Author Topic: Eagle has moved up, way up.  (Read 7814 times)

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Offline rx8pilot

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Eagle has moved up, way up.
« on: February 17, 2019, 01:14:41 am »
In the past, I have been particularly critical of Eagle. There was so much to fuel my disappointment - enough that I was just about to pull the trigger on a 'real' piece of software Altium Designer. I use Eagle for commercial designs and it was so slow, cumbersome, and limited in capability that my business was being hindered by sticking with it.

A day or two before I jumped ship, Eagle released the beta option to 'sync' with Fusion360 which I was demo'ing on trial to replace Solidworks and Mastercam. This is where I turned a corner with Eagle. All of a sudden, I would marry my EE and ME efforts in a productive way. The Eagle team has since made huge improvements in most areas including routing and package creation. They still have a pile of crusty legacy issues, but overall the performance gains are enough to keep me from diving into another solution which not only costs big $$$ but also has a huge learning curve and transition cost where old designs are Eagle - new designs are Altium.

Curious if anyone else using Eagle for commercial designs has a similar experience. My current project has 14 PCBs in a very tight enclosure - very integrated and high-density packaging. Not sure I could have pulled it all off without the integration with F360. This feature really starts to pull Eagle out of the muck of hobby oriented software and into the realm of pro software. Still low-end overall, but professional nonetheless IMHO.

Altium and Solidworks are not only massively more expensive but also much more clumsy to collaborate EE and ME efforts.

Now, with all that said.....
Eagle needs an all-new graphics rendering engine for real transparency and mouse-hover net highlighting
Space mouse support
Separate layers for blind/buried/thru vias
The ability to open multiple projects at the same time
....and dozens more.
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Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2019, 07:10:47 am »
As far i know, the sync and 3D-Model-creation is cloudbased. And this is where the problem starts in my sight: I would probaly need to transfer customerdate to a cloud that is not in the control of the company i work at. While it might work etc. it would probaly cause us serios trouble with our customers.

Otherwise: We just export Step or Parasolid-files with Altium and the Solidworks can just import em.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2019, 07:31:17 pm »
There is no doubt that that cloud-based nature is a deal breaker for some. I do a lot of aerospace work now and Eagle/Fusion 360 is not even a conversation - it is all Altium, Solidworks, and HSMworks that are ITAR compliant.

For my non-ITAR work, Eagle and Fusion 360 covers a LOT of territory at a much lower cost and no one cares about how or where the data is generated or stored.
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Offline BigMark

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 07:58:56 pm »
There is no doubt that that cloud-based nature is a deal breaker for some. I do a lot of aerospace work now and Eagle/Fusion 360 is not even a conversation - it is all Altium, Solidworks, and HSMworks that are ITAR compliant.

For my non-ITAR work, Eagle and Fusion 360 covers a LOT of territory at a much lower cost and no one cares about how or where the data is generated or stored.

GDPR is going to be the main problem for many companies, and having spent a near full week implementing it at work, I can say any sort of cloud solution is out of the question now as I cannot see my employers even wanting to go down that route. Easier to buy off the shelf and keep on internal computers and servers.
 

Offline matseng

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 04:33:14 pm »
GDPR?  Isn't that protection for personal data of individuals? How is that related if one company keeps cad design files that they create for another company in the cloud or not?
 

Offline timgiles

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 06:10:08 pm »
Correct Matseng. The main part of GDPR covers the storage and use of personal data. This is considered to be anything from name, personal number (SWE), National Insurance number (UK), address, DoB, ..... that identifies you.

It also covers any unique IDs that are generated to reference you - even if those IDs are random, the instance of the ID being linked to you means it is covered.

However - GDPR is also much broader. Importantly for us in Europe, is that it gives us the right to know who a company will use our data, have the right to have any data related to ourselves deleted or cleaned (ie. the personal data or link to personal data is replaced - in logs this means you keep the log, you know the number of unique users - but - you dont know any particular log record was down to me or you using the system in question)...

Tons more good stuff in GDPR. Cloud services are AOK, if the user is informed that they are storing data, publishing / sharing data - GDPR has no effect.
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 06:48:51 pm »
Of course, since they now own your design files, every feature they add represents another potential point of failure added to another aspect of your business.  But hey, shiny.
 
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Offline matseng

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 07:54:49 pm »
"they now own your design files".  Eh? What kind of bullshit is that?   So you say that the files I create in Eagle and 360 is owned (as in ownership/copyright) by Autodesk and not me?

I guess you show me the paragraph in the ToC and license that says that they own the files? Or that that just FUD?

I keep both my eagle files and the 360 files in Github as well as in the Autodesk cloud.  The Eagle files can be read/converted by other ecad systems.  Whether the 360's can be opened by something else I don't know, and since they are not that important to me I currently don't care that much about it.

I also keep my code in the (gasp!) cloud at Github and use google drive for cloud storing files (again synched to folders on my computers). So I guess that Microsoft now owns all my code, and Google is the legal author of all my documents....  :-DD

And yes, I do hardware and software design for a living and I'm an oldtimer that rather read dox on paper than on a tablet - but I'm not a Luddite that can't change my ways and spreads hate when the old ways is changing.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 08:08:11 pm »
Of course, since they now own your design files, every feature they add represents another potential point of failure added to another aspect of your business. 

I'm afraid you are not thinking straight here.
Three strange claims in a single sentence:
  • "they now own your design files" -- what?!
  • Yes, newly added features might introduce new bugs or break backwards compatibility. But that has always been the case, wit ny software. What does this have to do with "owning your design files"?!
  • What other "aspects of your business" beyond PCB design were you thinking of? Is Autodesk now about to hijack my coffee maker?
Sorry, gotta run and get my tinfoil hat. "They" are coming!  :P

 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 08:48:54 pm »
Of course, since they now own your design files, every feature they add represents another potential point of failure added to another aspect of your business. 

I'm afraid you are not thinking straight here.
Three strange claims in a single sentence:
  • "they now own your design files" -- what?!
  • Yes, newly added features might introduce new bugs or break backwards compatibility. But that has always been the case, wit ny software. What does this have to do with "owning your design files"?!
  • What other "aspects of your business" beyond PCB design were you thinking of? Is Autodesk now about to hijack my coffee maker?
Sorry, gotta run and get my tinfoil hat. "They" are coming!  :P


figuratively "own" in that they have the on-off switch for the tools, even with the design files switching to different tool is no small task

 "other aspects of your business" in that is just another thing that could disrupt you business, though it might remove others
 

Offline stj

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 08:58:58 pm »
read the TOC on everything with online functions.

a surprising amount of apps make claims of ownership of "works" placed on their network.
it's why i wont have any part in it.

if a company tries that shit, i wont use it or recommend it to others - the same applies to software that sends logs home.
using teamviewer? yours is not the only "team" viewing!!
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 09:06:05 pm »
read the TOC on everything with online functions.
a surprising amount of apps make claims of ownership of "works" placed on their network.

Would you have an example or two?
Tx!
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 01:11:17 am »
read the TOC on everything with online functions.

a surprising amount of apps make claims of ownership of "works" placed on their network.
it's why i wont have any part in it.

if a company tries that shit, i wont use it or recommend it to others - the same applies to software that sends logs home.
using teamviewer? yours is not the only "team" viewing!!

Assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.
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Offline stj

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 01:26:27 am »
2 people who never read the EULA.
you probably also think that gmail doesnt scan your mails and open your attachments for a good look.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 01:31:39 am »
figuratively "own" in that they have the on-off switch for the tools, even with the design files switching to different tool is no small task

 "other aspects of your business" in that is just another thing that could disrupt you business, though it might remove others
Not too many people seem to analyse what would go into restarting production when the cloud infrastructure they rely on disappears, with or without the design files in hand.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 02:07:41 am »
2 people who never read the EULA.
you probably also think that gmail doesnt scan your mails and open your attachments for a good look.

Assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.
Gmail is not Autodesk.

Not too many people seem to analyse what would go into restarting production when the cloud infrastructure they rely on disappears, with or without the design files in hand.

Likely true. I did, to some extent. I decided to gain a lot of functionality with subscription and cloud software at the expense of the various risks of not controlling everything.

My overall costs went down. I no longer have dedicated servers, complex backups, large UPS's, and all the in-house software maintenance - all on top of the big $$ I was paying for software updates and upgrades. I have a small operation and was just overwhelmed with the IT costs, so I generally went with old, unsupported software running on old hardware. It is easy, and I have not been burned in quite a few years of being almost entirely cloud/subscription based.

Of course, it can all go sideways if Autodesk bizarrely decides to steal design data and simultaneously abandon cloud products. Technically possible, but the likelihood is so small it is not worth all the trouble and money I was burning in the traditional software 'ownership' scheme.

It would be bad and very disruptive if Autodesk abandoned Eagle or Fusion360 or Inventor or HSMworks for me - but the alternative is also disruptive. The aerospace company that I work for is a medium sized business and entirely operated on a cloud-based management system. It is far more capable than the previous in-house solution.

I am not an advocate either way - just saying that I weighed the options and decided the gains far outweigh the risks.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 02:12:21 am »
Assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.

The question, I think, is where the burden of proof belongs.  Given the rate at which the rantings of tinfoil-hat wearers are being vindicated by actual events, the burden of proof is on the companies to prove that they are currently operating in good faith and will continue to do so far into the future. 

Remember that Autodesk's stewardship of EAGLE began with a lie.  What are the odds that it was the last?

Of course, it can all go sideways if Autodesk bizarrely decides to steal design data

I don't think they are going to "steal design data."  (Although after they're absorbed in a joint venture led by Altium and backed by Huawei and ZTE in the Great CAD Vendor Liquidation of 2026, who can say what will happen, right?) 

But the fact is, you can't open your files and work with them without their permission.  That means they own those files.  And that means they own you.
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 02:34:45 am »
But the fact is, you can't open your files and work with them without their permission.  That means they own those files.  And that means they own you.

In the case of Eagle - that is not true.
Altium has a very good import for Eagle files. The files are not locked at all. All XML right now.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 02:37:17 am »
In the case of Eagle - that is not true.
Altium has a very good import for Eagle files. The files are not locked at all. All XML right now.

I know they're all XML, as I've written a metric assload of software to do various things with them. :)

What I don't know is Altium's native file format.  So I get to keep the data, but I lose my processes.  Yay.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 02:41:11 am »
Altium and Solidworks are not only massively more expensive but also much more clumsy to collaborate EE and ME efforts.

They do have a system for that.
You can be working on the PCB in Altium and the enclosure in Solidworks and the system makes it easy to push PCB changes to solidworks.

We had someone come in from either Solidworks or Altium (cant remember which) to demo the new integration system.
They were all excited about their new system.
First thing we asked was if can we now export the 3D PCB design into Soildworks with all the layers (something we have been after for ages).
Nope, you can't. No seeing tracks in Solidworks.
They left unhappy.

(I expect this is probably something they don't want to do because it would make it easier to create converters to other PCB design formats)

« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:44:28 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 02:42:19 am »
In the case of Eagle - that is not true.
Altium has a very good import for Eagle files. The files are not locked at all. All XML right now.

I know they're all XML, as I've written a metric assload of software to do various things with them. :)

What I don't know is Altium's native file format.  So I get to keep the data, but I lose my processes.  Yay.

I did some import tests with Altium and it gave me some confidence that if I had to quickly transition from Eagle to Altium - the biggest sting would be the check I have to write. It was remarkably easy.

I am going to guess that transitioning from Altium to anything else would not be so easy.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 02:48:27 am »
We had someone come in from either Solidworks or Altium (cant remember which) to demo the new Solidworks <--> Altium integration.
They were all excited about their new system.

First thing we asked was if can we now export the 3D PCB design into Soildworks with all the layers (something we have been after for ages).
Nope, you can't. No seeing tracks in Solidworks.
They left unhappy.

(I expect this is probably something they don't want to do because it would make it easier to create converters to other PCB design formats)

A few clicks from Eagle to Fusion360.....

I can manipulate features in Fusion360 and push to Eagle and make changes in Eagle and push to Fusion360.

Traces, vias, whatever is in the design. It is quicker and more detailed than just a simple solid export/import workflow.
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Offline boB

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2019, 03:04:11 am »
Looks like they're doing well with the newer Eagle version but we still use Eagle version 6.  Last 2 companies have been using Eagle for PCBs and schematics for almost 20 years now.  (used to use PADS PCB, Logic and oRcad before that)

We have 10 seats and it works plenty well enough.  We do integration with the mechanical engineers too and they take care of the 3D checking.

Many products shipping for the last almost 20 years and Eagle works just fine.  No one year software rental for us in the near future anyway.

We are using all 10 seats of Eagle I think.  We're not that big of company (80+ people).

Everybody knows how to use Eagle 6 and it works so why change  now ?

K7IQ
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2019, 03:33:27 am »
Everybody knows how to use Eagle 6 and it works so why change  now ?

If it works, keep it!
2 things pushed me to upgrade one way or another.....density and overall circuit complexity. High-speed digital needed differential routing (which still sucks in Eagle), blind/buried vias, lots of parts, and lots of schematic pages, etc. The routing improvements overall increased my speed even as the complexity was increased.

And, of course, the integration with the mechanical design which was really critical for me.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle has moved up, way up.
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 03:36:56 am »
Assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.
Gmail is not Autodesk.

Likely true. I did, to some extent. I decided to gain a lot of functionality with subscription and cloud software at the expense of the various risks of not controlling everything.

My overall costs went down. I no longer have dedicated servers, complex backups, large UPS's, and all the in-house software maintenance - all on top of the big $$ I was paying for software updates and upgrades. I have a small operation and was just overwhelmed with the IT costs, so I generally went with old, unsupported software running on old hardware. It is easy, and I have not been burned in quite a few years of being almost entirely cloud/subscription based.

Of course, it can all go sideways if Autodesk bizarrely decides to steal design data and simultaneously abandon cloud products. Technically possible, but the likelihood is so small it is not worth all the trouble and money I was burning in the traditional software 'ownership' scheme.

It would be bad and very disruptive if Autodesk abandoned Eagle or Fusion360 or Inventor or HSMworks for me - but the alternative is also disruptive. The aerospace company that I work for is a medium sized business and entirely operated on a cloud-based management system. It is far more capable than the previous in-house solution.

I am not an advocate either way - just saying that I weighed the options and decided the gains far outweigh the risks.
I'd probably worry most about buyouts by companies with a different goal in mind than supporting the product, or the company going bankrupt. We've already seen this happening to cloud services in real life and I think we'll see it happening more often when the magic of the cloud wears off a bit and companies need to survive based on their merits. We've run the numbers
 


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