Author Topic: Eagle will be part of Fusion360  (Read 28408 times)

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Offline ehughes

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Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« on: February 13, 2017, 02:28:49 pm »
Pure speculation at this point but I think EAGLE as a standalone product will be a thing of the past.    It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to read these tea leaves.  Not saying that this is a bad thing for those who do integrated design but my *guess* is that  you will soon be purchasing Fusion360, not EAGLE.

http://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/blog/fusion-forecast-dont-resist-current/
http://schnitgercorp.com/2016/06/29/autodesk-acquires-pcb-design-fusion-360/


I am willing to best a basket of chicken wings that the UI will be dumped(which is good news),   the guts will be thrown out(which is good news) and EAGLE will be simply a name for the ECAD component of Fusion360.    The internal architecture will *never*  work with an integrated tool as the current code base implements a system that is stove-piped *by design*.     The current method of move into the 3d space in EAGLE is an ugly hack and I can't see a large company like Autodesk having a tool that looks this primitive.   

 When it is all over,   I am guessing that you will have the the name EAGLE and the XML file format.     There is absolutely no way to sell EAGLE in its current form as an Autodesk product in the long term.   If I was a pointy haired boss,  I would probably be doing the same.   The "old customers" will go to KiCAD or Dip Trace regardless of what Autodesk does.    They are after competing with Dassault and fish with much bigger pocket books.   

I am not saying any of this is bad per say,  just that I can't see the old business strategy working in the long term.    Autodesk is about integrated product design.   EAGLE in its current form will never able to be part of that mission.

To them,  I say onward and upward.  We need better tools!   I am a Solidworks and Altium User but some healthy competition from Autodesk will be a very good thing.





 
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 03:54:29 pm »
I am willing to best a basket of chicken wings that the UI will be dumped(which is good news),   the guts will be thrown out(which is good news) and EAGLE will be simply a name for the ECAD component of Fusion360.

You think they paid £20 million for Cadsoft just for the "name"?

 

Offline janoc

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 04:11:01 pm »
Pure speculation at this point but I think EAGLE as a standalone product will be a thing of the past.    It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to read these tea leaves.  Not saying that this is a bad thing for those who do integrated design but my *guess* is that  you will soon be purchasing Fusion360, not EAGLE.

I am Fusion360 user for my tinkering and I don't believe such move would make any sense whatsoever. Perhaps Fusion will get some PCB import capability and Eagle gets better support for mechanical CAD, but otherwise those are completely different worlds and user bases. Few mechanical engineers need PCB design support (and even know how to design boards) and few EEs need a full blown mechanical CAD package - most need only import and export. Merging those two products wouldn't really help anyone. Ever heard about jack of all trades master of none?

Also Fusion is mostly an experimental "sandbox" for Autodesk for trying out new ideas and to have a foothold in the low end market but the real money is in AutoCAD and Inventor, not in Fusion360.
 

Offline ehughes

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 07:06:11 pm »
Quote
You think they paid £20 million for Cadsoft just for the "name"?

http://amigobulls.com/stocks/ADSK/income-statement/annual


For a name,  a starting point and an existing customer base  £20 million is a noise bit to them.   








 

Offline janekm

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 08:58:35 am »
Have a look at this page: http://www.autodesk.com/products

Notice anything? That's right, Autodesk aren't in the habit of retiring products if they have active users. They have Fusion 360 but Autocad isn't going anywhere.

I think they're hoping they can fix Eagle bit by bit (seems crazy to me too), but if not I think they would consider building a new product from the ground up using the experience from the Eagle team but as a new separate product that would try to gain new customers through new approaches and new licensing models. Seems like a bit of a challenge though even though compared to the mechanical CAD industry all PCB design software is embarrassingly bad.

I was actually quite disappointed that Autodesk bought Eagle, because I think if they had instead made an attempt to build a completely new tool from the ground up, in the vein of Fusion 360, it could have been something really interesting, taking some ideas from parametric CAD, design history, more "smarts" throughout.

Even autorouting would be interesting to have another look at... So far almost all autorouting algorithms are terrible because they are purely rules-based, but applying some of the recent advances in convolutional neural networks and reinforcement learning, effectively teaching the algorithm what good routing looks like (so it should learn what good decoupling looks like, or BGA fanout, good groundplane, etc) would be really interesting.

 

Offline janoc

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 09:23:28 am »
Even autorouting would be interesting to have another look at... So far almost all autorouting algorithms are terrible because they are purely rules-based, but applying some of the recent advances in convolutional neural networks and reinforcement learning, effectively teaching the algorithm what good routing looks like (so it should learn what good decoupling looks like, or BGA fanout, good groundplane, etc) would be really interesting.

I think that is a bit overly optimistic to expect from AutoDesk. That is not a company too known for innovation - most new things that came from them were thanks to acquisitions when they have bought out competitors. All their major products came to being like that, with maybe the exception of AutoCAD.

They also don't have any previous experience in EDA/PCB design. All their tools are about 3D modelling and mechanical CAD, that is what they are known for. So all such know-how would have to come from the Eagle team - and if those people had such abilities I think Eagle wouldn't be the PCB software known for its unusable crappy autorouter ...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:27:08 am by janoc »
 

Offline Josephine85

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 11:03:10 am »
Hey guys,

you can still purchase EAGLE licences on autodesk: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe.

Do you know of any changes on EAGLE already? i find the new presence is very neat, but i hope they keep the product.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 02:38:33 pm »
Hey guys,

you can still purchase EAGLE licences on autodesk: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe.

Do you know of any changes on EAGLE already? i find the new presence is very neat, but i hope they keep the product.

Did you miss the huge recent thread with the uproar when AutoDesk made Eagle subscription only, jacked up the price and now requires periodic online check-in? All after steadfastly denying they are going to do that only few months ago. That's why Eagle is a dead horse for many, even though it is still technically sold (err, rented).

The fact that people are abandoning it in droves because of this is not a sufficient change for you? Or maybe you are the exception to the rule that likes the new business model  :-//

« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 02:41:19 pm by janoc »
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2017, 06:54:36 am »
 

Online helius

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2017, 07:30:01 am »
Autodesk CEO Carl Bass: "The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment."
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2017, 09:52:32 am »
Even autorouting would be interesting to have another look at... So far almost all autorouting algorithms are terrible because they are purely rules-based, but applying some of the recent advances in convolutional neural networks and reinforcement learning, effectively teaching the algorithm what good routing looks like (so it should learn what good decoupling looks like, or BGA fanout, good groundplane, etc) would be really interesting.

I think that is a bit overly optimistic to expect from AutoDesk. That is not a company too known for innovation - most new things that came from them were thanks to acquisitions when they have bought out competitors. All their major products came to being like that, with maybe the exception of AutoCAD.

They also don't have any previous experience in EDA/PCB design. All their tools are about 3D modelling and mechanical CAD, that is what they are known for. So all such know-how would have to come from the Eagle team - and if those people had such abilities I think Eagle wouldn't be the PCB software known for its unusable crappy autorouter ...

Yes, I'm sure you're right. It's a bit of a pipe-dream... I look at the state of PCB design tools and all the major ones have source-base going back to DOS days. Must be horrific to work on. Like Altium which apparently is still in large part based on Delphi. I didn't even know Delphi still existed... Amusingly the example UI from the recent version of Delphi is basically the Altium UI: https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi (they must be the largest remaining customer...)

So I think there is an opportunity for Autodesk to take the Eagle team and move half of them to a team building a completely new EDA tool, and the other half onto maintenance of Eagle. I'm guessing that's more or less what they did for Fusion 360. But I have no reason to believe that's the plan (and it's looking like they're trying to add lipstick to the existing Eagle codebase instead...), and if they did we wouldn't hear about it for a few years until they have something to show...
 

Offline technolomaniac

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2017, 10:25:06 pm »
Eli, if I never told you you were insightful, let this be the first time.  And if we aimed to be coy in our strategy, we should have picked a name other than "Fusion" when we named the product.  ;). (They say the ship leaks from the top...so I guess I'm the guilty party).

Truth is, this is a direction we are extremely interested in and this was even announced (albeit a bit anecdotally) at Autodesk University this past year.  We (Autodesk) don't view these as separate processes any longer and my charter is in ensuring that we treat ECAD, MCAD & Manufacturing as all sides of the same coin. 

Curiously, I think Altium figured this out when they suddenly put Eagle and Altium Designer on the same footing by providing a massive discount to EAGLE users.  The fact is, it's only time & resources that creates the lead. 

Our goal at Autodesk goes beyond feature parity.  Sure, we know we need comprehensive solutions for routing, design reuse, hierarchy, libs, data management, mcad integration, etc. ...but there's SO much more we can do if we integrated these capabilities at some level.  And truth is, we have a bit of a blank slate insofar as we have a lot to build from, but a lot of "net-new" stuff to build.   It's a shame really, just trying to be patient long enough for this all to take place.

The question is, what happens to the $12K tool with $1250/yr maintenance when someone does the same thing for less than $1000?  And what if 80% of that is under $500?  Then what?  :). ...Game on.

Best regards,

Matt - Autodesk.
 

Offline timb

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Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2017, 01:31:34 am »
Eli, if I never told you you were insightful, let this be the first time.  And if we aimed to be coy in our strategy, we should have picked a name other than "Fusion" when we named the product.  ;). (They say the ship leaks from the top...so I guess I'm the guilty party).

Truth is, this is a direction we are extremely interested in and this was even announced (albeit a bit anecdotally) at Autodesk University this past year.  We (Autodesk) don't view these as separate processes any longer and my charter is in ensuring that we treat ECAD, MCAD & Manufacturing as all sides of the same coin. 

Curiously, I think Altium figured this out when they suddenly put Eagle and Altium Designer on the same footing by providing a massive discount to EAGLE users.  The fact is, it's only time & resources that creates the lead. 

Our goal at Autodesk goes beyond feature parity.  Sure, we know we need comprehensive solutions for routing, design reuse, hierarchy, libs, data management, mcad integration, etc. ...but there's SO much more we can do if we integrated these capabilities at some level.  And truth is, we have a bit of a blank slate insofar as we have a lot to build from, but a lot of "net-new" stuff to build.   It's a shame really, just trying to be patient long enough for this all to take place.

The question is, what happens to the $12K tool with $1250/yr maintenance when someone does the same thing for less than $1000?  And what if 80% of that is under $500?  Then what?  :). ...Game on.

Best regards,

Matt - Autodesk.

If have to rent it? Nothing, that's what happens. You guys are losing a huge chunk of the market by not having perpetual license. ;)

Seriously though, I'd say the vast majority of people that use EDA software want it to do two things well: Let us capture a schematic and layout a PCB. That's it. We don't need integrated FPGA tools, MCAD, MCU programming or the ability to toast bread.

We just want to layout circuit boards. If I want to do MCAD I can export my board as a STEP file and bring it into a 3D package. (That said, easy export with a leading CAD package wouldn't be a bad thing per say, but the majority of users don't need the actual MCAD functionality integrated into their EDA tools. I think Altium has proven that people don't want tons of disparate things bolted onto their EDA software.)

When you try to integrate everything under the sun into one package, it *always* ends up a huge, bloated mess. Functionality is likewise *rarely* better (or even close to) standalone packages.

Sure, there is a small percentage of users (large companies mostly) that could benefit from a streamlined ECAD-MCAD-Manufacturing package, but they're already using $100,000 packages that do this and you're not likely to break into that market for quite some time.

Why not stick to making Eagle a modern EDA tool first? And keep it simple, please. Engineers *hate it* when companies take otherwise good software and ruin it by bolting on everything plus the kitchen sink.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:34:50 am by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 
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Offline ehughes

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2017, 02:19:55 pm »
Matt:

he he he.

I can see where things are going and it looks promising.   

I know many here don't care for an integrated approach but I have been doing the export to STOP, import into Solidworks since Altium 1st allowed for STEP integration.   While it was a big step forward,     it is  static process.

Some other thoughts:

1.)    PCBs are a mechanical device with electrical design rules.     Any good PCB design starts at the solid modeling phase.   Having a tool that can go both directions seamlessly is a big deal.     There is quite a bit of back and forth when doing anything non-trivial.

2.)  STEP is a very bloated format.    I have assemblies that are several hundred megabytes without working very hard.    A unified tool working in the native 3D model format is where things need to go.   Working with non-trivial boards is difficult.    I generally use very accurate models which always pushes envelope.   (Pretty pictures sell new projects).

3.)   Exporting step and importing into another tool means you lose all of the parametric constraints/mates.     This is one aspect of PCB design that needs improved.   Parametric relationships between parts is where things need to go.

Altium/Dassault have a PCB tools that does some level of b-directional communication (it was branded PCBWorks) but I don't believe  you can get the plugin for the full version of Altium.

I will be curious (and patient) to see what you guys come with.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2017, 04:52:22 pm »
Our goal at Autodesk goes beyond feature parity.  Sure, we know we need comprehensive solutions for routing, design reuse, hierarchy, libs, data management, mcad integration, etc. ...but there's SO much more we can do if we integrated these capabilities at some level.  And truth is, we have a bit of a blank slate insofar as we have a lot to build from, but a lot of "net-new" stuff to build.   It's a shame really, just trying to be patient long enough for this all to take place.

Matt,
While you and us Eagle users are being patient, and waiting for all that magic to happen -- why can't Autodesk be patient too, and postpone the fleecing of Eagle users until you have something really strong to offer?
 
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2020, 08:03:57 am »
It has happened.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2020, 02:10:21 pm »
It has happened.

To be clear, it appears there is still a free tier for hobbyist use with an 80cm2 board size restriction. However, if you want to go beyond that board size you're stuck with a $495 USD a year subscription. Now, I don't have the old Cadsoft pricing archived but I'm pretty sure that less than $495 would have bought you a permanent (non-commercial) license for Eagle that would handle any size board.

Remember folks, Autodesk promised in July 2016 (on this board, in writing) that they weren't making Eagle subscription only, then by Jan the next year they did make it subscription only, and now they've effectively upped the price to $495 per annum for any user who can't live with a tiny board size - there appear to be no intermediate offers between "free for hobbyists on tiny boards" and "the full monty". As someone pointed out a while back, it seems that they just want to advertise the relative attractiveness of KiCad.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2020, 06:59:39 pm »
...
To be clear, it appears there is still a free tier for hobbyist use with an 80cm2 board size restriction. However, if you want to go beyond that board size you're stuck with a $495 USD a year subscription. Now, I don't have the old Cadsoft pricing archived but I'm pretty sure that less than $495 would have bought you a permanent (non-commercial) license for Eagle that would handle any size board.

Remember folks, Autodesk promised in July 2016 (on this board, in writing) that they weren't making Eagle subscription only, then by Jan the next year they did make it subscription only, and now they've effectively upped the price to $495 per annum for any user who can't live with a tiny board size - there appear to be no intermediate offers between "free for hobbyists on tiny boards" and "the full monty". As someone pointed out a while back, it seems that they just want to advertise the relative attractiveness of KiCad.
2014 pricing here:

  https://web.archive.org/web/20140911020927/http://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/

Their pricing did not vary much year-to-year, apart from small incremental increases.

New point releases were free.  Major releases (e.g. 6.x, 7.x) were not, but the price was discounted if you already had a license for the previous version.

I have a 1 user unlimited professional version with Layout + Schematic + Autorouter.  My last upgrade cost to get me to 7.1 in Dec 2014 was USD $549.  I skipped 7.0 because of the new Flexera licensing manager they put in, and then removed in 7.1 due to customer outcry.  I don't have records of what eagle originally cost when I purchased it in 2000 (I think it was vers 3.x and on the order of USD $1200).

The $549 major release recurring cost sounds like a bargain now, unlike the noise autodesk was making about what a great cost savings ALL users will experience with the subscription model.

Good riddance, eagle.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2020, 07:53:18 pm »
Actually this has turned out to be a nice deal for me. I already have an Eagle Standard subscription and with this change Autodesk has added Fusion 360 Commercial to my license.
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2020, 08:29:28 pm »
Also, eagle has always been supported on Linux.  All you Linux users should take note that Linux is NOT included as a supported platform for Fusion 360:

  https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/System-requirements-for-Autodesk-Fusion-360.html

Maybe something "off the menu" is offered for Linux eagle without incurring the full fusion subscription cost, or are Linux users just expected to pay $495 anyway and too bad?

Or, is this a sign of the end of Linux support? 
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2020, 08:33:24 pm »
Actually this has turned out to be a nice deal for me. I already have an Eagle Standard subscription and with this change Autodesk has added Fusion 360 Commercial to my license.

Just be sure to never let it lapse, or the Standard license will be gone forever.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2020, 08:44:13 pm »
Also, eagle has always been supported on Linux.  All you Linux users should take note that Linux is NOT included as a supported platform for Fusion 360:

  https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/System-requirements-for-Autodesk-Fusion-360.html

Maybe something "off the menu" is offered for Linux eagle without incurring the full fusion subscription cost, or are Linux users just expected to pay $495 anyway and too bad?

Or, is this a sign of the end of Linux support?

They're still two separate applications with different installers. I'd expect Eagle to work with Linux as long as Autodesk says it's supported.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2020, 08:45:27 pm »
Just be sure to never let it lapse, or the Standard license will be gone forever.

Yep, I'm aware of that.
 

Offline benst

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2020, 10:10:02 pm »
It's now also part of the Inventor / Product Design & Manufacturing suite, see screenshot of an email I received today. What's Eagle Premium? :o I'll have a look at it, but prob won't make use of it. (Recent convert from Ultiboard to KiCAD here.)

Ben
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Offline level6

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Re: Eagle will be part of Fusion360
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2020, 11:14:43 pm »
What's Eagle Premium? :o I'll have a look at it, but prob won't make use of it. (Recent convert from Ultiboard to KiCAD here.)

Ben

Eagle Premium is Eagle with no restrictions on layers, schematic sheets, or PCB size.
 
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