CircuitMaker dead

[zapta]

... you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

The CM's competitors do.

[Mechatrommer]

The CM's competitors do.

there is no such thing as CM didnt you understand me? if anything... CM is (trying) to be a competitor...

[DIPLover]

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also,  you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

I do use linux for certain tasks but am pragmatic enough to see that it is not a good fit for everything.

There is a reason Altium is an 80m+ company.   They need to figure out how to support their developers.   The maker community that uses Linux only is very small has very little money to give.      Kicad, etc.  is a much better choice for those users as they seem to have lots of time to burn.

Serious EDA companies (Cadence, Mentor, Xilinx, Altera.....etc.) have supported Linux for years (sometimes decades) now... Seems it can be done and might be worth it...

The thing is you have to choose a stable distro, which usually means RHEL (or free CENTOS) and only support that.

People that WORK on their linux systems tend to not thinker with them as much.

Also, that linux has 1% (or whatever) marketshare amongst consumer droids is irrelevant. Adoption rates amongst technical and scientific users is much higher, though I wish I had solid statistics.

As to Linux users not paying for software... Cadence Allegro Pro PCB design is upward of 5K$ per seat... and most IC packages are well over 50K$. I never saw those running on Windows, though my sample is small.

[miguelvp]

Cadence Allegro is rapidly dropping support for all their unix platforms.

There was some press release of end of life for irix, solaris, whatever the IBMs power PC did run_ix, etc_ix

I'll try to look it up and update.

Edit:
http://www.cadence.com/support/computing/pages/default.aspx

[DIPLover]

Cadence Allegro is rapidly dropping support for all their unix platforms.

There was some press release of end of life for irix, solaris, whatever the IBMs power PC did run_ix, etc_ix

I'll try to look it up and update.

Edit:
http://www.cadence.com/support/computing/pages/default.aspx

Pruning long dead platforms is quite fine. IRIX has been dead since 2006... (And a zombie long before that)
If you look at the roadmap, you will see Red Hat 5,6,7 are fully supported, as well as SUSE 11 and 12. 5 supported linux distributions ain't bad at all. Also, they offer "contractual" support for latest AIX versions.

But all of this is mostly historical. Cadence and Mentor historically were run on Suns and other workstations, hence they're rooted in unix.  Protel/Altium is rooted in DOS hence the Windows-centric culture.

There's no problem in that (to each his own...) but it has nothing at all to do with "1% marketshare" and "linux kiddies don't wanna pay" bullshit.

[ludzinc]

Want some news re CM?  Let Altium know!

[miguelvp]

True, it's all x86 now but RedHat RHEL Linux and Novell SUSE SLES Linux are hardly linux or free and they cost more than their Windoze counterparts.

[DIPLover]

True, it's all x86 now but RedHat RHEL Linux and Novell SUSE SLES Linux are hardly linux or free and they cost more than their Windoze counterparts.

They are quite "free" in the free software sense, and CENTOS is "free" as in beer and 100% identical to RHEL except for logos.

But I guess if you're running Cadence, you don't mind paying for software updates anyway...

[miguelvp]

Again your are right about cost and companies that purchase Allegro surely don't mind paying those license fees.

But usually when people complain about no linux support they are referring to Ubuntu, Debian and alike. Specially if the software is free or with freemium offers.

And since the subject at hand is CircuitMaker, I bet the rants are not about not being able to run it in $800 a seat Linux versions.

[Bassman59]

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

They are integrating the CERN stuff, namely the differential routing and matched trace-length stuff, after which they are going to push out a new stable build. This is coming "soon." They really want to do this.

There are a couple of guys working on the OS X binaries now.

A lot of the release issues include making the installation process easy for newbies across all three platforms.

[Bassman59]

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported.

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

[zapta]

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported.

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

'latest' is not a 'release'.  We need a stable release number that is available for all three platforms with single package installs. Until then it's not a proper release. I waited 10 years until Eclipse caught up Intellij so I can wait until they Kicad will catch up with Eagle.

(this is a free product and they don't owe me a thing, I am just conveying my expectations as a potential user).

[Tac Eht Xilef]

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

No; as I said, I'm still getting a play area for that sort of crap set up on the new machine.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

Yes, I believe I said something about needing a "properly documented build process" that works, not one that needs trawling through the source, bugtracker, & mailing list to discover...

[ehughes]

There's no problem in that (to each his own...) but it has nothing at all to do with "1% marketshare" and "linux kiddies don't wanna pay" bullshit.

AS a former user of both Cadence and Mentor tools, just talk to anyone inside their company.    Virtually all the licenses are for Windows now.     The  crowd who demands Linux aren't running around with fist full of bank notes ready to through it towards Mentor or Cadence.

In a different segment,  I know of a couple companies who offered tools for Linux (Freescale being one.) who offered their tools for Linux.  They eventually dumped it after a few releases as there was almost no uptake compared to the full user base.   The ones that did had no interest in the paid version.

As far as Xilinx,  the Linux versions for Vivado, ISE and Chipscope have a bit more uptake but I have found that the drivers for the hardware are awful and some features are disabled.     Once again,   most of actual sales goes to the Windows users.

Just look at the ancedotes on this forum.    Everyone balks at the idea of Altium charging while simultaneously wanting Linux.   Sorry,  no one with a financial brain would spend any effort porting for a group who believes all software should be free.   It only makes sense if you start with toolkits from day one that make porting and testing easier.

Even if you do that you end with a GUI that looks and runs like shit on all platforms.   Just look at Eagle, et. al.

A tool really on needs to work on one platform well.  If a user is unwilling to pay (Especially if the software cost is significant) a little bit of money to get the OS,  then they are a shitty customer with other political motives.    Engineering is not about religion or politics.   Be programmatic and use tools to get things done.     Case in point....  I play and record music.    I find that Logic works best for my workflow.   Instead of dicking around looking for Windows or Linux alternatives,  I simply get the platform that supports what I want.  I didn't have a Mac.   Guess what?   To support my hobby, I busted ass for awhile to get the cash and bought the tool I wanted.

If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.  That time could be better used adding features and fixing bugs, not doing regression testing on all the different platform variants.   Just make the tools work in one environment well. 


 

[zapta]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

[Tac Eht Xilef]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

[Mechatrommer]

A tool really on needs to work on one platform well ... The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.  That time could be better used adding features and fixing bugs, not doing regression testing on all the different platform variants.   Just make the tools work in one environment well. 

i agree with you, but otoh i also highly believe making one sw works well, looks well in all platforms is possible, but unlikely free if its to happen. its just that from trying few of the jack of all OSes sw, i guess most of the developers came from linux environment, probably sifu and very very good at it so they dont have much time learning windows/macOS environment and how the file system works, how "common" GUI should looks and feels like etc etc, probably they spent too much time on sw functionality and tuning it up for there environment, once satisfied, they just find the toolchain that compile for windows and voila! they you have it the windows install. and then they need food too in there real life working environment, because well... they cant rely on there developed and nice little OSSW to feed them. otoh mastering and becoming the jack of all OSes for a mortal (highly skilled programmer) is quite difficult i guess as it need resources, time and patient. just a guess fwiw.

[zapta]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

"There is nothing wrong with pointing out that the argument A is invalid. "

From your link.

[ehughes]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

Poppy cock.   That is what someone who can't reason their way out of a bad position would say.  :-)

I hear the same nonsense on the Solidworks forums.    You have a couple people demanding a Linux version for little cost (or free!).    It is quite comical when there are a couple hundred thousand licenses being sold to paying customers on a platform that makes the company money.    It is simply dumb to think it would ever be worth the resource allocation to devote paid developers to serve a community that only wants your product for free.   If you want Linux and free use Kicad.

The reality in business is that you have to allocate resources in such a way to achieve your goals.   Unless you have an infinite bank account and supply of programmers, you have make choices that get you the 6-sigma of your customers happy.     This is why you see many Linux/open source efforts in the toilet.  It is simply not worth the trouble when the amount of money you can make is small in already small market.     The juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.   Especially when the juice coming out is sour.

If I am hungry and  need to catch fish,  I go to where the fish are.   I don't go to the spot with few fish because I feel that the scenery is better.  Not that there isn't anything wrong with sitting on on a nice lake while  I engage in fishing "theater" but...

All of the Latin verbage from a philosophy classroom is meaningless if you can't figure out how to fill your bucket of fish when you are hungry.

[zapta]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

Poppy cock.   That is what someone who can't reason their way out of a bad position would say.  :-)

I hear the same nonsense on the Solidworks forums.    You have a couple people demanding a Linux version for little cost (or free!).    It is quite comical when there are a couple hundred thousand licenses being sold to paying customers on a platform that makes the company money.    It is simply dumb to think it would ever be worth the resource allocation to devote paid developers to serve a community that only wants your product for free.   If you want Linux and free use Kicad.

The reality in business is that you have to allocate resources in such a way to achieve your goals.   Unless you have an infinite bank account and supply of programmers, you have make choices that get you the 6-sigma of your customers happy.     This is why you see many Linux/open source efforts in the toilet.  It is simply not worth the trouble when the amount of money you can make is small in already small market.     The juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.   Especially when the juice coming out is sour.

If I am hungry and  need to catch fish,  I go to where the fish are.   I don't go to the spot with few fish because I feel that the scenery is better.  Not that there isn't anything wrong with sitting on on a nice lake while  I engage in fishing "theater" but...

All of the Latin verbage from a philosophy classroom is meaningless if you can't figure out how to fill your bucket of fish when you are hungry.

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

[miguelvp]

Let them finish one version first and see where it goes, I rather they concentrate in one OS than three and wait at least one year for CM to come out.

[Vasi]

The fact that Eagle works identical on all OSes says that it uses the right crossplatform framework. The KiCAD developer made the mistake to chose wxWdgets framework that it didn't worked well on Mac OS X. But I guess that the developer was accustomed some how more with the Windows programming paradigm and wxWidgets follows that very close. I have to admin that is the best choice of any fanatic Windows programmer who wants to do a crossplatform experiment.

Today, the best crossplatform framework that works excellent on all three main OSes, is named Qt and has native elements for all host OSes. I suspect Eagle uses that. It also works great on embedded and mobile systems. Unfortunately, regarding Circuit Maker, the only good choice in using the framework with Objective Pascal is to use Lazarus + Freepascal because I guess Delphi will never offer Linux support (I won't go into the reasons). So the Linux story ends here.  But this does not means that once developed in Delphi, Circuit Maker won't be compiled for both Windows and Mac OS X operating systems.

Embarcadero® Delphi® XE7 is the fastest way to develop highly connected applications for Windows, OS X, Android, iOS, Gadgets, and Wearables. Modernize existing Windows applications and create highly connected apps with mobile, gadgets, and wearables. Deliver high performance, compiled native applications that easily connect with enterprise data, cloud services, devices, sensors, and gadgets.

The whole cross platform thing is today beyond anything else in the past. It is a must for any developer and it works flawless. No one has the time and money to have three separate development teams making applications for Windows, Linux, Mac OS X. Today you have to work on a single package that has to work the same on any operating system (Once you used a cross platform framework, is the compilers job to compile the executable for any platform). Do it otherwise and you are screwed. Delphi does this with FMX components, Lazarus+Freepascal with Qt, Qt is also used with gcc C/C++ compiler, and soon Microsoft will join the party with Visual Studio (which can use already Qt) and the horrible .NET platform (this means that DEX will be cross platform in the future) . So please, don't laugh about the crossplatform thing as it has to be included in the CV of any programmer from now on.

[tszaboo]

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

Maybe they can offer a free copy of Windows for Dummies with CM.

[GK]

[zapta]

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

Maybe they can offer a free copy of Windows for Dummies with CM.

Or better off, a free copy of Diptrace, so people can stay with their OS of choice.