anyone know of a cheap pcb fab that can do 4/4 for proto ?

[free_electron]

i'm looking for an 'itead' or 'oshpark' price on a fab house that can do 4 mil track and gap for proto's.

that seems to be very hard to find. once you dip below 5mil the price explodes...

[janekm]

http://pcb.hqew.net claims to be the English-language frontend for hqpcb.com which is one of the more popular prototype PCB factories in China (they could be an agent... hard to tell). Around $15 for a basic 4/4 board (but oddly shipping to the US is very expensive through them). You could also go through a service like http://www.hackvana.com/store/ which act as a reseller of the same factory's service (most likely).

[free_electron]

Great !  beats the 500$ the local shop quoted for 5 boards by far. :  150$ (including shipping)

[Christopher]

Have bookmarked them. Can you let us know how you get on, Vincent?

I am using Quick-teck in the UK (china re-sellers) at the moment which seems to be going well at work for my protoboards but these guys look a lot cheaper.

[nctnico]

Great !  beats the 500$ the local shop quoted for 5 boards by far. :  150$ (including shipping)

Eurocircuits charges about the same for 80x100 (half euro card). With carefull selection the prices goes up to 200 euro for a 4 layer board but you'll have the boards delivered in less than 2 weeks.

[free_electron]

With 4 mil track and gap ?
4 layer boards.

I have need boards 10x10cm

I can wait 2 weeks, no problem.

Ill check eurocircuits again, but they were always horribly expensive

-EDIT- just did. 

1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )
135$ at HQEW exactly the way i want it + 42$ shipping ...

4 inch by 4 inch
4 layer
inner and outer track and gap 3.94 mil ( 4 mils )
drill 10 mils
annular ring 6 mils
1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce
32 mils thick ( 0.8 mm board )

[miguelvp]

Apparently these guys that just showed up in the forum can do 3mil traces, not sure about other parameters but up to 12 layers, only price someone found in there was 10 5"x5" for $120 but unsure if those are 3mil spec

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/pcbjoint-pcb-supplier-in-china/

But I know nothing of them, actually I didn't even visit their site.

Edit: here are their capabilities, but I can't see how to get the price without registering.
http://www.pcbjoint.com/Info2.aspx

[Monkeh]

With 4 mil track and gap ?
4 layer boards.

I have need boards 10x10cm

I can wait 2 weeks, no problem.

Ill check eurocircuits again, but they were always horribly expensive

-EDIT- just did. 

1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )
135$ at HQEW exactly the way i want it + 42$ shipping ...

4 inch by 4 inch
4 layer
inner and outer track and gap 3.94 mil ( 4 mils )
drill 10 mils
annular ring 6 mils
1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce
32 mils thick ( 0.8 mm board )

$270 for one board at Würth: http://www.wedirekt.de/index.php/pcb

Never used them but they have quite the variety of options available.

[tggzzz]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

[Monkeh]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

He's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

[tggzzz]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

He's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

Don't think so, thought it isn't a cler as it might be! From http://www.eurocircuits.com/PCB-Proto-service-default-values
Base copper foil– outer layers 18µm/½oz
Base copper foil– inner layers 35µm/1oz

[Monkeh]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

He's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

Don't think so, thought it isn't a cler as it might be! From http://www.eurocircuits.com/PCB-Proto-service-default-values
Base copper foil– outer layers 18µm/½oz
Base copper foil– inner layers 35µm/1oz

1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce

Go check out their price calculator yourself, they won't do it.

[tggzzz]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

He's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

Don't think so, thought it isn't a cler as it might be! From http://www.eurocircuits.com/PCB-Proto-service-default-values
Base copper foil– outer layers 18µm/½oz
Base copper foil– inner layers 35µm/1oz

1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce

Go check out their price calculator yourself, they won't do it.

We are talking at cross purposes. My question stemmed from:

1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Given the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't think our conversation is going to generate any light!

[8086]

... to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Out of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?
My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

He's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

Don't think so, thought it isn't a cler as it might be! From http://www.eurocircuits.com/PCB-Proto-service-default-values
Base copper foil– outer layers 18µm/½oz
Base copper foil– inner layers 35µm/1oz

1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce

Go check out their price calculator yourself, they won't do it.

We are talking at cross purposes. My question stemmed from:

1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )

Given the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't think our conversation is going to generate any light!

AFAIK, 1/2oz is most common offering for inner layers, or at least something less than 1oz. It is clear that free_electron wants 1oz copper on the inner layers:

1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )
135$ at HQEW exactly the way i want it + 42$ shipping ...

Translation: Eurocircuits can make it close to how he wants it. Except they only use 1/2oz copper on inner layers.

1 ounce copper  on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce

Translation: he wants 1oz copper on all layers, and eurocircuits only provide 1/2oz.

I see no problem with how he has written his post.

[free_electron]

Given the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't think our conversation is going to generate any light!

and what is poorly written about it ? you got all the relevant data. i think the problem is at the other end of the stick.

I want 1 ounce copper on all layers

i wrote  : close to where i want it (only 1/2 ounce on inner layers ) . they can only do 1/2 ounce inner layers.

I need the 1 ounce due to current requirements. And no, i can't make the traces wider. This is a 3 layer coil ( top layer has a shield over it ). board needs to be 0.8mm , and probably even thinner if this is not sensitive enough.

[tggzzz]

Given the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't think our conversation is going to generate any light!

and what is poorly written about it ? you got all the relevant data. i think the problem is at the other end of the stick.

I want 1 ounce copper on all layers

i wrote  : close to where i want it (only 1/2 ounce on inner layers ) . they can only do 1/2 ounce inner layers.

I can tell you've never been involved in writing technical standards nor commercial proposals

You actually wrote the line/sentence "1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )". That can be interpreted as saying that either the way you want it is with 1/2oz on inner layers, or that they only do 1/2oz on inner layers. Since the latter is incorrect, I presumed the former.

You have now clarified that you want 1oz on all layers. Fine. End of discussion.

[free_electron]

Ah, the old 'anything that can be misinterpreted will be misinterpreted in such a way to cause the most harm or to produce a result as far a way as possible of the intended one'

[Howardlong]

Have bookmarked them. Can you let us know how you get on, Vincent?

I am using Quick-teck in the UK (china re-sellers) at the moment which seems to be going well at work for my protoboards but these guys look a lot cheaper.

Their boards are OK-ish, but whatever you do don't use them for assembly, they won't do free issue, but promise to purchase your specific BOM parts sourced from Farnell etc, and then don't. Nearly made me quit my first manufacturing soiree as a result.

[janekm]

Have bookmarked them. Can you let us know how you get on, Vincent?

I am using Quick-teck in the UK (china re-sellers) at the moment which seems to be going well at work for my protoboards but these guys look a lot cheaper.

Their boards are OK-ish, but whatever you do don't use them for assembly, they won't do free issue, but promise to purchase your specific BOM parts sourced from Farnell etc, and then don't. Nearly made me quit my first manufacturing soiree as a result.

And that's the point that made me think they may be an agent rather than actually the English frontend to hqpcb... They offer assembly service which hqpcb (the Chinese one) don't. But well it's kind of useful that they translated the web form for working out the price (though there's some translation errors, plugged via is actually just tented via, half hole is castellations...)

It's not too easy to find an agent that will accept free issue components since most agents make a lot of their profit on the components. Of course there's also the hassle of getting components shipped and having to pay the import duties.

[tggzzz]

Ah, the old 'anything that can be misinterpreted will be misinterpreted in such a way to cause the most harm or to produce a result as far a way as possible of the intended one'

Yes

[Howardlong]

It's not too easy to find an agent that will accept free issue components since most agents make a lot of their profit on the components. Of course there's also the hassle of getting components shipped and having to pay the import duties.

Yes, I understand all that, believe me, I've been there. But it's not half as much hassle of a 50% yield due to using shit parts like using dodgy 1.5v regulators dumping 5v onto the most expensive part on the board; or receiving a complaint from your assembler about a connector "being the wrong size", when they'd deliberately purchased the wrong one because it was cheaper. That, my friend, is hassle!

[nctnico]

Given the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't think our conversation is going to generate any light!

and what is poorly written about it ? you got all the relevant data. i think the problem is at the other end of the stick.

I want 1 ounce copper on all layers

i wrote  : close to where i want it (only 1/2 ounce on inner layers ) . they can only do 1/2 ounce inner layers.

I need the 1 ounce due to current requirements. And no, i can't make the traces wider. This is a 3 layer coil ( top layer has a shield over it ). board needs to be 0.8mm , and probably even thinner if this is not sensitive enough.

Eurocircuits not offering a combination of features is often a sign on the wall a PCB will be hard to fabricate. You want traces which are 100um wide and 35um high. That is going to take a huge effort to etch it properly hence the thinner copper layers for these track widths to increase yields. I suggest to use wider traces and more layers to avoid a production nightmare.

Oh, and you wanting 1oz copper was completely clear to me 

[Corporate666]

Vincent,

Check out Myro (www.myropcb.com).

They are a N. American front for a Chinese fab plant, but I've been using them for 10+ years and never a problem (well, couple of small issues out of many dozens of orders that were handled well).

Anyway, just priced out a 10cmx10cm, 4-layer, 1oz on all layers (inc. internal), 4mil trace/space, green, HASL.

10 day lead time is $247 for ten boards (price is for all ten, not each).  $272 if you want immersion gold plating.

Thing I like about Myro is they do some of the more advanced stuff, like resin or copper filled vias, they let you choose the amount of copper on your internal and external layers, they let you choose your soldermask and silkscreen color, e-test, via plating thickness, routed shapes, countersinks, HASL/immersion gold/tin/silver/OSP.  You can also pick your substrate, FR-1, FR-4, CEM1, CEM3, Rogers, Aluminum.  And unless you pick some really weird option (like multi layer aluminum PCB), it will quote you online - no waiting for emails.

You do have to create an account, but in 10 years of orders I've never gotten a single spam mail. 

IIRC you are @ Tesla now... the owner @ Myro is a guy named Charles, if you have a fair amount of potential work I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.

No affiliation, just a happy customer.

[free_electron]

Eurocircuits not offering a combination of features is often a sign on the wall a PCB will be hard to fabricate. You want traces which are 100um wide and 35um high. That is going to take a huge effort to etch it properly hence the thinner copper layers for these track widths to increase yields. I suggest to use wider traces and more layers to avoid a production nightmare.

i know the aspect ratio is rather high but it is doable. Plenty of companies can do it ( even in the far east )

wider traces more layers is out of the question. this is a printed inductor changing geometry changes the inductance and that is a no-go. i need a specific inductance for a specific current. Design is driven by the manufacturer of the circuitry. their demo boards use that geometry. all i need is replicate. messing with the coil is out of the question as it changes the behavior of the system.

[free_electron]

IIRC you are @ Tesla now... the owner @ Myro is a guy named Charles, if you have a fair amount of potential work I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.

this is for me personal. nothing to do with my 'real job'. We got suppliers there but those are way out of my price bracket.