Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 126895 times)

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Offline madires

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #175 on: January 22, 2017, 01:11:16 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Sadly, some will go that route. I'll keep V7 in a VM and move to KiCad, since I've already done one project with KiCad in wise foresight. This could be also a good opportunety for businesses to sponsor KiCad to improve the UI and to add new features. Might prove a better return on investment on the long term than paying more and more for subscriptions.
 

Offline EBRAddict

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #176 on: January 22, 2017, 01:19:20 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #177 on: January 22, 2017, 01:37:25 pm »
Did they migrate the V8 to Qt? I noticed they included all the dll's and didn't do a static link, which would indicate they are using the GPL version of Qt.
Meaning the source of eagle can be requested?
 

Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #178 on: January 22, 2017, 02:54:07 pm »
Did they migrate the V8 to Qt? I noticed they included all the dll's and didn't do a static link, which would indicate they are using the GPL version of Qt.
Meaning the source of eagle can be requested?

What exactly makes you think Cadsoft hasn't bought a commercial Qt license?

As far as I know, they do have a commercial Qt license.

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Offline SeanB

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #179 on: January 22, 2017, 03:57:07 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #180 on: January 22, 2017, 05:16:04 pm »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

Microsoft is shedding staff. About half due to bad phone decisions, but revenue is certainly a consideration for the rest. It always is.

The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 05:24:45 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline EBRAddict

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #181 on: January 22, 2017, 05:16:25 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.

He said patched, not hacked/cracked, so I assumed he was talking about legit patches.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #182 on: January 22, 2017, 10:27:17 pm »
Don't forget the time and thus money it will take to go to another softwarepackage.
I personally think that people will stick with their old perpetual version till they really can not anymore, such as that the OS does not run it properly anymore.
One thing all Eagle users are already used to is that it does not have state of the art tech, there were not many valuable updates or significant improvements, so the current version can stil last a decade. Time enough to slowly transfer somewhere else, leaving Autodesk with no customers and no income.
Another good point. PCB software has little need to be updated to be useable - PCBs today are no different to PCBs 10 years ago except possibly in scale. I still use a 10 year old package and there isn't much I find lacking, certainly not enough to invest time in learning a whole new package.
3D integration is about the only major thing that has happened in the PCB market in recent years, and many users can happily live without it.

It's hard to see what Autodesk could do in the way of new features on top of the baggage they've inherited to make it attractive enough to new users for them to invest in it.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. 

As a *regular* user (and I'm talking nearly daily here even though I don't do PCB layout for a living per-se), there is a *huge* amount of usability improvements that Eagle can most definitely use which would improve the experience in it for both new *and* existing users. 

So ... ongoing development of PCB software is something that *is* needed.  Take the most obvious example ... Auto-routers - there is not a single vendor on the planet that has got that one even close to right (some are considerably better than others, but when you get down to it ... pretty much all of them are "meh"). 

... and this is for *all* packages, not just Eagle (I'm talking Altium, KiCAD and so on).  So, an ongoing business model where a company *can* afford to continue to develop a product *is* needed.  The subscription model sort of does that, but the issue at hand is that Autodesk in this case of forcing subscription to be not just for "updates", but for continued use. 

dbVisualiser (a DB access/management package) has a update subscription model where you get updates while you have a valid subscription, but it doesn't stop allowing you to use the product if you let your subscription lapse, and it certainly doesn't require that you have a permanent internet connection to keep it "activated" - and that's the part where I think Autodesk have seriously screwed up. 


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Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #183 on: January 22, 2017, 10:38:54 pm »
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't

Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I think you would be surprised. 

Anyone who has had *anything* to do with lawyers usually gets real nervous around these things.  My suspicion in regard to the EULA restrictions, is that the basic "requirements" are such show stoppers that you don't need to go to the EULA (at least it did for me - always connected ... *fail* ... do not pass go, do not collect *any* $$$). 

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Offline Wilksey

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #184 on: January 22, 2017, 11:43:28 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.

He said patched, not hacked/cracked, so I assumed he was talking about legit patches.
Not that I would post anything of such here, there is one "legit" patch available that will remove the registration requirement, permanently from the software, but it still runs as freeware, so you have the limitations still, which keeps the software legit.

The other, isn't legit, I do have access to such but I was pointing out that for all of the hassle this new licensing crap has injected into people it took someone all of a few hours (if that) to remove it.

And to be "clear" the patches are not made by Autodesk, so they are not official.

I don't advise people to go and get a dodgy version, and I have access to a licensed V7.7 for work, I do suspect that they would however be forcing more people (wanting V8) to move to piracy. For me, there isn't enough value to move to 8 at the moment.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 11:46:13 pm by Wilksey »
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #185 on: January 22, 2017, 11:54:53 pm »
The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.

"It is what good people want for their employees"

That is one seriously generous interpretation to put on these changes.

Me. I'm not nearly so charitable. I won't go so far as condemning them as greedy scumbags. Yet.

Ever picked people to lay off during one of tech's all too regular bust cycles?  I have. It's miserable and leaves most decent people guilt-ridden afterwards. We hope to never do it again. Leveling out the revenue cycle has major benefits to employee job stability, and the employer and/or shareholder, as you correctly point out.

There are problems with software as a service.  I don't think many of the problems are as dire as what is presented here.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #186 on: January 22, 2017, 11:55:18 pm »
I don't think we can depend on info about this from any blogs or forums anymore. The story coming out via online discussion with Eagle reps is not consistent, it changes depending on how convenient the story is. Don't believe any promises that aren't backed up by changes in the license or other official announcements from Autodesk.

Autodesk rep unsure if subscription Eagle 8 is a major version upgrade or not:

Response to a recent purchaser asking whether they will get maintenance updates for Eagle 7.7:
Quote
We have always provided support for major releases. We provided support for version 6 until version 7 came out. We provide support for version 7 until version 8 comes out. This doesn’t prevent you from using the user forums (all of which we host) and receiving replies either from the support teams or fellow users as necessary.


Response to concern about a license clause about Eagle upgrades invalidating earlier licenses:
Quote
This is completely inaccurate but I appreciate you bringing it up, so we can tease out just what this means. When you purchased a previous license, you did so under a Cadsoft license agreement. We have no authority or interest in doing anything to that license as it was a different legal framework by which you made that agreement. Under subscription, there is no “major” release and thus that clause would never apply ...i.e. version 8.0 of EAGLE is only a version number for convenience...as we move forward, this is just EAGLE and there is no major “Upgrade” like there was in the past, thus nothing to force anyone to stop using an older license.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #187 on: January 23, 2017, 02:00:33 am »
The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.

"It is what good people want for their employees"

That is one seriously generous interpretation to put on these changes.

Me. I'm not nearly so charitable. I won't go so far as condemning them as greedy scumbags. Yet.

Ever picked people to lay off during one of tech's all too regular bust cycles?  I have. It's miserable and leaves most decent people guilt-ridden afterwards. We hope to never do it again. Leveling out the revenue cycle has major benefits to employee job stability, and the employer and/or shareholder, as you correctly point out.

There are problems with software as a service.  I don't think many of the problems are as dire as what is presented here.

I have been there too.  It sucks.  But if you aren't providing value consistent with costs you will be laying people off sooner or later.  Maybe all of them, forever.  Look at the magazine and newspaper industries as examples of subscription services that outlasted their value.

Looking at how Autodesk has worked in other fields I would look for two things.  First, very limited low cost student versions, requiring student ID.  The sole reason for these would be to get students "hooked" on the software, thereby supporting future commercial sales.  They won't have any interest in the hobby market since the transition to future full boat licenses is not clear.  Second, I would expect it to become much more tightly integrated with the rest of their product line, perhaps even being a module to be added to the base CAD software.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2017, 06:22:54 am »
I'm going to disagree with you on this one. 

As a *regular* user (and I'm talking nearly daily here even though I don't do PCB layout for a living per-se), there is a *huge* amount of usability improvements that Eagle can most definitely use which would improve the experience in it for both new *and* existing users. 

So ... ongoing development of PCB software is something that *is* needed.  Take the most obvious example ... Auto-routers - there is not a single vendor on the planet that has got that one even close to right (some are considerably better than others, but when you get down to it ... pretty much all of them are "meh"). 

... and this is for *all* packages, not just Eagle (I'm talking Altium, KiCAD and so on).
I don't get your point. You have NOT gotten any of those improvements from Eagle for the last 6 years or so, still you stayed, proof that you do not need those improvements which was our point.

Second you want autorouter improvements but make the point yourself no-one has it or can deliver. We probably have to wait for AI to improve and be integrated in cad packages for that to happen.

So what you will end up is, a steep monthly licensing bill with some but without the real improvements you want, or seek, well good luck to you. You might consider switching to Altium and you will have all the improvements starting tomorrow, with the same monthly bill ofcourse.
 

Offline madires

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2017, 10:56:37 am »
I don't think we can depend on info about this from any blogs or forums anymore. The story coming out via online discussion with Eagle reps is not consistent, it changes depending on how convenient the story is. Don't believe any promises that aren't backed up by changes in the license or other official announcements from Autodesk.

Like moving from "no subscriptions" half a year ago to "subscriptions only" today.
 

Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2017, 02:54:16 pm »

The flaw with this reasoning is that Eagle is not currently a class-leading tool. Its niche has been the maker/small business space, and its customers have neither the need nor the financial means to afford a best-in-class tool.

I think this is the key problem. I've not used Eagle but my understanding is its main attractive feature is being free, and people only buy the non-free version because it's what they know.
So where 's the ongoing future market ?
Anyone starting out from scratch (or deciding how to transition form Free Eagle) is probably going to take a very hard look at Kicad and alternatives like Designspark, Diptrace etc. I've not used Kicad but seeing what people have done with it, it must be pretty useable and it can only get better.
Many existing paying Eagle users will probably subscribe.
Unless they do some very major improvements to make it much more attractive to new users than Kicad, I think they have a rather stagnant and diminishing user base.

Question for people who have used a reasonable number of PCB packages - given a choice based purely on UI and features, not price, how many would choose Eagle?
...

I've been meaning to reply to this for a couple of days because I meet the criteria you've outlined: I've used several PCB/EDA packages over the years but the small company I joined in late '08 couldn't afford what I was using as an independent design engineer (Labcenter Electronics' Proteus) and EAGLE "Professional" was the best of a crappy lot.

At this point I am fairly proficient at EAGLE, but I can't say I like it, and despite many improvements from v5.x to v7.x it is still riddled with annoying problems and quirks that make using it needlessly inefficient. If CAD/EDA is a religion then I guess I am an apostate, because I would totally jump ship given sufficient nudging.

In fact, I seriously balked at the $500 they wanted to upgrade from v6.x to v7.x, and only did so because v7.x finally added trace length matching and meanders to board layout (and I have to admit the library management was improved immensely).

This new subscription model, though, is asking for $500 every year - rather than every couple of years, as it was effectively costing me before - and stops working 14 days after failing to pay the subscription. Whether the pricing is fair or not I leave up to the individual to decide - I personally don't feel EAGLE is anywhere close to polished/productive/functional enough to warrant $500 per year - but for it to stop working if I don't pay the protection racket (ie - Autodesk) is unacceptable. That somewhere buried in the EULA is a clause that Autodesk can transfer my IP to other jurisdictions without my express consent would also be unacceptable, except I'm not going to "upgrade" to v8, so it is irrelevant.

So now I am watching the "Getting to blinky 4.0" series of videos on YouTube and taking a serious look at Kicad; so far it appears to be much improved from the last time I considered it (ie - when EAGLE came soliciting for the upgrade to v7.x).


 

Offline KoningTosti

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2017, 03:40:04 pm »
I tried it today, and after opening a v7.7 project I tried out the new router. It crashed immediately after I placed the wire.  :palm: Second try it did worked, but I'm not too impressed. Something else I was looking forward to was the 3D implementation. This is a online only thing, too bad eagle. It's their loss.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #192 on: January 23, 2017, 05:39:49 pm »
Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to inform everyone of some good news. The standard will be receiving 4 layers starting with the next update. Read more about it here:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #193 on: January 23, 2017, 05:54:15 pm »
Hello Everyone,

I just got some clarification about this:

From the AutoDESK Licensing URL provided by Jorge...

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html

From 1.2.1 ... quoted below:

1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.



This doesn't apply to V7.7 or prior of EAGLE. Technically, Autodesk EAGLE is not an upgrade it is a brand new product. Therefore the above clause does not apply. The intent of this clause originally is in the case where previously Autodesk provided perpetual licenses, so if someone went for feature limited AutoCAD version and then bought a full version of AutoCAD then this clause would come into play and they had to uninstall the feature limited version.

As far as the future is concerned, the clause also doesn't apply because under the subscription model there are no upgrades. As long as you pay your subscription you always have the latest and greatest software.

So to summarize, Autodesk EAGLE is considered a new product does not influence previous Cadsoft EAGLE releases, therefore the above clause doesn't apply. Going forward new updates to Autodesk EAGLE aren't considered upgrades so the clause still doesn't apply. Keep in mind that Autodesk still has some perpetual customers from prior to the transition and this agreement is used with ALL of Autodesk software. For each application not all of it may apply.

As always legalese is legalese so I'm not surprised by the concern.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia,
Autodesk Support
 

Offline macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #194 on: January 23, 2017, 05:58:24 pm »
Jorge, since Eagle 8 is now considered a brand new product, does this mean that Eagle 7 will continue to receive customer support and bugfix releases as promised?
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #195 on: January 23, 2017, 05:59:06 pm »
Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to inform everyone of some good news. The standard will be receiving 4 layers starting with the next update. Read more about it here:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

Jorge,

That is huge.  Thanks for the update.   :-+
 

Offline madires

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #196 on: January 23, 2017, 05:59:55 pm »
Some small steps in the right direction. Still, the subscription is the showstopper.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #197 on: January 23, 2017, 06:18:50 pm »
Jorge, since Eagle 8 is now considered a brand new product, does this mean that Eagle 7 will continue to receive customer support and bugfix releases as promised?

Hi Garrett,

Nice to hear from you again, I just wanted to apologize for my "that was cold" comment on the hack-chat last week. I was out of line on that one, it had been a rough couple of days and it had gotten to me. I'm sorry.

As to your question yes, we will continue to support. If you call the phone line I will still answer and so will Ed.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline calexanian

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #198 on: January 23, 2017, 06:35:17 pm »
After considering some of the clarifications and that the new version does not "Nuke" your old version I have come to terms with this move, however. As a company we have decided to simply stay with our older version. It suits our needs and we anticipate it will continue to do so for several years for our in house designs. We are giving our out house developers the option of us reimbursing them for a single year licence, then in subsequent years if we need work done we will re up for a month to do whatever we need done, or they can change to KiCad or Autotrax or stay with the version 6 variant Eagle we all already have. Most of them are going for the KiCad option or just stay with their version 6 variant Eagle. Nobody has shown any interest in upgrading in our camp, so its really a non issue. We really did not want anything Net tethered anyways. Its not hard and fast rule for us, but since it will not be an issue with the packages our people use I will not worry about it. As for other companies who do have Itar requirements or other closed network requirements and do not have the capital for more expensive packages you can always go back to Autotrax or Dip Trace.

As for hobby use or micro companies I will now recommend KiCad. Its just they way the world is moving. As far as Autodesk, I say good luck. I hope you find a market and do well, but I do not foresee our company buying in anytime soon. 
Charles Alexanian
Alex-Tronix Control Systems
 

Offline macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #199 on: January 23, 2017, 06:37:16 pm »
Jorge, don't worry about that on the Hack Chat. I was not offended in any way. And pointing out that KiCAD will have an influx of new users is certainly cold, but we're both in this business to get things done. I'm going to look at things as objectively as possible, and make practical decisions based on what works for my business. Yes, I feel nostalgia for all years I've used Eagle. But I'm going to be cold about business decisions, I have to make the right choices and the new subscription model isn't acceptable. Circuit Studio, for example, appears to do it right; they have an internet-tied activation and a subscription model. But the license is perpetual and based on a keyfile that is transferred to your local computer, and the subscription provides access to updated Altium libraries and maintenance upgrades. If your subscription lapses you can still use the software.

That brings me back to the second part of my question which you did not answer: will Eagle 7 continue to receive maintenance upgrades. If not, will Autodesk be releasing a statement that Eagle 7 is now end-of-life, and provide refunds to anyone who just purchased it? According to your statement, Eagle 8 is a new product and therefore doesn't count as a major release within the scope of the Eagle 7 product, so you will need to provide a reason for no longer maintaining Eagle 7.

I'd really like a bugfix to the Mac OS crash on pan/zoom....

Edit: I'd like to clarify that I purchased Eagle 7 long ago and don't expect any sort of refund. I'm asking on behalf of people who just recently purchased Eagle 7 with the promise of support and upgrades until the next major release, which you say has not happened for Eagle 7 yet.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 06:59:46 pm by macegr »
 


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