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EDA => Eagle => Topic started by: KoningTosti on January 12, 2017, 10:02:28 am

Title: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KoningTosti on January 12, 2017, 10:02:28 am
Hi all,

I just noticed something interresting on the EAGLE wbsite. Look at the attachment. Autodesk is doing a "huge" update on EAGLE. Probably some Fusion 360 integration as was mentioned in an earlier thread. I was just in the market for a new CAD package and this could be interesting. Originally looking at circuitstudio, but in our small company  one of the employees is using Linux. This could be an interesting option.

What do you think? Will this release change the way we should look at EAGLE? If the new routing is good, it will be a massive improvement over the previous version of EAGLE.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: vinicius.jlantunes on January 12, 2017, 10:51:54 am
In the thread where the Autodesk acquisition of Eagle was discussed we had Matt (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=121542 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=121542)) who was (still is?) from Autodesk and was answering questions. Perhaps if you can engage him in this conversation you may get interesting information.

There might even be some information on that thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/)) but I haven't read it in a while.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 12, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
You guys have no idea the awesome that is about to drop.  ;D

That screenshot only shows a few of the new things coming, there's even more that isn't shown on that screen.

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to say much. I do encourage everyone to join the Hack-chat happening tomorrow on hackaday.
http://hackaday.com/2017/01/11/friday-hack-chat-eagle-pcb-design-with-matt-berggren (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/11/friday-hack-chat-eagle-pcb-design-with-matt-berggren)

Matt and I will be available to answer questions and discuss.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Autodesk
Product Support Specialist for EAGLE
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: technotronix on January 17, 2017, 01:56:51 pm
I am really waiting for this EAGLE update.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cdev on January 17, 2017, 02:25:20 pm
will the small board user still get the use of the product for free?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Fred27 on January 17, 2017, 02:45:07 pm
And will hobbyists like myself that paid for the Make edition have an appropriate upgraded version?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 17, 2017, 03:32:18 pm
Consider this: http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/49854/cd18344752fa135d4190b59a5e6a95f9/ (http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/49854/cd18344752fa135d4190b59a5e6a95f9/)

Quote
Dear Valued EAGLE Customer,

With the release of EAGLE v7, CadSoft Computer introduced a new
License Management system for EAGLE in order to better protect
our intellectual property and offer more flexibility and control
to customers with multi-user licenses on a network. During the
two weeks since the launch of EAGLE v7, we have been listening
carefully to your constructive feedback and concerns about the
new License Management technology and have decided to remove the
license management features from EAGLE v7.

CadSoft Computer has always, and will always, put the customer
needs at the focus of everything we do. We understand that for a
large group of our customers the current License Management is
causing limitations or is simply not usable in your current work
flow. Therefore, we have decided to withdraw the new License
Management system with immediate effect. As of the 11th of August,
2014, all new EAGLE licenses will be delivered without a License
Management Tool. All current EAGLE v7.0 licenses will when
upgraded to v7.1 move back to the previous license model.

The V7 License management system and user rights will be identical
to those in EAGLE V6.

We will release a new Version V7.1 of EAGLE on Monday the 11th
of August, which will be available for download from our Website.

Guess what? Autodesk & Cadsoft haven't learned their lesson and they will introduce again a license management system.
This means that you can't use Eagle anymore without internet connection  :palm:

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: NANDBlog on January 17, 2017, 03:41:41 pm
I guess they will change the default colors for the layers, they might even make some new icons for stuff. Maybe even a new menu bar. And different fonts. There will be big changes with eagle, now it will be a usable software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: JPortici on January 17, 2017, 08:21:57 pm
Originally looking at circuitstudio, but in our small company  one of the employees is using Linux. This could be an interesting option.

or or or or or or... use diptrace.
or or or or kicad.
won't touch that POS eagle unless they redesign the UI from scratch
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 17, 2017, 08:50:35 pm
To be fair, the total number of people "boycotting" EAGLE are probably now known, their existing user base will more than likely be happy to upgrade, I switched from EAGLE to KiCAD, purely for the fact that KiCAD did everything EAGLE did (that I needed) and it was completely free and OS.

If the changes to the new software are legible enough for "flown" users to come back to it then they make expand their user base.

Nevertheless, it's nice to know that it is still in active development, I was a happy EAGLE user for many years, and would have no real issue going back to use it tomorrow (apart from price when using it for personal use, can't beat free and unrestricted!).
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KoningTosti on January 18, 2017, 09:35:07 am
or or or or or or... use diptrace.
or or or or kicad.
won't touch that POS eagle unless they redesign the UI from scratch

I used Diptrace, liked it, but only for simple boards where strict rule checking and polygon accuracy don't matter. Routing isn't much better in Diptrace than in Eagle.
KiCAD is something I haven't looked at, but I heard the library management was crippled. I have installed it and take it for a spin.

About the licensing. Read the hackchat: https://hackaday.io/event/19355-eagle-hack-chat/log/51826-read-the-chat-here I thought they mentioned something like 20 days per online lease.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 18, 2017, 10:35:21 am
Is there an ETA for this release?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 18, 2017, 11:28:29 am
About the licensing. Read the hackchat: https://hackaday.io/event/19355-eagle-hack-chat/log/51826-read-the-chat-here I thought they mentioned something like 20 days per online lease.

Absolutely unacceptable.  The issue isn't whether you have to sign in every 2 hours, every 2 days, or every 200 days.  The issue is, I want my toolchain to work 10 years from now, after Autodesk has stopped maintaining the servers.

As a Professional licensee since 4.1, it looks like 7.x is where I get off the EAGLE train.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 18, 2017, 12:17:21 pm
Have a look here: http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/52901/90be6616cc619dc651e072c006dec854/ (http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/52901/90be6616cc619dc651e072c006dec854/)

and scroll down to read how existing users think about it...

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 18, 2017, 01:40:39 pm
I fully agree with the posters on the Eagle forum. Any licensing scheme which requires an internet connection is an absolute no-go for me. If you want to know why that method is a big fail you just need to look at computer games. I've hoped things will improve with Autodesk, but it becomes worse :(
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ReneK on January 18, 2017, 06:17:16 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/126/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/126/)

Quote from reply #126: "...it's not going subscription..."

This was a lie, thank you very much. And Jorge added: "Autodesk is full subscription going forward and this position is
non-negotiable."

Source: http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52901/168331/b5952d433f9890c005408768aefd061d/#msg_168331 (http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52901/168331/b5952d433f9890c005408768aefd061d/#msg_168331)

And it's getting even better: "You need to have an Autodesk account, even to use the freeware."

Source: http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52901/168329/b5952d433f9890c005408768aefd061d/#msg_168329 (http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52901/168329/b5952d433f9890c005408768aefd061d/#msg_168329)

I really wonder if someone seriously considers upgrading?



Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: H.O on January 18, 2017, 08:21:35 pm
WTF!?
What they specifically said wouldn't happen is ALREADY happening? Subscription, really?
That TOTALLY kills it for me.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 18, 2017, 10:09:06 pm
Hmm, the subscription model is bloody expensive!
£400 odd quid for the pro per year, so it costs as much (more in fact) in 3 years than buying a lifetime license for a version?  :wtf:

I just installed V8, tried to run it, then it promptly complained about a missing file and closed... :palm:

If you have to connect to the internet to use it (albeit every 14 days) you may as well use circuit maker, or DipTrace.

I must have missed this "awesomeness" that has dropped. :--
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 19, 2017, 02:03:58 am
Um, DipTrace doesn't require an internet connection... I've been running it in a VM with no internet access for over a year, no issues.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 19, 2017, 10:42:43 am
Yeah, I wrote it wrong, I meant use Circuit Maker.  Alternatively use DipTrace (in comparison for price etc).

It only requires an internet connection to download it :)

Or KiCAD, but not everyone gets on with it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 19, 2017, 02:45:24 pm
I just got an email update.

Apparently Eagle is now Subscriptionware. Now we can all buy the program on a monthly basis. Continuously.

I guess I'll be keeping multiple backup copies of my v6 handy, as I've already paid for it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 19, 2017, 03:01:51 pm
Great! So Autodesk is ruining Eagle completely. Well done! :palm:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 19, 2017, 03:12:11 pm
OMG that what I found so nice about Eagle that you can buy a version as hobbieist and use it for a couple of years than buy a new version if it has more versions is now a milking cow scheme, and guess what I am not giving them my milk. I will cherish my v6 version and use it till the end. Mooooooh uh Booooooh  ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 19, 2017, 03:19:17 pm
The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 19, 2017, 03:31:31 pm
I just got the email from Autodesk. The changes to Eagle actually sounded great and much needed.  :-+
Then I saw the subscription thing  :--  :--  :--  :--

I would have considered paying an upgrade fee for a perpetual license if there was a discount for existing licenses. But they can shove subscriptions, always online and requiring an account where the sun doesn't shine.

Oh well. Time to give KiCad another go.

The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.

There are ULP scripts around somewhere to convert Eagle parts to KiCad, so converting libraries should not be too difficult as long as you double check everything before you use it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on January 19, 2017, 04:44:15 pm
I also just received "the great news".

The new licensing model makes Eagle dead to me.  Feels like a re-run of the 7.0 licensing fiasco.

I've been paying for the unlimited, full version (layout/schematic/router) for over 15 years (since v3.5, I think).  That's no minor investment.  And I will vote with my money and stay on 7.7 until they change the licensing, or I move irreversibly to another CAD system.

I simply won't have another entity in control of when, where, and to what level of functionality a piece of software that is critical to my business will run at any given time.

Their marketing justification that Microsoft, Adobe, and others do rent-ware is meaningless.  Who does this licensing model really serve?  (That's a rhetorical question.)

Too bad.  I was looking forward to the modular design feature which was only partially implemented in 7.x, and more router enhancements.  They can keep it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Fred27 on January 19, 2017, 06:00:32 pm
I'm another paying customer who'll be staying on 7.7. What a joke. At first glance I wouldn't even say there's much of an improvement in 8 anyway. Still rubbish on high DPI displays. (The buttons on the left become so tiny they're unusable.) Still rubbish with a touchscreen or stylus.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jpanhalt on January 19, 2017, 06:52:01 pm
Where can I obtain a copy of the EULA or "license agreement" to read? 

My searches on the AutoDesk Eagle site for "license" or "EULA" led to blank screens.

And yes, I am one of those people who actually reads a new contract before forking over any money.

John
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ElektroQuark on January 19, 2017, 07:03:08 pm
Thank you Autodesk for help promoting KiCad ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: uncle_bob on January 19, 2017, 07:26:20 pm
Hi

So ....where can you download a legit copy of 7.7? That appears to be the last version that my "perpetual" license applies to. Also, when I need to re-seat that license (due to a computer upgrade) ... how do I regenerate the license stuff?

......

Why do I have a feeling I'm not going to be happy about the answers to any Eagle questions from here on out? ....

Bob
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EBRAddict on January 19, 2017, 07:35:16 pm
As a user with a perpetual non-commercial Eagle Make license, I won't be paying $500 a year to get the same functionality I already have.

If I'd known Autodesk was buying Eagle last year I would *never* have bought a license.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: uncle_bob on January 19, 2017, 07:38:37 pm
I'm in the same boat: I need far more than the "free" version provides. I'm a hobbyist who happens to do 6 to 8 layer boards with signals on all the layers. Their "perpetual" license (barely) made sense, but I paid for it. Now I seem to have hit a dead end. There simply is no way that my use of the product is worth $500 a year. That seems to be the only option I have going forward.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: termi on January 19, 2017, 07:54:51 pm
Couldn't find the old version anywhere on the Autodesk website, but link below still points to V7.7 if anyone wants to download a legit version before they remove it:

http://www.cadsoft.de/download/ (http://www.cadsoft.de/download/)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jpanhalt on January 19, 2017, 07:55:12 pm
@Uncle_Bob

Every time I fire up my 7.2.0 version I get a message that 7.7.0 is available.   I clicked on the configure last week and downloaded, but did not install it yet.

It may also be on the Autodesk site, but I haven't checked.

John
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: uncle_bob on January 19, 2017, 07:57:19 pm
Couldn't find the old version anywhere on the Autodesk website, but link below still points to V7.7 if anyone wants to download a legit version before they remove it:

http://www.cadsoft.de/download/ (http://www.cadsoft.de/download/)

THANKS !! The link worked for me.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 19, 2017, 08:04:52 pm
Here you can find al versions and without the need to register:

ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/ (ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/)

Grab it before Autodesk removes it...


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on January 19, 2017, 08:21:56 pm
I am a full version paid professional user - will not even consider a subscription. It works for some software products, but not this one. I specifically want a locked down piece of software. I will decide and control the rollout of updates. I have done SolidWorks and MasterCAM like that since 1998. It keeps me safe, just the way I like it.

Internet required is an instant NO.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Zom-B on January 19, 2017, 08:47:36 pm
See that subscribe button in the image of OP (actually scrolled below the screen)?  I did that, and you know what, I never got an email that it was released and only found out now.

Not that it matters though, I can't use it! Bloody sign-in prompt. DELETE!

Now I need to look for another free package that isn't Eagle, Diptrace, KiCad, DesignSpark  or Altium Designer (all tried and ditched)

[edit] Or perpetually stay at 7.7, but I rather not as I borderline ditched that because of many frustrations.
[Edit] Added DesignSpark to the list
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bghende on January 19, 2017, 08:52:30 pm
Basically every software tool in every industry is going to a subscription model. Better get used to it.

On the plus side:
* the software only has to "phone home" every 30 days
* if you only need occasional access to the tools it can be a lot cheaper

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on January 19, 2017, 09:03:54 pm
Microsoft and Adobe have the option which is great. For example, I was able to get Adobe Premier on subscription to get started. If I have a need, I can buy the standalone version and lock myself in. Once I have a work flow established for a process, I don't want to change unless the change offers a real improvement in the big scheme of things.

In PCB design, I don't want anything to change until I am ready to test a new version. If I decide to go another route in the future I want full and complete access to my legacy data.

I stopped updating SolidWorks in 2013 because they have not added a single must have feature since then. The next upgrade will likely be only for compatibility with Win10.

I am not trying to save money as much as I want stability, predictability, and long term legacy access. Just give me the option to buy a package with a year of maintenance as a perpetual license.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 19, 2017, 09:08:40 pm
Basically every software tool in every industry is going to a subscription model. Better get used to it.

Every software tool being housed by the larger organizations that ceased to innovate and chose to just buy up other products, is going this route, to that I would agree. I have no obligation to 'get used to it.' I paid my $1,200~ due for my license of Eagle Pro. It still functions, independent of needing the latest and greatest. If I have to maintain a dedicated legacy PC to do my PCBs (assuming I've not switched to KiCad), then that is what i'll do. I can buy a new, basic, PC for $250, and it will last far longer than a single annual license on this new shakedown.

Ultimately, someone will come along and figure out how to bundle together the real basic functionality needed in a schematic capture and layout package which parallels Eagle (granted it will be a new learning curve), and not operate on the ridiculous subscription model, and they will get my money. I bought Eagle precisely because it wasn't the other packages which went similar ways.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 19, 2017, 09:10:53 pm
Waiting for Autodesk to respond to this now!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: calexanian on January 19, 2017, 09:16:07 pm
The axe has finally dropped. The CAD companies need continuing profits or they will not bother continuing to support this kind of tool because they are greedy bastards and have always been. For professionals who are continuously doing designs the $500 a year price per seat is not in issue. Its just the cost of doing business. For others who just do a few things a year or small companies with long standing products this is a real shaft. We fit into the category and will continue loafing along on our previous purchased in full Lic. until we cant use it anymore.  At that time if subscription is the only option available, apart from open source of course, we will most likely just jump up to one seat of Altium and it will just be "The company" pcb design workstation. Cadsoft was no prize, but this is just big business trying to fleece small business.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 19, 2017, 09:16:07 pm
Basically every software tool in every industry is going to a subscription model. Better get used to it. 
I rather have a pay per use model my self. A lot of software is only needed a few times a year unless you make money with it in which case it is ok.
But lets face it a lot of people do not make money with the software, they use it for themselves.
If every business (not only software) is going to charge you a fixed fee per month, if you use their business or not, your salary won't cut it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 19, 2017, 09:23:02 pm
I am going to chime in here as well.

My company owns 30 licenses for EAGLE professional, but without the autorouter module.
We have been steadily upgrading while our company grew, but it looks indeed like 7 is the last version we will be using.

I am hoping that the same will happen as what happened to 7.0: users will drop it like a brick.
CadSoft quickly realised that this was a massive fail and removed the license manager again.
We have never tried 7.0 as I sent an E-mail at the time holding off our upgrade purchase until the license manager was gone.

Some requirements that we have:
- Linux and Windows support
- flat-fee model
- no internet connectivity requirement
- trust based licensing model, where I am honest as a user and they are honest as a supplier

I have upgraded to 30 licenses for the company based on the fact that I would not want to screw over a company that produces a great product for a neat price.

Will not upgrade unless they fix it. No feature makes us switch to subscription based.

EDIT: We are not even using 30 concurrent licenses! we have many people that only VIEW PCBs and not even need EAGLE. I will gladly buy everyone a license that needs one. But with the current pricing, it just does not work financially!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 19, 2017, 09:39:58 pm
Basically every software tool in every industry is going to a subscription model. Better get used to it.

Actually this is decision of the market. If users move to non-subscription software, software companies are forced to move in the same direction to make money.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 19, 2017, 09:50:19 pm
Actually this is decision of the market. If users move to non-subscription software, software companies are forced to move in the same direction to make money.

Indeed, and I do hope people take a stand against this nonsense.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: uncle_bob on January 19, 2017, 09:50:51 pm
Hi

Subscription at a rational price - fine.

License forever at a rational price  - fine.

License forever that suddenly goes away when somebody on the other end changes their mind - not so much.

License forever that has no equivalent subscription - not so much.

I do *not* agree that $500 a year is a "trivial" expense for a program with as many issues as Eagle in a professional environment. We spend way more than that (per seat per year) on the stuff we use at work. We get way more as well .....

The bigger issue in a lot of this is keeping compatibility with older files. In a business, that's a really big deal. The cost of manually re-entering a 10 year old design when there is a change - yikes !!! In a home environment, maybe not quite as big an issue. Simply randomly hopping between programs is not a viable solution. The file conversion stuff is always a "sort of works ... but ... errr" kind of thing.

Bob
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 19, 2017, 10:30:06 pm
I'm another paying customer who'll be staying on 7.7. What a joke. At first glance I wouldn't even say there's much of an improvement in 8 anyway. Still rubbish on high DPI displays. (The buttons on the left become so tiny they're unusable.) Still rubbish with a touchscreen or stylus.

Hi Fred,

You can scale the icons so that it works on HDPI displays. Go to the EAGLE control panel > Options > User Interface on the right side there is a field that says icon size.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 19, 2017, 10:31:58 pm
Where can I obtain a copy of the EULA or "license agreement" to read? 

My searches on the AutoDesk Eagle site for "license" or "EULA" led to blank screens.

And yes, I am one of those people who actually reads a new contract before forking over any money.

John

Hello John,

I hope you're doing well. You can find the licensing agreement here:
http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 19, 2017, 10:33:49 pm
Hi

So ....where can you download a legit copy of 7.7? That appears to be the last version that my "perpetual" license applies to. Also, when I need to re-seat that license (due to a computer upgrade) ... how do I regenerate the license stuff?

......

Why do I have a feeling I'm not going to be happy about the answers to any Eagle questions from here on out? ....

Bob

Hi Bob,

I hope you're doing well. You can download V7.7 from ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program.

If you need your license resent in the future, please call us at 954-362-5228 or e-mail sales@cadsoftusa.com.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Fred27 on January 19, 2017, 10:34:18 pm
Thanks for that tip, Jorge. I'm a bit embarrassed I never found that icon option!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 19, 2017, 10:49:41 pm
Right...I have downloaded version 8 Free and I am greeted with a login window.
Goodbye EAGLE
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 19, 2017, 10:53:09 pm
Hello Everyone,

It's been a long day, and I've been on three different forums talking about the subscription model. If you guys have any questions about it I'm happy to answer.

What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE. EAGLE has grown more in the last three months under Autodesk then it did in three years with Farnell. Here's some of the new stuff:
1. Improved manual routing engine, much nicer to use and operate. Incorporates loop removal.
2. Implicit Group, basically EAGLE can now behave the way most new users expect it to. You can define a group and then click and hold to move it, when no command is active EAGLE defaults to Group(Similar to select in other programs).
3. Slice functionality, you introduce a gap into various traces to simplify rework.
4. Designblocks, allows users to save portions of schematic and layout as if it were a library part allowing for easy reuse.
5. Pinsnapping on the schematic guarantees that nets always connect to the pins.
6. BGA Fanout Router, easily breakout complex BGAs.

All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

Let me know if you guys need anything.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 19, 2017, 10:54:56 pm
Right...I have downloaded version 8 Free and I am greeted with a login window.
Goodbye EAGLE

Hi pa3weg,

You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com. The freeware is still free, everything is just tied to an Autodesk account.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 19, 2017, 11:02:38 pm
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE.

Well, it appears that they are not interested in that,  Jorge.

Let me know if you guys need anything.

It appears they want the old licensing system back Jorge. Can you do that?



Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 19, 2017, 11:14:39 pm
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE.

And therein lies the problem, what Autodesk wants and what [now former] customers want are not aligned. A software subscription is just the push I need and I suspect many others to stop relying on the familiarity of using Eagle and make the effort to invest in learning to use something else.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 19, 2017, 11:19:07 pm
Hi pa3weg,

You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com. The freeware is still free, everything is just tied to an Autodesk account.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
I really do not think you understand the userbase of EAGLE very well.

Are you aware of the backtracking that happened under the farnell model with FlexLM?
Are you aware of the *HARD* requirement of some folks to work without network? ANY network?
You must be aware that some people prefer to not have "accounts". You leave them without option

Subscriptions are not Evil per-se, but my cost is increasing more than tenfold for my use case, and becomes something periodical.
my last upgrade was ~5000 euro of upgrade cost for 30 users, after three years. That is  55 euro per user per year.
Your plan is at least 500 euro per user per year. And if we choose not to upgrade for 5 years, it is cheaper.

We customers lose flexibility and the choice to upgrade whenever we want, or not.

I think we ALL agree that there are many functions and features that are a great improvement. But you are changing the EAGLE market position, and I think you are really underestimating the amount of users that will drop you.

I would gladly pay for an upgrade. Maybe even a bit more expensive upgrade if it brings me nice features like the BGA fan-out you are talking about. But I want to pay once, pay when I like to upgrade and then OWN the software (OK, the right to use it) perpetually.
And I can tell you whatever I personally like, but my company is for sure not going to approve subscription based models.

As stated earlier:
Subscription at a rational price - fine.
License forever at a rational price  - fine.
License forever that suddenly goes away when somebody on the other end changes their mind - not so much.
License forever that has no equivalent subscription - not so much.

With the exception that I do not particularly care about the latter.
And I would add: options! give the user two models to choose from. Maybe discount the subscription a tiny bit if you want to persuade them. Don't overdo that though...
If you want users to keep paying you money, just create a useful program and kindly ask your users to renew. It has worked for CadSoft for the past 29 (!) years.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 19, 2017, 11:22:21 pm
You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com.

You just don't get it do you? It doesn't matter if the account is free or not. People don't want yet another account just so they can use software that has no business requiring one. People are tired of companies trying to force them into private walled gardens so that we can have 'cloud awesomeness'.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 19, 2017, 11:39:34 pm
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

I agree that Autodesk has done some good stuff with Eagle since they bought it. As I stated before, if there was still a reasonably priced perpetual license for version 8 then I would likely pay to upgrade my hobbyist license.

However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version. Therefore, it doesn't matter how good the work is that Autodesk has done. I already know that a subscription would be terrible value for me and the free version would be a step back from what I have now, even in the unlikely event that I were to put up with the always online requirement.

You may not like that, but that's the way it is. I'll stick with 7.7 until either I get around to switching to something else or you provide an alternative to the subscription model.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2017, 11:46:55 pm
However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version.

If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on January 19, 2017, 11:50:15 pm
My company has a "No software rental" policy as well. We have A LOT of Photoshop licenses that will stay as they are. But Autodesk like Adobe has figured out that even if only 50% subscribe the still take in a huge amount of money every 1/3/12 months. So they don't give a toss about the rest of us.

And that is why products like Adobe CS 6 perceptual and AutoDesk Autocad/Inventor 2013/2014/2015/2016 are selling at very high prices despite being "old" versions - because they are the last of their kind.

But FacePalm users like software subscriptions I find. :)

If I was EVER to consider a rental program - it would be based on -

1. LIFETIME Price Guarantee - price increases no higher than official inflation number
2. Annual Price not higher than old purchase price div 4 to 6
3. No product crippling over time - so if I have the highest feature set - I will ALWAYS have the highest feature set so a new product can't be pushed in above at a higher price unless I get cross graded with no extra subscription cost.
4. Files on MY system not on someone else's or in the cloud. Must be able to specify in settings NEVER to save in the cloud only locally.
5. Perceptual ACCESS/Ability to read/write/convert/export my files no matter what.
6. If company goes tits up - all source material goes public/open source if a buyer can't be found that will take over the full terms of the above.

So I do not think I'll ever rent software - unless it is crap cheap and give me a huge advantage. I do run online book-keeping - but export monthly in a format I can import into other systems. And I think the 30 US$ per month is worth it compared to "other systems" as it saves me HOURS of work every month.

I must admit as well - I use AutoDesk 360 Fusion - but that license so far is free. But again - every design made - gets downloaded and backed up after each finished iteration.

Would I pay for 360 Fusion - nope - not at all - you have to login every time and as my passwords are cryptic at best and different for every single "account" - so password is not memorable  - I simply often do not start Fusion 360 just because it ask me to login - and solve the issue some other way. It is also VERY slow to login and get ready due to all the "net sync" it does on every startup.  But it is a great tool to make 3D models in. But I would prefer a perceptual Autodesk Inverntor 2015/2016 license

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 20, 2017, 12:02:40 am
4. Files on MY system not on someone else's or in the cloud. Must be able to specify in settings NEVER to save in the cloud only locally.
5. Perceptual ACCESS/Ability to read/write/convert/export my files no matter what.

It saddens me that you would even need to state that nowadays.
I have been getting nowhere with cloud based people if I explain them I will not use and can not use the cloud.
Now the new hype is SaaS (Software as a Service, which is just there because the cloud was getting old hat as a term.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 20, 2017, 12:03:02 am
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)

As the software is only available on a subscription it will have to phone home to check if your subscription is up-to-date. No doubt there will be a certain number of days that it can function without talking to big brother otherwise it will stop working.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: calexanian on January 20, 2017, 12:04:41 am
What I am really seeing here is that they are trying to present Eagle as a top shelf professional program which it is not, nor will it ever be. Its just good enough for small companies to use and get things designed. I think they have really made a bad choice. People on the more professional end, our company included will make the decision that if they have to put up with accounts and subscriptions they will step up to one of the bigger better cad packages such as Altium. Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.  Cadsoft had a nice little niche and I hope they got lots of money but I cant see that product no matter how much they "Improve" it fitting into this kind of model being a long term winner. Electronics is too small of a world for people to not know whats going on. They would have been better off going and developing a whole new system with big boy features and compete with the others for the big company money.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: 2N3055 on January 20, 2017, 12:05:44 am
I will never give a money for a subscription... Unless it would be something like 50 USD per seat per year for a full version...   So I don't care...

This is what I have problem with:  So far, you would buy a perpetual license and you would decide when to upgrade.. And that would be when software would actually be made better... Better routing, usability speed... Something I would find useful enough to give money for..  So in standard model, user was in a control. If manufacturer wanted more money, they had to actually work for it...

In a subscription model, manufacturer is in control. You have to pay to keep on working. And every now and then, they resize icons, or do some stupid thing that has no productivity value... And that's upgrade to you..

And since first thing they did was to lie ( they promised no change in licensing will happen, and than, they made it Software as Service as their first "upgrade"), I have no trust in that product's future..
They will also probably change Eagle target market, and price it up in coming years...

No more Eagle for me.. I will have to go somewhere else soon...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 20, 2017, 12:13:30 am
However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version.

If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.

It requires an online license check every 14 days so you can get at most 14 days of offline use. I believe one of the posts I saw said they were going to update it so that it reverts to the free version after that time, but that's useless if you need to do work that requires the paid version.

So it's slightly better than "always" online, but it's still unacceptable in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 20, 2017, 12:17:19 am
Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.

Agreed

If you are happy with having an on-line account and all the cloudyness then you may as well go for Design Spark or Circuit Maker that don't have all the limitations imposed by the free version of Eagle.

There are plenty of low cost and free options for those looking for a perpetual license product.

If you have the budget to spend big money then why wouldn't you just get Altium and be done with it?


AutoDesk have just removed themselves from the niche that Eagle had. There will be enough people for the time being who just can't be bothered to switch and will suck up the subscription cost for convenience. It will even look great to the bean counters that all this money is coming in on a regular basis. But software lives and dies by its user community, as time goes on more people will drift away and something else will become the popular choice. The supply of new customers will dry up so AutoCad had better work hard in getting their investment buying CadSoft back in the next 3 years and in 5 years time they will be shutting Eagle down or selling it off.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 20, 2017, 12:18:54 am
What I am really seeing here is that they are trying to present Eagle as a top shelf professional program which it is not, nor will it ever be. Its just good enough for small companies to use and get things designed. I think they have really made a bad choice. People on the more professional end, our company included will make the decision that if they have to put up with accounts and subscriptions they will step up to one of the bigger better cad packages such as Altium. Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.  Cadsoft had a nice little niche and I hope they got lots of money but I cant see that product no matter how much they "Improve" it fitting into this kind of model being a long term winner. Electronics is too small of a world for people to not know whats going on. They would have been better off going and developing a whole new system with big boy features and compete with the others for the big company money.
My point exactly

I think we ALL agree that there are many functions and features that are a great improvement. But you are changing the EAGLE market position, and I think you are really underestimating the amount of users that will drop you.

We are either going to go for a bigger player OR we go and support KiCAD to become better and fill the EAGLE gap
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ReneK on January 20, 2017, 12:19:50 am
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
Matt confirmed it here : http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/52902/2cde8e03c073ccc8ea6889fcc1265653/ (http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/52902/2cde8e03c073ccc8ea6889fcc1265653/)

Quote: " If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled..."

So yes, EAGLE is sunk.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 20, 2017, 01:47:58 am
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.

Dave, 

Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Don't just stop with Eagle though ... look at *all* of the vendors ... Altium, Eagle, etc.  What did they do right, and what have they completely and utterly screwed up. 

With the latest changes, I can see Eagle being the defacto-standard now disappearing, and in my case (being a fully paid "Ultimate Edition" user), I'm now in the pickle where due to my own work requirements, when I'm on site for work, I'm away for > 40 days at a time (and almost always disconnected when working in the centre of AU in middle of no-where), so the constant connectivity is just unworkable. 

If nothing else, it should be hellish amusing....   :)

/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: PCB.Wiz on January 20, 2017, 02:11:42 am
The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.
I've not used it myself, but what I've seen of the Eagle to KiCad conversion looks quite good.

As more use it, I'm sure it will only get better :)

KiCAD also have a nice Shove Router, which I think is still 'somewhere in planning' for Eagle.

KiCAD does not mandate an internet connection.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 20, 2017, 02:21:14 am
Hello Everyone,

It's been a long day, and I've been on three different forums talking about the subscription model. If you guys have any questions about it I'm happy to answer.

Hokay ...

Quote
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE. EAGLE has grown more in the last three months under Autodesk then it did in three years with Farnell. Here's some of the new stuff:

yeah ... ok ...


Quote
1. Improved manual routing engine, much nicer to use and operate. Incorporates loop removal.
2. Implicit Group, basically EAGLE can now behave the way most new users expect it to. You can define a group and then click and hold to move it, when no command is active EAGLE defaults to Group(Similar to select in other programs).

Yay ...  finally something similar to what you and I were discussing before.  :)


Quote
3. Slice functionality, you introduce a gap into various traces to simplify rework.
4. Designblocks, allows users to save portions of schematic and layout as if it were a library part allowing for easy reuse.

Double yay! 

Quote
5. Pinsnapping on the schematic guarantees that nets always connect to the pins.
6. BGA Fanout Router, easily breakout complex BGAs.

Triple yay!

Quote
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

... and it's at this point, it all turns to shit. 

Subscription for running *is* evil.  There are no "ifs", "buts" or "maybes" about it (subscription for updates is a different story - I don't so much have an issue with that providing it's tied to features vs fixes and it's reasonably priced). 

I'm still yet to see anything from the licensing department regarding what happens to those of us whom have forked over a fair chunk for change for the multi-user "Ultimate Edition" licenses.  Are we about to screwed over by AutoDESK (as they have done in the past for other software). 

Any online requirement, unless it is for updating is complete and utter bullshit.  Sorry, there is *NO* spin on this one.  This becomes particularly important when you are working "away" and in places which there *is* no connectivity for any length of time. 


/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2017, 02:24:09 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bluetopia on January 20, 2017, 03:10:19 am
I'm pretty sure the subscription model is not targeted at home / hobbyist users, but rather to further monetize the large corporations that use the software even more.  The home / hobby users just have no other option than to go with it, so these 1-10 license hobbyists / companies will drop them. 

But ultimately the 500-1000+ seat companies generally prefer subscription.  Got an influx of new developers, buy more licenses!  Downsizing the department? Let subscriptions lapse during the next renewal.  Accounting gets to claim the cost as operating expense rather than capital expense (I think I got that right) which I believe is preferable for reasons only Accountants could know.  You only pay for the licenses you use, and you pay less at a time, but you pay every year and within 2-3 years, you've paid enough to have bought the product at permanent prices.

Unfortunately, it's the way any professional caliber software is going.  We've seen it with Office and Adobe, and those are two suites that have a lot of home users. 

I'm sitting here with my Photoshop CS6, Office 2013, and Lightroom 5 and I'm not moving.  (I haven't quite been sucked into the eCAD stuff yet :P)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ehughes on January 20, 2017, 03:12:30 am
I am an Altium user but I generally like the subscription model.    It means I can sign into any computer at any time.   No network license servers, etc.   It also allows me to spread the cost while still getting updates.       I now purchase Adobe and Office through subscriptions.    I was skeptical at 1st but really like it now.  It says me time and hassle.

I understand the connectivity issue but the 6 sigma case is that you are generally connected to the internet.     The cases when you are disconnected for that long are an extreme minority.     The fact that you are posting here regularly demonstrates that.     Don't tell me that you can sign in to bitch on forums but suddenly have no internet access for designs.     I am glad the days of large shelves of design books are gone.


There is risk with Autodesk being alive over the long term but I think a 25year history is a good start.

That and it costs money to develop software.    Look at EAGLE over the past 10 years.  There has been virtually no movement.   The updates have been trivial.     That is what you get when you don't have an active influx of money to pay people to work on a product.   I moved on at EAGLE 5 as the developers weren't doing anything with the tool.   It was obvious they didn't care to improve the product.   I would have gladly paid to get more features but Altium got my money instead and I haven't looked back.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: calexanian on January 20, 2017, 03:16:06 am
I can't remember. Is Auto Trax any good? It is certainly affordable.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 20, 2017, 03:23:22 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't care what happens after 14 days.  I care what happens after 10-15 years.  I use tools of that age all the time, from everyday text editing to instrumentation control. 

Autodesk will never guarantee that they will continue to validate licenses a decade or more from now.  Their lawyers would kill them, and only idiots would believe them.

Yes, other software works that way.  Photoshop?  Fine, plenty of other ways to edit .bmp files.  Windows?  Not happy about that, but at the end of the day (or the end of 10 years), they're not about to stop running .exe files.  EAGLE?  That's different.  No other software package will allow me to view, manipulate, maintain, and archive files created in EAGLE.  That places EAGLE in a special category, one that absolutely cannot be held hostage by a subscription server.

And then there's the way that SaaS packages tend to take control of the update schedule away from the user.  How many engineers want their CAD program to upgrade itself in the middle of a project?  None?  Well, how about hobbyists?  Any hobbyists want that?  No?  How about managers?  Any managers want that?  Hmm, OK, no, huh.  How about idiots?  Any idio... Wait, wait, don't rush the stage all at once.   There'll be plenty for everybody.  :palm:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 20, 2017, 03:37:32 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.

That 14 day part screwed me well and truly over, but that is simply because I think I'm in the minority of those who spend a fair bit of time in the middle of AU where there is either zero (or pretty close to that in terms of connectivity) for extended periods of time. 

While, I'm not jumping up and down *just* yet, these changes have have left me more than a bit nervous.  CAD Software is very much like religion, and that is for a very good reason - it takes a *huge* amount of time and effort to become comfortable and familiar with a tool (whether it is Altium, Eagle, KiCAD, DipCad, etc...), so naturally when a vendor decides to up and change the rules ... people get real excited ... *REAL* quick (I would image that it's the same for the FPGA/CPLD Dev software like ISE vs Vivaldi vs Quartus, etc). 

Autodesk has done a completely *CRAP* job on the licensing for this one ... in the same way that CadSOFT did a crap job with V5-V6 licensing changes a few years back. 

You would think that a vendor, if they are going to change the license, would have thought this one through completely.  Ok, this is what we are going to do.  Now, how do we communicate this effectively?  How to we handle the existing paid customer base so that we don't piss off our existing customer base.  How to do we handle the case where the new model *doesn't* fit an existing customer? 

So far, I've not seen this done (I've watched this on a few different forums) and all that we are left with is this little "gem" from Matt on the AutoDesk Community Eagle Forum:

---> CUT HERE <---
We'll provide an upgrade path to EAGLE v8.0 here very soon!  Expect an email about upgrades very soon.
 
Best regards,

Matt
---> END CUT <---

Now, this is from the same person who said that it won't be switching to a subscription model....   Yeah .... so lets' take this with a grain of salt. 

We watch with amusement .... they (Autodesk) can either make it or seriously break it with what they say next because if they screw it up, they will be giving up their niche that they carved out for themselves in the market, and Eagle just isn't the tool to go toe-to-toe with Altium. 


/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 20, 2017, 03:54:13 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't care what happens after 14 days.  I care what happens after 10-15 years.  I use tools of that age all the time, from everyday text editing to instrumentation control. 

Preventing from editing, but allowing you to open/view is one thing. 

Preventing from doing anything at all (for example ... evening opening) is quite another, and in the latter case, this unfortunately already happens.  For example ... if you are using certain Cypress PLD devices, you can no longer get hold of the WARP software needed to program them.  The same is for older AMD/Lattice parts.  I say this as someone who has had to support old devices, and even with the software, you are unable to use it due to the activation nature of it.  These bits of software really do hold you (and your designs) to ransom. 

Now, while SaaS in itself isn't necessarily *EVIL*, locking your data most definitely *is*.  There are no points of negotiation or debate there.  The problem is that if vendors continue to peddle their wares like this, and people continue to buy it, then it will continue to occur.  The only way it will change is if the market forces the vendors to change by not giving them any money.  It's as simple as that.  People continue to give them money, they will continue to do it.  If people stop giving them money, they will change their ways (or they will go broke). 

Now in this case (Eagle), they (AutoDesk) appear to allow you to open your files after your subscription expires, but you can't then change them.  I don't know if they prevent you from exporting/printing/etc.  If they did that, then it truly *would* be EVIL (and then as a company would need to die), but from my reading, that just isn't the case. 

So ... I don't consider them 100% evil .... YET .... 

The jury is out on this one though, so let's watch what they have to say in the very near future.  If nothing else it should be "interesting" .... 

/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2017, 06:27:10 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't care what happens after 14 days.  I care what happens after 10-15 years.  I use tools of that age all the time, from everyday text editing to instrumentation control. 
Autodesk will never guarantee that they will continue to validate licenses a decade or more from now.  Their lawyers would kill them, and only idiots would believe them.

Right.
Sure you can just buy a new license 10=15 years from now, but will it be compatible with your old files?
Presumably you won't be able to run the current (licence) version you are using in 15 years?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 20, 2017, 07:07:44 am
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't care what happens after 14 days.  I care what happens after 10-15 years.  I use tools of that age all the time, from everyday text editing to instrumentation control. 
Autodesk will never guarantee that they will continue to validate licenses a decade or more from now.  Their lawyers would kill them, and only idiots would believe them.

Right.
Sure you can just buy a new license 10=15 years from now, but will it be compatible with your old files?
Presumably you won't be able to run the current (licence) version you are using in 15 years?

In regard to license ... the current version uses an installer code, so if you have the install code, providing that the binaries will run, you *should* be in luck. 

In regard to file formats, I have a little more faith.  Remember that Eagle was one of the first (if not the first) to start using a more open document format (XML). 

Now in regard to actual file versions themselves are concerned though, yeah .... it is an issue ... even now it can be a problem. 

If you saved a library in <= v4 of Eagle and try to open it with anything other than Eagle 32bit under Windows or Linux it will puke all over your shoes.  The trick there is to open it with Eagle Windows 32bit and then save it, which then saves in the XML format, and then you can open it in the newer versions (which is one of the reasons I keep a version of Eagle for 32bit in a Windows XP VM). 

That does in no way detract from the problem that old stuff is a problem to deal with, and it isn't a problem that is limited to CAD software - you get it with all sorts of stuff (old spreadsheets such as Lotus, etc) - this from someone who not so recently had to deal with old Lotus spreadsheets for timings ....  (don't ask). 

/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Zom-B on January 20, 2017, 07:58:37 am
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.
Eagle has at least 100% sunk for our company, because we're a hardware security company and use physically separate networks (2 pc's per office seat), and moreover, the public networks use Ubuntu and isolated network Windows. Also, of course, no direct connection between PCs of different networks is ever allowed (only USB sticks/drives). We have a very small development group so we're definitly not going to pay for big licenses.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2017, 08:22:22 am
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.
Eagle has at least 100% sunk for our company, because we're a hardware security company and use physically separate networks (2 pc's per office seat), and moreover, the public networks use Ubuntu and isolated network Windows. Also, of course, no direct connection between PCs of different networks is ever allowed (only USB sticks/drives). We have a very small development group so we're definitly not going to pay for big licenses.

Yep, good point and quite common.

Guess what video I'm working on at the moment...  ;D
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: daqq on January 20, 2017, 08:23:58 am
Quote
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.
Well, subscription IS evil. Tell me how it benefits me, the customer?

As I understand it these are the differences between the models:
- I can't work offline for a longer period (which I occasionally need to)
- I can't work without paying for it even if I don't give a damn about some new turd polish
- I have to sign in because reasons


Here's my situation: Where I work we bought a few licenses for a design system (not Eagle). Over 10 years ago. We upgraded it once. The end. We were OK with the set of features provided, did not need or deemed the "new features" (read minor improvements/turd polish) worthy 1+k$/year/license. Had they this "awesome" mandatory subscription model, we would have payed around 30000$ more... assuming they did not "change the pricing to better reflect the current market conditions". We did not have to have an education every time they made some change.

I honestly don't care what kind of awesome new features you put into the software - if you bundle it with this kind of bullshit. Unless I'd have absolutely no other choice, I'll avoid a subscription based software like the plague 💩 . I honestly do not see any benefit from the customers' point of view to a mandatory subscription based system.

Oh, for bonus points: depending on how mandatory cloudy the software is I might not even have (reasonable) access to my files should:
- the company go tits up
- some managerial guru decides on some "awesome new model" that involves screwing the customer in a new and original way
- the Internet's down/laggy/slow
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: IanJ on January 20, 2017, 09:47:27 am
Hi all,

A little playing with my PC date and wifi connection and here it is.
Playing with the PC date afterwards doesn't fix things, the only thing that does appear to work is leaving Eagle running, i.e. the check only happens as you launch Eagle.

Ian.

(http://www.ianjohnston.com/images/stories/IanJ/eevblog/EAGLE.png)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: valgamaa on January 20, 2017, 09:51:30 am
I have been with Eagle through several major version upgrades, and been happy to pay the upgrade price each time. Major releases don't come along that often, and the upgrade price has been fair. The new pricing model ratchets the price up significantly - beyond the value I place on the software, compared with the many alternatives that try to persuade me to switch each week. I bet that most of the competitors will be offering great deals to switch over the next couple of months, Autodesk has given them all a late Christmas present.
One point that hasn't been discussed here is which regions will Autodesk choose to sell to? I clicked on the subscribe button to find that, even if I WANT to give them money, they won't sell in the country I live in. This looks like an amicable divorce to me; I don't want subscription-based software, and they wouldn't sell it to me anyway.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 20, 2017, 11:56:00 am
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE. EAGLE has grown more in the last three months under Autodesk then it did in three years with Farnell.

All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

Since Autodesk has put a show stopper in place all the exciting new features don't matter at all. And Eagle is only a semi-professional tool. It lacks several features, a few were just added in the last years while other tools had them for more than 15 years, and some stuff is simply :palm:. So the subscription fee isn't in proportion to the value Eagle offers. Companies with ever-changing demands like subscription models, because they don't risk unused licenses. But there are also companies prefering the old standard licence and not being forced to be cloudified. And if you have an isolated R&D network to protect your IP, which should be standard, you can't run any software requiring an internet connection. Has Autodesk heard of about contingency plans? Companies also think long-term and are asking themselves what will happen with the software and - more importantly - with the data when a software company shuts down their servers. For this kind of requirements a subscription model is an absolute no-go. Maybe Autodesk will realise this all when they see sales numbers dropping.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 20, 2017, 02:01:08 pm

One point that hasn't been discussed here is which regions will Autodesk choose to sell to? I clicked on the subscribe button to find that, even if I WANT to give them money, they won't sell in the country I live in.
Here's another thought, prompted by my recent discovery that Digikey need software export paperwork to be able to use their device programming service - let's suppose some batshit-crazy US president decides to tighten export controls so US companies are no longer allowed to export  technical design software to certain countries.
With a subscription model , Autodesk would be forced to stop access to existing subscribers.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgriggs on January 20, 2017, 03:20:04 pm
Check out this post by user macegr over at Hackaday (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/comment-page-2/#comment-3371325 (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/comment-page-2/#comment-3371325)):

Paragraph 1.2.1 in your EULA says we can’t downgrade to our legacy versions after upgrading to Eagle 8.0. It says that our old license is no longer valid and that if Autodesk requests it, we are to provide proof that we have returned or destroyed any copy of the previous software. What are your thoughts? Please note that if this is not true for Eagle, we’ll need to see an amended EULA because your comments on a blog will not hold the necessary legal weight. http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

Here is the text from the EULA posted at the link above by macegr (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)):

“1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.”

This is extremely concerning and very user hostile. Nothing about the EULA is in the user’s best interest, it’s completely one-sided. This emphasizes the point that EAGLE user’s should NOT support Autodesk and their one-side subscription based licensing model.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: philpem on January 20, 2017, 03:36:48 pm
Check out this post by user macegr over at Hackaday (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/comment-page-2/#comment-3371325 (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/comment-page-2/#comment-3371325)):

Paragraph 1.2.1 in your EULA says we can’t downgrade to our legacy versions after upgrading to Eagle 8.0. It says that our old license is no longer valid and that if Autodesk requests it, we are to provide proof that we have returned or destroyed any copy of the previous software. What are your thoughts? Please note that if this is not true for Eagle, we’ll need to see an amended EULA because your comments on a blog will not hold the necessary legal weight. http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

Here is the text from the EULA posted at the link above by macegr (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)):

“1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.”

This is extremely concerning and very user hostile. Nothing about the EULA is in the user’s best interest, it’s completely one-sided. This emphasizes the point that EAGLE user’s should NOT support Autodesk and their one-side subscription based licensing model.

I guess that's so that if you, for instance, bought Autocad 10 and then bought an upgrade from 10 to 11, you can't then sell your copy of AC10 to someone else.  Not that Autocad is still a current product, it's just an example because that's the only non-EAGLE Autodesk product I can name  -- hooray for market penetration! (and other types of penetration?) ;D

The question for the lawyers to argue over is, does this apply to a subscription licence, and if so, how?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 20, 2017, 03:39:44 pm
Analogies are generally horrible, but I think this is a pretty appropriate one:

I buy my cars. I have and maintain them for as long as I want to keep them. I've been buying my cars from one brand over the years, trading in my old one for a new model because it was powerful enough and affordable (even if it was ugly and used a square steeringwheel). This brand was the best option as the nearest competing brands were 3x more money. Now my brand has decided to only lease vehicles. I can trade in my old car, but if I do so, I'm putting in equal dollars to rent something I don't own. There isn't any assurance the new car will run, if it breaks down and dies off I'll be shit-out-of-luck, and I can't get my old but known-working car back. No matter what, at the end of the lease, they'll take back the car and I'm left with nothing.

This, is somehow what autodesk considers value when the fellow whines about 'people are saying subscriptions = evil,' well when you provide less value than the older product and uphold that as improvement you're going to get called out. "But features!"/"because reasons!" - I don't care. This is no different than politicians making political promises. It works for people who have no skin in the game, but for the rest of us we work with what we can touch. You can fix the clunky UI of Eagle, but don't call it a value when the cost is kicking me in the balls every time I take advantage of the feature. I'm certain the people at Autodesk have taken the same Solution Selling or similar training that goes around the major firms. You win through solving a customer's pain, not through creating new pain.

All this new scheme does, is introduce more pain to use Eagle. It is an anti-value. Many of us are now making evaluations and coming to the conclusion that the pain Autodesk is forcing on the customer exceeds the pain of learning an entirely new cad package. Off to something else.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rob77 on January 20, 2017, 03:53:28 pm
hmm... interesting change to the  licensing model... actually i'm a eagle user , using that Make edition (160x100mm, 6layers, 99 schematic). technically speaking i have absolutely no issue to switch to subscription model and i have absolutely no issue to pay 15$ per month... but i will not because they limited the 15$ version to 2 layers... and i simply will NOT pay 65$ per month to get 4 layers.
i used to be a happy eagle user, but now i really don't know what i'm going to do.... actually i know.. i will use the latest version of eagle which is working with my perpetual license and for the future i'll definitely switch to a different software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 20, 2017, 03:57:31 pm
Dear Autodesk,

THANK YOU for switching to a subscription model. This will ensure continuous development and support for Eagle. My license will be affected by this change, but I think it's a great move overall for all the obvious reasons.

 :-+

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 20, 2017, 04:00:36 pm
As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

I remember all of those automakers going bankrupt until the ones who survived switched to lease-only cars. Sad times that.
I remember all of those scope makers going bankrupt until the ones who survived switched to lease-only scopes. Sad times that.
I remember all of those <tangible product> manufacturers going bankrupt until the ones who survived switched to lease-only <tangible product>. Sad times that.
etc.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rob77 on January 20, 2017, 04:19:42 pm
Dear Autodesk,

THANK YOU for switching to a subscription model. This will ensure continuous development and support for Eagle. My license will be affected by this change, but I think it's a great move overall for all the obvious reasons.

 :-+

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...

i would like to switch to the subscription model as well... but they simply don't offer a subscription equivalent to my current license.... if they would make the 15$/month subscription to have 4 layers, then i would be in.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: JonnyH on January 20, 2017, 06:07:48 pm
I'm surprised that no one noticed this little crap-bomb in the license agreement (below, long, quoted)

In short, at least according to my reading, it means that Autodesk can upload any user data in the background without notification, use it for their purposes and/or provide it to third parties and affiliates, for any purpose. While I'm certain that it doesn't mean that they have any rights to your designs, it does mean (again, according to my reading) that they're taking your data, including design data, and monetizing in some respect. And it means that your data is (potentially) no longer in your sole possession, and possibly by unnamed entities that may not treat the data as well as Autodesk would.

To be fair, it doesn't mean that they will do this. But they are retaining that right. Not cool. Makes Eagle a non-starter in my org.

Quote
4. Privacy; Use of Information; Connectivity

4.1 Privacy and Use of Information. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that Licensee (and third parties acting on Licensee’s behalf) may provide, and Autodesk and its Resellers (and third parties acting on behalf of Autodesk and its Resellers) may obtain, certain information and data with respect to Licensee (including, without limitation, personal information) and Licensee’s business in connection with this Agreement, including, without limitation, information and data provided to or obtained by Autodesk and its Resellers (or third parties acting on behalf of Autodesk and its Resellers) through the Customer Information Form and otherwise, in connection with ordering, registration, activation, updating, validating entitlement to, auditing, monitoring Installation of and Access to Autodesk Materials, Relationship Programs and Services and managing the relationship with Licensee. Licensee hereby consents to Autodesk maintaining, using, storing and disclosing such information and data (including, without limitation, personal information, if any) in conformity with Autodesk’s policies on privacy and data protection, as such policies may be updated from time to time, including without limitation Autodesk’s Privacy Statement, as currently located at http://usa.autodesk.com/privacy/. (http://usa.autodesk.com/privacy/.) Without limitation of the generality of the foregoing, Licensee acknowledges and agrees that: (a) Autodesk may from time to time prompt Licensee (and third parties acting on Licensee’s behalf) to provide express agreement to the terms of Autodesk’s Privacy Statement and/or express agreement to specific uses of information and data (including, without limitation, personal information); (b) Autodesk may provide information and data, including, without limitation, information and data about Licensee’s use of Autodesk Materials, Relationship Programs, and Licensee’s support requests, to Autodesk subsidiaries and affiliates, Resellers and other third parties in connection with the provision, maintenance, administration or usage of Licensed Materials, Relationship Programs or Services or in connection with enforcement of any agreements relating to Licensed Materials, Relationship Programs or Services; and (c) Autodesk may make cross-border transfers of such information and data, including to jurisdictions with privacy or data protection laws that are less protective of Licensee than the jurisdiction in which Licensee is domiciled. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that such policies may be changed from time to time by Autodesk and that, effective upon posting on Autodesk’s website or other written notice from Autodesk, Licensee will be subject to such changes.

4.2 Connectivity. Certain Licensed Materials may facilitate or require Licensee’s access to and use of content and services that are hosted on websites maintained by Autodesk or by third parties. In some cases, such content and services may appear to be a feature or function within, or extension of, the Licensed Materials on Licensee’s Computer even though hosted on such websites. Accessing such content or services and use of Licensed Materials may cause Licensee’s Computer, without additional notice, to connect automatically to the Internet (transitorily, intermittently or on a regular basis) and to communicate with an Autodesk or third-party website—for example, for purposes of providing Licensee with additional information, features and functionality or to validate that the Licensed Materials and/or content or services are being used as permitted under this Agreement or other applicable terms. Such connectivity to Autodesk websites is governed by Autodesk’s policies on privacy and data protection described in this Section 4 (Privacy; Use of Information; Connectivity). Such connectivity to websites of third parties is governed by the terms (including the disclaimers and notices) found on such sites or otherwise associated with the third-party content or services. Autodesk does not control, endorse, or accept responsibility for any such third-party content or services, and any dealings between Licensee and any third party in connection with such content or services, including, without limitation, such third party’s privacy policies, use of personal information, delivery of and payment for goods and services, and any other terms associated with such dealings, are solely between Licensee and such third party. Autodesk may at any time, for any reason, modify or discontinue the availability of any third-party content or services. Access to and use of certain content and services (whether of Autodesk or third parties) may require assent to separate terms and/or payment of additional fees.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: valgamaa on January 20, 2017, 06:22:25 pm

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...

I don't think anyone has suggested that Autodesk shouldn't make a profit. The new model is a massive change from what was originally promised, so not surprisingly that has irritated people.
Count yourself lucky that you can shut your pie hole and subscribe - there are a number of countries they simply won't sell the subscription at any price.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 20, 2017, 06:34:20 pm
7.7 is going to be a popular version for a long time.
Olders versions are available here.
ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/
for now...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgriggs on January 20, 2017, 06:39:27 pm
Dear Autodesk,

THANK YOU for switching to a subscription model. This will ensure continuous development and support for Eagle. My license will be affected by this change, but I think it's a great move overall for all the obvious reasons.

 :-+

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...

This is an extremely counter productive post to your argument and is also quite rude. The problem is not with Autodesk making money on Eagle as a product or fairly paying their developers for their time and effort to make improvements. It's about the change to the licensing model and how it affects longtime Eagle users. I truly support paying a fair price for Eagle but I want a perpetual license that doesn't phone-home.  I'm more then willing to pay a fair yearly fee for a maintenance upgrade so long as the license is perpetual. I don't support subscription based licensing because it makes me dependent on the software provider. I want to own the things I purchase. This may be a foreign concept to you, or maybe you just don't care, but I assure you many of us do value ownership and the lack of reliance on a third-party to use the products we purchase. Please think next time before you post.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: 2N3055 on January 20, 2017, 08:16:08 pm
Excerpt from license:

""..  (c) Autodesk may make cross-border transfers of such information and data, including to jurisdictions with privacy or data protection laws that are less protective of Licensee than the jurisdiction in which Licensee is domiciled. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that such policies may be changed from time to time by Autodesk and that, effective upon posting on Autodesk’s website or other written notice from Autodesk, Licensee will be subject to such changes...."

This part here is outright illegal in EU.......

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: calmtron on January 20, 2017, 09:04:11 pm
Thank you Autodesk, that was the motivation needed to finally start porting my parts library to KiCad and make the switch!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 20, 2017, 09:40:55 pm
Dear Autodesk,

THANK YOU for switching to a subscription model. This will ensure continuous development and support for Eagle. My license will be affected by this change, but I think it's a great move overall for all the obvious reasons.

 :-+

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...

This is an extremely counter productive post to your argument and is also quite rude. The problem is not with Autodesk making money on Eagle as a product or fairly paying their developers for their time and effort to make improvements. It's about the change to the licensing model and how it affects longtime Eagle users. I truly support paying a fair price for Eagle but I want a perpetual license that doesn't phone-home.  I'm more then willing to pay a fair yearly fee for a maintenance upgrade so long as the license is perpetual. I don't support subscription based licensing because it makes me dependent on the software provider. I want to own the things I purchase. This may be a foreign concept to you, or maybe you just don't care, but I assure you many of us do value ownership and the lack of reliance on a third-party to use the products we purchase. Please think next time before you post.

Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice. For the few times that most non-professional users will need full-blown Eagle, $65 per month for however long you need it (and $0/mo when you don't) beats the shit out of the previous $1700 perpetual license.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money. $65/mo for what will surely become a class-leading tool, is a bargain. $15/mo or $100/yr is a great price point at the bottom end.

I've used Autodesk's 360 licensing scheme for years now. I can tell you flat out that the fears and concerns are wildly overblown. Yes, there will be problems. Just as there are problems with any licensing model.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 20, 2017, 09:49:32 pm
If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective.

Cadsoft not really responding to market needs for improvement is why they got sold twice. This is independent of their licensing model. If Autocad released a product on the license model you enjoy, but never changed the product in ways that mattered for years on end, they would suffer the exact same fate. You have not made a compelling argument of how this is an improvement. You've simply restated a preference. Having a preference is fine. Using that as a basis of argument to dismiss actual, legitimate, complaints, is laughable.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 20, 2017, 10:03:00 pm

Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice. For the few times that most non-professional users will need full-blown Eagle, $65 per month for however long you need it (and $0/mo when you don't) beats the shit out of the previous $1700 perpetual license.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money. $65/mo for what will surely become a class-leading tool, is a bargain. $15/mo or $100/yr is a great price point at the bottom end.

I've used Autodesk's 360 licensing scheme for years now. I can tell you flat out that the fears and concerns are wildly overblown. Yes, there will be problems. Just as there are problems with any licensing model.

The flaw with this reasoning is that Eagle is not currently a class-leading tool. Its niche has been the maker/small business space, and its customers have neither the need nor the financial means to afford a best-in-class tool.

Maybe the market isn't strong enough to support such a product. Fine, we'll stick to KiCad. That doesn't mean they aren't trying to turn Eagle's popularity into a cash cow (which by the way is what they promised the world they wouldn't do).

As for Autodesk's ambitions on taking over this market, time will tell... as it stands, I think big business is going to stick with the current leader.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 20, 2017, 10:20:13 pm
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.

Enjoy life as a sharecropper, then, as long as it lasts.  Autodesk has already lied to you once, but I'm sure it was only a one-time mistake on their part.

Quote
If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.

No, what doesn't work is trying to sell the same software for years at a time with minuscule incremental changes from one version to the next.  On the rare occasions when CadSoft introduced new features, they tended to deliver half-assed hacks, such as "modules" that could be reused only at the schematic level. 

Quote
Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money.

The problem wasn't so much, "There was no money," but "There was no value."  CadSoft tried to capture more value than they contributed, and the market rebuffed them, as markets tend to do.  Now Autodesk gets to learn the same lesson.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: stuartk on January 20, 2017, 10:45:54 pm
The problem for me is loosing the 6 layer functionality in the hobbyist version. I purchased the hobby version 6.50 for $169 which gave me the ability to make 4 layer boards. Now I would have to upgrade to the premium subscription at $500 per year to make 4 layer boards which is just not worth it for me. I could see my self shelling out another $169 for version 8, but I refused to be locked into endless subscription pricing for something that I can get with 5 other programs.

What if I were leave Eagle for another program and I would want to reference one of my own designs 10 years from now? I would have to re-subscribe to access my own intellectual property!

There are certain types of software where a subscription might make more sense, especially in compilers where companies might add certain functionality to a toolchain upon request. If you are locked into a certain software environment then subscriptions are a good thing as they help the company that you depend upon, survive. None of us actually depend upon Eagle, which is why this is a bone headed move.

Sorry Eagle. version 6.50 works fine and I'm going to hold onto my money.

Good luck,

Stuart
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on January 20, 2017, 10:54:23 pm
...
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.
...
Well, clearly Microsoft, Adobe, Intuit, etc., etc. have historically been complete and utter failures selling software with perpetual licensing.

Cadsoft's problem was that they didn't continue to enhance the product to remain competitive with other packages.  Their claim is that they can do this now that they have access to hoards of cash from subscribers.

If that is indeed the case, then they weren't charging enough for their perpetual licenses to plow enough back into development to keep pace with customer needs.  And giving away untold numbers of free versions didn't help that business model.  It increased popularity, no question, but also put additional burden on their technical support.

I, for one, would have no problem paying more for a perpetual license if the features I wanted were there (and to be clear: does not *ever* phone home).

I don't see any reason why both licensing models couldn't co-exist.  If I were them I would be enabling both licensing models to gain as much acceptance in the community as possible, for both occasional subscriber users and long-term users who need to minimize outside dependencies.  And even if it was for a transition period of a couple of years, they would at least have real data on how Eagle users prefer their licensing.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 20, 2017, 11:54:11 pm
Thank Cadsoft for perpetual licensing, allowing existing license holders to keep hold of their version!

Their pricing model might be fine for the occasional user, and cheaper, but if you are using the pro version full time, eventually, it will cost you more.

Meh, we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: nazcalines on January 21, 2017, 12:23:35 am
I upgraded to version 7 Eagle Pro last year. If I knew they were going to a subscription model, I would've migrated to KiCAD instead and saved $$$. Right now my copy of Eagle has everything I need, so it looks like I'll be seeing just how long it lasts. With a little luck I'm guessing I can get 10+ years out of the current version 7. By then maybe KiCAD will be nicely polished.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 12:25:25 am
SOmeone said on Yotuube:
Quote
You can't go back to your original license... the fine print says the old license, regardless of the remainder of the term, will become invalid 120 days after initiation of a subscription.?

Haven't verified it...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: sd on January 21, 2017, 12:29:04 am
Altium Designer Standalone license sound pretty good. Thanks Autodesk!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 01:22:08 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Monkeh on January 21, 2017, 01:28:23 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 01:30:42 am
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.

Enjoy life as a sharecropper, then, as long as it lasts.  Autodesk has already lied to you once, but I'm sure it was only a one-time mistake on their part.

Sharecropper?  Lied?!

Management changed their mind. Autodesk not releasing Eagle on a subscription basis was simply wishful thinking.

As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

Be happy in your victory. Eagle will live on and be better than ever. It's going to cost more, but we'll all get more.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 21, 2017, 01:44:01 am
SOmeone said on Yotuube:
Quote
You can't go back to your original license... the fine print says the old license, regardless of the remainder of the term, will become invalid 120 days after initiation of a subscription.?

Haven't verified it...

From the AutoDESK Licensing URL provided by Jorge...

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

From 1.2.1 ... quoted below:

1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.


That means according to their own licensing agreement, if you upgrade to v8, any prior license then needs to be removed, *unless* they specifically give you a waiver to this (knowing AutoDesk the way I do ... I would want that in writing). 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 02:00:46 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.

Steady paychecks are good for software engineers and their families. Behind the facade of the evil, corporate empire are people, just like you and me.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 21, 2017, 02:01:20 am

One point that hasn't been discussed here is which regions will Autodesk choose to sell to? I clicked on the subscribe button to find that, even if I WANT to give them money, they won't sell in the country I live in.
Here's another thought, prompted by my recent discovery that Digikey need software export paperwork to be able to use their device programming service - let's suppose some batshit-crazy US president decides to tighten export controls so US companies are no longer allowed to export  technical design software to certain countries.
With a subscription model , Autodesk would be forced to stop access to existing subscribers.

That is actually a *very* good point for *any* SaaS subscription ... not just this one.  I'd just *love* to hear how AutoDesk would dance around that one if asked, because we had issues with AutoCAD Map license years ago when I was working in Indonesia due to export restricts regarding crypto at the time....


/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: texaspyro on January 21, 2017, 02:53:56 am
I'd say 80% of the outside design work I do have little ditties in the contracts that say NO development to be done on net connected systems.  New Eagle requires a net connection to keep working.  Also the EULA seems to say they can slurp your designs at will and ship them off to who knows who/where.   Autocad seems to be totally un-aware of the rabid IP protection that companies require these days.

I don't know how many sales Eagle has made off my recommendations / work (I suspect quite a few)...  but that revenue is going to stop.  There's basically no way I can use or recommend the new version of Eagle. So long Eagle... it's been a nice ride.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 21, 2017, 02:58:42 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.

Steady paychecks are good for software engineers and their families. Behind the facade of the evil, corporate empire are people, just like you and me.

I have to agree with you on this one ... BUT ...  companies will always attempt to maximise profits from any give product - even if it is at the expense of user freedom. 

A healthy company typically is good for a product - especially when there is competition.  In this regard, the improvements to the Altium offerings I think have been largely due to the fact that Eagle was actually acquired by AutoDesk.  I have no doubt that when that happened, it was a huge kick in the bum for Altium, and that I think is actually a GoodThing (Tm). 

A company should be entitled to make a profit from it's product - even more so if it's good and they are continuing to develop and improve it. 

It the "how they go about it" part that usually leaves quite a few of us uncomfortable .... either on a basis of principle, or due to *what* we do, *how* we do it, or *where* we do it. 

... and often ... we don't get to choose those ....

So, how vendors change their method of subscription can have a big impact on whether we can/can't use a specific tool based on the handcuffs that they put on us in their attempts to extract the most amount of money from a product.  If they choose to change the rules, under which we work, and make it infeasible, then it is not just the outright cost of changing the tool, but it is also the time it takes to come up to speed with a new one.  People think of outright cost, but rarely do they think of the "time" factor involved to become familiar with a new tool - let alone any automation that they may have already added in order to become "efficient" with a tool. 

So ... CAD tools are really like "religion" ... and when the vendors force us to change, because they want to extract the last dollar from them with their new pricing/operating model, it's at this point that the users are more than entitled to get a little bit bitchy. 

/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 21, 2017, 03:13:49 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 03:43:56 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!

Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.

Walking away from Eagle is readily done. But that Altium license starts at a grand. All up front.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 03:54:15 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.
What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:
Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.
Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!
Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.
Walking away from Eagle is readily done.

Walking away form a dev tool is never easy.
It:
a) Takes time
b) Takes effort

Iaeen has a very good point. With the previous perpetual license you can simply protest any company changes etc by not buying the new version that comes out. And you pay zero penalty for doing that.
With the new subscription model if you want to protest then your tool stops working instantly you stop paying! You can't just continue on with business as usual using the tool like you can with a perpetual license, you now have the pain of switching to another tool. And you have to go through that pain until the company fixed the problem and then go back through the pain of switching back again when you are happy with them again.
No way subscription is a better tool than a perpetual license for protesting how a company does things.

You are right in that it's possible to change, but you are not thinking about the consequences of doing that.

Altium is a classic example of this. A huge number of people kept on using Protel 99SE for more than decade! Altium had to try and convince these customers to update to the latest version a decade after it came out, it made the company work hard for it and that's a good thing.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 21, 2017, 03:55:23 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!

Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.

Walking away from Eagle is readily done. But that Altium license starts at a grand. All up front.

Yeah, okay. Maybe you can still get at your files. That doesn't make your gushing over this any less absurd.

This has nothing to do with empowering users. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on January 21, 2017, 04:00:52 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Subscription models work for everyone when there is continual added value.  Otherwise you are just paying an ever increasing price for the same product.

I have not purchased a new copy of MS Office since they went subscription.  I have not seen anything significant added in the new versions.  As MS upgrades their operating system they are degrading the usability of my old product.  Which is why I am finally transitioning to Libre Office.  When MS initiates their plan for Windows 10 as a subscription service it will undoubtedly trigger my complete transition to Linux.

Both the OS and the Office products have tried to mask the limited or non-existent increase in functionality by making substantial changes in the user interface.  While these changes are touted as big improvements they haven't objectively demonstrated the improvement.

The fundamental problem is that in a saturated market a licensing model is the only way for a company to continue to make make money.  And most software markets are saturated these days.  That is bad for the software companies and bad for customers.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 04:05:20 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.
What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:
Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.
Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!
Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.
Walking away from Eagle is readily done.

Walking away form a dev tool is never easy.
It:
a) Takes time
b) Takes effort

Iaeen has a very good point. With the previous perpetual license you can simply protest any company changes etc by not buying the new version that comes out. And you pay zero penalty for doing that.
With the new subscription model if you want to protest then your tool stops working instantly you stop paying! You can't just continue on with business as usual using the tool like you can with a perpetual license.

The tool stops when your subscription period expires, not immediately upon cancellation. There's also nothing to say one couldn't drop Eagle and do a two or three month transition to another platform.

Honestly, all the vitriol from the maker community at every, single software platform they interact with ought to be a lesson to software companies everywhere to stop bothering to the maker/hobbiest market at all. There is no pleasing this user group. I'd honestly advise Autodesk just abandon the low-end options and focus on the unserved market: small business and startups for whom an efficient tool for $65/mo is a no brainer. At least one of them might actually say, "thank you."
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 04:06:25 am
The fundamental problem is that in a saturated market a licensing model is the only way for a company to continue to make make money.  And most software markets are saturated these days.  That is bad for the software companies and bad for customers.

Companies (especially public one) love subscription and the steady income it brings. Altium (being a public company) were obsessed with getting every customer onto subscription. And if you read their yearly company reports etc this was obvious.
http://www.altium.com.au/company/investor-relations/publications-and-reports/annual-reports (http://www.altium.com.au/company/investor-relations/publications-and-reports/annual-reports)
And presentations like this :
http://www.altium.com.au/resources/investor-announcement/altium_ltd_fy16_full_year_presentation_24_aug_2016.pdf (http://www.altium.com.au/resources/investor-announcement/altium_ltd_fy16_full_year_presentation_24_aug_2016.pdf)
Subscription is about half of Altium's income stream.

(http://i.imgur.com/Lb3NYyt.png)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 04:14:17 am
The tool stops when your subscription period expires, not immediately upon cancellation. There's also nothing to say one couldn't drop Eagle and do a two or three month transition to another platform.

But the point is that does not lesson the pain of doing so. So it is not nearly as good a tool to "hold their feet to the fire" with compared to a perpetual license. This is a demonstrable fact.
I'd much rather have my perpetual license and say to them:
"Ok, prove to me your new version is worth the upgrade, I've got nothing to lose, I can keep on using my old version forever, no skin off my nose"
than have to threaten them and say:
"I'm going to stop my subscription move to another tool if your next version isn't good".

If you say the later they are going to just laugh in your face and say to themselves "go right ahead, we dare you, we know how much pain it is to change".
I worked at a PCB tool company and I know that's the effective truth.
It's the pain of changing tools that let Altium get away with inflicting countless horrible changes on their customer base over a 15 year period.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 04:22:14 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!

Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.

Walking away from Eagle is readily done. But that Altium license starts at a grand. All up front.

Yeah, okay. Maybe you can still get at your files. That doesn't make your gushing over this any less absurd.

This has nothing to do with empowering users. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

My "gushing" is based on being a 25+ year Autodesk user. They've been around that long because they produce a quality tools. They have made mistakes to be sure, but they usually come around to do the right thing. It's pretty likely they'll beat Eagle into shape. What they need to do that is a steady revenue stream. Subscriptions are the way to beat the feast/famine budget cycle and maintain a core development team.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: nazcalines on January 21, 2017, 04:24:02 am
The tool stops when your subscription period expires, not immediately upon cancellation. There's also nothing to say one couldn't drop Eagle and do a two or three month transition to another platform.

Honestly, all the vitriol from the maker community at every, single software platform they interact with ought to be a lesson to software companies everywhere to stop bothering to the maker/hobbiest market at all. There is no pleasing this user group. I'd honestly advise Autodesk just abandon the low-end options and focus on the unserved market: small business and startups for whom an efficient tool for $65/mo is a no brainer. At least one of them might actually say, "thank you."

I've purchased several Eagle licenses going back 12+ years, most recently version 7 Professional license. That's the last time I spend a dime on Eagle unless Autodesk adds a perpetual license. The subscription model adds no value whatsoever for me, in fact for my business it's a huge negative. I suspect many small businesses will be holding out with version 7 for as long as possible. If I were picking a CAD program today, Eagle would not be considered.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 04:31:08 am
The tool stops when your subscription period expires, not immediately upon cancellation. There's also nothing to say one couldn't drop Eagle and do a two or three month transition to another platform.

But the point is that does not lesson the pain of doing so. So it is not nearly as good a tool to "hold their feet to the fire" with compared to a perpetual license. This is a demonstrable fact.
I'd much rather have my perpetual license and say to them:
"Ok, prove to me your new version is worth the upgrade, I've got nothing to lose, I can keep on using my old version forever, no skin off my nose"
than have to threaten them and say:
"I'm going to stop my subscription move to another tool if your next version isn't good".

If you say the later they are going to just laugh in your face and say to themselves "go right ahead, we dare you, we know how much pain it is to change".
I worked at a PCB tool company and I know that's the effective truth.
It's the pain of changing tools that let Altium get away with inflicting countless horrible changes on their customer base over a 15 year period.

Altium can get away with that, and I've certainly seen that type of hostage taking attitude before. One of Eagle's prime values is in having a file format others can directly read. If Autodesk walks away from that, they will have issues to be sure. Here in the states, Eagle and OSHPARK are like peanut butter and jelly. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 21, 2017, 04:34:00 am
With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest.

I'm fairly sure you haven't thought this through quite as far as you claim you have.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 04:37:51 am
With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest.

I'm fairly sure you haven't thought this through quite as far as you claim you have.

I've thought this through enough to really rile you guys up.  :-DD
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: nazcalines on January 21, 2017, 04:45:58 am
With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest.

I'm fairly sure you haven't thought this through quite as far as you claim you have.

I've thought this through enough to really rile you guys up.  :-DD

No you haven't. What you are saying is the opposite of the reality of the situation. If you're just here to  :blah: then that's kinda sad, but ok.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 21, 2017, 04:52:44 am
With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest.

I'm fairly sure you haven't thought this through quite as far as you claim you have.

I've thought this through enough to really rile you guys up.  :-DD

No you haven't. What you are saying is the opposite of the reality of the situation. If you're just here to  :blah: then that's kinda sad, but ok.

Listen, I'm really pleased to see Eagle live on and improve.  You don't like counter-points, and that's fine.  I hereby return this thread to you all for continued anger, angst, and outrage about the actions of a company that makes software a lot of folks actually like.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 05:00:22 am
Listen, I'm really pleased to see Eagle live on and improve.

I'm sure we all are. No one wants to hate on them or see them fail for the sake of it I'm sure. The community is simply responding to a big change they have made.

Quote
You don't like counter-points, and that's fine.

We like counter points, that's what forum discussions are for. But if your counter point is without merit or just plain wrong, don't be surprised when that's pointed out to you and it's shot down in flames.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2017, 05:02:29 am
I hereby return this thread to you all for continued anger, angst, and outrage about the actions of a company that makes software a lot of folks actually like.

What's the later go to do with the former?
People are complaining about a big change that affects them.
Why should they be able to do that?
You can complain about a company and/or product and still like it, they aren't mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 21, 2017, 06:45:37 am

Listen, I'm really pleased to see Eagle live on and improve.  You don't like counter-points, and that's fine.  I hereby return this thread to you all for continued anger, angst, and outrage about the actions of a company that makes software a lot of folks actually like.

I noticed you failed to handle any counterpoints presented to you when your non-arguments got disposed of. Not that you could, of course.


What's the later go to do with the former?
People are complaining about a big change that affects them.
Why should they be able to do that?
You can complain about a company and/or product and still like it, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Absolutely nothing. He lost the argument some time ago, so all he has to go on now is stirring the pot.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2017, 09:23:11 am

The flaw with this reasoning is that Eagle is not currently a class-leading tool. Its niche has been the maker/small business space, and its customers have neither the need nor the financial means to afford a best-in-class tool.

I think this is the key problem. I've not used Eagle but my understanding is its main attractive feature is being free, and people only buy the non-free version because it's what they know.
So where 's the ongoing future market ?
Anyone starting out from scratch (or deciding how to transition form Free Eagle) is probably going to take a very hard look at Kicad and alternatives like Designspark, Diptrace etc. I've not used Kicad but seeing what people have done with it, it must be pretty useable and it can only get better.
Many existing paying Eagle users will probably subscribe.
Unless they do some very major improvements to make it much more attractive to new users than Kicad, I think they have a rather stagnant and diminishing user base.

Question for people who have used a reasonable number of PCB packages - given a choice based purely on UI and features, not price, how many would choose Eagle?

Given what they must have paid for Eagle, I wonder if they could have got more value by writing something completely new with world-beating features, rather than inheriting a lot of legacy baggage. 

Comparisons have been made to Fusion360, but from what I've seen this is a class-leading tool which offers way more for the money than anything else on the market - as & when I have a need for serious 3D design I wouldn't hesitate to subscribe.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 21, 2017, 09:35:38 am
Don't forget the time and thus money it will take to go to another softwarepackage.
I personally think that people will stick with their old perpetual version till they really can not anymore, such as that the OS does not run it properly anymore.
One thing all Eagle users are already used to is that it does not have state of the art tech, there were not many valuable updates or significant improvements, so the current version can stil last a decade. Time enough to slowly transfer somewhere else, leaving Autodesk with no customers and no income.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2017, 09:46:33 am
Don't forget the time and thus money it will take to go to another softwarepackage.
I personally think that people will stick with their old perpetual version till they really can not anymore, such as that the OS does not run it properly anymore.
One thing all Eagle users are already used to is that it does not have state of the art tech, there were not many valuable updates or significant improvements, so the current version can stil last a decade. Time enough to slowly transfer somewhere else, leaving Autodesk with no customers and no income.
Another good point. PCB software has little need to be updated to be useable - PCBs today are no different to PCBs 10 years ago except possibly in scale. I still use a 10 year old package and there isn't much I find lacking, certainly not enough to invest time in learning a whole new package.
3D integration is about the only major thing that has happened in the PCB market in recent years, and many users can happily live without it.

It's hard to see what Autodesk could do in the way of new features on top of the baggage they've inherited to make it attractive enough to new users for them to invest in it. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkS on January 21, 2017, 10:23:48 am
Honestly, all the vitriol from the maker community at every, single software platform they interact with ought to be a lesson to software companies everywhere to stop bothering to the maker/hobbiest market at all.

If you do not understand this, then I really do not know what to say. The Maker/Hobbyist communities are the ones that have been served by Eagle since its inception. It has been the only affordable option for many people like myself. Even the Pro license was a fraction of the cost of pretty much anyone else. I cannot afford $500 per year. Truth be told, I cannot afford $65 per month. I would have saved for the Pro license, but not that is not an option. I'm stuck with a gimped free version of Eagle and KiCAD sucks balls. (KiCAD developers - If you're reading this, copy Eagle's interface. Seriously. KiCAD is a mess. But that's another thread.)

The issue here is that AutoDesk is abandoning Eagle's base in the hope that they can attract a more professional clientele. They do not understand what Eagle brought to the table, do not seem to know what Eagle's base has been, did not ask anyone and seem to simply not care. Those of us that have been served best by Eagle are now finding ourselves in an impossible situation with no real, usable alternatives. It is really hard to feel a whole lot of love for a company that pulls the rug out from under you and doesn't care.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 21, 2017, 11:16:37 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.

Nor does it mean that all their customers are happy about that.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: lwatts666 on January 21, 2017, 11:38:20 am
...The fundamental problem is that in a saturated market a licensing model is the only way for a company to continue to make make money...

It actually saves the vendor a significant amount of money on product support. Supporting the last few major versions, each with several minor versions can be a real pain. Patching a security/feature hole, testing, QA and release documentation for multiple versions is an expensive nightmare. The subscription model removes any perceived cost in upgrading to the latest version, so the vendor only needs to support the latest version and tell the customer it will be fixed in the next release.

I'm not for one minute supporting the subscription model here. I have worked on both sides of the fence, both as a developer and a customer of large industrial software products. The subscription model, as many have pointed out here, ignores the very real costs to the customers of frequent upgrades, lost production dealing with changes in UI, new bugs/features, etc. Not to mention needing to support your own customers older projects.

In a similar situation, in a company I once worked for, the actions were explained to the development and engineering teams by the software product manager: "Don't worry, We will still have plenty of customers, they just won't be the same ones we have now." Perhaps that manager now works for Autodesk...

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: plazma on January 21, 2017, 11:57:07 am


Comparisons have been made to Fusion360, but from what I've seen this is a class-leading tool which offers way more for the money than anything else on the market - as & when I have a need for serious 3D design I wouldn't hesitate to subscribe.

Fusion360 like licencing would be great. Free for students/hobbyist/sub 100k start-up. However that would mean almost no income since those groups probably make 99.9% of the users.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 21, 2017, 12:04:48 pm
Question for people who have used a reasonable number of PCB packages - given a choice based purely on UI and features, not price, how many would choose Eagle?

A few, I'd think. Eagle's UI is easy to use, despite some :palm: quirks. And if you're happy with basic features Eagle is a good compromise for hobbyists, makers and small(er) companies. The scripting mitigates some downsides, still Eagle is not suited for professional use.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: dmills on January 21, 2017, 01:26:05 pm
One thing to note when comparing say the Altium and the Eagle subscription model is that an AD subscription is not usually quite the same thing as an Eagle one....

We bought an AD license and subscribe to get the updates, which works for us, but if we let the subscription lapse AD does not stop working, we simply stop getting updates, this is fundamentally different to the Eagle model, and I suspect a lot of that subscription revenue for Altium is update subscriptions on perpetual licenses.

Now Altium pricing has been messed about with in all sorts of ways over the years, but lump sum for the package plus subscribe to get updates and support is a very, very standard model for high end tools, and has none of the downsides that the Eagle model has.

73 Dan.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 21, 2017, 01:28:05 pm
North Americans are more accustomed to the rental model, 43% of Americans rent their home where as here in Britain it is closer to 30%. More than 30% of US drivers lease their cars where as here private leasing is almost unheard of, only companies lease cars. That is not to say one option is better than the other ownership vs Leasing has different advantages for different circumstances.

At least here in the UK there is a strong preference for ownership, we like to feel in control of the things we have, not be somebody else's tenant. Owning a license that enables someone to use the software for as long as they need it is preferable for many. There is no reason that AutoDesk couldn't have continued with a perpetual license along side the subscription model for those who wanted it. Suddenly pulling the rug from out from under everyone and forcing everyone to choose between a subscription or nothing is what has got people upset. It makes people feel at best that AutoDesk doesn't understand their needs properly as a customer or worse the company is only interested in what is best for their profitability and to hell with customers who don't like it.

A significant majority of people on here are I imagine either enthusiasts or work in some small scale electronics engineering capacity. It is this kind of person who would have started out with the free version of Eagle and migrated to one of the paid editions as their needs increased. For a hobbyist the idea of renting really doesn't work. Paying every month for something you might only use randomly for a few hours here and there is silly, subscribing and unsubscribing each time you want to use software is also irritating at best.

Perhaps AutoDesk will turn Eagle into something much greater than it is today and eventually become a competitor to Altium but throwing away revenue from a large segment of your existing customers before you get to that point is not exactly the best thing to do. If AutoDesk thinks it can take on the likes of Altium with Eagle at this stage they are in for a rude awakening.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: BMF on January 21, 2017, 02:43:29 pm
2017 is the year I get serious about using KiCad and FreeCAD as my baseline software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: justyn on January 21, 2017, 02:53:43 pm
One thing to note when comparing say the Altium and the Eagle subscription model is that an AD subscription is not usually quite the same thing as an Eagle one....

We bought an AD license and subscribe to get the updates, which works for us, but if we let the subscription lapse AD does not stop working, we simply stop getting updates, this is fundamentally different to the Eagle model, and I suspect a lot of that subscription revenue for Altium is update subscriptions on perpetual licenses.

Now Altium pricing has been messed about with in all sorts of ways over the years, but lump sum for the package plus subscribe to get updates and support is a very, very standard model for high end tools, and has none of the downsides that the Eagle model has.

I'd like to understand more about Altium's subscription model... is this the only way to pay for Altium? Pay a high lump sum up front and then smaller fees every year in return for updates.

You say you can continue to use Altium Designer after ending your subscription... can you still install it on new computers?

Does it need to be online to activate?

Thanks
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 21, 2017, 03:06:51 pm
I'd like to understand more about Altium's subscription model... is this the only way to pay for Altium? Pay a high lump sum up front and then smaller fees every year in return for updates.

You say you can continue to use Altium Designer after ending your subscription... can you still install it on new computers?

Does it need to be online to activate?

Thanks

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Altium+designer+license (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Altium+designer+license)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: justyn on January 21, 2017, 03:37:52 pm
Okay fair enough, but I was hoping for the non-marketing, EEVblog-filtered version! I'm trying to fully compare it to Eagle's setup. Never mind :)

Edit: you're right though, there is clearly enough info already out there, apologies.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: BMF on January 21, 2017, 03:45:47 pm


I'd like to understand more about Altium's subscription model... is this the only way to pay for Altium? Pay a high lump sum up front and then smaller fees every year in return for updates.

You say you can continue to use Altium Designer after ending your subscription... can you still install it on new computers?

Does it need to be online to activate?

Thanks
[/quote]

Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.
 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: justyn on January 21, 2017, 04:05:06 pm
Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.

The option of choosing either a floating online license or offline (after installation) node-locked license was exactly what Eagle tried to introduce with v7, but rolled back after a number of weeks.

It sounded terrible back then, but suddenly it sounds like an improvement on their new approach!

$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Thanks for the insight.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you can reinstall the standalone version by using the same license file, but I wondered how you would move it to a different machine (since their .alf file or whatever is locked to your specific computer)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: JonnyH on January 21, 2017, 06:40:35 pm
Autodesk is clearly pushing Eagle into the traditional walled-garden situation. Next step (I'm speculating) will be to turn ULPs into an app-store type of thing, with support for signed/blessed ULPs only, etc. etc.

They could have rolled out a subscription scenario that actually didn't piss everyone off:
It's pretty clear to me, given as how Eagle is now using the same licensing terms of all Autodesk products, that it's going to follow the same trajectory as all Autodesk products. Which makes me believe that the true decision makers are in the corporate suite at Autodesk, and that the project manager for Eagle is just doing what he's been told to do.

Bye, and thanks for all of the fish.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 21, 2017, 07:48:19 pm
I am seeing lots of good arguments! I love this forum!
Thank you Dave for including my posts in the video

I would like to make a couple of things clear from my viewpoint:
1) Like Tandy said, ownership is maybe a culturally preferred thing. I for sure want a perpetual license. But I could be persuaded for subscription if there are many benefits and the price is right. but the price is not right if you have many users

2) Can people not accept that the product has its own market position and use cases? we do not need big upgrades and more features. We are working with it now and are happy

3) For some people, ET phone home is NOT acceptable

4) I have been doing professional development with EAGLE. we do not use many BGAs and nothing else fancy, but 6 layer PCBs are quite common for us. We do not use an autorouter (saves on the perpetual license)
One important point regarding the definition of professional use. NONE of our users have PCB designer in their job titles. All engineers working with electronic designs are supposed to understand board lay-out. We have some experts obviously, but none of our users are not full time lay-outers. This may be less efficient time-wise, but it ensures everything is done according to the intent of the designer. And everything is peer-reviewed any way.

5) If all companies are going to subscription models, that does not mean you should accept it. Just do not buy from those vendors.

So for all of those fanboys that are talking about the tool getting better using subscriptions et cetera: we do not need the tool to be better, but we want it to be priced in the same market segment. Obviously, there are improvements we would like. I have nothing against the model or the way that Autodesk wants to develop it. Some features seem really useful. I will just not buy it. Fine there is no doubt the product will be improved. But we do not want to increase out cost tenfold just to get a better tool. The old one worked for us.

I can not stretch enough that the whole feature vs development vs subscription argument is interesting, and a good discussion to have. but what is at the heart of the issue is that EAGLE is changing their market position and license model, and existing users are pissed off because they want to keep the tool they know and love and can afford. How do I explain a 10x price increase to my management? I could explain a 2x difference maybe, if there are enough features we need that are in an upgrade.

Personally, perpetual is the only way for me, but that does not necessarily reflect my companies view.
If I want something more capable and modern, I will damn well get something else! Maybe in a few years time, EAGLE will be up there with the big players, but they have quite some work to do in that case. They have then left their market segment, and can expect all existing users to have switched to something else. That is fine too if Autodesk wants that. But they leave the existing customer base behind. I am sad that I have to switch, but we can not demand that Autodesk keeps EAGLE the way it is. We can not demand they keep their promises, we can only call them out as liars ("we are not going to subscription") and give them no business.

And finally: there is indeed the issue of migration. But when a company pisses you off just enough, you will do anything to get away. We have 30 licenses of version 7 like I mentioned, and there is no way that Autodesk gets any money. Even if they make the subscruiptions a lot cheaper, they have pissed us off and ruined their opportunities. The only thing that would help is undo everything and offer perpetual licenses again. With the old CadSoft EULA mind you.

At least CadSoft listened to the users when they backtracked on the FlexLM model. But I do not trust and will not trust Autodesk anymore. They have been such incompetent idiots in handling this change, I have been in touch with support a couple of times already. They have proven to not be worhty my custom.

Edits: fixed typo's, added clarification on professional use
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 21, 2017, 10:08:23 pm
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: hli on January 21, 2017, 10:21:07 pm
One suggestion to Autodesk: why not make the currently rented license perpetual after the user has paid for one or two years?
In my area of work (during the day I'm a Java developer) there was a quite similar discussion when one tool vendor (IntelliJ) changed their license model to be subscription based.  E.g. see here (http://bytecrafter.blogspot.de/2015/09/how-jetbrains-lost-years-of-customer.html) and here (https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2015/09/04/we-are-listening/). In the subsequent discussion one change (https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2015/09/18/final-update-on-the-jetbrains-toolbox-announcement/) was that when you have paid for one year, you get a perpetual fallback license for all version you paid for (meaning which came out during this year) - see the FAQ (https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/206544479-Subscription-based-licensing-model-vs-perpetual-licensing-model).
This can be a nice compromise - user are encouraged to continue paying to get access to new features, but when they feel they don't need them the4y can keep their license. This is especially important if you need to backup the software together with the work data (which is an important requirement).
Oh, and IntelliJ made sure you can use the license without internet connection as long as its valid (so for a monthly license it still needs internet once a month to update it...).
(Disclosure: I'm an IntelliJ user, and my company has a company-wide license for a range of their products).
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 21, 2017, 10:37:43 pm
Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I do, and you should too. After all, you are agreeing to it.
If you do not agree, just decline.

Spoiler alert: It could make your life more difficult, but not impossible ;)
FUN alert: the look on the faces of sales people when you disagree.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: IanJ on January 21, 2017, 10:42:23 pm
$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Just a note......Altium CircuitStudio operates in much the same way, buy the standalone license for £765.00+VAT and you get the 1st year sub valued at £115+VAT thrown in.
Let the sub lapse and you lose updates and access to Altium's online vault.

The only bit I am not sure about......is it just as simple as letting the sub lapse say for a couple years, then buy it again for £115 and get all the nice updates......then let it lapse again......Hmmm!

Ian.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2017, 10:49:20 pm
Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I do, and you should too. After all, you are agreeing to it.
If you do not agree, just decline.

Spoiler alert: It could make your life more difficult, but not impossible ;)
FUN alert: the look on the faces of sales people when you disagree.
..and of course with a  sub model, they could change the EULA at any time
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: langwadt on January 21, 2017, 11:26:13 pm
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't

Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

https://youtu.be/qslcnw-9KbI
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 21, 2017, 11:46:20 pm
People keep comparing EAGLE to Fusion360.  This is wrong and irrelevant.  In Fusion360, you can export your design (http://www.cadalyst.com/cad/product-design/export-and-import-autodesk-fusion-360-designs-28325) to .step, .iges, .dxf, and any number of other standard formats supported by countless other tools.  It's OK for Fusion360 to be cloud-based, subscription-based, or whatever, because its author can't grab you by the proverbial pussy. 

For electronics CAD, there is no standard format that can represent your combined PCB and schematic design with all of its underlying metadata and library content.   Your tools and your data are inseparable.  If your tool vendor can revoke your ability to run their PCB CAD program, then they are the ones who actually own your work product.  Not you.  Not your customer.  The lame-ass tool peddler.

No one who cares about their work product can afford to allow their tool vendor to behave this way.  It really is that simple.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: lachlanA on January 22, 2017, 12:45:00 am
Try https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad for converting from eagle to Kicad

Works for most things,    but as always triple check the results and read the thinks it has Problems with.

Lachlan, (Author of eagle-to-kicad ulp)

I just got the email from Autodesk. The changes to Eagle actually sounded great and much needed.  :-+
Then I saw the subscription thing  :--  :--  :--  :--

I would have considered paying an upgrade fee for a perpetual license if there was a discount for existing licenses. But they can shove subscriptions, always online and requiring an account where the sun doesn't shine.

Oh well. Time to give KiCad another go.

The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.

There are ULP scripts around somewhere to convert Eagle parts to KiCad, so converting libraries should not be too difficult as long as you double check everything before you use it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: aandrew on January 22, 2017, 01:42:51 am
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation.

Hi Jorge, thank you for your tireless efforts to support Eagle. I've been a user since the 3.x days.

I understand your frustration about people jumping in with the "subscription is evil" instead of being excited for the new features in Eagle. As a user I have to ask you this: what is the point about getting excited about these (truly great) features when I simply will not be using the software? You could make the software print gold bars, but with the current subscription model proposed it won't matter; we simply cannot use it.

That is why people are ignoring the new features. Autodesk has added a drop of sewage to a barrel of wine. It doesn't matter how amazing the wine is or will be; we now have sewage.

I refuse -- absolutely refuse -- to tie my business to software that may disappear tomorrow. Eagle was amazing for this, and now it is not. It is absolutely inconceivable that anyone would accept that their project files are useless at some point in the future when Autodesk shutters its license servers.

I have a rule: I do not use software for my core business that I cannot install on a VM and function on its own. Any embedded design has a VM with compilers/IDEs/debuggers/whatever on it and I can power on that virtual machine at any point in the future and work on the design. Cloud software is an automatic no-go.

I can't do it. I won't do it. I've been bitten by "the cloud" for fairly minor things in the past and I refuse to play that game. I'm very, truly sorry that Autodesk has decided to go this route.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 22, 2017, 02:03:47 am
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: aandrew on January 22, 2017, 02:11:19 am
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

That is only true if there are no costs involved in switching. You know as well as anyone here that there are enormous costs involved in switching EDA packages. Libraries, experience/familiarity/competence in using the software, etc., etc....

Autodesk is trying to grab its users by the balls. I've already converted some designs to Altium, and others to Kicad. Altium at least has perpetual licensing options, and Kicad is free. CadSoft didn't get sold twice because of their perpetual license model, they got sold because they were completely inattentive to their users. They provided pathetic half-measures in new features and bug fixes, yet wanted users to pay, all while their competition was completely obliterating them on features and ease of use.

What Eagle had going for them was niche; they had a fair license model and price points, were multiplatform (something no other software had for most of Eagle's existence), and successfully found the sweet spots (half eurocard size, 2 and 4 layer only versions...) which allowed many, many people to use their software at fair prices. I was a pro-license user for 25 years (sch+pcb only, nobody uses autorouting). I left when they gave me new icons and a half-assed hierarchical design in v7 and wanted another $600 from me.

Programmers need to eat, but this isn't an "us vs them" game. We all need to eat, and subscription based models are too heavy-handed and one sided to be palatable to me.  They remove all control over my own company and data and place it in the hands of the software vendor who owns the software. Autodesk could have had a lot of very happy customers if they offered reasonable subscription price points ($65/mo if I need 4 layers? eff that) and a perpetual license, offline option. Oh well.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: aandrew on January 22, 2017, 02:13:41 am
The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?

Spoken as someone who has never actually used said importer.

Yes, Altium can pull in Eagle schematics and layouts and libraries... poorly. I'm thankful for the XML format, but it's not a panacea that magically makes it trivial to jump to a new EDA package.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 22, 2017, 02:45:21 am
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

As always it is something that software companies fail to realise, their protection measures only cause inconvenience for their legitimate users. People who are going to rip it off will find a way and as a bonus not have to suffer the annoyances. Half the time the people who crack the protection are not even interested in using the software, it is just the challenge of breaking it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 22, 2017, 03:51:28 am
The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?

Spoken as someone who has never actually used said importer.


The hell I haven't.  I have done so and got a perfectly editable PCB in Circuit Studio.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: JoeN on January 22, 2017, 04:45:01 am
DipTrace rules.  Eagle drools.  And Autodesk absolutely sucks ass.   :-DD
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: free_electron on January 22, 2017, 05:15:22 am
Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.

A perpetual licence is NOT node locked. Install software, enter username and password and click activate.
The AIF file does not hold the licence. It is user 'user signature' when activating you connect to an altium server that then sends a token to unlock you features.

I can install on as many computers as i want ( legally altium allows 1 desktop + 1 laptop ) , but : i can ONLY use on one machine at a time. The software continuously scans the network for other users of the same licence and will come with a popup that the licence is in use.

If you download the aif file locally ( after activation) you can take the machine off-network.

The option of choosing either a floating online license or offline (after installation) node-locked license was exactly what Eagle tried to introduce with v7, but rolled back after a number of weeks.

It sounded terrible back then, but suddenly it sounds like an improvement on their new approach!

$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Thanks for the insight.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you can reinstall the standalone version by using the same license file, but I wondered how you would move it to a different machine (since their .alf file or whatever is locked to your specific computer)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Corporate666 on January 22, 2017, 08:19:42 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 22, 2017, 09:44:35 am
Well, I didn't actually say I am not one who never reads an EULA. However, that aside, I think it is a Utopian view to suggest people have real power to decline an EULA. I couldn't so no to Windows, even though I am typing this on a Linux machine. Utopia famously was a place that doesn't actually exist.

If you become locked in to a software product for any reason including the sheer cost of retooling around a new one and the company makes a sudden change to the EULA you are screwed. Ideally you should go on under the terms you agreed to and the new users start on the new agreement. That would at least be some incentive for vendors to think carefully about EULA terms and not be so capricious about changing them and skewing the terms to suit themselves so much.

I agree with most of that. But the idealist in me is saying that the only power you have to change this is decline. It does not help if you begrudgingly accept. Things will only change is users dump the vendor. See what happened on the FlexLM intdoduction on v7: no-one updated, and I told CadSoft support I would not if they included FlexLM
If enough users do not buy your product and tell the vendor about that as well, with a reason, they have evidence to present at board meetings that their users are not going to take it.
If you just rant on this forum and do not get in touch with Autodesk, that does not exactly prove anything to them.
I am not accusing you of ranting by the way, that was a generic statement.

We have had bigger vendors come over with products, demo-ing and spending lots of time on their end to get their software sold. and in the end, when we were ready to sign, I have declined EULAs. Sales people are not happy with that, and will have to report back at the company they almost made a sale, but the EULA was declined. That will make them look at it if you are a big customer compared to them or if there are many customers doing the same. This is how boycots work.
You would need good arguments for that, but transferring data to the US from the EU is a hard no-go on our end.

Again: I did not even read the EULA, because there are other red flags that came up earlier.

And regarding microsoft: you can do it if you are big enough:
https://www.cnet.com/news/belgian-government-chooses-opendocument/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/belgian-government-chooses-opendocument/)
This is an example of pressures for change, not a comparison to this licensing case. They are VERY different

Edit: fixed typo
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 22, 2017, 09:58:56 am
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

And even if CadSoft could not afford their programmers, there is always the option to increase the pricing slightly for bigger, professional users. Or even decrease the single user professional price to lock in more customers. I don't know what market studies CadSoft did in the past, so they may have been at their optimum already but there was just no market.
I feel that my 30 user license is maybe too cheap, but the single license is too expensive for most people.
So they could have changed their discount structure.

However, switching license model without much going for it just kills of any incentive.

The problem lies in the fact that Autodesk has one universal software model for the whole company. There is five things that can happen in my opinion
1) Autodesk gives up and tries to sell EAGLE again. I do not think there will be any buyers, unless Autodesk takes their loss and sells below their original aquisition price
2) Autodesk caves in and brings back the old licensing.
3) Autodesk does not care and continues the path they have taken
4) Autodesk carefully listens to the market and decides on a different licensing scheme, dual licenses, perpetual standalone, lease, or whatever.
5) The product is just completely killed off

I am hoping they somehow spin CadSoft out of Autodesk again...but I think that is highly unlikely
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 22, 2017, 01:11:16 pm
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Sadly, some will go that route. I'll keep V7 in a VM and move to KiCad, since I've already done one project with KiCad in wise foresight. This could be also a good opportunety for businesses to sponsor KiCad to improve the UI and to add new features. Might prove a better return on investment on the long term than paying more and more for subscriptions.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EBRAddict on January 22, 2017, 01:19:20 pm
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 22, 2017, 01:37:25 pm
Did they migrate the V8 to Qt? I noticed they included all the dll's and didn't do a static link, which would indicate they are using the GPL version of Qt.
Meaning the source of eagle can be requested?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 22, 2017, 02:54:07 pm
Did they migrate the V8 to Qt? I noticed they included all the dll's and didn't do a static link, which would indicate they are using the GPL version of Qt.
Meaning the source of eagle can be requested?

What exactly makes you think Cadsoft hasn't bought a commercial Qt license?

As far as I know, they do have a commercial Qt license.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: SeanB on January 22, 2017, 03:57:07 pm
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 22, 2017, 05:16:04 pm
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

Microsoft is shedding staff. About half due to bad phone decisions, but revenue is certainly a consideration for the rest. It always is.

The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EBRAddict on January 22, 2017, 05:16:25 pm
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.

He said patched, not hacked/cracked, so I assumed he was talking about legit patches.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 22, 2017, 10:27:17 pm
Don't forget the time and thus money it will take to go to another softwarepackage.
I personally think that people will stick with their old perpetual version till they really can not anymore, such as that the OS does not run it properly anymore.
One thing all Eagle users are already used to is that it does not have state of the art tech, there were not many valuable updates or significant improvements, so the current version can stil last a decade. Time enough to slowly transfer somewhere else, leaving Autodesk with no customers and no income.
Another good point. PCB software has little need to be updated to be useable - PCBs today are no different to PCBs 10 years ago except possibly in scale. I still use a 10 year old package and there isn't much I find lacking, certainly not enough to invest time in learning a whole new package.
3D integration is about the only major thing that has happened in the PCB market in recent years, and many users can happily live without it.

It's hard to see what Autodesk could do in the way of new features on top of the baggage they've inherited to make it attractive enough to new users for them to invest in it.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. 

As a *regular* user (and I'm talking nearly daily here even though I don't do PCB layout for a living per-se), there is a *huge* amount of usability improvements that Eagle can most definitely use which would improve the experience in it for both new *and* existing users. 

So ... ongoing development of PCB software is something that *is* needed.  Take the most obvious example ... Auto-routers - there is not a single vendor on the planet that has got that one even close to right (some are considerably better than others, but when you get down to it ... pretty much all of them are "meh"). 

... and this is for *all* packages, not just Eagle (I'm talking Altium, KiCAD and so on).  So, an ongoing business model where a company *can* afford to continue to develop a product *is* needed.  The subscription model sort of does that, but the issue at hand is that Autodesk in this case of forcing subscription to be not just for "updates", but for continued use. 

dbVisualiser (a DB access/management package) has a update subscription model where you get updates while you have a valid subscription, but it doesn't stop allowing you to use the product if you let your subscription lapse, and it certainly doesn't require that you have a permanent internet connection to keep it "activated" - and that's the part where I think Autodesk have seriously screwed up. 


/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 22, 2017, 10:38:54 pm
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't

Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I think you would be surprised. 

Anyone who has had *anything* to do with lawyers usually gets real nervous around these things.  My suspicion in regard to the EULA restrictions, is that the basic "requirements" are such show stoppers that you don't need to go to the EULA (at least it did for me - always connected ... *fail* ... do not pass go, do not collect *any* $$$). 

/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 22, 2017, 11:43:28 pm
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

Do you have a link to this?

Are you willing to take the risks of running some cracked software, complete with some lovely bundled malware added to it as an extra income stream? LSGTFY and do some darknet queries. Dave is not going to allow this kind of link on the forum, it is outright piracy, and he really does not like DMCA take downs being served on him.

He said patched, not hacked/cracked, so I assumed he was talking about legit patches.
Not that I would post anything of such here, there is one "legit" patch available that will remove the registration requirement, permanently from the software, but it still runs as freeware, so you have the limitations still, which keeps the software legit.

The other, isn't legit, I do have access to such but I was pointing out that for all of the hassle this new licensing crap has injected into people it took someone all of a few hours (if that) to remove it.

And to be "clear" the patches are not made by Autodesk, so they are not official.

I don't advise people to go and get a dodgy version, and I have access to a licensed V7.7 for work, I do suspect that they would however be forcing more people (wanting V8) to move to piracy. For me, there isn't enough value to move to 8 at the moment.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 22, 2017, 11:54:53 pm
The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.

"It is what good people want for their employees"

That is one seriously generous interpretation to put on these changes.

Me. I'm not nearly so charitable. I won't go so far as condemning them as greedy scumbags. Yet.

Ever picked people to lay off during one of tech's all too regular bust cycles?  I have. It's miserable and leaves most decent people guilt-ridden afterwards. We hope to never do it again. Leveling out the revenue cycle has major benefits to employee job stability, and the employer and/or shareholder, as you correctly point out.

There are problems with software as a service.  I don't think many of the problems are as dire as what is presented here.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 22, 2017, 11:55:18 pm
I don't think we can depend on info about this from any blogs or forums anymore. The story coming out via online discussion with Eagle reps is not consistent, it changes depending on how convenient the story is. Don't believe any promises that aren't backed up by changes in the license or other official announcements from Autodesk.

Autodesk rep unsure if subscription Eagle 8 is a major version upgrade or not:

Response to a recent purchaser asking whether they will get maintenance updates for Eagle 7.7:
Quote
We have always provided support for major releases. We provided support for version 6 until version 7 came out. We provide support for version 7 until version 8 comes out. This doesn’t prevent you from using the user forums (all of which we host) and receiving replies either from the support teams or fellow users as necessary.


Response to concern about a license clause about Eagle upgrades invalidating earlier licenses:
Quote
This is completely inaccurate but I appreciate you bringing it up, so we can tease out just what this means. When you purchased a previous license, you did so under a Cadsoft license agreement. We have no authority or interest in doing anything to that license as it was a different legal framework by which you made that agreement. Under subscription, there is no “major” release and thus that clause would never apply ...i.e. version 8.0 of EAGLE is only a version number for convenience...as we move forward, this is just EAGLE and there is no major “Upgrade” like there was in the past, thus nothing to force anyone to stop using an older license.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on January 23, 2017, 02:00:33 am
The other part of my assertion is that the boom/bust financial cycle of the old-school update system is just miserable for those on the development side. Wanting a stable source of revenue is not evil. It is what good people want for their employees.

"It is what good people want for their employees"

That is one seriously generous interpretation to put on these changes.

Me. I'm not nearly so charitable. I won't go so far as condemning them as greedy scumbags. Yet.

Ever picked people to lay off during one of tech's all too regular bust cycles?  I have. It's miserable and leaves most decent people guilt-ridden afterwards. We hope to never do it again. Leveling out the revenue cycle has major benefits to employee job stability, and the employer and/or shareholder, as you correctly point out.

There are problems with software as a service.  I don't think many of the problems are as dire as what is presented here.

I have been there too.  It sucks.  But if you aren't providing value consistent with costs you will be laying people off sooner or later.  Maybe all of them, forever.  Look at the magazine and newspaper industries as examples of subscription services that outlasted their value.

Looking at how Autodesk has worked in other fields I would look for two things.  First, very limited low cost student versions, requiring student ID.  The sole reason for these would be to get students "hooked" on the software, thereby supporting future commercial sales.  They won't have any interest in the hobby market since the transition to future full boat licenses is not clear.  Second, I would expect it to become much more tightly integrated with the rest of their product line, perhaps even being a module to be added to the base CAD software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 23, 2017, 06:22:54 am
I'm going to disagree with you on this one. 

As a *regular* user (and I'm talking nearly daily here even though I don't do PCB layout for a living per-se), there is a *huge* amount of usability improvements that Eagle can most definitely use which would improve the experience in it for both new *and* existing users. 

So ... ongoing development of PCB software is something that *is* needed.  Take the most obvious example ... Auto-routers - there is not a single vendor on the planet that has got that one even close to right (some are considerably better than others, but when you get down to it ... pretty much all of them are "meh"). 

... and this is for *all* packages, not just Eagle (I'm talking Altium, KiCAD and so on).
I don't get your point. You have NOT gotten any of those improvements from Eagle for the last 6 years or so, still you stayed, proof that you do not need those improvements which was our point.

Second you want autorouter improvements but make the point yourself no-one has it or can deliver. We probably have to wait for AI to improve and be integrated in cad packages for that to happen.

So what you will end up is, a steep monthly licensing bill with some but without the real improvements you want, or seek, well good luck to you. You might consider switching to Altium and you will have all the improvements starting tomorrow, with the same monthly bill ofcourse.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 23, 2017, 10:56:37 am
I don't think we can depend on info about this from any blogs or forums anymore. The story coming out via online discussion with Eagle reps is not consistent, it changes depending on how convenient the story is. Don't believe any promises that aren't backed up by changes in the license or other official announcements from Autodesk.

Like moving from "no subscriptions" half a year ago to "subscriptions only" today.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MagicSmoker on January 23, 2017, 02:54:16 pm

The flaw with this reasoning is that Eagle is not currently a class-leading tool. Its niche has been the maker/small business space, and its customers have neither the need nor the financial means to afford a best-in-class tool.

I think this is the key problem. I've not used Eagle but my understanding is its main attractive feature is being free, and people only buy the non-free version because it's what they know.
So where 's the ongoing future market ?
Anyone starting out from scratch (or deciding how to transition form Free Eagle) is probably going to take a very hard look at Kicad and alternatives like Designspark, Diptrace etc. I've not used Kicad but seeing what people have done with it, it must be pretty useable and it can only get better.
Many existing paying Eagle users will probably subscribe.
Unless they do some very major improvements to make it much more attractive to new users than Kicad, I think they have a rather stagnant and diminishing user base.

Question for people who have used a reasonable number of PCB packages - given a choice based purely on UI and features, not price, how many would choose Eagle?
...

I've been meaning to reply to this for a couple of days because I meet the criteria you've outlined: I've used several PCB/EDA packages over the years but the small company I joined in late '08 couldn't afford what I was using as an independent design engineer (Labcenter Electronics' Proteus) and EAGLE "Professional" was the best of a crappy lot.

At this point I am fairly proficient at EAGLE, but I can't say I like it, and despite many improvements from v5.x to v7.x it is still riddled with annoying problems and quirks that make using it needlessly inefficient. If CAD/EDA is a religion then I guess I am an apostate, because I would totally jump ship given sufficient nudging.

In fact, I seriously balked at the $500 they wanted to upgrade from v6.x to v7.x, and only did so because v7.x finally added trace length matching and meanders to board layout (and I have to admit the library management was improved immensely).

This new subscription model, though, is asking for $500 every year - rather than every couple of years, as it was effectively costing me before - and stops working 14 days after failing to pay the subscription. Whether the pricing is fair or not I leave up to the individual to decide - I personally don't feel EAGLE is anywhere close to polished/productive/functional enough to warrant $500 per year - but for it to stop working if I don't pay the protection racket (ie - Autodesk) is unacceptable. That somewhere buried in the EULA is a clause that Autodesk can transfer my IP to other jurisdictions without my express consent would also be unacceptable, except I'm not going to "upgrade" to v8, so it is irrelevant.

So now I am watching the "Getting to blinky 4.0" series of videos on YouTube and taking a serious look at Kicad; so far it appears to be much improved from the last time I considered it (ie - when EAGLE came soliciting for the upgrade to v7.x).


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KoningTosti on January 23, 2017, 03:40:04 pm
I tried it today, and after opening a v7.7 project I tried out the new router. It crashed immediately after I placed the wire.  :palm: Second try it did worked, but I'm not too impressed. Something else I was looking forward to was the 3D implementation. This is a online only thing, too bad eagle. It's their loss.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 05:39:49 pm
Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to inform everyone of some good news. The standard will be receiving 4 layers starting with the next update. Read more about it here:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182 (http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182)

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 05:54:15 pm
Hello Everyone,

I just got some clarification about this:

From the AutoDESK Licensing URL provided by Jorge...

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

From 1.2.1 ... quoted below:

1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.



This doesn't apply to V7.7 or prior of EAGLE. Technically, Autodesk EAGLE is not an upgrade it is a brand new product. Therefore the above clause does not apply. The intent of this clause originally is in the case where previously Autodesk provided perpetual licenses, so if someone went for feature limited AutoCAD version and then bought a full version of AutoCAD then this clause would come into play and they had to uninstall the feature limited version.

As far as the future is concerned, the clause also doesn't apply because under the subscription model there are no upgrades. As long as you pay your subscription you always have the latest and greatest software.

So to summarize, Autodesk EAGLE is considered a new product does not influence previous Cadsoft EAGLE releases, therefore the above clause doesn't apply. Going forward new updates to Autodesk EAGLE aren't considered upgrades so the clause still doesn't apply. Keep in mind that Autodesk still has some perpetual customers from prior to the transition and this agreement is used with ALL of Autodesk software. For each application not all of it may apply.

As always legalese is legalese so I'm not surprised by the concern.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia,
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 23, 2017, 05:58:24 pm
Jorge, since Eagle 8 is now considered a brand new product, does this mean that Eagle 7 will continue to receive customer support and bugfix releases as promised?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 23, 2017, 05:59:06 pm
Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to inform everyone of some good news. The standard will be receiving 4 layers starting with the next update. Read more about it here:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182 (http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/a-path-forward-for-the-make-license-a-step-up-for-standard/td-p/6823182)

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

Jorge,

That is huge.  Thanks for the update.   :-+
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 23, 2017, 05:59:55 pm
Some small steps in the right direction. Still, the subscription is the showstopper.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 06:18:50 pm
Jorge, since Eagle 8 is now considered a brand new product, does this mean that Eagle 7 will continue to receive customer support and bugfix releases as promised?

Hi Garrett,

Nice to hear from you again, I just wanted to apologize for my "that was cold" comment on the hack-chat last week. I was out of line on that one, it had been a rough couple of days and it had gotten to me. I'm sorry.

As to your question yes, we will continue to support. If you call the phone line I will still answer and so will Ed.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: calexanian on January 23, 2017, 06:35:17 pm
After considering some of the clarifications and that the new version does not "Nuke" your old version I have come to terms with this move, however. As a company we have decided to simply stay with our older version. It suits our needs and we anticipate it will continue to do so for several years for our in house designs. We are giving our out house developers the option of us reimbursing them for a single year licence, then in subsequent years if we need work done we will re up for a month to do whatever we need done, or they can change to KiCad or Autotrax or stay with the version 6 variant Eagle we all already have. Most of them are going for the KiCad option or just stay with their version 6 variant Eagle. Nobody has shown any interest in upgrading in our camp, so its really a non issue. We really did not want anything Net tethered anyways. Its not hard and fast rule for us, but since it will not be an issue with the packages our people use I will not worry about it. As for other companies who do have Itar requirements or other closed network requirements and do not have the capital for more expensive packages you can always go back to Autotrax or Dip Trace.

As for hobby use or micro companies I will now recommend KiCad. Its just they way the world is moving. As far as Autodesk, I say good luck. I hope you find a market and do well, but I do not foresee our company buying in anytime soon. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 23, 2017, 06:37:16 pm
Jorge, don't worry about that on the Hack Chat. I was not offended in any way. And pointing out that KiCAD will have an influx of new users is certainly cold, but we're both in this business to get things done. I'm going to look at things as objectively as possible, and make practical decisions based on what works for my business. Yes, I feel nostalgia for all years I've used Eagle. But I'm going to be cold about business decisions, I have to make the right choices and the new subscription model isn't acceptable. Circuit Studio, for example, appears to do it right; they have an internet-tied activation and a subscription model. But the license is perpetual and based on a keyfile that is transferred to your local computer, and the subscription provides access to updated Altium libraries and maintenance upgrades. If your subscription lapses you can still use the software.

That brings me back to the second part of my question which you did not answer: will Eagle 7 continue to receive maintenance upgrades. If not, will Autodesk be releasing a statement that Eagle 7 is now end-of-life, and provide refunds to anyone who just purchased it? According to your statement, Eagle 8 is a new product and therefore doesn't count as a major release within the scope of the Eagle 7 product, so you will need to provide a reason for no longer maintaining Eagle 7.

I'd really like a bugfix to the Mac OS crash on pan/zoom....

Edit: I'd like to clarify that I purchased Eagle 7 long ago and don't expect any sort of refund. I'm asking on behalf of people who just recently purchased Eagle 7 with the promise of support and upgrades until the next major release, which you say has not happened for Eagle 7 yet.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 23, 2017, 06:55:46 pm
User Report:

I have downloaded v8 of Eagle, Mac on a system that has at least two previous versions of Eagle.  Download and install was seamless.  v8 found all of my designs and libraries.  I was able to immediately open and edit existing design with no crashes.  v8 is actually quite snappy, so whatever Autodesk is doing isn't bogging down the software ... yet. In fact, v8 seems to launch faster than 7.6.  I even tried to do a bunch of silly edits to my design to force v8 to throw and error.  Nothing.  It worked fine. Pan and zoom still need some work on the Mac, but that is the same as for v7.6.

My existing version of v7.6 Eagle will come up and run perfectly - side by side with v8, no errors, warnings, or issues.  I can discern no obvious attempts by Autodesk to inhibit, in any way, use of the license that I have already own. 

FWIW...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 07:41:49 pm
That brings me back to the second part of my question which you did not answer: will Eagle 7 continue to receive maintenance upgrades. If not, will Autodesk be releasing a statement that Eagle 7 is now end-of-life, and provide refunds to anyone who just purchased it? According to your statement, Eagle 8 is a new product and therefore doesn't count as a major release within the scope of the Eagle 7 product, so you will need to provide a reason for no longer maintaining Eagle 7.

I'd really like a bugfix to the Mac OS crash on pan/zoom....

Hi Garrett,

Ah ok... Sorry I misunderstood I thought you were talking about help support. In regards to your question, Autodesk has followed the same pattern Cadsoft did with previous releases. Once a new release is out, work on the previous one stops. Autodesk efforts are all focused on Autodesk EAGLE moving forward.

This is what Cadsoft has always done, and it looks like Autodesk want to continue that way. The crash on Mac OS can be side stepped by resizing the window before you start working. Autodesk EAGLE so far seems to have corrected the issue but I'll wait to hear more user feedback before I call it cured.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 23, 2017, 07:46:14 pm
Jorge,

But you're saying that for licensing purposes, Eagle 8 is "brand new product" and is not an upgrade in the path of the existing Eagle product, Eagle 7 is a different product line from Eagle 8 and therefore the licenses do not conflict. Now you're saying that Eagle 8 is an upgrade to Eagle 7 and therefore you don't have to release any more bugfixes for Eagle 7? Which is it?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 08:00:23 pm
Jorge,

But you're saying that for licensing purposes, Eagle 8 is "brand new product" and is not an upgrade in the path of the existing Eagle product, Eagle 7 is a different product line from Eagle 8 and therefore the licenses do not conflict. Now you're saying that Eagle 8 is an upgrade to Eagle 7 and therefore you don't have to release any more bugfixes for Eagle 7? Which is it?

Hi Garrett,

All I said in my previous post is that Autodesk followed the same pattern as Cadsoft. When we were just Cadsoft (under Farnell and prior) the instant V6 came out, development on 5 stopped. Likewise when V7 came out development on V6 stopped. Now that Autodesk has released a new EAGLE, development on EAGLE V7 has stopped.

They are different products and because of this (as well as fitting within the pattern of behavior Cadsoft has always demonstrated), development on V7 of EAGLE has stopped. All development effort is now going into V8.

Let me know if there's still anything else that isn't clear.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 23, 2017, 08:13:45 pm
It's clear enough, but this indicates that you still consider Autodesk Eagle (Eagle 8 ) to be in the same major release chain as Eagle 4, 5, 6, and 7. That would indicate Eagle 7 would be considered a "Previous Version" under the licensing agreement, and especially if someone accepts a discounted subscription by virtue of having purchased Eagle 7 recently, then Autodesk Eagle would replace the existing version.

Cadsoft, to my knowledge, did not announce that Eagle 7 was end-of-life prior to the announcement of Eagle 8. Instead (as in previous major version releases) the announcement of the next major version release served as the indicator that the previous version was EOL. If you follow the same process here, this indicates that Autodesk Eagle, in contrast with your earlier statement, is not a "brand new product" but is considered a major version release in the same product line as Eagle 7. Therefore the licensing follows through and the disturbing clause 1.2.1 may still be in effect.

Otherwise: are you saying that if I received a discounted price to upgrade to Eagle 8, that still does not affect my existing Eagle 7 license, and I can legally allow an employee to use that Eagle 7 license simultaneously with my own use of Eagle 8?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Nauris on January 23, 2017, 09:04:18 pm
Just two months ago I purchased Eagle 7.7 Ultimate and with these new licensing conditions I am certainly not going to upgrade. 7.7 works good enough for my needs.

I have some requirements for any development software I put in use:

1. I must be able to maintain any product and tooling as long as I need. All software must work without any vendor (who may or may not exist ten or twenty years down the road) support or activation servers.
2. No data may be transferred out to any external server or cloud.
3. Software must work on a computer isolated from Internet.

These are strict requirements. If I were to buy new EDA software now, EAGLE would be out of consideration because it does not meet these basic requirements.
 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkS on January 23, 2017, 09:34:33 pm
Just two months ago I purchased Eagle 7.7 Ultimate and with these new licensing conditions I am certainly not going to upgrade. 7.7 works good enough for my needs.

I have some requirements for any development software I put in use:

1. I must be able to maintain any product and tooling as long as I need. All software must work without any vendor (who may or may not exist ten or twenty years down the road) support or activation servers.
2. No data may be transferred out to any external server or cloud.
3. Software must work on a computer isolated from Internet.

These are strict requirements. If I were to buy new EDA software now, EAGLE would be out of consideration because it does not meet these basic requirements.
 

Strict? Those are common sense requirements. What ever happened to common sense?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 23, 2017, 09:37:57 pm
Cadsoft, to my knowledge, did not announce that Eagle 7 was end-of-life prior to the announcement of Eagle 8. Instead (as in previous major version releases) the announcement of the next major version release served as the indicator that the previous version was EOL. If you follow the same process here, this indicates that Autodesk Eagle, in contrast with your earlier statement, is not a "brand new product" but is considered a major version release in the same product line as Eagle 7. Therefore the licensing follows through and the disturbing clause 1.2.1 may still be in effect.

Otherwise: are you saying that if I received a discounted price to upgrade to Eagle 8, that still does not affect my existing Eagle 7 license, and I can legally allow an employee to use that Eagle 7 license simultaneously with my own use of Eagle 8?

Hi Garrett,

First off, Cadsoft never did formal EOL announcements I don't know if Autodesk does either. The discount for existing users is being done as a courtesy(I think that's the least that can be done in light of the antagonism towards subscription). Notice how that last few post from me don't mention 8, as far as Autodesk is concerned to the world there is only Autodesk EAGLE. The software may still show a version number in some places but from a legal and marketing perspective Cadsoft is nowhere to be found.

To directly answer your question, yes your scenario is perfectly acceptable. The workflow might be uncomfortable but it's totally OK. You can have an employee using V7 and you be using Autodesk EAGLE no problem. Like I mentioned before Autodesk EAGLE is a new product to Autodesk it is not an upgrade to V7. We have been purposely instructed to avoid the term upgrade because it doesn't apply, if you see it anywhere it is the specific poster's own error.

hth,
Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 23, 2017, 11:30:02 pm
Thanks Jorge, that does help clarify things. Especially laying out specifically that Autodesk considers Eagle 7 and Autodesk Eagle to be different product lines, and that a subscriber is in fact renting a second Eagle license in addition to the perpetual one they might already own. However, any past versions of Eagle are now permanently frozen, and Eagle 7.7 will not receive any additional updates no matter what OS incompatibility or security vulnerabilities are discovered. Thanks for making it very clear.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 23, 2017, 11:35:52 pm
Agreed, that clarification makes sense.  I don't see any point in beating up Jorge over whether EAGLE 8 is considered an upgrade or a separate product.  The fact that CadSoft doesn't owe me anything beyond the V7.7 release is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.  They add useful features to the software.  I give them money in exchange for licenses.  Until I need more licenses, or until they add more features that I want, we're done. 

This equilibrium has worked well for decades.  Holding my files hostage in a danegeld-by-subscription scheme isn't part of the equation.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 24, 2017, 12:02:20 am
I didn't particularly like chasing Matt and Jorge in circles around this issue either, nor do I like reading legalese, but I needed the answer. Glad we now have it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 24, 2017, 12:04:20 am
The discount for existing users is being done as a courtesy(I think that's the least that can be done in light of the antagonism towards subscription).

Hey Jorge,

How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license? The only mention of it I've seen has been to email someone and ask for it. When I re-evaluate my choice of PCB software I will give Eagle 8 a fair chance, but I'm not likely to get around to it for a while.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 24, 2017, 07:27:03 am
Jorge,

Can we still buy the old V7 license (Ultimate)?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 24, 2017, 07:42:15 am
I didn't particularly like chasing Matt and Jorge in circles around this issue either, nor do I like reading legalese, but I needed the answer. Glad we now have it.
If you NEED it I would recommend emailing the company and ask for a response, since any posts on this forum from employees are for the responsibility of said employees only and are legally not binding for the company, eg you still have nothing and if you need a valid legal response for your business I would go through the proper channels to get it.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 24, 2017, 10:44:23 am
If it's "just" Autodesk Eagle, why does it install as 8.0?  Just like the others but with 8 rather than 7.

In fact, the install looks quite messy, it's riddled with the QT libraries now, the "bin" folder contains just images, and what is the HLSL D3D compiler for?  It has no 3D, why do you need the shader compiler?

I'm not convinced by this new version at all, and what's up with the no x32 bit now, I have an old laptop that runs a 32 bit OS that I used if I was away and didn't care if it got lost or broken, was OK for schematic checking and layout, which this new version buggers me up 2 fold!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 24, 2017, 03:26:30 pm
Yes, that is what I noticed as well. If you know how to compile Qt you will try to static link the libs you need, and not include all the dll's.
If they use one simple class from the 3D lib, you will need the entire 3D lib with dynamic linking. Which led me to assume they don't have Qt license. But that would be strange.

I don't know how many of the original developers are still left. If none, I think they will just need to get going first. Give them a year or two to develop, then judge again.
Software is hard, especially maintenance on existing large projects.

My opinion on the license system with subscription is that they exclude a large part of the original target audience. The target audience of such system are medium to large companies.
For personal or self-employed it's expensive if you calculate it to hourly price. However, a one time fee of 500 and yearly 50 renewal would be fine for me.

A more fair way would be to pay per block of x hours of actual use. But the implementation leaves a lot of space for discussion.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: plazma on January 24, 2017, 03:39:13 pm
FYI the student licence is Premium. So if you are a student you can get the EAGLE 8.0 Premium for FREE!!!

I just started an embedded course where you also have to design the PCB.
Now I have to decide between Eagle Premium or Kicad....
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on January 24, 2017, 04:09:08 pm
A number of people have said they are happy with a subscription model. Here's why, for some people, a subscription model is a killer.

It's a sad fact of life that many small and medium sized businesses (SMEs) go through the occasional cash-flow crisis. I've worked for, or with, a lot of SMEs and I've seen a lot of those cash flow crises even in well managed companies. What determines whether a business survives a cash-flow crisis is whether they have effective ways of minimizing their cash outgoings while still being able to manage business as usual.

If you own assets you need for your business you can sweat them. Delay upgrades to software and hardware, put up with the crappy old delivery van that needs careful coaxing to start in winter, don't buy the custom reception carpet with the logo in it*, persuade the staff to put off bonuses and rises until the crisis is over and so on.

If you rent any thing that is essential to your business you can't put off paying for it, it isn't an asset, it's a liability, it can't be sweated. If you can't pay for it you stop being able to do your work, if you pay for it in preference to other essentials you can't do what they are required for.

With that in mind, I would say that it is a fool who rents something essential to his business that isn't fungible (that is easily replaced with something similar, mutually exchangeable). Premises are fungible, cloud hosting is arguably fungible but something like software that requires retraining and/or retooling isn't fungible.

The current market for Eagle is SMEs and hobbyists. Wise SMEs know they will likely face cash flow problems at some point. Given the choice between the 'sweatable' asset of a perpetual software licence and the ongoing liability of a rental model the wise SME is going to take the former choice every time.  Wise SMEs eventually grow, foolish ones go out of business.

Ergo, Autocad has just sown the seeds of Eagle becoming a hobbyist only product while simultaneously changing their available licences to make it a less attractive product to a section of the hobbyist market (who I suspect they don't really want and don't really care about).

* I once had a company that made custom carpets as one of my customers. They stopped supplying SMEs directly because it seemed that the arrival of a custom carpet with the company logo in the reception area of an SME was a clear marker that the company was on the verge of going out of business and therefore would, most likely, not actually pay the bill for said carpet. Other signs to look out for are frequent reorganizations of offices or product lines, aka "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 24, 2017, 05:17:35 pm
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 24, 2017, 05:57:21 pm
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers. Why would I pay for Obsolescence as a Service. Cerebus' non-sweatable resource point is also very good. Many small businesses fluctuate in cash flow as they crack into a new market and take necessary risks. With my current license of Eagle, I could survive nearly anything; the jettison of product lines and warehouse/shop space, I could pare down and down until all I need to climb back up is my computer, my install of Eagle, a couch, and a client for contract design work.

It's the grand tradition of a workman owning their tools. As long as a carpenter has a hammer and saw they can find work. I propose finding your nearest plumber, carpenter, or welder and telling them about a new plan where they pay a monthly fee that would be enough to buy their tools outright in three years, but they have to keep paying and if they can't pay you come take the tools away.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MagicSmoker on January 24, 2017, 06:21:22 pm
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers....

Two other major problems that can happen as a result of subscription model software forcing "upgrades" upon users are a loss of backward compatibility with older files and the introduction of a fatal bug that brings work to a halt. I've experienced both of these delightful scenarios and it is why, for example, I have waited until I am NOT in the middle of a project to install the latest version of EAGLE (well, that and the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on January 24, 2017, 06:45:09 pm
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

This is a comforting analysis.  But flawed. 

It isn't great for Autodesk.  Because it doesn't provide the steady revenue stream they covet, either because they are loving, caring employers of a dedicated software development team, or because they are greedy.  If turn ons and turn offs of the subscription were a purely random thing you might make an argument for it, but strangely, bad economic times run in cycles.  So there will be good times and bad times just as there are now.  I am sure they are planning on the vast majority of their subscribers maintaining a continuous subscription.  If a significant fraction of their subscriptions turn out to be intermittent I foresee modifications to the model.  Penalties for dropping and restarting or something like that.  (Could be recast positive by announcing a cross the board price increase with discounts for continuous subscribers.)

There are additional problems for the intermittent subscriber model.  If each upgrade is not comprehensive there will be significant problems bringing intermittent license holders up to date when they re-subscribe.  If they are comprehensive there will be complaints about all the time spent on installation.  By all users, but most particularly by those coveted continuous subscribers.

All software ends up finding itself painted into a corner from time to time, and has to make a change which affects backwards compatibility.  With continuous users there is usually a transition period when transition tools and support are provided.  Factor in intermittent users and the transition time (and thus costs) will have to be extended.  Bad for Autodesk if they do a lengthy transition support, bad for users if they don't.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 24, 2017, 06:58:34 pm
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers....

... the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

I worried about this. As near as I can tell, V8 of Eagle picked up all of my older preferences and file locations.  I had no issues bringing in a pre-8 design.

To be fair, file compatibility has never been an eagle trademark. Just ask OSHPARK about their non-stop Herculean efforts to keep their file importer compatible with Eagle over the years. Autodesk has a pretty good culture of backward/forward file compatibility practices, so I would expect this situation to get better, not worse.

Like I've said, expect Autodesk to make some mis-steps. They do, however, listen to reason. It's 2017, and I still have my beloved command-line input in AutoCad, which is still there after a massive riot by crusty curmudgeons such as yours truly, when it was removed somewhere in the early 90's.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on January 24, 2017, 07:01:54 pm
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

I do not think AutoDesk will make it easy to stop/start subscriptions - and maybe even put limits on how often you change.

But since it now is internet auto-check in software - why not just bill automatically for the months the product have been used? No need to press a pause button - just don't use it in that billable period - and AutoDesk won't bill... But that will never happen.... But that would be the fair way - and a true Pay as You Go model. If that was the case I would probably subscribe to  AutoDesk Inventor on a monthly basis - as I have maybe one to three projects a year in it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on January 24, 2017, 07:20:11 pm
@LabSpokane: I appreciate you being an apologist for Autodesk.  It is easy to forget that EAGLE has a chance to grow up and become a professional level tool under the auspices of Autodesk.  However, with the hard-line, non-negotiable nature of their subscription model, there will be growing pains and the EAGLE target market will change.  Good for the new market, maybe bad for the old.  Evolve or die, right? 

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.
I don't think anyone would dispute how cost-effective the subscription model can be for someone who engages in what you rightly point out to be "professional PCB design".

Quote
For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
Reading the various threads here, on EAGLE Central, and on the official Autodesk forum, I think the two biggest discussion points are that, 1) many EAGLE users are hobby/small business/prosumer types who now feel alienated because they are losing the sense of ownership that comes with paying for tools that one gets to keep using forever (we were part of what felt like a small community that used a cool tool and we proudly wanted to support that), and 2) even if the subscription model is acceptable, many users don't want, or can't have, a required connection to the Internet.

In my decades in the computer business, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth many times.  Thin client, thick client, thin client.  Cloud- and subscription-based services are merely the latest iteration of thin client.  At some point, businesses will realize that they want to cut their operations (cloud and subscription) expenses and will switch those funds back into capital budgets.  Some of us haven't been big enough to have large operations budgets or to take advantage of the accounting benefits of them, so we're still spending capital money to own our own assets...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iampoor on January 24, 2017, 07:24:39 pm
You guys have no idea the awesome that is about to drop.  ;D

That screenshot only shows a few of the new things coming, there's even more that isn't shown on that screen.

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to say much. I do encourage everyone to join the Hack-chat happening tomorrow on hackaday.
http://hackaday.com/2017/01/11/friday-hack-chat-eagle-pcb-design-with-matt-berggren (http://hackaday.com/2017/01/11/friday-hack-chat-eagle-pcb-design-with-matt-berggren)

Matt and I will be available to answer questions and discuss.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Autodesk
Product Support Specialist for EAGLE

More like, your company has no idea how much we all collectively hate Autodesk now. Thanks for ruining the CAD tool I have put the last 3 years of my work into. Of course, Its not like your company cares, because I am a 1 man band, and I wont be making you any richer.

The corporate accounts will not be feeling the pricing change (of course, why any corporation would be using Eagle with all of its bugs is beyond me), but the little guy like me is now is some trouble. I wish I got over the interface of Kicad and stuck with it.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iampoor on January 24, 2017, 07:37:10 pm
The axe has finally dropped. The CAD companies need continuing profits or they will not bother continuing to support this kind of tool because they are greedy bastards and have always been. For professionals who are continuously doing designs the $500 a year price per seat is not in issue. Its just the cost of doing business. For others who just do a few things a year or small companies with long standing products this is a real shaft. We fit into the category and will continue loafing along on our previous purchased in full Lic. until we cant use it anymore.  At that time if subscription is the only option available, apart from open source of course, we will most likely just jump up to one seat of Altium and it will just be "The company" pcb design workstation. Cadsoft was no prize, but this is just big business trying to fleece small business.

Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.

I hope Autodesk realizes that all they are doing is screwing the end users. I am really looking forward to the backlash, and can only hope that it will gain enough momentum for the corporate loonies to realize how they are annexing the core usergroup of this software.



 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 24, 2017, 07:53:52 pm
Two other major problems that can happen as a result of subscription model software forcing "upgrades" upon users are a loss of backward compatibility with older files and the introduction of a fatal bug that brings work to a halt. I've experienced both of these delightful scenarios and it is why, for example, I have waited until I am NOT in the middle of a project to install the latest version of EAGLE (well, that and the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

Hi MagicSmoker,

In the case of Autodesk EAGLE, you are not forced to update. When an update becomes available, a button will show up on the Control panel. Click the button only when you want to perform the update. Totally understand the not updating in the middle of a project situation.

As far as EAGLE installing itself into a new directory, that is intentional to avoid the risk of damaging something in an existing working installation. The easiest way to make your customizations portable is to put them all in the eagle.scr and default-assign.scr files. All you have to do is copy these two files between versions to bring all of your customizations along.

hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 24, 2017, 08:03:18 pm
Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.


Hi iampoor,

If you are a student you get the EAGLE premium for FREE. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. With the new release many of the most difficult interface quirks have been addressed, the rest will continue to be addressed as EAGLE improves.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 24, 2017, 08:09:29 pm
Hey Jorge,

How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license? The only mention of it I've seen has been to email someone and ask for it. When I re-evaluate my choice of PCB software I will give Eagle 8 a fair chance, but I'm not likely to get around to it for a while.

Thanks.

Hi Beard,

I'm not allowed to say the amount on forums and as far as how long the only thing I can say is that it's limited time. The discount applies to all previous users of EAGLE doesn't matter what license or version(except freeware you must have had a paid EAGLE license at some point in time). You have to contact lourdes.vasquez@autodesk.com to get the full details.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 24, 2017, 08:12:09 pm
Jorge,

Can we still buy the old V7 license (Ultimate)?

Hi Karel,

Once Autodesk EAGLE released all sales of V7 halted. If you were to buy today, you could only buy the new subscription based version.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 24, 2017, 08:23:47 pm
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

I do not think AutoDesk will make it easy to stop/start subscriptions - and maybe even put limits on how often you change.

Umm, it's easy to manage right now and starting/stopping is done online via a license manager control panel in your Autodesk account. It's been this for at least a couple of years. It is designed to manage and allocate/de-allocate licenses among a team of users.

=======

As for the name-calling, such as "loonies."  That kind of stuff is totally over the top. Autodesk is here trying to help you right now. Give civility a try. You might like it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iampoor on January 24, 2017, 08:27:06 pm
Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.


Hi iampoor,

If you are a student you get the EAGLE premium for FREE. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. With the new release many of the most difficult interface quirks have been addressed, the rest will continue to be addressed as EAGLE improves.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

But then I will just be locked in to whatever Autodesk wants. I already have over 300 projects in Eagle. Migrating all of this over to another platform is already going to be a big enough nightmare. At this point, I do NOT want to take the bait of a free upgrade to your premium package, knowing that I will be at Autodesks mercy for the foreseeable future. The problem will only get exponentially worse. What happens when Autodesk decides Eagle doesnt make enough money and drops support? Given how your company has already reneged on key selling points and promises of Eagle, I would have to be a dunce to believe that it will not happen again!

I think your managers need to purchase a bigger hose to put out all of these fires. No matter how fast and comprehensivly you respond to this thread, you will not change the fact that many of your core users have been alienated.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on January 24, 2017, 08:46:49 pm
@LabSpokane: I appreciate you being an apologist for Autodesk.  It is easy to forget that EAGLE has a chance to grow up and become a professional level tool under the auspices of Autodesk.  However, with the hard-line, non-negotiable nature of their subscription model, there will be growing pains and the EAGLE target market will change.  Good for the new market, maybe bad for the old.  Evolve or die, right? 

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.
I don't think anyone would dispute how cost-effective the subscription model can be for someone who engages in what you rightly point out to be "professional PCB design".

Quote
For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
Reading the various threads here, on EAGLE Central, and on the official Autodesk forum, I think the two biggest discussion points are that, 1) many EAGLE users are hobby/small business/prosumer types who now feel alienated because they are losing the sense of ownership that comes with paying for tools that one gets to keep using forever (we were part of what felt like a small community that used a cool tool and we proudly wanted to support that), and 2) even if the subscription model is acceptable, many users don't want, or can't have, a required connection to the Internet.

In my decades in the computer business, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth many times.  Thin client, thick client, thin client.  Cloud- and subscription-based services are merely the latest iteration of thin client.  At some point, businesses will realize that they want to cut their operations (cloud and subscription) expenses and will switch those funds back into capital budgets.  Some of us haven't been big enough to have large operations budgets or to take advantage of the accounting benefits of them, so we're still spending capital money to own our own assets...

I'm not apologizing as much as trying to explain why some of the wild assertions being made about this change are demonstrably false.

I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront. I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue. Things just don't work that way.

Moreover, verbally abusing the tech support at Autodesk is totally counter productive. This kind of behavior is clearly demonstrating that Eagle's existing base is a market that isn't worth serving. It would hardly surprise me to know that a VP's hand is already hovering over the abort button, ready to write down this entire mess as soon as possible.  That would certainly kill development of Eagle off permanently as Eagle is likely more valuable in the balance sheet  loss column than it is to re-market. Autodesk is surely Eagle's last rodeo.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 24, 2017, 08:49:20 pm
It's the grand tradition of a workman owning their tools. As long as a carpenter has a hammer and saw they can find work. I propose finding your nearest plumber, carpenter, or welder and telling them about a new plan where they pay a monthly fee that would be enough to buy their tools outright in three years, but they have to keep paying and if they can't pay you come take the tools away.

To play Devil's Advocate, a lot of automotive repair and industrial companies *do* lease their tools. SnapOn uses this business model, to great success I might add.

In fact, a lot of mechanics in training that go to a Technical College for automotive repair are required to rent their own tool chest from SnapOn, which costs several hundred dollars a month, on top of tuition. Though, it's actually more of a "rent to own" or financing scenario; basically SnapOn says the tools cost X to buy outright, but we'll rent them to you for Y per month, once you've paid X+25% you can keep them, in the mean time, if you stop paying we get the tools back. (Typically these tool sets can cost between $5000-$10000 this way!)

Some auto repair, industrial and manufacturing companies will lease tool sets from SnapOn. It tends to be very expensive, but you *do* get a high quality of service. For example, if one of your tools breaks, you lose a socket or you need some specialty tool for a day that's not part of your set, you call the local office and the SnapOn man shows up in his box truck full of tools with a replacement or whatever you need.

For a small to medium company that needs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tools (plus maintenance costs), leasing for $2000 a month (or more, or less) may actually be a smart move (in fact it may be the only way they can operate in the beginning).

Having said that, allow me to return to the side of the angels: I've seen at least one business close down (and several others on the verge of bankruptcy) specifically because they leased their tools. Essentially, business was slow for a couple of months, cash got very tight, their tools were taken away, then a big order came in and they couldn't fulfill it.

I would *never* lease, rent, whatever *any* tool that my business depends on to operate. For me, that's EDA software.

SaS makes sense for something like web based invoicing software, because I can always do by hand with spreadsheet software if I have to and I can keep PDF copies of all the invoices I generate (plus a CSV file of everything); it doesn't make sense for PCB software, especially if I might need to open that file 10 years from now, but can't because AutoDesk decided to shutter Eagle completely.

Basically, if I can't archive a VM containing Windows, my PCB software *and* the design files for *each* client project, which allows me to go back and make changes tomorrow or ten years from now, then it's no good to me. I know a lot of other designers that feel the same way, so good luck with your monthly approach to Eagle. Call me when you decide to go back to a perpetual license. (I'd be OK with an optional yearly update fee on top of that, so long as I have the option to own it.)

Edit: You know, I don't think this would have received nearly as much backlash if Eagle was in the same league as Altium or Cadence... But they're not!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on January 24, 2017, 09:35:13 pm
I'm not apologizing as much as trying to explain why some of the wild assertions being made about this change are demonstrably false.
a·pol·o·gist
??päl?j?st/
noun
a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.
synonyms:   defender, supporter, upholder, advocate, proponent, exponent, propagandist, champion, campaigner; informal cheerleader

Quote
I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront.
Agreed.  But that's for the new market I was talking about, not the old (previous/current) market.  Put a different way, how would I feel if I popped $1700 a couple months ago, and now new users only have to come up with $65 to get an improved version of what I have?  I worked hard for that $1700!  At least I get to keep using the software I paid for, and there's certainly not much motivation to start paying a monthly fee on top of what I've already paid, *especially* if it's for something that gets turned off when I stop paying!

Quote
I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue.
I don't think anybody is against Autodesk making an honest buck.  But I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel like they're now being (or will be) held hostage.  IMHO, you're trying to turn an emotional issue into a logical one by discounting the emotion.  ;)  I know, I know, engineers don't deal well with emotion. :box: :scared: :-DD

Quote
Moreover, verbally abusing the tech support at Autodesk is totally counter productive. This kind of behavior is clearly demonstrating that Eagle's existing base is a market that isn't worth serving. It would hardly surprise me to know that a VP's hand is already hovering over the abort button, ready to write down this entire mess as soon as possible.  That would certainly kill development of Eagle off permanently as Eagle is likely more valuable in the balance sheet  loss column than it is to re-market. Autodesk is surely Eagle's last rodeo.
Abuse is not good, but honesty is very important.  I think you're wrong; I believe that what you refer to as this "kind of behavior" shows how loyal EAGLE fans have been, and may yet be.  Hell hath no fury as a customer scorned, to paraphrase.  And if Autodesk is indeed ready for a write down, then that tells me they didn't do their homework before acquiring EAGLE.  If it's going to happen, I want it to happen sooner than later, so that I can stop being held hostage, cut the ties and move on.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 24, 2017, 09:45:36 pm
Hey Jorge,
How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license?

Hi Beard,
I'm not allowed to say the amount on forums and as far as how long the only thing I can say is that it's limited time.

That's a strange policy. Not sure whether this has been answered already, but anyway, I got a promotional email with the details from Autodesk today, and I don't see what should prevent me from sharing the details:

AutoCAD are offering a 50% discount on the first-year subscription, which seems to apply for buying renting either the new "EAGLE standard" or the "EAGLE premium" version. I currently have the Make version 7.6. Strangely, the email does not state for how long this offer is valid.


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 24, 2017, 09:49:59 pm
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 24, 2017, 09:57:56 pm
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)

For servers and email, it makes a lot of sense for companies that don't have in-house IT to use service provider. In fact, this has been pretty much the standard way to do things for the last 20 years.

For test equipment, I see a lot of small companies (1-50 engineers) buy the base tools (your daily driver scopes, 5.5 digit DMMs, etc.) and then rent the expensive tools when a project comes up that needs them (10GHz scopes, high frequency current probes, SMUs). That seems to be a cost effective approach to the problem.

(It's been my experience that some larger companies lease everything like you said, though some buy what they need as they need it.)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 24, 2017, 10:02:53 pm
That's a strange policy. Not sure weter this has been answered already, but anyway, I got a promotional email with the details from Autodesk today, and I don't see what should prevent me from sharing the details:
Hmmm this makes me wonder if they change the discount% based on which version you bought last.
For 50% indefinitely I might be tempted to jump on the ship, most off all since they also upgraded to 4 layers. It might become interesting, for me personally that is.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 24, 2017, 10:17:39 pm
And if I could only troubleshoot my designs with a FrobozzCo 6000SUX Magic Phosphor Oscilloscope, I wouldn't lease that, either.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Bassman59 on January 24, 2017, 10:27:27 pm
And if I could only troubleshoot my designs with a FrobozzCo 6000SUX Magic Phosphor Oscilloscope, I wouldn't lease that, either.

How many zorkmids does that MPO cost?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on January 24, 2017, 11:02:30 pm
I received an email today:
Quote
Hello Eagle user,
If you haven’t heard the good news by now, Autodesk EAGLE is available through our new EAGLE Subscription. No more having to find funds for the next upgrade. Here’s how it works:
1. Pay. Just a simple yearly subscription to get started.
2. Save. Get every new update at no extra cost.
3. Make. Create anything with the newest PCB design technologies.
We’re all really excited about the future of EAGLE and hope you can be a part of it. For staying with us over the years, here’s 50% off your first year of an EAGLE Subscription.
At only $250 per year, a subscription works out at less than your daily cup of coffee and it’ll boost your productivity more than the caffeine will!

I clicked  the button and went to the shopping cart.  Sorry @Kjelt, looks like it's EAGLE Premium only.

EDIT: I read later (below) that if you take Premium out of your cart, you can put Standard back in and get the 50% discount on it...

"No more having to find funds for the next upgrade."  ???  Oh yeah, now I only have to find funds right this instant for this upgrade, then a year from now I'll have to find more funds, and then a year after that, guaranteed.  It's just so simple! :-DD

"At only $250 per year, a subscription works out at less than your daily cup of coffee".  Umm, even using my Keurig 2.0, my daily coffee is $.50.  (Don Francisco Hawaiian Hazelnut or Vanilla Nut, 18 pack $8.99)  As for the productivity boost, do you mean in the first hour of the day?  :box:

And shouldn't that "At only $250 per year" really be "At only $250 for the first year only"?  If I wait a year before subscribing, I'll actually save $500 instead...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on January 24, 2017, 11:31:21 pm
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)

For servers and email, it makes a lot of sense for companies that don't have in-house IT to use service provider. In fact, this has been pretty much the standard way to do things for the last 20 years.

For test equipment, I see a lot of small companies (1-50 engineers) buy the base tools (your daily driver scopes, 5.5 digit DMMs, etc.) and then rent the expensive tools when a project comes up that needs them (10GHz scopes, high frequency current probes, SMUs). That seems to be a cost effective approach to the problem.

(It's been my experience that some larger companies lease everything like you said, though some buy what they need as they need it.)

Again, the magic word is fungible. Spanners are fungible, scopes are fungible, email service providers are fungible but EDA packages are not.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 25, 2017, 12:42:51 am
I don't think anybody is against Autodesk making an honest buck.  But I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel like they're now being (or will be) held hostage.  IMHO, you're trying to turn an emotional issue into a logical one by discounting the emotion.  ;)  I know, I know, engineers don't deal well with emotion. :box: :scared: :-DD

I don't think this is an emotional issue at all. Sure, people are upset, but their fundamental concerns are based on logical reasons why this is a big step backwards for users.

It definitely appears that this change is designed to turn the de-facto standard hobbyist/small business tool (which includes a lot of personal investment form the user base) into a cash cow. Sure Autodesk apologists and salesman are claiming that they are going to turn Eagle into a world class package, but the fact is they are asking people to pay them today in the hope that they will deliver on a vague, someday-maybe promise (which presumably new users will be able to get for the same price as those who subsidize this development with a current subscription).

Further, the user base doesn't want a world class package. They bought into Eagle because they wanted an affordable package that was more useable than something like KiCad.

To be clear, I really don't care. I never have been nor will I ever be an Eagle user (KiCad for me, thanks). I'm just here because I think this is an interesting discussion.

It's also going to be interesting watching this develop. I'm not entirely convinced that Eagle is going to survive this given how thoroughly they've misunderstood the current user base (which is the best thing Eagle has going for it). On the other hand, they might. They certainly have their users by the balls. I wonder how many actually follow through and do the enormous amount of work to get off Eagle.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on January 25, 2017, 12:46:22 am

I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront. I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue. Things just don't work that way.




My son made this analysis about four years ago with respect to the MS Office suite.  When the option to buy existed.  And lamented to me that he has now paid much more than the purchase price would have been.  This simplistic analysis can be followed by a true opportunity cost analysis, but when interest rates are as low as they are now, and when overall growth is not great, the answers are not significantly different.

Your last statement can be inverted.  People don't continue paying rent when there is no value (except in monopoly markets).

The real question comes down to maturity and stability of the product.  MS Office of fifteen years ago was usable, and for the vast majority of folks, just as capable as the current product.  An ECAD program is not going to stay stable as long, at least not while packaging technology continues to move, but it remains to be seen what the value added in future versions will be, and whether that value returns the cost of rent.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on January 25, 2017, 01:16:46 am
In the early days of DRM digital music, I purchased a few $hundred in songs. When I no longer subscribed to the service it would no longer authenticate the playback. Crap.
I had a number of Apple computers and devices with iTunes. I purchased iTunes music. When I moved to PC's and Android, I no longer had any access to the music I 'owned'. Crap.

I use Office 365 and I like it. If I ever move to another way of doing spreadsheets and documents - I can buy the standalone versions and stop the subscription to have access to legacy data. Yay!
I use Adobe products on subscription as well. Same thing, I have the option of buying the perpetual versions if I want to stop the subscription and preserve access. Perfect.

Every one of my mission critical engineering softwares are perpetual and that is the only way I will go. I am moving toward an internet isolated LAN configuration and I want continuous access to all of my old data all the time until the end of time.
If Eagle has no perpetual license, I will simply move on to one that does for my business. In general, I do not like Eagle but it is what I could afford to get started with. Now that I have enormous amounts of time learning and building a library, custom ULP's, keyboard shortcuts, etc - it is a pain to move as most have already pointed out. I am on 6.5 and was hopeful that the 7 would be an actual upgrade, but it was not.

I would rather finance Altium designer and own it at the end of the financing than pay monthly for Eagle which I would not own or control the update rollouts. It costs more money, but it seems to be vastly superior. I tried some cheap 3D CAD software in the late 90's and it burned up so much time. When I paid far more to get SolidWorks, I saved all that in time super quick.

Unless Eagle actually produces better software, I am not inclined to give them any money.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 25, 2017, 01:33:30 am
To play Devil's Advocate, a lot of automotive repair and industrial companies *do* lease their tools. SnapOn uses this business model, to great success I might add.

In fact, a lot of mechanics in training that go to a Technical College for automotive repair are required to rent their own tool chest from SnapOn, which costs several hundred dollars a month, on top of tuition. Though, it's actually more of a "rent to own" or financing scenario; basically SnapOn says the tools cost X to buy outright, but we'll rent them to you for Y per month, once you've paid X+25% you can keep them, in the mean time, if you stop paying we get the tools back. (Typically these tool sets can cost between $5000-$10000 this way!)


The difference is that the mechanic eventually owns the tools and was just financing the purchase. The subscription model never leads to ownership or perpetual use of the tools. That's where the analogy breaks down and your argument with it. Also the mechanic can use another tool companies product to access an industry standard sized nut. That is another difference with software having proprietry file formats.

If a CAD file could be used with any CAD package this whole debate would have far less emotion attached to it and noone would feel trapped or vulnerable to future changes.

Right, and that was kind of my point... The subscription model with no option to own just doesn't work for tools that are central to your business.

For what it's worth, most EDA packages have some form of Eagle import. So, in a pinch it's there.

We really do need a industry standard file format. *Sighs*
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: aandrew on January 25, 2017, 03:11:09 am
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

There's a huge difference between leasing a scope or a toolbox full of wrenches and pliers and leasing software which cannot be easily and practically instantly transferable to another platform.

If I get fed up with Snap-On, I can go buy some one else's wrenches and not lose a single day in productivity.

If I get fed up with Tektronix, I can buy or lease Aglient, Yokogawa, LeCroy or a half dozen other vendors without losing much productivity.

If I get fed up with my EDA software, I'm well and truly f'd because it takes weeks to get up to speed and possibly months to get all my libraries, scripts and other odds and ends sorted.

You can't compare the these things to leasing your EDA software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 25, 2017, 06:28:40 am
Eagle has this huge weak spot in the way it stores files as XML. Everyone can read and import this.
You will know AutoDesk has bad capitalistic intentions when they change this.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 25, 2017, 08:11:00 am
I clicked  the button and went to the shopping cart.  Sorry @Kjelt, looks like it's EAGLE Premium only.
Bummer I wanted to give them the benefit of doubt.
I also clicked on my email, it says $100 per year which today is €93 due to the Trumpthing ;) .
Ok go to order.
€93.- changes suddenly to €110.- ($118)  :o ex 21% VAT totals to  €133 ($142) :scared:
That is the same amount as I spent three years ago for the perpetual hobby license with 6 layers and 100x160mm2 capability.
Now they want this each and every year, yeah right, it feels like the mob enters my home (we want you to pay each month for protection)  ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 25, 2017, 10:00:18 am
I received an email today:
Quote
Hello Eagle user,
If you haven’t heard the good news by now, Autodesk EAGLE is available through our new EAGLE Subscription. No more having to find funds for the next upgrade. Here’s how it works:
1. Pay. Just a simple yearly subscription to get started.
2. Save. Get every new update at no extra cost.
3. Make. Create anything with the newest PCB design technologies.
We’re all really excited about the future of EAGLE and hope you can be a part of it. For staying with us over the years, here’s 50% off your first year of an EAGLE Subscription.
At only $250 per year, a subscription works out at less than your daily cup of coffee and it’ll boost your productivity more than the caffeine will!

I clicked  the button and went to the shopping cart.  Sorry @Kjelt, looks like it's EAGLE Premium only.

No, the discount seems to apply for the Standard edition as well. The  link in the email takes you straight to a shopping cart which already contains the Premium edition. But I could remove that from the cart, go back to the main site, put a Standard edition into the cart, and was offered the 50% discount as well. I did not follow through with purchasing the subscription however, so there might still be some last-minute catch in the process.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rob77 on January 25, 2017, 10:01:39 am
are we that far with miniaturisation that 8mm x 10mm board is enough to try the new eagle ?  :-DD :-DD :-DD
they say 80mm2 routing area in tghe free version... 80mm2 is roughly the footprint of a DIP8  :-DD
they really should pay more attention to the PR texts :D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eagle/the-autodesk-eagle-edition/?action=dlattach;attach=287484)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: nazcalines on January 25, 2017, 10:29:52 am
I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront.

In my case, I don't use the autorouter, so it was $1145. At $65/month it would take 1.5 years to break even with the old price and after that free to use for as long as I care to. After 4-5 years, thousands of dollars in savings vs renting. The old Cadsoft would even discount your upgrade!

I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue. Things just don't work that way.

It's not our problem they bought it for $30MM or whatever. It's on them to produce compelling features at a price point that makes sense, and so far I'm not seeing it. Maybe they will get there eventually.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 25, 2017, 10:34:03 am
Hey Jorge,
How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license?

Hi Beard,
I'm not allowed to say the amount on forums and as far as how long the only thing I can say is that it's limited time.

That's a strange policy. Not sure whether this has been answered already, but anyway, I got a promotional email with the details from Autodesk today, and I don't see what should prevent me from sharing the details:

AutoCAD are offering a 50% discount on the first-year subscription, which seems to apply for buying renting either the new "EAGLE standard" or the "EAGLE premium" version. I currently have the Make version 7.6. Strangely, the email does not state for how long this offer is valid.

Thanks. I have an eagle license and I got the original launch email, but no email about the discount. Odd.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 25, 2017, 11:17:11 am
And shouldn't that "At only $250 per year" really be "At only $250 for the first year only"?  If I wait a year before subscribing, I'll actually save $500 instead...

So Autodesks sales argument is "save money by spending more" :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rob77 on January 25, 2017, 11:50:29 am
Thanks. I have an eagle license and I got the original launch email, but no email about the discount. Odd.

probably they sending those out in batches... i have only the Make edition license (the non commercial for 160Euros) and received the mail with the offer - but the link in the mail takes me to the premium version.. despite the fact that i currently have a non-commercial license.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 25, 2017, 11:54:45 am
It's also going to be interesting watching this develop. I'm not entirely convinced that Eagle is going to survive this given how thoroughly they've misunderstood the current user base (which is the best thing Eagle has going for it). On the other hand, they might. They certainly have their users by the balls. I wonder how many actually follow through and do the enormous amount of work to get off Eagle.

Considering the user base I'd assume that there won't be much users moving to the subscription model. Eagle is a semi-professional EDA package and the users are hobbyists, makers and SMEs. With the subscription model most of them will simply turn around and leave. Making Eagle into a first class EDA doesn't work either because there's Altium and so on. Companies using those EDA packages won't suddenly move to Eagle. If Autodesk want's Eagle to be a viable product they have to stay with the current user base. This leads to two possible routes Autodesk can take, either return to non-subscription or drop Eagle (stop development and sales or sell the Eagle business further on). Either way Autotesk has created so much uncertainty that Eagle is badly damaged.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: IanJ on January 25, 2017, 12:12:28 pm
It's also going to be interesting watching this develop. I'm not entirely convinced that Eagle is going to survive this given how thoroughly they've misunderstood the current user base (which is the best thing Eagle has going for it). On the other hand, they might. They certainly have their users by the balls. I wonder how many actually follow through and do the enormous amount of work to get off Eagle.
Considering the user base I'd assume that there won't be much users moving to the subscription model. Eagle is a semi-professional EDA package and the users are hobbyists, makers and SMEs. With the subscription model most of them will simply turn around and leave. Making Eagle into a first class EDA doesn't work either because there's Altium and so on. Companies using those EDA packages won't suddenly move to Eagle. If Autodesk want's Eagle to be a viable product they have to stay with the current user base. This leads to two possible routes Autodesk can take, either return to non-subscription or drop Eagle (stop development and sales or sell the Eagle business further on). Either way Autotesk has created so much uncertainty that Eagle is badly damaged.

Hi all,

I don't think necessarily that folks will leave Eagle......I think for the time being they will just skip an upgrade and see what develops over the next year or so. The economy is weak around the globe anyways so the chance for SME's etc to defer any upgrade may be worth doing. EaglePcb V6 and V7 still work fine and can still tackle anything V8 can do.
The issue is that this is exactly what Autodesk won't want to happen..............
IMO, if the subscription model is here to stay then Autodesk need to put some serious work into the software and step it up a few notches. Just think, not only is there KiCad, there's also CircuitStudio and CircuitMaker out there now also.
Problem is, the longer Autodesk take to mess around will make it all the harder for them. I wonder if direction is lacking within them already?

Just my opinion.

Ian.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 25, 2017, 12:39:10 pm
I don't think necessarily that folks will leave Eagle......I think for the time being they will just skip an upgrade and see what develops over the next year or so. The economy is weak around the globe anyways so the chance for SME's etc to defer any upgrade may be worth doing. EaglePcb V6 and V7 still work fine and can still tackle anything V8 can do.

The issue is that this is exactly what Autodesk won't want to happen..............
IMO, if the subscription model is here to stay then Autodesk need to put some serious work into the software and step it up a few notches. Just think, not only is there KiCad, there's also CircuitStudio and CircuitMaker out there now also.
Problem is, the longer Autodesk take to mess around will make it all the harder for them. I wonder if direction is lacking within them already?

I agree. Waiting for a year or so is certainly the approach I personally intend to take. If Autodesk keeps developing and publishing relevant enhancements to Eagle, I might be willing to switch to a subscription model and help fund that development. But I have no rush to upgrade from version 7.x, so I will watch for a while.

Essentially, Autodesk will have to impress me with upgrades that make the commitment to regular subscription payments worthwhile. And they will have to gain my trust and convince me that they will keep improving Eagle in the long run, because I am making a bet on continued development by committing to continued subscription payments.

Of course, on the "gaining trust" front it does not help that Autodesk have forgotten about their "Eagle is not going subscription" statement within less than half a year. So how are they going to convince us that they will keep investing in Eagle development for years to come?

Speculation/conspiracy theory: I would not be surprised if Eagle 9.0 brings another change of file formats, which conveniently breaks compatibility of version 7 with newly created files. Trying to force the stubborn users of version 7 to upgrade, and preventing disappointed users of 9.x from cancelling their subscriptions and falling back onto their archived version 7 (if the updates should become less frequent or less relevant in the future)...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 25, 2017, 01:01:26 pm
Considering the user base I'd assume that there won't be much users moving to the subscription model. Eagle is a semi-professional EDA package and the users are hobbyists, makers and SMEs. With the subscription model most of them will simply turn around and leave. Making Eagle into a first class EDA doesn't work either because there's Altium and so on. Companies using those EDA packages won't suddenly move to Eagle. If Autodesk want's Eagle to be a viable product they have to stay with the current user base. This leads to two possible routes Autodesk can take, either return to non-subscription or drop Eagle (stop development and sales or sell the Eagle business further on). Either way Autotesk has created so much uncertainty that Eagle is badly damaged.

This is exactly one of the points. I think Altium can start thanking Autodesk already!
We are an SME, and if we will not continue working with EAGLE (which looks extremely likely) we will most probably be looking a notch up (Altium) and not a notch down (KiCad). We may even financially support KiCad through the CERN donation scheme to make that better. If we are spending money anyway, why not make the word a bit better!
Yes: SMEs have values other than money. I would even spend a tiny bit more if the whole world could benefit from it.

I don't think necessarily that folks will leave Eagle......I think for the time being they will just skip an upgrade and see what develops over the next year or so. The economy is weak around the globe anyways so the chance for SME's etc to defer any upgrade may be worth doing. EaglePcb V6 and V7 still work fine and can still tackle anything V8 can do.

Correct. We will defer the decision, but Autodesk has already put their scoring in a trade off on a negative number. The thing is, they are currently displaying behaviour that pisses off people. And that effect lasts. once you make the decision to leave, that is not easily undone.

I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront.

In my case, I don't use the autorouter, so it was $1145. At $65/month it would take 1.5 years to break even with the old price and after that free to use for as long as I care to. After 4-5 years, thousands of dollars in savings vs renting. The old Cadsoft would even discount your upgrade!

For SMEs with more licenses, its tenfold in price increase at best. I am looking at between 10x and 15x

I don't think anybody is against Autodesk making an honest buck.  But I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel like they're now being (or will be) held hostage.  IMHO, you're trying to turn an emotional issue into a logical one by discounting the emotion.  ;)  I know, I know, engineers don't deal well with emotion. :box: :scared: :-DD

I don't think this is an emotional issue at all. Sure, people are upset, but their fundamental concerns are based on logical reasons why this is a big step backwards for users.

It definitely appears that this change is designed to turn the de-facto standard hobbyist/small business tool (which includes a lot of personal investment form the user base) into a cash cow. Sure Autodesk apologists and salesman are claiming that they are going to turn Eagle into a world class package, but the fact is they are asking people to pay them today in the hope that they will deliver on a vague, someday-maybe promise (which presumably new users will be able to get for the same price as those who subsidize this development with a current subscription).

Further, the user base doesn't want a world class package. They bought into Eagle because they wanted an affordable package that was more useable than something like KiCad.

To be clear, I really don't care. I never have been nor will I ever be an Eagle user (KiCad for me, thanks). I'm just here because I think this is an interesting discussion.

It's also going to be interesting watching this develop. I'm not entirely convinced that Eagle is going to survive this given how thoroughly they've misunderstood the current user base (which is the best thing Eagle has going for it). On the other hand, they might. They certainly have their users by the balls. I wonder how many actually follow through and do the enormous amount of work to get off Eagle.

Companies are ran by people, not robots. So yes, there is some sentiment and emotion. Really simple. I also do not buy from that company that is running those annoying ads on TV. Even if I would need their product. I would settle for slightly less to avoid this annoying company.
Autodesk has so far alienated the ?majority? of their userbase. A bit more open communication could have saved them a lot of users. We may have considered Autodesk if they did not outright lie about their intentions and at least informed their existing userbase about their plans. God forbid, they might even do a survey to assess the needs!

Regarding the argument that programmers need a steady income: I understand this argument. it makes sense. However, great people make great software, and great software is bought by people. also if it has another licensing model.
I can not help but feel sorry for the poor programmers, who now have to code a tool for an angry user base, and maybe are even implementing stuff they are not proud of because some company hot shot wants them to. I can not speak for the CadSoft team, but at the end of the day, you want to be proud of your product.
If the customers cannot sustain your business, something is wrong.
Thank you to any CadSoft people. If you read this, thank you for all your work over the past 29 years!

And lastly:
I don't think we will make people understand the aversion for cloud based, network connected, subscription based, whizzbang, marketing crap software. That is not anyones fault. Its a difference in opinion or policy. Some people can not understand why people want A or B. if people want A, you can try and convince them of B. but if at the end of the day they want or require A, just serve them A or take your loss. Fine.

Edit: clarified that cloud based internet connected stuff may be a hard no based on policy, not opninion
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 25, 2017, 01:35:06 pm
I agree. Waiting for a year or so is certainly the approach I personally intend to take. If Autodesk keeps developing and publishing relevant enhancements to Eagle, I might be willing to switch to a subscription model and help fund that development. But I have no rush to upgrade from version 7.x, so I will watch for a while.

Users observing and waiting don't create revenue for Autodesk. Maybe they have to see a huge drop in Eagle revenue first to get the message.

Following your speculation, they could tout 9.0 being the best Eagle version ever and double subscription fees for adding a few features. This is another big problem with subscriptions when you can't simply move to another service/software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on January 25, 2017, 02:01:07 pm
This is really bad news. I think the subscription model will also affect the education sector. I'm working at a university and so far we used Eagle for teaching EE students PCB design. They would also use it for their Bachelor and Master thesis, if required.
The old model made it easy for us to just tell them to download the free version and start working with it. When writing the thesis, they would often start with the free version and get a license key once the project had outgrown the free version. For this we have a pool of several licenses, which we updated every once in a while, when the new features made sense for us.

Now we need either to distribute the old free version (not sure whether this is legal, though I see nothing in the license that forbids it) or tell the students to get an Autodesk account. I'm not sure whether we are legally allowed to do so, since we would be forcing them to hand their personal data to a cooperation, just to complete a course. Since Autodesk is in the US and we are in the EU, this might be a big deal due to privacy concerns.

Additionally, since Eagle was the best viable option for an entry level PCB solution, it made sense to teach students how to use eagle. If companies are turning away from Eagle to more expensive packages, we can either follow, which would be costly, or move to the open source alternatives, i.e. KiCAD.

To make matters even worse, up to now, we were also using Eagle for our research projects. I doubt we will invest our hard earned project money in subscriptions that are running out once there is a gap between projects. Makes more sense to buy a perpetual license from the big players instead. We already have a few Altium seats for demanding PCBs, so this seems the way to go for us. Only downside is that we now have more incompatibilities between student and staff projects.

No matter how this episode ends, I don't feel very assured that teaching Eagle to students is a good idea in the foreseeable future. It's hard to switch for the next semester, so we might use the old version, however I don't think that this is a reasonable solution in the long run.

Well done Autodesk. By not trusting your users (i.e. requiring a login, no more perpetual licenses) you will ultimately lose young engineers, which up to now, were trained at no cost to you how to use your software.
I think both the big ECAD players and KiCAD will become more popular at universities. As far as KiCAD is concerned, this might be long overdue.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 25, 2017, 02:11:31 pm
Hi all,

I don't think necessarily that folks will leave Eagle......I think for the time being they will just skip an upgrade and see what develops over the next year or so. The economy is weak around the globe anyways so the chance for SME's etc to defer any upgrade may be worth doing. EaglePcb V6 and V7 still work fine and can still tackle anything V8 can do.
The issue is that this is exactly what Autodesk won't want to happen..............
IMO, if the subscription model is here to stay then Autodesk need to put some serious work into the software and step it up a few notches. Just think, not only is there KiCad, there's also CircuitStudio and CircuitMaker out there now also.
Problem is, the longer Autodesk take to mess around will make it all the harder for them. I wonder if direction is lacking within them already?

Just my opinion.

Ian.

I agree this is the most likely short-term outcome, but I don't think this position is going to last. At least in the hobbyists side of the equation, new people are going to enter the market (me for example) that now don't have the option to be grandfathered into the old license. These people will now consider alternatives much more closely than they had to in the past. As that population grows, the perception that "everyone uses Eagle" is going to fade. IMO, this perception is the most valuable thing that Eagle has going for it (again, from the hobbyists perspective).
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: latigid on on January 25, 2017, 02:17:03 pm
The problem they're facing is there is currently no reason to update, the "V8" release even looks quite buggy atm.

-- There's no reason for Pro licencees, as they already have a perpetual version of the same thing
-- There's no reason for "Maker" licencees, as they lose two routing layers for $100/year (+VAT)
-- There COULD BE a reason for those on freeware or basic commercial licences if they want a bit more area/permission to sell what they make. The area software cripple is much more flexible than fixed dimensions, but apart from time/library investments, I suspect these folks would look into KiCAD instead.

I'm struggling to imagine the thinking behind this. How does AUTODESK convince new signups that there's any merit in switching? A better idea would have been to properly implement the features requested since V5, to provide some trust that they're truly working on making it better.

Can't put lipstick on a pig, can't polish a turd etc. The codebase for EAGLE is super old now, and if the reason for lack of tangible improvements is that the structure is so weak that adding features makes the thing fall over, then why on earth didn't they just poach the design team and start from scratch? Trying to leverage the userbase? A forewarning might have been in the sheer number of Linux/GNU users and how they normally like their software models... also: we're talking about the maker/hacker community here, and how instrumental they've been in contributing bug reports, ULP scripts etc.
 
Someone else said something like, it's a bastard, but it's MY bastard! I know the quirks and limitations. But more importantly, I can get around many of them, e.g. limited pad shapes = add copper and shush the DRC. No slots = play with the Milling layer. No design blocks = import drawing (there was even a way before they added a File menu).

They need to do a helluva lot before I'll be convinced. It's just sad that my investment will not be going towards development and I need to cash in again for anything new. The trouble is, the newly promised features will break workflows of the oldtimers, and this is happening already. So what's the benefit?

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: plazma on January 25, 2017, 03:01:28 pm


This is really bad news. I think the subscription model will also affect the education sector. I'm working at a university and so far we used Eagle for teaching EE students PCB design. They would also use it for their Bachelor and Master thesis, if required.
The old model made it easy for us to just tell them to download the free version and start working with it. When writing the thesis, they would often start with the free version and get a license key once the project had outgrown the free version..........

Now the full version is free for students!

I wonder how hard it would have been for a SW company as big as Autodesk to write a decent program from scratch.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 25, 2017, 03:11:51 pm
I wonder how hard it would have been for a SW company as big as Autodesk to write a decent program from scratch.

Its not a matter of manpower and money, its a matter of understanding lay-out.
That could take autodesk quite long, as it is not easy to understand what the lay-out process is like if you do not have engineers that know.

This is why they have bought CadSoft. They buy the expertise, so they do not have to spend huge money to learn the hard way.
Even if they discontinue EAGLE, they will still have the people that made it. (Or not, if they are also pissed off)
Or possibly a well documented codebase (with quirks)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on January 25, 2017, 03:26:49 pm
Now the full version is free for students!
As I explained, free isn't good enough, as long as they want the personal data from students.
Sure that is Ok when a student wants to get the software for private use, but when students are required to use the software to complete an university course, things start to get difficult (at least where I live).
We legally cannot and ethically will not force them to register with Autodesk to get through a course. So the free version without registration and with more limitations was in fact superior for us, compared to the new student account they are offering.
Not sure whether they will change that, but this is an issue I expect a company to find out before they completely change the license model. And since they made this change without any official warning or announcement, there's little time for them to react.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 25, 2017, 04:00:27 pm
Now the full version is free for students!
As I explained, free isn't good enough, as long as they want the personal data from students.
Sure that is Ok when a student wants to get the software for private use, but when students are required to use the software to complete an university course, things start to get difficult (at least where I live).
We legally cannot and ethically will not force them to register with Autodesk to get through a course. So the free version without registration and with more limitations was in fact superior for us, compared to the new student account they are offering.
Not sure whether they will change that, but this is an issue I expect a company to find out before they completely change the license model. And since they made this change without any official warning or announcement, there's little time for them to react.

Really? Wow, German universities really have their stuff together!

In the US, I was forced to create an account to submit homework online with virtually every course I took. These invariably required a single use keycode that came with the (new) textbook. It was sad to see the universities so compliant with the publishers thinly veiled attempt to destroy the second hand textbook market.

Now that I think about it, the situation isn't that different form what Autodesk is trying to do here. The only difference is that Autodesk doesn't have Eagle users at their mercy quite as much as the universities/publishers do...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: pa3weg on January 25, 2017, 04:59:25 pm
In the US, I was forced to create an account to submit homework online with virtually every course I took. These invariably required a single use keycode that came with the (new) textbook. It was sad to see the universities so compliant with the publishers thinly veiled attempt to destroy the second hand textbook market.

Now that I think about it, the situation isn't that different form what Autodesk is trying to do here. The only difference is that Autodesk doesn't have Eagle users at their mercy quite as much as the universities/publishers do...
That sounds quite bad.
It's EU laws that tries to limit this.
A school can ask you to register, but if you do not agree with the terms, they can not discriminate you or anything.
Also, in my uni, a lot of classes used to have two schedules, depending on what book you were using. So basically telling you to solve problems 4 or 5 in one book OR 3 and 6 in another. That way, you could buy the older version without penalty.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Retep on January 25, 2017, 05:52:05 pm
Can't put lipstick on a pig, can't polish a turd etc.
Wrong on both counts:
(http://995642590.r.lightningbase-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/engagement-lipstick-4-pigs-hr-examiner-web.jpg)
Polishing a Turd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on January 25, 2017, 08:08:40 pm
Since I'm not a user of any other Autodesk products, I took a look at the companies history (apart from Autocad). This is a real eye opener: http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/ (http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 25, 2017, 09:28:38 pm
Since I'm not a user of any other Autodesk products, I took a look at the companies history (apart from Autocad). This is a real eye opener: http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/ (http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/)

Once you cut through the rambling, what you find is that Autodesk is essentially the stereotypical headless corporation. A big corp need not be straight out of Dilbert, but to be well run it requires actual leadership and an internal structure with responsibility (and consequences). Once the disease of Management gets in, it pushes out the leadership and replicates to fill in the void. Then, you eventually get a large corp where, on the inside, everyone points to everyone else as being the cause for things failing, and figuring out where things went wrong becomes a geometric nightmare. Once they hit this stage, they're unable to really innovate and produce something good/new. On comes the 'acquisition' phase. When you cease to innovate, but require new product to generate new revenues, you simply start buying other companies.

Analog Devices is a recent example that comes to mind.

Much of the recent announcements from Autodesk are in line with the above article, and fit the behavior of that kind of death-spiral. They can rely on LabSpokane to keep them going. The corpse is already starting to stink; I'll be going.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on January 25, 2017, 09:40:53 pm
Since I'm not a user of any other Autodesk products, I took a look at the companies history (apart from Autocad). This is a real eye opener: http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/ (http://www.stefandidak.com/2014/03/autodesk-the-metastasizing-cancer-of-the-3d-world/)

AutoCAD likes this business model.  They did the same thing in the 2D world.  They were in a competitive world for 2D CAD on PCs.  Didn't have much of a toehold in the corporate world where much larger and more expensive packages ruled.  They beat the small house/personal CAD competition by buying them.  Strung users of competing products along for a couple years and then dropping the product.

The ECAD world is somewhat different since they are not already a player.  But I would guess that any user of a smaller ECAD product can expect to see their product bought by AutoCAD over the next few years and then discarded.  Looks like Ki CAD, the big guys or fall in love with AutoCAD are the choices.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: DimitriP on January 25, 2017, 10:28:59 pm
Quote
In the US, I was forced to create an account to submit homework online

Yeah, well...this alone deserves it's own thread.

It is disgusting, wrong, innapropriate, but hey "everyone is doing it, so it must be ok".


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: AutomationGuy on January 25, 2017, 10:34:43 pm

I was using KiCad since 2003. Six month ago I wanted to switch to Eagle becorse of the stable maintenance and software stability.
Now KiCad has a nice stable new release from CERN and Eagle has subscription.

My decision was false and I need to find a new solution to protect my small busines from risks Autodesk might add.
I can neither invest time nor money in Eagle at the moment.

Right now my feeling is open software is the most reliable solution for busines.

I did not find real differences in the functionality of KiCAD and Eagle. The manual router of KiCAD might be a little advanced over Eagle and Eagle is a bit more stable in general. If you use many different software packages you will not find differences in usability of Eagle and KiCAD. The differential pair routing of Eagle is not usable for me. The meander function of Eagle is verry nice. KiCAD has a 3D board viewer and a Gerber viewer as well.

May be I will give circuit studio a try.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 26, 2017, 11:13:40 am
Right now my feeling is open software is the most reliable solution for busines.

Just because it is open doesn't necessarily mean it will always be available. Unless of course you can do all the development yourself. But at least the copy you use now you can always continue to use. But only if you also keep the rest of your machine as well. Someone who archived a design in 2000 done on W98 will be UpSC is they also need W98 to use the software they used back then.

So for long term archiving and backward compatibility you  might need to keep an old PC or a VM. And a VM has its own requirements so it could get awfully recursive.

VMs should be usable on any future x86 platform, as most workstation class VM software creates a flat hard disk image file for each VM. That file is the equivalent of taking a real, physical hard disk and using 'dd' to image it to a file. So, I should be able to move it between VMWare, Parallels, Virtual PC, Bochs, Qemu, etc. at will (and in fact, for the most part, you can).

If tomorrow ARM suddenly took over the PC market and Intel stopped making the x86, there's always Qemu (and I'm sure VMWare would have a solution, as would Microsoft and likely Apple).

So, as long as you have a VM or hard drive image of the OS, software and files you need, they should be useable 10 years from now.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 26, 2017, 11:53:21 am
Just because it is open doesn't necessarily mean it will always be available.
But it has a far higher chance than anything closed, as much more power is in the hands of the users.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 26, 2017, 12:33:05 pm
Just thinking...

Rumours say that Cadsoft has been sold for 30 million.
If 30,000 SME's donate $1000.= they can buy it and open-source it.
They can use it forever and modify it if they want.

Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 26, 2017, 01:12:00 pm
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 26, 2017, 01:58:24 pm
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 26, 2017, 02:14:46 pm
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.

Or sunset it... they've been known to do that too... Autodesk strikes me as having a monopolistic business model, and now they're going after the ecad market. I doubt they'll be willing to part with whatever IP they got in this sale.

Even if they do put it up for sale, would it be worth it? We already have KiCad that is 100% free, and I don't think the feature difference between the two adds up to $30MM. You could probably throw that money at developers instead and end up with KiCad far surpassing what Eagle offers.

Also, CadSoft is a business with employees. What happens to them if you try to open source the whole thing?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 26, 2017, 02:46:30 pm
Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

What do you think?

It isn't for sale. I bought a bag of rice in the supermarket for $10, that doesn't mean I have to sell it to you for $10 just because you want it.

Not yet.

But it's not unlikely that, after this debacle,  Autodesk/Cadsoft will see a drop of revenue.
If this goes on for too long and revenue will stay below the threshold which makes it interesting for them,
they will either change the license or sell it.

Or sunset it... they've been known to do that too... Autodesk strikes me as having a monopolistic business model, and now they're going after the ecad market. I doubt they'll be willing to part with whatever IP they got in this sale.

Even if they do put it up for sale, would it be worth it? We already have KiCad that is 100% free, and I don't think the feature difference between the two adds up to $30MM. You could probably throw that money at developers instead and end up with KiCad far surpassing what Eagle offers.

Yes, it would be worth for companies to pay a one time fee of 1000,= to avoid the need to learn another package and create new libraries.
In addition, they could profit from free future modifications done either by the community or by themselves.
Neither they have to pay anymore for new licenses in case they start to hire more engineers.

Also, CadSoft is a business with employees. What happens to them if you try to open source the whole thing?

They will be without a job. But that was the risk they took when they (or the owner) decided to sell their private company to farnell.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 26, 2017, 04:37:16 pm
Rumours say that Cadsoft has been sold for 30 million.
If 30,000 SME's donate $1000.= they can buy it and open-source it.
They can use it forever and modify it if they want.

Why not create a kickstarter project to liberate Eagle?

Tandy has already pointed out that Eagle is not for sale. Yes, this might change in the future, but certainly not half a year after Autodesk bought it. Don't overestimate the impact a handful of annoyed users moaning to each other on a forum will have on Autodesk's management...  ;)

Also, the 30.000 SMEs which you assumed for the buyout seem like a tall order. Here's a report dating 7 years back, when CadSoft was sold to Farnell. (Sorry, in German.) They stated that they had sold 40.000 licenses at that time, which probably includes the Hobbyist licenses and all dormant licenses sold a long time ago. Which would mean that they had much less than 40.000 active, commercial users back then -- let's be generous and guess 20.000.

http://www.elektroniknet.de/halbleiter/cadsoft-wie-es-weitergehen-soll-23896.html (http://www.elektroniknet.de/halbleiter/cadsoft-wie-es-weitergehen-soll-23896.html)

If we assume that the number of new users in the years since has roughly balanced the number of users abandoning Eagle, they are still hovering around that number of active commercial users. I don't see that limited group coming up with the money to buy out Eagle anytime soon...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on January 26, 2017, 05:02:54 pm
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 26, 2017, 05:06:52 pm
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 26, 2017, 06:43:53 pm
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.

I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect CAD tool which no one will bitch about for the workflow. I myself am looking at having to learn a new workflow and dealing with libraries which are useless going forward. But I do have a goal of producing boards down the road, so I can complete projects. I have a finite budget. The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 26, 2017, 07:21:51 pm
The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.

Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

If servers go down, Autodesk has to fix it. If there's a bug in EAGLE that is affecting your work, Autodesk has to fix it. If you have a complaint or issue, Autodesk has to listen to it and do it's best to correct it. If you have a suggestions, Autodesk has to listen and determine if it's worthwhile if it is then Autodesk has to implement it(Autodesk has idea boards, if a given idea gets enough votes it has to be implemented. We don't have them yet because we are new). That's why you pay for the software if you choose to use it, because there is someone you can contact and have an expectation of service and attention.

That's why I'm here to answer questions and do my best to help. Now let's repeat the above scenario with Kicad.

If servers go down, hope someone saved the last release and can get it to you, or try to reach one of the developers, or hope that the internet archive backed it up, etc. If there is a bug in KiCAD that is affecting your work, hope a developer gets to it quickly or get your hands dirty or hire someone or just deal with it as best you can. If you have a complaint or issue, post to a forum and hope someone is nice enough to listen or that perhaps a developer will be able to address your issue when he has time. The current project lead for the KiCAD project Wayne Stombaugh works part time on KiCAD and he's the project lead(I'm might be mistaken but I believe that is his title). If you have suggestions, post it to a forum and hope that a developer likes it and will take the time to implement it.

The above has nothing to do with the capabilities of the tools, just the realities of how the two projects are run. Everything has it's pros and it's cons, there is no silver bullet or free lunch. As a business owner it's your responsibility to make decisions about what tool is best for your business however it's important to be informed and to take all of the factors into account. By saying that Autodesk has no responsibility I think you neglected the above points and felt compelled to bring them to your attention.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on January 26, 2017, 07:42:35 pm
Even if you could buy Eagle, what is the point? With $30 Million to spend think what could be done with KiCad. That's enough to pay a whole team of fulltime developers for years.

Many don't like the workflow in Kicad. Many don't want to get used to a new package. Many don't want to rewrite their libraries.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, Kicad doesn't have the powerfull commandline like Eagle has. And what about all the ulp's written for Eagle, they don't run in Kicad.

So add it? Consider a team of 20 full time software developers over a period of say 5 years, what feature available in Eagle could not be added to KiCad over that time? How many tools could be developed to convert libraries and designs from one to the other? I don't think raising $30M is realistic but if it were, I can think of better uses for it than buying Eagle.

Yes the workflow of KiCad is a bit crap. So is the workflow of Eagle, and every other EDA. I tried a bunch of them and they all suck, they're all buggy, they all have quirks and bone-headed design decisions. We just get used to whatever one we decide to use and stop noticing all the issues. I've used Eagle enough to say that there's nothing really special about it, it's a capable product that has achieved success in the hobbyist, pro-sumer and small business field due to the fact that it is or was an order of magnitude cheaper than the serious CAD packages. It's certainly not as powerful as Altium or the other big boys but those are far from affordable unless your employer pays for them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on January 26, 2017, 08:44:31 pm
Sorry,  :rant:

For me, EAGLE 8.0 (released by Autodesk or someone else, it's still Version 8.0) has no significant improvements over 7.7, and it is still missing some key features, and I should imagine that there will be bugs to come with these new features, KiCAD has had several iterations to improve their bugs of the likes of the P+ S router, and they have improved it, version 7 had updates to the library, and something updated with the autorouter apparently (I don't use it), and the changes to the library system were a slight improvement, not saying other CAD packages are perfect by a long shot, I adapted to the way EAGLE worked prior to V7, even back on V5 it was perfectly usable, the thing that gets me, regardless of upgrade discount etc, is why would you want to pay as much in 2 or 3 years for software that you used to pay for once and use forever, and it is the same software, regardless of a few tweaks and features, I think Cadsoft used to charge a small fee for major upgrades, Autodesk are trying to force the hand of people who spent years using the older versions and maintaining their own templates and libraries for the tool.  I have a feeling that the file format will change at some point stopping backwards compatibility with V7 and before to try and forcefully make people upgrade to the new version.

If you want a subscription model, then fine, but at least allow the poor folk who already own their perpetual licenses have an upgrade path, charge for a perpetual license with 1 years support, or offer a subscription for app and support, and perhaps you can even have a separate subscription for support, but charge a nominal fee for a major version upgrade.

It's not rocket science, buy and large Autodesk are just making people feel like they have been shafted royally!
Remove that silly need to "re-authenticate" after 14 days, if the subscription is yearly, once a year should be plenty!  If it's perpetual, never.

I guess time will tell if Autodesk are worth their salt if they actually listen to what the users of the product want rather than try and force what clearly a very small percentage are happy to accept!
 :rant: Over.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 26, 2017, 08:49:02 pm
The problem I'm trying to solve is resolving the path going from design, to PCB-in-hand in a controllable way, within my means. Rentware takes that control away and delegates it to someone else who carries no responsibility. Therefore if KiCad solves the problem, even if it's clunky, then that's the route to go.

Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

If servers go down, Autodesk has to fix it. If there's a bug in EAGLE that is affecting your work, Autodesk has to fix it. If you have a complaint or issue, Autodesk has to listen to it and do it's best to correct it. If you have a suggestions, Autodesk has to listen and determine if it's worthwhile if it is then Autodesk has to implement it(Autodesk has idea boards, if a given idea gets enough votes it has to be implemented. We don't have them yet because we are new). That's why you pay for the software if you choose to use it, because there is someone you can contact and have an expectation of service and attention.

[...]

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

I'm not trying to pick a fight either, but the burden of proof is on you, not us. I can't help thinking: "go tell that to Softimage users". The fact is that there is absolutely nothing that guarantees Autodesk is going to follow through on any of the promises you just made just like there wasn't anything that guaranteed Autodesk's promise that Eagle wasn't going to go to a subscription model or that the future was "bright" for Softimage.

In short: your words aren't good enough. Unless Autodesk is willing to commit to a legally binding, long term service contract, there actually isn't anything that says you "have to fix it". You might fix it, sure, but you are only going to do that if it benefits you. We don't actually enter the equation.

Your points about KiCad support aren't wrong, but the issue is more about completely losing access to the tool. If KiCad's servers go down, the software I have on my personal machine continues to function; the installer that I backed up to my file server can still get me up and running on a new machine. With KiCad, I have the power to ensure my tool continues to function. That is what we are looking for, and that is exactly what your licensing scheme denies us.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 26, 2017, 08:53:18 pm
Hi XFDDesign,

How does Autodesk not have any responsibility? It's a sincere question, not picking a fight.

Responsibility means to have a consequence for a chosen act. Suppose I were to go with the subscription system and the servers go down for a long period of time. It is highly doubtful that there will be a monetary cost to Autodesk which compensates a company for down time. Or, suppose Autodesk axes Eagle and it just goes EOL. There are no mechanisms which prevent them from repeating the Softimage event, which leaves the customers high and dry. No form of compensation to be had because that would be suicidal for any business to be bound to a customer by product. If the product was making the business tank, there is no 'win' situation. That kind of awful dependence is toxic to a business' health, which is why it's just as toxic to any customer. The customer is being made to be dependent on Autodesk, but there is no longer a consequence for them producing a crap product. "Don't like it? Better migrate to some other package." No accountability at all in the subscription model. This isn't producing the best product possible, that I want to keep buying. It is making a product that I have to keep buying. I've had my fill of that with the ACA. Eagle's biggest change to version 7 was new icons. That didn't help me, so I stopped upgrading at v 6.6. If they did something additionally beneficial in version 8 (supposing it stayed cadsoft), I could then pay for an upgrade. If version 8 had some improvements, but it became as stable as Altium, they bear responsibility to themselves by having the consequence if my not paying for it. A healthy risk-reward system. The new model is only a reward system. Autodesk spits out version 8 and it has 1 bug. 9 comes out and it has 2. 10 and it's 4, and so on. Each version presents the dilemma: Suck it up, or move. The longer you stay hooked, and the worse the package gets, the more you've spent into a product that you're constantly evaluating whether or not you should abandon it. The essence of the matter is, really, Autodesk doesn't have to do anything. Any choice they do which might impact me, they can do without concern. My option is to go to another package, or keep paying. Now it's the same kind of issue a junkie has: they can either keep going with the addiction, or they try to come clean and deal with the withdrawals. The example may be dramatic, but it is to the point.

When it's a standalone product, "this is what I have." If there is a bug, "this is what I have." If the company who sold the product wants to maintain a customer base, they fix those bugs and the mutual relationship continues. But further, when it's a standalone product and the supplier goes out of business entirely or just terminates the product line completely, "this is what I have." I still have it. It is a clear exchange and trade.


I'm not trying to pick a fight either, but the burden of proof is on you, not us. I can't help thinking: "go tell that to Softimage users". The fact is that there is absolutely nothing that guarantees Autodesk is going to follow through on any of the promises you just made just like there wasn't anything that guaranteed Autodesk's promise that Eagle wasn't going to go to a subscription model or that the future was "bright" for Softimage.

In short: your words aren't good enough. Unless Autodesk is willing to commit to a legally binding, long term service contract, there actually isn't anything that says you "have to fix it". You might fix it, sure, but you are only going to do that if it benefits you. We don't actually enter the equation.

Your points about KiCad support aren't wrong, but the issue is more about completely losing access to the tool. If KiCad's servers go down, the software I have on my personal machine continues to function; the installer that I backed up to my file server can still get me up and running on a new machine. With KiCad, I have the power to ensure my tool continues to function. That is what we are looking for, and that is exactly what your licensing scheme denies us.

If that article on softimage is anything to go on, the guy is being put into a shitty situation to be chewed up and eventually spat out. I don't think there is a way for him to win here.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on January 26, 2017, 10:59:01 pm

If that article on softimage is anything to go on, the guy is being put into a shitty situation to be chewed up and eventually spat out. I don't think there is a way for him to win here.

Hi XFDDesign,

In that article, the guy mentions that he changed industries years ago. In other words, he has no skin in the game which is a very comfortable position for a person to rant from. It also means that he already won, so I don't think we need to worry about him.

With that said, you are correct the burden of proof lies with Autodesk. At this point I think the passage of time will be the only way to clear doubts. Some on this forum have already mentioned that they will be holding on their previous versions of EAGLE to see what Autodesk does, I respect that position and hopefully as the months go by there will be enough "proof" to settle some of these fears.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk
Thanks for the feedback
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on January 27, 2017, 12:24:49 am
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 27, 2017, 12:27:04 am

In that article, the guy mentions that he changed industries years ago. In other words, he has no skin in the game which is a very comfortable position for a person to rant from. It also means that he already won, so I don't think we need to worry about him.

I was mostly referring to the people Autodesk put in your role. They use your credibility up, and then push you out the door.  :-\
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on January 27, 2017, 01:19:07 am
The only question is whether a .gif of Baghdad Bob or Sean Spicer would be more effective at conveying the analogy.  :-\
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 27, 2017, 03:20:15 am
"Autodesk has a responsibility to do these normal software support things"

Sure, that's the way things work. While things are going right.

We're talking about what happens when things go wrong. We're engineers, some people think we're pessimistic for poking holes in something before accepting it as a sound solution, but that's what we do by definition.

The internet-tethered license is huge hole. It's like designing a PCB with a non-keyed power connector and no polarity protection. You could promise yourself that you'll be careful, you'll always plug it in the right way, but eventually it's going to release the magic smoke.

You can't build up trust over time with something like that. We all know that it's just a matter of time before Autodesk drops Eagle and shuts down the servers. We're only haggling over how long that is.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on January 27, 2017, 04:53:35 am
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

I would sign up in a second.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bitwelder on January 27, 2017, 06:04:56 am
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...
While reading this thread I was just thinking whether any Eagle CAD competitor has already come up with some special offer or PR campaign.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on January 27, 2017, 10:12:07 am
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

It might be, but only for taking away Windows based users. With EAGLE being a lot more in the maker/hacker space I suspect a reasonable proportion of those users will be on Linux. For me personally (for professional work) it's Mac for my main design work and Linux for the PC on my lab bench so Altium wouldn't work for me. I suspect even with a drastic price cut Altium would still be way out of the price range of most EAGLE users though.

I think as many have already said, the main beneficiary of the fallout will be KiCAD and it'll likely get a lot of additional funds donated by disgruntled EAGLE users taking their subscription money and donating to KiCAD in protest. Whilst I will stick with EAGLE as I like it and have a lot of time invested in it, and I do believe there will be more coming from Autodesk to help solve these issues, I can't really fault people for taking this stance and having a very capable alternative to EAGLE which is a real competitor to EAGLE (Cadence/Altium/Mentor are in a league of their own in terms of features) could be good for EAGLE as it will force Autodesk to push ahead of KiCAD in terms of functionality or bleed users.

Just my 2p worth....

Rachael
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on January 27, 2017, 01:24:57 pm
The internet-tethered license is huge hole. It's like designing a PCB with a non-keyed power connector and no polarity protection. You could promise yourself that you'll be careful, you'll always plug it in the right way, but eventually it's going to release the magic smoke.

You can't build up trust over time with something like that. We all know that it's just a matter of time before Autodesk drops Eagle and shuts down the servers. We're only haggling over how long that is.

^ this. I can't see Eagle has a good future at Autodesk. If it turns out not to be the cash machine Autodesk hoped for, who knows what will happen...

I remember when Novell paid a good price for Unix. It seemed like a brilliant move to build a company with a wide base that could compete in OS and applications with Microsoft and a lot of fine words were spoken about future profits. In reality, Novell had no idea what to do with Unix (I know, I was there), and the whole thing fell apart.

You can find thousands of such stories of course, but the fact Autodesk did it recently with Softimage should ring some alarm bells. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eagle being sold on again, or dropped in favor of some other package Autodesk buys in.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on January 27, 2017, 01:37:09 pm
http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview (http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview)

Future of Eagle?


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 27, 2017, 02:21:25 pm
http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview (http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview)
Future of Eagle?

SoftImage has been mentioned before as a precedent, but I could not find a clear statement how Autodesk actually handled this: Did they "just" stop developing it further, while you can continue to use your existing version of the software indefinitely? Or is Softimage also licensed via a subscription model, and once the subscription ends you can't use it anymore?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on January 27, 2017, 04:47:28 pm
http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview (http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview)
Future of Eagle?

SoftImage has been mentioned before as a precedent, but I could not find a clear statement how Autodesk actually handled this: Did they "just" stop developing it further, while you can continue to use your existing version of the software indefinitely? Or is Softimage also licensed via a subscription model, and once the subscription ends you can't use it anymore?

My take from that page is that you can subscribe to 3DS Max of Maya and then they let you continue to use the last version of Softimage, but if you stop subscribing you lose access.

It's a perfect example of why I will never rent software. No way, no how, just no.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Nauris on January 27, 2017, 09:52:43 pm
Autodesk annual report FY2016 and Q3FY17 results are available from Autodesk website
Must-to-read for anybody wishing to enter long-term relationship with Autodesk.

Key points:

Autodesk annual revenue is about 2500 million USD

This transition to subscription-only and end of sales of all perpetual licences is clearly stated as Autodesk's new strategy.
So all this is coming from top management.

Autodesk's profitability has been in steady decline for five years. FY2016 was first year since 1984 Autodesk did not turn profit, altought income from operations was still barely positive.
Q3FY17 cumulative operative loss was 330 million USD.

Revenues are going down (10%) and expenses are not.

Autodesk still has plenty of cash.

In my opinion there is turbulent times ahead.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 27, 2017, 10:34:15 pm
http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview (http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview)
Future of Eagle?

SoftImage has been mentioned before as a precedent, but I could not find a clear statement how Autodesk actually handled this: Did they "just" stop developing it further, while you can continue to use your existing version of the software indefinitely? Or is Softimage also licensed via a subscription model, and once the subscription ends you can't use it anymore?

To be absolutely fair to Autodesk, Maya used to be a major competitor to 3DS Max until they bought it. Many of the same concerns were voiced at the time but it's still going now 11 years on.

In the case of Softimage, they already had 3DS Max and Maya and so keeping a third tool around that overlaps two you already have doesn't really make much sense. In the case of Eagle, they have no prior offering in the field so I think that pointing at Softimage and saying "this will happen to eagle" is very misleading.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on January 27, 2017, 11:03:26 pm
I think it will happen to Eagle for different reasons. They do not themselves have a competing project, but I don't believe they will get enough users onboard with the subscription for it to remain profitable. As far as I know, the vast bulk of Eagle users are precisely the sort of people who are going to snub their nose at the idea of renting software. Eagle is not a product in a class of its own the way some of the other productivity tools Autodesk offers are and given their inexperience in the EDA field I'm not remotely confident that they can come up with compelling new features to compete with the high end subscription products out there.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 27, 2017, 11:22:15 pm
I can imagine some Autodesk product manager seeing all this backlash and dismissing us...we're not product managers, we're not CEOs, we don't have experience running a business. What could we possibly know?

Sure, that applies to some of us...though not all. More importantly, many of us have been customers and dealt with many products and many companies. We've seen entire product life cycles from birth to death. We've seen entire companies come and go. We've seen companies lay off thousands of people while giving their CEOs a bonus. We've seen them buy other companies and then cancel the product and end all cloud services within months. Always preceded by strong, confident language about the long term support they'll be providing, the bright future. Always followed by deepest regrets, unpredictable circumstances, market shifts, token conciliatory gestures, and more layoffs.

Owning a perpetual license never meant that the software would work for eternity. But it meant we would have time to find another solution on our own schedule, with plenty of advance warning.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on January 27, 2017, 11:25:30 pm
To be fair the CADSoft developers that Autodesk have inherited DO have some idea about how an EDA works. There are two ways it can go really..

1. The developers have lots of ideas that they can now work on that perhaps they were not able to under the previous ownership.

2. The AutoDesk management fail to understand this specialist market and make the developers do what they think will be best for revenue. Developers get fed up and move on and AutoDesk hire new yes men to replace them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on January 27, 2017, 11:48:59 pm
Honestly the subscription feels like squeezing blood from a stone here. And to me, it smacks of distrust in their new purchase. They ask for a subscription right after buying the software and hardly doing anything to it yet. The reasoning is that "we need to pay our developers to do all the great things we're going to do!"

Ok, yeah, developers need to be paid. And paid developers can do some amazing things, stuff that Eagle really needs. Realistically...Eagle has the potential to be a really good product, one that even meshes well with Autodesk's other products.

So whatever happened to investing in a product? Why does Eagle have to live paycheck-to-paycheck, depending on subscriptions trickling in to clothe and feed developers? Autodesk easily has enough cash to pay 20 developers to work on Eagle full-time for two years, bringing it up to true professional standards, something nobody could resist because it's so good. But Autodesk needs it to start pulling in monthly fees right away? Eagle has to prove itself as a cash cow immediately, there is no grace period from Autodesk to build it into something amazing first. They don't want to put more money into it, they want to start pulling money out right now.

Getting the money immediately turned out to be more important than the development and improvement of the product. They spent most of their development time the past few months integrating the licensing code. We don't have any reason to believe this prioritization won't continue into the future.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on January 28, 2017, 01:26:41 am
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

It might be, but only for taking away Windows based users. With EAGLE being a lot more in the maker/hacker space I suspect a reasonable proportion of those users will be on Linux. For me personally (for professional work) it's Mac for my main design work and Linux for the PC on my lab bench so Altium wouldn't work for me. I suspect even with a drastic price cut Altium would still be way out of the price range of most EAGLE users though.

I think as many have already said, the main beneficiary of the fallout will be KiCAD and it'll likely get a lot of additional funds donated by disgruntled EAGLE users taking their subscription money and donating to KiCAD in protest. Whilst I will stick with EAGLE as I like it and have a lot of time invested in it, and I do believe there will be more coming from Autodesk to help solve these issues, I can't really fault people for taking this stance and having a very capable alternative to EAGLE which is a real competitor to EAGLE (Cadence/Altium/Mentor are in a league of their own in terms of features) could be good for EAGLE as it will force Autodesk to push ahead of KiCAD in terms of functionality or bleed users.

Just my 2p worth....

Rachael

You can run Altium in VMware Fusion or Parallels just fine on a Mac. Even OpenGL/DirectX features work perfectly fine! I know someone who runs Altium this way and produces very complex 10+ layer boards without issue. I run DipTrace in a Windows 7 VM just fine (because the WINE version blows.)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on January 28, 2017, 07:36:11 am
They ask for a subscription right after buying the software and hardly doing anything to it yet. [...]

So whatever happened to investing in a product? Why does Eagle have to live paycheck-to-paycheck, depending on subscriptions trickling in to clothe and feed developers? Autodesk easily has enough cash to pay 20 developers to work on Eagle full-time for two years, bringing it up to true professional standards, something nobody could resist because it's so good. But Autodesk needs it to start pulling in monthly fees right away? [...]

Getting the money immediately turned out to be more important than the development and improvement of the product. They spent most of their development time the past few months integrating the licensing code. We don't have any reason to believe this prioritization won't continue into the future.

I agree, and believe that this approach will cost Autodesk a lot of money long-term.

They should have impressed the customer base with some really major improvements first . A push-and-shove router would have done that for me. Or maybe a proper tool to organize and edit component libraries (where I can still remember the "workflow" the next time I use it  ;)). The actual V8 features do not qualify as "impressive" for me...

After they have shown their committment to the product in that way, they might have a chance to convince a significant part of their customer base to move to a subscription model. It would still require a major leap of faith from the customers, because they have to trust Autodesk to keep investing and developing in the long run.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on January 28, 2017, 02:36:22 pm
To be fair the CADSoft developers that Autodesk have inherited DO have some idea about how an EDA works. There are two ways it can go really..

1. The developers have lots of ideas that they can now work on that perhaps they were not able to under the previous ownership.

2. The AutoDesk management fail to understand this specialist market and make the developers do what they think will be best for revenue. Developers get fed up and move on and AutoDesk hire new yes men to replace them.

I think CadSoft was a small outfit based in Germany. I wonder how many of the employees who haven't been fired or already quit are willing to continue working for Autodesk? Employee's reviews are not exactly rosy ... https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/CADsoft-Reviews-E722114.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/CADsoft-Reviews-E722114.htm) I'm inclined to think option 2) is more likely.

ETA: the company on Glassdoor is a different and unrelated Cadsoft. Apologies for error.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 28, 2017, 03:13:45 pm
The way Autodesk handles Eagle clearly suggests that they see the MRR as the most important point, not happy customers. As a software company you should try finding the balance between profit and customer satisfaction for a long term success. If you dominate a market you can get away with some abuse of customers without any immediate backlash resulting in less revenue, but on the long term the market will change accordingly. In this case KiCad might profit by donations (money or paid software developers) and overtake Eagle. KiCad has potential and does some things much better than Eagle already. Eagle is far behind other EDA packages regarding features and price/performance ratio. I've got an old licence for BAE light (IIRC around EUR 100). That EDA package had features ten years ago which are still lacking in Eagle. It's like Autodesk would sell a subscription for Win XP for much more than the original price while adding a very few drivers for new hardware.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on January 28, 2017, 04:09:53 pm
To be fair the CADSoft developers that Autodesk have inherited DO have some idea about how an EDA works. There are two ways it can go really..

1. The developers have lots of ideas that they can now work on that perhaps they were not able to under the previous ownership.

2. The AutoDesk management fail to understand this specialist market and make the developers do what they think will be best for revenue. Developers get fed up and move on and AutoDesk hire new yes men to replace them.

I think CadSoft was a small outfit based in Germany. I wonder how many of the employees who haven't been fired or already quit are willing to continue working for Autodesk? Employee's reviews are not exactly rosy ... https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/CADsoft-Reviews-E722114.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/CADsoft-Reviews-E722114.htm) I'm inclined to think option 2) is more likely.

That appears to be a completely different company called Cadsoft Consulting who are based in Arizona. They are unrelated to CADSoft/Autodesk the owners of EAGLE.

P.S. I can't take credit for spotting this, somebody on another forum where this link was also posted pointed this out over there.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 28, 2017, 05:26:02 pm

To be absolutely fair to Autodesk, Maya used to be a major competitor to 3DS Max until they bought it. Many of the same concerns were voiced at the time but it's still going now 11 years on.


Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.

No, it's not. That's the point I was trying to make to all the people who are pointing at Softimage as a guarantee of doom.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on January 28, 2017, 05:55:39 pm

To be absolutely fair to Autodesk, Maya used to be a major competitor to 3DS Max until they bought it. Many of the same concerns were voiced at the time but it's still going now 11 years on.


Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.

No, it's not. That's the point I was trying to make to all the people who are pointing at Softimage as a guarantee of doom.

I don't think anyone is pointing to it as a guarantee of doom. We're pointing to it as proof that Autodesk is willing to throw its users under the buss, with no warning and even after promising otherwise, if it suits their purposes. This very real risk is enough to make people think twice about investing their time in the Eagle ecosystem (in addition to Autodesk's money grubbing license policies).
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on January 29, 2017, 11:45:20 am
That appears to be a completely different company called Cadsoft Consulting who are based in Arizona. They are unrelated to CADSoft/Autodesk the owners of EAGLE.

Ooops! Apologies for some bad googling there.

Autodesk (if it is the right one) has slightly more positive reviews https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Autodesk-Reviews-E1155.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Autodesk-Reviews-E1155.htm)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on January 29, 2017, 12:18:33 pm

To be absolutely fair to Autodesk, Maya used to be a major competitor to 3DS Max until they bought it. Many of the same concerns were voiced at the time but it's still going now 11 years on.


Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.

No, it's not. That's the point I was trying to make to all the people who are pointing at Softimage as a guarantee of doom.

That's like having a dog which savages your kid, but keeping the dog because it might not do it again. We're all Bayesians here.

Of course, all companies have a financial duty to their shareholders, not their customers, so will always make decisions in the financial interest of the company. In that respect, Autodesk is no different. There are other reasons why a company could be forced to withdraw a service outside of their control.

Any company that has a subscription only model for their software presents a business risk to their customers. Subscription models work for some services, if they reduce operating costs. In this case, the cost is higher for greater risk.

It's not a personal thing, I don't have any antipathy towards Autodesk, it's just sensible business not to buy into a subscription model for specialised software like Eagle. As for the hobby/home user side, they are really quite sensitive to price. If the cost was $1 a month, people wouldn't mind nearly as much.

There is a parallel here with compiler IDEs. Traditionally these have been expensive tools, but the availability of good quality free tools is killing the business. Most silicon vendors have a free IDE based on open source editor and compiler (e.g. Eclipse, GCC). Faced with fewer customers, the standalone tool vendors are forced to put up prices, which makes them even less attractive.

I see the same course for Eagle. It so easily replaceable by free tools such as KiCad, it is facing a terminal decline. Autodesk could perhaps give it a lease of life by making it free except for high end versions, and focus efforts on high-revenue customers. But Autodesk will certainly lose customers to freeware with their current approach.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on January 29, 2017, 01:20:01 pm
I see the same course for Eagle. It so easily replaceable by free tools such as KiCad, it is facing a terminal decline. Autodesk could perhaps give it a lease of life by making it free except for high end versions, and focus efforts on high-revenue customers. But Autodesk will certainly lose customers to freeware with their current approach.

They have already started to lose customers. And the other customers will wait how things develop before deciding to "upgrade" to the subscription model or to move to another EDA package, while using the time to look into alternatives. My guess is that Eagle's revenue for this year will be nearly zero. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Autodesk would drop Eagle in about a year.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 29, 2017, 01:31:38 pm
of course, all companies have a financial duty to their shareholders, not their customers, so will always make decisions in the financial interest of the company.
Short term : investor  satisfaction
Long term: customer satisfaction
Why we face the end of the big company capitalist wot: the CEO only is appointed for a few years and that is his focus scope, eg investor and shareholder satisfaction.
Smaller family businesses have a scope of tens of years and focus on customer and employee satisfaction, overall do the family businesses return a stead profit each and every year some years less but they can survive on their cashfund they built in the good years while big companies sometimes have double digit profits then years of loss.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on January 29, 2017, 05:16:12 pm
You can not usually get shareholder satisfaction without customer satisfaction - apart from in the very short term.

The best guys who analyse share prices - gets on the ground - and looks in the shops/outlets and talks to customers and staff.

And for subscription services like Adobe - it seems like Adobe is desperate - so they offer big clients HUGE discounts to where it was cheaper than it used to be when upgrading every few years. But still then many of my clients have not moved (I run a graphics outsourcing company) to Adobe Cloud based products. In the old days my typical customers (magazines) used to be the bread and butter. Now I think they are only the bread for Adobe while the small business are the butter and now cheese and cake.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on January 30, 2017, 03:29:32 pm
A funny thing happened recently, which is in line with this whole subscription mess too.

I've been learning how to play the Piano with an online program (there are about 3 major ones). Initially the product worked well, and I got committed to a 1 year pre-paid contract.

Three months in, they did an update which broke the program (something introduced obscene amounts of latency). There is no 'archive' to go backwards to. Old versions get forced to upgrade in order to use the service. Which means I can't just roll back to something which was known to work (had an older copy of the program on my laptop). I've paid for something that I can literally not operate, until they figure out what they broke and fix it. This is not a 'server down' issue. It isn't a hardware compatibility issue. It's a forced update issue that is advertised as a 'feature' for being on the subscription service. The support system's response: Uninstall it and then reinstall it.

Want to guess whether it fixed the problem or not?

Once I finish my current project I'm working on in Eagle, I'll switch to KiCad and donate $500 to them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on January 31, 2017, 12:13:15 am
I'm going to disagree with you on this one. 

As a *regular* user (and I'm talking nearly daily here even though I don't do PCB layout for a living per-se), there is a *huge* amount of usability improvements that Eagle can most definitely use which would improve the experience in it for both new *and* existing users. 

So ... ongoing development of PCB software is something that *is* needed.  Take the most obvious example ... Auto-routers - there is not a single vendor on the planet that has got that one even close to right (some are considerably better than others, but when you get down to it ... pretty much all of them are "meh"). 

... and this is for *all* packages, not just Eagle (I'm talking Altium, KiCAD and so on).
I don't get your point. You have NOT gotten any of those improvements from Eagle for the last 6 years or so, still you stayed, proof that you do not need those improvements which was our point.

Not true.  Credit (albeit very limited) where it is due, CadSOFT did improve Eagle over time, but it has been at a glacial pace so you could very rightly assume that nothing was ever done. 

The module stuff introduced in 7.x (I think ... my memory is getting bad now from when they actually introduced that) was something that absolutely *needed* to be added for anything even remotely complex. 

The auto router, while still mediocre at best, has improved in v7 from say v6. 

So ... it *has* improved, but nowhere near at the rate at which KiCAD has improved in the last 5 years - and I've been watching that one closely. 

Quote
Second you want autorouter improvements but make the point yourself no-one has it or can deliver. We probably have to wait for AI to improve and be integrated in cad packages for that to happen.

So what you will end up is, a steep monthly licensing bill with some but without the real improvements you want, or seek, well good luck to you. You might consider switching to Altium and you will have all the improvements starting tomorrow, with the same monthly bill ofcourse.

... and you are completely missing *my* point. 

All products can do with development, and it is in the interests of *EVERYONE* that there is a rich and vibrant development on them all so that there is competition and that they are all forced to get better. 

If Eagle stays stagnant for too long ... it dies.  Same applies to Altium, KiCAD and so froth. 

That means as the users we have "choice". 

The development does however mean that someone actually has to do the work ... and they need to EAT and LIVE.  A roof over your head, a bed to sleep in, a meal in front of you - that means money. 

So how do you fund that?

For a commerical product, a subscription model is *one* way of funding that (it isn't the only way), and even a subscription model can be implemented in a number of different ways.  Subscriptions are not inherently evil ... it's how they are implemented that can either make them evil (or not). 

Now, the problem with EDA tools is that they really are specialist, and unlike say MS Word, you really don't get truly productive with them until you expend a *lot* of time with them so every vendor always has the benefit of inertia that a user has to overcome with changing a tool.  The longer the user has been using it, the larger the libraries, the more ingrained the work flows, and therefore the less likely the user is to change. 

That said, if there is choice, if a vendor really does screw up well and truly, they should be *terrified* that their user base will go to their competition because once a user switches, it is very unlikely that they will *ever* come back. 

I'm all in favour of a sustainable cost model for EDA tools.  Software devs need to eat - that is a simple fact of life. 

I am *NOT* in favour of a subscription *only* model and definitely not one that is "forced" onto the existing user base and basically *abusing* the inertia that the users need to overcome in order to switch. 

Am I being unreasonable???? 


/BGM
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on January 31, 2017, 09:24:58 am
Not true.  Credit (albeit very limited) where it is due, CadSOFT did improve Eagle over time, but it has been at a glacial pace so you could very rightly assume that nothing was ever done.
 
My point was that the improvements were small and over large time, that in combination with a perpetual license does not work out in terms of revenue, as we have seen.


Quote
... and you are completely missing *my* point. 
All products can do with development, and it is in the interests of *EVERYONE* that there is a rich and vibrant development on them all so that there is competition and that they are all forced to get better. 
If Eagle stays stagnant for too long ... it dies.  Same applies to Altium, KiCAD and so froth. 
That means as the users we have "choice". 

The development does however mean that someone actually has to do the work ... and they need to EAT and LIVE.  A roof over your head, a bed to sleep in, a meal in front of you - that means money. 
So how do you fund that?

I agree that "All products can do with development" now take a look at which model will most likely render this:

With a perpetual model the developers have to earn their money, if they deliver great improvements and user satisfaction for a new version, the users will upgrade and buy that new version -> money,
                                  if the developers do not improve enough, users will not upgrade -> no money

With a license model, if the developers deliver great improvements and user satisfaction -> new users, more licenses, more money/month
                                if the developers do nothing , eat out their nose -> they still earn get their money each and every month.

Perhaps it will decline as users switch to other products but as you have already read in this topic many users do not have that choice, they have invested in their libraries, personell education/training and now are facing paying each month or switching.

I am not saying this is going to be the case here and that Autocad is going to milk a dead cow for the coming years but I think that in terms of stimulation for a company to invest and improve their software product a perpetual model beats a license model: they really have to earn it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: richardlawson1489 on January 31, 2017, 11:54:02 am
Hey, Is new eagle released? When it will?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 01, 2017, 12:17:46 am
It appears to me that Autodesk Brass have made the decision to write off the Old User Base and do the licensing scheme cut-over cold turkey. That's not a nice way to do business but that's business
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 01, 2017, 04:47:18 am
Hey, Is new eagle released? When it will?

Version 8 is available for download here:  http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/free-download (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/free-download)

But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 01, 2017, 05:48:34 am
But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet.

Should I interpret that as a straight or a snarky comment?  I just looked and Dropbox Pro is a hundred bucks per year for a terabyte of space.  If EAGLE Standard gave me a terabyte of space (or the equivalent board size) for a hundred smacks a year, I might sign up for it.   :D

In all seriousness, with Continuous Integration and Continuous Deployment tools such as Jenkins commonly available, I'm surprised they haven't released an update yet.  We sometimes push out multiple releases per day over here, so if it was our product, it would have been a matter of editing a variable to change the number of layers, compile, test, deploy, celebrate.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 01, 2017, 06:04:43 am
But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet.

Should I interpret that as a straight or a snarky comment?  I just looked and Dropbox Pro is a hundred bucks per year for a terabyte of space.  If EAGLE Standard gave me a terabyte of space (or the equivalent board size) for a hundred smacks a year, I might sign up for it.   :D


Doesn't sound like such a bargain to me. For a hundred bucks I can buy more than a terabyte of space and I don't have to keep paying every year for that same space. If I want to access it elsewhere, I can put it on my server.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 01, 2017, 08:14:44 am
But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet.

Should I interpret that as a straight or a snarky comment?  I just looked and Dropbox Pro is a hundred bucks per year for a terabyte of space.  If EAGLE Standard gave me a terabyte of space (or the equivalent board size) for a hundred smacks a year, I might sign up for it.   :D

In all seriousness, with Continuous Integration and Continuous Deployment tools such as Jenkins commonly available, I'm surprised they haven't released an update yet.  We sometimes push out multiple releases per day over here, so if it was our product, it would have been a matter of editing a variable to change the number of layers, compile, test, deploy, celebrate.

That would be snark.

I don't see the virtue of daily software releases. KiCad people tout that as a feature. To me, daily releases are the definition of Hell. I'm not sure why anyone regards that as productive. 

Quarterly, with more frequent critical bug/security updates as absolutely necessary is as often as I ever want to update software and even that I would consider a nuisance.

Take six months. Test the work. Give me good software. I pay money. Rinse and repeat. It's all good.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on February 01, 2017, 11:25:09 am
I use KiCAD, and I don't particularly care for the nightly builds, i'm on 4.0.5 stable and happy with it.
If you take all of the registration fluff out of Eagle V8 there is no real new features worth upgrading for at the moment, still happy using V.7 to maintain older projects.

One thing I have noticed, a rush of videos on YT of how to switch from Eagle to KiCAD...

Some people will stay some people will leave (reminds me of a recent referendum here in the UK), as Dave and many others have said, it's a pain in the arse to change CAD packages, so if some people are willing to change it must be worth it to them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on February 01, 2017, 12:47:49 pm
My tool for converting Eagle projects to Kicad is going pretty well, there is an alpha version (preview, not for real use yet) at https://github.com/bobc/eakit. Windows only at the moment, I'm looking at Linux version.

Out of all the forums I've looked at, I've seen a whole bunch of people complaining about the new Eagle licensing and are determined to switch from Eagle, there is a tiny handful (<5) who opine that subscription model is good, and they will continue using Eagle. I haven't seen *anyone* say that because of the new features/pricing of Eagle they are thinking of switching TO Eagle.

I have seen a tiny handful who say Autodesk have some good products and like what they do, so maybe there is some positive for Autodesk.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on February 01, 2017, 01:11:38 pm
My tool for converting Eagle projects to Kicad is going pretty well, there is an alpha version (preview, not for real use yet) at https://github.com/bobc/eakit. Windows only at the moment, I'm looking at Linux version.

No worries about finding beta testers ;)

Out of all the forums I've looked at, I've seen a whole bunch of people complaining about the new Eagle licensing and are determined to switch from Eagle, there is a tiny handful (<5) who opine that subscription model is good, and they will continue using Eagle. I haven't seen *anyone* say that because of the new features/pricing of Eagle they are thinking of switching TO Eagle.

It's dead, Jim - sorry - Bob.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 01, 2017, 01:22:24 pm
I don't see the virtue of daily software releases.

I'm not pushing for daily releases of EAGLE.  It's not appropriate for every piece of software.  However, I *am* wondering why it is taking Autodesk so long to release an updated version of EAGLE that can work with four layers...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 01, 2017, 01:28:57 pm
I'm not pushing for daily releases of EAGLE.  It's not appropriate for every piece of software.  However, I *am* wondering why it is taking Autodesk so long to release an updated version of EAGLE that can work with four layers...

Maybe they hope that a few people (who are not following the forums and blogs) are desperate enough to upgrade to the pro version. Want to give them enough time to make a bad decision...  :-\
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 01, 2017, 04:04:51 pm
The daily builds are for developers and people who want to play with the bleeding edge, I don't think anyone runs those doing actual work. I usually only upgrade mine every couple years or so depending on what new features there are, and I only upgrade to stable releases.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on February 01, 2017, 04:59:19 pm
Hi Guys,

Next update is due out end of this week early next. I agree with other posters, nightly builds are not a good idea for production software. The goal right now is to squash bugs and make refinements to the new features. From here you'll see that we will be releasing updates far more frequently than we ever did as Cadsoft and instead of waiting for a major release for major features, these will be released throughout the year.

Hope this clarifies things.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Bassman59 on February 01, 2017, 05:04:28 pm
I don't see the virtue of daily software releases. KiCad people tout that as a feature.

That's not true -- the Kicad "people" encourage users to stick with the stable release (4.0.5 as of this writing).  The nightly builds are for developers, testers and those users who are willing to trade stability for access to the latest features (and there are quite a few!). I've been using a recent daily build and it's stable.

The largest issue with using nightly builds is that if they make changes to the file formats to add a new feature, those files can't be opened in the older stable version. While a reasonable person would have proper project backups, or even keep designs in a source code control repository, there is the occasional "I saved my project using the nightly build and now I can't open the file in the stable! KICAD SUCKS!"

Things with Kicad will get very interesting for nightly-build users once the library tables concept now used with pcbnew gets turned on for eeschema.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on February 01, 2017, 05:16:33 pm
I don't see the virtue of daily software releases. KiCad people tout that as a feature.

Yeah, I have to call "citation needed" on that one. It's NOT a daily release. There is a daily *test build*, obviously there are stable releases and no one is forced to use test builds.

Basically you are just spreading BS/FUD, I would leave that to people who are paid to.

"Kicad people" is a pretty meaningless phrase anyway, it's not like KiCad has a marketing division!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: iaeen on February 01, 2017, 11:39:36 pm
But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet.

Should I interpret that as a straight or a snarky comment?  I just looked and Dropbox Pro is a hundred bucks per year for a terabyte of space.  If EAGLE Standard gave me a terabyte of space (or the equivalent board size) for a hundred smacks a year, I might sign up for it.   :D

In all seriousness, with Continuous Integration and Continuous Deployment tools such as Jenkins commonly available, I'm surprised they haven't released an update yet.  We sometimes push out multiple releases per day over here, so if it was our product, it would have been a matter of editing a variable to change the number of layers, compile, test, deploy, celebrate.

That would be snark.

I don't see the virtue of daily software releases. KiCad people tout that as a feature. To me, daily releases are the definition of Hell. I'm not sure why anyone regards that as productive. 

Quarterly, with more frequent critical bug/security updates as absolutely necessary is as often as I ever want to update software and even that I would consider a nuisance.

Take six months. Test the work. Give me good software. I pay money. Rinse and repeat. It's all good.

In no version of reality is 6 months an acceptable timeframe to get the promised 4 layer functionality into the standard edition.

The company I work for sells its software to the medical industry. We have an ultra conservative development process because bugs in our product can kill people. Still, we would be out of business by now if it took 6 months to make simple changes when our customers needed it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 01, 2017, 11:51:51 pm
But it costs the same as Dropbox Pro and that's far too much from what I read on the internet.

Should I interpret that as a straight or a snarky comment?  I just looked and Dropbox Pro is a hundred bucks per year for a terabyte of space.  If EAGLE Standard gave me a terabyte of space (or the equivalent board size) for a hundred smacks a year, I might sign up for it.   :D

In all seriousness, with Continuous Integration and Continuous Deployment tools such as Jenkins commonly available, I'm surprised they haven't released an update yet.  We sometimes push out multiple releases per day over here, so if it was our product, it would have been a matter of editing a variable to change the number of layers, compile, test, deploy, celebrate.

That would be snark.

I don't see the virtue of daily software releases. KiCad people tout that as a feature. To me, daily releases are the definition of Hell. I'm not sure why anyone regards that as productive. 

Quarterly, with more frequent critical bug/security updates as absolutely necessary is as often as I ever want to update software and even that I would consider a nuisance.

Take six months. Test the work. Give me good software. I pay money. Rinse and repeat. It's all good.

In no version of reality is 6 months an acceptable timeframe to get the promised 4 layer functionality into the standard edition.

The company I work for sells its software to the medical industry. We have an ultra conservative development process because bugs in our product can kill people. Still, we would be out of business by now if it took 6 months to make simple changes when our customers needed it.

[autoshill]Since you regard me as an Autodesk employee, I am pleased to announce that the 4 layer update will be released 18 months from now, and we will be selectively charging users for it based on the obnoxiousness of the protests over the release date.

Or maybe we'll do it next week. Or not. We really just do this stuff to make you angry and write nasty comments. [/autoshill]
Title: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: hlavac on February 02, 2017, 09:01:26 am
What is Autodesk really trying to do here?
Eagle is not in the same situation as Fusion 360, which is relatively friendly to hobbyists and startups, and lives off professional users.
Hobbyists and startups may be Eagle's primary users! They will be the primary source of revenue!

The point of users buying upgrades when they want is to ensure the work in the upgrade is spent on something the users actually want. If they dont like what they see, they can skip the upgrade.
The subscription model is designed to take away the users control of what the money they pay go toward and force them to pay anyway.

Now the constant updates model they are using on Fusion 360 and will probably be used on Eagle because of the need to give something to users for the monthly subscription is another evil thing that brings instability, bugs & data corruption.

And then there is the cloud stuff.

Are they looking to make the life of hobbyists more miserable?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 02, 2017, 09:10:52 am
The motivations are obvious - they are big in mechanical design, most mechanical things have electronics in them, so they want to move to be in a "1-stop shop" position. I'd expect to see some integration with Fusion360.
 
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on February 02, 2017, 12:39:43 pm
Are they looking to make the life of hobbyists more miserable?
No, they're not looking to do it. Hobbyists will be collateral damage.

I think that is almost certainly true. CadSoft were a tiny outfit, they probably regarded being hobbyist friendly and word of mouth recommendations as a useful way to grow sales. But if you ask the product or marketing manager at a large corporate, hobbyists are not even on their radar. They are looking at revenue figures of $millions, they have zero interest in anything else. Marketing is done through very market specific channels, eg. trade shows which hobbyists are not even aware of. Possibly PR departments might pick up on hobby use. But "also used by hobbyists" is actually not a great sales angle if you are trying to sell a professional package into large organisations.

The background to this is US tax policy. US corporate tax is 40% but not on profits outside US. So US companies funnel profits into offshore companies and build big cash reserves, rather than bring it back to US and pay 40% tax. Autodesk profit is around $250 million, cash reserves in the region of $2 billion. If they paid $30 million for Eagle, that is peanuts. They still have the option of buying another product, or developing their own. Eagle was cheap and available to buy, so maybe a no-brainer. Autodesk also bought a string of other companies, such as Tinkercad. They also have 123D circuits, which is a cloud based ECAD.

All this makes perfect sense from the point of view of Autodesk, and the direction of the market in general. Companies are getting used to subscription model for Microsoft products, cloud services etc, and the bean counters even prefer it. Unfortunately, hobbyists and those one-man band companies don't enter into the calculations, they will have to make do with crumbs off the table.
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 12:53:49 pm
Autodesk profit is around $250 million, cash reserves in the region of $2 billion. If they paid $30 million for Eagle, that is peanuts. They still have the option of buying another product, or developing their own. Eagle was cheap and available to buy, so maybe a no-brainer.

Still, they must have built a financial model to prove to themselves that the deal was worthwhile. I wonder what that looks like (but will, of course, never know...). The $30M price tag is not known, but was reverse-engineered from their overall balance sheet if I recall correctly -- or is there a definitive source?
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: madires on February 02, 2017, 02:05:11 pm
I think that is almost certainly true. CadSoft were a tiny outfit, they probably regarded being hobbyist friendly and word of mouth recommendations as a useful way to grow sales. But if you ask the product or marketing manager at a large corporate, hobbyists are not even on their radar. They are looking at revenue figures of $millions, they have zero interest in anything else. Marketing is done through very market specific channels, eg. trade shows which hobbyists are not even aware of. Possibly PR departments might pick up on hobby use. But "also used by hobbyists" is actually not a great sales angle if you are trying to sell a professional package into large organisations.

Good and valid point! But what Autodesk have missed is that Eagle is a semi-professional tool at best. Trying to sell a hobbyist/maker package to corporations might be not a good idea either.
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: madires on February 02, 2017, 02:14:19 pm
Still, they must have built a financial model to prove to themselves that the deal was worthwhile. I wonder what that looks like (but will, of course, never know...).

It might not be Eagle as a product necessarily. It could also be the IP which they can integrate into one of their other software packages. Possibly the idea is drop Eagle anyway and to create a new professional EDA tool. In that case Eagle will be kept alive for a while, and later on customers are pushed to upgrade to the new EDA tool. Anyway, I think we can safely assume that Eagle, as we know it, is dead.
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 02:40:28 pm
I think that is almost certainly true. CadSoft were a tiny outfit, they probably regarded being hobbyist friendly and word of mouth recommendations as a useful way to grow sales. But if you ask the product or marketing manager at a large corporate, hobbyists are not even on their radar. They are looking at revenue figures of $millions, they have zero interest in anything else. Marketing is done through very market specific channels, eg. trade shows which hobbyists are not even aware of. Possibly PR departments might pick up on hobby use. But "also used by hobbyists" is actually not a great sales angle if you are trying to sell a professional package into large organisations.

Good and valid point! But what Autodesk have missed is that Eagle is a semi-professional tool at best. Trying to sell a hobbyist/maker package to corporations might be not a good idea either.

I've been wondering for a while, as this thread evolved:
Does anyone know about data showing what Eagle's user base actually looks like?

Cadsoft's process for ordering a hobbyist/maker license was so peculiar that I always felt they must be regarding hobbyists as a nuisance, rather than their core customers.  At least here in Germany, you had to print, sign, and either scan or snail-mail a declaration that you would only use Eagle for non-commercial purposes...   :-\
Title: Re: So what could be the Autodesk's real motivations behind buying Eagle?
Post by: CatalinaWOW on February 02, 2017, 02:49:49 pm
I think that is almost certainly true. CadSoft were a tiny outfit, they probably regarded being hobbyist friendly and word of mouth recommendations as a useful way to grow sales. But if you ask the product or marketing manager at a large corporate, hobbyists are not even on their radar. They are looking at revenue figures of $millions, they have zero interest in anything else. Marketing is done through very market specific channels, eg. trade shows which hobbyists are not even aware of. Possibly PR departments might pick up on hobby use. But "also used by hobbyists" is actually not a great sales angle if you are trying to sell a professional package into large organisations.

Good and valid point! But what Autodesk have missed is that Eagle is a semi-professional tool at best. Trying to sell a hobbyist/maker package to corporations might be not a good idea either.

I've been wondering for a while, as this thread evolved:
Does anyone know about data showing what Eagle's user base actually looks like?

Cadsoft's process for ordering a hobbyist/maker license was so peculiar that I always felt they must be regarding hobbyists as a nuisance, rather than their core customers.  At least here in Germany, you had to print, sign, and either scan or snail-mail a declaration that you would only use Eagle for non-commercial purposes...   :-\

I have no idea what the actual user base looks like, but by my recollection that nuisance in buying a hobbyist license started around version 4.0.  Either because they started setting their sights on a more professional market, or just because they felt that their revenue stream was being damaged by people "cheating".  Or maybe that is when they added a lawyer to the staff.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on February 02, 2017, 05:02:30 pm
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 05:32:09 pm
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Why would that be the case? If Autodesk were to claim that your Eagle V7 license is no longer valid at all since they now have a brand-new, different product, you would be outraged (rightfully). If you were to claim that your V7 license now suddenly covers a wider scope, I assume Autodesk would not be amused. Pacta sunt servanda...

The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on February 02, 2017, 06:18:55 pm
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Hi Kjelt,

I hope your doing well. There's a few points in your response that need clarification.

1) Autodesk has not dropped all support. We are still supporting legacy EAGLE users, if they call in for help I still answer and I still assist. If they need their packing list resent so that they can install their older version of EAGLE we send it, no problem.

2) The non-commercial clause is not off the table, the old licenses are still subject to the old Cadsoft EULA. It is not legal to use the non-commercial version for commercial purposes. Do people do it anyway? I think you and I both know the answer.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 02, 2017, 08:24:56 pm
So now CadSoft is gone and Autodesk drops all support and considers the v8 a totally seperate sw package, is the "non-commercial" use only clause from v6 and v7 now also off the table?
To say it differently is it now legal to use the old non commercial version for commercial purposes?

Why would that be the case? If Autodesk were to claim that your Eagle V7 license is no longer valid at all since they now have a brand-new, different product, you would be outraged (rightfully). If you were to claim that your V7 license now suddenly covers a wider scope, I assume Autodesk would not be amused. Pacta sunt servanda...

The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)

Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 02, 2017, 08:33:07 pm
Altium should capitalise on this publicity by offering a half price deal to existing Eagle license holders or something and push that they have a perpetual license.
Opportunity going begging...

Dave the principle issue with Altium CS is Altium policy itself. There is too much gamesmanship from Altium Brass. First they design Circuitmaker as a Cloud based product that they know has very little chance of gaining popular acceptance. They they release Circuit Studio employing Element 14 as a Value Added Retailer to implement a 300% mark up. And finally I have learned that Altium is going to be sub-licensing a version of CS to Dassault Systems to be incorporated in Solidworks. They are even advertising Solidworks as "Solidworks powered by Altium".  :palm: Does anyone think with such an open display of disregard for the Hobbyist/Maker/Small Business that any software package pitched to that market will be taken seriously no matter how good it is ? Even if the price is cut by 50%. It would seem obvious the big winner emerging from this fiasco is going to be KiCad.

I am a satisfied Dip Trace User and for the hobbyist Dip Trace Standard version is more than they will ever need. At a price of 400 dollars that undercuts the half price 500 dollar figure for Circuit Studio.

As I read this thread I am taken aback by the number of Eagle users that have stated words to the effect :

 :rant: I'm going to download KiCad and then make a big donation to CERN.

Talk about being impetuous this is a shining example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Of course small users should look out for their interests and to that end downloading KiCad or some other Open Source package is essential. But it should not stop there. Small Users should obtain a copy of at least one of the other CAD Packages if only to familiarize themselves with it. That way they are prepared for the worst should the Autodesk Scenario repeat itself in the future. From what I see Altium is playing footsies with small users and when I get that vibe I respond by stating I don't have time for games. If the focus of the Altium's Business is on the Mega Users and sub Licensing CS to leverage its presence in the market place then more power to them. But why are they wasting time and effort playing games with us ?

The lesson we all should learn from this episode is not to rely on one platform to the exclusion of everything. Even if it means obtaining a second package to only familiarise yourself. I have downloaded KiCad and noodled around with it. At this stage in its development KiCad is to clunky for my tastes but with maturity I can see it becoming a very capable package. For the time being I'm staying with Dip Trace. It's easy to use and quick for someone to come up to speed. I'm happily satisfied with the package.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 08:37:22 pm
The new subscription model offers one opportunity here, I believe: If you want to commercialize a design which you have developed in your V7 hobbyist version, I would say that all you need is one month of commercial subscription to give your design the commercial-license-blessings. There had to be something good about the subscription model!  ;)

Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

And it gets even better than that: $15 should do, for one month of the standard license!
(Which is no longer limited to non-commercial use, and is rumored to soon support 4 layers.)

What a beautiful world!  ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 02, 2017, 09:17:26 pm
"Kicad people" is a pretty meaningless phrase anyway, it's not like KiCad has a marketing division!

Maybe not Snake but before we get the impression that KiCad Developers are as pure as the driven snow check out the following news release from the KiCad website.

Quote
Gerber X2 Support
2016-11-18
The KiCad project is pleased to announce that it is the first electronic development application to fully support the Gerber X2 extensions. See the article on the PCB Design website. Thanks to the efforts of project founder Jean-Pierre Charras, KiCad can provide full Gerber X2 extension support before any proprietary or open source electronic development applications. The Gerber X2 support is currently available in the nightly builds of KiCad and will ship when the stable 5 version of KiCad is released.

I don't know what they mean when they say "to fully support" but I do know that Dip Trace released Gerber X2 and ODB++ when they released Version 3.0.0 in March of 2016. It's interesting how the KiCad statement circles back with words at the end of the statement to imply Gerber X2 support really wasn't formally released.

Quote
Gerber X2 support is currently available in the nightly builds of KiCad and will ship when the stable 5 version of KiCad is released.

This is Laundry Detergent advertising language and it arouses suspicion. It would appear to me that more than a few folks at KiCad seem to be more than a little anxious to acquire as much market share as possible. What's that all about ?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 02, 2017, 09:46:40 pm
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
I'm starting to look forward to your posts Lab, I get a good chuckle out of them.   :-DD

I absolutely agree that if you're just starting out, $65 (or $15) is a fantastic deal!  I think I've alluded to the idea of the old market vs the new market for EAGLE.  This is great for the new market.   :blah:

But, I can also see why so many from the old market are upset.   :horse:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on February 02, 2017, 09:48:32 pm
Hi Kjelt,
1) Autodesk has not dropped all support.
2) The non-commercial clause is not off the table
Thanks for the clarification  :)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 02, 2017, 11:07:51 pm
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

Autodesk may have a hostile clause in their license agreement -- or may eventually feel the need to add one -- to the effect that noncommercial licenses cannot be upgraded at the last minute, or upgraded only temporarily, for the purpose of commercial distribution. 

This is the same problem faced by Qt, the open-source UI toolkit that EAGLE and about a million other applications use.  Note the waffling and contradictory language in clause 3.13 (https://www.qt.io/faq/#_Toc_3_13).  If you get away with disregarding this requirement, it's only because you're not worth going after, not because you're legally in the clear.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 03, 2017, 02:49:53 am
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."

Autodesk may have a hostile clause in their license agreement -- or may eventually feel the need to add one -- to the effect that noncommercial licenses cannot be upgraded at the last minute, or upgraded only temporarily, for the purpose of commercial distribution. 

Find it, or ask Jorge if there is one.  I doubt it.  The whole idea of the month-to-month pricing is that one pays a premium for short duration use of the full package.  I know that I'm one of the few that think it's a feature, but I'm a one-man-bander like many here, and I simply don't do full-time PCB design, but when I do, time is precious and I want a user-friendly package.  The same goes for CAD.  Far from full-time, but when I do, I love having full-tilt AutoCad versus something "foreign" that takes a lot of learning. 

So, while paying monthly fees is irritating on a monthly basis, the subscription model with the option to buy only one month or a few, allows me to go legit *and* be productive with a decent tool.

Honestly, I think Autodesk will do a good job of bringing Eagle up to modern standards.  When that happens, there's going to be a lot of people looking at Altium and wondering if they *really* need that one whizzbang feature that only gets used 1% of the time, versus a far less expensive package that gets the job done well, with the minor consequence of some extra fussing with corner case designs. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 03, 2017, 02:51:16 am
Whoa!  Do you mean for $65, one no longer need be tempted to violate their license agreement to turn out the odd commercial design?  That's just crazy!

Take me back, Autodesk!  Take me back to the Teutonic-ally halcyon days of, "$1700 or piss off, little prole."
I'm starting to look forward to your posts Lab, I get a good chuckle out of them.   :-DD

I absolutely agree that if you're just starting out, $65 (or $15) is a fantastic deal!  I think I've alluded to the idea of the old market vs the new market for EAGLE.  This is great for the new market.   :blah:

But, I can also see why so many from the old market are upset.   :horse:

I'm glad you're getting the fact that I'm just trying to rib you guys on some of this stuff.  Give the Dark Side a try.  We have cookies. :-+
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 03, 2017, 03:25:33 am
Honestly, I think Autodesk will do a good job of bringing Eagle up to modern standards.  When that happens, there's going to be a lot of people looking at Altium and wondering if they *really* need that one whizzbang feature that only gets used 1% of the time, versus a far less expensive package that gets the job done well, with the minor consequence of some extra fussing with corner case designs.

This.  I don't think I'm alone when I say I've been waiting a long time for EAGLE to mature into the product I think it could be.  If it gets closer to the Altium level while providing integration with the other Autodesk products, I think it'll be a winner.

For sure, if I was a brand new user without any Cadsoft baggage, I'd be all over it.  Of course, with my luck, I chose TurboCAD and Lightwave along with EAGLE, so I might have some adapting to do...   |O
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 03, 2017, 03:37:46 pm
[...] I don't think I'm alone when I say I've been waiting a long time for EAGLE to mature into the product I think it could be.  If it gets closer to the Altium level while providing integration with the other Autodesk products, I think it'll be a winner.

For sure, if I was a brand new user without any Cadsoft baggage, I'd be all over it.  Of course, with my luck, I chose TurboCAD and Lightwave along with EAGLE, so I might have some adapting to do...   |O

I wonder whether buying Eagle is a good starting point for coming close to the Altium level. While I like Eagle for it's simplicity and customization options, I wonder whether the core of the software really can be improved to that level without doing essentially a rewrite. For example:
I could go on for some time, but I think you get the point.
None of that matters for entry to mid-level boards, and a skilled engineer/user can work around most of the limitations. For new users, it's in fact an advantage, since they are not overwhelmed by the many features they don't need.
But if you buy a enterprise level CAD package like the ones Autodesk offers, why on earth would you choose it because it comes with an integrated or closely linked entry-level PCB solution? It would make more sense to have a mid-to-high-level PCB solution coupled to it. Also, I doubt many EEs would use a mechanical CAD package to do their routing. The workflow is so different that I cannot think of a good combination of both interfaces. And if you use separate interfaces, there's no advantage over two standalone programs.

If they want to improve eagle to the point where it can compete with Altium, I doubt that there's much of the original code left untouched. All the really hard problems (especially DRC and router) are still unsolved to achieve that level with Eagle.
They could have hired a bunch of developers from the big ECAD companies and have more success in developing a high end suite from scratch. Now they have a software that needs a major overhaul, and when they do that to reach a reasonable level to make if worth combining with MCAD, chances are high they break compatibility/work-flow/legacy ULPs for existing users.

So essentially existing users will most likely be upset because their work-flow becomes more complicated and legacy tools will break; new professional users will be highly skeptical, since Eagle doesn't have a reputation as a high-end tool and Autodesk has little ECAD experience, and new hobbyist/SME users will not be able to pay the kind of money Autodesk is used to charge for their products. So the big question is, who is the target audience for this new solution that justifies development costs? Especially as they are trying hard to get rid of most of their existing users/community, which always was the strong point of Eagle.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on February 03, 2017, 04:16:34 pm
Exactly! The way Autodesk are dealing with Eagle at the moment doesn't make much sense, besides maybe trying to figure out how much they can sqeeze out of customers. I'd assume a professional version of Eagle would require a re-write. As it is right now it's a hobbyist/maker/SME EDA package. And adding a few features won't change this.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: hlavac on February 03, 2017, 04:23:19 pm
So it seems to me they basically want the current users to pay for the improvements that will ultimately mean they will not be able to afford it anymore... hence the forced subscription.

Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one? It was fine for my three boards a year, thank you very much.. I even paid for the non commercial hobbyist version to get the bigger area!



Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 03, 2017, 09:31:59 pm
Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one

Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 03, 2017, 11:29:39 pm
So essentially existing users will most likely be upset because their work-flow becomes more complicated and legacy tools will break; new professional users will be highly skeptical, since Eagle doesn't have a reputation as a high-end tool and Autodesk has little ECAD experience, and new hobbyist/SME users will not be able to pay the kind of money Autodesk is used to charge for their products. So the big question is, who is the target audience for this new solution that justifies development costs? Especially as they are trying hard to get rid of most of their existing users/community, which always was the strong point of Eagle.

An excellent assessment. 

If EAGLE could have been turned into a top-tier competitor, CADSoft would have already done it.  Autodesk basically bought themselves 20 years of technical debt.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 03, 2017, 11:33:49 pm
Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one

Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee.

Why would those users even need Altium's maintenance? Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on February 04, 2017, 01:06:21 am
Aah.  The age old question of economics.  What is the price elasticity curve for a given product, and how does it change with features.

For some reason software vendors seem to have no clue about this whole concept.  When complaining about piracy they state their losses as the number of pirated copies times the retail price.  Not realizing that the market is far larger for an item at zero perceived cost than it is for something with a real cost.  Open source software is also vulnerable to this trap when comparing market penetration.  Some open source software is actually excellent and has achieved its market share through merit.  Others are used for ideological reasons or because it is free.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 04, 2017, 01:18:41 am
Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.

You'd be surprised how fast money can erase that gap. All you need is enough of it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 04, 2017, 01:21:38 am
Eagle is so far behind a product like Altium that I don't see it catching up within a reasonable period.

You'd be surprised how fast money can erase that gap. All you need is enough of it.

Sure, and as someone else pointed out already, you'd pretty much have to throw it all out and start over, so why bother buying an existing product?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 04, 2017, 01:24:57 am
Aah.  The age old question of economics.  What is the price elasticity curve for a given product, and how does it change with features.

For some reason software vendors seem to have no clue about this whole concept.  When complaining about piracy they state their losses as the number of pirated copies times the retail price.  Not realizing that the market is far larger for an item at zero perceived cost than it is for something with a real cost.  Open source software is also vulnerable to this trap when comparing market penetration.  Some open source software is actually excellent and has achieved its market share through merit.  Others are used for ideological reasons or because it is free.

That drives me nuts with the movie and music industry too. I'm not going to condone piracy, but to claim every illegal download as a lost sale is absolutely absurd. As if every teenager with 50,000 MP3s would have spent $50K on their music collection if they couldn't get it for free. I'd bet that the amount of piracy that represents actual lost sales is probably closer to 20% and even that may be very optimistic. I cannot even take their concerns seriously when they are so utterly hyperbolic.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 04, 2017, 01:30:11 am
Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee.

I concur with Dave on this. Between 1 Grand and 10 Grand is a Dead Zone. Maybe you can work the Hobbyist/Developer client base into a 2 Grand Package with maturity of the software and enough features. Or possibly even create a new niche with a 2500 dollar package that enables small independent design houses to pop up. But the Big Manufacturers want the latest and greatest no expense spared. They are will to pay for the best. There are no Bargain Hunters in that demographic to drive prices down so why cut prices when the market is already established ?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 04, 2017, 01:44:19 am
Sure, and as someone else pointed out already, you'd pretty much have to throw it all out and start over, so why bother buying an existing product?

Because in a worst case scenario the Eagle name is established. And maybe that is all Autodesk is after, the Splash Screen.

I would think that large portions of the UI still have value to Autodesk.

For all we know Autodesk is using Version 8 as sort of a stalking horse to test market acceptance. Maybe after substantial input they jump to version 10. With more customer feedback they make another overhaul and release it as Eagle 2 Version 1.0.0 The Eagle name is still there.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on February 04, 2017, 11:04:57 am
Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee.

Please see http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage (http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage) and also have a look at the features.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on February 04, 2017, 11:30:36 am
3D flex board design. I have never seen that before. I guess this is something Autodesk could add.
Or vice versa, merge parts of eagle in their 3D stuff.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 04, 2017, 01:04:30 pm
3D flex board design. I have never seen that before. I guess this is something Autodesk could add.
Or vice versa, merge parts of eagle in their 3D stuff.
You mean something like this?
http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ADOH/Presenting+a+Rigid-Flex+Design+in+3D (http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ADOH/Presenting+a+Rigid-Flex+Design+in+3D)
Although I admit that the Target! 3D Design goes a bit further by allowing a 3d shape for routing. However, the (current) market for this seems somewhat smaller to me.

Seriously, why kill a hobbyist level product to create a professional level one
Because in-between $100 CAD and $10,000+ CAD, there is no dominant product, but there is certainly a market demand for a product.  If Autodesk can create an attractive platform out of Eagle, there's likely more than a few high-end amateurs and professionals that would jump on board for an annual cost that's close to 1/4th of Altium's annual maintenance fee. 
Last time I looked, Circuit Studio was  900€ ($970) and there are plenty of others (e.g. Diptrace) in that range. If you said $100 to $1000, I would have agreed that there is no decent product (or none of the decent products without severe imposed limitations). And as james_s has pointed out, these are perpetual licenses. I don't think that in this price range regular updates are really such a strong selling point once the software has a reasonable amount of features and is stable.
So the "subscription only" model doesn't make sense here, and Eagle doesn't make much sense for the mid-to-high-end market. Apart from that, I think the ROI for a decent product is bad below $1000. Otherwise someone else would have established a better/uncrippled product there. There are plenty of small CAD packages, so it's not like nobody is trying.

Because in a worst case scenario the Eagle name is established. And maybe that is all Autodesk is after, the Splash Screen.
I would think that large portions of the UI still have value to Autodesk.

For all we know Autodesk is using Version 8 as sort of a stalking horse to test market acceptance. Maybe after substantial input they jump to version 10. With more customer feedback they make another overhaul and release it as Eagle 2 Version 1.0.0 The Eagle name is still there.
Large portions of the UI? Autodesk might be accused of many things, but the UIs of their (recent) products seem to be up to date. Apart from the fact that it is multi-platform capable, the same is not true for Eagle. Lots of modal dialogues, no multi-document handling etc. I doubt Eagle would fit very well there.

As for the name, I'm not sure whether it's worth that much. Most professionals frown on it (no matter whether they are right), most hobbyists/SMEs associate a strange interface with it. You can say there is no such thing as bad publicity, but the Eagle brand has pretty much opposite connotations as Autodesk. I could understand, if they would like to expand to the low-end market, Eagle would be useful. But then they shouldn't have changed the licensing model, as this only reinforces their current image of being expensive and aimed at corporations. No one will buy Eagle because it used to be a good deal when it's not any more.

And as was pointed out before, the cost of switching ECAD packages is immensely high, once you've become accustomed to one. So in order to gain users from the existing packages in the same price area, they have to deliver a much better product. Until they give away their 3D MCAD for the same price (which would be a no brainer on it's own, but is very unlikely to happen for their parametric packages), they don't have any edge over their competition.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 04, 2017, 06:16:57 pm
Last time I looked, Circuit Studio was  900€ ($970) and there are plenty of others (e.g. Diptrace) in that range. If you said $100 to $1000, I would have agreed that there is no decent product (or none of the decent products without severe imposed limitations). And as james_s has pointed out, these are perpetual licenses. I don't think that in this price range regular updates are really such a strong selling point once the software has a reasonable amount of features and is stable.
So the "subscription only" model doesn't make sense here, and Eagle doesn't make much sense for the mid-to-high-end market. Apart from that, I think the ROI for a decent product is bad below $1000. Otherwise someone else would have established a better/uncrippled product there. There are plenty of small CAD packages, so it's not like nobody is trying.

Circuit Studio is a month of my life that I will never get back.  It *kind of* works.  The support is virtually non-existent.  The split between Newark taking on tech support and Altium doing the development is a complete disaster.  The price is attractive, but the result is unattractive at any price.  I wouldn't bother with Circuit Studio, even if it was free.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 05, 2017, 11:33:05 am
Circuit Studio is a month of my life that I will never get back.  It *kind of* works.  The support is virtually non-existent.  The split between Newark taking on tech support and Altium doing the development is a complete disaster.  The price is attractive, but the result is unattractive at any price.  I wouldn't bother with Circuit Studio, even if it was free.
Sorry to hear that, but good to know. I'm using Altium Designer when something is a bit too big for eagle and I'm happy with it. It sure has it's bugs, especially with every .0 version. They usually get the most annoying ones fixed within a few minor releases, but I can imagine what circuit studio might feel like if it hasn't went through these iterations.
It's really a shame that Altium seems to have problems to produce stable releases without the massive beta testing their regular users do. The software could be a lot better if they would focus more on stability.
I was thinking to get Circuit Studio to be able to do commercial work (AD is an academic license) but that option just became very unlikely.
I wonder whether they will ever realize that these bugs are probably costing them a lot more users and reputation (and therefore money) than the additional development costs would take. But that's another story. Seems that there should be a chief common sense officer in every corporation ;). Might have prevented the Eagle disaster as well.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: langwadt on February 05, 2017, 07:24:38 pm
[...] I don't think I'm alone when I say I've been waiting a long time for EAGLE to mature into the product I think it could be.  If it gets closer to the Altium level while providing integration with the other Autodesk products, I think it'll be a winner.

For sure, if I was a brand new user without any Cadsoft baggage, I'd be all over it.  Of course, with my luck, I chose TurboCAD and Lightwave along with EAGLE, so I might have some adapting to do...   |O

I wonder whether buying Eagle is a good starting point for coming close to the Altium level. While I like Eagle for it's simplicity and customization options, I wonder whether the core of the software really can be improved to that level without doing essentially a rewrite. For example:
  • Planes are nonexistant and have to be imitated by polygons

other than possibly a larger file size why does it matter?

seems to me that planes are just a historic left-over from when layout were done with tape
and an inverse was easier than taping a whole sheet 

[/list]
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on February 05, 2017, 10:12:44 pm
Altiums shelving is genuis though.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 05, 2017, 10:14:39 pm
Quote
Planes are nonexistant and have to be imitated by polygons
other than possibly a larger file size why does it matter?
seems to me that planes are just a historic left-over from when layout were done with tape
and an inverse was easier than taping a whole sheet 
On it's own it might not be too important, but when you combine it with the second point on my list that polygons are created as line fills, it just doesn't scale very well, especially with better arc approximation (smaller fill widths). (And as a side note: Line fills are definitely a relict from the past)
I know you are probably right to say that CPU and memory are cheap today, but I still prefer a clever implementation over brute force. And my experience is that when you push software to its limits, these details make a difference.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 06, 2017, 02:52:22 am
(And as a side note: Line fills are definitely a relict from the past)

I don't really get this.  If you're going to generate Gerbers, you're going to generate line fills anyway.  Why not make the process explicit, as EAGLE does, and give the user control over the resolution?

Same issue at the board house.  Sure, you can generate parametric surfaces or Bezier splines or whatever, but CNC machines don't use those.  The graphics objects have to be converted in order to actually fabricate anything.  Why pretend otherwise?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 06, 2017, 09:22:04 am
(And as a side note: Line fills are definitely a relict from the past)
I don't really get this.  If you're going to generate Gerbers, you're going to generate line fills anyway.  Why not make the process explicit, as EAGLE does, and give the user control over the resolution?

Same issue at the board house.  Sure, you can generate parametric surfaces or Bezier splines or whatever, but CNC machines don't use those.  The graphics objects have to be converted in order to actually fabricate anything.  Why pretend otherwise?
Well, if you take a look at the gerber file format specification https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf (https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf), you'll find on pages 76 and 117 that Gerber does indeed support Polygons (true polygons). And other software vendors export those to Gerber files. It's mainly eagle that still does line fills only.
The Gerber specification even states in the Preface
Quote
Some applications stubbornly continue to use painting (aka stroking) to create pads and copper
pours. While not formally invalid painted files require more manual work and increase the risk of
errors in fabrication. Painting is a relic of the days of vector photoplotters, devices as obsolete
as the electrical typewriter. The rationale for painting disappeared decades ago, its
disadvantages remain.  We urge all users and developers to banish painting from our industry.
I think that's clear enough. Please note that polygons are already available with 274X, released in 1998. As for Bezier splines: I agree that they are of limited use once you have to get the data into a CAM processor. But polylines and polygons should work just fine.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 06, 2017, 10:39:23 am
(And as a side note: Line fills are definitely a relict from the past)
I don't really get this.  If you're going to generate Gerbers, you're going to generate line fills anyway.  Why not make the process explicit, as EAGLE does, and give the user control over the resolution?

Same issue at the board house.  Sure, you can generate parametric surfaces or Bezier splines or whatever, but CNC machines don't use those.  The graphics objects have to be converted in order to actually fabricate anything.  Why pretend otherwise?
Well, if you take a look at the gerber file format specification https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf (https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf), you'll find on pages 76 and 117 that Gerber does indeed support Polygons (true polygons). And other software vendors export those to Gerber files. It's mainly eagle that still does line fills only.
The Gerber specification even states in the Preface
Quote
Some applications stubbornly continue to use painting (aka stroking) to create pads and copper
pours. While not formally invalid painted files require more manual work and increase the risk of
errors in fabrication. Painting is a relic of the days of vector photoplotters, devices as obsolete
as the electrical typewriter. The rationale for painting disappeared decades ago, its
disadvantages remain.  We urge all users and developers to banish painting from our industry.
I think that's clear enough. Please note that polygons are already available with 274X, released in 1998. As for Bezier splines: I agree that they are of limited use once you have to get the data into a CAM processor. But polylines and polygons should work just fine.

Fair enough.  Sounds like I'm a bit behind the times, along with EAGLE. :)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 06, 2017, 11:20:47 am
Fair enough.  Sounds like I'm a bit behind the times, along with EAGLE. :)
Don't worry, I was surprised as well when I first viewed Gerbers from other programs and saw what's possible with the format. As long as you are not working on a Gerber translator, there should be no obligation to know the format in depth ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 07, 2017, 10:11:35 pm
Circuit Studio is a month of my life that I will never get back.  It *kind of* works.  The support is virtually non-existent.  The split between Newark taking on tech support and Altium doing the development is a complete disaster.  The price is attractive, but the result is unattractive at any price.  I wouldn't bother with Circuit Studio, even if it was free.

To each their own.

I'm glad you have such blind loyalty to Eagle and Autodesk after all Version 8 of Eagle promises to be only the start of a massive make over for the package. Will you be able to adapt to that overnight or will it take longer ? As to product support or lack of support as it may be more accurately described. The grim reality is most if not all software developers have learned the trick of dumping Product Support on to Internet User Forums where they can get other users to do it for free. This phenomenon is particularly true when dealing with large numbers of small users. One-on-One service is very expensive for the manufacturer and really something that only can be provided from the revenue stream that comes from a product like Altium Designer. For smaller packages Internet Forum Support is the only economically feasible means of accomplishing it. It offers the advantage of putting everything in one place and relieves the staff of the burden of answering repetitive questions.

I am a satisfied Diptrace User. It was my first PCB CAD Program and between the ease of use of the package and the online support I received I was able to go from 0 to 60 in less than 2 Months working at my leisure. It was a little daunting at first as I didn't know if I could get my questions answered in a timely fashion. At times Diptrace's Proprietary Message Board looks hauntingly quiet but after a few posts I gained the confidence the User Forums are constantly being monitored by DipTrace Staff. Derek also does a good job keeping an eye on the Diptrace Forum here on the EEVblog. From what I have seen Altium, likewise, has personnel assigned to monitor the Altium Designer and Circuit Studio Forums here. So saying Altium's support for Circuit Studio is "virtually non-existent" is factually not true.

This whole episode prompted me to cover my bases and seek out a backup program should what happened to Eagle ever happen to Diptrace. I have downloaded KiCad and played around with it. I have come to the conclusion the user interface and ease of operation are lacking. Nonetheless KiCad will get you where you want to go in the absence of any other alternative. If a price war among PCB CAD Software providers were to break out resulting in CS's Price being cut in half I would certainly jump at the chance to pick up a copy at which time CS would become my back-up program. I would even go so far as paying for 2 to 3 Revision Updates to make sure I have a bug free version installed on my computer. Once I get to that stage I am finished purchasing Altium Products as long as things are going well with Diptrace.

It's clear that Autodesk wants to rumble with Altium in the Mega User/Manufacturer Market. The way Autodesk has treated its small users in this episode should leave no doubt where those Users stand on Autodesk's lists of priorities. As to the heavy weight fight it means little to me. Diptrace offers me what I want and what I need. I'll just stand back and watch the fight.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on February 07, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
Circuit Studio is a month of my life that I will never get back.  It *kind of* works.  The support is virtually non-existent.  The split between Newark taking on tech support and Altium doing the development is a complete disaster.  The price is attractive, but the result is unattractive at any price.  I wouldn't bother with Circuit Studio, even if it was free.

To each their own.

I'm glad you have such blind loyalty to Eagle and Autodesk after all Version 8 of Eagle promises to be only the start of a massive make over for the package. Will you be able to adapt to that overnight or will it take longer ? As to product support or lack of support as it may be more accurately described.

Hi K6TR,

On what basis do you affirm lack of support? Take a look here:
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500 (http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500)

I am the most active user on that young forum with the highest number of supplied solutions, you'll find a similar pattern in our old forums here: http://eaglecentral.ca (http://eaglecentral.ca) . . I can also be reached by email support.eagle@autodesk.com. I can also be reached by phone, but I would rather not put that number on a public forum for fear crank calling.

I take my support job very seriously, because I know what's it's like to be looking for help and not be able to get it when you need it the most. Hence why I've also been responding on these forums whenever a post call for it.

It's OK to rip on a tool you don't care for, but please verify the facts before posting.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on February 07, 2017, 11:46:53 pm
I also wouldn't rip on the support or the Eagle program itself. Both experiences have been totally fine for my purposes, I have zero complaints about Eagle support staff and have been very productive in using this program. There is plenty of online and direct engagement, both user-to-user and Cadsoft-to-user. My only complaint is the subscription model, which unfortunately is a dealbreaker.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 08, 2017, 12:34:44 am
I also wouldn't rip on the support or the Eagle program itself. Both experiences have been totally fine for my purposes, I have zero complaints about Eagle support staff and have been very productive in using this program. There is plenty of online and direct engagement, both user-to-user and Cadsoft-to-user. My only complaint is the subscription model, which unfortunately is a dealbreaker.

This. 

Complaining about CadSoft's UI conventions has been a hallowed pastime among EAGLE users and detractors for decades, but at the end of the day the original developers have done a good job supporting the product, along with Jorge. 

Jorge, keep in mind that if EAGLE weren't the sole occupant of a large chunk of real estate on the price/value plot for EDA software, nobody would care enough to complain.  So don't let the grousing get you down. :)  EAGLE has been the best solution by far for a great many smaller shops, and that's why its users are so resentful about having choice and security taken away by Autodesk.  The price has gone up a bit, which is OK, but the product's long-term value has plunged.  Engineers don't like uncertainty, and you guys have delivered a heaping helping of it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 08, 2017, 01:43:04 am
Hi K6TR,

On what basis do you affirm lack of support? Take a look here

Hi Jorge

Two Points

1) My remarks were to Spokane's charge that Altium's support of Circuit Studio is "virtually non-existent". I would have hoped my use of the quote would leave no question about where my remarks were directed. Obviously you chose to include Cadsoft, Autodesk and the Eagle Support Staff to be at the point end of my remarks. Those were not my intentions and should have been obvious.

2) Jorge, Autodesk chose to change its subscription model of it's own volition. It did so at whim and caprice which is their right as a privately held business. But don't expect the loyal Eagle Users who paid their money for a Perpetual License to take it with a smile when they are told without warning that henceforth there will be no more updates for perpetual licenses the power cord for the Cadsoft Server is being yanked out of the wall and if they want to continue with the product they have to purchase a subscription license. Dave pointed out in his video that many Eagle Users met the news of Autodesk's acquisition of Eagle with apprehension and misgivings. Autodesk's response was to feed them a line of reassurances which didn't hold up for 7 months before the customers' legs were cut out from underneath them.

To be sure Jorge Customer Service matters should be the least of Eagle's/Autodesk's concerns at this time. For all intents and purposes Autodesk's Eagle software product is dead with the existing customer base. And if Autodesk Management thought their actions would result in anything different then they are incompetent. They kicked their customers to the curb in pursuit of a bigger market and those Customers know it. And then we have Spokane come in here with his Eagle colored Pom-Poms telling those users the stinging of the hose lashes they feel on their back is all in their minds. I know the situation you are in jorge I worked in field service for 25 years and I know the feeling of what it is like to be the Designated Spear Catcher when management makes the decision to do an about face.

Whether Autodesk Management is aware of it or not Eagle is a dead product with its existing customer base as a result of THEIR decisions. And that is the facts. I made my comments about Diptrace mindful of that reality. I also made my comments as a Paying User of Diptrace not as an employee. I have no pecuniary interest in this matter. What I do have is good experiences with Diptrace and think that experience is noteworthy considering many Eagle Users are now looking for alternatives. The vast majority of those users will no doubt seek the cheapest option and head off to KiCad.

In summary Jorge I suggest you and macegr stop to reread a post before you launch into an attack half cocked.

Have a nice day
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 08, 2017, 03:03:18 am
Circuit Studio is a month of my life that I will never get back.  It *kind of* works.  The support is virtually non-existent.  The split between Newark taking on tech support and Altium doing the development is a complete disaster.  The price is attractive, but the result is unattractive at any price.  I wouldn't bother with Circuit Studio, even if it was free.

To each their own.

I'm glad you have such blind loyalty to Eagle and Autodesk after all Version 8 of Eagle promises to be only the start of a massive make over for the package. Will you be able to adapt to that overnight or will it take longer ? As to product support or lack of support as it may be more accurately described. The grim reality is most if not all software developers have learned the trick of dumping Product Support on to Internet User Forums where they can get other users to do it for free. This phenomenon is particularly true when dealing with large numbers of small users. One-on-One service is very expensive for the manufacturer and really something that only can be provided from the revenue stream that comes from a product like Altium Designer. For smaller packages Internet Forum Support is the only economically feasible means of accomplishing it. It offers the advantage of putting everything in one place and relieves the staff of the burden of answering repetitive questions.

I am a satisfied Diptrace User. It was my first PCB CAD Program and between the ease of use of the package and the online support I received I was able to go from 0 to 60 in less than 2 Months working at my leisure. It was a little daunting at first as I didn't know if I could get my questions answered in a timely fashion. At times Diptrace's Proprietary Message Board looks hauntingly quiet but after a few posts I gained the confidence the User Forums are constantly being monitored by DipTrace Staff. Derek also does a good job keeping an eye on the Diptrace Forum here on the EEVblog. From what I have seen Altium, likewise, has personnel assigned to monitor the Altium Designer and Circuit Studio Forums here. So saying Altium's support for Circuit Studio is "virtually non-existent" is factually not true.

This whole episode prompted me to cover my bases and seek out a backup program should what happened to Eagle ever happen to Diptrace. I have downloaded KiCad and played around with it. I have come to the conclusion the user interface and ease of operation are lacking. Nonetheless KiCad will get you where you want to go in the absence of any other alternative. If a price war among PCB CAD Software providers were to break out resulting in CS's Price being cut in half I would certainly jump at the chance to pick up a copy at which time CS would become my back-up program. I would even go so far as paying for 2 to 3 Revision Updates to make sure I have a bug free version installed on my computer. Once I get to that stage I am finished purchasing Altium Products as long as things are going well with Diptrace.

It's clear that Autodesk wants to rumble with Altium in the Mega User/Manufacturer Market. The way Autodesk has treated its small users in this episode should leave no doubt where those Users stand on Autodesk's lists of priorities. As to the heavy weight fight it means little to me. Diptrace offers me what I want and what I need. I'll just stand back and watch the fight.  :popcorn:

Huh? You just read that I spent a month trying to escape Eagle.  Coming back to Eagle was not "blind loyalty."  It was a fundamental admission that Eagle is stable, and despite its peccadillos, is more productive at this point. I've also tried other packages, including Diptrace. I came back to Eagle.

And you don't need to lecture me about Circuit Studio's support and development issues. I've spent plenty of time trying to work through CS's many flaws with my squawk list eventually getting escalated to a VP at Altium with essentially him admitting that the issues I was seeing were a ways off from ever being addressed. There is a problem. They know it. Newark knows it as well.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 08, 2017, 09:27:25 am
And you don't need to lecture me about Circuit Studio's support and development issues. I've spent plenty of time trying to work through CS's many flaws with my squawk list eventually getting escalated to a VP at Altium with essentially him admitting that the issues I was seeing were a ways off from ever being addressed. There is a problem. They know it. Newark knows it as well.
I'm curious what these problems are specifically. Sounds like they are either so deep in the architecture of the program that the fix would take a prohibitive amount of resources, or that they are intended to not attract too many users from their high-end package. I'm really curious about this, since with Altium Designer I have the impression that the real deal breakers (something that breaks your ability to get a board out) get addressed. They take a bit longer for this than they should, and these problems shouldn't slip through internal testings procedures, but once they know about them they work hard to fix them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: IanJ on February 08, 2017, 11:54:09 am
And you don't need to lecture me about Circuit Studio's support and development issues. I've spent plenty of time trying to work through CS's many flaws with my squawk list eventually getting escalated to a VP at Altium with essentially him admitting that the issues I was seeing were a ways off from ever being addressed. There is a problem. They know it. Newark knows it as well.
I'm curious what these problems are specifically. Sounds like they are either so deep in the architecture of the program that the fix would take a prohibitive amount of resources, or that they are intended to not attract too many users from their high-end package. I'm really curious about this, since with Altium Designer I have the impression that the real deal breakers (something that breaks your ability to get a board out) get addressed. They take a bit longer for this than they should, and these problems shouldn't slip through internal testings procedures, but once they know about them they work hard to fix them.

Example: Use 'V' to drop a via onto a ground plane and the app crashes big time when you try to terminate the route........the official workaround is to use '*' instead which works fine. Altium told me it won't be fixed anytime soon as it's due to core processes.
There's a few issues like this but when you get to know the ones to avoid then for me anyways CS is the best. Have never regretted moving away from Eagle (Pro license).
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.

Ian.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on February 08, 2017, 12:58:54 pm
...
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.
Eagle crashed on me once. But it wasn't fair play, the network drive became unavailable.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 08, 2017, 06:41:20 pm
And you don't need to lecture me about Circuit Studio's support and development issues. I've spent plenty of time trying to work through CS's many flaws with my squawk list eventually getting escalated to a VP at Altium with essentially him admitting that the issues I was seeing were a ways off from ever being addressed. There is a problem. They know it. Newark knows it as well.
I'm curious what these problems are specifically. Sounds like they are either so deep in the architecture of the program that the fix would take a prohibitive amount of resources, or that they are intended to not attract too many users from their high-end package. I'm really curious about this, since with Altium Designer I have the impression that the real deal breakers (something that breaks your ability to get a board out) get addressed. They take a bit longer for this than they should, and these problems shouldn't slip through internal testings procedures, but once they know about them they work hard to fix them.

Example: Use 'V' to drop a via onto a ground plane and the app crashes big time when you try to terminate the route........the official workaround is to use '*' instead which works fine. Altium told me it won't be fixed anytime soon as it's due to core processes.
There's a few issues like this but when you get to know the ones to avoid then for me anyways CS is the best. Have never regretted moving away from Eagle (Pro license).
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.

Ian.

Ian have you seen the list of features that was cut out of Designer to make CS ?

https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/76216-102-1-315698/CS%20v%20AD%20Feature%20Comparison%20-%20Final.pdf (https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/76216-102-1-315698/CS%20v%20AD%20Feature%20Comparison%20-%20Final.pdf)

53 of 136 features are deleted. It would seem to me that taking a meat ax a sound program is a good way to introduce timing and other instability errors.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on February 08, 2017, 06:48:10 pm
...
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.
Eagle crashed on me once. But it wasn't fair play, the network drive became unavailable.

5 never crashed for me either, but 7...dang. I actually do have one complaint about Eagle and it's the crashes on OSX on version 7. It will crash over and over while panning or zooming, the official workaround from Eagle support is to resize the window before working. Unfortunately this behavior persisted over a number of minor point revisions without getting fixed, and will not be fixed on the 7.x line.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 08, 2017, 10:20:25 pm
...
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.
Eagle crashed on me once. But it wasn't fair play, the network drive became unavailable.

5 never crashed for me either, but 7...dang. I actually do have one complaint about Eagle and it's the crashes on OSX on version 7. It will crash over and over while panning or zooming, the official workaround from Eagle support is to resize the window before working. Unfortunately this behavior persisted over a number of minor point revisions without getting fixed, and will not be fixed on the 7.x line.

I haven't experienced that with v7 on OSX. Maybe just good luck on my part. But I also haven't been designing PCBs after upgrading the OS to Sierra.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on February 09, 2017, 08:24:32 am
...
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.
Eagle crashed on me once. But it wasn't fair play, the network drive became unavailable.

5 never crashed for me either, but 7...dang. I actually do have one complaint about Eagle and it's the crashes on OSX on version 7. It will crash over and over while panning or zooming, the official workaround from Eagle support is to resize the window before working. Unfortunately this behavior persisted over a number of minor point revisions without getting fixed, and will not be fixed on the 7.x line.

I haven't experienced that with v7 on OSX. Maybe just good luck on my part. But I also haven't been designing PCBs after upgrading the OS to Sierra.

I use v7 on OSX too and it's been rock solid stable for a long time. I had some issues back in v7.1/v7.2 but nothing since. I think it may have been resolved when I updated OSX from 10.10 that originally came with my iMac which would of course update the nVidia driver version which I suspect is what resolved my crashes as they were when panning/zooming. It's been fine ever since and I am currently running it on Sierra without issue. I remember having a conversation with another user on the eaglecentral.ca forum who never resolved this issue but he wouldn't update his version of OSX (actually he ignored the suggestion every time it was raised, presumably he didn't like the idea). I suspect if he had then his problem may have been resolved.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on February 09, 2017, 08:51:57 am
I have Sierra as well (always update quickly) but the crashes started with an Eagle upgrade and persisted over several OS upgrades. My Macbook is from 2011 and has an AMD graphics card rather than Nvidia. In any case it's a common enough problem that Eagle support knew about the problem and had a workaround, so the fact that the bug exists is not under debate.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on February 09, 2017, 09:14:51 am
I have Sierra as well (always update quickly) but the crashes started with an Eagle upgrade and persisted over several OS upgrades. My Macbook is from 2011 and has an AMD graphics card rather than Nvidia. In any case it's a common enough problem that Eagle support knew about the problem and had a workaround, so the fact that the bug exists is not under debate.

Sorry, if you got the impression I was denying you had a legitimate problem, I was just pointing out that v7 does run fine on OSX for me and a lot of others I have spoken to, as you'd made a statement that implied that it was unreliable on that platform.

I'm wondering if it's people with AMD based mac's that have this issue? Apple haven't use AMD GPU's in their recent Mac lineup so maybe the video driver hasn't been updated in more recent versions of the OS so the problem persists? This is getting a bit off topic for this thread though :) Have you tried the freeware version of v8 to see if the problem still exists there?

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: K6TR on February 09, 2017, 12:53:21 pm
And you don't need to lecture me about Circuit Studio's support and development issues. I've spent plenty of time trying to work through CS's many flaws with my squawk list eventually getting escalated to a VP at Altium with essentially him admitting that the issues I was seeing were a ways off from ever being addressed. There is a problem. They know it. Newark knows it as well.
I'm curious what these problems are specifically. Sounds like they are either so deep in the architecture of the program that the fix would take a prohibitive amount of resources, or that they are intended to not attract too many users from their high-end package. I'm really curious about this, since with Altium Designer I have the impression that the real deal breakers (something that breaks your ability to get a board out) get addressed. They take a bit longer for this than they should, and these problems shouldn't slip through internal testings procedures, but once they know about them they work hard to fix them.

cx have you seen the comparison sheet of what features were cut out of CS that were originally designed in to AD ? 53 of 136 have been removed. Taking a meat ax to a functionally sound program is begging for system problems. I willing to bet there was quite an "intense" discussion within the ranks at Altium about how to approach the genesis of CS. Do we write a whole new program from the ground up or do we chop out Designer the features we don' t those users to have. In hindsight making a new program look and perform like AD is a far easier proposition than cleaning up the mess of a cannibalized program.

Of course there will always be guys like Spokane who will take the family sedan out to the local Test Track to joust with his buddies. When they wind it up to 10 Grand and it throws a rod they scratch their heads and wonder why.  |O
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 09, 2017, 01:58:42 pm
cx have you seen the comparison sheet of what features were cut out of CS that were originally designed in to AD ? 53 of 136 have been removed. Taking a meat ax to a functionally sound program is begging for system problems. I willing to bet there was quite an "intense" discussion within the ranks at Altium about how to approach the genesis of CS. Do we write a whole new program from the ground up or do we chop out Designer the features we don' t those users to have. In hindsight making a new program look and perform like AD is a far easier proposition than cleaning up the mess of a cannibalized program.
Hard to say whether starting at zero would have been better. It really depends on how modular and well maintained their code base is. However, as CS presumably gets less development resources than AD, it's still asking for trouble either way. What really disappoints me is the GUI choice (I hate it when I can't disable ribbons). But I guess that's another way to prevent existing AD users from migrating to the lower end. Not sure whether I would be happy with CS. I'll keep an eye on it and see whether they fix the bugs in the long run. At least they got the licensing model right.

Of course there will always be guys like Spokane who will take the family sedan out to the local Test Track to joust with his buddies. When they wind it up to 10 Grand and it throws a rod they scratch their heads and wonder why.  |O
I agree that CS is positioned below AD and it's unreasonable to expect it to be able to replace it. However, this should not compromise the stability of the program. But since they are occasionally struggling with stability problems with AD as well, having a second product with (presumably) fewer resources might show the same symptoms, but more pronounced.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 09, 2017, 05:18:01 pm
Of course there will always be guys like Spokane who will take the family sedan out to the local Test Track to joust with his buddies. When they wind it up to 10 Grand and it throws a rod they scratch their heads and wonder why.  |O

Rev limiters are for Nancy boy brits.  :box:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on February 09, 2017, 06:09:42 pm
Of course there will always be guys like Spokane who will take the family sedan out to the local Test Track to joust with his buddies. When they wind it up to 10 Grand and it throws a rod they scratch their heads and wonder why.  |O

Rev limiters are for Nancy boy brits.  :box:

Yeah, right! FIA Formula One driver's championships - UK:16, USA:2; adjust for population difference, UK 40: USA 1. Constructors championship's UK: 33, USA: 0.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on February 09, 2017, 07:06:02 pm
Yeah, right! FIA Formula One driver's championships - UK:16, USA:2; adjust for population difference, UK 40: USA 1. Constructors championship's UK: 33, USA: 0.

Plus they turn left *and* right, at varying speeds due to a variety of different corner radii.  :-DD
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jackenhack on February 13, 2017, 11:45:13 pm
...
Eagle, version 6.6 anyways, is much more stable......never had it crash......ever.
Eagle crashed on me once. But it wasn't fair play, the network drive became unavailable.

5 never crashed for me either, but 7...dang. I actually do have one complaint about Eagle and it's the crashes on OSX on version 7. It will crash over and over while panning or zooming, the official workaround from Eagle support is to resize the window before working. Unfortunately this behavior persisted over a number of minor point revisions without getting fixed, and will not be fixed on the 7.x line.

If you start Eagle 7 and it opens the latest project, just close the project, reopen it and resize windows. No crashes...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2017, 10:49:31 pm
Altium are finally capitalising on the Eagle situation:
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/)

I advised them to have a 50% off switch to Circuit Studio, but 40% off the full AD is still great, but of course still $5k!
So obviously won't appeal to a majority of users, but a good deal for those who were looking at a more serious higher end tool.
Problem with AD is that you don't get bug fixes without the subscription though, but at least they do have a perpetual license.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C46GF6bWcAAiuK8.jpg)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 19, 2017, 12:06:12 am
Awesome.  Gun, meet foot.  You two have a lot to talk about over at Autodesk HQ.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 12:10:22 am
It just occurred to me. If yoou wanted to buy Altium, just buy Eagle first and then pretend to switch  ;)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 02:15:57 am
$5K for Altium is a bargain next to perpetual payments for renting Eagle. It's mature enough that I'd expect most people could get at least 10 years out of it and likely even more. PCB design hasn't really changed a whole lot in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 19, 2017, 03:34:20 am
Altium are finally capitalising on the Eagle situation:
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/)

I advised them to have a 50% off switch to Circuit Studio, but 40% off the full AD is still great, but of course still $5k!
So obviously won't appeal to a majority of users, but a good deal for those who were looking at a more serious higher end tool.
Problem with AD is that you don't get bug fixes without the subscription though, but at least they do have a perpetual license.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C46GF6bWcAAiuK8.jpg)

So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkS on February 19, 2017, 05:41:55 am
So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer. 

Who are you? What is wrong with you? Your posts in this thread have been dismissive, defensive, offensive and flat out rude. You've made your position known and it is getting old. You are an Autodesk fanboy and a troll. Go away. Autodesk has a loaded and cocked gun pointed at their own head and Altium is capitalizing on that fact. Good for Altium. If Autodesk has even a few neurons firing in their collective brains, they'll understand the position they are in and listen to the people that made Eagle the success it has been. It is these people that will keep Eagle thriving or kill it. We have a right to be angry with Autodesk and your posts are nothing if not self-serving. Again, who are you? You've acted like you have a personal stake in this. Are you a shill or just a troll?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 19, 2017, 07:06:10 am
So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer. 

Who are you? What is wrong with you? Your posts in this thread have been dismissive, defensive, offensive and flat out rude. You've made your position known and it is getting old. You are an Autodesk fanboy and a troll. Go away. Autodesk has a loaded and cocked gun pointed at their own head and Altium is capitalizing on that fact. Good for Altium. If Autodesk has even a few neurons firing in their collective brains, they'll understand the position they are in and listen to the people that made Eagle the success it has been. It is these people that will keep Eagle thriving or kill it. We have a right to be angry with Autodesk and your posts are nothing if not self-serving. Again, who are you? You've acted like you have a personal stake in this. Are you a shill or just a troll?

Wow.  That's a lot of anger there. Good for you. That's why we have the internet: to misinterpret people's motives and write angry things at people we don't know.

The business model of freeware and hobby licenses as the major Eagle user group is the reason CADSoft was sold twice. It was a financial failure. Selling software into the maker market was NOT a success. If you find pointing this fundamental truth out rude, it's your issue.

I have engaged in basic discussion and debate, with the occasional poke when I see you guys go completely over the top with the Autodesk Hate Fest. If that's what this thread really is, just a place to crap on Autodesk, just rename the title and have at it.

Autodesk can drive me crazy. They know how to write some really crash-prone software that also fails to do periodic backups like it was set to do before it crashes. This just happened to me Monday. I'm fairly certain Jorge and co. could hear me swearing three states away. There, I said something bad about Autodesk.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkS on February 19, 2017, 07:21:34 am
Wow.  That's a lot of anger there. Good for you. That's why we have the internet: to misinterpret people's motives and write angry things at people we don't know.

Eagle is the closest that we have had to a "real" EDA program. Sure, the freeware version was horribly gimped, but the pro version was still within the price range of the average hobbyist, even if it required saving. I could see myself coming up with $1000 or there about. Given that all other professional EDA programs start at around $5000, Eagle, even with it's limitations, was a godsend. What Autodesk has done has restricted Eagle in a manor that has hurt a great many people. $65 a month sounds cheap, but that is in perpetuity and the internet requirement is a no-go. The benefits of Autodesk's pricing model hurts those that made Eagle what it is today. The people that you have been attacking, and if that is not your intent, I couldn't tell, are longtime Eagle users with time and money invested in the program. You seem to be oblivious to that fact. Leave them alone. They have a right to be upset.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 19, 2017, 08:03:52 am
So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer.

I think you are over-interpreting (mis-interpreting?) Altium's move. CircuitStudio was probably always meant as a vehicle for getting new users on board with the Altium products, with the ultimate goal of getting them to upgrade to Altium Designer if and when their needs grow. Designer must be where Altium earns the serious money, especially from users with support contracts.

Altium now see an opportunity to convert users of larger Eagle licenses straight to Designer, so that's what they try -- why take a detour via the less profitable CircuitStudio?

I expect that CircuitStudio will stay around, as an entry path to Altium's platform, quite independent of this move.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 08:04:22 am
At $65 a month you'd spend $5,000 after only about 6 years. I don't see why anyone would pay that much and not even get a perpetual license to show for it. I view Eagle as more or less on par with KiCad. It had a slight edge due to the large hobbyist support base but that's going to dwindle quickly. It has never been in the same class as Altium, OrCad or the other high end products and I don't see it ever breaking into that market.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkS on February 19, 2017, 08:07:32 am
I view Eagle as more or less on par with KiCad.

I agree totally. The only thing separating the two, IMO, is KiCAD's fractured library editor. Eagle's tightly integrated library editor was/is a strength of Eagle and KiCAD's developers cannot seem to grasp that fact for some reason.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: blueskull on February 19, 2017, 08:08:27 am
Altium is not free of bug. If you want bug fixes? Pay for subscription!
At current rate, they charge $1750/yr just for new features that only few people know how to use, and mostly, bug fixes.
Many software has a major-minor versioning concept, minor upgrades are for free, major ones are not free. For Altium, even most basic bug fixes (even those will make the current release unusable) aren't free.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 08:12:38 am
No software is free of bugs, nor will it ever be. Hopefully they're smart enough to only release a version that is good enough to do what it's supposed to do.

Updates are a relatively recent thing. For the first ~20 years I spent using computers, you bought software that came in a box with disks or CD(s) and that was that, you used it until a new version came out that offered something worth upgrading to. None of this constant updates, permanent-beta crap that fixes one thing and breaks something else.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: blueskull on February 19, 2017, 08:18:30 am
No software is free of bugs, nor will it ever be. Hopefully they're smart enough to only release a version that is good enough to do what it's supposed to do.

Updates are a relatively recent thing. For the first ~20 years I spent using computers, you bought software that came in a box with disks or CD(s) and that was that, you used it until a new version came out that offered something worth upgrading to. None of this constant updates, permanent-beta crap that fixes one thing and breaks something else.

I bet you never used a software that the new version will install upon old version, but not working.
It turns out AD15's configuration migration tool is not working properly, and it set a value to zero instead of one, which controls if a polygon pour will be updated upon modification.
What's worse, there was not a place to manually override it in GUI once migration is done at the time, and one has to manually correct it in migration window. Once OK is clicked, there was no way back.
I happily removed the new version until the next release.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 08:32:05 am
I've been burned so many times by new versions of software that these days I tend to treat it like BIOS updates, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  Except for security patches I rarely update anything anymore, I got my machines set up just the way I like and I just use them.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 08:55:03 am
Eagle is the closest that we have had to a "real" EDA program. Sure, the freeware version was horribly gimped, but the pro version was still within the price range of the average hobbyist, even if it required saving. I could see myself coming up with $1000 or there about. Given that all other professional EDA programs start at around $5000

Err, Circuit Studio is under $1000 and is basically Altium Designer in capability but without some of the productivity features.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 08:59:00 am
Designer must be where Altium earns the serious money, especially from users with support contracts.

It is:
http://www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/altium_annualreport_2016_web.pdf (http://www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/altium_annualreport_2016_web.pdf)

(http://i.imgur.com/UeGKVPH.png)

http://www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/altium_ltd_fy16_full_year_presentation_24_aug_2016.pdf (http://www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/altium_ltd_fy16_full_year_presentation_24_aug_2016.pdf)
(http://i.imgur.com/tfFNDlB.png)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 19, 2017, 06:00:03 pm
So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer.

I think you are over-interpreting (mis-interpreting?) Altium's move. CircuitStudio was probably always meant as a vehicle for getting new users on board with the Altium products, with the ultimate goal of getting them to upgrade to Altium Designer if and when their needs grow. Designer must be where Altium earns the serious money, especially from users with support contracts.

Altium now see an opportunity to convert users of larger Eagle licenses straight to Designer, so that's what they try -- why take a detour via the less profitable CircuitStudio?

I expect that CircuitStudio will stay around, as an entry path to Altium's platform, quite independent of this move.

I'm saying what I'm saying after speaking directly with Altium about Circuit Studio. Circuit Studio has virtually no user base.  I wasn't given a number, but the gist of it is, CS never took off.  At $1k a copy, it needs a very large user base just to be financially viable. So, if Altium saw CS as having a future, the logical choice would have been to do what Dave suggested and have Eagle users get a cheap upgrade to CS. The fact that Altium did not do this says that they are quite worried that Eagle will become good enough to cannibalize the portion of AD's user base who needs a professional product, but doesn't use many of the highly specialized features.

Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 19, 2017, 06:12:58 pm
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on February 19, 2017, 06:28:05 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/tfFNDlB.png)

That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 19, 2017, 06:46:23 pm
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.

So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 19, 2017, 07:12:45 pm
So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?

(Shrug) Cost of doing business. 

Historically, I've ponied up for each major version since 4.0.  I've already hacked around (http://www.ke5fx.com/lcopy.htm) the inadequacies of the subcircuit model in the older editions, so I probably wouldn't be looking to upgrade to version 8.   At least not right away.  But when they add features that I find useful, I'm fine with purchasing a new license.  I don't expect something for nothing.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 08:12:16 pm
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.

So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?

I'd pay $1700 up front before I'd pay $65 a month, assuming that $1700 gave me a product I could use for as long as I want. If 20 years from now I want to dust off an old PC and fire it up, I can do that. With rental software it's not even possible.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: janoc on February 19, 2017, 08:17:19 pm
That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 19, 2017, 09:54:57 pm
I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

If I recall correctly, Cadsoft had something similar by giving you a 50% discount on the next major version (but only if you did not skip a major version). I assume many professional users, and even a significant share of hobbyists, have used this offer.

So Cadsoft had some recurring income from their user base, in a mode where a user could decide at any time to stop paying and just keep using the product as-is -- not unlike the Altium Support &Maintenance contracts.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: cx05 on February 19, 2017, 10:32:01 pm
I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).
As far as I know, once you first pay for a perpetual AD license, you get subscription for one year. If you want to stay current, you continue your subscription and get a new perpetual license for all versions in the span of your subscription. This is cheaper than purchasing every major version (or maybe even cheaper as buying every 5th). So in a way, it is a service contract, but one you can let run out without impeding your access to old versions.

The point is: If Autodesk had offered a model where you fall back to a perpetual license once your subscription ends, few people would have been as upset as they are now. The problem is that they are forcing their users to go subscription only, even after they said that they wouldn't do this only six months ago.
I think nobody would have seriously complained if they had introduced a subscription that keeps your perpetual license current, as Altium does offer. In fact, this would have been very similar to the upgrade discounts of Cadsoft, except that you have to decide up front whether you want to save money when you upgrade by keeping a subscription.

While I prefer the "old" model of upgrade discounts, I still consider subscriptions in combination with a perpetual license a fair model, since you can use (and continue to use) any version within your subscription period. It's rather unlikely, even for Altium, not to have one decent version within a whole year, so chances are very high that when you buy a perpetual license or renew your subscription, you get one version you can rely on.
Not to mention the fact that Altium offers standalone licenses, which can be used and installed completely off-line (and you are even allowed to used them on two different computers, of course not concurrently).

It's all about having a choice and a fall-back plan. Altium and other vendors offer that, Autodesk doesn't.
I think it is short sighted to think you can force your customers into one model that doesn't suit their needs. It might work for a short time, but you lose customers and reputation in the long run.
Autodesk made that decision while being a big profitable company with lots of cash reserves. If they don't want to invest into their new product, why should I?

So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer.
Well, ECAD has some nasty problems to get right before you have a good product. I don't see why Autodesk as a competitor would be any worse for Altium than Cadence, Mentor, Zuken and a few dozen others. True, Altium currently doesn't offer the high-end packages Cadence and Mentor offer and has MCAD as their strong point, but they are also far ahead of the ECAD part of Eagle.
Given the list of deficits (see my post earlier (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eagle/the-autodesk-eagle-edition/msg1128037/#msg1128037)), I don't expect Eagle to reach the Altium level in the next few years. If Autodesk are sure about the success of their future versions, why don't they invest into their product? Why do they make their users "rent" the unfinished product and finance the development up front? And even if they offer a good product eventually, their unreliable manner of doing business has made them a no go for me. I wouldn't even consider their MCAD packages now, after all they did here.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 20, 2017, 12:43:23 am
Yes with any kind of productivity software a fallback is mandatory. Especially if used in a business, the cost of the software can end up being trivial compared to the investment in the content produced. I'm not about to invest my time creating libraries and PCB designs in a product that I can't access unless I continue to pay. Not gonna happen.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 20, 2017, 12:45:56 am
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on February 20, 2017, 01:24:40 am
That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee. There's no elephant in the room, or if there is, it's probably plush, 6" tall and called Maisie.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 20, 2017, 02:23:09 am
You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee.

In addition to the numbers I  posted above, it should be noted that the subscription licenses might include new perpetual licenses for that year, because you get a years subscription with a perpetual license.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: nazcalines on February 20, 2017, 04:10:48 am
I paid less than $1k last year for a perpetual Eagle license without autorouter. I plan on using it for the next 10 years. I'm going to literally save something like $7000 over this time period vs renting.

~$1k upfront was a bargain.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on February 20, 2017, 10:36:28 am
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think
Talking about CS, did that lottery already take place, I might have missed the drawing  :(
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/giveaway-altium-circuitstudio-licenses/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/giveaway-altium-circuitstudio-licenses/)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MagicSmoker on February 20, 2017, 12:16:53 pm
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think

Hmm... This is very interesting, indeed, and a clever promotion that gives me renewed respect for Altium.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: FrankBuss on February 20, 2017, 02:35:38 pm
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/ (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think

Isn't this the same as the free CircuitMaker, with the difference that all projects are open to the public in CircuitMaker?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: janoc on February 20, 2017, 03:08:53 pm
You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee. There's no elephant in the room, or if there is, it's probably plush, 6" tall and called Maisie.

No I didn't - I understand your point well. However, given that the subscription revenue is more than 50%, even if it is optional, the clients are obviously still taking it, finding it necessary - even though strictly speaking they don't have to. So they are still "renting" the software in a way.

My point is that you, IMO, cannot draw the conclusion you are trying to draw from this - it is not an apples to apples comparison with the way Eagle is sold.

Otherwise I agree with you - software that is licensed subscription only with no way to keep the current version as long as needed is simply a no-go and I am not sure what Autodesk was smoking here.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on February 20, 2017, 04:24:37 pm

Isn't this the same as the free CircuitMaker, with the difference that all projects are open to the public in CircuitMaker?

No CS is a cut down version of the real Altium designer - that actually works offline. There are some really stupid issues - like it cant open Altium Designer PCB files (but schematics works ok) - some features have been crippled without considering after-effects... But apart from features downhill creep it is the same as Altium Designer which CircuitMaker is absolutely not.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: plazma on February 21, 2017, 11:20:21 am
Nice.... 500$ is within my limit. Is there any annual bug fix update costs etc.?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on February 21, 2017, 03:01:31 pm
I've already mostly migrated to KiCad. I would bitch about how clunky some things are, but I realize it's only because I'm used to Eagle as a comparison.

As to the guy working to stir you all up, I'd suggested setting him to ignore, but it doesn't look like the forums offer that feature.  :-//
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 21, 2017, 06:28:31 pm
I've already mostly migrated to KiCad. I would bitch about how clunky some things are, but I realize it's only because I'm used to Eagle as a comparison.

As to the guy working to stir you all up, I'd suggested setting him to ignore, but it doesn't look like the forums offer that feature.  :-//

Why?  I think that $500 for a seat of CircuitStudio is a brilliant move on Altium's part, shows clear commitment to CS as a platform,  and at that price, makes learning CS and its quirks  worth doing - if Altium fixes some of the showstopper bugs.

There's nothing I like better than a good horse race.

CS is so close to Designer, that someone who wanted to go into PCB design could rightly claim proficiency in Designer. Not a bad thing to be able to stick on the resume for $500....

And as an agent for The Man, I try to present the logical, commercial side of the discussion occasionally. It's not meant to upset you. It's just business.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 21, 2017, 08:53:40 pm
I think that $500 for a seat of CircuitStudio is a brilliant move on Altium's part, shows clear commitment to CS as a platform, and at that price, makes learning CS and its quirks worth doing - if Altium fixes some of the showstopper bugs.
I agree.  Since I already have an EAGLE license, I'm going to spring the money for CS.  A year from now, I will have spent about the same as if I had signed up for an EAGLE subscription, but then I'll have *two* perpetual licenses...   8)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EBRAddict on February 22, 2017, 02:28:50 pm
That Circuit Studio offer was well timed.  ;D  I spent a half-hour on the trial putting together a board, it seemed pretty painless--provided I referenced the YouTube videos floating around to figure out the menu structure. I need to spend some more time investigating the available libraries and constructing my own devices. So far it looks promising for the hobbyist type work I do.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: plazma on February 22, 2017, 03:36:36 pm
Latest Eagle seem to hang easily if you switch between manual and follow-me routing.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on February 23, 2017, 02:19:17 pm
:words:

If you want to try having any sort of discussion, you might want to pick up from the challenges provided against you back on around page 4, especially since your own 'logical' arguments were dismantled back there. I'll even provide you a link: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eagle/the-autodesk-eagle-edition/msg1117579/#msg1117579 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eagle/the-autodesk-eagle-edition/msg1117579/#msg1117579)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 23, 2017, 09:26:32 pm
For those wishing to switch to CS, maintenance is $150/year. First year of updates included with license.

For those who haven't tried to renew an expired update subscription before, one is typically required to pay all unpaid years in order get new updates. Companies with multiple seats can sometimes negotiate this, but individuals have less/no leverage.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on February 23, 2017, 10:15:19 pm
For those wishing to switch to CS, maintenance is $150/year. First year of updates included with license.

For those who haven't tried to renew an expired update subscription before, one is typically required to pay all unpaid years in order get new updates. Companies with multiple seats can sometimes negotiate this, but individuals have less/no leverage.

As long as the older software can still be installed and used, that's all the "leverage" I'd ask for, personally.

Charging for unpaid years might cause some grumbling, but as long as the older version can still be used, it's ultimately no different from a traditional upgrade discount that diminishes over time. 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 23, 2017, 10:27:13 pm
No CS is a cut down version of the real Altium designer - that actually works offline. There are some really stupid issues - like it cant open Altium Designer PCB files (but schematics works ok) - some features have been crippled without considering after-effects... But apart from features downhill creep it is the same as Altium Designer which CircuitMaker is absolutely not.

Those "cripled" features though are mostly productivity enhancement things. Actual capability to design high end boards is the same.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on February 24, 2017, 03:08:47 am
For those wishing to switch to CS, maintenance is $150/year. First year of updates included with license.
Genius that I am, I figured out that, with the promo deal, it's about the same price for the first year of either CS or EAGLE, but then after that, with CS, I can pay maintenance *and* donate enough to CERN for 1/2 day of KiCad development and it will still be cheaper than EAGLE...   :box:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EEVblog on February 24, 2017, 04:54:36 am
I notice the Circuit Studio price has been lowered on Element 14. No need to have an eagle licence?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: LabSpokane on February 24, 2017, 05:53:54 am
For those wishing to switch to CS, maintenance is $150/year. First year of updates included with license.
Genius that I am, I figured out that, with the promo deal, it's about the same price for the first year of either CS or EAGLE, but then after that, with CS, I can pay maintenance *and* donate enough to CERN for 1/2 day of KiCad development and it will still be cheaper than EAGLE...   :box:

I was not trying to put down CS in any way there. People have budgets, and it's only fair for folks to know the facts to budget adequately. 

And donating to public projects like KiCad is a fantastic thing.  Good on you. :-+
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: 2N3055 on February 24, 2017, 07:22:19 am
I notice the Circuit Studio price has been lowered on Element 14. No need to have an eagle licence?

I'm looking at it right now.. It doesn't say anything about any prerequisites.. 395 GBP for full license, 115 GBP for one year of renewal of support...

That is very good price.. Downloaded trial... If I like it, it's no brainer at that price...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: FrankT on February 24, 2017, 07:51:13 am
I notice the Circuit Studio price has been lowered on Element 14. No need to have an eagle licence?

That figures.  A couple of week after I buy a license, they halve the price.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on February 25, 2017, 11:27:19 pm
I notice the Circuit Studio price has been lowered on Element 14. No need to have an eagle licence?

That figures.  A couple of week after I buy a license, they halve the price.

Worse things can happen! You might buy a permanent license for a piece of CAD software and then a few weeks later discover that you will receive no bugfixes or updates unless you "upgrade" to an internet-tied subscription model  :clap:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 08, 2017, 09:21:21 pm
Sam Sattel, who worked at Altium from 2000 until September of 2016, now works for Autodesk. Here's an article he wrote that compares Eagle's new licensing to the airline industry, and says that all other PCB CAD companies are now playing second fiddle to Eagle and will be stuck playing catch-up for many years to come: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/ (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/)

It's a long article that will be a favorite of anyone who loves the word "disruptive."
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 08, 2017, 09:50:36 pm
Sam Sattel, who worked at Altium from 2000 until September of 2016, now works for Autodesk. Here's an article he wrote that compares Eagle's new licensing to the airline industry, and says that all other PCB CAD companies are now playing second fiddle to Eagle and will be stuck playing catch-up for many years to come: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/ (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/)

It's a long article that will be a favorite of anyone who loves the word "disruptive."

Quite a bit of spin here.  What they are saying, pertinent to this thread, is that their price point for EDA software is free relative to the cost of an engineer.  Disruptive in the professional market.   They dismiss a thousand bucks as nothing.  Which is true when as a corporation you are probably paying $40k-$300k to put an engineer in a seat (depending on where in the world you are and including all overhead costs). 

Totally ignores other low cost EDA, and is selectively blind about cross platform KiCAD.  Ignores the fact that $1000/year is not effectively free to a great many potential users of EDA software.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 08, 2017, 10:09:06 pm
I think they're also talking about the free trial version of Eagle (it was always a trial, you could not use it for commercial purposes).

Pretty amusing to me how Sam talks about "we did this, we did that, our mission setting out" about Eagle's entire 30-year history, when he was working for Altium the whole time and didn't even join Eagle's team at Autodesk until September of last year. Makes me wonder how the original Eagle team feels about him speaking for them like that. Autodesk bought Eagle as it is today, they didn't buy the rights to the historical narrative.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 08, 2017, 10:17:31 pm
Quite a bit of spin here.  What they are saying, pertinent to this thread, is that their price point for EDA software is free relative to the cost of an engineer.  Disruptive in the professional market.   They dismiss a thousand bucks as nothing.  Which is true when as a corporation you are probably paying $40k-$300k to put an engineer in a seat (depending on where in the world you are and including all overhead costs). 

Totally ignores other low cost EDA, and is selectively blind about cross platform KiCAD.  Ignores the fact that $1000/year is not effectively free to a great many potential users of EDA software.

Ironically that emphasizes the fact that the value of the content you have paid an engineer to create with the tool dwarfs the cost of the tool, hence it makes sense to purchase a perpetual licensed tool even if the cost is substantially higher because that guarantees you perpetual access to your expensive content.

I'm also not sure where they're getting that other products are going to be playing catch up. Eagle always has been and likely always will be a second tier product. It is popular almost entirely due to its large hobbyist user base with some penetration into small companies. If they wanted a top end EDA they purchased the wrong name.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Tandy on March 08, 2017, 11:19:29 pm
Meanwhile in the delusional world of AutoDesk modern computers are still playing catchup with the Commodore 64.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: gildasd on March 08, 2017, 11:25:47 pm
I HATE anything cloud/subscription based.
It is a definitive NO BUY for me. I don't care, I'll even learn a new program to avoid this.
Mostly because I want to be able to open that important file from 10 years ago even if the company went under 2 years ago and took the cloud servers down with it.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on March 09, 2017, 01:37:59 am
Sam Sattel, who worked at Altium from 2000 until September of 2016, now works for Autodesk. Here's an article he wrote that compares Eagle's new licensing to the airline industry, and says that all other PCB CAD companies are now playing second fiddle to Eagle and will be stuck playing catch-up for many years to come: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/ (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/)
Biggest piece of marketing drivel I've read in quite some time.

Autodesk can suck it.  I'll vote with my dollars.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on March 09, 2017, 06:07:36 am
Wow.  That blog post is an impressive exercise in "trying too hard."
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on March 09, 2017, 07:41:00 am
Making a semi-professional EDA tool more expensive (via the subscription model) doesn't make it a 1st class tool over night disrupting the whole EDA industry. What a marketing nonsense! Autodesk don't get it, they've crashed Eagle badly.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: gildasd on March 09, 2017, 08:20:48 am
At least if they offered a "buy" option next to the subscription, giving consumers choice and not alienating their current client base..
But the mere thought of that would blow an artery in their MBA corrupted minds.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Zbig on March 09, 2017, 10:51:37 am
Biggest piece of marketing drivel I've read in quite some time.

Jeez, what were they smoking? FR4?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 09, 2017, 10:56:57 am
I'm also not sure where they're getting that other products are going to be playing catch up.

Playing catch up in the race to the bottom perhaps?  >:D
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on March 09, 2017, 05:08:45 pm
At least if they offered a "buy" option next to the subscription, giving consumers choice and not alienating their current client base..
But the mere thought of that would blow an artery in their MBA corrupted minds.

I don't think the MBA minds are corrupted. I believe they are looking at this subscription model as the only financially viable way to deal with it. The purchase model is likely viewed as too unstable and unpredictable so it makes no business sense to pander to the upset customers (like me) that will buy a license and never update it for many years - if ever. The business planners are saying that the buy model is a near guaranteed fail, and the subscription model is at least a better option even with the push-back from existing customers.

I have a paid license that is about 3 years old at $575, USD. That money was burned at CAD Soft in mere minutes or possibly seconds. Not sure how big the team is over there, but it is safe to say they have to sell a LOT of $575 products to just break even on development.

I can fully understand the desire to go subscription and I don't think it is a greedy money grabbing decision either. To me, it seems like a desperate reach for a glimmer of hope in a market that seems very difficult to survive in. The product is a barely professional tool that requires a lot of money to improve. If they improve it, they may still find that very few want to actually pay much for it. I have my sights set on Altium and the best thing Autodesk/Eagle is doing is getting Altium to offer better pricing.

If Eagle looked like it was going to get more than a fresh coat of paint - I would reconsider. I don't see it going in that direction, though. If it was a substantially better tool than today and offered a perpetual license that was still lower than Altium.....maybe. But a pseudo-pro tool as a subscription? Nope.

After a demo with Altium - the extra money will probably be made up very quickly for my small operation.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: H.O on March 09, 2017, 07:14:28 pm
I've already voted with my money, I've got a CircuitStudio license comming - whenever THEY (Farnell & Altium) get THEIR shit together.

Perhaps it's one of my more expensive knee-jerk reactions and one I might regret down the road but that's how strongly I feel about the subscription model. It's not so much the fact thay it costs x amount of cash each month (ah, crap, it's that too) but rather that I don't have any guarantees how much it'll cost "next month" (or next year).

And this month the board I'm working on may "fit" EAGLE Standard for $15/month which I may be OK with but who says Autodesk won't change their mind again and next month EAGLE Standard no longer supports the 160mm² area that I need, now I have to use Premium (or some other interim version they come up with) if I want to keep working on my board.

Oh, but if that happens you don't have to "update" to that new, limited, version of EAGLE standard, just stick with the version you have I hear you say. Well, who says I don't have to? Who says my version won't just stop working? Autodesk? The same people who said they won't go to a subscription based model? "Due to changes in the authentication process of the online subscription licenses you have to update to v8.3.x in order for the license to be able to be validated. Versions prior to v8.3.x will stop working when your current subscription period runs out. At the same time the price for your version has increased to $25/month.

I absolutely despise software on subscription. Autodesk may do whatever magic things they want with EAGLE they're not getting my money.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 09, 2017, 07:47:12 pm
At least if they offered a "buy" option next to the subscription, giving consumers choice and not alienating their current client base..
But the mere thought of that would blow an artery in their MBA corrupted minds.

I don't think the MBA minds are corrupted. I believe they are looking at this subscription model as the only financially viable way to deal with it. The purchase model is likely viewed as too unstable and unpredictable so it makes no business sense to pander to the upset customers (like me) that will buy a license and never update it for many years - if ever. The business planners are saying that the buy model is a near guaranteed fail, and the subscription model is at least a better option even with the push-back from existing customers.

I have a paid license that is about 3 years old at $575, USD. That money was burned at CAD Soft in mere minutes or possibly seconds. Not sure how big the team is over there, but it is safe to say they have to sell a LOT of $575 products to just break even on development.

I can fully understand the desire to go subscription and I don't think it is a greedy money grabbing decision either. To me, it seems like a desperate reach for a glimmer of hope in a market that seems very difficult to survive in. The product is a barely professional tool that requires a lot of money to improve. If they improve it, they may still find that very few want to actually pay much for it. I have my sights set on Altium and the best thing Autodesk/Eagle is doing is getting Altium to offer better pricing.

If Eagle looked like it was going to get more than a fresh coat of paint - I would reconsider. I don't see it going in that direction, though. If it was a substantially better tool than today and offered a perpetual license that was still lower than Altium.....maybe. But a pseudo-pro tool as a subscription? Nope.

After a demo with Altium - the extra money will probably be made up very quickly for my small operation.

And that's what should worry Eagle users. IF there was a significant upgrade in the near future, they probably would have held off the subscription model. After all, why would you switch your reluctant customer base to an unwanted subscription model, losing countless customers and goodwill in the process, and then hand them a nicely upgraded Eagle for no additional charge? No, if a significant upgrade was in the cards they would have used that as leverage. To me, this smacks of Autodesk deciding not to invest in Eagle significantly unless they can demonstrate enough reliable revenue coming from subscribers to the existing version.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Agent86 on March 09, 2017, 08:25:59 pm
Sam Sattel, who worked at Altium from 2000 until September of 2016, now works for Autodesk. Here's an article he wrote that compares Eagle's new licensing to the airline industry, and says that all other PCB CAD companies are now playing second fiddle to Eagle and will be stuck playing catch-up for many years to come: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/ (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/)

It's a long article that will be a favorite of anyone who loves the word "disruptive."
Wow, you're not kidding, that guy is proud of that word!

Wonder how long it will be before they delete the comment on that blog.  It says:
Quote
dougR6AS9 says:
March 9, 2017 at 12:14 pm
Nice spin, Sam, hope you got a bonus for this article! Unfortunately, the main “disruption” has been between Autodesk and long-term Cadsoft EAGLE users.

So anyway, if it’s free forever, where can I download a copy?

And a minor clarification: KiCad is also cross-platform.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ehughes on March 09, 2017, 08:41:20 pm
 10k for a fully featured tool (Altium ,etc) is low compared to the cost of an engineer.

It is all spin at this point.   Eagle is not in the "mid level" category as it is not on the RADAR of the companies they are referring to.     It is a low end tool.   It is good for them to talk smack but they need a tool to back it up with. Eagle is not that tool!   It is still glorified mspaint.exe with a gerber generator.

I still think that end game is they will retain the name and the file format.   Eagle as it is today will have to die to achieve their sales and marketing goals.



 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 09, 2017, 09:33:25 pm
I just don't see it happening, Altium, OrCad and a few others have the high end market pretty much locked up, trying to break into that is going to be like trying to break into the smartphone market. There just isn't room for another major player.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 09, 2017, 10:53:42 pm
I just don't see it happening, Altium, OrCad and a few others have the high end market pretty much locked up, trying to break into that is going to be like trying to break into the smartphone market. There just isn't room for another major player.
Unless that player had something really special to offer, and not just a rehash of a very dated package.
From what I've seen of it, I imagine they are taking business from Solidworks and others with Fusion360, with a low entry cost. To do the same in the ( much smaller) PCB market they'd only have stood a chance by starting from scratch with the cash they spent on Eagle.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on March 09, 2017, 11:33:33 pm
My Altium rep called again today to remind me they are offering Designer for $6k including the 2-day class. I don't want to spend the $$ for a few more months though.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: janoc on March 10, 2017, 03:54:36 pm
Unless that player had something really special to offer, and not just a rehash of a very dated package.
From what I've seen of it, I imagine they are taking business from Solidworks and others with Fusion360, with a low entry cost. To do the same in the ( much smaller) PCB market they'd only have stood a chance by starting from scratch with the cash they spent on Eagle.

Probably not even that. I am using Fusion360 for my private stuff and we have bought a subscription at work for doing the occasional CAD work we need, but Fusion360 has all the same issues as Eagle now - online only saving (but you can export/backup your document), constantly changing so you are a guinea pig/beta tester, no way to have a perpetual license nor a stable version.

That is unlikely to be a competition to Solidworks, more like capturing the entry level market that hasn't been served before by a similarly capable tool - all those "makers", 3D printer users, hobbyists and such that were either using FreeCAD or pirated/student versions of Solidworks or some other software. Fusion actually includes features explicitly targeting these users, like CAM export for 3D printers and manufacturing services. And for Autodesk it is a good platform for betatesting ideas for their flagship products, such as Inventor or AutoCAD.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on March 10, 2017, 06:26:14 pm
Eagle [...] is still glorified mspaint.exe with a gerber generator.

Come on! All of us are critical enough of Eagle, and well aware of its limitations. But that absurd statement will cost you some credibility points.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: hammy on March 10, 2017, 06:51:42 pm
Years ago, in 1997, there was a book "PCB Design Using AutoCAD" (ISBN: 9780080514833). Wasn't there also an extension for electrical schematics?
Found it .. still alive ... here we are: http://www.autodesk.de/products/autocad-electrical/overview (http://www.autodesk.de/products/autocad-electrical/overview)

Maybe they develop now the "eagle extension" for Autocad and customers can upgrade.  :-//

Time will tell.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 10, 2017, 07:07:23 pm
Microsoft was eager to join the smartphone revolution for a long time but look at how well that worked out. It's very difficult to break into a market that already is dominated by multiple mature players. Eagle had a niche in the hobbyist/prosumer/very small company arena but they have thrown that under the bus chasing bigger fish that have already been caught.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on March 10, 2017, 10:00:39 pm
Well. It has been about 17 years since I've read something from an industry professional who believes that money is in endless supply and therefore almost any cost is actually no cost.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on March 12, 2017, 02:28:24 pm
Wow.  That blog post is an impressive exercise in "trying too hard."

Yeah, I think he was trying to convince himself more than the readers.

Sam talks about the "Southwest Airlines business model", which encompasses a number of things (single airplane type, no hubs, no fees) but can be simplified as "low cost". But Autodesk seem to be taking the opposite approach of Southwest, rather than a simple one-off fee, they seem to be going the "add on fees" route which overall increase total cost to the customer.

Southwest are resisting pressure from shareholders and analysts to start adding fees. Southwest management insist that putting customers before shareholders is their strategy. Autodesk can say what they like, but their actions speak louder.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 12, 2017, 05:57:26 pm


Yeah, I think he was trying to convince himself more than the readers.

Sam talks about the "Southwest Airlines business model", which encompasses a number of things (single airplane type, no hubs, no fees) but can be simplified as "low cost". But Autodesk seem to be taking the opposite approach of Southwest, rather than a simple one-off fee, they seem to be going the "add on fees" route which overall increase total cost to the customer.

Southwest are resisting pressure from shareholders and analysts to start adding fees. Southwest management insist that putting customers before shareholders is their strategy. Autodesk can say what they like, but their actions speak louder.

I don't fly often but when I do fly, Southwest is one of two choices I use almost exclusively. I can't speak for everyone, but if they start adding fees I will stop flying Southwest. I don't need the absolute lowest price, but I hate being nickel & dimed and playing games with fees and hidden costs.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 12, 2017, 06:57:55 pm
Airline travel was already an ephemeral service, too. You aren't buying a product that generates IP that you need to be able to access and use for an unspecified amount of time later.

If Southwest followed the Autodesk model, they'd go out of business immediately. Throwing people out of the plane mid-flight if they're late paying their monthly air travel fee isn't popular with customers.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: H.O on March 13, 2017, 06:31:12 am
Quote
If Southwest followed the Autodesk model, they'd go out of business immediately. Throwing people out of the plane mid-flight if they're late paying their monthly air travel fee isn't popular with customers.
Or giving the travelers their checked in baggage back with a padlock on it. Saying, here's a list of YOUR items in YOUR bag and you're free to view this list as much as you want but if you want to open the bag and access your items you have to pay - and if you don't keep on paying we're coming back with that lock.

Yeah, Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cervisia on March 14, 2017, 02:59:38 pm
Quote
Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.
… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897  :palm:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: daqq on March 14, 2017, 03:22:57 pm
I've read the article... and I finally get to use this quote:

That guys' so full of shit it's a wonder his eyes don't turn brown. 💩
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 14, 2017, 06:54:18 pm
Quote
Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.
… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897  :palm:

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.

In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on March 14, 2017, 07:13:30 pm
I expect Jorge Garcia here any moment to do some damage control...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on March 14, 2017, 07:14:19 pm
Hopefully Autodesk's management starts to understand why the subscription model forces a lot of customers to look for another EDA package. They've screwed up Eagle completely and lost all their credibility. A :palm:^2 for that!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 14, 2017, 07:52:47 pm
Their credibility was vaporized in one fell swoop when they lied about their intentions and said subscription model was not being considered, that was only a few months before they rolled out the subscription only thing. You can't tell me they didn't know full well that's what the plan was back before they said it wasn't.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 14, 2017, 08:06:09 pm
Someone should check if anyone at Autodesk recently bought a lot of Altium stock, because this debacle has been a fantastic guerilla marketing scheme for CircuitStudio.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on March 14, 2017, 08:12:07 pm
Quote
Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.
… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897 (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897)  :palm:

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.

In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.
My reading of the EULA is pretty clear that Autodesk is not liable for anything more than the purchase price of the license (secs. 5 and 7, US version):

  http://www.autodesk.com/company/legal-notices-trademarks/software-license-agreements (http://www.autodesk.com/company/legal-notices-trademarks/software-license-agreements)

Plus sec. 6 which hints at "you knew what you were getting into".

Autodesk has a market cap of $18B and an annual revenue of $2B.  Good luck having your company lawyer argue against Autodesk's army of lawyers.  And if your company already has an army of lawyers, you're likely already using a big-time package and not Eagle.  It's a no-win scenario for small companies.

Cadsoft Eagle is dead.  Long live Eagle 7.7.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 08:23:23 pm
Yawn...

I still dislike Autodesk's move to the subscription model as much as I disliked it when it was announced. And yes, I also fully intend to stick with my permanent 7.x license, and have a close look at the alternatives.

But it seems that we have been going round in circles for weeks in this thread, without adding anything new to the discussion. Is this just to make sure that the thread stays at the top of the Eagle forum, so sporadic visitors don't overlook it and become aware of Autodesk's appaling move? Maybe one of the moderators could make this thread sticky and pin it to the top of the list, to save us the bother of permanent repetitions?  ;)

Or maybe this is our self-help and support group, and we still need to talk to cope with the pain...  :P
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 14, 2017, 09:02:59 pm
Someone should check if anyone at Autodesk recently bought a lot of Altium stock, because this debacle has been a fantastic guerilla marketing scheme for CircuitStudio.

Very interesting thought.


I have no idea, just asking questions here  ^-^

Nobody likes signing same-industry non-compete clauses in employment contracts, but holy heck this is precisely why companies have them. Although in this case Altium would be poorly served to enforce it  8)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on March 14, 2017, 09:24:09 pm
Quote
2.1.3 Territory. Except as otherwise authorized in writing by Autodesk, the licenses granted in this Agreement are granted only for the Territory. Nothing in this Agreement permits Licensee (including, without limitation, Licensee’s Personnel, if any) to Install or Access the Licensed Materials outside of the Territory.

Quote
37 “Territory” (a) means the country, countries or jurisdiction(s) specified in the License Identification, or (b) if there is no such License Identification, or no country or jurisdiction is specified in the License Identification, means the country in which Licensee acquires a license to the Autodesk Materials. If the License Identification specifies, or Licensee acquires the Autodesk Materials in, a member country of the European Union or the European Free Trade Association, Territory means all the countries of the European Union and the European Free Trade Association.

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

What have they been smoking? I can't install it on a laptop and use it abroad?


Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 14, 2017, 09:32:01 pm
They'll say something like "Oh, that's just our rascally little lawyers putting things in contracts nobody really reads, don't worry about it."

I notice that Eagle reps repeatedly state that "Autodesk Eagle" (specifically not calling it Eagle 8 ) is not an "upgrade" from Eagle 7, therefore the part of the Autodesk contract that says your old license is revoked and you must destroy your old versions of Eagle upon upgrading to the new version...doesn't apply. So don't worry about that part of the contract, it's a new product not an upgrade.

Yet my Eagle 7 just told me a couple days ago that I'm now using an outdated version of Eagle, an upgrade to Version 8 is available.

Can't trust anything they say about such matters. Jorge and Ed will be awesome as always about tech support but everyone else is being misleading about all other aspect of this.

Matt cannot seriously believe that we'd accept the explanation that Autodesk made a 30 million dollar purchase without knowing EXACTLY what the roadmap was for at least the year following the purchase. It's out of the question that they didn't know they were going to make it subscription-based from the very beginning.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 14, 2017, 09:35:29 pm
Quote
Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.
… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897 (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897)  :palm:

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.

In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.
My reading of the EULA is pretty clear that Autodesk is not liable for anything more than the purchase price of the license (secs. 5 and 7, US version):

  http://www.autodesk.com/company/legal-notices-trademarks/software-license-agreements (http://www.autodesk.com/company/legal-notices-trademarks/software-license-agreements)

Plus sec. 6 which hints at "you knew what you were getting into".

Autodesk has a market cap of $18B and an annual revenue of $2B.  Good luck having your company lawyer argue against Autodesk's army of lawyers.  And if your company already has an army of lawyers, you're likely already using a big-time package and not Eagle.  It's a no-win scenario for small companies.

Cadsoft Eagle is dead.  Long live Eagle 7.7.

Lawyers put a lot of rubbish in end user contracts knowing that it won't survive an actual battle in court, that's one of the reasons for severability clauses. Someone like you comes along, looks at it, and gives in; a lawyer looks at it and says "that won't last five minutes in front of a judge" and ploughs on.

You don't deploy lawyers because you plan to win a court case; deploying lawyers is the commercially acceptable form of twisting a man's arm behind his back and asking him if he likes hospital food. You deploy the lawyers to get something done. It's a shot across the bows - "Get this fixed or you're in trouble". 

In my business life I've resorted to calling the lawyers in three times, we never went to court and I got what I wanted every time; in every case the other company was bigger than mine. This is why you keep one of the big 'name' firms on a retainer, even when you're a relatively small company, a single phone call or letter from the lawyer will often get the job done and not even dent your retainer. You may even be sabre rattling, but if the other guy gives in...
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: PCB.Wiz on March 15, 2017, 12:09:45 am
Quote
2.1.3 Territory. Except as otherwise authorized in writing by Autodesk, the licenses granted in this Agreement are granted only for the Territory. Nothing in this Agreement permits Licensee (including, without limitation, Licensee’s Personnel, if any) to Install or Access the Licensed Materials outside of the Territory.

Quote
37 “Territory” (a) means the country, countries or jurisdiction(s) specified in the License Identification, or (b) if there is no such License Identification, or no country or jurisdiction is specified in the License Identification, means the country in which Licensee acquires a license to the Autodesk Materials. If the License Identification specifies, or Licensee acquires the Autodesk Materials in, a member country of the European Union or the European Free Trade Association, Territory means all the countries of the European Union and the European Free Trade Association.

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html (http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html)

What have they been smoking? I can't install it on a laptop and use it abroad?

Many of the larger USA corporates have some truly bizarre license agreements, which try to constrain your 'location'.
They really are so far out of touch with the mobility of many designers, they are stuck back in the 'Enterprise' sales model mindsets.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: PCB.Wiz on March 15, 2017, 12:11:27 am
In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.
Yup, and you would be already using another package.

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.
When things fail this badly, one really has to wonder about the corporate risk assessments.
A Chinese or Russian hacker can so easily knee-cap a USA corporate, that it is frankly laughable.

If I was an Autodesk stockholder, I'd asking at the next shareholder meeting, why they take such school-boy risks with stockholder value, by exposing the company goodwill to internet hacking ?
Any risk-averse fund manager would divest this stock.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: FrankBuss on March 15, 2017, 12:56:21 am
If I was an Autodesk stockholder, I'd asking at the next shareholder meeting, why they take such school-boy risks with stockholder value, by exposing the company goodwill to internet hacking ?
Any risk-averse fund manager would divest this stock.

Eagle is a footnote in their financial report. Autodesk makes more than $2 billion profit per year and they bought CadSoft for $25 million (http://www.pcdandf.com/pcdesign/index.php/news-itemid-fix/10964-autodesk-acquires-eagle-from-cadsoft), so about 1%. It could go down the drain and they won't care much about it, but just buy Altium next.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 15, 2017, 03:28:46 am
If I was an Autodesk stockholder, I'd asking at the next shareholder meeting, why they take such school-boy risks with stockholder value, by exposing the company goodwill to internet hacking ?
Any risk-averse fund manager would divest this stock.

Eagle is a footnote in their financial report. Autodesk makes more than $2 billion profit per year and they bought CadSoft for $25 million (http://www.pcdandf.com/pcdesign/index.php/news-itemid-fix/10964-autodesk-acquires-eagle-from-cadsoft), so about 1%. It could go down the drain and they won't care much about it, but just buy Altium next.

Think more about reputational risk than strict financial liability. Company stocks can take a severe hit, out of proportion to any actual liabilities, when bad press appears. In almost every publicly quoted company, C suite executives spend most of their time worrying about stock prices, followed by their golf handicap and finally might devote some time to the actual business that they are in.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on March 15, 2017, 02:25:19 pm
If I was an Autodesk stockholder, I'd asking at the next shareholder meeting, why they take such school-boy risks with stockholder value, by exposing the company goodwill to internet hacking ?
Any risk-averse fund manager would divest this stock.

Eagle is a footnote in their financial report. Autodesk makes more than $2 billion profit per year and they bought CadSoft for $25 million (http://www.pcdandf.com/pcdesign/index.php/news-itemid-fix/10964-autodesk-acquires-eagle-from-cadsoft), so about 1%. It could go down the drain and they won't care much about it, but just buy Altium next.

No AutoDesk has REVENUE of US$ 2bl +/- per year (best year so far 2.5bl) :)

Net income for FY2016 was minus 330ml. Net income last 4 quarters have been negative. 2015 had a sales growth - probably everybody buying permanent licenses - 2016 and 2017 sales are down.

2017 data is as far as I can tell from non-audited accounts based on the 4 quarterly reports. So that is why I used the audited 2016 results even if the 2017 is more or less available.

http://quotes.wsj.com/ADSK/financials/annual/income-statement (http://quotes.wsj.com/ADSK/financials/annual/income-statement)

I'm not saying AutoDesk is in a bad state - but based on their financial performance and their subscription model - if we get another market crash - some of the first stocks I'll short will be Adobe and AutoDesk as they will loose a lot of revenue fast due to their subscription models.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Deridex on March 15, 2017, 04:42:09 pm
Eagle always had 2 major advantages in my sight:
- It just worked. Always.
- It was quite cheap

Sadly it seems like Autodesk removed both advantages. Reading about the 8.02 version on the autodesk forums was scary.
If Autodesk gets the stability back, offers buy licences and improves eagles abilities in a huge way, then i might take a look at it again.
But so far i don't see anyy reason at all to upgrade to a actual version. :-//

Also i feel realy sorry for Jorge Garcia. He is the one that has to try to calm down all the people that are quite angry, because of the changes.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 15, 2017, 04:49:57 pm
I'm not saying AutoDesk is in a bad state - but based on their financial performance and their subscription model - if we get another market crash - some of the first stocks I'll short will be Adobe and AutoDesk as they will loose a lot of revenue fast due to their subscription models.

This is the thing I don't understand about all these people moving exclusively to subscription style models. I understand that they want a recurring revenue source. What I don't understand is their willingness to make themselves sensitive to short term economic conditions. Unlike selling software outright, where the marginal cost of sales can approach zero, a subscription model requires you to keep spending on the additional services that back-end these subscriptions as long as you have *any* outstanding subscribers and even if you're achieving zero sales.

When you budget for new outright sales you always have a knowledge that they are uncertain, that it is possible that you'll have a really bad month, and you make plans accordingly. If, on the other hand, you have a recurring revenue stream you tend to rely on it, and don't plan for the eventuality that 30% of it might disappear from next month's budget.

Any software rental that can be stopped and started at will by customers will be one of the first things to go when customers feel the need to 'tighten their purse strings' in the face of an economic downturn. I can mentally hear an accountant saying "Can we do without X for three months?" and if the answer sounds anything like 'yes' cutting funding for that for the next three months. Note that this is very different from annual maintenance fees which, because of their longer cycle, give you more time to spot a trend and respond to it. It's one thing to say "we might find ourselves a bit short in three months" and another entirely to say "1/3 of our customers disappeared this month".

So yes, I think that you're right that the next time we see any sharp, general, economic downturn that we may see some notable failures from companies that have opted to go wholesale for subscription style software services.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 05:08:37 pm
[...] if we get another market crash - some of the first stocks I'll short will be Adobe and AutoDesk as they will loose a lot of revenue fast due to their subscription models.

That one I don't understand. If they were still selling permanent licenses, they would take a disproportionate hit if the economy turns bad -- because many of their customers will postpone buying the next upgrade, or investing in an entirely new software platform, when money is tight.

Subscription income should actually make them more resilient in this respect: Customers will have to continue paying their subscription fees if they want to stay productive. Subscription fees are operating expenses, not investments, and hence more likely to remain steady. Good for Autodesk (and presumably one of their reasons for the transition to subscriptions...)

Or did I misunderstand your point here?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MagicSmoker on March 15, 2017, 05:09:50 pm
This is the thing I don't understand about all these people moving exclusively to subscription style models. I understand that they want a recurring revenue source. What I don't understand is their willingness to make themselves sensitive to short term economic conditions. Unlike selling software outright, where the marginal cost of sales can approach zero, a subscription model requires you to keep spending on the additional services that back-end these subscriptions as long as you have *any* outstanding subscribers and even if you're achieving zero sales. ...

This is a very intriguing point! It might explain, for example, how Autodesk managed to bring in over $2B in revenue last year yet still failed to make a profit!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on March 15, 2017, 08:46:24 pm
Yawn...

I still dislike Autodesk's move to the subscription model as much as I disliked it when it was announced. And yes, I also fully intend to stick with my permanent 7.x license, and have a close look at the alternatives.

But it seems that we have been going round in circles for weeks in this thread, without adding anything new to the discussion. Is this just to make sure that the thread stays at the top of the Eagle forum, so sporadic visitors don't overlook it and become aware of Autodesk's appaling move? Maybe one of the moderators could make this thread sticky and pin it to the top of the list, to save us the bother of permanent repetitions?  ;)

Or maybe this is our self-help and support group, and we still need to talk to cope with the pain...  :P

I think (i.e. my opinion is) that this keeps going because we're getting to watch a multi-car pileup in progress. From the outset, this was a bad idea. Some corporate tool who speaks only in buzzwords and non-objective platitudes pushed an idea that was incompatible with the market the acquisition was placed in. So like watching a tsunami from atop a mountain as it approaches, then crashes into, a village, we're getting to watch the fall out be exactly what we said it would be. I think most of the Eagle users have come up with their solution to moving forward, so now we're just watching the fallout.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on March 15, 2017, 09:48:32 pm
Yeah, there's the trainwreck aspect, and people in general, myself included like to complain about stuff. Feels good to complain about the world, even if it's something I can't do anything about. Engineers are good at complaining.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: kaz911 on March 16, 2017, 08:12:08 am
[...] if we get another market crash - some of the first stocks I'll short will be Adobe and AutoDesk as they will loose a lot of revenue fast due to their subscription models.

That one I don't understand. If they were still selling permanent licenses, they would take a disproportionate hit if the economy turns bad -- because many of their customers will postpone buying the next upgrade, or investing in an entirely new software platform, when money is tight.

Subscription income should actually make them more resilient in this respect: Customers will have to continue paying their subscription fees if they want to stay productive. Subscription fees are operating expenses, not investments, and hence more likely to remain steady. Good for Autodesk (and presumably one of their reasons for the transition to subscriptions...)

Or did I misunderstand your point here?

No - before if you had a license that expired - it would cost you dearly to "come back" in the upgrade/maintenance fold. So if you stopped updating at v2012 - to update to v2015 you would have to pay extra for the time missed. Now you just stop - and when you want to restart - you just subscribe again. So it is a no-brainer to stop subscriptions. Any financial departments will focus on expensive subscriptions in a downturn. If only downside is " loss of access " at end of period - that is the first place they will insist on saving. A big company might now cut all subscriptions - but maybe take 75% offline for a while.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: flukester on March 16, 2017, 01:38:51 pm
I just received an email from Autodesk about EAGLE 8.1.

Apparently, they added Obstacle Avoidance to the routing tool. They have a little video to demonstrate.

In the email, there is also a promo code to get 50% off the Premium Subscription price, because I am a *legacy EAGLE customer*.. (I own one of the "Maker" license they were offering for a while).

It's good that they try to improve the product but like many others who have posted here, this is probably not enough to get me to Subscribe.. Perhaps if and when they fully integrate with Fusion 360, we'll see..


Antoine
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 16, 2017, 06:22:03 pm
A further twist. The beta of Diptrace 3.1 was out a few days ago. They have added Eagle XML import.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timb on March 16, 2017, 06:35:43 pm
A further twist. The beta of Diptrace 3.1 was out a few days ago. They have added Eagle XML import.

So, it can natively import an Eagle file now? Good! I always found it quite a pain that you actually had to install Eagle and run a ULP to export to DipTrace.

I didn't realize the beta was out, will have to pick it up tonight!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: latigid on on March 16, 2017, 07:26:43 pm
The sad thing, especially for the developers, is that we're still talking about the unworkable subscription model over the new software features.

Imagine if the announcement was: EAGLE 8.1 with obstacle avoidance and follow-me router, full version $1299, upgrade from v7.x: $500, upgrade from v6.x: $850.

Especially for v6 users, I think a lot would go for this route. Could AD be convinced otherwise?  :horse:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on March 16, 2017, 07:30:23 pm
A further twist. The beta of Diptrace 3.1 was out a few days ago. They have added Eagle XML import.

Wow!  Someone who actually cares about the Eagle customer base!

I'll definitely be checking out DipTrace.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on March 16, 2017, 08:53:07 pm
Imagine if the announcement was: EAGLE 8.1 with obstacle avoidance and follow-me router, full version $1299, upgrade from v7.x: $500, upgrade from v6.x: $850.

You aren't asking a lot, aren't you?  ;)
Just give me the permanent license model back, Autodesk, and give me a bunch of significant new features, and I'll be alright.  8)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 16, 2017, 09:00:20 pm
Could someone even attempt to describe to me how obstacle avoidance is any different from the follow-me router in single-ended mode, as demonstrated in this video from 2011?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udjYjzvey5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udjYjzvey5Q)

Did they really just change the name, perhaps tweak 5% of the behavior, and call it a new feature? It's not even push-and-shove!!!

What the actual eff.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 16, 2017, 10:45:17 pm

Did they really just change the name, perhaps tweak 5% of the behavior, and call it a new feature? It's not even push-and-shove!!!

What the actual eff.


:-DD
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 17, 2017, 12:19:55 am
In the "sneak peak" two weeks ago Matt said it was not an upgraded Follow Me but was developed from scratch. But if it does virtually the same thing with maybe a 5% tweak in improved behavior, does it really matter what happened behind the scenes? Do customers ever see that or care beyond how it works? More evidence that what happens internally within their company is more important than customer experience.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ahbushnell on March 17, 2017, 12:34:04 am
I have worked on multiple projects that the network we used had to be air gaped from the internet.  That would preclude using Eagle now.

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: PCB.Wiz on March 17, 2017, 04:28:16 am
I have worked on multiple projects that the network we used had to be air gaped from the internet.  That would preclude using Eagle now.

Indeed, & I would say such cases are increasing, not decreasing.
Every week there are more reports of  leaks and attacks....
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: gildasd on March 17, 2017, 07:48:46 am
I have worked on multiple projects that the network we used had to be air gaped from the internet.  That would preclude using Eagle now.
Same thing here, air gapping isthe only viable option for smaller companies.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on March 17, 2017, 09:55:53 pm
Could someone even attempt to describe to me how obstacle avoidance is any different from the follow-me router in single-ended mode, as demonstrated in this video from 2011?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udjYjzvey5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udjYjzvey5Q)

Did they really just change the name, perhaps tweak 5% of the behavior, and call it a new feature? It's not even push-and-shove!!!

What the actual eff.

Hi Macegr,

It's actually very different, you would have to try it for yourself to see the difference. But here's the explanation.

Obstacle avoidance sets the ground floor to build push and shove so this is a milestone on the way to push and shove. The follow-me router is basically the autorouter being run on a single airwire either from one end or from both ends of the airwire. Depending on your mouse position the Autorouter will come up with a route which may include any number of transitions or bends, you can't predict what the follow-me router will produce in relation to your mouse position.

The Obstacle avoidance mode works differently, as long as you don't encounter an obstacle you are just manually routing like normal with full control. Once you encounter an obstacle, EAGLE will immediately walk around it, following your mouse cursor. This affords more predictability and hence greater control while routing. With the Follow-Me Router you are merely giving EAGLE two points and letting EAGLE figure out how it wants to get there, with this mode your dictating to EAGLE how it gets from point A to point B and it's smart enough to walk around barriers.

I understand the confusion from the videos since you can't see the mouse clicks, but try it out and you'll see it's nothing like the Follow me router.

I hope this is helpful.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on March 18, 2017, 09:17:57 pm
https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY (https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY)

 :palm:

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: timgiles on March 18, 2017, 10:12:26 pm
Yeah, I always wondered why Eagle devs could not keep the GUI reactive whilst Eagle was caching info like the Library - and provide feeback to the user this was happening...  |O
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ElectronicCat on March 19, 2017, 01:00:41 am
Anyone know how licence migration from 7.0 to 8.0 is supposed to work? I applied for a free student licence just before they were bought out which I've mostly been using, but I recently downloaded 8.0 to try. I only just noticed, but it seems to think I have a full unlimited commercial licence for 8.0 whereas on 7.7 it is correctly identified as a student licence which expires at the end of this year. Have I really managed to get a free unlimited commercial licence?
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 19, 2017, 01:28:21 am
https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY (https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY)

 :palm:

 :-DD just.keeps.getting.better
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on March 19, 2017, 07:40:43 am
Anyone know how licence migration from 7.0 to 8.0 is supposed to work? I applied for a free student licence just before they were bought out which I've mostly been using, but I recently downloaded 8.0 to try. I only just noticed, but it seems to think I have a full unlimited commercial licence for 8.0 whereas on 7.7 it is correctly identified as a student licence which expires at the end of this year. Have I really managed to get a free unlimited commercial licence?

Technically, the educational version should be identical to the commercial premium version anyway. Whether commercial use is now allowed or not is debatable, I would say. Even if the splash screen does not state the "educational use only" clause, your applicable license contract still does. On the other hand, if you choose to release a small PCB commercially, or do some freelance PCB design with your Eagle version, I doubt that Autodesk would come to haunt you... Unless you start bragging about it in online forums, maybe...  ;)

As to the "unlimited" aspect: All Eagle licenses are time-limited (subscription only) now, and I'm pretty sure so is yours.  :--
 
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on March 19, 2017, 08:13:23 pm
Nothing's more educational than shipping hardware!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: jgarc063 on March 20, 2017, 03:45:39 pm
https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY (https://youtu.be/zB3qGBPZjQY)

 :palm:

Hi Karel,

I hope you're having a good day. Try running EAGLE using the eagle_SW_OpenGL.bat that comes in EAGLE's installation directory. For users that just get the blank screen this is the current solution.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.(Remember it's about stuff that I can actually do).

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on March 21, 2017, 06:54:10 pm
No - before if you had a license that expired - it would cost you dearly to "come back" in the upgrade/maintenance fold. So if you stopped updating at v2012 - to update to v2015 you would have to pay extra for the time missed. Now you just stop - and when you want to restart - you just subscribe again. So it is a no-brainer to stop subscriptions. Any financial departments will focus on expensive subscriptions in a downturn. If only downside is " loss of access " at end of period - that is the first place they will insist on saving. A big company might now cut all subscriptions - but maybe take 75% offline for a while.

You're assuming that the subscription price is going to be a constant throughout time, however. No one has any reason to believe that is going to be the case.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: EBRAddict on March 21, 2017, 11:39:56 pm
:palm:

World of Tanks  ;D  I played 2011-2013.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: DerekG on February 06, 2018, 04:48:23 pm
For EAGLE users who dislike the new subscription model introduced by Autodesk, here is a special offer from DipTrace to entice you to make the move:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/diptrace/diptrace-special-offer-for-eagle-users/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/diptrace/diptrace-special-offer-for-eagle-users/)

Added: DipTrace Ver 3.2 added full support to export DipTrace files back to EAGLE. An import filter (for EAGLE to DipTrace) was already in place from an earlier version:

https://diptrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11893 (https://diptrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11893)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on February 06, 2018, 05:31:06 pm
I finally [hesitantly] paid up to Autodesk for Fusion 360 and Eagle to replace Solidworks, MasterCAM, and Eagle 6.5.

I prefer not to have a cloud data system, but for my business, it is not a deal killer. Overall, the price difference is staggering and the capability of Fusion 360 is rather amazing. After 20 years of Solidworks I was very hesitant but pleasantly surprised to see what I get for a fraction of the cost. This is not the thread for me to dive into that part of it though....let me comment on Eagle.

First - let me thank the Autodesk Eagle team for introducing some critical and welcome updates. They have effectively brought the software up from 1998 to about 2007. Reasonably useful push and shove routing, some updates in part management, some integration into Fusion 360 are all excellent things. It still feels like 10 year old software in so many ways. The graphics are comedy gold. Especially crappy when working on multilayer boards. The graphics in Circuit Studio and Altium Designer are literally a decade (or more) ahead. Vastly easier to interpret. Eagle has made some updates that amount to putting lipstick on a pig. It just makes a prettier pig.

The good news is that they seem to be rather aggressive at making improvements. Obviously, I am able to make PCB's with the tool but just with some frustration.
New CAM processor is better - direct ZIP output, more control over output details.
Obstacle avoidance routing is VERY welcome.
Loop delete routing saves time.
Net labels on traces is nice (this happened a while ago I think)


Critical things that are still awful.
[still learning and discovering new features, but some observations]
Differential routing is still level 0.
Editing an existing trace with push and shove does not seem to be a feature [maybe I have not yet figured it out?]
The graphics engine is still 1998 - they added a patch feature that shows a rendered PCB in a separate window which is at least an effort.
Layer transparency is TERRIBLE.
Selection tool is still not able to select an entire track to change width
I still cannot edit a track with radiused corners and keep the radii tangent to the track.
There is still no (apparent) snap vertical-horizontal-45 degree. Making small edits to tracks a pain since they tend to end up crooked and with various angles.
While making a new part footprint - there is still no way to directly dimension as you would in any other CAD program. SO MUCH WASTED TIME trying to figure out the distances based only on the center of the pad. This is roughly 1990 level software design. Windows 3.1.
The stupid HTML tags are still needed in the comments/descriptions - seriously. Put a text bar at the top to format text like people do in 2018.

Those are just a few low-lights for the moment. Overall, I am happy with the updates and upgrades. Eagle side by side with Fusion 360 is like a 20 year old dating a 75 year old though. Just looks wrong even if they are in love.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: ebastler on February 06, 2018, 05:41:18 pm
Eagle side by side with Fusion 360 is like a 20 year old dating a 75 year old though. Just looks wrong even if they are in love.

 :-DD
Made my day, thank you!
(And thank you for a great update on the state of affairs, by the way!)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on February 08, 2018, 06:02:07 am
Ok....two straight 12 hour days with the latest Eagle.

I still hate it more than any other software I have had to use in my profession.....which goes back to 1990. It is not for lack of knowing or trying either - I am 4 years into this software. In the end, I get PCB's but not without millions of cuss words, holes in the wall from flying coffee cups, etc.

Setting up blind/buried vias is a suicide mission.
Duplicating a part to make a minor variation - slow death.
Editing an outline is pure pain

If I was put in charge I would consider pulling the plug and starting over. It. Is. That. Bad.

Stuck for now....but am on a mission to tell everyone I know that life is too precious to use Eagle.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: james_s on February 08, 2018, 06:16:05 am
If it's that bad why do you keep using it?

I tried every EDA I could get my hands on and determined that they all suck, so in the end I went with KiCAD since it's free and stuck with it until I knew my way around the quirks.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on February 08, 2018, 06:47:15 am
I do not have enough time to learn a new system, build a new library, and get it to output the pick and place data as my machine needs it.

My guess is that it would take a considerable amount of time to transition to any other tool. I demo'd Circuit Studio and it seemed like a huge step up..... except for the time I did not have to really learn it, get my library setup with part numbers etc.

Like I said, I am stuck for now. Also, I am moving from Solidworks and Mastercam to Fusion 360 and that is going very well. Fusion 360 is rather polished but still has a very steep learning curve.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Kjelt on February 08, 2018, 09:55:02 am
What I don't get from autodesk is that their incredible multimillion $  Cad program Fusion360 is totally free for non profit orgs and hobbieists but their handicapped Eagle has to be licensed per month?
Like they are throwing away buckets of $ out the left window trying to scrape in a few envelopes of $ on the right window, I don't get it at all  :-//
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: DerekG on February 08, 2018, 10:34:29 am
Ok....two straight 12 hour days with the latest Eagle.

I still hate it more than any other software I have had to use in my profession.....

Stuck for now....but am on a mission to tell everyone I know that life is too precious to use Eagle.

Easy solution. DipTrace has both EAGLE import & export filters.

Simply export your final design into EAGLE format & hand that to your boss. He will never know the difference.

I demo'd Circuit Studio and it seemed like a huge step up..... except for the time I did not have to really learn it, get my library setup with part numbers etc.

You can read all your library components into DipTrace ..............

Circuit Studio is actually not too bad. I have a licensed copy of Altium .......... but simply prefer the logical menu systems of DipTrace - it actually reminds me of Protel which is good :)

I guess you have to make a choice:

Either struggle on for the rest of your days or be pro-active & put in a small amount of effort in so that you enjoy your work for the next 20 years.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on February 08, 2018, 11:13:39 am
Ok....two straight 12 hour days with the latest Eagle.

I still hate it more than any other software I have had to use in my profession.....which goes back to 1990. It is not for lack of knowing or trying either - I am 4 years into this software. In the end, I get PCB's but not without millions of cuss words, holes in the wall from flying coffee cups, etc.

I guess you've never had the pleasure of using DxDesigner then.... That is by far the most painful user experience I have ever had the misfortune to have. EAGLE on the other hand, once I got over the initial hump of learning how it all worked, it actually became quite usable.

Setting up blind/buried vias is a suicide mission.
Duplicating a part to make a minor variation - slow death.
Editing an outline is pure pain

The text string to configure the layers and all the via options does look alien to start off with but once you know the syntax and think about how the board is going to be built you can create almost any layer / via setup in seconds. For a 16-layer board with blind/buried/micro vias, a graphical setup would be a long winded click fest in comparison. It might be nice to have as as option for people that can't cope without everything being GUI based but it would probably be slower.

I don't get the difficulty on creating duplicate parts? I do this often....

I will give you the outline thing for complex board shapes, that could be improved a lot. Having said that, unless you are talking complex curves, then most things can be done with the mitre and split commands and suitable grid choices. It could be improved though I admit. You can of course create a board outline in Fusion360 and push that to EAGLE using the ECAD<->MCAD link. The whole Fusion360 thing can be a bit fiddly beyond that at the moment with the whole requirement to use Managed Libraries if you want to go the other way from EAGLE to Fusion360 and get a 3D model of your board.

If I was put in charge I would consider pulling the plug and starting over. It. Is. That. Bad.

Stuck for now....but am on a mission to tell everyone I know that life is too precious to use Eagle.

I actually don't find it that bad. There are pain points which they need to improve but they are adding a lot of improvements. I do a lot of boards, complex multi layer microvia boards with ridiculously fine pitch parts and whilst it's not without problems at times, it's never really given me any serious pain and I can produce boards quickly.

DxDesigner on the other hand....
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Wilksey on February 09, 2018, 03:22:36 pm
For me the most annoying part about switching CAD tools is the libraries, the tools themselves are all pretty much the same you just have to navigate your way around, be it EAGLE, DipTrace, KiCAD, or even Altium.

WHA?! OK, obviously I am talking about simple boards with no high speed design and it will take a few days to learn how each tool does it's layer stackup management and what they call each layer etc etc, true, it's a learning curve, but depending on what your requirements are, might not be that big a learning curve, especially with online YT videos giving step by step guides to creating projects start - finish in these various tools.

That aside, what I did find however, when moving away from the dearly beloved (EAGLE 7 R.I.P), that some of the other tool creators have realised what a complete mockery Autodesk have done to EAGLE, given us the ability to import (with minor tweaks required) EAGLE libraries and projects, now they are not perfect, 85% I would say depending on the tool and your first thought is WTF has it done with this, but if you spend a few mins looking at it, it isn't too bad.

I believe KiCAD have just announced an importer for EAGLE with it's upcoming v5, and DipTrace offers a discount for users switching from EAGLE (not sure what ver) to DipTrace.

I still have 7.7 for legacy stuff, and some i have re-done with a different tool.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on February 09, 2018, 05:41:43 pm
For any given software - the transition from one to the other is an unknown. I was pleasantly surprised how well Circuit Studio was able to bring in Eagle projects. There was some weirdness, but did not seem too terrible. As expected  - everything is different. Sometimes with different names, and definitely in a different place.

To be successful in any ECAD software, I need to be able to create parts, create schematics, layout a PCB (with differential signals, blind/buried vias, etc), output manufacturing data for PCB fab and our own assembly process. My assumption is that in addition to the immediate learning curve, there will also be the unexpected stuff. For example, in Eagle I had an unexpected day-long struggle getting the drill file to output in the correct format.

At the moment, I am booked solid until about August (this is a very good problem to have). I am also behind schedule after taking about 2 weeks to set up a new machine, so truly have limited time to learn a new piece of software. I did make the decision to phase out Solidworks and Mastercam in favor of Fusion 360 but I have no expectation that I will make the switch for about 6 months. It very much looks like Fusion360 will be a step up for the long haul. In the ECAD world - I was not sure any of the packages would be a good long-term solution. Altium Designer looks amazing except the price is vicious. Circuit Studio looked like a better fit and a great price - but the learning curve is still there.

Here is ultimately what kept me with Eagle......they put out the most useful possible feature for an end-to-end designer like me.......a bi-directional connection with Fusion360. I was minutes away from picking Circuit Studio or Altium when I saw that. Nearly all of my projects are very integrated - where the mechanics and electronics are designed very close. When a part needs to move on the PCB - that can trigger a change on the mechanical side - and vise versa.

Whoever pushed for this mechanical integration feature at Autodesk get a big applause from me. The software is still full of warts, but this keeps me hangin' on.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: janoc on February 25, 2018, 01:45:00 pm
Those are just a few low-lights for the moment. Overall, I am happy with the updates and upgrades. Eagle side by side with Fusion 360 is like a 20 year old dating a 75 year old though. Just looks wrong even if they are in love.

 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :-+
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on February 25, 2018, 03:24:49 pm
Apart from the subscription, which is a no go for us, there's another problem since autodesk took over Eagle.
There are no stable versions anymore. Every new version comes with some bugfixes, but also with new bugs.
You report them, they fix it in a newer version which contains again new bugs...

They don't don't have LTS (long term support) releases. Releases that receive for at least one year bugfixes only and
has highest priority. All new features go into the next LTS release.

It looks like autodesk is aiming at the hobbyist/maker only.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: janoc on February 25, 2018, 03:32:59 pm
Apart from the subscription, which is a no go for us, there's another problem since autodesk took over Eagle.
There are no stable versions anymore. Every new version comes with some bugfixes, but also with new bugs.
You report them, they fix it in a newer version which contains again new bugs...

They don't don't have LTS (long term support) releases. Releases that receive for at least one year bugfixes only and
has highest priority. All new features go into the next LTS release.

It looks like autodesk is aiming at the hobbyist/maker only.

That's the same model as Fusion360. If you sign up for Fusion you became a paying betatester for features intended for their Inventor and AutoCAD tools.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rachaelp on February 25, 2018, 03:58:35 pm
Apart from the subscription, which is a no go for us, there's another problem since autodesk took over Eagle.
There are no stable versions anymore. Every new version comes with some bugfixes, but also with new bugs.
You report them, they fix it in a newer version which contains again new bugs...

This WAS true up until the 8.4.x releases. Since then they have implemented a bug fix only in minor point releases policy. So new features (and bugs) arrive in x.y.0 releases and only bug fixes in the minor point releases after that. Since this policy, the latest point release of each revision has been considerably better than earlier 8.x releases which were not so stable.

Best Regards,

Rachael
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Karel on March 22, 2018, 07:48:55 pm
Online, subscription based software, what could possibly go wrong  :palm:
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: madires on March 22, 2018, 08:33:36 pm
... and that happens if you have to meet a deadline and need to change something like a transistor type because the original one isn't available for the next 6 months.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: KE5FX on March 22, 2018, 09:09:19 pm
But... but... allowing third parties to insert artificial points of failure into your business processes is what all the cool kids are doing these days!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Cerebus on March 22, 2018, 09:53:58 pm
I'm not going to say... Oh hell yes I am - I told you so, repeatedly.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on March 22, 2018, 10:38:50 pm
But... but... allowing third parties to insert artificial points of failure into your business processes is what all the cool kids are doing these days!

Telling people this would 100% happen at unknown times has been |O  |O  |O

Because it's just freaking obvious this can happen and will happen. If it's not obvious, then sadly that person is just not mentally equipped to understand. If they do understand but don't care, then they're just using the software as a toy rather than a tool.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: MarkL on March 22, 2018, 11:37:52 pm
I decided to actually see if I was being overly paranoid about this whole Eagle thing, so I've spoken to all my clients about it.  They've assured me it's perfectly fine for me to deliver on our contracts late, or even never, as long as it was due to a third party.

Wow, what a relief!  I've been so wrong for such a long time!
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on March 22, 2018, 11:53:16 pm
When does Eagle stop working entirely? Never.

All files are local and you can work for a very long time with no internet. When my internet is dead for a few hours I am busted in so many ways, Eagle is the last of my concerns.

All that coming from a person very critical of Eagle.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: Jeroen3 on March 23, 2018, 06:23:41 am
Eagle also very rarely unexpectedly stops working. When working with Altium I have seen the error handling mechanism in action a few dozen times.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on March 23, 2018, 03:08:47 pm
I have a solid list of gripes with Eagle, but fortunately stability is not one of them. On the rare occasions that Eagle has crashed, the data is generally intact.

There have been a few occasions over a number of years where the relationship between the schematic and layout files has been damaged. I tend to save bread crumb versions with different names in addition to the automatic backups - so recovery is not terrible. Overall, good reliability.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bitwelder on April 23, 2018, 08:35:29 am
on a mission to tell everyone I know that life is too precious to use Eagle.
:-DD
That should go to the EEVblog Book of Quotes
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: bgm on April 26, 2018, 11:32:06 pm
All files are local and you can work for a very long time with no internet. When my internet is dead for a few hours I am busted in so many ways, Eagle is the last of my concerns.

I always find this hilarious.  People can't work without the internet....  I spend 2-3 months away at a time often without a phone let alone internet.  One very quickly works out what is "needed" vs what is "nice to have" ...  The real amusing part is to watch student geologists come out - that is as entertaining as hell.  :)
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: rx8pilot on April 27, 2018, 02:12:09 am
All files are local and you can work for a very long time with no internet. When my internet is dead for a few hours I am busted in so many ways, Eagle is the last of my concerns.

I always find this hilarious.  People can't work without the internet....  I spend 2-3 months away at a time often without a phone let alone internet.  One very quickly works out what is "needed" vs what is "nice to have" ...  The real amusing part is to watch student geologists come out - that is as entertaining as hell.  :)

I can enjoy life without internet, phone, TV, etc.... not a problem.


Engineering with a distributed team spread all over the world....not so much. I need data to feed the engineering process constantly. From datasheets to pricing. Things don't completely stop, but relative to the speed expected in our modern world it may as well be stopped.
Eagle is an engineering tool and engineering in our modern world (professionally) is not practical without an internet connection.
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: macegr on May 10, 2018, 08:53:11 pm
https://www.autodesk.com/products/artcam/overview (https://www.autodesk.com/products/artcam/overview)

Quote
As of February 7, 2018, Autodesk will officially discontinue ArtCAM as an individual product. As of that date, there will not be any further releases or development for ArtCAM and product updates will no longer be delivered.

Customers who have an active ArtCAM subscription can continue to renew until July 7, 2018.

Perpetual licenses

Customers who have a perpetual license of ArtCAM on maintenance can continue to renew their maintenance plan or choose to use their license without maintenance.

ArtCAM was a large, capable, and well-known tool in the CNC operator world. It was announced EOL this year, with only 5 months to locate, purchase, train up, and convert existing parts to a different program before the subscription-based licenses would start self-destructing.

Meanwhile, the announcement above admits that permanent license holders will be able to keep using the abandoned software as long as necessary while making a switch to another program.

Not sure why I bother pointing out that SaaS is harmful to customers, the companies doing this are openly pointing out why permanent licensing is better in their own product-kill press releases!  :-DD
Title: Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
Post by: XFDDesign on May 11, 2018, 01:14:24 am

Not sure why I bother pointing out that SaaS is harmful to customers, the companies doing this are openly pointing out why permanent licensing is better in their own product-kill press releases!  :-DD

This week I've officially begun my migration away from Eagle over to KiCad, and have found it to be generally painless (biggest pain being the development of new libraries for my components). I've been, in general, very happy with Eagle but the Rent-ware aspect just keeps showing itself to be a needless risk.  :-//