The Autodesk Eagle edition

[Agent86]

Sam Sattel, who worked at Altium from 2000 until September of 2016, now works for Autodesk. Here's an article he wrote that compares Eagle's new licensing to the airline industry, and says that all other PCB CAD companies are now playing second fiddle to Eagle and will be stuck playing catch-up for many years to come: http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/the-eagle-effect-how-the-eda-industry-has-been-changed-forever/

It's a long article that will be a favorite of anyone who loves the word "disruptive."

Wow, you're not kidding, that guy is proud of that word!

Wonder how long it will be before they delete the comment on that blog.  It says:

dougR6AS9 says:
March 9, 2017 at 12:14 pm
Nice spin, Sam, hope you got a bonus for this article! Unfortunately, the main “disruption” has been between Autodesk and long-term Cadsoft EAGLE users.

So anyway, if it’s free forever, where can I download a copy?

And a minor clarification: KiCad is also cross-platform.

[ehughes]

 10k for a fully featured tool (Altium ,etc) is low compared to the cost of an engineer.

It is all spin at this point.   Eagle is not in the "mid level" category as it is not on the RADAR of the companies they are referring to.     It is a low end tool.   It is good for them to talk smack but they need a tool to back it up with. Eagle is not that tool!   It is still glorified mspaint.exe with a gerber generator.

I still think that end game is they will retain the name and the file format.   Eagle as it is today will have to die to achieve their sales and marketing goals.



 

[james_s]

I just don't see it happening, Altium, OrCad and a few others have the high end market pretty much locked up, trying to break into that is going to be like trying to break into the smartphone market. There just isn't room for another major player.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I just don't see it happening, Altium, OrCad and a few others have the high end market pretty much locked up, trying to break into that is going to be like trying to break into the smartphone market. There just isn't room for another major player.

Unless that player had something really special to offer, and not just a rehash of a very dated package.
From what I've seen of it, I imagine they are taking business from Solidworks and others with Fusion360, with a low entry cost. To do the same in the ( much smaller) PCB market they'd only have stood a chance by starting from scratch with the cash they spent on Eagle.

[rx8pilot]

My Altium rep called again today to remind me they are offering Designer for $6k including the 2-day class. I don't want to spend the $$ for a few more months though.

[janoc]

Unless that player had something really special to offer, and not just a rehash of a very dated package.
From what I've seen of it, I imagine they are taking business from Solidworks and others with Fusion360, with a low entry cost. To do the same in the ( much smaller) PCB market they'd only have stood a chance by starting from scratch with the cash they spent on Eagle.

Probably not even that. I am using Fusion360 for my private stuff and we have bought a subscription at work for doing the occasional CAD work we need, but Fusion360 has all the same issues as Eagle now - online only saving (but you can export/backup your document), constantly changing so you are a guinea pig/beta tester, no way to have a perpetual license nor a stable version.

That is unlikely to be a competition to Solidworks, more like capturing the entry level market that hasn't been served before by a similarly capable tool - all those "makers", 3D printer users, hobbyists and such that were either using FreeCAD or pirated/student versions of Solidworks or some other software. Fusion actually includes features explicitly targeting these users, like CAM export for 3D printers and manufacturing services. And for Autodesk it is a good platform for betatesting ideas for their flagship products, such as Inventor or AutoCAD.

[ebastler]

Eagle [...] is still glorified mspaint.exe with a gerber generator.

Come on! All of us are critical enough of Eagle, and well aware of its limitations. But that absurd statement will cost you some credibility points.

[hammy]

Years ago, in 1997, there was a book "PCB Design Using AutoCAD" (ISBN: 9780080514833). Wasn't there also an extension for electrical schematics?
Found it .. still alive ... here we are: http://www.autodesk.de/products/autocad-electrical/overview

Maybe they develop now the "eagle extension" for Autocad and customers can upgrade. 

Time will tell.
 

[james_s]

Microsoft was eager to join the smartphone revolution for a long time but look at how well that worked out. It's very difficult to break into a market that already is dominated by multiple mature players. Eagle had a niche in the hobbyist/prosumer/very small company arena but they have thrown that under the bus chasing bigger fish that have already been caught.

[XFDDesign]

Well. It has been about 17 years since I've read something from an industry professional who believes that money is in endless supply and therefore almost any cost is actually no cost.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Wow.  That blog post is an impressive exercise in "trying too hard."

Yeah, I think he was trying to convince himself more than the readers.

Sam talks about the "Southwest Airlines business model", which encompasses a number of things (single airplane type, no hubs, no fees) but can be simplified as "low cost". But Autodesk seem to be taking the opposite approach of Southwest, rather than a simple one-off fee, they seem to be going the "add on fees" route which overall increase total cost to the customer.

Southwest are resisting pressure from shareholders and analysts to start adding fees. Southwest management insist that putting customers before shareholders is their strategy. Autodesk can say what they like, but their actions speak louder.

[james_s]

Yeah, I think he was trying to convince himself more than the readers.

Sam talks about the "Southwest Airlines business model", which encompasses a number of things (single airplane type, no hubs, no fees) but can be simplified as "low cost". But Autodesk seem to be taking the opposite approach of Southwest, rather than a simple one-off fee, they seem to be going the "add on fees" route which overall increase total cost to the customer.

Southwest are resisting pressure from shareholders and analysts to start adding fees. Southwest management insist that putting customers before shareholders is their strategy. Autodesk can say what they like, but their actions speak louder.

I don't fly often but when I do fly, Southwest is one of two choices I use almost exclusively. I can't speak for everyone, but if they start adding fees I will stop flying Southwest. I don't need the absolute lowest price, but I hate being nickel & dimed and playing games with fees and hidden costs.

[macegr]

Airline travel was already an ephemeral service, too. You aren't buying a product that generates IP that you need to be able to access and use for an unspecified amount of time later.

If Southwest followed the Autodesk model, they'd go out of business immediately. Throwing people out of the plane mid-flight if they're late paying their monthly air travel fee isn't popular with customers.

[H.O]

If Southwest followed the Autodesk model, they'd go out of business immediately. Throwing people out of the plane mid-flight if they're late paying their monthly air travel fee isn't popular with customers.

Or giving the travelers their checked in baggage back with a padlock on it. Saying, here's a list of YOUR items in YOUR bag and you're free to view this list as much as you want but if you want to open the bag and access your items you have to pay - and if you don't keep on paying we're coming back with that lock.

Yeah, Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.

[Cervisia]

Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.

… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897 

[daqq]

I've read the article... and I finally get to use this quote:

That guys' so full of shit it's a wonder his eyes don't turn brown. 💩

[Cerebus]

Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.

… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897 

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.

In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.

[Karel]

I expect Jorge Garcia here any moment to do some damage control...

[madires]

Hopefully Autodesk's management starts to understand why the subscription model forces a lot of customers to look for another EDA package. They've screwed up Eagle completely and lost all their credibility. A ^2 for that!

[james_s]

Their credibility was vaporized in one fell swoop when they lied about their intentions and said subscription model was not being considered, that was only a few months before they rolled out the subscription only thing. You can't tell me they didn't know full well that's what the plan was back before they said it wasn't.

[GlowingGhoul]

Someone should check if anyone at Autodesk recently bought a lot of Altium stock, because this debacle has been a fantastic guerilla marketing scheme for CircuitStudio.

[MarkL]

Autodesk EAGLE doesn't hold your files hostage per-se, they're just making sure you can't work in them without continuously handing them money.

… or without an internet connection, or a license server query mechanism that Autodesk has proven to be completely reliable: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-8-0-2-blank-screen-on-load/td-p/6906897 

Note that, at the time of writing, Autodesk still haven't fixed this and the customers (multiple) concerned haven't been able to get a login to Eagle for over two weeks.

In my professional life, if that customer was me and it was holding up production work for over two weeks Autodesk wouldn't be talking to me, they wouldn't be talking to the Chief Executive, they'd be talking to the company's lawyers.

My reading of the EULA is pretty clear that Autodesk is not liable for anything more than the purchase price of the license (secs. 5 and 7, US version):

  http://www.autodesk.com/company/legal-notices-trademarks/software-license-agreements

Plus sec. 6 which hints at "you knew what you were getting into".

Autodesk has a market cap of $18B and an annual revenue of $2B.  Good luck having your company lawyer argue against Autodesk's army of lawyers.  And if your company already has an army of lawyers, you're likely already using a big-time package and not Eagle.  It's a no-win scenario for small companies.

Cadsoft Eagle is dead.  Long live Eagle 7.7.

[ebastler]

Yawn...

I still dislike Autodesk's move to the subscription model as much as I disliked it when it was announced. And yes, I also fully intend to stick with my permanent 7.x license, and have a close look at the alternatives.

But it seems that we have been going round in circles for weeks in this thread, without adding anything new to the discussion. Is this just to make sure that the thread stays at the top of the Eagle forum, so sporadic visitors don't overlook it and become aware of Autodesk's appaling move? Maybe one of the moderators could make this thread sticky and pin it to the top of the list, to save us the bother of permanent repetitions? 

Or maybe this is our self-help and support group, and we still need to talk to cope with the pain... 

[macegr]

Someone should check if anyone at Autodesk recently bought a lot of Altium stock, because this debacle has been a fantastic guerilla marketing scheme for CircuitStudio.

Very interesting thought.

• Does Altium provide stock options to employees? (Yes, they have an employee stock purchase plan, stock options, and equity incentives)
• Did Sam Sattel (ex-Altium employee, 16 year career) purchase significant holdings via Altium's employee stock purchase plan?
• Was Sam required to divest himself of all Altium holdings before he started working for Autodesk 6 months ago?
• Does Sam remain in close contact with anyone else who could purchase or has purchased large amounts of Altium stock?

I have no idea, just asking questions here 

Nobody likes signing same-industry non-compete clauses in employment contracts, but holy heck this is precisely why companies have them. Although in this case Altium would be poorly served to enforce it 

[Karel]

2.1.3 Territory. Except as otherwise authorized in writing by Autodesk, the licenses granted in this Agreement are granted only for the Territory. Nothing in this Agreement permits Licensee (including, without limitation, Licensee’s Personnel, if any) to Install or Access the Licensed Materials outside of the Territory.

37 “Territory” (a) means the country, countries or jurisdiction(s) specified in the License Identification, or (b) if there is no such License Identification, or no country or jurisdiction is specified in the License Identification, means the country in which Licensee acquires a license to the Autodesk Materials. If the License Identification specifies, or Licensee acquires the Autodesk Materials in, a member country of the European Union or the European Free Trade Association, Territory means all the countries of the European Union and the European Free Trade Association.

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html

What have they been smoking? I can't install it on a laptop and use it abroad?