Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 139267 times)

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #200 on: January 23, 2017, 06:55:46 pm »
User Report:

I have downloaded v8 of Eagle, Mac on a system that has at least two previous versions of Eagle.  Download and install was seamless.  v8 found all of my designs and libraries.  I was able to immediately open and edit existing design with no crashes.  v8 is actually quite snappy, so whatever Autodesk is doing isn't bogging down the software ... yet. In fact, v8 seems to launch faster than 7.6.  I even tried to do a bunch of silly edits to my design to force v8 to throw and error.  Nothing.  It worked fine. Pan and zoom still need some work on the Mac, but that is the same as for v7.6.

My existing version of v7.6 Eagle will come up and run perfectly - side by side with v8, no errors, warnings, or issues.  I can discern no obvious attempts by Autodesk to inhibit, in any way, use of the license that I have already own. 

FWIW...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 06:57:27 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #201 on: January 23, 2017, 07:41:49 pm »
That brings me back to the second part of my question which you did not answer: will Eagle 7 continue to receive maintenance upgrades. If not, will Autodesk be releasing a statement that Eagle 7 is now end-of-life, and provide refunds to anyone who just purchased it? According to your statement, Eagle 8 is a new product and therefore doesn't count as a major release within the scope of the Eagle 7 product, so you will need to provide a reason for no longer maintaining Eagle 7.

I'd really like a bugfix to the Mac OS crash on pan/zoom....

Hi Garrett,

Ah ok... Sorry I misunderstood I thought you were talking about help support. In regards to your question, Autodesk has followed the same pattern Cadsoft did with previous releases. Once a new release is out, work on the previous one stops. Autodesk efforts are all focused on Autodesk EAGLE moving forward.

This is what Cadsoft has always done, and it looks like Autodesk want to continue that way. The crash on Mac OS can be side stepped by resizing the window before you start working. Autodesk EAGLE so far seems to have corrected the issue but I'll wait to hear more user feedback before I call it cured.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Online macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #202 on: January 23, 2017, 07:46:14 pm »
Jorge,

But you're saying that for licensing purposes, Eagle 8 is "brand new product" and is not an upgrade in the path of the existing Eagle product, Eagle 7 is a different product line from Eagle 8 and therefore the licenses do not conflict. Now you're saying that Eagle 8 is an upgrade to Eagle 7 and therefore you don't have to release any more bugfixes for Eagle 7? Which is it?
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #203 on: January 23, 2017, 08:00:23 pm »
Jorge,

But you're saying that for licensing purposes, Eagle 8 is "brand new product" and is not an upgrade in the path of the existing Eagle product, Eagle 7 is a different product line from Eagle 8 and therefore the licenses do not conflict. Now you're saying that Eagle 8 is an upgrade to Eagle 7 and therefore you don't have to release any more bugfixes for Eagle 7? Which is it?

Hi Garrett,

All I said in my previous post is that Autodesk followed the same pattern as Cadsoft. When we were just Cadsoft (under Farnell and prior) the instant V6 came out, development on 5 stopped. Likewise when V7 came out development on V6 stopped. Now that Autodesk has released a new EAGLE, development on EAGLE V7 has stopped.

They are different products and because of this (as well as fitting within the pattern of behavior Cadsoft has always demonstrated), development on V7 of EAGLE has stopped. All development effort is now going into V8.

Let me know if there's still anything else that isn't clear.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Online macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #204 on: January 23, 2017, 08:13:45 pm »
It's clear enough, but this indicates that you still consider Autodesk Eagle (Eagle 8 ) to be in the same major release chain as Eagle 4, 5, 6, and 7. That would indicate Eagle 7 would be considered a "Previous Version" under the licensing agreement, and especially if someone accepts a discounted subscription by virtue of having purchased Eagle 7 recently, then Autodesk Eagle would replace the existing version.

Cadsoft, to my knowledge, did not announce that Eagle 7 was end-of-life prior to the announcement of Eagle 8. Instead (as in previous major version releases) the announcement of the next major version release served as the indicator that the previous version was EOL. If you follow the same process here, this indicates that Autodesk Eagle, in contrast with your earlier statement, is not a "brand new product" but is considered a major version release in the same product line as Eagle 7. Therefore the licensing follows through and the disturbing clause 1.2.1 may still be in effect.

Otherwise: are you saying that if I received a discounted price to upgrade to Eagle 8, that still does not affect my existing Eagle 7 license, and I can legally allow an employee to use that Eagle 7 license simultaneously with my own use of Eagle 8?
 

Offline Nauris

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #205 on: January 23, 2017, 09:04:18 pm »
Just two months ago I purchased Eagle 7.7 Ultimate and with these new licensing conditions I am certainly not going to upgrade. 7.7 works good enough for my needs.

I have some requirements for any development software I put in use:

1. I must be able to maintain any product and tooling as long as I need. All software must work without any vendor (who may or may not exist ten or twenty years down the road) support or activation servers.
2. No data may be transferred out to any external server or cloud.
3. Software must work on a computer isolated from Internet.

These are strict requirements. If I were to buy new EDA software now, EAGLE would be out of consideration because it does not meet these basic requirements.
 
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #206 on: January 23, 2017, 09:34:33 pm »
Just two months ago I purchased Eagle 7.7 Ultimate and with these new licensing conditions I am certainly not going to upgrade. 7.7 works good enough for my needs.

I have some requirements for any development software I put in use:

1. I must be able to maintain any product and tooling as long as I need. All software must work without any vendor (who may or may not exist ten or twenty years down the road) support or activation servers.
2. No data may be transferred out to any external server or cloud.
3. Software must work on a computer isolated from Internet.

These are strict requirements. If I were to buy new EDA software now, EAGLE would be out of consideration because it does not meet these basic requirements.
 

Strict? Those are common sense requirements. What ever happened to common sense?
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #207 on: January 23, 2017, 09:37:57 pm »
Cadsoft, to my knowledge, did not announce that Eagle 7 was end-of-life prior to the announcement of Eagle 8. Instead (as in previous major version releases) the announcement of the next major version release served as the indicator that the previous version was EOL. If you follow the same process here, this indicates that Autodesk Eagle, in contrast with your earlier statement, is not a "brand new product" but is considered a major version release in the same product line as Eagle 7. Therefore the licensing follows through and the disturbing clause 1.2.1 may still be in effect.

Otherwise: are you saying that if I received a discounted price to upgrade to Eagle 8, that still does not affect my existing Eagle 7 license, and I can legally allow an employee to use that Eagle 7 license simultaneously with my own use of Eagle 8?

Hi Garrett,

First off, Cadsoft never did formal EOL announcements I don't know if Autodesk does either. The discount for existing users is being done as a courtesy(I think that's the least that can be done in light of the antagonism towards subscription). Notice how that last few post from me don't mention 8, as far as Autodesk is concerned to the world there is only Autodesk EAGLE. The software may still show a version number in some places but from a legal and marketing perspective Cadsoft is nowhere to be found.

To directly answer your question, yes your scenario is perfectly acceptable. The workflow might be uncomfortable but it's totally OK. You can have an employee using V7 and you be using Autodesk EAGLE no problem. Like I mentioned before Autodesk EAGLE is a new product to Autodesk it is not an upgrade to V7. We have been purposely instructed to avoid the term upgrade because it doesn't apply, if you see it anywhere it is the specific poster's own error.

hth,
Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

 

Online macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #208 on: January 23, 2017, 11:30:02 pm »
Thanks Jorge, that does help clarify things. Especially laying out specifically that Autodesk considers Eagle 7 and Autodesk Eagle to be different product lines, and that a subscriber is in fact renting a second Eagle license in addition to the perpetual one they might already own. However, any past versions of Eagle are now permanently frozen, and Eagle 7.7 will not receive any additional updates no matter what OS incompatibility or security vulnerabilities are discovered. Thanks for making it very clear.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #209 on: January 23, 2017, 11:35:52 pm »
Agreed, that clarification makes sense.  I don't see any point in beating up Jorge over whether EAGLE 8 is considered an upgrade or a separate product.  The fact that CadSoft doesn't owe me anything beyond the V7.7 release is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.  They add useful features to the software.  I give them money in exchange for licenses.  Until I need more licenses, or until they add more features that I want, we're done. 

This equilibrium has worked well for decades.  Holding my files hostage in a danegeld-by-subscription scheme isn't part of the equation.
 

Online macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #210 on: January 24, 2017, 12:02:20 am »
I didn't particularly like chasing Matt and Jorge in circles around this issue either, nor do I like reading legalese, but I needed the answer. Glad we now have it.
 

Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #211 on: January 24, 2017, 12:04:20 am »
The discount for existing users is being done as a courtesy(I think that's the least that can be done in light of the antagonism towards subscription).

Hey Jorge,

How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license? The only mention of it I've seen has been to email someone and ask for it. When I re-evaluate my choice of PCB software I will give Eagle 8 a fair chance, but I'm not likely to get around to it for a while.

Thanks.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #212 on: January 24, 2017, 07:27:03 am »
Jorge,

Can we still buy the old V7 license (Ultimate)?
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #213 on: January 24, 2017, 07:42:15 am »
I didn't particularly like chasing Matt and Jorge in circles around this issue either, nor do I like reading legalese, but I needed the answer. Glad we now have it.
If you NEED it I would recommend emailing the company and ask for a response, since any posts on this forum from employees are for the responsibility of said employees only and are legally not binding for the company, eg you still have nothing and if you need a valid legal response for your business I would go through the proper channels to get it.

 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #214 on: January 24, 2017, 10:44:23 am »
If it's "just" Autodesk Eagle, why does it install as 8.0?  Just like the others but with 8 rather than 7.

In fact, the install looks quite messy, it's riddled with the QT libraries now, the "bin" folder contains just images, and what is the HLSL D3D compiler for?  It has no 3D, why do you need the shader compiler?

I'm not convinced by this new version at all, and what's up with the no x32 bit now, I have an old laptop that runs a 32 bit OS that I used if I was away and didn't care if it got lost or broken, was OK for schematic checking and layout, which this new version buggers me up 2 fold!
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #215 on: January 24, 2017, 03:26:30 pm »
Yes, that is what I noticed as well. If you know how to compile Qt you will try to static link the libs you need, and not include all the dll's.
If they use one simple class from the 3D lib, you will need the entire 3D lib with dynamic linking. Which led me to assume they don't have Qt license. But that would be strange.

I don't know how many of the original developers are still left. If none, I think they will just need to get going first. Give them a year or two to develop, then judge again.
Software is hard, especially maintenance on existing large projects.

My opinion on the license system with subscription is that they exclude a large part of the original target audience. The target audience of such system are medium to large companies.
For personal or self-employed it's expensive if you calculate it to hourly price. However, a one time fee of 500 and yearly 50 renewal would be fine for me.

A more fair way would be to pay per block of x hours of actual use. But the implementation leaves a lot of space for discussion.
 

Offline plazma

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #216 on: January 24, 2017, 03:39:13 pm »
FYI the student licence is Premium. So if you are a student you can get the EAGLE 8.0 Premium for FREE!!!

I just started an embedded course where you also have to design the PCB.
Now I have to decide between Eagle Premium or Kicad....
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #217 on: January 24, 2017, 04:09:08 pm »
A number of people have said they are happy with a subscription model. Here's why, for some people, a subscription model is a killer.

It's a sad fact of life that many small and medium sized businesses (SMEs) go through the occasional cash-flow crisis. I've worked for, or with, a lot of SMEs and I've seen a lot of those cash flow crises even in well managed companies. What determines whether a business survives a cash-flow crisis is whether they have effective ways of minimizing their cash outgoings while still being able to manage business as usual.

If you own assets you need for your business you can sweat them. Delay upgrades to software and hardware, put up with the crappy old delivery van that needs careful coaxing to start in winter, don't buy the custom reception carpet with the logo in it*, persuade the staff to put off bonuses and rises until the crisis is over and so on.

If you rent any thing that is essential to your business you can't put off paying for it, it isn't an asset, it's a liability, it can't be sweated. If you can't pay for it you stop being able to do your work, if you pay for it in preference to other essentials you can't do what they are required for.

With that in mind, I would say that it is a fool who rents something essential to his business that isn't fungible (that is easily replaced with something similar, mutually exchangeable). Premises are fungible, cloud hosting is arguably fungible but something like software that requires retraining and/or retooling isn't fungible.

The current market for Eagle is SMEs and hobbyists. Wise SMEs know they will likely face cash flow problems at some point. Given the choice between the 'sweatable' asset of a perpetual software licence and the ongoing liability of a rental model the wise SME is going to take the former choice every time.  Wise SMEs eventually grow, foolish ones go out of business.

Ergo, Autocad has just sown the seeds of Eagle becoming a hobbyist only product while simultaneously changing their available licences to make it a less attractive product to a section of the hobbyist market (who I suspect they don't really want and don't really care about).

* I once had a company that made custom carpets as one of my customers. They stopped supplying SMEs directly because it seemed that the arrival of a custom carpet with the company logo in the reception area of an SME was a clear marker that the company was on the verge of going out of business and therefore would, most likely, not actually pay the bill for said carpet. Other signs to look out for are frequent reorganizations of offices or product lines, aka "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #218 on: January 24, 2017, 05:17:35 pm »
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
 

Online macegr

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #219 on: January 24, 2017, 05:57:21 pm »
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers. Why would I pay for Obsolescence as a Service. Cerebus' non-sweatable resource point is also very good. Many small businesses fluctuate in cash flow as they crack into a new market and take necessary risks. With my current license of Eagle, I could survive nearly anything; the jettison of product lines and warehouse/shop space, I could pare down and down until all I need to climb back up is my computer, my install of Eagle, a couch, and a client for contract design work.

It's the grand tradition of a workman owning their tools. As long as a carpenter has a hammer and saw they can find work. I propose finding your nearest plumber, carpenter, or welder and telling them about a new plan where they pay a monthly fee that would be enough to buy their tools outright in three years, but they have to keep paying and if they can't pay you come take the tools away.
 
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Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #220 on: January 24, 2017, 06:21:22 pm »
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers....

Two other major problems that can happen as a result of subscription model software forcing "upgrades" upon users are a loss of backward compatibility with older files and the introduction of a fatal bug that brings work to a halt. I've experienced both of these delightful scenarios and it is why, for example, I have waited until I am NOT in the middle of a project to install the latest version of EAGLE (well, that and the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #221 on: January 24, 2017, 06:45:09 pm »
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

This is a comforting analysis.  But flawed. 

It isn't great for Autodesk.  Because it doesn't provide the steady revenue stream they covet, either because they are loving, caring employers of a dedicated software development team, or because they are greedy.  If turn ons and turn offs of the subscription were a purely random thing you might make an argument for it, but strangely, bad economic times run in cycles.  So there will be good times and bad times just as there are now.  I am sure they are planning on the vast majority of their subscribers maintaining a continuous subscription.  If a significant fraction of their subscriptions turn out to be intermittent I foresee modifications to the model.  Penalties for dropping and restarting or something like that.  (Could be recast positive by announcing a cross the board price increase with discounts for continuous subscribers.)

There are additional problems for the intermittent subscriber model.  If each upgrade is not comprehensive there will be significant problems bringing intermittent license holders up to date when they re-subscribe.  If they are comprehensive there will be complaints about all the time spent on installation.  By all users, but most particularly by those coveted continuous subscribers.

All software ends up finding itself painted into a corner from time to time, and has to make a change which affects backwards compatibility.  With continuous users there is usually a transition period when transition tools and support are provided.  Factor in intermittent users and the transition time (and thus costs) will have to be extended.  Bad for Autodesk if they do a lengthy transition support, bad for users if they don't.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 12:38:05 am by CatalinaWOW »
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #222 on: January 24, 2017, 06:58:34 pm »
Doesn't change the core problem with having to rent a piece of software for eternity in order to access and modify old designs, and depend on Autodesk to keep running the servers....

... the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

I worried about this. As near as I can tell, V8 of Eagle picked up all of my older preferences and file locations.  I had no issues bringing in a pre-8 design.

To be fair, file compatibility has never been an eagle trademark. Just ask OSHPARK about their non-stop Herculean efforts to keep their file importer compatible with Eagle over the years. Autodesk has a pretty good culture of backward/forward file compatibility practices, so I would expect this situation to get better, not worse.

Like I've said, expect Autodesk to make some mis-steps. They do, however, listen to reason. It's 2017, and I still have my beloved command-line input in AutoCad, which is still there after a massive riot by crusty curmudgeons such as yours truly, when it was removed somewhere in the early 90's.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #223 on: January 24, 2017, 07:01:54 pm »
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

I do not think AutoDesk will make it easy to stop/start subscriptions - and maybe even put limits on how often you change.

But since it now is internet auto-check in software - why not just bill automatically for the months the product have been used? No need to press a pause button - just don't use it in that billable period - and AutoDesk won't bill... But that will never happen.... But that would be the fair way - and a true Pay as You Go model. If that was the case I would probably subscribe to  AutoDesk Inventor on a monthly basis - as I have maybe one to three projects a year in it.
 

Offline Agent86

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #224 on: January 24, 2017, 07:20:11 pm »
@LabSpokane: I appreciate you being an apologist for Autodesk.  It is easy to forget that EAGLE has a chance to grow up and become a professional level tool under the auspices of Autodesk.  However, with the hard-line, non-negotiable nature of their subscription model, there will be growing pains and the EAGLE target market will change.  Good for the new market, maybe bad for the old.  Evolve or die, right? 

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.
I don't think anyone would dispute how cost-effective the subscription model can be for someone who engages in what you rightly point out to be "professional PCB design".

Quote
For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
Reading the various threads here, on EAGLE Central, and on the official Autodesk forum, I think the two biggest discussion points are that, 1) many EAGLE users are hobby/small business/prosumer types who now feel alienated because they are losing the sense of ownership that comes with paying for tools that one gets to keep using forever (we were part of what felt like a small community that used a cool tool and we proudly wanted to support that), and 2) even if the subscription model is acceptable, many users don't want, or can't have, a required connection to the Internet.

In my decades in the computer business, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth many times.  Thin client, thick client, thin client.  Cloud- and subscription-based services are merely the latest iteration of thin client.  At some point, businesses will realize that they want to cut their operations (cloud and subscription) expenses and will switch those funds back into capital budgets.  Some of us haven't been big enough to have large operations budgets or to take advantage of the accounting benefits of them, so we're still spending capital money to own our own assets...
 


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