Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 143880 times)

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #425 on: February 19, 2017, 06:00:03 pm »
So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer.

I think you are over-interpreting (mis-interpreting?) Altium's move. CircuitStudio was probably always meant as a vehicle for getting new users on board with the Altium products, with the ultimate goal of getting them to upgrade to Altium Designer if and when their needs grow. Designer must be where Altium earns the serious money, especially from users with support contracts.

Altium now see an opportunity to convert users of larger Eagle licenses straight to Designer, so that's what they try -- why take a detour via the less profitable CircuitStudio?

I expect that CircuitStudio will stay around, as an entry path to Altium's platform, quite independent of this move.

I'm saying what I'm saying after speaking directly with Altium about Circuit Studio. Circuit Studio has virtually no user base.  I wasn't given a number, but the gist of it is, CS never took off.  At $1k a copy, it needs a very large user base just to be financially viable. So, if Altium saw CS as having a future, the logical choice would have been to do what Dave suggested and have Eagle users get a cheap upgrade to CS. The fact that Altium did not do this says that they are quite worried that Eagle will become good enough to cannibalize the portion of AD's user base who needs a professional product, but doesn't use many of the highly specialized features.

Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:02:12 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #426 on: February 19, 2017, 06:12:58 pm »
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.
 
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Online Cerebus

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #427 on: February 19, 2017, 06:28:05 pm »


That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #428 on: February 19, 2017, 06:46:23 pm »
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.

So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #429 on: February 19, 2017, 07:12:45 pm »
So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?

(Shrug) Cost of doing business. 

Historically, I've ponied up for each major version since 4.0.  I've already hacked around the inadequacies of the subcircuit model in the older editions, so I probably wouldn't be looking to upgrade to version 8.   At least not right away.  But when they add features that I find useful, I'm fine with purchasing a new license.  I don't expect something for nothing.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #430 on: February 19, 2017, 08:12:16 pm »
Although no one here is happy about the fact that Eagle is going to cost more, the huge upshot of all this is: professional-grade eCAD is going to cost less.

I couldn't care less what EAGLE costs.  It's always paid for itself around here.  The problem is that they will no longer sell me a license at any price.

So, you prefer to pay $1700 upfront ... again?

I'd pay $1700 up front before I'd pay $65 a month, assuming that $1700 gave me a product I could use for as long as I want. If 20 years from now I want to dust off an old PC and fire it up, I can do that. With rental software it's not even possible.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #431 on: February 19, 2017, 08:17:19 pm »
That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

 

Online ebastler

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #432 on: February 19, 2017, 09:54:57 pm »
I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

If I recall correctly, Cadsoft had something similar by giving you a 50% discount on the next major version (but only if you did not skip a major version). I assume many professional users, and even a significant share of hobbyists, have used this offer.

So Cadsoft had some recurring income from their user base, in a mode where a user could decide at any time to stop paying and just keep using the product as-is -- not unlike the Altium Support &Maintenance contracts.
 

Offline cx05

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #433 on: February 19, 2017, 10:32:01 pm »
I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).
As far as I know, once you first pay for a perpetual AD license, you get subscription for one year. If you want to stay current, you continue your subscription and get a new perpetual license for all versions in the span of your subscription. This is cheaper than purchasing every major version (or maybe even cheaper as buying every 5th). So in a way, it is a service contract, but one you can let run out without impeding your access to old versions.

The point is: If Autodesk had offered a model where you fall back to a perpetual license once your subscription ends, few people would have been as upset as they are now. The problem is that they are forcing their users to go subscription only, even after they said that they wouldn't do this only six months ago.
I think nobody would have seriously complained if they had introduced a subscription that keeps your perpetual license current, as Altium does offer. In fact, this would have been very similar to the upgrade discounts of Cadsoft, except that you have to decide up front whether you want to save money when you upgrade by keeping a subscription.

While I prefer the "old" model of upgrade discounts, I still consider subscriptions in combination with a perpetual license a fair model, since you can use (and continue to use) any version within your subscription period. It's rather unlikely, even for Altium, not to have one decent version within a whole year, so chances are very high that when you buy a perpetual license or renew your subscription, you get one version you can rely on.
Not to mention the fact that Altium offers standalone licenses, which can be used and installed completely off-line (and you are even allowed to used them on two different computers, of course not concurrently).

It's all about having a choice and a fall-back plan. Altium and other vendors offer that, Autodesk doesn't.
I think it is short sighted to think you can force your customers into one model that doesn't suit their needs. It might work for a short time, but you lose customers and reputation in the long run.
Autodesk made that decision while being a big profitable company with lots of cash reserves. If they don't want to invest into their new product, why should I?

So, it's official.  Altium correctly realizes that Autodesk Eagle is a gun pointed right at their head. Circuit Studio is effectively dead, and the upgrade path is straight to Designer.
Well, ECAD has some nasty problems to get right before you have a good product. I don't see why Autodesk as a competitor would be any worse for Altium than Cadence, Mentor, Zuken and a few dozen others. True, Altium currently doesn't offer the high-end packages Cadence and Mentor offer and has MCAD as their strong point, but they are also far ahead of the ECAD part of Eagle.
Given the list of deficits (see my post earlier), I don't expect Eagle to reach the Altium level in the next few years. If Autodesk are sure about the success of their future versions, why don't they invest into their product? Why do they make their users "rent" the unfinished product and finance the development up front? And even if they offer a good product eventually, their unreliable manner of doing business has made them a no go for me. I wouldn't even consider their MCAD packages now, after all they did here.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #434 on: February 20, 2017, 12:43:23 am »
Yes with any kind of productivity software a fallback is mandatory. Especially if used in a business, the cost of the software can end up being trivial compared to the investment in the content produced. I'm not about to invest my time creating libraries and PCB designs in a product that I can't access unless I continue to pay. Not gonna happen.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #435 on: February 20, 2017, 12:45:56 am »
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #436 on: February 20, 2017, 01:24:40 am »
That ought to give anybody who's solely relying  (i.e. Autodesk) on a rental model for EDA tools pause for thought. Given a choice Altium Designer users spent $33.7M on perpetual licenses versus $2.2M on rental (term based licenses), that's a ratio of 15:1.

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room which are the AD subscriptions - I suppose that are the "service contracts". So Altium doesn't need to "rent" AD when they have over 50% of recurring income from service contracts (which Eagle doesn't have).

You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee. There's no elephant in the room, or if there is, it's probably plush, 6" tall and called Maisie.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #437 on: February 20, 2017, 02:23:09 am »
You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee.

In addition to the numbers I  posted above, it should be noted that the subscription licenses might include new perpetual licenses for that year, because you get a years subscription with a perpetual license.

 

Offline nazcalines

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #438 on: February 20, 2017, 04:10:48 am »
I paid less than $1k last year for a perpetual Eagle license without autorouter. I plan on using it for the next 10 years. I'm going to literally save something like $7000 over this time period vs renting.

~$1k upfront was a bargain.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #439 on: February 20, 2017, 10:36:28 am »
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think
Talking about CS, did that lottery already take place, I might have missed the drawing  :(
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/giveaway-altium-circuitstudio-licenses/
 

Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #440 on: February 20, 2017, 12:16:53 pm »
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think

Hmm... This is very interesting, indeed, and a clever promotion that gives me renewed respect for Altium.

 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #441 on: February 20, 2017, 02:35:38 pm »
And yep, offer available for Circuit Studio as well until the end of March.
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/
$500 off, so half price at $499.
They might get a lot of taker for that one I think

Isn't this the same as the free CircuitMaker, with the difference that all projects are open to the public in CircuitMaker?
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Offline janoc

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #442 on: February 20, 2017, 03:08:53 pm »
You completely missed the point; which is, given a free choice between a rental and perpetual license models people overwhelmingly opted for the perpetual license. If I was Autodesk, only offering a rental model, that would scare me. Maintenance fees (which, let us not forget, are optional) are neither here nor there in that choice, except that (I presume) rental licenses include an implicit maintenance fee. There's no elephant in the room, or if there is, it's probably plush, 6" tall and called Maisie.

No I didn't - I understand your point well. However, given that the subscription revenue is more than 50%, even if it is optional, the clients are obviously still taking it, finding it necessary - even though strictly speaking they don't have to. So they are still "renting" the software in a way.

My point is that you, IMO, cannot draw the conclusion you are trying to draw from this - it is not an apples to apples comparison with the way Eagle is sold.

Otherwise I agree with you - software that is licensed subscription only with no way to keep the current version as long as needed is simply a no-go and I am not sure what Autodesk was smoking here.

 

Offline kaz911

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #443 on: February 20, 2017, 04:24:37 pm »

Isn't this the same as the free CircuitMaker, with the difference that all projects are open to the public in CircuitMaker?

No CS is a cut down version of the real Altium designer - that actually works offline. There are some really stupid issues - like it cant open Altium Designer PCB files (but schematics works ok) - some features have been crippled without considering after-effects... But apart from features downhill creep it is the same as Altium Designer which CircuitMaker is absolutely not.
 

Offline plazma

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #444 on: February 21, 2017, 11:20:21 am »
Nice.... 500$ is within my limit. Is there any annual bug fix update costs etc.?
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #445 on: February 21, 2017, 03:01:31 pm »
I've already mostly migrated to KiCad. I would bitch about how clunky some things are, but I realize it's only because I'm used to Eagle as a comparison.

As to the guy working to stir you all up, I'd suggested setting him to ignore, but it doesn't look like the forums offer that feature.  :-//
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #446 on: February 21, 2017, 06:28:31 pm »
I've already mostly migrated to KiCad. I would bitch about how clunky some things are, but I realize it's only because I'm used to Eagle as a comparison.

As to the guy working to stir you all up, I'd suggested setting him to ignore, but it doesn't look like the forums offer that feature.  :-//

Why?  I think that $500 for a seat of CircuitStudio is a brilliant move on Altium's part, shows clear commitment to CS as a platform,  and at that price, makes learning CS and its quirks  worth doing - if Altium fixes some of the showstopper bugs.

There's nothing I like better than a good horse race.

CS is so close to Designer, that someone who wanted to go into PCB design could rightly claim proficiency in Designer. Not a bad thing to be able to stick on the resume for $500....

And as an agent for The Man, I try to present the logical, commercial side of the discussion occasionally. It's not meant to upset you. It's just business.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 06:31:47 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline Agent86

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #447 on: February 21, 2017, 08:53:40 pm »
I think that $500 for a seat of CircuitStudio is a brilliant move on Altium's part, shows clear commitment to CS as a platform, and at that price, makes learning CS and its quirks worth doing - if Altium fixes some of the showstopper bugs.
I agree.  Since I already have an EAGLE license, I'm going to spring the money for CS.  A year from now, I will have spent about the same as if I had signed up for an EAGLE subscription, but then I'll have *two* perpetual licenses...   8)
 

Offline EBRAddict

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #448 on: February 22, 2017, 02:28:50 pm »
That Circuit Studio offer was well timed.  ;D  I spent a half-hour on the trial putting together a board, it seemed pretty painless--provided I referenced the YouTube videos floating around to figure out the menu structure. I need to spend some more time investigating the available libraries and constructing my own devices. So far it looks promising for the hobbyist type work I do.
 
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Offline plazma

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #449 on: February 22, 2017, 03:36:36 pm »
Latest Eagle seem to hang easily if you switch between manual and follow-me routing.
 
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