CircuitMaker dead

[VEGETA]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...

I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project? many many people do this.

[DerekG]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...
I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project?

You have to pay to keep your project private. This is how Altium plan to make money from CircuitMaker.

[VEGETA]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...
I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project?

You have to pay to keep your project private. This is how Altium plan to make money from CircuitMaker.

Well, if it is like this, then it will be the most stupid thing EVER!! someone tell them it is not the 1920s anymore!

[baljemmett]

I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project? many many people do this.

I do have to wonder about all the moaning about this.  It's quite obvious that they see CircuitMaker as an open collaborative tool, and want to make that a major distinguishing feature - of course that's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, even if they are providing an option to keep designs private (for a fee) - but if it's something you're actively not interested in why not just not use it?  (Hell, I'm not even sure if I like the idea myself, but I want to see what they're actually offering us before I decide that!)

Instead, everybody who doesn't like the sound of it gnashes their teeth and loudly decries it as the stupidest idea ever, regardless of whether they're in the target market or not; is it any bloody wonder we haven't heard anything more about it for months?

[zapta]

Instead, everybody who doesn't like the sound of it gnashes their teeth and loudly decries it as the stupidest idea ever, regardless of whether they're in the target market or not; is it any bloody wonder we haven't heard anything more about it for months?

This product is heavily crippled just not to cannibalize their bread and butter. I feel bad for the engineers that work on it. Their hands are tied behind their back.

[Vasi]

Ha, it's kind of modern Shareware. I guess is kind of bait for small enterprises who happens to use Eagle or anything cheaper. It's a reorientation, like Samsung or Sony producing good phones with cheaper components, targeting the low market where everybody says that there are now the money. Everything else is marketing.

So, not really for the makers. Deal with it guys. Not even for others. Don't tell me that you will do with it any serious work just to see it copied by the Chinese guys! Well, probably everybody will want to try it at least once, to see what it is about, but no serious work, unless you want to buy it to work offline (as usual).

Eagle, as "stupid" is, is amazingly stable on Linux and Windows and it gets your job done on a modest PC or Notebook. Olimex still make their boards (Olinuxino and anything else) with 4.xx version. DipTrace is better in many aspects but it is not native under Linux yet. And it has to provide the same amazing stability. If I need to go commercial and don't have money for a EDA suite, obviously I'll use gEDA PCB or KiCAD. More than enough. 

For me it is obvious that Altium does not target people like me. It will never do. My pockets are empty. And KiCAD will give us (in time) for free some of the envied features of Altium and other "sacred monsters" on the market if we need complex and/or commercial work. If not KiCAD, then others will rise. Look at Blender 3D as the new Pixar, Scribus for Desktop Publishing, as a response to PageMaker and InDesign, Inkscape for CorelDraw (some are making PCBs with it and CNC Router work), LibreCAD for excellent 2D technical design (also intended for CAM work in the future), GIMP for Photoshop, LinuxCNC for Mach 3 CNC, Synfig Studio fro Anime Studio, MyPaint against Corel Canvas (yes, you can do amazing job with it), the amazing team Lazarus + FreePascal against Embarcadero Delphi and ... the brilliant RepRap project against Industry or DaveCAD against Altium (kind of a final joke, but not really as it is more popular). Altium does not exist in my world. Period.

[VEGETA]

Well, they said CM will be for the hacker/maker/... people, so it must work offline 100%. If you want to share your designs, I am very sure you can find over 9000 ways to do it!! just like what all do now.

So, this "feature" of Altium adds completely nothing to the community! it is just to make a standalone community for Altium!

If they want to achieve the goals they themselves declared, they should listen to people and forget these silly stuff. right?

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with... 

[c4757p]

Altium's features are great because they don't give them away for free. That's how they pay their devs. They have to limit their free offering somehow, otherwise it'll be the last offering they ever make...

[zapta]

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with...

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

[Mechatrommer]

A windows only open source design is very limited.

macOS open source is even further limited, no?. that leave to one major part... linux open source community... which is long very well known for there openess and freeness softwares... so... what you are asking is a complete altium/CM rewrite? not just rewrite, but learning the new language, ide/toolchain and the OS by those professionals? i highly believe investors will not approve. this whole free circuit maker is a nonsense to me so far until it materialize.

[VEGETA]

Altium's features are great because they don't give them away for free. That's how they pay their devs. They have to limit their free offering somehow, otherwise it'll be the last offering they ever make...

Well, I didn't say I want all of them for free... just the basics which all other packages offer like offline design. I do accept that they limit number of layers and pins to make a room for their paid software. Last time I checked CS it was around 1300$ or something... see the problem??

the problem is either you have a highly crippled free software, or a very expensive (for most people) good software. I still think Dave was correct, that they should give free, 100$, 300$, 1000$,...etc licenses or anything similar.

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

I think windows still the dominant OS even in maker community. as a start, it is ok to support only windows. However, just like others said, it may be difficult to do a 3 OS version of it.

[baljemmett]

Well, they said CM will be for the hacker/maker/... people, so it must work offline 100%. If you want to share your designs, I am very sure you can find over 9000 ways to do it!! just like what all do now.

… just like I'm very sure you can find an equally memetic number of ways to carry on doing exactly what you do now with the tools that are available now.  How dare Altium want to try something different?  They must be crazy.

[zapta]

I think windows still the dominant OS even in maker community. as a start, it is ok to support only windows. However, just like others said, it may be difficult to do a 3 OS version of it.

Business that cater to the makers community will have hard time adopting a Windows only tool because it limits their designs. Check the EDA tools that got traction in the makers community (eagle, diptrace, kicad), they support all three platforms.

As for having to rewrite the product, that's the vendor's problem, not the users'.

[Mechatrommer]

My pockets are empty. And KiCAD will give us (in time) for free some of the envied features of Altium and other "sacred monsters" on the market if we need complex and/or commercial work. If not KiCAD, then others will rise. Look at Blender 3D as the new Pixar, Scribus for Desktop Publishing, as a response to PageMaker and InDesign, Inkscape for CorelDraw (some are making PCBs with it and CNC Router work), LibreCAD for excellent 2D technical design (also intended for CAM work in the future), GIMP for Photoshop, LinuxCNC for Mach 3 CNC, Synfig Studio fro Anime Studio, MyPaint against Corel Canvas (yes, you can do amazing job with it), the amazing team Lazarus + FreePascal against Embarcadero Delphi and ... the brilliant RepRap project against Industry or DaveCAD against Altium (kind of a final joke, but not really as it is more popular). Altium does not exist in my world. Period.

these alternatives are good but they are not 100% substitute. just to prove it and curious about the claim... i downloaded gimp latest version and made quick evaluation... some of the 2007 writing are still valid... http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-gimp-replace-photoshop/ namely 16,32bit editing and CMYK/Lab/, color profile management implemented, but in a "loose" way that we have to manually dig usually in windows system directory profile files, this is common with all "jack of all OSes" ossw, they cannot find it automatically since they need to deal with 3 OSes. whats not mentioned that are lacking... nondestructive editing, hdr, actions, snapshot in history, smart object, device central, custom print dialog box with color managed printing, gamut warning thats what i can spot etc etc. and another problem with "jack of all OSes" that i tried, they failed to optimize rendering to full OS's capability, either Win32 Native API, OpenGL or DirectX. lucky Windows opted to include OpenGL in the OS if not, none and none, not even Kicad, RepetierHost and any other 3D/2D ossw rendering engine simple or complex will ever work charmingly in Windows. so dont get to cocky, if you keep the "My pockets are empty" mentality, your pocket will forever empty, i cant imagine how many time will be wasted on this (waiting something to complete render 1000x, clicking everything to reach a system file and the like) 24/7 in professional work, heck even the speed demon photoshop is not up to my expectation in some area... i bought Photoshop, and that is what paid all my electronics/hobby expenses to date through "parttime" job, not "fulltime"... if kicad can ever 100% substitute Altium, every single industries in the world are fool for sticking in there deek with altium. fwiw ymmv.

[Vasi]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace. That is a progress. Forget about Windows - that OS is not the only one in the planet. Look at Linux, let's say start from an old version, Slackware 3.0 and compare it with an actual version. The progress is tremenduos for both the OS and the applications available. Now, a guy with money only for a PC can start working and gain his existence, including in DTP zone. There is value added every year and can't be denied by anyone. And the process continues.

And, if you don't know yet, on this Planet it is a stupid financial crisis in development. This means that if in the past where people with empty pockets (especially students, and one of them designed Linux), now are even more. This is well known by companies who are forced to rethink their strategy (including Altium). Everyone thinks for a way to save money. If you can't work with what is available for free and you can afford an expensive tool, good for you. But you know what? Don't get cocky because you don't know what tomorrow have in the bag for you (this is true for all of us).

[zapta]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

[c4757p]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

[nctnico]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

[Tac Eht Xilef]

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported. And, AFAIK, the binaries don't work on the latest version of OSX.

Kicad release process is ridicules.
...
I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Or at least a properly documented build process - not a warning against using a broken build script followed by a link to a different page that that suggests using that same broken build script, or leaving you adrift to trawl through their bug/branch tracking system & mailing lists to piece together the right combination of branches & patches to get it to build properly...

(This & this look promising, but I haven't tested them since I'm stilll slowly piecing together a suitable scratch/build system on my new MBP...)

[zapta]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

This is what Google gives me, a release from 2013 from a site called mdx4.org.

http://www.mdx4.org/index.php?/archives/43-Kicad-for-OSX-2013-02-14-BZR-3954.html

Did you have better luck?

[zapta]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

Overhauls? Aren't they running ahead with new features?

[c4757p]

Vast sections of crusty old crap are being reimplemented as part of adding those.

[Mechatrommer]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

Overhauls? Aren't they running ahead with new features?

yes they are running new features "or" "extended" features, and yes it usually very likely they are doing overhauls when trying to blend extended features with the old existing. cern guy is brilliant parting pns (push and shove) code away, but it needs working together with existing one thats where the overhaul is needed, though that i have not checked, cern guy must already understand most part of kicad code very well. its understandable one programmer wil not produce "stable" version during "development". frequent install updates will lead to much of wasting time because between each stable compilations you'll need housekeeping job such as code verification, zipping and preparing documentations and placing them in various places and then make sure all of them are in tally. maybe the later part can be automated but "code/bug verification" is something big to do the right way.

[tszaboo]

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with...

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also, it is still not worth the effort to support two operating systems, to target 1% of the users. And personally, I think they should not touch the base code (and create bugs), just for the sake to make it work on linux. It would be the worst business decision to do.

[ehughes]

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also,  you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

I do use linux for certain tasks but am pragmatic enough to see that it is not a good fit for everything.

There is a reason Altium is an 80m+ company.   They need to figure out how to support their developers.   The maker community that uses Linux only is very small has very little money to give.      Kicad, etc.  is a much better choice for those users as they seem to have lots of time to burn.