Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 133121 times)

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Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #275 on: January 25, 2017, 10:34:43 pm »

I was using KiCad since 2003. Six month ago I wanted to switch to Eagle becorse of the stable maintenance and software stability.
Now KiCad has a nice stable new release from CERN and Eagle has subscription.

My decision was false and I need to find a new solution to protect my small busines from risks Autodesk might add.
I can neither invest time nor money in Eagle at the moment.

Right now my feeling is open software is the most reliable solution for busines.

I did not find real differences in the functionality of KiCAD and Eagle. The manual router of KiCAD might be a little advanced over Eagle and Eagle is a bit more stable in general. If you use many different software packages you will not find differences in usability of Eagle and KiCAD. The differential pair routing of Eagle is not usable for me. The meander function of Eagle is verry nice. KiCAD has a 3D board viewer and a Gerber viewer as well.

May be I will give circuit studio a try.
 

Offline timb

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #276 on: January 26, 2017, 11:13:40 am »
Right now my feeling is open software is the most reliable solution for busines.

Just because it is open doesn't necessarily mean it will always be available. Unless of course you can do all the development yourself. But at least the copy you use now you can always continue to use. But only if you also keep the rest of your machine as well. Someone who archived a design in 2000 done on W98 will be UpSC is they also need W98 to use the software they used back then.

So for long term archiving and backward compatibility you  might need to keep an old PC or a VM. And a VM has its own requirements so it could get awfully recursive.

VMs should be usable on any future x86 platform, as most workstation class VM software creates a flat hard disk image file for each VM. That file is the equivalent of taking a real, physical hard disk and using 'dd' to image it to a file. So, I should be able to move it between VMWare, Parallels, Virtual PC, Bochs, Qemu, etc. at will (and in fact, for the most part, you can).

If tomorrow ARM suddenly took over the PC market and Intel stopped making the x86, there's always Qemu (and I'm sure VMWare would have a solution, as would Microsoft and likely Apple).

So, as long as you have a VM or hard drive image of the OS, software and files you need, they should be useable 10 years from now.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #277 on: January 26, 2017, 11:53:21 am »
Just because it is open doesn't necessarily mean it will always be available.
But it has a far higher chance than anything closed, as much more power is in the hands of the users.
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Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #278 on: January 26, 2017, 12:33:05 pm »
Just thinking...

Rumours say that Cadsoft has been sold for 30 million.
If 30,000 SME's donate $1000.= they can buy it and open-source it.
They can use it forever and modify it if they want.

Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #279 on: January 26, 2017, 01:12:00 pm »
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.
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Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #280 on: January 26, 2017, 01:58:24 pm »
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.
 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #281 on: January 26, 2017, 02:14:46 pm »
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.

Or sunset it... they've been known to do that too... Autodesk strikes me as having a monopolistic business model, and now they're going after the ecad market. I doubt they'll be willing to part with whatever IP they got in this sale.

Even if they do put it up for sale, would it be worth it? We already have KiCad that is 100% free, and I don't think the feature difference between the two adds up to $30MM. You could probably throw that money at developers instead and end up with KiCad far surpassing what Eagle offers.

Also, CadSoft is a business with employees. What happens to them if you try to open source the whole thing?
 

Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #282 on: January 26, 2017, 02:46:30 pm »
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.

Or sunset it... they've been known to do that too... Autodesk strikes me as having a monopolistic business model, and now they're going after the ecad market. I doubt they'll be willing to part with whatever IP they got in this sale.

Even if they do put it up for sale, would it be worth it? We already have KiCad that is 100% free, and I don't think the feature difference between the two adds up to $30MM. You could probably throw that money at developers instead and end up with KiCad far surpassing what Eagle offers.

Yes, it would be worth for companies to pay a one time fee of 1000,= to avoid the need to learn another package and create new libraries.
In addition, they could profit from free future modifications done either by the community or by themselves.
Neither they have to pay anymore for new licenses in case they start to hire more engineers.

Also, CadSoft is a business with employees. What happens to them if you try to open source the whole thing?

They will be without a job. But that was the risk they took when they (or the owner) decided to sell their private company to farnell.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #283 on: January 26, 2017, 04:37:16 pm »
Rumours say that Cadsoft has been sold for 30 million.
If 30,000 SME's donate $1000.= they can buy it and open-source it.
They can use it forever and modify it if they want.

Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

Tandy has already pointed out that Eagle is not for sale. Yes, this might change in the future, but certainly not half a year after Autodesk bought it. Don't overestimate the impact a handful of annoyed users moaning to each other on a forum will have on Autodesk's management...  ;)

Also, the 30.000 SMEs which you assumed for the buyout seem like a tall order. Here's a report dating 7 years back, when CadSoft was sold to Farnell. (Sorry, in German.) They stated that they had sold 40.000 licenses at that time, which probably includes the Hobbyist licenses and all dormant licenses sold a long time ago. Which would mean that they had much less than 40.000 active, commercial users back then -- let's be generous and guess 20.000.

http://www.elektroniknet.de/halbleiter/cadsoft-wie-es-weitergehen-soll-23896.html

If we assume that the number of new users in the years since has roughly balanced the number of users abandoning Eagle, they are still hovering around that number of active commercial users. I don't see that limited group coming up with the money to buy out Eagle anytime soon...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 04:46:17 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #284 on: January 26, 2017, 05:02:54 pm »
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.
 
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Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #285 on: January 26, 2017, 05:06:52 pm »
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #286 on: January 26, 2017, 06:43:53 pm »
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.

I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect CAD tool which no one will bitch about for the workflow. I myself am looking at having to learn a new workflow and dealing with libraries which are useless going forward. But I do have a goal of producing boards down the road, so I can complete projects. I have a finite budget. The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #287 on: January 26, 2017, 07:21:51 pm »
The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.

Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

If servers go down, Autodesk has to fix it. If there's a bug in EAGLE that is affecting your work, Autodesk has to fix it. If you have a complaint or issue, Autodesk has to listen to it and do it's best to correct it. If you have a suggestions, Autodesk has to listen and determine if it's worthwhile if it is then Autodesk has to implement it(Autodesk has idea boards, if a given idea gets enough votes it has to be implemented. We don't have them yet because we are new). That's why you pay for the software if you choose to use it, because there is someone you can contact and have an expectation of service and attention.

That's why I'm here to answer questions and do my best to help. Now let's repeat the above scenario with Kicad.

If servers go down, hope someone saved the last release and can get it to you, or try to reach one of the developers, or hope that the internet archive backed it up, etc. If there is a bug in KiCAD that is affecting your work, hope a developer gets to it quickly or get your hands dirty or hire someone or just deal with it as best you can. If you have a complaint or issue, post to a forum and hope someone is nice enough to listen or that perhaps a developer will be able to address your issue when he has time. The current project lead for the KiCAD project Wayne Stombaugh works part time on KiCAD and he's the project lead(I'm might be mistaken but I believe that is his title). If you have suggestions, post it to a forum and hope that a developer likes it and will take the time to implement it.

The above has nothing to do with the capabilities of the tools, just the realities of how the two projects are run. Everything has it's pros and it's cons, there is no silver bullet or free lunch. As a business owner it's your responsibility to make decisions about what tool is best for your business however it's important to be informed and to take all of the factors into account. By saying that Autodesk has no responsibility I think you neglected the above points and felt compelled to bring them to your attention.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #288 on: January 26, 2017, 07:42:35 pm »
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.

So add it? Consider a team of 20 full time software developers over a period of say 5 years, what feature available in Eagle could not be added to KiCad over that time? How many tools could be developed to convert libraries and designs from one to the other? I don't think raising $30M is realistic but if it were, I can think of better uses for it than buying Eagle.

Yes the workflow of KiCad is a bit crap. So is the workflow of Eagle, and every other EDA. I tried a bunch of them and they all suck, they're all buggy, they all have quirks and bone-headed design decisions. We just get used to whatever one we decide to use and stop noticing all the issues. I've used Eagle enough to say that there's nothing really special about it, it's a capable product that has achieved success in the hobbyist, pro-sumer and small business field due to the fact that it is or was an order of magnitude cheaper than the serious CAD packages. It's certainly not as powerful as Altium or the other big boys but those are far from affordable unless your employer pays for them.
 

Online Wilksey

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #289 on: January 26, 2017, 08:44:31 pm »
Sorry,  :rant:

For me, EAGLE 8.0 (released by Autodesk or someone else, it's still Version 8.0) has no significant improvements over 7.7, and it is still missing some key features, and I should imagine that there will be bugs to come with these new features, KiCAD has had several iterations to improve their bugs of the likes of the P+ S router, and they have improved it, version 7 had updates to the library, and something updated with the autorouter apparently (I don't use it), and the changes to the library system were a slight improvement, not saying other CAD packages are perfect by a long shot, I adapted to the way EAGLE worked prior to V7, even back on V5 it was perfectly usable, the thing that gets me, regardless of upgrade discount etc, is why would you want to pay as much in 2 or 3 years for software that you used to pay for once and use forever, and it is the same software, regardless of a few tweaks and features, I think Cadsoft used to charge a small fee for major upgrades, Autodesk are trying to force the hand of people who spent years using the older versions and maintaining their own templates and libraries for the tool.  I have a feeling that the file format will change at some point stopping backwards compatibility with V7 and before to try and forcefully make people upgrade to the new version.

If you want a subscription model, then fine, but at least allow the poor folk who already own their perpetual licenses have an upgrade path, charge for a perpetual license with 1 years support, or offer a subscription for app and support, and perhaps you can even have a separate subscription for support, but charge a nominal fee for a major version upgrade.

It's not rocket science, buy and large Autodesk are just making people feel like they have been shafted royally!
Remove that silly need to "re-authenticate" after 14 days, if the subscription is yearly, once a year should be plenty!  If it's perpetual, never.

I guess time will tell if Autodesk are worth their salt if they actually listen to what the users of the product want rather than try and force what clearly a very small percentage are happy to accept!
 :rant: Over.
 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #290 on: January 26, 2017, 08:49:02 pm »
The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.

Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

If servers go down, Autodesk has to fix it. If there's a bug in EAGLE that is affecting your work, Autodesk has to fix it. If you have a complaint or issue, Autodesk has to listen to it and do it's best to correct it. If you have a suggestions, Autodesk has to listen and determine if it's worthwhile if it is then Autodesk has to implement it(Autodesk has idea boards, if a given idea gets enough votes it has to be implemented. We don't have them yet because we are new). That's why you pay for the software if you choose to use it, because there is someone you can contact and have an expectation of service and attention.

[...]

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

I'm not trying to pick a fight either, but the burden of proof is on you, not us. I can't help thinking: "go tell that to Softimage users". The fact is that there is absolutely nothing that guarantees Autodesk is going to follow through on any of the promises you just made just like there wasn't anything that guaranteed Autodesk's promise that Eagle wasn't going to go to a subscription model or that the future was "bright" for Softimage.

In short: your words aren't good enough. Unless Autodesk is willing to commit to a legally binding, long term service contract, there actually isn't anything that says you "have to fix it". You might fix it, sure, but you are only going to do that if it benefits you. We don't actually enter the equation.

Your points about KiCad support aren't wrong, but the issue is more about completely losing access to the tool. If KiCad's servers go down, the software I have on my personal machine continues to function; the installer that I backed up to my file server can still get me up and running on a new machine. With KiCad, I have the power to ensure my tool continues to function. That is what we are looking for, and that is exactly what your licensing scheme denies us.
 
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Offline XFDDesign

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #291 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:18 pm »
Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

Responsibility means to have a consequence for a chosen act. Suppose I were to go with the subscription system and the servers go down for a long period of time. It is highly doubtful that there will be a monetary cost to Autodesk which compensates a company for down time. Or, suppose Autodesk axes Eagle and it just goes EOL. There are no mechanisms which prevent them from repeating the Softimage event, which leaves the customers high and dry. No form of compensation to be had because that would be suicidal for any business to be bound to a customer by product. If the product was making the business tank, there is no 'win' situation. That kind of awful dependence is toxic to a business' health, which is why it's just as toxic to any customer. The customer is being made to be dependent on Autodesk, but there is no longer a consequence for them producing a crap product. "Don't like it? Better migrate to some other package." No accountability at all in the subscription model. This isn't producing the best product possible, that I want to keep buying. It is making a product that I have to keep buying. I've had my fill of that with the ACA. Eagle's biggest change to version 7 was new icons. That didn't help me, so I stopped upgrading at v 6.6. If they did something additionally beneficial in version 8 (supposing it stayed cadsoft), I could then pay for an upgrade. If version 8 had some improvements, but it became as stable as Altium, they bear responsibility to themselves by having the consequence if my not paying for it. A healthy risk-reward system. The new model is only a reward system. Autodesk spits out version 8 and it has 1 bug. 9 comes out and it has 2. 10 and it's 4, and so on. Each version presents the dilemma: Suck it up, or move. The longer you stay hooked, and the worse the package gets, the more you've spent into a product that you're constantly evaluating whether or not you should abandon it. The essence of the matter is, really, Autodesk doesn't have to do anything. Any choice they do which might impact me, they can do without concern. My option is to go to another package, or keep paying. Now it's the same kind of issue a junkie has: they can either keep going with the addiction, or they try to come clean and deal with the withdrawals. The example may be dramatic, but it is to the point.

When it's a standalone product, "this is what I have." If there is a bug, "this is what I have." If the company who sold the product wants to maintain a customer base, they fix those bugs and the mutual relationship continues. But further, when it's a standalone product and the supplier goes out of business entirely or just terminates the product line completely, "this is what I have." I still have it. It is a clear exchange and trade.


I'm not trying to pick a fight either, but the burden of proof is on you, not us. I can't help thinking: "go tell that to Softimage users". The fact is that there is absolutely nothing that guarantees Autodesk is going to follow through on any of the promises you just made just like there wasn't anything that guaranteed Autodesk's promise that Eagle wasn't going to go to a subscription model or that the future was "bright" for Softimage.

In short: your words aren't good enough. Unless Autodesk is willing to commit to a legally binding, long term service contract, there actually isn't anything that says you "have to fix it". You might fix it, sure, but you are only going to do that if it benefits you. We don't actually enter the equation.

Your points about KiCad support aren't wrong, but the issue is more about completely losing access to the tool. If KiCad's servers go down, the software I have on my personal machine continues to function; the installer that I backed up to my file server can still get me up and running on a new machine. With KiCad, I have the power to ensure my tool continues to function. That is what we are looking for, and that is exactly what your licensing scheme denies us.

If that article on softimage is anything to go on, the guy is being put into a shitty situation to be chewed up and eventually spat out. I don't think there is a way for him to win here.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:55:49 pm by XFDDesign »
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #292 on: January 26, 2017, 10:59:01 pm »

If that article on softimage is anything to go on, the guy is being put into a shitty situation to be chewed up and eventually spat out. I don't think there is a way for him to win here.

Hi XFDDesign,

In that article, the guy mentions that he changed industries years ago. In other words, he has no skin in the game which is a very comfortable position for a person to rant from. It also means that he already won, so I don't think we need to worry about him.

With that said, you are correct the burden of proof lies with Autodesk. At this point I think the passage of time will be the only way to clear doubts. Some on this forum have already mentioned that they will be holding on their previous versions of EAGLE to see what Autodesk does, I respect that position and hopefully as the months go by there will be enough "proof" to settle some of these fears.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk
Thanks for the feedback
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #293 on: January 27, 2017, 12:24:49 am »
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #294 on: January 27, 2017, 12:27:04 am »

In that article, the guy mentions that he changed industries years ago. In other words, he has no skin in the game which is a very comfortable position for a person to rant from. It also means that he already won, so I don't think we need to worry about him.

I was mostly referring to the people Autodesk put in your role. They use your credibility up, and then push you out the door.  :-\
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #295 on: January 27, 2017, 01:19:07 am »
The only question is whether a .gif of Baghdad Bob or Sean Spicer would be more effective at conveying the analogy.  :-\
 

Offline macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #296 on: January 27, 2017, 03:20:15 am »
"Autodesk has a responsibility to do these normal software support things"

Sure, that's the way things work. While things are going right.

We're talking about what happens when things go wrong. We're engineers, some people think we're pessimistic for poking holes in something before accepting it as a sound solution, but that's what we do by definition.

The internet-tethered license is huge hole. It's like designing a PCB with a non-keyed power connector and no polarity protection. You could promise yourself that you'll be careful, you'll always plug it in the right way, but eventually it's going to release the magic smoke.

You can't build up trust over time with something like that. We all know that it's just a matter of time before Autodesk drops Eagle and shuts down the servers. We're only haggling over how long that is.
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #297 on: January 27, 2017, 04:53:35 am »
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

I would sign up in a second.
Factory400 - the worlds smallest factory. https://www.youtube.com/c/Factory400
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #298 on: January 27, 2017, 06:04:56 am »
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...
While reading this thread I was just thinking whether any Eagle CAD competitor has already come up with some special offer or PR campaign.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #299 on: January 27, 2017, 10:12:07 am »
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

It might be, but only for taking away Windows based users. With EAGLE being a lot more in the maker/hacker space I suspect a reasonable proportion of those users will be on Linux. For me personally (for professional work) it's Mac for my main design work and Linux for the PC on my lab bench so Altium wouldn't work for me. I suspect even with a drastic price cut Altium would still be way out of the price range of most EAGLE users though.

I think as many have already said, the main beneficiary of the fallout will be KiCAD and it'll likely get a lot of additional funds donated by disgruntled EAGLE users taking their subscription money and donating to KiCAD in protest. Whilst I will stick with EAGLE as I like it and have a lot of time invested in it, and I do believe there will be more coming from Autodesk to help solve these issues, I can't really fault people for taking this stance and having a very capable alternative to EAGLE which is a real competitor to EAGLE (Cadence/Altium/Mentor are in a league of their own in terms of features) could be good for EAGLE as it will force Autodesk to push ahead of KiCAD in terms of functionality or bleed users.

Just my 2p worth....

Rachael
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 10:14:14 am by rachaelp »
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 
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