckles and waiting for your tool to automagically become production worthy for a couple solid weeks at a time.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2018, 03:56:11 pm »
Well, just keep biting your knuckles and waiting for your tool to automagically become production worthy for a couple solid weeks at a time.

I wish I had a simple alternative.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2018, 05:21:31 pm »
Sorry, this is The FutureTM where it's silly to own or control your software. If you don't like that, please consider that Everyone Else Is Doing It and use this as a basis for your business decisions.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2018, 05:35:07 pm »
I could always go back to Solidworks, Mastercam, and purchase Altium Designer on top of that. It will only require that I write a check for $29,000 and enjoy about $3,000+/annually for maintenance. But I would own and control it while being out of cash and out of business.

While I am homeless, I could potentially rig my shopping cart with enough batteries to run a laptop and offer engineering services to random people for food?

I know that heavy-handed subscription models make some people cringe - but they serve a critical purpose. They allow a business like mine to have access to a suite of software products that I simply do not have the money to purchase outright. I am able to accomplish FAR more with a subscription to Eagle and Fusion 360 than I am able to accomplish with a non-existent license of Altium Designer, Solidworks, and Mastercam.

Eagle has issues - no question. The roll-out of new features is generally messy. The managed library is the biggest mess overall. All of its problems still do not add up to the massive money and learning curve of switching to a new system.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2018, 05:45:06 pm »
I once knew of a product to fill the niche between incomplete free software and expensive enterprise packages. A product where you could just buy a license, cost less than $2000 a seat, and while it may not be cutting edge was at least quite clean of bugs and usable, and isn't intentionally kneecapped. A product where a small business owner didn't have to choose between control of their tools, or homelessness.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2018, 05:53:10 pm »
I once knew of a product to fill the niche between incomplete free software and expensive enterprise packages. A product where you could just buy a license, cost less than $2000 a seat, and while it may not be cutting edge was at least quite clean of bugs and usable, and isn't intentionally kneecapped. A product where a small business owner didn't have to choose between control of their tools, or homelessness.

Are you talking about the old Eagle?

If so - they could not make it work as a business. The next owner could not make it work. The latest owner is taking on a big gamble - but they probably have a better chance since they have a longer runway and the ability to parallel it with Fusion 360.

If Eagle was not an Autodesk owned subscription service - it would literally be gone. While that would not immediately brick all existing users - I need current and support software on way or another. I was considering the Altium Circuit Studio as a stepping stone to a full seat of Altium Designer.

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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #154 on: July 17, 2018, 10:09:35 pm »
If so - they could not make it work as a business. The next owner could not make it work. The latest owner is taking on a big gamble - but they probably have a better chance since they have a longer runway and the ability to parallel it with Fusion 360.

I'm a software guy who tinkers with hardware, rather than the other way around, so I (think I) have a useful perspective as a longtime EAGLE user.  Basically, Autodesk bought the name EAGLE.  They didn't receive any software IP of any particular value going forward.  Trying to "cloud-ify" a 20+ year old program like EAGLE while bringing it up to modern UI standards would be an Augean task.  If the necessary changes were easy ones to make, CadSoft would already have made them.  Instead, the code base has been passed from one acquirer to the next like a hot radioactive potato.

So if Autodesk thought they were getting an actual finished product to sell, or even one that could be profitably maintained through incremental development, then they made a big mistake, and by now they'll have realized that.  I doubt that's the case, because the Autodesk guys are not newbies in the software industry.

If they did know what they were getting into, then we can assume that they allocated a team of strong, experienced CAD developers to the product at the time of acquisition.  This team will have been dedicated to the task of rewriting the package from scratch, with nothing retained except the .brd, .sch, and .lbr formats.  They will be working entirely behind the scenes, and will continue to do so for some time to come.  The resulting product will carry the name EAGLE forward for the next 20+ years.  However, unlike the current monolithic executable, it will be engineered with modern tools and practices to grow and evolve from day one. 

And that's the point at which a subscription-based licensing model begins to make sense.  What they are selling now is a stopgap measure which doesn't.  A screwed-up library manager is the least of the grief that users can expect if Autodesk continues down this path.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #155 on: July 17, 2018, 10:35:40 pm »
It appears that they are taking the approach that a state highway department does when they have to completely re-do a major part of the freeway without totally shutting it down in the process. For a long time, it gets messy and possibly worse, followed by a nice finished product.

I would guess they are approaching it by modules - the library, routing, UI, etc. Not sure how it was coded or if that would make any sense. Autodesk did buy a large enough user base to probably break even on a development round but would have to attract new business to make it a success. I have no idea if they have what it takes to make it happen. Eagle overall is much better than my old CADSoft version - Autodesk has indeed stepped it up. They do, however, have a quite a way to go. Hope they stick it out.

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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2018, 11:18:16 pm »
Quote
It appears that they are taking the approach that a state highway department does when they have to completely re-do a major part of the freeway without totally shutting it down in the process. For a long time, it gets messy and possibly worse, followed by a nice finished product.

Well, they are renting you an EDA package with CAD integration. I believe you were expecting the product to do what it says on the tin, rather than 10 miles of traffic jams for a few years. If you knew it was unstable in-development software would you have based your business decision around that? Or kept looking for some software that does fulfill your requirements?

It turns out that nobody wants to pay for software that is still in beta with no end in sight, so marketing teams just don't say that it's in beta.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2018, 04:43:03 pm »
Jesus, tried the new V9.1.1 the other day and what a clunky turd of an interface it has now!
EAGLE has never been renowned for its interface, but at least the old one was relatively clean, I thought that V8 was bad but wow!
As a long time V7< user who has since moved away, I am thoroughly unimpressed with what Autodesk has done with it.

Thank goodness for V7
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2018, 05:42:33 pm »
Jesus, tried the new V9.1.1 the other day and what a clunky turd of an interface it has now!
EAGLE has never been renowned for its interface, but at least the old one was relatively clean, I thought that V8 was bad but wow!
As a long time V7< user who has since moved away, I am thoroughly unimpressed with what Autodesk has done with it.

Thank goodness for V7

I have not noticed the UI being anymore clunky - although it is different in some respects. Many of the tools have new options if you don't know what they are it is just confusing. The efforts in documentation are behind the development rollouts.

I went from V6 to the last release of V8 and had no real trouble related to UI.
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Offline TomS_

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #159 on: October 19, 2018, 09:01:41 pm »


This is more affirmation that the subscription method is killing the product, everyone seems to get it except Autodesk! I mean, don't they notice the few people who buy it vs what they expected?!

[citation needed]
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2018, 07:31:25 am »
I really don't see the point of using Eagle anymore.
Professionals use Orcad/Altium/Zuken/Cadence/etc.
Hobbyists/makers use Kicad.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline timgiles

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2018, 07:56:43 am »
Well I find the recent improvements (12 months) to be welcome. The new Design Manager interface is great, makes it much easier to switch between nets, view useful info when dropping diff. pairs, have close at hand info on via counts etc.. and Airwires left. But I am sure that for more professional people out there it is still the 'this is not AD' software interface that is seen by many as the gold standard. Autodesk to their credit is improving Eagle by leaps and bounds. I have tried a few open source alternatives but with the recent improvements am glad I stuck with Eagle.

Still not sure why subscription based licensing gets so many peoples backs up. It is cheaper in the short term, you can generally try something for a bit and jump ship without a large capital outlay. And from the software companies perspective, they have a steady revenue stream and can thus plan a long term strategy.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #162 on: October 20, 2018, 04:40:36 pm »
Still not sure why subscription based licensing gets so many peoples backs up. It is cheaper in the short term, you can generally try something for a bit and jump ship without a large capital outlay. And from the software companies perspective, they have a steady revenue stream and can thus plan a long term strategy.

It's because people like to own stuff, most people want to own their things rather than rent everything, we want to feel like we have control. With rental software it's yet another monthly payment, yet another wallet vampire, it can feel like getting nickel & dimed to death. There are quite a few people like myself out there who do not upgrade to the latest version frequently, for example I bought a copy of MS Office 2003 and have been using that same version for 15 years. If you look at the marketing for subscription versions of Office the price will always be compared against upgrading to the latest version every time but who does that? 15 years of subscribing at a "low" monthly price would be hugely more expensive than continuing to use the old version. The greatest factor is still probably control though, we've all seen countless companies go under, restructure, change direction, change pricing, abandon products, etc. I'm not going to invest in a software package by creating a bunch of content when I cannot have the option of sticking with the last good version before they decided to change it around and ruin it, or discontinue it. No way, no how, this is not negotiable.

On top of all that there is still the issue that Autodesk flat out LIED, saying they had no plans to take it subscription only very shortly before doing just that. It is an absolute certainty that they already had plans to go subscription, big companies don't make decisions like that at the last moment.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #163 on: October 20, 2018, 05:17:42 pm »
Subscription is more expensive for people who already owned Eagle and didn't need to "try" it for a month.

I still have V7 licensed, and it still works just as well as it did back when it was released.

There is nothing in the later releases that I can't find using free tools.

I don't understand Eagle's place in the market anymore.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #164 on: October 20, 2018, 06:47:24 pm »
The other problem with software subscription is lifecycle management.
If you made a uC product and compiled the firmware with v3.0 of a toolsuite you want to be able to do that same thing five years later if some nasty bug turned up or some customer want an extra feature.
You really don't want to first get the firmware to compile and build with the latest v6.3 software to find that it does not work and you sure don't want to find out that that company dropped the compiler in its entirety since sales were down.
From backups you want to be able to re-build you're entire product if needed.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #165 on: October 20, 2018, 08:55:23 pm »
The other problem with software subscription is lifecycle management.
If you made a uC product and compiled the firmware with v3.0 of a toolsuite you want to be able to do that same thing five years later if some nasty bug turned up or some customer want an extra feature.
You really don't want to first get the firmware to compile and build with the latest v6.3 software to find that it does not work and you sure don't want to find out that that company dropped the compiler in its entirety since sales were down.
From backups you want to be able to re-build you're entire product if needed.

I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem. Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #166 on: October 20, 2018, 09:17:15 pm »
I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem.
Yes, as long as you freeze at 7 and live with it.

Quote
Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
HA!  :-DD
All it takes is a Windows update or virus to wipe it out.
And without support, you are left dead in the water.

That is why people maintain isolated down-rev systems which never connect to the internet so that they can continue to run vintage apps like this.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #167 on: October 20, 2018, 11:49:28 pm »
I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem.
Yes, as long as you freeze at 7 and live with it.

Quote
Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
HA!  :-DD
All it takes is a Windows update or virus to wipe it out.
And without support, you are left dead in the water.

That is why people maintain isolated down-rev systems which never connect to the internet so that they can continue to run vintage apps like this.

It works fine on Win10 and also runs in a VM with Win7. There are not that many people that struggle with this particular issue, even if they need to refer directly to a design from 5-6-7 years earlier.

None of my old versions of Solidworks or Mastercam or CamWorks or Photoshop or Illustrator or Final Cut Pro still work and I have no support available for them. I spend a ton of $$$ for perpetual licenses and do not have any way to use them - I have converted all interesting data to newer software and I move on just like the rest of the world.

Eagle also imports very well into Altium, so if I chose to spend the big bucks and Altium transition is not that difficult. I can understand that you do not like the arrangement, but it is not all that bad. It fits my business pretty well now that they have done a pile of upgrades - fixing dumb problems and introducing a lot of new features.

The latest is far better than just 6 months ago and in a whole new league from the pre-Autodesk days. Still plenty of things missing or broken, but they are solving problems at a breakneck pace.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2018, 02:52:27 am »
What is this nonsense? When I boot the program I get an immediate network access request and an error when that's denied. When I allow it, I get prompted for a login. Why would I need a login to run a program locally? I just want to view a few board files.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2018, 03:12:27 am »
Why would I need a login to run a program locally?

Welcome to the modern world, where everything is sold as a subscription based service.  On Amazon, you can even subscribe to laundry detergent etc.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2018, 03:37:00 am »
I can use old Eagle with no login and no updates or support.
I can use new Eagle with login and regular updates (that are simple to roll back).
I can use Altium for $10k + $1500 annual maintenance with no login and no direct link to 3D design.

Pick your poison. I chose the lower cost and have been rewarded with a platform that covers EE and ME design plus gets me advanced CAM, rendering, and animation.

The alternatives are a cludgey mish mash with Atium, Solidworks, Mastercam, Keyshot, etc with a total cost of nearly $30,000 plus huge annual maintenance ~$5,000. I am getting all that for $600 or so per year. Not even a decision.



Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2018, 03:38:35 am »
Welcome to the modern world, where everything is sold as a subscription based service.  On Amazon, you can even subscribe to laundry detergent etc.
Except that I don't have nor want a subscription. I want to use the free version, which doesn't require a subscription. There's no reason to have an account or require access to the internet than for the sake of it.

I just realized they pulled the same on me with Sketchbook. That's an Autodesk app too. I paid for the app because I liked it, despite a few significant bugs. A few months later they "upgraded" the app and suddenly I needed to create an account and agree to arbitrary terms and conditions to access my existing sketches saved locally on my own machine. They sold the new requirements as a benefit, because the app I paid for was now free. That application went right in the trash, and it seems Eagle will too.

Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 03:40:45 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2018, 07:09:21 am »
Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?

Here it is: ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7/

Works without a licence with limited options but can also be used as a viewer
for bigger designs made with the professional/ultimate version.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline pointhi

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #173 on: October 21, 2018, 01:19:57 pm »
Quote
Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?

At least for the new eagle file format (v6+) you can now use KiCad to open and view them
 
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Offline Jefferson

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #175 on: October 21, 2018, 06:48:38 pm »
Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?

Here it is: ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7/

Works without a licence with limited options but can also be used as a viewer
for bigger designs made with the professional/ultimate version.
Thanks, I found that one too. Installation was quick and painless, but if KiCad also opens files I think I'll ditch Eagle altogether.

It surprises me that even with the schematic and board layout it's surprisingly hard to figure out which part is what on an Arduino, as they very kindly omit any kind of silkscreen markings or a readily available corresponding BOM.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #176 on: October 21, 2018, 06:56:27 pm »
It surprises me that even with the schematic and board layout it's surprisingly hard to figure out which part is what on an Arduino, as they very kindly omit any kind of silkscreen markings or a readily available corresponding BOM.

Arduino is amateurish from end to end, however it does deserve credit for giving a huge boost to hobby electronics. I just wish something a bit more polished had caught on instead.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #177 on: October 21, 2018, 07:23:58 pm »
Arduino is amateurish from end to end, however it does deserve credit for giving a huge boost to hobby electronics. I just wish something a bit more polished had caught on instead.

Well, I think this is a typical case of a successful project.
Yes the product itself is imperfect and rather clunky. But the execution was well done from start to end. Execution is 90% of what makes a project succeed.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2018, 07:41:36 pm »
Well, I think this is a typical case of a successful project.
Yes the product itself is imperfect and rather clunky. But the execution was well done from start to end. Execution is 90% of what makes a project succeed.
Not being able to tell from the available documentation what part you're looking at on the board seems to be a missed opportunity, other than that it's imprinting the importance of doing it right.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #179 on: October 22, 2018, 02:54:59 am »
The misalignment of the shield pins is a serious oversight that should have been fixed at the very first opportunity. The biggest issue I have is that the IDE is utter garbage and has not really improved much. Then there is the fact that changes have been made at times that break existing code, unacceptable for something targeted at beginners. I put up with these glaring faults because there is such a huge collection of useful libraries making it easy to get all manner of widgets working with minimal effort. I mostly use the Nano clones so the PCB issues with the fullsized Arduino are not a big deal to me.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2018, 11:53:08 am »
Quote
Arduino is amateurish from end to end, however it does deserve credit for giving a huge boost to hobby electronics. I just wish something a bit more polished had caught on instead.

99% of "products" for various markets I have come across are horrific inside, I honestly don't know how they get "passed EMC" on some  :popcorn:

They all work as intended, but it seems that poor work is accepted because those buying do not know any different.  Or care.
 

Offline Sylvi

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #181 on: November 10, 2018, 06:25:21 am »
Hi Guys

I got Eagle back in 2006 and did upgrade it to 4.16r2 which is what I still use every day. That was the Pro version with massive everything.

In 2012 I got 6.3 but never really used it until a year or so ago when I was having troubles with a new board house not being able to read the files properly. I got version 7? after and that was no different. It turned out the problem was not related to Eagle so I reverted back to my trusty 4.16r2.

I lay out audio boards mostly, and some switching circuitry for that, but nothing CPU-based, just CMOS gates and such like.

I NEVER use the auto-router as it does connects all the easy paths as directly as possible and leaves you with "toughies", and otherwise makes a mess of audio grounding and power feed.

There are tiny bugs in the software that are just a nuisance and easy to work around.

The most important thing is to SAVE FREQUENTLY.

I saw the subscription thing recently and have to laugh. It is too sickening and depressing to do anything but laugh. A poster mentioned "the cash flow improvement" but that is the flow INTO Autodesk's pocket from yours. It seems like any industry that uses software wants you to pay for use: Microsoft wants a subscription for their office suite - you can't just buy it; streaming movies from Netflix et al - they don't want you to buy it and neither does Hollywood or RIAA really - pay a royalty every time you watch the same movie - you actually pay an RIAA royalty on every data disc you buy - not just for the audio-only discs with that are $4 each! - games are buy subscription - radio is by subscription... it's endless.

I paid for Eagle one-time and have my licence to use it. I do so on an off-line computer. Anyone working on proprietery designs - or even just ones important to yourself - should not be doing this on a box tied to the internet. It is so inexpensive to have true security simply by buying a second computer, and then you do not have to rely on "security" built into the software. MS made a mess of their OS by making "security" so tight at one point that to open a file would crash the system.

Anyway, original Eagle was kind of quirky and does what it's supposed to do. I lay out my chassis in it and make libraries of the significant component outlines that influence the chassis space in two different views. Since drafting is something I like, I don't mind doing this and having 2D views to check for fouling conditions and such like, since you can do this as separate boards, or on other layers of the board editor. There is always a work-around and all of life is an improvisation.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #182 on: November 10, 2018, 08:52:59 am »
In 2012 I got 6.3 but never really used it until a year or so ago when I was having troubles with a new board house not being able to read the files properly. I got version 7? after and that was no different. It turned out the problem was not related to Eagle so I reverted back to my trusty 4.16r2.

If you have bought a license for V7, I recommend you to use that instead of V4.
V7.70 has many improvements over V4.16r2.

You can download it here: ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7/
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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