Which Software???? So many choices

[thedrummer2016]

Hello All,

First of all I am a long time fan of EEVBLOG but I just joined the forums. I am an EE who has spent most of my career in the industrial automation industry and am now getting started doing real circuit board design. I have designed a few hobby boards and have used Eagle, KiCAD and MultiSim a little but i'm certainly not biased towards these. I'm trying to decide which is the best way to go when it comes to circuit board design and simulation software. I have spent quite a bit of time reading forums and other material on the many products out there but I would like to hear from you guys what you recommend for someone who is starting out with commercial / Industrial board design. I can spend some money on this and I am willing to learn a new product.

In my opinion most of the chips these days are not easy to breadboard without soldering them onto an adapter board which is very time consuming to test a very simple circuit so I find that using a simulator really cuts down on my development time. I have used MultiSim and find I that I both love and hate it. When its not complaining for some unknown reason its worth every penny but I have spent most of my time trying to figure out why my circuit worked 5 minutes ago and now it doesn't even though I made no changes.

I really appreciate any comments suggestions!

[DerekG]

I'm trying to decide which is the best way to go when it comes to circuit board design and simulation software.

It really depends how complex your boards are & how much money you will earn from your designs. Altium Designer is one of the mostly wide used professional PCB design suites. Cost is approx US$9K but you can often barter with them a bit. Consider buying a cheap package from someone else & doing a cross-grade, or using their lower end Circuit Studio package.

Learning curve of AD is quite high, but it is fairly powerful. There are other expensive packages around such as Mentor.

You mention KiCAD. It is not nearly so powerful as AD but it might do all you require & it is free. The fact that you can't have any background colour in the schematic package other than white & the only background colour in the PCB package on offer is black, just goes to show that there is much room left for improvement.

I have AD, Proteus & DipTrace. I like DipTrace the most & so it is my tool of choice.

In my opinion most of the chips these days are not easy to breadboard without soldering them onto an adapter board which is very time consuming to test a very simple circuit

This is hardly worth your time. Have your prototype boards cheaply made in China. You will have them in a week. Then send them out to a contract SMD assembler for populating.

I have used MultiSim and find I that I both love and hate it. When its not complaining for some unknown reason its worth every penny but I have spent most of my time trying to figure out why my circuit worked 5 minutes ago and now it doesn't even though I made no changes.

Remember that MultiSim seems not to like a computer going into "hibernate" or "suspend" mode. Don 't have too many other programs running & always shut your computer down & do a full restart.

Not sure what else you can use as MultiSim is one of the more powerful simulators. Your alternatives are LT Spice & its derivatives.

I hope this all helps

[thedrummer2016]

Thank you guys for the information. I have read both good and bad about AD. In general I do tend to see more of the professional users leaning that direction. I read that it has a simulator but also that it is not very good. What are your thoughts on this?

As far as multisim goes, I used Electronics Workbench in college and have found its GUI to be one of the easiest i've played with. I just downloaded a full trial of the latest v14.1 which honestly doesnt look a whole lot different from prior versions. When I simulate circuits it likes to throw convergence errors most every time I try to simulate. I have read the troubleshooting guides and made several suggested setting tweaks but it seems like I have to tweak every time I want to simulate. I know that once you get into detailed analysis you want to tweak the environment to provide desired results but to me it seems that it should be easier to just simply test basic analog circuits with a few power supplies, op amps, transistors, etc... without too much tweaking.

Thanks again for your help and look forward to additional comments!

[JohnPen]

Purely as a hobbyist, with no experience of the more expensive CAD software, I have tried the following limited/free packages.  Express which seemed relatively easy to learn but constrained one to use Express for pcb production which was very expensive for a 'one off'.  I then tried Eagle but found it harder to use it just seemed awkward even for the schematic.  Next I tried KiCad which I also found awkward and somewhat fiddly to get to grips with.  Finally I tried the limited free Dip Trace package and the difference was amazing it was so straightforward.  I found I could build a schematic very easily and also the subsequent pcb layout.  I have had 2 simple board design produced via Elecrow with no problems so I am very happy with Dip Trace.  My only niggle was I found the Dip Trace component library a little confusing.  Obviously my experience is very limited and perhaps I had 'improved' as I tried each package. Currently I can certainly manage with the limited version of Dip Trace but it definitely has my vote.  Of course there are many other packages I have not tried. It all depends on whether you need to purchase a full package, any costs involved, and the degree of complexity of your pcb designs. With regard to simulation I have only used LTSpice directly not via CAD packages.   

Best of luck   

[DerekG]

My only niggle was I found the Dip Trace component library a little confusing.

A lot of improvements were made from Ver 2.9 onwards.

The easy way is to make your component inside your schematic or pcb. Place all the elements for your component onto your workspace, then highlight them, right click & choose "Group Component", then right click again & give the new component a name, then right click again & choose "Add to Library" & select the name of your own personal library which will already be shown if your library is already open.

Remember you can't add or change the DipTrace default libraries. Always save your library in another folder outside of any of the DipTrace folders so it is not overwritten should you download & install a later version.

If there is a component in one of the standard Diptrace libraries that is close to what you want, place it on your worksheet (or PCB), then right click to "Ungroup" it, then change the elements to what you want, then carry out the procedure in the paragraph above to save it to your own personal library.

Once you have done this a couple of times, all will fall into place as being quite easy & logical.

[JohnPen]

Thanks Derek,

 I did notice a minor pinning polarity error on one of the capacitors in the discrete library namely CAP400AP. It showed up when plotting the pcb layout! The rest of the CAPnnnAPs were all correct.  I reported it via the Bug reporting interface on the Dip Trace forum and was pleased to get a response within a couple of days.  The next update of the library will be correcting the error.

[alexanderbrevig]

I would suggest you try as many as you can, that's what I did anyways...

I've ended up buying DipTrace for my small business, but I just as often use KiCAD because I'm often hired to do open source projects. It just feels more natural to make open source using open source tools. I'm on the daily releases BTW. Version 5 will be awesome, the daily builds already are.

Good luck!

[voltsandjolts]

Which Software? So many choices

Nobody here can give you a definitive answer, its your choice, to answer your set of criteria.

[asmi]

I would suggest to take a look at Orcad PCB Editor package. One great advantage it has is that it can literally "grow" with you, meaning all license levels from basic PCB Standard all the way up to Allegro is essentially the same tool, same GUI, same workflow. So you can start low and upgrade as you need. It also contains good HSPICE/IBIS simulator (it's available at all license levels) which is extremely useful for routing high-speed traces.

[DerekG]

I would suggest to take a look at Orcad PCB Editor package.

There is some pricing on the EMA (a Cadence Channel Partner serving North America) website.

OrCAD Standard (starting at) US$1300 & OrCAD Professional (starting at US$2300). These prices appear to be very good value for the features offered.

https://www.ema-eda.com/products/cadence-orcad/orcad-pcb-designer-suite

I note however that you have to purchase Cadence's top end product Allegro PCB (which is much more expensive than Altium Designer) to access the following features:

Advanced auto-interactive routing
Complete HDI and embedded design support
Rigid flex-aware routing and placement
Advanced manufacturing checks and rules

These features are found as standard within Altium Designer.

ADDED: I have located some pricing on Allegro PCB (from 2015) of US$25K:

http://referencedesigner.com/blog/price-comparison-of-allegro-altium-and-pads/2389/

I also note that Tesla are using Cadence design software.

[asmi]

I note however that you have to purchase Cadence's top end product Allegro PCB (which is much more expensive than Altium Designer) to access the following features:

Advanced auto-interactive routing
Complete HDI and embedded design support
Rigid flex-aware routing and placement
Advanced manufacturing checks and rules

These features are found as standard within Altium Designer.

That is not entirely correct. "Auto-interactive routing" is Specctra autorouter. It's available at Pro level as well, but it only supports up to 6 signal layers at a time, and it doesn't support differential pairs. I personally never used it anyway as I prefer to route things manually.
Next, I'm not entirely sure when they mean by "Complete HDI and embedded design support", but I can use microvias at Pro level just as well. Same goes for other things you've mentioned (rigid-flex boards are supported at Pro level).

One thing I really like about Orcad/Allegro is that features available at higher levels of license can be emulated at lower levels, even if it will be more involved. Good example is via z-length support to calculate trace length for the purpose of length matching - this is accounted for automatically at Allegro level, but can be accounted for manually by adding per-trace offset. So higher level licences are meant to increase productivity.

Also all levels of Orcad have good HSPICE/IBIS simulator, while the one in AD is considered to be much more inferior.

Lastly Orcad is much more reliable - it never crashed on me, nor did I have any issues with something not working as it should.

[DerekG]

That is not entirely correct. "Auto-interactive routing" is Specctra autorouter.

This feature is built into Altium's own Situs topological autorouter which comes standard in Altium Designer.

Having said all of the above, it does appear that both the entry level Orcad packages are very good value, offering considerably more than Altium's own entry level package Circuit Studio.

[asmi]

Having said all of the above, it does appear that both the entry level Orcad packages are very good value, offering considerably more than Altium's own entry level package Circuit Studio.

One thing that is definitely goes for Cadence is that they are willing to give huge discounts to hobbyists - as "advanced" hobbyist myself I only paid $1750 (+$100 for USB HASP key) for my Professional license, while Altium didn't offer any discount. Despite that discount there is no "non-commercial use" clause in my license, so I will ever get to selling my boards, I can absolutely do that.

And yes, Orcad PCB Pro gives much more that Circuit Studio. One thing that put me off CS is lack of length matching groups, which was critical for my designs. But having IBIS sim has proved to be super-useful as all my high-speed traces so far worked with no problems on a first try. This feature is also absent in CS as far as I remember. And there is no way to get these features without going all the way into AD, which is too expensive for me.

[Deridex]

If i remember correctly, KiCad is gonna get a spice simulator. So it might be worth to wait a bit. Even though i do not know the release-date of the next major version.

As for the big EDA-packages like AD etc:
I can only recommend to calculate in the time and cost of a real tutorial/training (i think it can be up to a few k€).
Yes i think it's possible to use this tools without it. But i think you gonna waste alot time because of not knowing some nice little tweaks that can save so much time that it's not even funny.

[DerekG]

I see that Digikey is now also supporting KiCAD by developing over 1000 atomic library symbols & footprints:

https://www.digikey.com.au/en/resources/design-tools/kicad?utm_medium=email&utm_source=npa&utm_campaign=24224_NPA1804A&utm_content=adlearnmore_AU&utm_cid=7825987&WT.v_sub=7825987&WT.mc_id=em_NPA1804A.AU.Send&WT.z_email=24224_NPA1804A0BCTAU_adlearnmore&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWkdVMlpEZGpZelEyWVdOaCIsInQiOiJ1cE9sdnBkQkdCZVZGNjA1M203S2JGOWN1NDFCWXQyZ2pzRThcLzhvREVDNmxySkc0REpsVjN0YlZLRjNvWW1EMFlEWGlST0ltWUhnMmI1WXUwV05VT1FWWFwvT0Zocm1zenhQa254VkhlbHdDOFVcL1NLUEIxRzJqM3ZmeU1KdWlVMCJ9

[Sudo_apt-get_install_yum]

I’ve been using Eagle for a while now and I’m starting to get sick and tired of the software, there are numerous bugs and things that don’t really work as they should. Sadly I’m stuck with Eagle since my job only has an Eagle license.

But Eagle does get the job done and it’s cheap so I can’t really complain about it!
Recommend if you’re on a tight budget!

[ar__systems]

You can't complain, but you do

What bugs you are talking about?

[Insatman]

I used DipTrace.   You can download a lite version for free.   Eventually I upgraded to a non-commerical version that allows for 4 layer board and a lot more points for about $100.  I find the software easy and intuitive.   There is a lot of video tutorials and on-line support.   I can't speak for other packages really.   I have used KiCad and Eagle breifly but found DipTrace easier to use.   That's just my opinion however.  YMMV.   

[DerekG]

I have used KiCad and Eagle briefly but found DipTrace easier to use.

Me too. It runs a very logical menu system that is in many ways similar to the old Protel. Now that keyboard shortcuts have arrived, I simply replicate Altium's keystrokes so that the learning curve is even less.