Bad experience with JLCPCB and DHL – things you should know before ordering PCBs

[3dgeo]

Finally, DHL themselves contacted me, I wrote all arguments on why we end up in this situation and why it isn't my fault.
I hope I pointed out clearly enough to them that I'm OK with them charging extra for customs clearance, I'm not OK they do not inform about this up front, even on their own page.
If we will not sort this out parcel will get back to JLCPCB in 20 days. I'm letting this happen.
I'm so curious what JLCPCB will do in this case, cos now JLCPCB involvement basically is "not our problem, were celebrating new year..." – well, they didn't directly said this, but it's in the air. Tho I doubt JLCPCB will leave this like that, probably people who can sort this out is on vacation due to China new year.
It's a huge waste of time, but things like this tests big companies – are they too big to care? Will see...

[Kasper]

I've had a few employers in Canada say never use dhl.

I recently had parts delayed a week because dhl held them at the border waiting for me to pay.  I was expecting to pay when they arrived because that is what all other couriers I've used do.

[jpmkm]

I absolutely love JLCPCB+DHL.  I've ordered from seeedstudio and I was happy with them, but JLC is just faster.  I've never had issues with customs or fees or anything(I'm in the US). 

[3dgeo]

I absolutely love JLCPCB+DHL.  I've ordered from seeedstudio and I was happy with them, but JLC is just faster.  I've never had issues with customs or fees or anything(I'm in the US).

EU customs is a nightmare, at least in some countries. Side note – if I try to clear customs myself I have to pay over 50 eur to get permission to do so and after that I'm risking getting a fine if I fill documents incorrectly 

I updated original post.

[emece67]

.

[langwadt]

Hi,

Here (Spain, not sure if this is the same in the remaining EU), law says that me, as an individual, can cope with the import procedures and pay only the import taxes. I have done this many, many times in the past. But, from some years ago, it has become more and more difficult, as the first notice you get about your shipment is that it has been managed by some 3rd party agent (no matter if it comes from DHL/UPS/... or even the state post service "Correos") that will perform such import procedures and will charge you its fare (in top of the import taxes).

DHL/UPS etc. say that you can notify them, prior to the entrance of the shipment in the destination country, that you will be in charge of the import procedure, but they always forget/lose such notifications and always deliver your shipment to such 3rd party custom agents.

That is, DHP/UPS/state post force you to contract a 3rd party for a service you have not demanded and that you can do by yourself. Well, in fact, they contract it in your behalf and without your authorization.

Ugly, isn't it?

just buy from an EU country, problem solved

[emece67]

.

[3dgeo]

For that thing to happen, you must find the product you want inside the EU.

As many, you are missing the point – I'm OK with extra charges IF I get notified about them BEFORE I made a decision. How can You make a decision if You don't know final price?
Now I'm pushed in the corner and forced to pay or lose parcel with no other option, thats the problem. It's not even about the money (I will lose way more by refusing to pay), it's about being forced to do things that You weren't informed about. I just can't give up and pay this fee, it's wrong, I feel deceived, for most this probably isn't an issue, but it is for me.

[ebastler]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...)

Sorry, but this was the point where your argument collapsed, I think.

DHL's request for customs clearance fees is essentially an offer of a service. You can chose to decline that offer and handle customs clearing yourself. So what is you complaint?

(My only complaint is that DHL don't make this option very clear, and word their "offer" in a strange way. Obviously they would prefer that you use their services and pay, and hence they are not very transparent about this.)

EDIT: Hmm, this option may in fact not exist for "DHL Express" shipments. At least here in Germany, regular DHL offers the option to deposit your shipment at the customs office for you to clear it and pick it up. Maybe DHL Express does not?

[emece67]

.

[3dgeo]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...)

Sorry, but this was the point where your argument collapsed, I think.

DHL's request for customs clearance fees is essentially an offer of a service. You can chose to decline that offer and handle customs clearing yourself. So what is you complaint?

(My only complaint is that DHL don't make this option very clear, and word their "offer" in a strange way. Obviously they would prefer that you use their services and pay, and hence they are not very transparent about this.)

EDIT: Hmm, this option may in fact not exist for "DHL Express" shipments. At least here in Germany, regular DHL offers the option to deposit your shipment at the customs office for you to clear it and pick it up. Maybe DHL Express does not?

Did You read part where I wrote that if I want to clear customs myself it will cost me over 50 eur? My complain is simple, while I was ordering there wasn't this line: "Customs clearance fee is not included"  Simple as that.

[ebastler]

Did You read part where I wrote that if I want to clear customs myself it will cost me over 50 eur? My complain is simple, while I was ordering there wasn't this line: "Customs clearance fee is not included"  Simple as that.

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

A 50 Euro fee seems quite excessive, btw. If it is really that expensive in your country, then shouldn't you be delighted about the great low-cost deal you get from DHL when they handle it?

[3dgeo]

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

Well it's EU, customs clearance will always be when You import something, so why wouldn't they be included? And if not it's logical to expect it would be declared clearly that it's not. And I think I wrote clear enough that I don't have any issue on paying import taxes.

A 50 Euro fee seems quite excessive, btw. If it is really that expensive in your country, then shouldn't you be delighted about the great low-cost deal you get from DHL when they handle it?

Thats the point, it's not a deal. I did not make a deal for 3rd party customs clearance or deal to do customs clearance my self, thats THE problem   

[langwadt]

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

Well it's EU, customs clearance will always be when You import something, so why wouldn't they be included? And if not it's logical to expect it would be declared clearly that it's not. And I think I wrote clear enough that I don't have any issue on paying import taxes.

you are buying from outside the EU so of course you have to pay import tax, and what would a Chinese company know or care about taxes
of other countries?

[3dgeo]

langwadt - it's not an import tax, I'm OK paying taxes and I do not expect they should be included in delivery price.

[Yansi]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

[3dgeo]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

If I order shipping I expect one of these: caries to ship and handle all the fuss on the way OR clearly notify me upfront that some services are not included and will cost extra. Is it really that much to ask? According to your logic if you buy food you have to make sure yourself that it does not contain any poison and kill you. I don't see any logic or argument here.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

I repeat again – it's not about customs clearance amount, they can charge as much as they want as long they inform me up front so I can pick caries that fits my needs.

Also I notices people mix custom taxes and customs clearance fee – I will make an edit on my main post to clarify this.

[Deni]

This is not directly related to the topic, but similar in a way:
A month ago I ordered some stuff via Texas Instrument on-line store. I've done it in the past (5-6 times just last year) and the procedure was simple - they would ship the order from USA, it will arrive to my country (EU member state), carrier will do the customs paperwork and that was it. The whole process took 4-5 days, usually. And for larger orders, shipping was free.
Well - not anymore. Now they shipped the order by Schenker (cargo company, ocean freight !) to Netherlands and then from there by TNT to the destination. Took almost 2 weeks. But the most interesting part is that they charged my credit card with Dutch V.A.T. (although my company is registered business and has valid EU VAT number !). Also, they initially charged credit card with net amount, cancelled that transactions 3 days later and charged with new value (net+VAT), which I never actually authorized. I complained to their customer service, but since they're in the USA I guess they do not understand how the whole VAT stuff wokrks between EU countries. They even claimed that I was notified about that VAT nonsense during ordering process, which I was not. I even got confirmation e-mail clearly stating that the there's no VAT - just goods and shipping.
 
Nevertheless, they stick to their version and all I can do is to hate them. What a mess...

[2N3055]

This is not directly related to the topic, but similar in a way:
A month ago I ordered some stuff via Texas Instrument on-line store. I've done it in the past (5-6 times just last year) and the procedure was simple - they would ship the order from USA, it will arrive to my country (EU member state), carrier will do the customs paperwork and that was it. The whole process took 4-5 days, usually. And for larger orders, shipping was free.
Well - not anymore. Now they shipped the order by Schenker (cargo company, ocean freight !) to Netherlands and then from there by TNT to the destination. Took almost 2 weeks. But the most interesting part is that they charged my credit card with Dutch V.A.T. (although my company is registered business and has valid EU VAT number !). Also, they initially charged credit card with net amount, cancelled that transactions 3 days later and charged with new value (net+VAT), which I never actually authorized. I complained to their customer service, but since they're in the USA I guess they do not understand how the whole VAT stuff wokrks between EU countries. They even claimed that I was notified about that VAT nonsense during ordering process, which I was not. I even got confirmation e-mail clearly stating that the there's no VAT - just goods and shipping.
 
Nevertheless, they stick to their version and all I can do is to hate them. What a mess...

I'm sorry to disappoint you but they are right. If you import from USA to EU you pay VAT at point of entry (Netherlands here), or if carrier forwards it to your country, you pay VAT ( PDV kod nas :-)) there, because is where USA goods entered EU. VAT free is only inside EU. Anything coming outside EU has to have VAT applied, and it will be applied to price of goods + transport cost.
That is, unless seller specifies incoterms DPD , which means that all duties(customs, VAT, clearing duties)  are included in price in invoice.
Actually, you did good, because VAT in Netherlands is 21% as opposed to 25% in Croatia...

Regards,

[Yansi]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

If I order shipping I expect one of these: caries to ship and handle all the fuss on the way OR clearly notify me upfront that some services are not included and will cost extra. Is it really that much to ask? According to your logic if you buy food you have to make sure yourself that it does not contain any poison and kill you. I don't see any logic or argument here.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

I repeat again – it's not about customs clearance amount, they can charge as much as they want as long they inform me up front so I can pick caries that fits my needs.

Also I notices people mix custom taxes and customs clearance fee – I will make an edit on my main post to clarify this.

I am not sure, but it seems you are the one confused here.

What I am familiar with, is the following:

a) you pay VAT if the value of goods is over some small amount (22€).
b) customs import tax is also applicable if items value is over €150. (customs imprt tax can be 0 up to some 20% or so, depending on the category)
c) you pay the carrier for the service of providing you the customs clearance. (Someone has to do the paperwork, right?)

They have no legal duties to inform you upfront, that you pay for customs clearance. You are the one to read the terms and conditions for importing goods.

Also, if I remember how the process starts, is that you get an email and/or phone notification up front (so in fact they ARE informing you up front and giving you options), that the goods imported is eligible for customs processing. They let you choose up front to:

1)  have them deal with it on your behalf (you provide them your EORI and details about the items imported), then pay extra for this service

2) or you just go to whatever hell hole you need to to do the paperwork yourself.

This is how it works and I do not see any legal transgressions on their side.

Or have I missed something?

[3dgeo]

They have no legal duties to inform you upfront, that you pay for customs clearance. You are the one to read the terms and conditions for importing goods.

Your statement that they do not have legal duties to inform me and I'm the one that has to read therms and the conditions is self-contradicting, because if they do not have to inform me they do not have to write therms and conditions, so how do I suppose to find out? We just got to the bottom of the issue – JLCPCB did not provide any information. Mind You that official DHL statement is that JLCPCB was responsible for informing me about services JLCPCB sells, and I do agree with DHL, JLCPCB got the money, not DHL. Further more, what should be more experience on international shipping – company that deals with thousands or more international customers per day or random person like me who has practically no experience what comes to international shipping?
I see nothing complicated here – if someone sells service, they might have no legal duties to do so but they have to provide all information about the service, otherwise whats is the difference between them and scammers?

[Yansi]

Does your government have any duty to inform you about your local law? Probably very likely not. You have the look it up yourself. You can't make apologies because you have not known about some specific laws.

Same applies here. Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website.  If I could find them when I was beginning with importing more stuff from China, you could probably find them too.

JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. They do not have to inform you about customs processing, they no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  They have just paid the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC.

Also understand that the import fees (including customs clearance fees) may vary wildly depending on the country, product type or quantity. That is none JLCPCB business. Leave them alone.

If you would order something from eBay from for example the US of A, you pay the shipping, and THEN you pay extra if customs processing fees are applied.

Have you ever seen the notice there under the auctions that do not use the GSP (Global Shipping Program - which by the way sucks, because is very slow and often more expensive than to deal customs directly)

International Shipping - items may be subject to customs processing depending on the item's declared value.
Sellers set the item's declared value and must comply with customs declaration laws.
As the buyer, you should be aware of possible:
- delays from customs inspection.
- import duties and taxes which buyers must pay.
- brokerage fees payable at the point of delivery.

It does not matter from where you bought an item. Additional import charges are up to the transport company. International sellers do not care about your import laws or taxes. You are the importer, not the seller. That is your duty to fix that yourself.

(See - JLCPCB have never stated anywhere, that your are paying for customs clearance service at your destination).

I see nothing complicated here – if someone sells service, they might have no legal duties to do so but they have to provide all information about the service, otherwise whats is the difference between them and scammers?

Well of course there is absolutely nothing complicated. It does not matter if JLC PCB, ALLPCB or other completely different international seller. It could happen with any of them. So it is unfair that you spit on JLC, because you are clearly the one who was not educated enough before purchasing internationally.

The fact that it might not get caught with different seller, is that they (Chinese guys) almost every time give fraudulent information about the item prices. Now if you got caught with this one, you might get into some serious trouble. VAT shortening is a quite heavily punished crime.

[3dgeo]

Does your government have any duty to inform you about your local law? Probably very likely not. You have the look it up yourself. You can't make apologies because you have not known about some specific laws.

Same applies here. Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website.  If I could find them when I was beginning with importing more stuff from China, you could probably find them too.

JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. They do not have to inform you about customs processing, they no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  They have just paid the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC.

I know import laws and taxes, I knew there will be custom taxes and customs clearance procedure. What I did not know and was not informed about was that shipping price does not cover customs clearance.

Despite that You totally ignored this quote from DHL official respond:
"...it is absolutly the responsibility of your contract partner, the sender(who again is the direct partner of DHL EXPRESS), to make you aware of the conditions. You made a contract with the sender even though you have been choosing DHL EXPRESS. ..." You stated that Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website, why not link them than? Please do so.

Can You clarify why JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here? I mean I'm their customer, and I'm sure many people that reads this threads are was or will be. Dealing with shipping and customs is a big part of their business they want it or not, even if they outsource it to 3rd party companies. Don't You think that they should care about these things? I don't know, maybe You are right, if so all they have to do is write this in a shipping window " JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. We do not have to inform you about customs processing, we no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  We just pay the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC. Also understand that the import fees (including customs clearance fees) may vary wildly depending on the country, product type or quantity. That is none JLCPCB business. Leave us alone." This is all I needed to know at that point, but I didn't and wasn't informed.

If you would order something from eBay from for example the US of A, you pay the shipping, and THEN you pay extra if customs processing fees are applied.

Have you ever seen the notice there under the auctions that do not use the GSP (Global Shipping Program - which by the way sucks, because is very slow and often more expensive than to deal customs directly)

International Shipping - items may be subject to customs processing depending on the item's declared value.
Sellers set the item's declared value and must comply with customs declaration laws.
As the buyer, you should be aware of possible:
- delays from customs inspection.
- import duties and taxes which buyers must pay.
- brokerage fees payable at the point of delivery.

It's nice You share this information, it brings my point out – Ebay and other places clearly states shipping conditions and/or directly links to them in a carrier page.

It does not matter from where you bought an item. Additional import charges are up to the transport company. International sellers do not care about your import laws or taxes. You are the importer, not the seller. That is your duty to fix that yourself.

(See - JLCPCB have never stated anywhere, that your are paying for customs clearance service at your destination).

All I see is Your temper opinion and no efforts to understand the issue. I don't say that they should care about taxes or import duties, I say that they should make it clear to a customer that they do not care, is it really that hard to understand? Is my English that bad? 

Well of course there is absolutely nothing complicated. It does not matter if JLC PCB, ALLPCB or other completely different international seller. It could happen with any of them. So it is unfair that you spit on JLC, because you are clearly the one who was not educated enough before purchasing internationally.

The fact that it might not get caught with different seller, is that they (Chinese guys) almost every time give fraudulent information about the item prices. Now if you got caught with this one, you might get into some serious trouble. VAT shortening is a quite heavily punished crime.

If other companies do not inform their customers than yes, it could happen to other companies as well, but I can't see how this is relevant to this thread.
I don't spit on anyone, by writing statements like these You are revealing Your lack of education, so please, lets keep this civilized.

Again how's VAT shortening is relevant to any of this?

P.S. Your motivation to defend JLCPCB is astonishing, but I link this thread to JLCPCB staff, I think they can talk for themselves and do better job at it, tho thanks for keeping this thread alive.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Hmm, currently my $2 worth of PCBs from JLCPCB are stuck with DHL, they are asking me to send a form attached with company details to release them. But I am not a company....

I've already paid fees that were two times the cost of the PCBs. The problem seems to be that JLCPCB mislabel the custom declaration, DHL have to follow letter of the law otherwise they get hammered by the government.

Likewise, I don't mind paying legitimate VAT and import duties, I am not trying to evade them. I wish it was just simple and transparent.  People like me get forced to be familiar with INCOTERMS. Anything other than "DDP", expect to pay fees to someone.

I've had hassle with DHL before, I won't be selecting DHL again.

[3dgeo]

Hmm, currently my $2 worth of PCBs from JLCPCB are stuck with DHL, they are asking me to send a form attached with company details to release them. But I am not a company....

I've already paid fees that were two times the cost of the PCBs. The problem seems to be that JLCPCB mislabel the custom declaration, DHL have to follow letter of the law otherwise they get hammered by the government.

Likewise, I don't mind paying legitimate VAT and import duties, I am not trying to evade them. I wish it was just simple and transparent.  People like me get forced to be familiar with INCOTERMS. Anything other than "DDP", expect to pay fees to someone.

I've had hassle with DHL before, I won't be selecting DHL again.

I feel Your pain, DHL are terrible, just You wait while I write what they did to me today :
I payed all extra fees DHL wanted to release my parcel (I finally sort this issue out with JLCPCB, but more on that in my original post). I was informed that if I pay until certain time I will get my parcel today. I did pay in that timeline and send them confirmation from my bank that transaction was made. This morning I'm getting a letter with information that internal rules of DHL states that they can't release parcel until they can see the money in their bank account, it doesn't matter any documents I provide (note that if I falsify bank transfer document I can get to jail, it's usual here to send a bank transaction document so things can move on). Their bank and my bank are not the same and it takes few hours of bank working hours to actually get the money. I ask them to bend the rules this time, but they, as I already knew, didn't care at all. I tried to convince them to sent it out for over an hour, until their shipping vehicle left the facility. And guess what, after less than 15 min (I'm not joking) I'm getting a letter where they state that they received the money and "here's a number to call and find out when your parcel will arrive". They didn't even had a decency to write it themselves that I will not get my parcel for 3 more days due to today being friday.......This company, woooow....    I'm so fed up with this situation...

What comes to Your situation, they probably want to make it as a commercial order so they can charge more for storage (in my country companies pay 5eur/day fee for storing parcel until customs clearance is over, imagine me paying over 100 eur for storage because my parcel was about 20 days). Even tho JLCPCB marked my parcel as a commercial, DHL didn't seemed to care when I sent personal information (at this point I think I should feel really really lucky that they didn't).