Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 139328 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5967
  • Country: nl
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #350 on: February 02, 2017, 05:02:30 pm »
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3681
  • Country: de
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #351 on: February 02, 2017, 05:32:09 pm »
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Why would that be the case? If Autodesk were to claim that your Eagle V7 license is no longer valid at all since they now have a brand-new, different product, you would be outraged (rightfully). If you were to claim that your V7 license now suddenly covers a wider scope, I assume Autodesk would not be amused. Pacta sunt servanda...

The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)
 

Offline jgarc063

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #352 on: February 02, 2017, 06:18:55 pm »
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Hi Kjelt,

I hope your doing well. There's a few points in your response that need clarification.

1) Autodesk has not dropped all support. We are still supporting legacy EAGLE users, if they call in for help I still answer and I still assist. If they need their packing list resent so that they can install their older version of EAGLE we send it, no problem.

2) The non-commercial clause is not off the table, the old licenses are still subject to the old Cadsoft EULA. It is not legal to use the non-commercial version for commercial purposes. Do people do it anyway? I think you and I both know the answer.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

 
 
The following users thanked this post: Kjelt

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #353 on: February 02, 2017, 08:24:56 pm »
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Why would that be the case? If Autodesk were to claim that your Eagle V7 license is no longer valid at all since they now have a brand-new, different product, you would be outraged (rightfully). If you were to claim that your V7 license now suddenly covers a wider scope, I assume Autodesk would not be amused. Pacta sunt servanda...

The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)

Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
 

Offline K6TR

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #354 on: February 02, 2017, 08:33:07 pm »
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

Dave the principle issue with Altium CS is Altium policy itself. There is too much gamesmanship from Altium Brass. First they design Circuitmaker as a Cloud based product that they know has very little chance of gaining popular acceptance. They they release Circuit Studio employing Element 14 as a Value Added Retailer to implement a 300% mark up. And finally I have learned that Altium is going to be sub-licensing a version of CS to Dassault Systems to be incorporated in Solidworks. They are even advertising Solidworks as "Solidworks powered by Altium".  :palm: Does anyone think with such an open display of disregard for the Hobbyist/Maker/Small Business that any software package pitched to that market will be taken seriously no matter how good it is ? Even if the price is cut by 50%. It would seem obvious the big winner emerging from this fiasco is going to be KiCad.

I am a satisfied Dip Trace User and for the hobbyist Dip Trace Standard version is more than they will ever need. At a price of 400 dollars that undercuts the half price 500 dollar figure for Circuit Studio.

As I read this thread I am taken aback by the number of Eagle users that have stated words to the effect :

 :rant: I'm going to download KiCad and then make a big donation to CERN.

Talk about being impetuous this is a shining example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Of course small users should look out for their interests and to that end downloading KiCad or some other Open Source package is essential. But it should not stop there. Small Users should obtain a copy of at least one of the other CAD Packages if only to familiarize themselves with it. That way they are prepared for the worst should the Autodesk Scenario repeat itself in the future. From what I see Altium is playing footsies with small users and when I get that vibe I respond by stating I don't have time for games. If the focus of the Altium's Business is on the Mega Users and sub Licensing CS to leverage its presence in the market place then more power to them. But why are they wasting time and effort playing games with us ?

The lesson we all should learn from this episode is not to rely on one platform to the exclusion of everything. Even if it means obtaining a second package to only familiarise yourself. I have downloaded KiCad and noodled around with it. At this stage in its development KiCad is to clunky for my tastes but with maturity I can see it becoming a very capable package. For the time being I'm staying with Dip Trace. It's easy to use and quick for someone to come up to speed. I'm happily satisfied with the package.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 10:55:43 am by K6TR »
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3681
  • Country: de
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #355 on: February 02, 2017, 08:37:22 pm »
The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)

Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

And it gets even better than that: $15 should do, for one month of the standard license!
(Which is no longer limited to non-commercial use, and is rumored to soon support 4 layers.)

What a beautiful world!  ;)
 

Offline K6TR

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #356 on: February 02, 2017, 09:17:26 pm »
"Kicad people" is a pretty meaningless phrase anyway, it's not like KiCad has a marketing division!

Maybe not Snake but before we get the impression that KiCad Developers are as pure as the driven snow check out the following news release from the KiCad website.

Quote
Gerber X2 Support
2016-11-18
The KiCad project is pleased to announce that it is the first electronic development application to fully support the Gerber X2 extensions. See the article on the PCB Design website. Thanks to the efforts of project founder Jean-Pierre Charras, KiCad can provide full Gerber X2 extension support before any proprietary or open source electronic development applications. The Gerber X2 support is currently available in the nightly builds of KiCad and will ship when the stable 5 version of KiCad is released.

I don't know what they mean when they say "to fully support" but I do know that Dip Trace released Gerber X2 and ODB++ when they released Version 3.0.0 in March of 2016. It's interesting how the KiCad statement circles back with words at the end of the statement to imply Gerber X2 support really wasn't formally released.

Quote
Gerber X2 support is currently available in the nightly builds of KiCad and will ship when the stable 5 version of KiCad is released.

This is Laundry Detergent advertising language and it arouses suspicion. It would appear to me that more than a few folks at KiCad seem to be more than a little anxious to acquire as much market share as possible. What's that all about ?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:10:09 am by K6TR »
 

Offline Agent86

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #357 on: February 02, 2017, 09:46:40 pm »
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
I'm starting to look forward to your posts Lab, I get a good chuckle out of them.   :-DD

I absolutely agree that if you're just starting out, $65 (or $15) is a fantastic deal!  I think I've alluded to the idea of the old market vs the new market for EAGLE.  This is great for the new market.   :blah:

But, I can also see why so many from the old market are upset.   :horse:
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5967
  • Country: nl
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #358 on: February 02, 2017, 09:48:32 pm »
Hi Kjelt,
1) Autodesk has not dropped all support.
2) The non-commercial clause is not off the table
Thanks for the clarification  :)
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #359 on: February 02, 2017, 11:07:51 pm »
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

Autodesk may have a hostile clause in their license agreement -- or may eventually feel the need to add one -- to the effect that noncommercial licenses cannot be upgraded at the last minute, or upgraded only temporarily, for the purpose of commercial distribution. 

This is the same problem faced by Qt, the open-source UI toolkit that EAGLE and about a million other applications use.  Note the waffling and contradictory language in clause 3.13.  If you get away with disregarding this requirement, it's only because you're not worth going after, not because you're legally in the clear.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #360 on: February 03, 2017, 02:49:53 am »
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

Autodesk may have a hostile clause in their license agreement -- or may eventually feel the need to add one -- to the effect that noncommercial licenses cannot be upgraded at the last minute, or upgraded only temporarily, for the purpose of commercial distribution. 

Find it, or ask Jorge if there is one.  I doubt it.  The whole idea of the month-to-month pricing is that one pays a premium for short duration use of the full package.  I know that I'm one of the few that think it's a feature, but I'm a one-man-bander like many here, and I simply don't do full-time PCB design, but when I do, time is precious and I want a user-friendly package.  The same goes for CAD.  Far from full-time, but when I do, I love having full-tilt AutoCad versus something "foreign" that takes a lot of learning. 

So, while paying monthly fees is irritating on a monthly basis, the subscription model with the option to buy only one month or a few, allows me to go legit *and* be productive with a decent tool.

Honestly, I think Autodesk will do a good job of bringing Eagle up to modern standards.  When that happens, there's going to be a lot of people looking at Altium and wondering if they *really* need that one whizzbang feature that only gets used 1% of the time, versus a far less expensive package that gets the job done well, with the minor consequence of some extra fussing with corner case designs. 
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #361 on: February 03, 2017, 02:51:16 am »
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
I'm starting to look forward to your posts Lab, I get a good chuckle out of them.   :-DD

I absolutely agree that if you're just starting out, $65 (or $15) is a fantastic deal!  I think I've alluded to the idea of the old market vs the new market for EAGLE.  This is great for the new market.   :blah:

But, I can also see why so many from the old market are upset.   :horse:

I'm glad you're getting the fact that I'm just trying to rib you guys on some of this stuff.  Give the Dark Side a try.  We have cookies. :-+
 

Offline Agent86

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #362 on: February 03, 2017, 03:25:33 am »
Honestly, I think Autodesk will do a good job of bringing Eagle up to modern standards.  When that happens, there's going to be a lot of people looking at Altium and wondering if they *really* need that one whizzbang feature that only gets used 1% of the time, versus a far less expensive package that gets the job done well, with the minor consequence of some extra fussing with corner case designs.

This.  I don't think I'm alone when I say I've been waiting a long time for EAGLE to mature into the product I think it could be.  If it gets closer to the Altium level while providing integration with the other Autodesk products, I think it'll be a winner.

For sure, if I was a brand new user without any Cadsoft baggage, I'd be all over it.  Of course, with my luck, I chose TurboCAD and Lightwave along with EAGLE, so I might have some adapting to do...   |O
 

Offline cx05

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: de
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #363 on: February 03, 2017, 03:37:46 pm »
[...] I don't think I'm alone when I say I've been waiting a long time for EAGLE to mature into the product I think it could be.  If it gets closer to the Altium level while providing integration with the other Autodesk products, I think it'll be a winner.

For sure, if I was a brand new user without any Cadsoft baggage, I'd be all over it.  Of course, with my luck, I chose TurboCAD and Lightwave along with EAGLE, so I might have some adapting to do...   |O

I wonder whether buying Eagle is a good starting point for coming close to the Altium level. While I like Eagle for it's simplicity and customization options, I wonder whether the core of the software really can be improved to that level without doing essentially a rewrite. For example:
  • Planes are nonexistant and have to be imitated by polygons
  • Polygon fills are calculated as line-fills
  • all modern Export formats are missing or realized as ULP (think ODB++/IPC-2581)
  • There is no live-DRC and the DRC engine has very limited configuration options to apply rules to specific areas/devices
  • 3D-Integration is non-existant, although Autodesk should have some very good people/existing software to change that
  • Large designs are a problem. Maybe it's just the graphics as there seems to be no hardware acceleration.
  • Very simple router, does not even support "stop at obstacle" or live clearance constraints
  • Library management does not support corporate environments (DB connections)
  • Layer stack configuration is awkward
  • ULP language, although powerful, can only work on a static snapshot. There is no "live" API to the editor
  • No impedance driven / high speed design rules/DRC
  • ...
I could go on for some time, but I think you get the point.
None of that matters for entry to mid-level boards, and a skilled engineer/user can work around most of the limitations. For new users, it's in fact an advantage, since they are not overwhelmed by the many features they don't need.
But if you buy a enterprise level CAD package like the ones Autodesk offers, why on earth would you choose it because it comes with an integrated or closely linked entry-level PCB solution? It would make more sense to have a mid-to-high-level PCB solution coupled to it. Also, I doubt many EEs would use a mechanical CAD package to do their routing. The workflow is so different that I cannot think of a good combination of both interfaces. And if you use separate interfaces, there's no advantage over two standalone programs.

If they want to improve eagle to the point where it can compete with Altium, I doubt that there's much of the original code left untouched. All the really hard problems (especially DRC and router) are still unsolved to achieve that level with Eagle.
They could have hired a bunch of developers from the big ECAD companies and have more success in developing a high end suite from scratch. Now they have a software that needs a major overhaul, and when they do that to reach a reasonable level to make if worth combining with MCAD, chances are high they break compatibility/work-flow/legacy ULPs for existing users.

So essentially existing users will most likely be upset because their work-flow becomes more complicated and legacy tools will break; new professional users will be highly skeptical, since Eagle doesn't have a reputation as a high-end tool and Autodesk has little ECAD experience, and new hobbyist/SME users will not be able to pay the kind of money Autodesk is used to charge for their products. So the big question is, who is the target audience for this new solution that justifies development costs? Especially as they are trying hard to get rid of most of their existing users/community, which always was the strong point of Eagle.
 
The following users thanked this post: rx8pilot

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5493
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #364 on: February 03, 2017, 04:16:34 pm »
Exactly! The way Autodesk are dealing with Eagle at the moment doesn't make much sense, besides maybe trying to figure out how much they can sqeeze out of customers. I'd assume a professional version of Eagle would require a re-write. As it is right now it's a hobbyist/maker/SME EDA package. And adding a few features won't change this.
 

Offline hlavac

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 538
  • Country: cz
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #365 on: February 03, 2017, 04:23:19 pm »
So it seems to me they basically want the current users to pay for the improvements that will ultimately mean they will not be able to afford it anymore... hence the forced subscription.

Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one? It was fine for my three boards a year, thank you very much.. I even paid for the non commercial hobbyist version to get the bigger area!



Good enough is the enemy of the best.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #366 on: February 03, 2017, 09:31:59 pm »
Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one

Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 10:04:39 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #367 on: February 03, 2017, 11:29:39 pm »
So essentially existing users will most likely be upset because their work-flow becomes more complicated and legacy tools will break; new professional users will be highly skeptical, since Eagle doesn't have a reputation as a high-end tool and Autodesk has little ECAD experience, and new hobbyist/SME users will not be able to pay the kind of money Autodesk is used to charge for their products. So the big question is, who is the target audience for this new solution that justifies development costs? Especially as they are trying hard to get rid of most of their existing users/community, which always was the strong point of Eagle.

An excellent assessment. 

If EAGLE could have been turned into a top-tier competitor, CADSoft would have already done it.  Autodesk basically bought themselves 20 years of technical debt.
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13008
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #368 on: February 03, 2017, 11:33:49 pm »
Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one

Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee.

Why would those users even need Altium's maintenance? Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3823
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #369 on: February 04, 2017, 01:06:21 am »
Aah.  The age old question of economics.  What is the price elasticity curve for a given product, and how does it change with features.

For some reason software vendors seem to have no clue about this whole concept.  When complaining about piracy they state their losses as the number of pirated copies times the retail price.  Not realizing that the market is far larger for an item at zero perceived cost than it is for something with a real cost.  Open source software is also vulnerable to this trap when comparing market penetration.  Some open source software is actually excellent and has achieved its market share through merit.  Others are used for ideological reasons or because it is free.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline K6TR

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #370 on: February 04, 2017, 01:18:41 am »
Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.

You'd be surprised how fast money can erase that gap. All you need is enough of it.
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13008
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #371 on: February 04, 2017, 01:21:38 am »
Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.

You'd be surprised how fast money can erase that gap. All you need is enough of it.

Sure, and as someone else pointed out already, you'd pretty much have to throw it all out and start over, so why bother buying an existing product?
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13008
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #372 on: February 04, 2017, 01:24:57 am »
Aah.  The age old question of economics.  What is the price elasticity curve for a given product, and how does it change with features.

For some reason software vendors seem to have no clue about this whole concept.  When complaining about piracy they state their losses as the number of pirated copies times the retail price.  Not realizing that the market is far larger for an item at zero perceived cost than it is for something with a real cost.  Open source software is also vulnerable to this trap when comparing market penetration.  Some open source software is actually excellent and has achieved its market share through merit.  Others are used for ideological reasons or because it is free.

That drives me nuts with the movie and music industry too. I'm not going to condone piracy, but to claim every illegal download as a lost sale is absolutely absurd. As if every teenager with 50,000 MP3s would have spent $50K on their music collection if they couldn't get it for free. I'd bet that the amount of piracy that represents actual lost sales is probably closer to 20% and even that may be very optimistic. I cannot even take their concerns seriously when they are so utterly hyperbolic.
 

Offline K6TR

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #373 on: February 04, 2017, 01:30:11 am »
Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee.

I concur with Dave on this. Between 1 Grand and 10 Grand is a Dead Zone. Maybe you can work the Hobbyist/Developer client base into a 2 Grand Package with maturity of the software and enough features. Or possibly even create a new niche with a 2500 dollar package that enables small independent design houses to pop up. But the Big Manufacturers want the latest and greatest no expense spared. They are will to pay for the best. There are no Bargain Hunters in that demographic to drive prices down so why cut prices when the market is already established ?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 01:32:24 am by K6TR »
 

Offline K6TR

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #374 on: February 04, 2017, 01:44:19 am »
Sure, and as someone else pointed out already, you'd pretty much have to throw it all out and start over, so why bother buying an existing product?

Because in a worst case scenario the Eagle name is established. And maybe that is all Autodesk is after, the Splash Screen.

I would think that large portions of the UI still have value to Autodesk.

For all we know Autodesk is using Version 8 as sort of a stalking horse to test market acceptance. Maybe after substantial input they jump to version 10. With more customer feedback they make another overhaul and release it as Eagle 2 Version 1.0.0 The Eagle name is still there.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf