Bad experience with JLCPCB and DHL – things you should know before ordering PCBs

[3dgeo]

Hi,

I'll start from the beginning:
my very first commercially made PCBs order was placed on January 23rd. Shipping price of 33 USD (after 17 USD shipping discount) with DHL (DHL EXPRESS) looked a bit pricey, but still, as a manufacturer I picked JLCPCB (5 boards).
Those boards are for product prototype and while ordering I made a comment that If they can't ship those boards fast enough they should cancel my order. Customer support assured me that there will be no problems, and I got confirmation from DHL that I will get my parcel on January 30.
And here we go...
I get a call form someone that does not introduce themselves or their company and claims that they are DHL "partners" and ask me to pay 20 EUR for document preparation for customs clearance. I want to make this very clear: I'm in EU, so I knew there will be extra import taxes such as VAT and customs tax, I'm OK with paying import taxes set by government, those 20EUR are NOT an import tax. As I found out DHL shared my shipment data (personal information included) with 3rd party without any warning or asking permission. Further more, in DHL website (http://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/customs_process.html) they claim "Processing several million customs entries is no easy task. DHL Express does that every day for its customers because it acts as a broker on their behalf.
Through the local services we provide to customers everywhere, we are now one of the world's largest customs brokers. In this role, we need to ensure that your customs paperwork is relevant and accurate at all times." – so what gives? Why I was contacted by third party and have to pay extra?

I'm guessing at this point you are thinking – this is not an JLCPCB issue, it's DHL issue. I respectfully disagree – I bought PCB manufacturing AND shipping service from JLCPCB directly. It is my firm belief whom gets the money must assure customer gets all services he paid, in this case shipment as well. But after contacting JLCPCB all I get is this:
...pls contact with your local DHL service – (this is EXACT copy/paste)
Maybe I'm spoiled with EU customer protection, but this is not a response anyone should get, as I said, JLCPCB should step in and sort things out.
There's other couple things I should mention:
I know now that this will be a huge waste of time, and I don't know if it's worth it – even if I get the parcel PCBs may be in bad quality, and from JLCPCB customer support perspective on my current situation I can assume that they will not care as well.
I have no protection as a customer what comes to JLCPCB. And no way I'm paying extra...
Funny thing is that if I order with regular mail I would have got it in a few days anyway, shipping would be around 10-15EUR and customs clearance below 10EUR. Will never deal with DHL, thats for sure.

EDIT:
I realized that most of people do not know what customs clearance and/or customs clearance fee is, so I explain what it is in my country. Customs clearance is a procedure where 1 sheet of paper is filled which contains information about parcel, it's value, sender and receiver information so customs can calculate import taxes which I'm fine paying. Customs clearance fee is NOT an import tax in any form and is not charged by Customs themselves nor Customs gets any part of it, it's a fee (that I know now) is charged by 3rd party to fill that 1 page customs declaration which I thought was included in shipping price (I was not informed up front that it is not included).

UPDATE NR.1
This is my letter to both, DHL and JLCPCB:

Let me share the circumstances we are in this situation:
Imagine buying a product in the store that you need, paying the full price indicated on the price tag. While leaving the store You get stopped and asked to pay extra for what you have not been informed on on a price tag or employees who work in the store. What are your next steps in this situation? There is a logical question - would you buy this product if you were aware of the extra charge in the first place?

Let me give you some facts that are important arguments:
1. I was not informed about the additional customs clearance charge at the seller's website
2. There is no information on additional customs clearance charge on DHL official pages, and DHL states that they provide this service to Your customers, not third parties whom DHL leaked parcel information (personal information included) without informing and/or obtaining permission to do so.

Understand the essence of the problem correctly - I'm not saying DHL can't or shouldn't charge extra for the customs clearance procedure. The problem is that I, as Your client, wasn't informed about this before choosing DHL as a courier.
I would also like to point out that I am aware that there will/may be import taxes such as VAT or customs tax, I do not have any problem on paying these taxes.

DHL response:

"...We regret that you have not been informed of the customs clearance of consignments coming from third countries. ..." and information how to pay extra fee.

At this point I didn't get any response from JLCPCB, they just ignored me.

UPDATE NR.2

Just a reminder, my order was placed (and paid) on January 23th, today is February 12th, almost 3 weeks!

Until now I was trying to contact someone at DHL who can help, everyone I contacted mostly ignored the issue and copy/paste "contact your local DHL". I did expect nothing from DHL at this point, but I contacted Germany DHL – they as well wrote exactly the same "contact your local DHL", but after restating my issue and repeating question if I can get help from someone else than my local DHL they actually read my previews letter and gave me a descent response. Well, there were no signs that they will help, but they officially stated this:
"...it is absolutly the responsibility of your contract partner, the sender(who again is the direct partner of DHL EXPRESS), to make you aware of the conditions. You made a contract with the sender even though you have been choosing DHL EXPRESS. ..." – they basically proved my assumption that seller who gets the money should be responsible, so it's JLCPCB responsibility whom I did not hear back in a while.

UPDATE NR.3

Finally, after 12 days JLCPCB responded:
"...Sometimes you need to pay your import taxes and certain services ,it's up to your country policy . Actually we placed the notification under the "check out " ,did you find that ? ... " – can anyone tell where I should find this? I wanted to respond "Yes I did see that and I'm waisting my and Your time just for fun", NO, I did not see any notification! I just love how NOW DHL and JLCPCB states that there might be an extra fees, where were they before order was made?

I informed JLCPCB that if they do not resolve this situation parcel will be shipped back on Friday and I expect full refund.

They took too long to get back to me, I don't need that parcel anymore, I just really curious how this situation will resolve. If JLCPCB decides to compensate for extra fees I'm ok on keeping PCBs, otherwise I want a refund (will inform how that will go....).

P.S. someone stated that I can do customs clearance myself, yes I can, but to get all papers to do it myself it will cost me above 50 eur.


UPDATE NR.4
I and JLCPCB finally came to an agreement. After vague communication suddenly things changed, I started to get replies in a minutes instead of 24h or more. I can only assume what caused this sudden change, but to be honest I don't care.

But then DHL strike:
I payed all extra fees DHL wanted to release my parcel. I was informed that if I pay until certain time I will get my parcel today. I did pay in that timeline and send them confirmation from my bank that transaction was made. This morning I'm getting a letter with information that internal rules of DHL states that they can't release parcel until they can see the money in their bank account, it doesn't matter any documents I provide (note that if I falsify bank transfer document I can get to jail, it's usual here to send a bank transaction document so things can move on). Their bank and my bank are not the same and it takes few hours of bank working hours to actually get the money. I ask them to bend the rules this time, but they, as I already knew, didn't care at all. I tried to convince them to sent it out for over an hour, until their shipping vehicle left the facility. And guess what, after less than 15 min (I'm not joking) I'm getting a letter where they state that they received the money and "here's a number to call and find out when your parcel will arrive". They didn't even had a decency to write it themselves that I will not get my parcel for 3 more days due to today being friday...... I'm so fed up with this situation...

[JackJones]

I'm guessing at this point you are thinking – this is not an JLCPCB issue, it's DHL issue. I respectfully disagree – I bought PCB manufacturing AND shipping service from JLCPCB directly. It is my firm belief whom gets the money must assure customer gets all services he paid, in this case shipment as well.

There was a ruling by the Finnish consumer advocate (I'm getting ombudsman from the dictionary for this, not entirely sure it's the same thing) that said that if you handle the customs declaration yourself, DHL cannot ask for any extra charges unless those charges were specifically mentioned by the seller. Don't other countries have anything similar you can complain to? If enough people raise the issue they should have a response of some kind.

This is definitely not the first time people complain about DHL, so there should be plenty of people to complain. And it is a valid complaint.

Here's a google translated page of the ruling just in case someone is interested: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kkv.fi%2Fratkaisut-ja-julkaisut%2Fratkaisut%2Farkisto%2F2017%2Fkan-ratkaisut%2Ftullauksen-palvelumaksu%2F

The ruling does bring up this directive: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31993L0013&from=EN

   
irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

[3dgeo]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...), but it's not the point. I have parcels from outside EU before, I have never had to pay extra for customs clearance, usually it's included in shipping price (I'm not talking about import taxes).
I didn't get any warning that customs clearance is not included while ordering this service (and in DHL page they claim they do customs clearance), if I did, I definitely would pick regular mail because it's way cheaper.
Frankly I feel deceived, as I said I may be spoiled by EU customer protection, but I think thing like this should be clearly stated while purchasing a service.

[Doctorandus_P]

Once you get into the more expensive stuff on Aliexpress (Nema 34 motor drivers, stereo microscopes and such) you ofthen see "free shipping" with DHL, or something like EUR 75 shipping with another company. Paying the extra EUR 75 was cheaper than the "free shipping with DHL".

DHL also has it's own tracking numbers. Once your packet is in DHL's hands there is no way to track it untill it pops up at your door. Especially if you have multiple packets underway there is no way to know which is which.

Next time I buy the more expensive stuff from Ali, I will delay paying and contact the seller first for confirmation the packet will not be shipped with DHL.

[3dgeo]

JLCPCB themselves "strongly recommends" to use DHL, I hope they will get back to me and stands behind their recommendation.
It's not about 20Eur at this point, it's about not being clear about service DHL provides and JLCPCB "strongly recommends". DHL claims they "acts as a broker on their behalf" on their official page but do not mention that this service costs extra on their page or on JLCPCB page.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Once your packet is in DHL's hands there is no way to track it untill it pops up at your door.

try this

https://www.17track.net/en/

[Psi]

I avoid DHL wherever possible.

They will often add on the shipping cost when processing shipments for tax purposes. Even when your invoice is from a company with free shipping, and so shipping was already included.
They do this so they can push the value over the threshold where they can start charging import tax and so can therefor also charge the "processing fee"
So if your country has a $400 threshold and you order something for $380 all up (free shipping) they add on the shipping cost to push it over and then charge you.
You can call them up and explain it on the phone and they will agree that it was incorrect but wont do anything about it and say you have to pay anyway.

Never had this problem with UPS/Fedex

[rbm]

I also avoid DHL whenever and wherever possible.  It's the reason I no longer order from JLCPCB.  I like their board quality, price and service level but I refuse to be a hostage to DHL policies and dishonest business practices.

[Psi]

PCBWAY defaults to DHL.
You can change it to another method but if you then change anything else in your order it will switch back to the DHL default
So you have to watch it carefully and check right before paying.

[mrpackethead]

Well, my experience with DHL out of China is that it eats everyone else for service and speed.   I have multiple items coming from china each week, and use DHL all the time.  It works really well for me.    If there is Duty payable. ( where its more than about $400 Value ), then it incurs a clearnace fee of  $NZ22.   

I also ship China --> US, but i only use Fedex.  It works really well.

[Psi]

From China DHL is definitely the best value vs speed.
But the company is still dishonest.

[mrpackethead]

From China DHL is definitely the best value vs speed.
But the company is still dishonest.

I did a quick check last year, and our company received / sent 622 parcels with DHL.   We did not run into a instance of dishonesty with them.  Maybe we were lucky?

[Dubbie]

Like Mr Packethead, I also have had a great experience with DHL in NZ, it is prompt and I never have any fees to pay.

I guess it depends on the country.

[KaneTW]

I use DHL all the time, and I made an account with them before they closed that option, so I don't have to pay any extra fees.

[xaxaxa]

I run a web store and this is why I don't offer courier shipping... they all have a tendency to charge extra "processing fees" at time of delivery, and as I predicted, people will blame the merchant rather than the courier. I only do ePacket shipping which uses the CN22 declaration form, meaning less (usually no) hassle at customs.

[Bud]

I can hardly see hows that a surprise to anyone. All couriers charge a brokerage (customs clearance) fee. Just type "[courier name] brokerage fee" in the browser to get information on the courier fee schedule. Some companies like Digikey have the charges included in the items price , that is why you do not pay extra when buying from them, at least this is how it is in Canada.

[Doctorandus_P]

The whole western world has turned lazy.
What is a "fair" price for some service is also a very vague concept.
Even the concept of money is is given far more leverage than it should have in this capitalistic western world. How much is love worth?

Here in the rich western world most people do not care about money or the cost of things, just as long as it's fast and convenient. I am in an unfortunate situation where I have to make do with a very modest amount of money and no possibility to make significant improvements. As an alternative I've fully embraced the Open Source world, where friendlyness and helping each other and even "Making this a better World" is appreaciated above money.

Shipping is a strange thing nowaday's. Small packets from China are Free. The while packet, inclusive shipping is often cheaper than a postage stamp. Buying some batteries form a nearby town adds EUR 6.5 for shipping, almost 30% of the value of the packet.

All the big electronics component stores in the western world (Mouser, digikey, Farnell, etc ALL of them) seem to be conspiring for high prices. This becomes very clear if you look at SOT-23 transistors. Just pick a few and compare prices:
https://octopart.com/search?q=2n7002
First off: It is rediclous that prices for single transistors are even listed.
If you want to build a house, do you buy a bag of sand, or do you buy grains of sand?

LCSC is a reliable Chinese store, comparable with those Western shops.
LCSC starts at minum quantities of 20 for these small parts, and at much more reasonable prices:
https://lcsc.com/search?q=2n7002
The 20+ price of LCSC is lower than the 10000+ price of Western shops.

And when buying such parts from Ali, they put 100 in an envelope and ship the thing for a total price of EUR2 or less inclusive shipping, and everything below EUR22 is free of customs an VAT here in Europe.

I've had some bad experiences with DHL. The worst are with packages just over the minimum limit. I've had one motor driver for a Nema23 motor which costed EUR45, and for which I paid an extra EUR 30 for shipping. DHL managed to inflate the costs with an extra of EUR 51, and I do not now how they managed to do so because they do not add a decent bill.
They also obfuscate shipping by throwing away tracking numbers and inventing their own.

Whenever I buy the more expensive stuff from Ali, I skip stores that only send with DHL, and even delay paying untill the store confirms that it wil not ship with DHL.

Paying is another sore point with DHL. Normal companies simply add a bill for customs, but DHL demands packages to be payed for at the door. What makes me most mad about this though is that they do not use the accustomed rounding to 5ct as almost everybody in europe does, but they DEMAND every last cent. If the costs are EUR 51.02, you have to give them those last 2 cents or you will not get your packet.

Once I turned so mad about this that I wrestled my packet out of the arms of the delivery boy and threw the door cosed in his face. Then I proceeded by paying the customs fees by bank transfer. Never again will I ship with DHL.

Some others have good experiences with DHL (622 packets in a year).
They probably cushion their milk cows.
In some countries experiences with DHL could vary.
If you don't care about your mony and pay DHL rates the service can be good & fast.
But they charge redicilous rates. I'd rather wait a few weeks for packets to arrive.

[xaxaxa]

ePacket is a nice service. The prices are around $4 + $1/100g to ship from China to most countries, and delivery time is usually around 2-4 weeks, with full tracking. It seems this is part of some worldwide UPU deal so I don't get why no other countries offer OUTGOING ePacket shipments? It seems a no-brainer for your own e-commerce industry...

[ciccio]

I too am beginning to hate DHL..
I must admit their (shipping and delivery) service is superb, but when I receive packets from outside EU they steal my money with undocumented fees.
The increase the "intrinsec " value of the goods, sometimes by adding an insurance cost that does not exist in the documents, and which I did never pay,
This way the intrinsec value goes over the 22 Euros that are the "custom free" limit,  so I must pay import duties (taxes) and pay DHL for their brokerage fees.
Sometime the duties + DHL brokerage cost are about 80% of the costs of goods + delivery.
Another strange thing: DHL mails me a note for the fees to be paid, in advance, when the packet is still in Hong Kong or in Dresden, but when I receive the invoice and the cistom paperwork it is signed by somebody in Italy...
Next time I'll place an order with PCBway I'll select the e-packet option.
I use e-packet sometimes with orders from China, and it seems to work well.
Best regards

[KaneTW]

Complain. You are not obligated to pay the wrong amount.

As for fees, create an account with them. You'll need an EORI number and some other headaches, but you can skip the brokerage fee.

[langwadt]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...), but it's not the point. I have parcels from outside EU before, I have never had to pay extra for customs clearance, usually it's included in shipping price (I'm not talking about import taxes).
I didn't get any warning that customs clearance is not included while ordering this service (and in DHL page they claim they do customs clearance), if I did, I definitely would pick regular mail because it's way cheaper.
Frankly I feel deceived, as I said I may be spoiled by EU customer protection, but I think thing like this should be clearly stated while purchasing a service.

a fee for customs clearance is totally standard, if you haven't paid that before they either assumed it was under the limit of a few tens of euros or you were lucky and it
slipped past customs

[mvs]

The UPU thing basically says who sends, who pays. Delivery is done for free by recipient country.
So, the more you ship, the more advantage you will take from the recipient country.
To utilize this, China Post subsidizes ePacket.

This is a positive feedback thing. The more you ship, the higher ship:receive ratio, the lower the percentage receiving cost, the more money you can use to subsidize, hence the more you can ship.

Not quite correct. UPU has established terminal dues system to cope with this unbalanced ratio. However the fees are very low and do not compensate the costs of the delivery in most developed countries.

[ciccio]

Complain. You are not obligated to pay the wrong amount.

As for fees, create an account with them. You'll need an EORI number and some other headaches, but you can skip the brokerage fee.

I tried, but  I discovered that if you want to open a dispute, with DHL or any  other broker, such as Poste Italiane, you must pay a fixed fee of 30.00 Euro, not refundable ..
This way, they rob me of about 30.00 Euro each time, and I'm obliged to smile

[KaneTW]

Weird. Over here I've just written DHL Express an email and they sorted it out without complaint.

[langwadt]

The UPU thing basically says who sends, who pays. Delivery is done for free by recipient country.
So, the more you ship, the more advantage you will take from the recipient country.
To utilize this, China Post subsidizes ePacket.

This is a positive feedback thing. The more you ship, the higher ship:receive ratio, the lower the percentage receiving cost, the more money you can use to subsidize, hence the more you can ship.

Not quite correct. UPU has established terminal dues system to cope with this unbalanced ratio. However the fees are very low and do not compensate the costs of the delivery in most developed countries.

afaiui the issue is that China gets the developing country discount

[3dgeo]

Finally, DHL themselves contacted me, I wrote all arguments on why we end up in this situation and why it isn't my fault.
I hope I pointed out clearly enough to them that I'm OK with them charging extra for customs clearance, I'm not OK they do not inform about this up front, even on their own page.
If we will not sort this out parcel will get back to JLCPCB in 20 days. I'm letting this happen.
I'm so curious what JLCPCB will do in this case, cos now JLCPCB involvement basically is "not our problem, were celebrating new year..." – well, they didn't directly said this, but it's in the air. Tho I doubt JLCPCB will leave this like that, probably people who can sort this out is on vacation due to China new year.
It's a huge waste of time, but things like this tests big companies – are they too big to care? Will see...

[Kasper]

I've had a few employers in Canada say never use dhl.

I recently had parts delayed a week because dhl held them at the border waiting for me to pay.  I was expecting to pay when they arrived because that is what all other couriers I've used do.

[jpmkm]

I absolutely love JLCPCB+DHL.  I've ordered from seeedstudio and I was happy with them, but JLC is just faster.  I've never had issues with customs or fees or anything(I'm in the US). 

[3dgeo]

I absolutely love JLCPCB+DHL.  I've ordered from seeedstudio and I was happy with them, but JLC is just faster.  I've never had issues with customs or fees or anything(I'm in the US).

EU customs is a nightmare, at least in some countries. Side note – if I try to clear customs myself I have to pay over 50 eur to get permission to do so and after that I'm risking getting a fine if I fill documents incorrectly 

I updated original post.

[emece67]

.

[langwadt]

Hi,

Here (Spain, not sure if this is the same in the remaining EU), law says that me, as an individual, can cope with the import procedures and pay only the import taxes. I have done this many, many times in the past. But, from some years ago, it has become more and more difficult, as the first notice you get about your shipment is that it has been managed by some 3rd party agent (no matter if it comes from DHL/UPS/... or even the state post service "Correos") that will perform such import procedures and will charge you its fare (in top of the import taxes).

DHL/UPS etc. say that you can notify them, prior to the entrance of the shipment in the destination country, that you will be in charge of the import procedure, but they always forget/lose such notifications and always deliver your shipment to such 3rd party custom agents.

That is, DHP/UPS/state post force you to contract a 3rd party for a service you have not demanded and that you can do by yourself. Well, in fact, they contract it in your behalf and without your authorization.

Ugly, isn't it?

just buy from an EU country, problem solved

[emece67]

.

[3dgeo]

For that thing to happen, you must find the product you want inside the EU.

As many, you are missing the point – I'm OK with extra charges IF I get notified about them BEFORE I made a decision. How can You make a decision if You don't know final price?
Now I'm pushed in the corner and forced to pay or lose parcel with no other option, thats the problem. It's not even about the money (I will lose way more by refusing to pay), it's about being forced to do things that You weren't informed about. I just can't give up and pay this fee, it's wrong, I feel deceived, for most this probably isn't an issue, but it is for me.

[ebastler]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...)

Sorry, but this was the point where your argument collapsed, I think.

DHL's request for customs clearance fees is essentially an offer of a service. You can chose to decline that offer and handle customs clearing yourself. So what is you complaint?

(My only complaint is that DHL don't make this option very clear, and word their "offer" in a strange way. Obviously they would prefer that you use their services and pay, and hence they are not very transparent about this.)

EDIT: Hmm, this option may in fact not exist for "DHL Express" shipments. At least here in Germany, regular DHL offers the option to deposit your shipment at the customs office for you to clear it and pick it up. Maybe DHL Express does not?

[emece67]

.

[3dgeo]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...)

Sorry, but this was the point where your argument collapsed, I think.

DHL's request for customs clearance fees is essentially an offer of a service. You can chose to decline that offer and handle customs clearing yourself. So what is you complaint?

(My only complaint is that DHL don't make this option very clear, and word their "offer" in a strange way. Obviously they would prefer that you use their services and pay, and hence they are not very transparent about this.)

EDIT: Hmm, this option may in fact not exist for "DHL Express" shipments. At least here in Germany, regular DHL offers the option to deposit your shipment at the customs office for you to clear it and pick it up. Maybe DHL Express does not?

Did You read part where I wrote that if I want to clear customs myself it will cost me over 50 eur? My complain is simple, while I was ordering there wasn't this line: "Customs clearance fee is not included"  Simple as that.

[ebastler]

Did You read part where I wrote that if I want to clear customs myself it will cost me over 50 eur? My complain is simple, while I was ordering there wasn't this line: "Customs clearance fee is not included"  Simple as that.

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

A 50 Euro fee seems quite excessive, btw. If it is really that expensive in your country, then shouldn't you be delighted about the great low-cost deal you get from DHL when they handle it?

[3dgeo]

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

Well it's EU, customs clearance will always be when You import something, so why wouldn't they be included? And if not it's logical to expect it would be declared clearly that it's not. And I think I wrote clear enough that I don't have any issue on paying import taxes.

A 50 Euro fee seems quite excessive, btw. If it is really that expensive in your country, then shouldn't you be delighted about the great low-cost deal you get from DHL when they handle it?

Thats the point, it's not a deal. I did not make a deal for 3rd party customs clearance or deal to do customs clearance my self, thats THE problem   

[langwadt]

Yes, I saw that part. But you can blame neither DHL nor JLCPCB for the customs clearing fees in your country. Neither import duties nor customs fees are included in JLCPCB's sticker price; why would they?

Well it's EU, customs clearance will always be when You import something, so why wouldn't they be included? And if not it's logical to expect it would be declared clearly that it's not. And I think I wrote clear enough that I don't have any issue on paying import taxes.

you are buying from outside the EU so of course you have to pay import tax, and what would a Chinese company know or care about taxes
of other countries?

[3dgeo]

langwadt - it's not an import tax, I'm OK paying taxes and I do not expect they should be included in delivery price.

[Yansi]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

[3dgeo]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

If I order shipping I expect one of these: caries to ship and handle all the fuss on the way OR clearly notify me upfront that some services are not included and will cost extra. Is it really that much to ask? According to your logic if you buy food you have to make sure yourself that it does not contain any poison and kill you. I don't see any logic or argument here.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

I repeat again – it's not about customs clearance amount, they can charge as much as they want as long they inform me up front so I can pick caries that fits my needs.

Also I notices people mix custom taxes and customs clearance fee – I will make an edit on my main post to clarify this.

[Deni]

This is not directly related to the topic, but similar in a way:
A month ago I ordered some stuff via Texas Instrument on-line store. I've done it in the past (5-6 times just last year) and the procedure was simple - they would ship the order from USA, it will arrive to my country (EU member state), carrier will do the customs paperwork and that was it. The whole process took 4-5 days, usually. And for larger orders, shipping was free.
Well - not anymore. Now they shipped the order by Schenker (cargo company, ocean freight !) to Netherlands and then from there by TNT to the destination. Took almost 2 weeks. But the most interesting part is that they charged my credit card with Dutch V.A.T. (although my company is registered business and has valid EU VAT number !). Also, they initially charged credit card with net amount, cancelled that transactions 3 days later and charged with new value (net+VAT), which I never actually authorized. I complained to their customer service, but since they're in the USA I guess they do not understand how the whole VAT stuff wokrks between EU countries. They even claimed that I was notified about that VAT nonsense during ordering process, which I was not. I even got confirmation e-mail clearly stating that the there's no VAT - just goods and shipping.
 
Nevertheless, they stick to their version and all I can do is to hate them. What a mess...

[2N3055]

This is not directly related to the topic, but similar in a way:
A month ago I ordered some stuff via Texas Instrument on-line store. I've done it in the past (5-6 times just last year) and the procedure was simple - they would ship the order from USA, it will arrive to my country (EU member state), carrier will do the customs paperwork and that was it. The whole process took 4-5 days, usually. And for larger orders, shipping was free.
Well - not anymore. Now they shipped the order by Schenker (cargo company, ocean freight !) to Netherlands and then from there by TNT to the destination. Took almost 2 weeks. But the most interesting part is that they charged my credit card with Dutch V.A.T. (although my company is registered business and has valid EU VAT number !). Also, they initially charged credit card with net amount, cancelled that transactions 3 days later and charged with new value (net+VAT), which I never actually authorized. I complained to their customer service, but since they're in the USA I guess they do not understand how the whole VAT stuff wokrks between EU countries. They even claimed that I was notified about that VAT nonsense during ordering process, which I was not. I even got confirmation e-mail clearly stating that the there's no VAT - just goods and shipping.
 
Nevertheless, they stick to their version and all I can do is to hate them. What a mess...

I'm sorry to disappoint you but they are right. If you import from USA to EU you pay VAT at point of entry (Netherlands here), or if carrier forwards it to your country, you pay VAT ( PDV kod nas :-)) there, because is where USA goods entered EU. VAT free is only inside EU. Anything coming outside EU has to have VAT applied, and it will be applied to price of goods + transport cost.
That is, unless seller specifies incoterms DPD , which means that all duties(customs, VAT, clearing duties)  are included in price in invoice.
Actually, you did good, because VAT in Netherlands is 21% as opposed to 25% in Croatia...

Regards,

[Yansi]

Dear 3dgeo,

I think you are quite heavily overreacting, because you have done little to none actual legal research before, leaving you uninformed about the matter how the capitalist world works.

If I order shipping I expect one of these: caries to ship and handle all the fuss on the way OR clearly notify me upfront that some services are not included and will cost extra. Is it really that much to ask? According to your logic if you buy food you have to make sure yourself that it does not contain any poison and kill you. I don't see any logic or argument here.

I agree, that the extra fee for DHL processing the customs declaration is not fer and is one of the highest rates (but believe me, Fedex or UPS charges WAY MORE THAN THAT).

What is also true, that if you process the customs paperwork yourself, you pay NONE extra fees to DHL.

I am also in EU and quite familiar with how this works.  I can (and almost always primarily want to) deal with the customs office directly. In our country. Normally, this takes from 10 up to 20 minutes maximum at the office - i.e. is fast enough and the office in our capital city, easily accessible.

What SUCKS damn hard is that DHL has its own detached customs office, where you have to go in person to do the paperwork. This damn fucked office, is located in samn damn asshole of a city, where it is a half day trip to get to. - this probably is no coincidence, just to force more money out of people, who can't afford a half day trip to pay few tens of € VAT. That just makes no sense.

So I understand your affection and anger, but you shall stop overreacting like this. Do better legal research next time before ordering something.

I repeat again – it's not about customs clearance amount, they can charge as much as they want as long they inform me up front so I can pick caries that fits my needs.

Also I notices people mix custom taxes and customs clearance fee – I will make an edit on my main post to clarify this.

I am not sure, but it seems you are the one confused here.

What I am familiar with, is the following:

a) you pay VAT if the value of goods is over some small amount (22€).
b) customs import tax is also applicable if items value is over €150. (customs imprt tax can be 0 up to some 20% or so, depending on the category)
c) you pay the carrier for the service of providing you the customs clearance. (Someone has to do the paperwork, right?)

They have no legal duties to inform you upfront, that you pay for customs clearance. You are the one to read the terms and conditions for importing goods.

Also, if I remember how the process starts, is that you get an email and/or phone notification up front (so in fact they ARE informing you up front and giving you options), that the goods imported is eligible for customs processing. They let you choose up front to:

1)  have them deal with it on your behalf (you provide them your EORI and details about the items imported), then pay extra for this service

2) or you just go to whatever hell hole you need to to do the paperwork yourself.

This is how it works and I do not see any legal transgressions on their side.

Or have I missed something?

[3dgeo]

They have no legal duties to inform you upfront, that you pay for customs clearance. You are the one to read the terms and conditions for importing goods.

Your statement that they do not have legal duties to inform me and I'm the one that has to read therms and the conditions is self-contradicting, because if they do not have to inform me they do not have to write therms and conditions, so how do I suppose to find out? We just got to the bottom of the issue – JLCPCB did not provide any information. Mind You that official DHL statement is that JLCPCB was responsible for informing me about services JLCPCB sells, and I do agree with DHL, JLCPCB got the money, not DHL. Further more, what should be more experience on international shipping – company that deals with thousands or more international customers per day or random person like me who has practically no experience what comes to international shipping?
I see nothing complicated here – if someone sells service, they might have no legal duties to do so but they have to provide all information about the service, otherwise whats is the difference between them and scammers?

[Yansi]

Does your government have any duty to inform you about your local law? Probably very likely not. You have the look it up yourself. You can't make apologies because you have not known about some specific laws.

Same applies here. Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website.  If I could find them when I was beginning with importing more stuff from China, you could probably find them too.

JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. They do not have to inform you about customs processing, they no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  They have just paid the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC.

Also understand that the import fees (including customs clearance fees) may vary wildly depending on the country, product type or quantity. That is none JLCPCB business. Leave them alone.

If you would order something from eBay from for example the US of A, you pay the shipping, and THEN you pay extra if customs processing fees are applied.

Have you ever seen the notice there under the auctions that do not use the GSP (Global Shipping Program - which by the way sucks, because is very slow and often more expensive than to deal customs directly)

International Shipping - items may be subject to customs processing depending on the item's declared value.
Sellers set the item's declared value and must comply with customs declaration laws.
As the buyer, you should be aware of possible:
- delays from customs inspection.
- import duties and taxes which buyers must pay.
- brokerage fees payable at the point of delivery.

It does not matter from where you bought an item. Additional import charges are up to the transport company. International sellers do not care about your import laws or taxes. You are the importer, not the seller. That is your duty to fix that yourself.

(See - JLCPCB have never stated anywhere, that your are paying for customs clearance service at your destination).

I see nothing complicated here – if someone sells service, they might have no legal duties to do so but they have to provide all information about the service, otherwise whats is the difference between them and scammers?

Well of course there is absolutely nothing complicated. It does not matter if JLC PCB, ALLPCB or other completely different international seller. It could happen with any of them. So it is unfair that you spit on JLC, because you are clearly the one who was not educated enough before purchasing internationally.

The fact that it might not get caught with different seller, is that they (Chinese guys) almost every time give fraudulent information about the item prices. Now if you got caught with this one, you might get into some serious trouble. VAT shortening is a quite heavily punished crime.

[3dgeo]

Does your government have any duty to inform you about your local law? Probably very likely not. You have the look it up yourself. You can't make apologies because you have not known about some specific laws.

Same applies here. Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website.  If I could find them when I was beginning with importing more stuff from China, you could probably find them too.

JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. They do not have to inform you about customs processing, they no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  They have just paid the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC.

I know import laws and taxes, I knew there will be custom taxes and customs clearance procedure. What I did not know and was not informed about was that shipping price does not cover customs clearance.

Despite that You totally ignored this quote from DHL official respond:
"...it is absolutly the responsibility of your contract partner, the sender(who again is the direct partner of DHL EXPRESS), to make you aware of the conditions. You made a contract with the sender even though you have been choosing DHL EXPRESS. ..." You stated that Customs clearance fees can be easily found on the DHL website, why not link them than? Please do so.

Can You clarify why JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here? I mean I'm their customer, and I'm sure many people that reads this threads are was or will be. Dealing with shipping and customs is a big part of their business they want it or not, even if they outsource it to 3rd party companies. Don't You think that they should care about these things? I don't know, maybe You are right, if so all they have to do is write this in a shipping window " JLCPCB does not have any responsibility here. We do not have to inform you about customs processing, we no nothing about how that works in your country. That is just the problem between you and the carrier company.  We just pay the carrier to transport the item to you. Additional fees should be claimed at DHL, not JLC. Also understand that the import fees (including customs clearance fees) may vary wildly depending on the country, product type or quantity. That is none JLCPCB business. Leave us alone." This is all I needed to know at that point, but I didn't and wasn't informed.

If you would order something from eBay from for example the US of A, you pay the shipping, and THEN you pay extra if customs processing fees are applied.

Have you ever seen the notice there under the auctions that do not use the GSP (Global Shipping Program - which by the way sucks, because is very slow and often more expensive than to deal customs directly)

International Shipping - items may be subject to customs processing depending on the item's declared value.
Sellers set the item's declared value and must comply with customs declaration laws.
As the buyer, you should be aware of possible:
- delays from customs inspection.
- import duties and taxes which buyers must pay.
- brokerage fees payable at the point of delivery.

It's nice You share this information, it brings my point out – Ebay and other places clearly states shipping conditions and/or directly links to them in a carrier page.

It does not matter from where you bought an item. Additional import charges are up to the transport company. International sellers do not care about your import laws or taxes. You are the importer, not the seller. That is your duty to fix that yourself.

(See - JLCPCB have never stated anywhere, that your are paying for customs clearance service at your destination).

All I see is Your temper opinion and no efforts to understand the issue. I don't say that they should care about taxes or import duties, I say that they should make it clear to a customer that they do not care, is it really that hard to understand? Is my English that bad? 

Well of course there is absolutely nothing complicated. It does not matter if JLC PCB, ALLPCB or other completely different international seller. It could happen with any of them. So it is unfair that you spit on JLC, because you are clearly the one who was not educated enough before purchasing internationally.

The fact that it might not get caught with different seller, is that they (Chinese guys) almost every time give fraudulent information about the item prices. Now if you got caught with this one, you might get into some serious trouble. VAT shortening is a quite heavily punished crime.

If other companies do not inform their customers than yes, it could happen to other companies as well, but I can't see how this is relevant to this thread.
I don't spit on anyone, by writing statements like these You are revealing Your lack of education, so please, lets keep this civilized.

Again how's VAT shortening is relevant to any of this?

P.S. Your motivation to defend JLCPCB is astonishing, but I link this thread to JLCPCB staff, I think they can talk for themselves and do better job at it, tho thanks for keeping this thread alive.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Hmm, currently my $2 worth of PCBs from JLCPCB are stuck with DHL, they are asking me to send a form attached with company details to release them. But I am not a company....

I've already paid fees that were two times the cost of the PCBs. The problem seems to be that JLCPCB mislabel the custom declaration, DHL have to follow letter of the law otherwise they get hammered by the government.

Likewise, I don't mind paying legitimate VAT and import duties, I am not trying to evade them. I wish it was just simple and transparent.  People like me get forced to be familiar with INCOTERMS. Anything other than "DDP", expect to pay fees to someone.

I've had hassle with DHL before, I won't be selecting DHL again.

[3dgeo]

Hmm, currently my $2 worth of PCBs from JLCPCB are stuck with DHL, they are asking me to send a form attached with company details to release them. But I am not a company....

I've already paid fees that were two times the cost of the PCBs. The problem seems to be that JLCPCB mislabel the custom declaration, DHL have to follow letter of the law otherwise they get hammered by the government.

Likewise, I don't mind paying legitimate VAT and import duties, I am not trying to evade them. I wish it was just simple and transparent.  People like me get forced to be familiar with INCOTERMS. Anything other than "DDP", expect to pay fees to someone.

I've had hassle with DHL before, I won't be selecting DHL again.

I feel Your pain, DHL are terrible, just You wait while I write what they did to me today :
I payed all extra fees DHL wanted to release my parcel (I finally sort this issue out with JLCPCB, but more on that in my original post). I was informed that if I pay until certain time I will get my parcel today. I did pay in that timeline and send them confirmation from my bank that transaction was made. This morning I'm getting a letter with information that internal rules of DHL states that they can't release parcel until they can see the money in their bank account, it doesn't matter any documents I provide (note that if I falsify bank transfer document I can get to jail, it's usual here to send a bank transaction document so things can move on). Their bank and my bank are not the same and it takes few hours of bank working hours to actually get the money. I ask them to bend the rules this time, but they, as I already knew, didn't care at all. I tried to convince them to sent it out for over an hour, until their shipping vehicle left the facility. And guess what, after less than 15 min (I'm not joking) I'm getting a letter where they state that they received the money and "here's a number to call and find out when your parcel will arrive". They didn't even had a decency to write it themselves that I will not get my parcel for 3 more days due to today being friday.......This company, woooow....    I'm so fed up with this situation...

What comes to Your situation, they probably want to make it as a commercial order so they can charge more for storage (in my country companies pay 5eur/day fee for storing parcel until customs clearance is over, imagine me paying over 100 eur for storage because my parcel was about 20 days). Even tho JLCPCB marked my parcel as a commercial, DHL didn't seemed to care when I sent personal information (at this point I think I should feel really really lucky that they didn't).

[ve7xen]

I really don't understand why you are dragging JLCPCB into this. You asked them to ship your package with DHL Express. Whether or not that service includes brokerage is something you can easily find out from DHL. The onus on you is to know what the delivery standard and included services are with a particular shipping service. It'd be nice if JLCPCB knew this and notified you upfront, but I don't know why you expect them to know the ins and outs of parcel delivery rules in your country or how DHL handles customs clearance there (and for every other country they ship to). If they had shipped using a different carrier than requested (seen this happen before), or using a different service level than requested, then you'd have a legitimate complaint, but they did exactly as requested.

Would you complain to JLCPCB if they used the international postal system to ship instead, and your local post office charged a brokerage processing fee?

That said, I think these fees are highway robbery and complete bullshit, and I've been through this unexpected fee business many years ago when I started buying internationally and hated FedEx for it, but I never thought to attribute blame to the seller. This is a scam perpetrated by the courier companies, take it up with them, or learn which services are 'safe' to use and which aren't.

[Yansi]

None are bulshit fee free.  DHL being actually one of the cheapest of them!  Go, play with fedex or UPS... You will then be glad DHL exists!

[Siwastaja]

I really don't understand why you are dragging JLCPCB into this. You asked them to ship your package with DHL Express. Whether or not that service includes brokerage is something you can easily find out from DHL.

Bullshit. You can't "easily find it out from DHL". Even contacting DHL can be colossally difficult (speaking of experience).

To prove otherwise, please provide a reference. And why should you, when you are not their customer?

Couriers like DHL are notorious of the fact they make different kind of agreements with different customers, different terms&conditions, different pricing... And everything is volatile. It's a can of worms for someone not used to dealing with them.

DHL provides both types of services, brokerage paid by the sender, or not paid by the sender. The only one who can inform the customer about the exact contract with DHL, is the only party who has made the contract with DHL: JLCPCB.

The chain of contract is trivially simple: JLCPCB buys a service from DHL, and the customer buys a service from JLCPCB.

JLCPCB should simply inform the customer that DHL may force-sell services to the customer. It's that easy. But, I understand this is hard to see for them because of the cultural differences, and the fact people are reacting to this in so many random ways.

Yet, year after year, this proves a good internet forum subject for people to be wrong on the internet.

[KIKi]

I really don't understand why you are dragging JLCPCB into this. You asked them to ship your package with DHL Express. Whether or not that service includes brokerage is something you can easily find out from DHL.

Bullshit. You can't "easily find it out from DHL". Even contacting DHL can be colossally difficult (speaking of experience).

To prove otherwise, please provide a reference. And why should you, when you are not their customer?

Couriers like DHL are notorious of the fact they make different kind of agreements with different customers, different terms&conditions, different pricing... And everything is volatile. It's a can of worms for someone not used to dealing with them.

DHL provides both types of services, brokerage paid by the sender, or not paid by the sender. The only one who can inform the customer about the exact contract with DHL, is the only party who has made the contract with DHL: JLCPCB.

The chain of contract is trivially simple: JLCPCB buys a service from DHL, and the customer buys a service from JLCPCB.

JLCPCB should simply inform the customer that DHL may force-sell services to the customer. It's that easy. But, I understand this is hard to see for them because of the cultural differences, and the fact people are reacting to this in so many random ways.

Yet, year after year, this proves a good internet forum subject for people to be wrong on the internet.

Just read FAQ at JLCPCB website. It is completely your fault. https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/32-customs-duties-and-taxes

[Siwastaja]

Just read FAQ at JLCPCB website. It is completely your fault. https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/32-customs-duties-and-taxes

This is surprisingly clearly stated, indeed. They have clearly understood the issue - I see no problem here. I was replying to a post claiming that JLCPCB "shouldn't" need to tell this - which is bullshit, they need to, and they clearly do.

However, FAQ is a misleading place for such a statement: it needs to appear next to the shipping costs (at least in the terms and conditions you agree to when clicking that typical checkbox - but preferably not buried away in a large legal wall of text), when you are committing to buy. I'm not saying it isn't there - maybe it is, and maybe the OP didn't bother to read what he was committing to buy.

[2N3055]

@Siwastaja,

I'we been importing stuff for many years.
I checked. Mouser, Farnell, RS... none of them do what you think would be right.
It is frustrating, I know.

To people doing export/import it is normal thing.
Key word here is INCOTERMS.  That is a definition of import/export terms between you and seller.

What you are explaining would be DDP incoterm (delivery duty paid). Which means that what you paid up front is final price and goods come to your door with not a single additional penny.
DDP is not USUAL incoterm. You have to negotiate it specifically, and many sellers will not be able to do it, because they cannot handle accurate calculations how much it will cost and all the procedures for every damn country in the world.

That is why usually (and this is what all of them do)  they use DAP incoterms. DAP stands for  'Delivered at Place'. Here you pay goods , and transport cost to your door, but all customs, taxes, import permits, fees etc. are paid by customer at import procedure.

And legally, even seller routed your payment to carrier, you are legally responsible for importation in the country.

This all is actually complicated. That is why customs unions like EU are so awesome.

Regards,

[LapTop006]

I really don't understand why you are dragging JLCPCB into this. You asked them to ship your package with DHL Express. Whether or not that service includes brokerage is something you can easily find out from DHL.

Bullshit. You can't "easily find it out from DHL". Even contacting DHL can be colossally difficult (speaking of experience).

Courier companies are *incredibly* variable based on their local offices, and sometimes divisions within that. For me in Australia DHL courier is pretty good for customer service, DHL freight, pretty bad.

Also those lucky enough to work for companies with large accounts often get better service, and at a cheaper price.

[ve7xen]

Bullshit. You can't "easily find it out from DHL". Even contacting DHL can be colossally difficult (speaking of experience).

To prove otherwise, please provide a reference. And why should you, when you are not their customer?

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=does+dhl+express+include+brokerage

In the Google preview for the first result at my location, without even clicking the link, it says: "At the time of delivery, the recipient is provided with a brokerage invoice detailing the duties and taxes that DHL Express has paid on their behalf, plus a brokerage and transaction fee."

Couriers like DHL are notorious of the fact they make different kind of agreements with different customers, different terms&conditions, different pricing... And everything is volatile. It's a can of worms for someone not used to dealing with them.

If you thought this, why didn't you sort it out yourself before ordering? Also, it's not really true. In the vast majority of cases, one of the standard products will be used, and it will either not include brokerage fees (e.g. DHL Express) or include them (e.g. FedEx International Priority). When this isn't the case, it's almost always because the store has made a DDP arrangement of some sort, such that the duties are prepaid on your invoice with the seller, rather than by the courier, which would be clearly indicated. I've seen sellers just say 'FedEx' rather than the exact service, or actually ship using a different service than was requested, both of which would be legitimate complaints, but neither is the case here.

DHL provides both types of services, brokerage paid by the sender, or not paid by the sender. The only one who can inform the customer about the exact contract with DHL, is the only party who has made the contract with DHL: JLCPCB.

"DHL International Express" means something, and contains the information you need. There is no special arrangement between DHL and JLCPCB, they are using a standard service that you can find the details on at the website. And anyway, the safe assumption is that customs clearance is not included, in lieu of other information. You should assume it is not included unless you know that the service includes it, or is DDP (where you will see your local taxes on the invoice). In this case you didn't know it was included and could have asked JLC or DHL.

The chain of contract is trivially simple: JLCPCB buys a service from DHL, and the customer buys a service from JLCPCB.

Exactly. You've selected a DHL service, and JLC is just reselling it to you. You will get that DHL service at DHL's terms. It makes zero sense for JLCPCB to duplicate all of DHL's (changing and region specific, so they'd be inaccurate anyway) policies on their own website. You selected the service you wanted - DHL International Express - and that's exactly what was delivered.

JLCPCB should simply inform the customer that DHL may force-sell services to the customer. It's that easy. But, I understand this is hard to see for them because of the cultural differences, and the fact people are reacting to this in so many random ways.

I agree that because customers are often unfamiliar with customs clearance, and the exorbitant fees that couriers sometimes charge for it, that vendors should in general warn about brokerage fees and seek to help their customers minimize them. But this is just a convenience and a niceness for the customer, it's by no means their obligation to do so. Caveat emptor, as it were.

[Warhawk]

Guys, just a quick question.
I've just finished my first order from JLC which was about 6 USD total. There are two designs 34x34mm, five boards each.
I accidentally selected DHL International shipping which was free. I think this is JLC's promotion for first time customers (but not sure). Package is ridiculously cheap and it should be under the 22EUR customs limit for Germany (EU).

Does anyone had to deal with customs declaration and broker fees even for such small package which is below the customs limit?

I have already sent an email to JLC with request changing shipping to standard post but anyways.... I am still curious what happens.

[KaneTW]

I recommend opening a DHL Express account just so you can yell at them if they charged the provision instead of direct debitting just the duty. Works like a charm, but you need an EORI number nowadays (I got mine before that)

[Warhawk]

I recommend opening a DHL Express account just so you can yell at them if they charged the provision instead of direct debitting just the duty. Works like a charm, but you need an EORI number nowadays (I got mine before that)

Honestly, this is far beyond the effort I want to invest in this 6 USD purchase. In this case, they can keep the order. At the end of the day, I am the fool who wanted to save a penny. I should have gone for aisler.net or OSH park. Especially aisler.net is based in Germany...

Anyway, thanks for the tip.

[Towger]

If you are in the EU 'Free Postage' is calculated as the cost of sending the item back to the sender, from the point it entered the European Union.

Got whacked with over 60 euro tax on a $45 package with that trick [emoji43]

[Warhawk]

If you are in the EU 'Free Postage' is calculated as the cost of sending the item back to the sender, from the point it entered the European Union.

Got whacked with over 60 euro tax on a $45 package with that trick [emoji43]

I know but nobody can force me to accept a package which I don't want to. Or can? Hmm, not sure. 

Imagine that a sender makes and error and sends a package to the wrong customer. What would happen then? If DHL pisses me off I will just order a shitload of dummy PCBs to the regional manager. (joke, ...but fun to think of...)

As I said before - I sent an email to JLC asking them to change my shipping option but who knows if this will work. Communicating something with China outside of the daily business has been always tricky.

[KaneTW]

For what's it worth, I didn't even get an invoice when I ordered from JLCPCB via DHL Express.

[Warhawk]

I got the reply for JLCPCB this morning. They will change shipping without any problem. I can still see the old shipping option online but let's hope for the best. The reply was fast and in good English. 

[Yansi]

If you are in the EU 'Free Postage' is calculated as the cost of sending the item back to the sender, from the point it entered the European Union.

Got whacked with over 60 euro tax on a $45 package with that trick [emoji43]

Welcome to the EU shithole we live in!

[kripton2035]

just bought 10 pcb's from jlcpcb, choose the lowest shipping, and got them in 15 days to France. paid €6 total. €2 for pcbs and €4 for shipping.
very happy with it.

[Yansi]

On 23rd March I have also ordered a bunch of small PCBs, currently they are in transit. Tracking does not provide anything meaningful 
This is the first time I have used snailmail with JLC, i usually only use DHL @JLC or @AllPCB, with no issues.

I am also interested in how fast it will be. PCBShopper indicates, it may take a month to get delivered in the middle of the EU shithole. Hopefully it'll be faster than that.

[kripton2035]

Tracking does not provide anything meaningful

use the site https://www.aftership.com/ to track the shipping.

[balage]

DHL is the standard curier for ALLPCB and I have not experienced any problem. Yet. Maybe luck is also a key factor. But I have got the PCBs typically within 7-8 days.

And the point is: I have noticed that on the document enclosed a smaller amount of money is written. Generally less than around 50 bucks. This paper is needed for the customs paperwork I guess and it makes everything easy if the value does not exceed a limit. I was wondering what if the local customs authority asks me to show the Paypal invoice to check the real money paid. This is often asked for Ebay packages to be released.

[Yansi]

What would you expect to happen? They are well used to the fact the paperwork attached to the package shows lower amounts of money and they happily ignore those numbers straight away.

However, it seems JLC PCB always adds proper invoices and state the full amount of money. They always catch those packages.

Customs should not require any paypal or bank account listings (I couldn't even generate those from my bank account by any official means, other then a screenshot).  The original invoice should be more then enough. (Downloadable straight from the JLC or whatever vendors website).

I do not think that in Hungary this is any different, as Hungary is as EU as we are here. 

[Kjelt]

If you are in the EU 'Free Postage' is calculated as the cost of sending the item back to the sender, from the point it entered the European Union.
Got whacked with over 60 euro tax on a $45 package with that trick [emoji43] 

I got the same bad deal from DHL.
I bought a $300 piece of hardware from ali, sent with DHL for free , so the price of the item included the shipping.
I asked them to put $100 value on the package which they did.

DHL arrived and asked for €95 because of 21% over $100 which is fair and 21% over $250 shipping costs and €20 handling fee?
  I argued about the 21% over $250 shipping costs and their official response after multiple emails was a tarif for sending packages from Europe to China with certain weight.
Their argument shipping is never free so is probably paid in another way so we estimate the shipping costs and you have to pay that stupid wrong estimation.

[2N3055]

I newer had that problem with DHL in Croatia. They would always calculate according to whatever was on Invoice that was included in shipment.
VAT is calculated on price of goods and shipping combined.
Only thing that was extra was cca 15€ processing fee.. I had same experience as a company and as a private person..
So I guess it is really different from country to country...

[Warhawk]

I newer had that problem with DHL in Croatia. They would always calculate according to whatever was on Invoice that was included in shipment.
VAT is calculated on price of goods and shipping combined.
Only thing that was extra was cca 15€ processing fee.. I had same experience as a company and as a private person..
So I guess it is really different from country to country...

This is exactly why I refreshed this thread. My order was for 6 Eur so I don't want to pay extra 15-20 Eur just the "processing fee". No complains about DHL. 

[RobBarter]

I’ve used jlcpcb a few times this year, all via the cheapest delivery option.  This time though I decided to pay the extra £10 and go with DHL.  Gerber files uploaded Monday night (uk time), dhl handed them to me in deepest darkest Devon (out in the shires of England) Friday Morning at about 9:30am.  No extra charges. Less than 3.5 days from order to delivery (9.5*9cm boards).

[Warhawk]

Just to finish the loop...
JLC really changed the shipping option for me. I asked for the "PostLink DE" option. The package has arrived in 6-7 working days.
To my surprise, it was re-sent from Grolsheim in Germany. The original package went there and then somebody sent it to me.
For this reason, no surprises in a form of additional charges .

I am happy with the quality and the cost.

[thinkfat]

Talking about DHL delivering to Germany only - the extra fee only applies if the total price of the shipment (goods and delivery) exceeds a certain amount, I think it's 25€ or thereabouts. Above this, you're required to pay import VAT and potentially customs duties for certain goods. If you let DHL handle it, they apply a quite hefty fee for laying out the money on your behalf and for collecting it at your doorstep on delivery.

If you stay below the magic amount, there is no fee to be paid. I used PostlinkDE for delivering PCBs from JLCPCB, too, but while no single packet has yet been lost, delivery times vary a great deal. Sometimes quick (e.g. two weeks) but sometimes it can take a month as well. For the last few prototypes I therefore opted for DHL shipping and it was always fast and reasonably priced.

[chevell69]

I think if did some looking into the broker fees and stuff you would not  be upset it understable if u live out side of chinna that there is going be fees to inport in to ur country 

[electronus]

Got an order with 6USD merchandize and total 20USD with DHL delivery.
Paid 21CAD on COD.
Then figured out, that's DHL took 20USD for Value for duty, but accroding to CBSA they shouldn't do that, since shipping cost should be not included to Value for Duty.
Called DHL and explained the situation, they gave me an email address where I should write a request to get that 21CAD COD refunded back. 

[SiliconWizard]

Then figured out, that's DHL took 20USD for Value for duty, but accroding to CBSA they shouldn't do that, since shipping cost should be not included to Value for Duty.

Yeah this is an issue that many of us have already noticed (and run into).
If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

[thinkfat]

Then figured out, that's DHL took 20USD for Value for duty, but accroding to CBSA they shouldn't do that, since shipping cost should be not included to Value for Duty.

Yeah this is an issue that many of us have already noticed (and run into).
If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

German regulations are that shipping cost is to be included in value for duty :-( So at least for me, I don't have any option to have that refunded.

[sotos]

Same here in Greece. They rip us out.

[SiliconWizard]

Then figured out, that's DHL took 20USD for Value for duty, but accroding to CBSA they shouldn't do that, since shipping cost should be not included to Value for Duty.

Yeah this is an issue that many of us have already noticed (and run into).
If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

German regulations are that shipping cost is to be included in value for duty :-( So at least for me, I don't have any option to have that refunded.

Oh. I'll have to check that for over here, that may be the same actually... which would explain the thing, but I think UPS for instance doesn't do the same? (Again for over here in France...)
And postal services definitely don't, at least last time I checked.

[thinkfat]

I wonder, if I had a DHL account and let JLCPCB use it (there's an option to input one in the shipping dialog), DHL would bill me directly for the shipping and it would not show up on the JLCPCB invoice? That would definitely reduce cost. Hm....

[SiliconWizard]

I wonder, if I had a DHL account and let JLCPCB use it (there's an option to input one in the shipping dialog), DHL would bill me directly for the shipping and it would not show up on the JLCPCB invoice? That would definitely reduce cost. Hm....

Oh, maybe yeah.

[wraper]

I wonder, if I had a DHL account and let JLCPCB use it (there's an option to input one in the shipping dialog), DHL would bill me directly for the shipping and it would not show up on the JLCPCB invoice? That would definitely reduce cost. Hm....

First of all you unlikely to have rates as low. Secondly you'll pay VAT on shipping to begin with. Oh, and DHL likes to add "statistic value" of shipping cost.

[wraper]

Then figured out, that's DHL took 20USD for Value for duty, but accroding to CBSA they shouldn't do that, since shipping cost should be not included to Value for Duty.

Yeah this is an issue that many of us have already noticed (and run into).
If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

German regulations are that shipping cost is to be included in value for duty :-( So at least for me, I don't have any option to have that refunded.

Shipping cost is not included into maximum goods cost free of customs clearance. But not free of VAT as such.  You have max limit of EUR 22. Say if goods cost EUR 20 + you have shipping cost of EUR 30, you don't need to pay anything. But if goods cost EUR 25 + EUR 5 shipping, you need customs clearance and pay VAT for both.

[Zoli]

Last August same happend to me: DHL ding'd me for ~25 CAD for an order of 18.xx CAD+shipping. I've filed out a complain on DHL's online portal(sorry, don't remember exactly where, but it would be easy to find), and attached a copy of the invoice. One month later I've recevied an e-mail, with contact info, phone # included, which I've used to receive the refund.
As side note, before submittind my complaint to DHL, I've contacted JLCPCB via e-mail, and during that conversation they mentioned that is a possibility to get 2(two) invoices for an order, with separate invoice for shipping, which invoice won't be submitted to the courier; the courier will get only the invoice for the PCB's.

[electronus]

If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

Got an answer in a few hours, got refunded within 4 days. e-mail is: codhold_ca at dhl.com I guess it is specific for Canada 

[SiliconWizard]

If you can get an answer, and better yet, a refund, please report back.

Got an answer in a few hours, got refunded within 4 days. e-mail is: codhold_ca at dhl.com I guess it is specific for Canada 

Thanks.
So yeah it's likely that it depends on the country and local regulations.

But in your case (Canada), that basically means (it's certainly not an isolated case) that if you don't ask for a refund, you just get silently ripped off.
Good job DHL.

[electronus]

But in your case (Canada), that basically means (it's certainly not an isolated case) that if you don't ask for a refund, you just get silently ripped off.

Yeah, that's true. But in my case I ripped them, since they refunded to me a full amount, and they already paid to the State $4.7 of taxes 
I advised my friend, who was paying that duty all the times, he'll pull commercial invoices from JLC orders and will try to get refunds as well...

[SiliconWizard]

But in your case (Canada), that basically means (it's certainly not an isolated case) that if you don't ask for a refund, you just get silently ripped off.

Yeah, that's true. But in my case I ripped them, since they refunded to me a full amount, and they already paid to the State $4.7 of taxes 

That would almost look as though they didn't know what they were doing.

[Zoli]

That would almost look as though they didn't know what they were doing.

Considering that the JLCPCB invoice clearly states: sub-total and freight cost close to the end, I would like to ask the clerk responsable for this mess, if s/he does the same with the personal invoices(not reading to the end) ? 

[electronus]

Wording in invoice from their site differs from a paper invoice enclosed to the package. And paper versions says at the bottom: Total Value  Which includes shipping. So DHL clerk just pulls this number and initiates whole process  for nothing
Looks like I will contact them with a request to change Total Value to Grand Total, or just Total....

[Zoli]

Sorry for the late repply:
I never received paper invoice from JLCPCB(which I consider a pozitive pennypinching), lonly some self-promoting materials, more or less useful :

[emsnickw]

Trust but verify. The second you stop checking you will get screwed. So many companies nickel and dime you in hopes you either don't notice or can't be bothered to do something about it. Good for you. 

[Zoli]

JLCPCB now offers DDP(Delivery Duty Paid) with DHL express shipping; I estimate it in the 5-10 USD handling + government cut ballpark, so it's way cheaper then DHL's robbery.
I've placed an order with DDP(it was under the 20CAD limit, so it's not really relevant; I've added DDP to support it as positive initiative), and it arrived without any problems.

[aerobaticant]

It's not JLC's fault, but how DHL work. I ordered some fully assembled boards (QFN packages, components both sides) from PCBWay. The total order was about $250 and so I got hit with a big DHL bill (about £60). It looked as if they even charge VAT on the VAT they collect, plus the $15 fee for collecting the fees!

I've had a few of smallish orders from JLC without issues.

My latest, larger, order is about to ship. 100 boards (80 x 50 mm) plus DDP DHL express shipping for just over $100 all in.  The shipping is considerably more than the cost of the boards and is listed separately on the invoice. I'm still amazed that this works out at about 85p per board. I couldn't buy bare double sided copper clad board here in the UK for that price.

We shall see what happens!

[logiclrd]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

[exe]

That's why I'm very happy that they have "Royal Mail & Austrian Post". Last order (two months ago, components from lcsc) was delivered in less than week without any troubles.

[ebastler]

I used "Europacket" for my last two orders from JLCPCB. They bundle orders from multiple customers and ship them to Europe in bulk, taking care of all customs matters. I understand that the shipping cost you pay to JLCPCB includes a share for customs, but apparently no significant handling fee.

A JLCPCB agent in Europe unbundles and re-ships the individual packages to the end customers. That re-shipping step did take a couple days more than I thought it should have, in both cases. But I received my orders without having to pay any additional fees. One was small (below the German customs limit), the other was well above.

[Bud]

Worrying about PCBs or parts delivery cost will eat you alive, that is why i stopped worrying about it long time ago, as well as about gas price. Each time time that cost comes to my mind i just think for the moment how much my wife spends to get her hair or nails done, and then my petty courier delivery charges all of a sudden become insignificant in that grand scheme of things 

[drussell]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Yeah, of course... you're free to try navigate the world of doing your own customs clearance if you wish...

What you're paying FedEx or DHL for is their brokerage service, clearing customs for you.  Even if there is only a few dollars of goods coming through, and very little tax (although you're always going to have to pay at least GST) owing on it, someone still has to do the paperwork and pay any brokerage and clearance and processing fees....  If you are physically close to the port of entry and are set up to do the paperwork yourself, have at it....

Canada Post is pretty good, I think they're still only $5 or $7 for the actual brokerage fee, and many times if it is a small-dollar item, they don't even bother doing the paperwork, sometimes it will even show up without you even having to pay GST....

...don't count on it though!

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

[Yansi]

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

But they are the ones charging for nonsense.  Not sure how about in Canada, I am only familiar in doing customs paperwork in a completely different country, but from what I know, it is a just copying few relevant numbers to a computer system and then paying the shit up. The actual paperwork done is barely worth of 5 minutes of someone's work. Maybe 10 minutes, if you make the work for them harder, by not looking the specific category of the goods in advance (TARIC,KN).

Unfortunately, such fees are not legislatively regulated, so they can charge whatever they find fit. You, as the importer are the one responsible and it is your job to research the relevant law and rules, to not be surprised later.

[drussell]

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

But they are the ones charging for nonsense.  Not sure how about in Canada, I am only familiar in doing customs paperwork in a completely different country, but from what I know, it is a just copying few relevant numbers to a computer system and then paying the shit up. The actual paperwork done is barely worth of 5 minutes of someone's work. Maybe 10 minutes, if you make the work for them harder, by not looking the specific category of the goods in advance (TARIC,KN).

Firstly, I'm not defending the ridiculously high charges that sometimes get charged, BUT...

If you ran a shipping company and every package that came in took "5 minutes of someone's work or maybe 10 minutes" are you saying that you would somehow just do that for free, or something?  Not packages that are part of some bulk-rate importing deal like Digikey or RockAuto or whatever have because they ship thousands and thousands of packages over the border each day with all the documentation, country of origin and applicable duties sorted out, customs paperwork already done beforehand so it can be pre-cleared at the shippers' expense, but just random small, cheap packages from random countries.....  For free??

For every package?!  Really??   

[drussell]

Unfortunately, such fees are not legislatively regulated, so they can charge whatever they find fit. You, as the importer are the one responsible and it is your job to research the relevant law and rules, to not be surprised later.

True enough....  and you're free to use a third party brokerage service if you wish, but it would likely delay the clearance of your imported goods for a one-off....  As long as they're not urgent that might well be the way to go if FedEx wants $50 just for the fee and you can find a budget customs brokerage agent willing to work with you on small packages, but good luck.  They will all likely want to deal in large shipments where they can actually make a buck and survive.

Perhaps you should start a brokerage service for people here to use for our small shipments! 

What are you going to charge?  $5 per package like Canada Post?  I think that's a downright reasonable fee.

You'd better be seriously efficient if you think you can regularly clear small-value packages for a $5 fee with all the overhead costs of running a brokerage service.  (Obviously the customer would still have to pay any taxes due, I just mean what do you think would be fair for your part, doing the actual brokerage process?)

I highly doubt that would be a sustainable business plan.   

[2N3055]

Stupid thing is that it is same amount of work (paperwork and footwork) to pass through customs 5 USD worth of PCBs and 1000 USD shipment of PCB. If you import a lot, you will see that they will charge you same fee for 30 USD value and 4000 USD valute of goods, if effort is the same. Taxes will differ but their fee will be the same.
Also one thing is being forgotten: they are your legal representative of you in customs process. If you pass them fraudulent data and they get caught, they are also in a problem. So they have insurance for any penalties that go with it... Hence they charge fee..
I don't like the fee either, but, hey, I wouldn't want to work for free, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

Also. despite DHL shipping and customs, it is still much cheaper that PCB made locally.  So I don't care..

[S. Petrukhin]

Look here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/jlcpcb-offer-until-25-december/msg3336954/#msg3336954

[daveismissing]

The option I chose this week says FEDEX INTL Priority specifically.
Now FEDEX INTL PRIORITY has all brokerage and customs charges built into the price.
I will be very annoyed if JCL lied about what service they used on my order.
 

[Jay_Diddy_B]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Hi,

I think that you should have chosen the DDP option:




DDP means 'Delivered Duty Paid'. This option means that you should not be stung with additional charges by DHL.

Has anybody had any experience with the DHL DPP option in Canada?

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

[wraper]

The option I chose this week says FEDEX INTL Priority specifically.
Now FEDEX INTL PRIORITY has all brokerage and customs charges built into the price.
I will be very annoyed if JCL lied about what service they used on my order.

I think you delude yourself. Unless it says DDP, nothing is included. But items below CAD $20 are not taxable.

[CatalinaWOW]

I just came across this thread and think all of the anger is misdirected.  It has been stated here by many that they don't mind paying the tax, just the fee for finding out what the taxes are.  And stated by many that they could bypass this fee by doing all of the paperwork and legwork themselves, but it is risky and too much trouble.

In both cases the fundamental problem is a byzantine tax code.  I can't speak for every country but here in the US the laws run to thousands of pages.  It really is a major job to correctly understand and apply the correct tax.  While there are many variations on implementation I suspect that most first world countries are equally complex.  I have had the opportunity to lightly sample several European countries and those samples support this theory.  These complex codes are the result of decades or even hundreds of years of attempts to create fairness, protect privileged parties, raise revenues or punish bad actors.  The complaints about the system should go to those with the power to change it.  That isn't the vendors of parts or the shippers of parts.  It is a huge job to understand the customs rules of my country, and I assume of most others.  Being able to do it, and to assume the risks of error deserves significant compensation.  The only way to avoid this is to either simplify or eliminate these tax structures.

[dietert1]

Isn't it obvious that those extra costs are more or less justified? In my opinion the real problem are those poisoned gifts from China meant to ruin western electronics industries. I liked bud's comparison to the price of a hair cut.
My business are medical devices and when i see a finger pulse oximeter (including sensor, display and power supply) for € 10.99 at real.de that makes me angry. These are poisoned gifts as well, since certification as a medical device alone would generate costs more than that. But OK, we should shut up and try to use them to our advantage, just as those fake FFP2 masks.

Regards, Dieter

[S. Petrukhin]

Isn't it obvious that those extra costs are more or less justified? In my opinion the real problem are those poisoned gifts from China meant to ruin western electronics industries. I liked bud's comparison to the price of a hair cut.
My business are medical devices and when i see a finger pulse oximeter (including sensor, display and power supply) for € 10.99 at real.de that makes me angry. These are poisoned gifts as well, since certification as a medical device alone would generate costs more than that. But OK, we should shut up and try to use them to our advantage, just as those fake FFP2 masks.

Regards, Dieter

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

[Yansi]

Of course it is fair, but only to those greedy ones with powers 

[Kjelt]

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

Neoliberalist capitalism is also destroying itself with too big monopolistic companies that just buy up every competition and kill it. Stockholders that earn thousand times more money than the persons who do the actual real work which makes the profits and so on. There is a new redistribution of money, power and work needed in this world and we should consume less energy till we have found a good sudtainable energy source. But next day nothing changes.

[S. Petrukhin]

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

Neoliberalist capitalism is also destroying itself with too big monopolistic companies that just buy up every competition and kill it. Stockholders that earn thousand times more money than the persons who do the actual real work which makes the profits and so on. There is a new redistribution of money, power and work needed in this world and we should consume less energy till we have found a good sudtainable energy source. But next day nothing changes.

Unfortunately, the government in most countries is a commercial project. People talk a lot, but they do very little useful, and yet they get paid for it. Well, they come up with threats, which they then "fight" themselves so that society considers the government necessary. I don't see any limit to this and any changes for the better. On the contrary, governments are becoming more arrogant, stupid, and insatiable.

[Kjelt]

We are the government, at least that is how it is supposed to work 

[dietert1]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

[Yansi]

But the difference is, that you really pay $6 for the PCBs. The rest is shipping,  VAT + other customs fee and customs services by the shipping company.

You just can't blame JLC or China, that you have to pay your VAT, customs fees and for shipping.   

[ebastler]

It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50.

I don't think so. If you want it express-delivered, by a courier service which charges significant customs handling fees on top of a significant shipping charge, that's your choice. You can always opt for slow-boat delivery, which sometimes is even included in the base price.

It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device.

I don't think so. Why would the term "pulse oximeter" be reserved for certified medical devices? Although I would personally not want to buy a non-certified one.

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

[S. Petrukhin]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

You seem a little upset about the intrusion into your comfort zone. 
I do not know how Europe is free from low-quality and counterfeit goods, how much certification protects you.
You have a long culture of market consumption, and you should be immune in people. Doesn't that help? Maybe the European bureaucracy is no longer effective?

In any case, the price coordinate system of Europe and China is different. Partly because of the different standard of living, partly because of the different distribution of resources.

But I assure you the PCB is sold for $2. Before the transport system was destroyed by the sheep-virus, I could have a delivery by Russian post for $6. Agree, this is a good price for air travel from China to Russia.

There are 4 modern PCB production facilities in my city, some of them are closed and work for the army. There are several businesses in the neighboring town. I asked them: why do the Chinese offer me 24 hours to make a PCB that costs $2, and you need 2 weeks and the cost is 10-20 times more expensive. They tell me: the Chinese have a massive accumulation of orders, they have a continuous process, and we have overhead costs for individual production in any time. It turns out a vicious circle: local manufacturers can't collect many orders to share the overhead and so the price is expensive, but because of the expensive price, there are not many orders.

Chinese guys are great - they work hard and get recognition. And, please note, the Chinese do not act as is customary in the Western world: their price has not increased for many years. They do not engage in dumping to destroy competitors. They work conscientiously for the benefit of people. A Western monopolist would quickly crush competition with low prices, and then gradually start raising prices. Again, I don't know how it is in Europe, but we see it very well in Russia.

Moreover, modern sales management is so strong and has powerful tools, almost hypnosis, to sell anything.

[wraper]

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

Both of you apparently do not know how air filters work. It's not like there are small holes which should not pass the particle.

[2N3055]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

With do all respect, DHL is a German shit of a company that is extorting us. And taxes on a 30 USD shipment (including 20 USD for DHL without which it wouldn't even have to taxed) to government would be some 7.5 euros.  So for me that would be 10 USD to JLCPCB for actual boards,  20 USD to German DHL for shipment and another 30-40 USD for customs clearance process fee, and 7,5 USD to Croatian government. So yeah, those Chinese that did all the production for 10 USD, yeah, they are the assholes... 

JLCPCB 10 USD (manufacturing)
DHL 20 USD (transport)
DHL 40 USD (bureaucracy)
Croatian government 7,5 USD (tax )

JLCPCB don't belong to the same sentence as those fake cheats that sell fake medical devices. Do not insult them. They are making honest to God PCBs, at prices that allows us to make our products in EU without paying extortion money for few boards locally... If EU board houses were 20-30% more expensive, I would support them with all my heart. And would receive boards faster and no customs. I prefer EU sources. PCBs are only thing that I import outside EU. Price differences are not 40%, they are 400-500%.  No thanks. I took a look at JLCPCB factory floor. There is no Chinese cheap labor there. Factory is super high tech, and there is no reason why EU couldn't have one like that and make profit with 40-50 % higher price than JLCPCB. Actually there is reason, greed and fact that nobody wants to do any manufacturing anymore, unless they can charge you king's ransom..

[S. Petrukhin]

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

Both of you apparently do not know how air filters work. It's not like there are small holes which should not pass the particle.

It seems to me that there is no saturation and no ability to avoid saturation in this picture.

As for protective masks, this is a great stupidity of mankind, as well as other antibacterial agents. So far, there are no effective ways to resist viruses, except for their own immunity. By helping his supposedly immune system, we spoiled him, and he became weak. This is some kind of obscurantism that will destroy people. This is my opinion. Maybe it's wrong.

[johnnieee]

I absolutely love JLCPCB+DHL.  I've ordered from seeedstudio and I was happy with them, but JLC is just faster.  I've never had issues with customs or fees or anything(I'm in the US).

Has anyone had recent (past few months) experience with shipping JLCPCB boards to the United States? I'm about to place my first order, and it looks like my options are DHL or FedEx International Priority. I'm curious what to expect for the customs experience here. Thanks!

[wraper]

I'm curious what to expect for the customs experience here. Thanks!

Get them simply delivered without questions unless you make an order of over $800.

[ebastler]

Both of you apparently do not know how air filters work. It's not like there are small holes which should not pass the particle.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. 

I am well aware that the pore size is much larger than the particles to be filtered. But it is nowhere near 100 µm in an FFP2 (or N95) mask, which was the pore size stated above by dietert as an example for an unsuitable mask.



"N95-electrocharged filtration principle based face mask design using common materials",
Mahesh M. Bandi, Nonlinear and Non-equilibrium Physics Unit, OIST Graduate University
https://groups.oist.jp/nnp/diy-face-mask

[Zoli]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Hi,

I think that you should have chosen the DDP option:

(Attachment Link)


DDP means 'Delivered Duty Paid'. This option means that you should not be stung with additional charges by DHL.

Has anybody had any experience with the DHL DPP option in Canada?

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

As I've said in post #98 of this thread, I've ordered DHL DPP then, and twice more since then.
And I'm pretty sure that most of the readers are interested in the prices, so here we go:
Order #1: CAD $13.09 PCB's, CAD $38.35 shipping
Order #2: CAD $19.50 PCB's, CAD $39.86 shipping
Order #3: CAD $68.48 PCB's, CAD $52.75 shipping
And as I've said previously, no extra charges at delivery time.
All of the orders arrived in less than 8 days from payment to delivery(twice ROHS HASL, one ENIG).

[logiclrd]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Hi,

I think that you should have chosen the DDP option:
[..]
DDP means 'Delivered Duty Paid'. This option means that you should not be stung with additional charges by DHL.

That makes a lot of sense. I didn't know what that meant at the time, but in future orders I think I'll be using that option :-)

Thanks!

[drussell]

Indeed, as stated above several times, when you're ordering from somewhere that does enough volume to have a pre-approval, pre-clearance customs option available from a shipper, (as JLCPCB seems to have for some countries) you would be insane not to use it. 

That will be guaranteed to be the least expensive way (except perhaps regular post to some countries) because they have a special deal to clear things in batches and they do all the necessary import processing.  What most people here seem to be annoyed with is the lack of that option being available to them, or perhaps mistakenly not using it when available...   

[logiclrd]

I don't like the fee either, but, hey, I wouldn't want to work for free, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

I guess the thing that gets me is that they charge this huge fee separately from the shipping. As far as I can tell, they know they're going to charge it. It's not like it was a surprise to them. So, it feels like they're being deliberately deceptive, not bundling it into the initial shipping fee. If they know for certain that they're going to be charging the fee, then instead of saying "Shipping is $19" followed by "$15 fee to clear customs, plus $5 customs & tax", I feel it would be more honest for them to say "$34 for shipping, and you'll get a bill later for just the customs and tax". To place an order, pay for shipping and everything, and then be hit by a follow-up bill that's way more than the actual customs & tax, well, it really stings.

At least they don't wait until weeks after delivery, like I've had FedEx do to me.

[wraper]

I don't like the fee either, but, hey, I wouldn't want to work for free, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

I guess the thing that gets me is that they charge this huge fee separately from the shipping. As far as I can tell, they know they're going to charge it. It's not like it was a surprise to them. So, it feels like they're being deliberately deceptive, not bundling it into the initial shipping fee. If they know for certain that they're going to be charging the fee, then instead of saying "Shipping is $19" followed by "$15 fee to clear customs, plus $5 customs & tax", I feel it would be more honest for them to say "$34 for shipping, and you'll get a bill later for just the customs and tax". To place an order, pay for shipping and everything, and then be hit by a follow-up bill that's way more than the actual customs & tax, well, it really stings.

At least they don't wait until weeks after delivery, like I've had FedEx do to me.

How can they charge that when then they don't do the clearance? Nor they know how much customer will be charged in each particular case. If you cannot be bothered with figuring out how importing goods works, do not import. Also low value goods below CAD $20 do not require clearance. If you local DHL still wants to charge you, blame your local DHL, not JLCPCB.

[2N3055]

I don't like the fee either, but, hey, I wouldn't want to work for free, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

I guess the thing that gets me is that they charge this huge fee separately from the shipping. As far as I can tell, they know they're going to charge it. It's not like it was a surprise to them. So, it feels like they're being deliberately deceptive, not bundling it into the initial shipping fee. If they know for certain that they're going to be charging the fee, then instead of saying "Shipping is $19" followed by "$15 fee to clear customs, plus $5 customs & tax", I feel it would be more honest for them to say "$34 for shipping, and you'll get a bill later for just the customs and tax". To place an order, pay for shipping and everything, and then be hit by a follow-up bill that's way more than the actual customs & tax, well, it really stings.

At least they don't wait until weeks after delivery, like I've had FedEx do to me.

Technically, it would be wrong to combine those. They are different things. And some are not known upfront, until shipment reaches your customs office and customs declaration is drawn up.
Goods and transport cost combines to single sum that gets customs on it. And, depending of country, goods and position of planets, Customs office in your country will magically produce some number of tax+customs fees.  And your agent will send you their bill for the effort..

That is why customs unions (like NAFTA or EU) are so great.. It is COMPLICATED to import stuff from other countries...

[wraper]

Goods and transport cost combines to single sum that gets customs on it. And, depending of country, goods and position of planets, Customs office in your country will magically produce some number of tax+customs fees.  And your agent will send you their bill for the effort..

That is why customs unions (like NAFTA or EU) are so great.. It is COMPLICATED to import stuff from other countries...

Actually nope. At least in EU and many other places the amount you need to pay depends on how customs broker (say DHL) declared it. And because they are lazy bastards, often you need to pay more than you owe. They may simply slap statistical shipping cost on top of invoice which already includes it. Actual customs only approve customs declaration at best. Also shipping cost is not included in tax free threshold. Our EUR 22 limit does not include shipping cost. However shipping cost is also subject to VAT once tax free threshold is exceeded.
BTW I do customs clearance for my business myself. And as is it's for business, I need to do a full blown procedure with TARIC codes for each type of item, other codes applicable to some goods (say if there may be goods of military use with such code, and it's basically half of components) and documents supplied. Procedure code depending on total value, value of each item and so on  . A big convoluted PITA in a nutshell. On my first two attempts, I gave up and paid to customs broker in the end. My friend who runs a logistics company said that I'm the only person he knows who does (business) clearance himself instead of paying to customs broker.
Here it's much easier for individual though. Simply go to a website. Fill in with your words what goods there are and their value. Upload an invoice or some other document and it's done. When customs broker does it fo you, they go a full procedure regardless of recipient being business or individual.

[dietert1]

I also got a customs registration to be able and declare myself. It happened about 15 years ago when i was importing electronics from USA. I may have done about 200 declarations since then. But never ever i had to declare anything from China. First because they lie about the value but sometimes i suspect the German government has secret deals with China. Or there is such a flood of small packets arriving from China that they gave up.

Recently i got two nice aluminum enclosures from China. My packet did not contain two kits but somebody packed a kit for making two enclosures - amazing. I only buy simple things from China like mechanical parts, plugs and the like. Maybe PCBs are in that category nowadays.

Regards, Dieter

[Yansi]

That is, because in EU (including DE), anything below 22€ is not required to be processed for VAT and customs fees.  If the customs do not have suspicion the goods are over 22€, they don't catch it for further processing.

The declared value on the package is only informative and from my experince, they don't give ratss ass about what's written there. However in case the declared value is over 22€, their duty is to take the thing for customs processing - at least to get you to pay VAT (and above 150€, even customs duty may be applied).

This is however subject to change, beginning 2021, not sure, June/July or when. Everything imported will be eligible for the import customs processing, so that the state, or EU respectively, can milk the end user even more.

Because, it is not big corporations, that will get beaten by this. It is always the end customer.  And then talk about sustainability in EU...

[balage]

This is however subject to change, beginning 2021, not sure, June/July or when. Everything imported will be eligible for the import customs processing, so that the state, or EU respectively, can milk the end user even more.

Is this true for Germany only or for the whole EU in general? Shit seems happen.

[Yansi]

As far as I know, this shit was pushed from top of the EU. So, rules for all.

[daveismissing]

The option I chose this week says FEDEX INTL Priority specifically.
Now FEDEX INTL PRIORITY has all brokerage and customs charges built into the price.
I will be very annoyed if JCL lied about what service they used on my order.

I think you delude yourself. Unless it says DDP, nothing is included. But items below CAD $20 are not taxable.

"Customs clearance is included with every FedEx Express international shipment, "
https://www.fedex.com/en-ca/shipping-services/service-options/international-broker-select.html

[logiclrd]

How can they charge that when then they don't do the clearance? Nor they know how much customer will be charged in each particular case. If you cannot be bothered with figuring out how importing goods works, do not import. Also low value goods below CAD $20 do not require clearance. If you local DHL still wants to charge you, blame your local DHL, not JLCPCB.

I apologize, I wasn't clear. I'm saying that DHL is being deceptive by separating these things out. DHL knows they're going to be doing this additional work, and they know in advance that they're going to be sending you a bill for more money. They should simply be telling JLCPCB that the shipping cost to pass on to you includes the service fee.

[logiclrd]

Technically, it would be wrong to combine those. They are different things. And some are not known upfront, until shipment reaches your customs office and customs declaration is drawn up.
Goods and transport cost combines to single sum that gets customs on it. And, depending of country, goods and position of planets, Customs office in your country will magically produce some number of tax+customs fees.  And your agent will send you their bill for the effort..

That is why customs unions (like NAFTA or EU) are so great.. It is COMPLICATED to import stuff from other countries...

Okay. But, I was wrong about the shipment being in my country already. It's actually still in transit in other countries. It hasn't even reached the Canadian border yet, and they're already sending me a bill for customs exceeding 50% of the item's value and a $15 additional charge for their trouble. This tells me that they know they're going to be charging this before the item is even shipped. It would be different if it arrived in Canada, and then they had to send me a message saying, "Sorry, we can't release it to you because we've just discovered a thing that needs to be resolved w.r.t. customs."

[drussell]

I apologize, I wasn't clear. I'm saying that DHL is being deceptive by separating these things out. DHL knows they're going to be doing this additional work, and they know in advance that they're going to be sending you a bill for more money.

   WTF are you talking about?

How on earth is the shipping company supposed to magically know whether the item they're couriering for you is a warranty return, a box of paperwork with no commercial value or a product that will require import paperwork and potentially duties, taxes, etc....   

It's not THEIR fault...

They should simply be telling JLCPCB that the shipping cost to pass on to you includes the service fee.

That's why JLCPCB helpfully offers at least one option that already includes customs clearance, duties and taxes already done for you.  Use that option instead of complaining about your lack of knowledge surrounding import procedures.   

[drussell]

Okay. But, I was wrong about the shipment being in my country already. It's actually still in transit in other countries. It hasn't even reached the Canadian border yet, and they're already sending me a bill for customs exceeding 50% of the item's value and a $15 additional charge for their trouble.

That's awesome!

That means they're trying to get the paperwork done for you while it is still in transit so it can clear as quickly as possible when it arrives.  If you knew you were going to use a third party brokerage service or something, you need to have JLCPCB indicate that on the shipping end with the info for your 3rd party broker so they can hand all that off to them instead of doing it for you using their internal brokerage service as the default that they explicitly state.  Read the shipping terms, my friend!

This tells me that they know they're going to be charging this before the item is even shipped. It would be different if it arrived in Canada, and then they had to send me a message saying, "Sorry, we can't release it to you because we've just discovered a thing that needs to be resolved w.r.t. customs."

So you would rather wait days or weeks later to do it once it arrives in a giant logjam of packages?

Ok, whatever....  You must be on some seriously good drugs or something...   

I wouldn't even be able to ship a 12AX7 vacuum tube across the street from me via Canada Post for less than about $20.  Just because the shipping cost, landed, is several times what you pay for a discount, loss-leader PCB used to fill up otherwise incomplete panels in the FAB, you seem to think that it is an unreasonable price to pay.  I really don't believe I can concur with your assessment.

You seem to just be annoyed because it costs several times what the PCBs themselves cost in China to actually transport them half way around the globe to get them here to you.  You could go pick them up yourself in China, but I daresay that would cost you an awful lot more than what DHL is charging you to get them here on your behalf.   

[asmi]

Okay. But, I was wrong about the shipment being in my country already. It's actually still in transit in other countries. It hasn't even reached the Canadian border yet, and they're already sending me a bill for customs exceeding 50% of the item's value and a $15 additional charge for their trouble. This tells me that they know they're going to be charging this before the item is even shipped. It would be different if it arrived in Canada, and then they had to send me a message saying, "Sorry, we can't release it to you because we've just discovered a thing that needs to be resolved w.r.t. customs."

That's because they are doing the clearance in parallel with shipping, to make it less likely to be delayed on the border. But the fun part is that due to whole virus thingy, they no longer accept payments on delivery, so now you have to pay before you even have a chance to see the actual invoice (notification just tells you the total amount you've got to pay). So if you want to dispute anything there, you will have to fight it after you paid it off. And, unless the charge is ridiculously large, then it becomes a question of whether it's even worth your time to fight for a few bucks if they declared something incorrectly (brokerage fee is not disputable, they will charge it no matter what).
In the future always try using DDP options if at all possible, this way you will know the total landed cost upfront. That will come out cheaper than "traditional" DAP, and, more importantly, there guaranteed to be no nasty surprises with weird-ass costs that will suddenly show up in your invoice.

[Microdoser]

Looking on the JLCPCB order page, they make sure to split the shipping into two sections, one with pre-paid taxes (DDP) and one where '(Duty, customs and GST collected at the time of delivery)' so IMO it really is a case where Caveat Emptor applies.
I have dealt with the extra costs and hassle involved with getting a parcel through customs which is why I now always choose the much cheaper but slower EuroPacket option. Sure, it takes 2 weeks to get here but there is no rubbish regarding customs on the way and I know there will not be any surprise costs later on. Choosing to have the boards in 9-11 days after ordering compared to 12-14 days is not worth doubling the overall cost to me.

As a FYI, if ever anyone has this problem with FEDEX, I have always sent them this email and they have always waived their fee without question and only charged the import duty. Just change the bolded text to suit your position. This does not work with Royal Mail (UK) as they have a contract with excise and customs to collect a fee and they will not waiver on that. It may work on DHL, but I have not tried with them.
 
Dear FedEx,
This is in reference to invoice #XXXXXXXXXX
After having bought items from Switzerland, I understood there would be the possibility of VAT due on receiving them.
I was however surprised to see an additional section for a clearance administration charge of £12.
I of course will pay the VAT due.
However, I refuse to pay the clearance admin charge of £12, since at no point was I made aware of, nor did I agree to, any terms and conditions which clearly stated that I would be liable for any such charges.
At no point in the transaction and subsequent delivery was any contract for a clearance administration charge made between FedEx and myself.
I paid the supplier for delivery, and would expect that any international clearance fees be factored into the initial cost of such a shipment.
If you want to pursue further charges for delivery or administration or the terms upon which goods are shipped, I suggest that you take it up with the company who shipped the goods initially.
Therefore, I request that you update this invoice to reflect no admin fee, and once that has been done I’ll make immediate payment.
Please let me know when this has been done.
Kind Regards,
Microdoser
 
   

[rsjsouza]

I don't like to pay fees just like the next person, but there's a cost for everything. Also, this thread shows how some companies don't even think about dealing with end customers or low volume projects. It is a lot of flak for a few dollars.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

"Customs clearance is included with every FedEx Express international shipment, "
https://www.fedex.com/en-ca/shipping-services/service-options/international-broker-select.html

Daveismissing and the group,

I would be careful with this option. Fedex will clear the packages through customs, by providing brokerage services, but there is a reasonable charge for them doing this. On low value shipments, this charge seems disproportionate to the value of the shipment and the taxes collected. There is very little info on the Fedex website regarding these brokerage charges. I wouldn't be surprised if brokerage charges are a big profit center for Fedex.

The only safe way, is if they says 'DDP'.

Digikey, when you order from Digikey.ca, ships DDP from their warehouse in the USA. They have worked out a special rate with Fedex. They do it right.

I am just about to order from JLCPCB for the first time. I am ordering multiple boards and I will use the DDP option.

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

[Microdoser]

As I mentioned above, 100% of the time I have had success getting FEDEX to waive their charge by sending them the template email I posted. The import duty is still required to be paid, but you can avoid a disproportionate charge on low value items.

[wraper]

As I mentioned above, 100% of the time I have had success getting FEDEX to waive their charge by sending them the template email I posted. The import duty is still required to be paid, but you can avoid a disproportionate charge on low value items.

It's not clear if they invoiced you before or after delivery happened. If it's before, nothing stops them from telling you to sod off and not deliver anything.

[drussell]

Interestingly, currently most of FedEx' offerings do specifically state that they include complementary basic customs clearance, but maybe that is just because I'm looking at it on the .ca site, so they're only talking about shipping it out?  I honestly don't know.  They used to very specifically state that it was included on the highest service level or two, now in my cursory glance the other day it seems to always say included.  Very strange.

[KaneTW]

As I mentioned above, 100% of the time I have had success getting FEDEX to waive their charge by sending them the template email I posted. The import duty is still required to be paid, but you can avoid a disproportionate charge on low value items.

It's not clear if they invoiced you before or after delivery happened. If it's before, nothing stops them from telling you to sod off and not deliver anything.

They always invoice after delivery.

[wraper]

They always invoice after delivery.

Neither Fedex, DHL or any other does it where I live. Nor they do anything with customs clearance before contacting recipient, even if it's a company they have a contract with.

[Microdoser]

Quote from: wraper on Today at 01:19:01 pm>Quote from: Microdoser on Today at 12:35:02 pm

As I mentioned above, 100% of the time I have had success getting FEDEX to waive their charge by sending them the template email I posted. The import duty is still required to be paid, but you can avoid a disproportionate charge on low value items.

It's not clear if they invoiced you before or after delivery happened. If it's before, nothing stops them from telling you to sod off and not deliver anything

It was a while ago, I think they deliver then invoice you.
Like I say, this may only apply to the UK.
YMMV

[themadhippy]

look on the bright side,from jan 1st the uk will have a whole host of new rules,costs and confusion to look forward to when importing or exporting goods

[Siwastaja]

DHL for example used to invoice after delivery many years ago, but they probably got quite many replies in lines of "I'm not gonna pay for this bill, I have no contract with you, please sue me and show the court our contract", they soon realized it's better for their business to hold the packages hostage until 40EUR for automated one-minute job has been sucked out of the customer. At the same time, they came up with the idea that you can also do that one-minute job yourself and still pay 40EUR.

Oh boy they were widely hated after these changes.

Before that day, everybody totally loved DHL and FedEx because brokerage was free-of-charge and UPS was the only one billing for 20EUR for the job. But it changed so suddenly.

[thinkfat]

DHL require a contract with you before they do customs clearance on your behalf. Duties, taxes plus their service fee will be collected by them at point of delivery, your door. I actually sent their delivery driver away recently because he tried to collect cash. I afterwards had a quite unpleasant conversation with the help desk who only eventually, after a lot of complaining on my side showed me a web site that allowed me to pay online.

[wraper]

DHL require a contract with you before they do customs clearance on your behalf. Duties, taxes plus their service fee will be collected by them at point of delivery, your door. I actually sent their delivery driver away recently because he tried to collect cash. I afterwards had a quite unpleasant conversation with the help desk who only eventually, after a lot of complaining on my side showed me a web site that allowed me to pay online.

In Latvia by law only state owned Latvia Post is allowed to do clearance by themselves. Any other customs broker needs a signed authorization to act on behalf of recipient and upload its scan/photo into the customs system. Thus it's simply impossible for them to act behind your back. And since a few years ago any individual can do clearance online, so their service became pretty much redundant for any individual customer with internet and a little bit of brain. But effing DHL charges me EUR 12+ VAT even when I do clearance for my corporate shipments myself, for a favor of providing me required documents, and calling it "administrative service" (they don't charge individuals for that). The funny part is they forgot to charge me that when I made clearance myself for the first time. The second time they asked who will pay for that, and charged me for the previous shipment as well.  So fuck you DHL, now I avoid using them when possible and use FedEx instead, even if it's a bit more expensive.

[exe]

I wonder if one day a big Asian delivery service decides to expand in Europe and take a bite of dhl market share in delivery.

BTW, the process doesn't need to be that complex, I think. How it worked for me in the Netherlands: I paid +21% on top of value declared on the parcel plus 7euro "processing fee". Then I was let to take the parcel from the collection point.

[ve7xen]

"Customs clearance is included with every FedEx Express international shipment, "
https://www.fedex.com/en-ca/shipping-services/service-options/international-broker-select.html

Daveismissing and the group,

I would be careful with this option. Fedex will clear the packages through customs, by providing brokerage services, but there is a reasonable charge for them doing this. On low value shipments, this charge seems disproportionate to the value of the shipment and the taxes collected. There is very little info on the Fedex website regarding these brokerage charges. I wouldn't be surprised if brokerage charges are a big profit center for Fedex.

The only safe way, is if they says 'DDP'.

Digikey, when you order from Digikey.ca, ships DDP from their warehouse in the USA. They have worked out a special rate with Fedex. They do it right.

I am just about to order from JLCPCB for the first time. I am ordering multiple boards and I will use the DDP option.

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

FedEx services on the FedEx Express 'network' (which includes International Priority) include the brokerage and its fee. You will be billed COD for any tax/duty that is due as well as at least the Disbursement Fee (min $10, 2.5% of owed tax/duties) for lending you the money. Be careful if your order has a lot of line items. I find this is usually cheaper and much more likely to be available than a DDP service, but you do take on a bit more risk. All of the fees are outlined here: https://www.fedex.com/en-ca/ancillary-clearance-service.html

You must still be very careful though as there are other FedEx services that don't include this, and it's not always clear in the shipping options exactly which service is meant or whether it is FedEx Express or not. I have also had shippers claim they will use one service, and substitute a different one that then charges. UPS and DHL are both pretty bad with the fees, FedEx isn't too bad as long as it's an Express service. It's very frustrating how opaque they make this though, I also think that while assessing the duty/tax in every situation is unreasonable to expect, they should know the declared value up front, and thus should be able to include most of the 'fees' up front too.

The safest option is either a DDP service or something that is delivered by the regular mail (e.g. ePacket). At least in Canada, Canada Post usually doesn't bother to charge the taxes at all, and when they do, the fees are reasonable.

Only DHL has ever tried to collect anything from me on an exempt shipment (<$20 CAD, except from NAFTA countries <$40 CAD).

[Alex Eisenhut]

I wonder if you can invoice UPS or FEDEX or whoever for a "handling fee" to pay their invoice?

[Microdoser]

I wonder if you can invoice UPS or FEDEX or whoever for a "handling fee" to pay their invoice?

Reminds me of a scam I heard about years ago where a person would make up a legitimate-sounding business and then send an invoice to a large company where the only item on the invoice was for billing.

The idea was that larger companies would just rubber-stamp an invoice that looked legitimate under some set amount.

[Terry Bites]

DHL Woes
God I hate them interfering in my TAX. Fair enough if I'm importing materials for commercial purposes but for my own meager private projects, nah. Some PCB houses in the far east will label your box as gift on the customs label (I've heard).

DHL are also incredibly unhelpful in giving you information that helps you claim back duty. Boycott!

[JohnnyMalaria]

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this - it's the shipment tracking information for a JLCPCB order that's on its way. It replaces an identical order that was sent DHL but never arrived even though DHL claim to have delivered it.

Note the reason for shipment: "Temporary export other,"

The package has cleared US customs and, as far as I know, it will be delivered without me having to pay anything extra.

[thinkfat]

I'm nowadays exclusively using the DDP option when ordering from jlcpcb. I'm sick of the hassle with DHL and their dysfunctional tax and customs handling.

[Microdoser]

I'm nowadays exclusively using the DDP option when ordering from jlcpcb. I'm sick of the hassle with DHL and their dysfunctional tax and customs handling.

Same here. As far as I can tell it costs less than paying later and you don't get unwanted delays to your boards.

[ricard2k]

I use DHL customs clearance as I use this boards for work. Usually I buy them with SMD mounting, and I don't want deal with Customs.
The service is not cheap, true. But it is not too different from UPS or other carriers.
About the concerns of the use of your personal data. I don't understand... This is the required data from customs.