Choosing hobbyist PCB software in 2023

[baylf2000]

I realise this may be a contentious topic for my first post, but I'm going to give it a go anyway.

I'm a hobbyist shopping for a new Schematic/PCB package. I bought and used Eagle for many years, but after a few years away I see they are no more. I'm a little sad as I really enjoyed Eagle and used it to make many PCBs, both professionally produced and home made.

So now I'm hunting for a new product to use. A lot of videos on YouTube I've seen are now pushing Altium, but their prices are so far away from anything a hobbyist would or should spend on a piece of software that they're a non-starter. I see that CircuitMaker and CircuitStudio have been abandoned, which rules them out. It's sad to see Altium are still taking online payments for CircuitStudio too.

I had a play with KiCad and was surprised at how modern and relatively simple to use it was. I also looked at DipTrace, which seems reasonably easy to use, but the interface looks like something from the 80's, which doesn't fill me with confidence. Their pricing flexibility is great though. They seem to have really picked the right spot for hobbyists. I also like the look of their features for high speed signals, as that's something I want to get into.

So are there any serious recommendations for products for hobbyists that have good community support, good parts libraries and reasonable pricing that won't be abandoned a year after purchase?

[Karel]

KiCad

[voltsandjolts]

KiCad

[Doctorandus_P]

KiCad 

So are there any serious recommendations for products for hobbyists that have good community support,

KiCad has a very active user forum. 20 to 30 questions a day and answers between a few minutes to hours. It seems rare that a topic can't get solved quickly on the KiCad user forum. https://forum.kicad.info/

good parts libraries

Check!
KiCad is also getting noticed by EDA library websites such as PCB Libraries, SnapEDA, Ultra Librarian and more.

and reasonable pricing

Check!
You decide what's reasonable

that won't be abandoned a year after purchase?

Check!
KiCad has been growing quite rapidly over the last few years. Lot's of extra functions, old annoyances get removed, libraries and library management gets improved.

It sure has it's own set of flaws and limitations. The biggest limitation at the moment is that the project may be growing a bit too fast. I'm guessing that in the near future when KiCad is "mostly feature complete" more emphasis shifts to stability instead of fixing old annoyances and introducing new features. Users helping a bit with the development by finding and reporting bugs is part of the nature of Open Source software. When KiCad V6 was released, (after 3 years of development) this worked quite well, and when a lot more users started using it and reporting bugs, nearly all of them were fixed within a month or two. And now with KiCad V7 (released last February) the going has unfortunately been a bit rougher. Overall it works quite well (and better than V6) but fixing the small annoying things seem to go a bit slower with V7. Bugs do get fixed, and quite fast (over 60 in each monthly point release) but due to the stormy development, they keep coming too. But don't be discouraged, It's mostly small stuff, and when important bugs are found they get a high priority and are usually fixed within hours to a few days.

And users are working on KiCad development too. KiCad has a "Plugin and content manager" that has now already over 50 plugins, including several written by (or at least for) PCB manufacturers to set up their rules and/or help with ordernig (Aisler, PCBWay, JLCpcb, NextPCB, Sierra, PCBGoGo,) And although I prefer to work with Gerbers myself, it's also getting more common that PCB manufacturers support uploading KiCad projects for manufacturing directly.

And other fun things, such as this link below, which indexes over 19.000  KiCad (related) projects on Github:
https://forum.kicad.info/t/kicad-project-explorer/44440

I've also seen the growing number of advertisements for altium, I guess they are waking up and slowly starting to see KiCad as a thread to their business.

It's sad to see Altium are still taking online payments for CircuitStudio too.

Yes, if there is anything I've learned about that company is that they like money very much.

About Diptrace, peaple who use it, seem to like it. I have never used it myself. I started using KiCad about 10 years ago, when it was quite rough, but I saw potential in it and that is now flourishing.

You also wrote you already gave KiCad a test drive and you liked it. Are there further concerns why you are doubting to adapt KiCad?

[nctnico]

Definitely Kicad for hobby use. If you gow out of that, skip Altium and go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad (which is also more affordable compared to Altium).

[woody]

Kicad, What Else?

[Karel]

... go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad.

I tried to find the system requirements for Orcad but I can't find it on https://www.orcad.com/
I suspect it's windows only now... 

[ahbushnell]

go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad (which is also more affordable compared to Altium).

Why do you say OrCAD is big boys vs Altium?

I use Altium professionally but if I was just doing hobby Kicad. 

[nctnico]

go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad (which is also more affordable compared to Altium).

Why do you say OrCAD is big boys vs Altium?

If you have used Orcad, you'd know... I had to use Altium for a project but told the customer to find someone else to do the layout. I had enough after fixing the schematic. I have a decent PC to run Altium but it is soooo slow and cumbersome to use compared to Orcad. If you look around you'll notice that complex SoC reference designs are all made using Orcad. Altium just doesn't has the performance for really complex boards. And Altium lacks impedance and crosstalk simulation as well.

... go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad.

I tried to find the system requirements for Orcad but I can't find it on https://www.orcad.com/
I suspect it's windows only now... 

Last time I checked the schematic program (Orcad capture) runs on Windows only. The PCB program (Allegro) runs on both Windows and Linux. The Schematic and PCB programs run just fine in a Windows virtual machine as well so no real showstoppers in case you (like me) run Linux as your primary OS. I had to get a separate PC to run Altium though.

[baylf2000]

Wow, what a beautifully elequent reply. Thank you! I suppose the only issue I can really see right now with KiCad is how it handles high-speed signals, which is something I'm specifically working on right now. Routing DDR3 ram for example. This used to be well outside the capabilities of a hobbyist only a few years ago but is now something we can do. I believe KiCad can assist with differential pairs, but anything more becomes difficult?

[Doctorandus_P]

KiCad has a function for routing differential pairs and for length matching. I experimented with this a few years ago, and the basic functionality is implemented, but it is (or at least was) a bit cumbersome to use. I do not use this function myself though and can't really judge it's quality.

On the KiCad website, https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/ You can find a link to the Olimexino 64 It is a design made in KiCad, it has DDR3 routing on an Allwinnner A64 and the complete project is downloadable from github, so you can easily use it to do some benchmark test or review how others use KiCad.

Also, if you type in "description:ddr3" in:
https://devbisme.github.io/kicad_project_explorer/

Then it does not find the Olimex designs, but it does find a project with a ZYNQ.
https://github.com/julianfl0w/zynqPCB

And this other project:
https://github.com/McflyWZX/BujiUAV2

(I only did the search, I did not look into those repositories, but both appear to be KiCad projects).

Also, when looking at old KiCad projects, then reading and/or converting them to the recent KiCad version is possible, but it may be cumbersome. Mostly because old projects tend to be damaged (partly due to the way KiCad V5 or earlier worked). From KiCad V6 and newer these problems are a thing of the past.

[nctnico]

KiCad has a function for routing differential pairs and for length matching. I experimented with this a few years ago, and the basic functionality is implemented, but it is (or at least was) a bit cumbersome to use. I do not use this function myself though and can't really judge it's quality.

On the KiCad website, https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/ You can find a link to the Olimexino 64 It is a design made in KiCad, it has DDR3 routing on an Allwinnner A64

That board has the memory running at only 667MHz (if that isn't the DDR rate so the actual clock is 'only' 333MHz). Routing memories at those rates is relatively easy. Keep in mind that DDR3 is over a decade old already. Try to do a modern day DDR4-3200 design with clocks running at 1600MHz and you'll find Kicad doesn't have the means to automate doing the length & phase matching required. In the end you can do everything manually (using a spreadsheet) but it will take a huge amount of time. Then again, a design like this is not very likely to be taken on at a hobby level.

[Doctorandus_P]

I believe KiCad can assist with differential pairs, but anything more becomes difficult?

KiCad has: PCB Editor / Place / Add Microwave Shape which has some standard RF shapes. Other things are also improving in KiCad. It is quite easy to add some graphics to a pad (the pad itself is then the attachment point), and this can be used from designing antenna's or spark gaps.

In the "Post V7 thread on the KiCad user forum, there is also an announcement for making any graphic a part of the netlist. Features listed in that thread are not yet in the stable KiCad version, but are expected to be in the next big release, which will be KiCad V8 and is expected in the first few months of 2024.
https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v7-new-features-and-development-news/40144/24

[CatalinaWOW]

KiCAD is really a good answer.  But the UI has just never clicked for me.  With enough time and effort I could get through this, but I have been using Autotrax DEX for a couple of decades now and have that UI burned in.  It is cheaper than Eagle was and does many things well.  It also has warts and is not done by a development team, but by a single person.  Makes the development team dynamics simple, but the guy will eventually lose interest or die, and as many on this forum have found he can be opinionated and hard to communicate with.

One thing that might be a plus for you is that it imports Eagle projects well, and has also imported all of the Eagle libraries.

[baylf2000]

That board has the memory running at only 667MHz (if that isn't the DDR rate so the actual clock is 'only' 333MHz). Routing memories at those rates is relatively easy. Keep in mind that DDR3 is over a decade old already. Try to do a modern day DDR4-3200 design with clocks running at 1600MHz and you'll find Kicad doesn't have the means to automate doing the length & phase matching required. In the end you can do everything manually (using a spreadsheet) but it will take a huge amount of time. Then again, a design like this is not very likely to be taken on at a hobby level.

Thanks for that info. I don't see myself doing anything more difficult that DDR3 for a long while yet, but I guess that's part of my fear of jumping into a something like KiCad. What happens if I do outgrow it? I means starting from scratch with another package.

I think that's why I liked the look of DipTrace. Their pricing structure means it's accessible to hobbyists but seems to have all the "professional" features like phase and length matching.

[Doctorandus_P]

Even if you outgrow KiCad and need to switch at some time in the future, I think it's not such a big deal. It may take some time to get productive in that other / new to you program, but in the end the difference is mostly in knowing which buttons to press.

All the things from knowing how electronics work and how to draw a schematic, to doing footprints placement (that is an important part) are generic knowledge that stays the same, regardless what program you use.

Also, with the speed KiCad is growing, those functions may be implemented if you only think you may need them in a few years time. But I don't know your needs, and I don't know Diptrace, so I can't compare.

[nctnico]

That board has the memory running at only 667MHz (if that isn't the DDR rate so the actual clock is 'only' 333MHz). Routing memories at those rates is relatively easy. Keep in mind that DDR3 is over a decade old already. Try to do a modern day DDR4-3200 design with clocks running at 1600MHz and you'll find Kicad doesn't have the means to automate doing the length & phase matching required. In the end you can do everything manually (using a spreadsheet) but it will take a huge amount of time. Then again, a design like this is not very likely to be taken on at a hobby level.

Thanks for that info. I don't see myself doing anything more difficult that DDR3 for a long while yet, but I guess that's part of my fear of jumping into a something like KiCad. What happens if I do outgrow it? I means starting from scratch with another package.

Yes, it means starting from scratch in another package. Count on having to do that several times in your career. And people saying that all PCB packages are alike so knowing one means knowing them all, are dead wrong. At the surface they may look the same but if you go a bit deeper there certainly are differences that require going through a learning curve. Especially when you are doing PCB design professionally for more complicated boards. Every package has a different approach and you'll need to learn & understand the ideas behind that approach.

But it could be Kicad grows with you. Not so long ago Kicad switched from having the footprints & symbols in external libraries (which is horrible) to including these into the design file. The same for having a component database. Even for hobby purposes I highly recommend adopting a workflow that uses a component database because it helps a lot to get the right footprints for the parts on your board. Nowadays there is a huge variety of packages and a mistake is easy to make.

[Solder_Junkie]

For those who started out with an etch resist pen and ferric chloride etching at home, Sprint 6 from Abacom is very straightforward to use. It is a program that I have used for many years and find it suits my hobby needs.

While most of the packages, including KiCad, take you through starting a project, drawing a circuit, picking parts, then (and only then) do you progress to the PCB layout. Sprint 6 allows you to take a circuit, perhaps from a magazine, place typical parts on the board, then join them up with tracks. Just as easy as using an etch resist pen. You can produce Gerber and drilling files for commercial board production too. It is very straightforward to create your own footprints from data sheets too, so you aren't limited to their library.

The main limitations with Sprint 6 are that it doesn't offer castellated pads (through hole pads that are easier to solder), nor does it offer isolated mounting holes, you have to create isolated areas yourself. Also it's not free, but for 49.90 Euros it's not particularly expensive either.

https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/electronic-software/sprint-layout-60.html

SJ

[Doctorandus_P]

The main limitations with Sprint 6 are that it doesn't offer castellated pads

I once considered that program. And the main limitation I found (before buying it luckily) is that it does not have schematic entry at all. Attempting to draw a PCB without a schematic and netlist, is sheer madness for anything more complicated then a NE555 blinkinglight. For me that was an instant game stopper.
[/quote]

While most of the packages, including KiCad, take you through starting a project, drawing a circuit, picking parts, then (and only then) do you progress to the PCB layout.

Yes, and I see it as an advantage.

Sprint 6 allows you to take a circuit, perhaps from a magazine, place typical parts on the board, then join them up with tracks. Just as easy as using an etch resist pen.

With this "circuit", do you mean a schematic, or such a B&W picture of the track layout?

In KiCad, you can add images to both the schematic and the PCB editor. You can make a picture of a PCB, and then use **PCB Editor / Place / Add Image** to put it on the PCB (KiCad can scale it, but only X&Y in the same amount). KiCad can also back import Gerber data into a KiCad PCB and this is also a neat reverse-engineering aid.

Working in KiCad without a schematic and the netlist is very cumbersome. If I have a reverse-engineering project, I usually build up both the schematic and the PCB simultaneously. You see a few connections on the PCB, create parts and wires in the schematic, put them on the PCB, and then draw the copper tracks. This is more work. But you end up with a schematic too, but it makes the process also much more reliable. When you are building the schematic, you can easily analyze it too, and a faulty connection is easily spotted. KiCad also has a "Wire It" plugin which can create the netlist on the PCB itself, but because I value the schematic itself, I have not used it, except for a very short test.

If you just draw tracks on a PCB, it is just far to easy to make mistakes. I can see the merit of the "Wire It" plugin in KiCad, but I would not want to (re) create a PCB without drawing the schematic too.

[asmi]

I once considered that program. And the main limitation I found (before buying it luckily) is that it does not have schematic entry at all. Attempting to draw a PCB without a schematic and netlist, is sheer madness for anything more complicated then a NE555 blinkinglight. For me that was an instant game stopper.

Yeah, I can't even imagine doing any of my projects without schematics. For anything but the very simplest breakout boards this is going to be a total disaster.

[Georgy.Moshkin]

IMO freeware version of Diptrace is a very nice pcb router, even with limitations of free version.

[16bitanalogue]

Has everyone jumped off the Eagle bandwagon?

[Karel]

A lot of Eagle users aren't happy.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-dying-on-june-7-2026/td-p/12017987

[Ranayna]

IMO freeware version of Diptrace is a very nice pcb router, even with limitations of free version.

I second this. For some reason DipTrace was very intuitive for me, even as a total noob i was able to do a simple PCB, and the only thing i needed to look up in the documentation was the gerber export.

[Uky]

As an OrCAD/Allegro user, the only free PCB tool I can ever think of that I could consider using apart from the Cadence tool is KiCAD. As a matter of fact, some of my customers have these two system side by side. One Cadence seat for complex designs and a seats of KiCAD for less complex tasks. KiCAD is getting better with every new release. Available for many platforms and I have seen several professional products designed with KiCAD over the past few years.

IMHO: Don't look any further.