CircuitMaker dead

[Tac Eht Xilef]

"There is nothing wrong with pointing out that the argument A is invalid. "

From your link.

Next sentence: "However, claiming that the entirety of proposition P (which could otherwise be an objective scientific truth or is supported by better arguments) is false, just because it could be, or is being, supported by fallacious argument A, is the Fallacy fallacy."

Or, as it also says earlier:

This is where one needs to make a clear distinction between "sound", "valid" (including the distinction between scientific validity and logical validity) and "true", instead of taking all of them as synonymous.

Or better off, a free copy of Diptrace, so people can stay with their OS of choice.

The Linux & OSX versions on Diptrace are Wine-based, so you essentially get all the fun & problems of using a Windows program in a Windows (not an) emulator.

[zapta]

Next sentence: "However, claiming that the entirety of proposition P (which could otherwise be an objective scientific truth or is supported by better arguments) is false, just because it could be, or is being, supported by fallacious argument A, is the Fallacy fallacy."

I don't think I said that the appeal to the extreme is a proof that you are wrong. You are debating with yourself here.

The Linux & OSX versions on Diptrace are Wine-based, so you essentially get all the fun & problems of using a Windows program in a Windows (not an) emulator.

No, essentially I can use the program on my computer of choice with a single package install. The usage of Wine is just an app implementation detail.

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

[tszaboo]

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

So, by the Pareto principle, you just proved, that it is not worth it, to make a MAC and Linux release. Altium is strong and healthy, they make 20% of the effort to support 80% of their potential customers. Saleae supports everyone, five times the effort, they are on the edge of a bankruptcy. Thank you for proving our point.

[zapta]

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

So, by the Pareto principle, you just proved, that it is not worth it, to make a MAC and Linux release. Altium is strong and healthy, they make 20% of the effort to support 80% of their potential customers. Saleae supports everyone, five times the effort, they are on the edge of a bankruptcy. Thank you for proving our point.

That's bizarre logic. Cadence supports Linux and is more profitable than Altium.

Most of the successful tools and projects in the makers space support all three platforms. Same goes for tools adopted by major makers houses such as Adafruit and Sparkfun. It's for a reason.

[ehughes]

Cadence supports Linux and is more profitable than Altium.

Cadence all sells high IC design tools,   functional simulation tools, etc. That can easily run 250k+.     They are not interested in the Maker community or supporting linux because it is a "swell" thing to do.    They have an established revenue stream from established high end businesses.      Those people don't choose linux because of religion,   they have a job to get done and use the right tool for the job.      Keep in mind that the majority of the business at Cadence is in Windows.  Unix is dying platform for what they do.   When they have customers who swing millions of dollars on software,  it makes sense to support unix in those cases.

Same goes for tools adopted by major makers houses such as Adafruit and Sparkfun. It's for a reason.

The *only* reason Sparkfun and adafruit adopted Eagle was because it was free and had an existing user base.  Period.     It had nothing to do with the technical merits of the software.    Eagle popular *before* it had a linux version in V4 and a Mac Version in V5.      The adoption was purely because it was free.   The ability to run on other operating systems was the developer's wet dream at the used QT.    It is not the majority of their business.

Now,  if a tool was written primarily for unix or mac,  I would make the same statement.   You don't port simply because it is a cool thing to do.   You have to have a real business case.   

I certainly understand there are paying linux users in the high end business community.   We are NOT talking about makers wanting to pay 250k for an IC design tool. IF you think *makers/hackers*  who only use linux (because it is free) is going to be a solid revenue stream,  you are simply dumb.   You would never invest (in the case of Altium) significant resources porting an application tied to the Windows platform (i.e. direct X) just to get some table scraps.    You would lose less money sending a copy of VMware and a windows license.

No one with their head screwed on straight chooses a tool because it runs on certain OS.      That is what happens when you let geeks make business decisions.

[zapta]

No one with their head screwed on straight chooses a tool because it runs on certain OS.      That is what happens when you let geeks make business decisions.

For makers, nothing is so special about CM that they will let it dictate what OS to use. It's just another program out of many they use. It doesn't deserve special efforts.

The fact of the matter is that most tools that are popular in the makers market run on all three OSs.

If Altium think that they can capture the makers market with a windows only program, good for them. It's their money.

[Vasi]

For makers, nothing is so special about CM that they will let it dictate what OS to use. It's just another program out of many they use. It doesn't deserve special efforts.

The fact of the matter is that most tools that are popular in the makers market run on all three OSs.

If Altium think that they can capture the makers market with a windows only program, good for them. It's their money.

Never used Altium. Don't even watched a presentation movie about it. But, if CM meets the requirements (free to use for non-commercial and saving to the HDD), then I would like to use it especially for his 3D capabilities. Strictly for presentation purposes; it helps you to illustrate your tech blog with nice looking boards (considering only this activity and it still can be beneficial to Altium, as my pages can drive more people to using Altium tool). Well, if Altium decided to compete on this niche, then it has to be content even with this kind of gaining. Right?

Don't forget that they want to smash Eagle. So let's see  what they are willing to do for it. Realize this? We don't have to beg for something. Altium is the one who need to come with a nice offer to be taken into consideration. Period.

[VEGETA]

Don't forget that they want to smash Eagle. So let's see  what they are willing to do for it. Realize this? We don't have to beg for something. Altium is the one who need to come with a nice offer to be taken into consideration. Period.

You sir talk good logic, really. However, if they want this, they should listen to the community. The community needs are very simple: a PCB tool that works for most of their needs, can design good stuff, maintained nicely, can go commercial with small amount of money, and works offline.

I guess all knows these stuff, which Dave mentioned most of them before they announce their tool. However, we didn't expect them to make 3 separate tools!!!

The best approach is to have ONE package that free with boundaries, then you buy licenses according to your needs until you reach the full Altium designer. Say Free + 3 paid licenses. They didn't do that, they just created 2 separate programs!

The essence is that the software is the same, you master the free one, you master (or do excellent) with the paid one... not just re-learn everything.


Well, looks like we will argue a lot about it, and in the end we will see the result. It may be the hardest thing to do, but waiting is all we can now xD

 

[Mechatrommer]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

[ehughes]

The best approach is to have ONE package that free with boundaries, then you buy licenses according to your needs until you reach the full Altium designer. Say Free + 3 paid licenses. They didn't do that, they just created 2 separate programs!

I would tend to agree but I also see the rationale behind the decision.    AD can be complicated for seasoned engineers.     When you first install and look at the program, it is not trivial to get started.   There are multiple options for library management, lifecycle management, etc.   Things that organizations have to worry about.   Companies pay good $$$$ for proper training.

I honestly could see many people giving up on it with the perception that it is too hard.   I don't think the decision to simplify the UI in the CM or CS versions was taken lightly.    User uptake is critical and you want things to look at simple as possible.

I have use AD for many years and it does have a learning curve.    I have seen many seasoned engineers need a good amount of patience to learn.   

CM and CS are an effort to simplify the UI for the case that most people would be using it to just make boards.         Keep in mind that they did not rewrite the tool from scratch.   99% of the code is the same.   The main shell UI is different but it instantiates the same functionality (i.e. The schematic editor, PCB editor) and hide what is not needed.

We will have to wait and see how things turn out inthe end but even if you don't like the CM model,  I would think a reasonable person woudl agree that more people in this space is good thing.   It forces the other tools to keep up.

If anything ,  it will force KiCAD,  Eagle and Dip Trace to get real 3d support.     It is more than showing a model in another window.     When you can cross probe a trace through a layer stack in real time,  you see the value of true 3d support very quickly!       While there is still more work to do in the AD interface,  I have used every other major vendors PCB 3d toolset.    Nothing else comes close.

[zapta]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

[Mechatrommer]

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

if only 2 option in the world, kicad and eagle. please advice which one has more features and more efficient, hence thats the "most", hence thats what i need.

[VEGETA]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free", now for "cheap and free" you will never ever gonna get "most efficient and most featured" simply because companies like Altium who worked for +20 years or something on their product, they wanna gain money they deserve. It's not like anyone will produce such quality product for free... right?

My needs are not the standard of the world. However, I did read what most people need and it is not that much hard! CM must at least have these stuff... otherwise it will never ever gonna meet the primary goals they themselves announced! This is what we have been talking about.

believe me, so many people will literally hate the cloud-only thing. those Eagle guys will never ever leave their package (which is not better than CM as all expect) to use CM... and the rest (KiCAD, Diptrace.....etc) are the same...

Now, who will use it? why? is it gonna be a successful product? will it dominate the Hacker/Maker/Hobbyist marked that was the sole reason it was made?

thanks for all who responded. xD 

[Mechatrommer]

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free",

AD is not "cheap" so its not in the "set", in case you forget exercise in school, what i meant is the boolean logic {"most efficient" AND "most featured" AND {"cheap" OR "free"}} to make it easier try do it from behind, first find the set of "cheap or free" sw and work your way to the earlier condition. in practice its not so easy though the world is not black and white i suspect Eagle is (was?) the maker's de-facto standard because it fits the boolean logic above.

[Bassman59]

'latest' is not a 'release'.  We need a stable release number that is available for all three platforms with single package installs. Until then it's not a proper release. I waited 10 years until Eclipse caught up Intellij so I can wait until they Kicad will catch up with Eagle.

(this is a free product and they don't owe me a thing, I am just conveying my expectations as a potential user).

For what it's worth: nightly builds for OS X are available here: http://downloads.kicad-pcb.org/osx/

[zapta]

Thanks, I week give it a try.

[VEGETA]

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free",

AD is not "cheap" so its not in the "set", in case you forget exercise in school, what i meant is the boolean logic {"most efficient" AND "most featured" AND {"cheap" OR "free"}} to make it easier try do it from behind, first find the set of "cheap or free" sw and work your way to the earlier condition. in practice its not so easy though the world is not black and white i suspect Eagle is (was?) the maker's de-facto standard because it fits the boolean logic above.

the whole idea behind my post was to clear for you that there is no cheap package with all of your requirements. There will be limitations no matter what.

As far as I know, Eagle is the de-facto standard for makers today. It has pretty much all their needs, and KiCAD is there for those who likes it. CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

[Mechatrommer]

CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

ditto! if its "better", it will fit the "community" (or my) needs but sadly CM is a nonsense for now imho.

[VEGETA]

CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

ditto! if its "better", it will fit the "community" (or my) needs but sadly CM is a nonsense for now imho.

FINALLY you understood my post.

That is what I wanted to say... for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

I am not worried about other features as I am sure CM will be better than the others... After all, it is Altium right?

thanks for the great discussion. looking forward to CM xD

[miguelvp]

Same here I can't wait to test CM once it comes out so I can see if it will work or not for me.

[nixfu]

So, has Dave/EEVBLOG had any contact with his friends at Altium lately?  It might be time to actually confirm if CM is dead or not.  It sure seems like it.

[EEVblog]

So, has Dave/EEVBLOG had any contact with his friends at Altium lately?  It might be time to actually confirm if CM is dead or not.  It sure seems like it.

Haven't heard a thing.

[Mechatrommer]

for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

now thats not your opinion, its the "community" (or my) opinion. i think everybody agreed on this, added with Altium track record and company status is what makes this "CM for maker/hobbiest" whole thing nonsense, but well, we'll see.

[ehughes]

Someone asked about CM being dead on the Altium Forums.   (See Attached)

Here is some "public" information.   All that can be said is it is still in closed Beta and they are working through the feedback.

[janekm]

for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

now thats not your opinion, its the "community" (or my) opinion. i think everybody agreed on this, added with Altium track record and company status is what makes this "CM for maker/hobbiest" whole thing nonsense, but well, we'll see.

Well it's most certainly not my opinion! A cloud-only option is just fine for what I would like to use it for (open hardware projects). A very sensible trade-off for allowing that type of community use while protecting Altium's business interests in the more expensive options. I sure hope Altium haven't been too put off by the negative views on this forum...