Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 139271 times)

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Offline iampoor

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #225 on: January 24, 2017, 07:24:39 pm »
You guys have no idea the awesome that is about to drop.  ;D

That screenshot only shows a few of the new things coming, there's even more that isn't shown on that screen.

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to say much. I do encourage everyone to join the Hack-chat happening tomorrow on hackaday.
http://hackaday.com/2017/01/11/friday-hack-chat-eagle-pcb-design-with-matt-berggren

Matt and I will be available to answer questions and discuss.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Autodesk
Product Support Specialist for EAGLE

More like, your company has no idea how much we all collectively hate Autodesk now. Thanks for ruining the CAD tool I have put the last 3 years of my work into. Of course, Its not like your company cares, because I am a 1 man band, and I wont be making you any richer.

The corporate accounts will not be feeling the pricing change (of course, why any corporation would be using Eagle with all of its bugs is beyond me), but the little guy like me is now is some trouble. I wish I got over the interface of Kicad and stuck with it.

 

Offline iampoor

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #226 on: January 24, 2017, 07:37:10 pm »
The axe has finally dropped. The CAD companies need continuing profits or they will not bother continuing to support this kind of tool because they are greedy bastards and have always been. For professionals who are continuously doing designs the $500 a year price per seat is not in issue. Its just the cost of doing business. For others who just do a few things a year or small companies with long standing products this is a real shaft. We fit into the category and will continue loafing along on our previous purchased in full Lic. until we cant use it anymore.  At that time if subscription is the only option available, apart from open source of course, we will most likely just jump up to one seat of Altium and it will just be "The company" pcb design workstation. Cadsoft was no prize, but this is just big business trying to fleece small business.

Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.

I hope Autodesk realizes that all they are doing is screwing the end users. I am really looking forward to the backlash, and can only hope that it will gain enough momentum for the corporate loonies to realize how they are annexing the core usergroup of this software.



 
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #227 on: January 24, 2017, 07:53:52 pm »
Two other major problems that can happen as a result of subscription model software forcing "upgrades" upon users are a loss of backward compatibility with older files and the introduction of a fatal bug that brings work to a halt. I've experienced both of these delightful scenarios and it is why, for example, I have waited until I am NOT in the middle of a project to install the latest version of EAGLE (well, that and the incredibly annoying fact that EAGLE always wants to install itself into an entirely new directory and NOT import/carryover any of your preferences or customizations).

Hi MagicSmoker,

In the case of Autodesk EAGLE, you are not forced to update. When an update becomes available, a button will show up on the Control panel. Click the button only when you want to perform the update. Totally understand the not updating in the middle of a project situation.

As far as EAGLE installing itself into a new directory, that is intentional to avoid the risk of damaging something in an existing working installation. The easiest way to make your customizations portable is to put them all in the eagle.scr and default-assign.scr files. All you have to do is copy these two files between versions to bring all of your customizations along.

hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #228 on: January 24, 2017, 08:03:18 pm »
Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.


Hi iampoor,

If you are a student you get the EAGLE premium for FREE. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. With the new release many of the most difficult interface quirks have been addressed, the rest will continue to be addressed as EAGLE improves.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #229 on: January 24, 2017, 08:09:29 pm »
Hey Jorge,

How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license? The only mention of it I've seen has been to email someone and ask for it. When I re-evaluate my choice of PCB software I will give Eagle 8 a fair chance, but I'm not likely to get around to it for a while.

Thanks.

Hi Beard,

I'm not allowed to say the amount on forums and as far as how long the only thing I can say is that it's limited time. The discount applies to all previous users of EAGLE doesn't matter what license or version(except freeware you must have had a paid EAGLE license at some point in time). You have to contact lourdes.vasquez@autodesk.com to get the full details.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #230 on: January 24, 2017, 08:12:09 pm »
Jorge,

Can we still buy the old V7 license (Ultimate)?

Hi Karel,

Once Autodesk EAGLE released all sales of V7 halted. If you were to buy today, you could only buy the new subscription based version.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #231 on: January 24, 2017, 08:23:47 pm »
Math check for professional PCB design work on a month to month basis.

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.

Even at half the hours, the per hour cost is under a buck.

For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.

I do not think AutoDesk will make it easy to stop/start subscriptions - and maybe even put limits on how often you change.

Umm, it's easy to manage right now and starting/stopping is done online via a license manager control panel in your Autodesk account. It's been this for at least a couple of years. It is designed to manage and allocate/de-allocate licenses among a team of users.

=======

As for the name-calling, such as "loonies."  That kind of stuff is totally over the top. Autodesk is here trying to help you right now. Give civility a try. You might like it.
 

Offline iampoor

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #232 on: January 24, 2017, 08:27:06 pm »
Exactly. This is my personal problem to. As a small business owner, and student, PCB design is maybe 10% of what I do professionally. If I was a full time professional PCB Design engineer, I would not be using Eagle in the first place, I would be using a better supported tool, with less bugs, and quirks.


Hi iampoor,

If you are a student you get the EAGLE premium for FREE. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. With the new release many of the most difficult interface quirks have been addressed, the rest will continue to be addressed as EAGLE improves.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

But then I will just be locked in to whatever Autodesk wants. I already have over 300 projects in Eagle. Migrating all of this over to another platform is already going to be a big enough nightmare. At this point, I do NOT want to take the bait of a free upgrade to your premium package, knowing that I will be at Autodesks mercy for the foreseeable future. The problem will only get exponentially worse. What happens when Autodesk decides Eagle doesnt make enough money and drops support? Given how your company has already reneged on key selling points and promises of Eagle, I would have to be a dunce to believe that it will not happen again!

I think your managers need to purchase a bigger hose to put out all of these fires. No matter how fast and comprehensivly you respond to this thread, you will not change the fact that many of your core users have been alienated.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 08:37:11 pm by iampoor »
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #233 on: January 24, 2017, 08:46:49 pm »
@LabSpokane: I appreciate you being an apologist for Autodesk.  It is easy to forget that EAGLE has a chance to grow up and become a professional level tool under the auspices of Autodesk.  However, with the hard-line, non-negotiable nature of their subscription model, there will be growing pains and the EAGLE target market will change.  Good for the new market, maybe bad for the old.  Evolve or die, right? 

Eagle service fee of $65/mo over 160 billable hours yields $0.41 USD/hour cost for software services.
I don't think anyone would dispute how cost-effective the subscription model can be for someone who engages in what you rightly point out to be "professional PCB design".

Quote
For the Jacks/Jills of all Trades, if one is not doing board design work for a month or months, the cost is zero as one can simply cancel the service until it is needed again. This is a major point missed. With software as a service, the cost of ramping up and down projects is far more manageable than shelling out thousands for permanent licenses that will only be utilized fully for a short duration.
Reading the various threads here, on EAGLE Central, and on the official Autodesk forum, I think the two biggest discussion points are that, 1) many EAGLE users are hobby/small business/prosumer types who now feel alienated because they are losing the sense of ownership that comes with paying for tools that one gets to keep using forever (we were part of what felt like a small community that used a cool tool and we proudly wanted to support that), and 2) even if the subscription model is acceptable, many users don't want, or can't have, a required connection to the Internet.

In my decades in the computer business, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth many times.  Thin client, thick client, thin client.  Cloud- and subscription-based services are merely the latest iteration of thin client.  At some point, businesses will realize that they want to cut their operations (cloud and subscription) expenses and will switch those funds back into capital budgets.  Some of us haven't been big enough to have large operations budgets or to take advantage of the accounting benefits of them, so we're still spending capital money to own our own assets...

I'm not apologizing as much as trying to explain why some of the wild assertions being made about this change are demonstrably false.

I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront. I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue. Things just don't work that way.

Moreover, verbally abusing the tech support at Autodesk is totally counter productive. This kind of behavior is clearly demonstrating that Eagle's existing base is a market that isn't worth serving. It would hardly surprise me to know that a VP's hand is already hovering over the abort button, ready to write down this entire mess as soon as possible.  That would certainly kill development of Eagle off permanently as Eagle is likely more valuable in the balance sheet  loss column than it is to re-market. Autodesk is surely Eagle's last rodeo.
 

Offline timb

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #234 on: January 24, 2017, 08:49:20 pm »
It's the grand tradition of a workman owning their tools. As long as a carpenter has a hammer and saw they can find work. I propose finding your nearest plumber, carpenter, or welder and telling them about a new plan where they pay a monthly fee that would be enough to buy their tools outright in three years, but they have to keep paying and if they can't pay you come take the tools away.

To play Devil's Advocate, a lot of automotive repair and industrial companies *do* lease their tools. SnapOn uses this business model, to great success I might add.

In fact, a lot of mechanics in training that go to a Technical College for automotive repair are required to rent their own tool chest from SnapOn, which costs several hundred dollars a month, on top of tuition. Though, it's actually more of a "rent to own" or financing scenario; basically SnapOn says the tools cost X to buy outright, but we'll rent them to you for Y per month, once you've paid X+25% you can keep them, in the mean time, if you stop paying we get the tools back. (Typically these tool sets can cost between $5000-$10000 this way!)

Some auto repair, industrial and manufacturing companies will lease tool sets from SnapOn. It tends to be very expensive, but you *do* get a high quality of service. For example, if one of your tools breaks, you lose a socket or you need some specialty tool for a day that's not part of your set, you call the local office and the SnapOn man shows up in his box truck full of tools with a replacement or whatever you need.

For a small to medium company that needs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tools (plus maintenance costs), leasing for $2000 a month (or more, or less) may actually be a smart move (in fact it may be the only way they can operate in the beginning).

Having said that, allow me to return to the side of the angels: I've seen at least one business close down (and several others on the verge of bankruptcy) specifically because they leased their tools. Essentially, business was slow for a couple of months, cash got very tight, their tools were taken away, then a big order came in and they couldn't fulfill it.

I would *never* lease, rent, whatever *any* tool that my business depends on to operate. For me, that's EDA software.

SaS makes sense for something like web based invoicing software, because I can always do by hand with spreadsheet software if I have to and I can keep PDF copies of all the invoices I generate (plus a CSV file of everything); it doesn't make sense for PCB software, especially if I might need to open that file 10 years from now, but can't because AutoDesk decided to shutter Eagle completely.

Basically, if I can't archive a VM containing Windows, my PCB software *and* the design files for *each* client project, which allows me to go back and make changes tomorrow or ten years from now, then it's no good to me. I know a lot of other designers that feel the same way, so good luck with your monthly approach to Eagle. Call me when you decide to go back to a perpetual license. (I'd be OK with an optional yearly update fee on top of that, so long as I have the option to own it.)

Edit: You know, I don't think this would have received nearly as much backlash if Eagle was in the same league as Altium or Cadence... But they're not!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Agent86

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #235 on: January 24, 2017, 09:35:13 pm »
I'm not apologizing as much as trying to explain why some of the wild assertions being made about this change are demonstrably false.
a·pol·o·gist
??päl?j?st/
noun
a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.
synonyms:   defender, supporter, upholder, advocate, proponent, exponent, propagandist, champion, campaigner; informal cheerleader

Quote
I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront.
Agreed.  But that's for the new market I was talking about, not the old (previous/current) market.  Put a different way, how would I feel if I popped $1700 a couple months ago, and now new users only have to come up with $65 to get an improved version of what I have?  I worked hard for that $1700!  At least I get to keep using the software I paid for, and there's certainly not much motivation to start paying a monthly fee on top of what I've already paid, *especially* if it's for something that gets turned off when I stop paying!

Quote
I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue.
I don't think anybody is against Autodesk making an honest buck.  But I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel like they're now being (or will be) held hostage.  IMHO, you're trying to turn an emotional issue into a logical one by discounting the emotion.  ;)  I know, I know, engineers don't deal well with emotion. :box: :scared: :-DD

Quote
Moreover, verbally abusing the tech support at Autodesk is totally counter productive. This kind of behavior is clearly demonstrating that Eagle's existing base is a market that isn't worth serving. It would hardly surprise me to know that a VP's hand is already hovering over the abort button, ready to write down this entire mess as soon as possible.  That would certainly kill development of Eagle off permanently as Eagle is likely more valuable in the balance sheet  loss column than it is to re-market. Autodesk is surely Eagle's last rodeo.
Abuse is not good, but honesty is very important.  I think you're wrong; I believe that what you refer to as this "kind of behavior" shows how loyal EAGLE fans have been, and may yet be.  Hell hath no fury as a customer scorned, to paraphrase.  And if Autodesk is indeed ready for a write down, then that tells me they didn't do their homework before acquiring EAGLE.  If it's going to happen, I want it to happen sooner than later, so that I can stop being held hostage, cut the ties and move on.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #236 on: January 24, 2017, 09:45:36 pm »
Hey Jorge,
How much is the discount, how long will it be available for and does it apply to the paid hobbyist license?

Hi Beard,
I'm not allowed to say the amount on forums and as far as how long the only thing I can say is that it's limited time.

That's a strange policy. Not sure whether this has been answered already, but anyway, I got a promotional email with the details from Autodesk today, and I don't see what should prevent me from sharing the details:

AutoCAD are offering a 50% discount on the first-year subscription, which seems to apply for buying renting either the new "EAGLE standard" or the "EAGLE premium" version. I currently have the Make version 7.6. Strangely, the email does not state for how long this offer is valid.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 10:04:14 pm by ebastler »
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #237 on: January 24, 2017, 09:49:59 pm »
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)
 

Offline timb

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #238 on: January 24, 2017, 09:57:56 pm »
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)

For servers and email, it makes a lot of sense for companies that don't have in-house IT to use service provider. In fact, this has been pretty much the standard way to do things for the last 20 years.

For test equipment, I see a lot of small companies (1-50 engineers) buy the base tools (your daily driver scopes, 5.5 digit DMMs, etc.) and then rent the expensive tools when a project comes up that needs them (10GHz scopes, high frequency current probes, SMUs). That seems to be a cost effective approach to the problem.

(It's been my experience that some larger companies lease everything like you said, though some buy what they need as they need it.)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #239 on: January 24, 2017, 10:02:53 pm »
That's a strange policy. Not sure weter this has been answered already, but anyway, I got a promotional email with the details from Autodesk today, and I don't see what should prevent me from sharing the details:
Hmmm this makes me wonder if they change the discount% based on which version you bought last.
For 50% indefinitely I might be tempted to jump on the ship, most off all since they also upgraded to 4 layers. It might become interesting, for me personally that is.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2017, 10:17:39 pm »
And if I could only troubleshoot my designs with a FrobozzCo 6000SUX Magic Phosphor Oscilloscope, I wouldn't lease that, either.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2017, 10:27:27 pm »
And if I could only troubleshoot my designs with a FrobozzCo 6000SUX Magic Phosphor Oscilloscope, I wouldn't lease that, either.

How many zorkmids does that MPO cost?
 

Offline Agent86

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #242 on: January 24, 2017, 11:02:30 pm »
I received an email today:
Quote
Hello Eagle user,
If you haven’t heard the good news by now, Autodesk EAGLE is available through our new EAGLE Subscription. No more having to find funds for the next upgrade. Here’s how it works:
1. Pay. Just a simple yearly subscription to get started.
2. Save. Get every new update at no extra cost.
3. Make. Create anything with the newest PCB design technologies.
We’re all really excited about the future of EAGLE and hope you can be a part of it. For staying with us over the years, here’s 50% off your first year of an EAGLE Subscription.
At only $250 per year, a subscription works out at less than your daily cup of coffee and it’ll boost your productivity more than the caffeine will!

I clicked  the button and went to the shopping cart.  Sorry @Kjelt, looks like it's EAGLE Premium only.

EDIT: I read later (below) that if you take Premium out of your cart, you can put Standard back in and get the 50% discount on it...

"No more having to find funds for the next upgrade."  ???  Oh yeah, now I only have to find funds right this instant for this upgrade, then a year from now I'll have to find more funds, and then a year after that, guaranteed.  It's just so simple! :-DD

"At only $250 per year, a subscription works out at less than your daily cup of coffee".  Umm, even using my Keurig 2.0, my daily coffee is $.50.  (Don Francisco Hawaiian Hazelnut or Vanilla Nut, 18 pack $8.99)  As for the productivity boost, do you mean in the first hour of the day?  :box:

And shouldn't that "At only $250 per year" really be "At only $250 for the first year only"?  If I wait a year before subscribing, I'll actually save $500 instead...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:48:46 pm by Agent86 »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #243 on: January 24, 2017, 11:31:21 pm »
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

This also applies to active cloud software, like servers and email. But an EDA isn't that active. You could still use Protel 99 today, or ULTIboard from pre NI times, like 1992 vintage. (Yes, I know someone who still uses this, at work)

For servers and email, it makes a lot of sense for companies that don't have in-house IT to use service provider. In fact, this has been pretty much the standard way to do things for the last 20 years.

For test equipment, I see a lot of small companies (1-50 engineers) buy the base tools (your daily driver scopes, 5.5 digit DMMs, etc.) and then rent the expensive tools when a project comes up that needs them (10GHz scopes, high frequency current probes, SMUs). That seems to be a cost effective approach to the problem.

(It's been my experience that some larger companies lease everything like you said, though some buy what they need as they need it.)

Again, the magic word is fungible. Spanners are fungible, scopes are fungible, email service providers are fungible but EDA packages are not.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #244 on: January 25, 2017, 12:42:51 am »
I don't think anybody is against Autodesk making an honest buck.  But I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel like they're now being (or will be) held hostage.  IMHO, you're trying to turn an emotional issue into a logical one by discounting the emotion.  ;)  I know, I know, engineers don't deal well with emotion. :box: :scared: :-DD

I don't think this is an emotional issue at all. Sure, people are upset, but their fundamental concerns are based on logical reasons why this is a big step backwards for users.

It definitely appears that this change is designed to turn the de-facto standard hobbyist/small business tool (which includes a lot of personal investment form the user base) into a cash cow. Sure Autodesk apologists and salesman are claiming that they are going to turn Eagle into a world class package, but the fact is they are asking people to pay them today in the hope that they will deliver on a vague, someday-maybe promise (which presumably new users will be able to get for the same price as those who subsidize this development with a current subscription).

Further, the user base doesn't want a world class package. They bought into Eagle because they wanted an affordable package that was more useable than something like KiCad.

To be clear, I really don't care. I never have been nor will I ever be an Eagle user (KiCad for me, thanks). I'm just here because I think this is an interesting discussion.

It's also going to be interesting watching this develop. I'm not entirely convinced that Eagle is going to survive this given how thoroughly they've misunderstood the current user base (which is the best thing Eagle has going for it). On the other hand, they might. They certainly have their users by the balls. I wonder how many actually follow through and do the enormous amount of work to get off Eagle.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #245 on: January 25, 2017, 12:46:22 am »

I hate recurring software fees as much as anybody, but $65/mo beats $1700 upfront. I just don't understand why, as annoying as it is, people think a business is going to drop $30MM or whatever it was in exchange for no new revenue. Things just don't work that way.




My son made this analysis about four years ago with respect to the MS Office suite.  When the option to buy existed.  And lamented to me that he has now paid much more than the purchase price would have been.  This simplistic analysis can be followed by a true opportunity cost analysis, but when interest rates are as low as they are now, and when overall growth is not great, the answers are not significantly different.

Your last statement can be inverted.  People don't continue paying rent when there is no value (except in monopoly markets).

The real question comes down to maturity and stability of the product.  MS Office of fifteen years ago was usable, and for the vast majority of folks, just as capable as the current product.  An ECAD program is not going to stay stable as long, at least not while packaging technology continues to move, but it remains to be seen what the value added in future versions will be, and whether that value returns the cost of rent.

 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #246 on: January 25, 2017, 01:16:46 am »
In the early days of DRM digital music, I purchased a few $hundred in songs. When I no longer subscribed to the service it would no longer authenticate the playback. Crap.
I had a number of Apple computers and devices with iTunes. I purchased iTunes music. When I moved to PC's and Android, I no longer had any access to the music I 'owned'. Crap.

I use Office 365 and I like it. If I ever move to another way of doing spreadsheets and documents - I can buy the standalone versions and stop the subscription to have access to legacy data. Yay!
I use Adobe products on subscription as well. Same thing, I have the option of buying the perpetual versions if I want to stop the subscription and preserve access. Perfect.

Every one of my mission critical engineering softwares are perpetual and that is the only way I will go. I am moving toward an internet isolated LAN configuration and I want continuous access to all of my old data all the time until the end of time.
If Eagle has no perpetual license, I will simply move on to one that does for my business. In general, I do not like Eagle but it is what I could afford to get started with. Now that I have enormous amounts of time learning and building a library, custom ULP's, keyboard shortcuts, etc - it is a pain to move as most have already pointed out. I am on 6.5 and was hopeful that the 7 would be an actual upgrade, but it was not.

I would rather finance Altium designer and own it at the end of the financing than pay monthly for Eagle which I would not own or control the update rollouts. It costs more money, but it seems to be vastly superior. I tried some cheap 3D CAD software in the late 90's and it burned up so much time. When I paid far more to get SolidWorks, I saved all that in time super quick.

Unless Eagle actually produces better software, I am not inclined to give them any money.
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Offline timb

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #247 on: January 25, 2017, 01:33:30 am »
To play Devil's Advocate, a lot of automotive repair and industrial companies *do* lease their tools. SnapOn uses this business model, to great success I might add.

In fact, a lot of mechanics in training that go to a Technical College for automotive repair are required to rent their own tool chest from SnapOn, which costs several hundred dollars a month, on top of tuition. Though, it's actually more of a "rent to own" or financing scenario; basically SnapOn says the tools cost X to buy outright, but we'll rent them to you for Y per month, once you've paid X+25% you can keep them, in the mean time, if you stop paying we get the tools back. (Typically these tool sets can cost between $5000-$10000 this way!)


The difference is that the mechanic eventually owns the tools and was just financing the purchase. The subscription model never leads to ownership or perpetual use of the tools. That's where the analogy breaks down and your argument with it. Also the mechanic can use another tool companies product to access an industry standard sized nut. That is another difference with software having proprietry file formats.

If a CAD file could be used with any CAD package this whole debate would have far less emotion attached to it and noone would feel trapped or vulnerable to future changes.

Right, and that was kind of my point... The subscription model with no option to own just doesn't work for tools that are central to your business.

For what it's worth, most EDA packages have some form of Eagle import. So, in a pinch it's there.

We really do need a industry standard file format. *Sighs*
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #248 on: January 25, 2017, 03:11:09 am »
@timb, leasing is in fact common in the >50 engineers companies. You lease all the expensive tools, flukes, tektronix, keysight to fill your lab. In the meantime the lease company makes sure they are calibrated. And if they break down, they'll swap it and take care of it. Often the brands themselves offer such contract.

There's a huge difference between leasing a scope or a toolbox full of wrenches and pliers and leasing software which cannot be easily and practically instantly transferable to another platform.

If I get fed up with Snap-On, I can go buy some one else's wrenches and not lose a single day in productivity.

If I get fed up with Tektronix, I can buy or lease Aglient, Yokogawa, LeCroy or a half dozen other vendors without losing much productivity.

If I get fed up with my EDA software, I'm well and truly f'd because it takes weeks to get up to speed and possibly months to get all my libraries, scripts and other odds and ends sorted.

You can't compare the these things to leasing your EDA software.
 
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Online Jeroen3

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #249 on: January 25, 2017, 06:28:40 am »
Eagle has this huge weak spot in the way it stores files as XML. Everyone can read and import this.
You will know AutoDesk has bad capitalistic intentions when they change this.
 


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