CircuitMaker dead

[Bloch]

Sorry I did mean.


CircuitMaker momentum is fast dying.


In 2 days it is 1 month ago I did sign up for the >> CircuitMaker Community << there I was promised "by signing up you’ll receive notifications from time to time about the latest developments"


Well is the only email that i have received from them !


But if i go to the http://blog.circuitmaker.com the latest post is 14 days old. Ok then I did want to read that last post http://blog.circuitmaker.com/#Blogs/circuitmaker-community-09-30-14It did have this catcy line "Why are we putting so much effort into a solid community system for CircuitMaker?"
solid


Altium are taking ALL this  data cloud thing so serious that I am not even a little bit worried.


Or am I   

[miguelvp]

I remember when purchasing a CPU could take a couple of months from the local electronic store. We all know they are in close beta with open beta coming later before they go alpha testing and finally releasing it. Meaning it's probably at least 3 months from now with due diligence.

[Tac Eht Xilef]

I remember when purchasing a CPU could take a couple of months from the local electronic store. We all know they are in close beta with open beta coming later before they go alpha testing and finally releasing it. Meaning it's probably at least 3 months from now with due diligence.

I hope they aren't going to do things that way around.

Then again, we are talking about Altium...

[Bloch]

No they are doing the "safe" way. Let me say i am not surprised that Dave did use 5 ? minutes on CircuitMaker.
Nothing new     other than he did get some cheap pcb + a t-shirt.

[ehughes]

To rush it would be  dumb.    The idea of "momentum" doesn't hold here.    It is a free tool.  No one is going to starve, die or lose their limbs if it doesn't come out soon.
The sane thing is to release it when it is ready.   Altium has plenty of cash flow already. 

 The bitching will be 100 times worse if it is released still-born.

[miguelvp]

They only have one chance to make a good impression. It's like creating a good web front end, you only have a chance to capture a visitor, or they will never comeback again if they had a bad experience.

[Bud]

  It is a free tool. 

I did not see any specification of any tool there, just "Join us now and may be we will tell you what we have" type of thing. Their web site is amazingly dumb and useless. No wonder people do not come, it is like you go to a hardware store to buy a screwdriver and they stop you at the door and require your passport data before letting you in.

[Bud]

Let me say i am not surprised that Dave did use 5 ? minutes on CircuitMaker.

Just watch Dave's face when he talked, that tells you all.
 

[EEVblog]

They only have one chance to make a good impression. It's like creating a good web front end, you only have a chance to capture a visitor, or they will never comeback again if they had a bad experience.

I disagree.
I think people would happily come back in a years time if Altium did an about-face and suddenly made it a local program like AD.
It makes them look stupid, but it wouldn't stop people taking it up.

[EEVblog]

No they are doing the "safe" way. Let me say i am not surprised that Dave did use 5 ? minutes on CircuitMaker.
Nothing new     other than he did get some cheap pcb + a t-shirt.

What was I supposed to say?
Every item that gets sent into Mailbag gets opened and talked about.
I didn't have any new info to share, so I just ranted for a bit.

[Bloch]

I am just reporting  that i see. It you channel and you do just that you like to do with it.

It is may be the way the new media works. They have resources and did know a YouTuber. His address and did know that it important to mark it with Mailbag.  Did it work yes it did they got it mention in the YouTube/media again so it going a bit longer...before we may forget about them again.

[EEVblog]

It is may be the way the new media works. They have resources and did know a YouTuber. His address and did know that it important to mark it with Mailbag.  Did it work yes it did they did get fire going a bit longer...

That's how it work, yes. The mailbag segment is a way for anyone, including commercial companies, to send in product or stuff and get some free publicity on the blog, or just for kicks.
It's a win-win for most. I get content, I enjoy it, people seem to like mailbag and seeing different stuff, and companies or people get to plug their stuff in return.

[Bloch]

Just an update. They did get the blog up again. If there was others that did want to read it.
No menting on that did go wrong / or if they updated the server to a bigger one ?

[DanielS]

They only have one chance to make a good impression. It's like creating a good web front end, you only have a chance to capture a visitor, or they will never comeback again if they had a bad experience.

I disagree.
I think people would happily come back in a years time if Altium did an about-face and suddenly made it a local program like AD.
It makes them look stupid, but it wouldn't stop people taking it up.

If someone decides to invest their time, effort and possibly money in some other EDA suite because Altium failed to deliver what was expected of them on the first round, it may take quite a bit more effort for Altium to win them back. You rarely get a second chance at making a good first impression.

[Vasi]

I have nothing against if you (Altium) want to milk the hobby zone. If you have an idea of what "hobby zone" means. But you don't.

I many cases, a computer designated for hobby use, means a computer in a workshop, other than the family's computer. Is not even the most recent high end piece of hardware and many times, it is outside wifi coverage. It has XP/Win7 mostly but it happens also to have Linux and pretty rare, OS X.

The projects and libraries are archived on CD/DVDs and rarely a project get posted online - is the author's choice and nobody can force him to do anything else. A PCB designer is a tool which it must work mainly offline and save offline. A tool which must have low-to-medium hardware requirements. And of course, it has to be outstanding compared to Eagle, Kicad, gEDA, DipTrance and any other actor on the market.

Do this and become famous. Became the most used tool in the market and only then think something to make money. Yes, you will have to wait some years but this is the ONLY receipt to success in the hobby zone.

You can't or don't intend to be so "stupid"? You are too noble or you are coming from a different "social class"? Then, don't waste your money and time. Go back to your circles. Because a hobbyist already have the required tools for his work and it won't beg others for something else.

[Bloch]

About 4 months and no news   


Are there any beta testers there want to say anything ?

[miguelvp]

They are most likely under NDA, because some of the features they might be testing might not even make it if they have implementation issues that would take too many development resources and they might get cut.

It's normal for them to require the closed beta testers to be completely silent about it. And any versions given to the press for review would be under embargo until some established date, but since they are not even in open beta I would doubt that they would have anything ready for the press to review, that would come later.

The way things usually work is. They get green lit by their company and an announcement is made because the company has committed to bring the product forward, then development resources are put towards that goal. Then some hype for close beta and silence usually is the norm, some companies might put teasers for features that will definitely make it.
Then open beta where there will be more information leaks and some details, during that time is when marketing will start to ramp up the hype getting ready for the release.

Four months is nothing, usually products go quiet after being announced for half a year or even a full year until it's in a state that marketing can do their thing.

Someone mentioned open beta by January, and we are just on the first week, but the announcement wasn't an official one, so they have not really committed themselves to deliver anything yet.

[DerekG]

Someone mentioned open beta by January

Wasn't that January 2017?

I believe Altium has no intention of making a real go of CircuitMaker. Management is only rolling it out to give the shareholders some hope that their investment in the company was worthwhile.

[tszaboo]

Someone mentioned open beta by January

Wasn't that January 2017?

I believe Altium has no intention of making a real go of CircuitMaker. Management is only rolling it out to give the shareholders some hope that their investment in the company was worthwhile.

I've heard end of January from altium guys themselves.

[EEVblog]

Hopefully they are having a rethink on the cloud only model. I think this is a one shot deal. If they get it badly wrong it will be even harder to regain the traction necessary to recover lost ground.

Now that they are in bed with Element 14 (who own Eagle) to distribute their mid range CircuitStudio software, my fear is that they will drop the free CircuitMaker. I hope not, but as someone said above, this is Altium 

[DerekG]

Now that they are in bed with Element 14 (who own Eagle) to distribute their mid range CircuitStudio software, my fear is that they will drop the free CircuitMaker.

Dave, I think you are right.

With all the negative forum comments, Altium eventually woke up & worked out that they could not make any substantial money out of CircuitMaker.

A colleague of mine in the USA says that Element 14 actually approached Altium saying "let's work together".

For those who have not been watching the Circuit Studio thread, you can find it here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/

Based on Element 14's management reply to a fellow forum member, Circuit Studio will likely sell for around US$2999.

Altium already have everyone's email address that signed up for CircuitMaker. What's the bet that all these people will be receiving an email shortly, pushing Circuit Studio from Element 14?

So the next question will be, what Altium Designer features will be left out of Circuit Studio?

[EEVblog]

With all the negative forum comments, Altium eventually woke up & worked out that they could not make any substantial money out of CircuitMaker.
A colleague of mine in the USA says that Element 14 actually approached Altium saying "let's work together".

That makes some sense, because in my communication with Altium over CircuitMaker there wasn't the slightest hint of CircuitStudio, that came out of the blue.

Based on Element 14's management reply to a fellow forum member, Circuit Studio will likely sell for around US$2999.

In that case *plonk*
No way I'd buy two seats at that price (me + upcoming assistant)
What's the bet they'd milk maintenance on top of that as well?

[Zeta]

A colleague of mine in the USA says that Element 14 actually approached Altium saying "let's work together".

"An anonymous friend of a friend of a friend of mine said ...."

Am I the only one who hates this kind of comment? seems like everyone else give certain credibility to this kind of comments when it has absolutely no support. Who is your friend? what is his association with E14 how does he know that?

[DerekG]

A colleague of mine in the USA says that Element 14 actually approached Altium saying "let's work together".

Who is your friend? what is his association with E14 how does he know that?

I can say that I always trust his input as he is knows more about the world wide industry of EDA/PCB design software than most companies themselves.

He was the one who first gave up this information which proved to be 100% right on the knocker:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg522538/#msg522538

I'm sure that if he wished to be identified, he would be a forum member himself.

[miguelvp]

It seems it's not dead, but I guess open beta is not going to be January
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/msg602099/#msg602099

Tried installing Circuit Studio trial at work today, but Corporate Rules stopped the fun.

So I enquired about an Circuit Studio, and Circuit Maker, and got this response:

Hi Simon,

I have been told very soon it will be released that is Circuit Studio is scheduled for release early Feb and then following that circuit maker will come out just after that but i just can't commit on an exact date until the announcement will go out just in case it moves.

Thanks for your comments it will be exciting times for Altium and obviously more options for our clients.

Best regards,



Viktor Haddo

Technical Sales Manager,
APAC

____________________
Altium APAC

3 Minna Close
Belrose NSW 2085 Australia

I'll try installing Circuit Studio at home tonight, and I wait for Circuit Maker with baited breath.

But to install Circuit studio you need the credentials that probably only registered users will get at some point.

[VEGETA]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...

I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project? many many people do this.

[DerekG]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...
I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project?

You have to pay to keep your project private. This is how Altium plan to make money from CircuitMaker.

[VEGETA]

It is 16th of Feb and still no news...
I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project?

You have to pay to keep your project private. This is how Altium plan to make money from CircuitMaker.

Well, if it is like this, then it will be the most stupid thing EVER!! someone tell them it is not the 1920s anymore!

[baljemmett]

I just hope that they eliminate this silly cloud stuff. What if I don't want to share my project? many many people do this.

I do have to wonder about all the moaning about this.  It's quite obvious that they see CircuitMaker as an open collaborative tool, and want to make that a major distinguishing feature - of course that's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, even if they are providing an option to keep designs private (for a fee) - but if it's something you're actively not interested in why not just not use it?  (Hell, I'm not even sure if I like the idea myself, but I want to see what they're actually offering us before I decide that!)

Instead, everybody who doesn't like the sound of it gnashes their teeth and loudly decries it as the stupidest idea ever, regardless of whether they're in the target market or not; is it any bloody wonder we haven't heard anything more about it for months?

[zapta]

Instead, everybody who doesn't like the sound of it gnashes their teeth and loudly decries it as the stupidest idea ever, regardless of whether they're in the target market or not; is it any bloody wonder we haven't heard anything more about it for months?

This product is heavily crippled just not to cannibalize their bread and butter. I feel bad for the engineers that work on it. Their hands are tied behind their back.

[Vasi]

Ha, it's kind of modern Shareware. I guess is kind of bait for small enterprises who happens to use Eagle or anything cheaper. It's a reorientation, like Samsung or Sony producing good phones with cheaper components, targeting the low market where everybody says that there are now the money. Everything else is marketing.

So, not really for the makers. Deal with it guys. Not even for others. Don't tell me that you will do with it any serious work just to see it copied by the Chinese guys! Well, probably everybody will want to try it at least once, to see what it is about, but no serious work, unless you want to buy it to work offline (as usual).

Eagle, as "stupid" is, is amazingly stable on Linux and Windows and it gets your job done on a modest PC or Notebook. Olimex still make their boards (Olinuxino and anything else) with 4.xx version. DipTrace is better in many aspects but it is not native under Linux yet. And it has to provide the same amazing stability. If I need to go commercial and don't have money for a EDA suite, obviously I'll use gEDA PCB or KiCAD. More than enough. 

For me it is obvious that Altium does not target people like me. It will never do. My pockets are empty. And KiCAD will give us (in time) for free some of the envied features of Altium and other "sacred monsters" on the market if we need complex and/or commercial work. If not KiCAD, then others will rise. Look at Blender 3D as the new Pixar, Scribus for Desktop Publishing, as a response to PageMaker and InDesign, Inkscape for CorelDraw (some are making PCBs with it and CNC Router work), LibreCAD for excellent 2D technical design (also intended for CAM work in the future), GIMP for Photoshop, LinuxCNC for Mach 3 CNC, Synfig Studio fro Anime Studio, MyPaint against Corel Canvas (yes, you can do amazing job with it), the amazing team Lazarus + FreePascal against Embarcadero Delphi and ... the brilliant RepRap project against Industry or DaveCAD against Altium (kind of a final joke, but not really as it is more popular). Altium does not exist in my world. Period.

[VEGETA]

Well, they said CM will be for the hacker/maker/... people, so it must work offline 100%. If you want to share your designs, I am very sure you can find over 9000 ways to do it!! just like what all do now.

So, this "feature" of Altium adds completely nothing to the community! it is just to make a standalone community for Altium!

If they want to achieve the goals they themselves declared, they should listen to people and forget these silly stuff. right?

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with... 

[c4757p]

Altium's features are great because they don't give them away for free. That's how they pay their devs. They have to limit their free offering somehow, otherwise it'll be the last offering they ever make...

[zapta]

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with...

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

[Mechatrommer]

A windows only open source design is very limited.

macOS open source is even further limited, no?. that leave to one major part... linux open source community... which is long very well known for there openess and freeness softwares... so... what you are asking is a complete altium/CM rewrite? not just rewrite, but learning the new language, ide/toolchain and the OS by those professionals? i highly believe investors will not approve. this whole free circuit maker is a nonsense to me so far until it materialize.

[VEGETA]

Altium's features are great because they don't give them away for free. That's how they pay their devs. They have to limit their free offering somehow, otherwise it'll be the last offering they ever make...

Well, I didn't say I want all of them for free... just the basics which all other packages offer like offline design. I do accept that they limit number of layers and pins to make a room for their paid software. Last time I checked CS it was around 1300$ or something... see the problem??

the problem is either you have a highly crippled free software, or a very expensive (for most people) good software. I still think Dave was correct, that they should give free, 100$, 300$, 1000$,...etc licenses or anything similar.

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

I think windows still the dominant OS even in maker community. as a start, it is ok to support only windows. However, just like others said, it may be difficult to do a 3 OS version of it.

[baljemmett]

Well, they said CM will be for the hacker/maker/... people, so it must work offline 100%. If you want to share your designs, I am very sure you can find over 9000 ways to do it!! just like what all do now.

… just like I'm very sure you can find an equally memetic number of ways to carry on doing exactly what you do now with the tools that are available now.  How dare Altium want to try something different?  They must be crazy.

[zapta]

I think windows still the dominant OS even in maker community. as a start, it is ok to support only windows. However, just like others said, it may be difficult to do a 3 OS version of it.

Business that cater to the makers community will have hard time adopting a Windows only tool because it limits their designs. Check the EDA tools that got traction in the makers community (eagle, diptrace, kicad), they support all three platforms.

As for having to rewrite the product, that's the vendor's problem, not the users'.

[Mechatrommer]

My pockets are empty. And KiCAD will give us (in time) for free some of the envied features of Altium and other "sacred monsters" on the market if we need complex and/or commercial work. If not KiCAD, then others will rise. Look at Blender 3D as the new Pixar, Scribus for Desktop Publishing, as a response to PageMaker and InDesign, Inkscape for CorelDraw (some are making PCBs with it and CNC Router work), LibreCAD for excellent 2D technical design (also intended for CAM work in the future), GIMP for Photoshop, LinuxCNC for Mach 3 CNC, Synfig Studio fro Anime Studio, MyPaint against Corel Canvas (yes, you can do amazing job with it), the amazing team Lazarus + FreePascal against Embarcadero Delphi and ... the brilliant RepRap project against Industry or DaveCAD against Altium (kind of a final joke, but not really as it is more popular). Altium does not exist in my world. Period.

these alternatives are good but they are not 100% substitute. just to prove it and curious about the claim... i downloaded gimp latest version and made quick evaluation... some of the 2007 writing are still valid... http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-gimp-replace-photoshop/ namely 16,32bit editing and CMYK/Lab/, color profile management implemented, but in a "loose" way that we have to manually dig usually in windows system directory profile files, this is common with all "jack of all OSes" ossw, they cannot find it automatically since they need to deal with 3 OSes. whats not mentioned that are lacking... nondestructive editing, hdr, actions, snapshot in history, smart object, device central, custom print dialog box with color managed printing, gamut warning thats what i can spot etc etc. and another problem with "jack of all OSes" that i tried, they failed to optimize rendering to full OS's capability, either Win32 Native API, OpenGL or DirectX. lucky Windows opted to include OpenGL in the OS if not, none and none, not even Kicad, RepetierHost and any other 3D/2D ossw rendering engine simple or complex will ever work charmingly in Windows. so dont get to cocky, if you keep the "My pockets are empty" mentality, your pocket will forever empty, i cant imagine how many time will be wasted on this (waiting something to complete render 1000x, clicking everything to reach a system file and the like) 24/7 in professional work, heck even the speed demon photoshop is not up to my expectation in some area... i bought Photoshop, and that is what paid all my electronics/hobby expenses to date through "parttime" job, not "fulltime"... if kicad can ever 100% substitute Altium, every single industries in the world are fool for sticking in there deek with altium. fwiw ymmv.

[Vasi]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace. That is a progress. Forget about Windows - that OS is not the only one in the planet. Look at Linux, let's say start from an old version, Slackware 3.0 and compare it with an actual version. The progress is tremenduos for both the OS and the applications available. Now, a guy with money only for a PC can start working and gain his existence, including in DTP zone. There is value added every year and can't be denied by anyone. And the process continues.

And, if you don't know yet, on this Planet it is a stupid financial crisis in development. This means that if in the past where people with empty pockets (especially students, and one of them designed Linux), now are even more. This is well known by companies who are forced to rethink their strategy (including Altium). Everyone thinks for a way to save money. If you can't work with what is available for free and you can afford an expensive tool, good for you. But you know what? Don't get cocky because you don't know what tomorrow have in the bag for you (this is true for all of us).

[zapta]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

[c4757p]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

[nctnico]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

[Tac Eht Xilef]

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported. And, AFAIK, the binaries don't work on the latest version of OSX.

Kicad release process is ridicules.
...
I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Or at least a properly documented build process - not a warning against using a broken build script followed by a link to a different page that that suggests using that same broken build script, or leaving you adrift to trawl through their bug/branch tracking system & mailing lists to piece together the right combination of branches & patches to get it to build properly...

(This & this look promising, but I haven't tested them since I'm stilll slowly piecing together a suitable scratch/build system on my new MBP...)

[zapta]

Today, KiCAD is offering features not seen in Eagle and DipTrace.

Kicad release process is ridicules.

"One of the most widely distributed releases is known as 'old stable' – which unfortunately is out of date. As an example, the version in Debian stable is from 2012. By using 'old stable' you miss out on all the progress which has been made–and there has been quite a bit."

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Installing+KiCad

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Just ask Google and you'll find them.

This is what Google gives me, a release from 2013 from a site called mdx4.org.

http://www.mdx4.org/index.php?/archives/43-Kicad-for-OSX-2013-02-14-BZR-3954.html

Did you have better luck?

[zapta]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

Overhauls? Aren't they running ahead with new features?

[c4757p]

Vast sections of crusty old crap are being reimplemented as part of adding those.

[Mechatrommer]

I suspect that'll come after all the big overhauls are done.

Overhauls? Aren't they running ahead with new features?

yes they are running new features "or" "extended" features, and yes it usually very likely they are doing overhauls when trying to blend extended features with the old existing. cern guy is brilliant parting pns (push and shove) code away, but it needs working together with existing one thats where the overhaul is needed, though that i have not checked, cern guy must already understand most part of kicad code very well. its understandable one programmer wil not produce "stable" version during "development". frequent install updates will lead to much of wasting time because between each stable compilations you'll need housekeeping job such as code verification, zipping and preparing documentations and placing them in various places and then make sure all of them are in tally. maybe the later part can be automated but "code/bug verification" is something big to do the right way.

[tszaboo]

everyone knows that CM will the best free package, this is pretty much guaranteed. Altium's features are great to begin with...

Not if they are Windows only. Being available on all three major platforms is very important for the makers community. A windows only open source design is very limited.

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also, it is still not worth the effort to support two operating systems, to target 1% of the users. And personally, I think they should not touch the base code (and create bugs), just for the sake to make it work on linux. It would be the worst business decision to do.

[ehughes]

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also,  you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

I do use linux for certain tasks but am pragmatic enough to see that it is not a good fit for everything.

There is a reason Altium is an 80m+ company.   They need to figure out how to support their developers.   The maker community that uses Linux only is very small has very little money to give.      Kicad, etc.  is a much better choice for those users as they seem to have lots of time to burn.

[zapta]

... you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

The CM's competitors do.

[Mechatrommer]

The CM's competitors do.

there is no such thing as CM didnt you understand me? if anything... CM is (trying) to be a competitor...

[DIPLover]

Altium on linux will probably not happen in this decade, probably in this century. For this exact reason, I dont see how CM would happen. If there isnt a tool on the OS what you are using, where you can upgrade from CM, there isnt a point to release CM there.

Also,  you don't release software for a system that:

1.)   Is used primarily by people who don't feel who you should have to pay for software
2.)   Can't support multiple monitors out of the box.   To this day,  i have yet to find a linux distro that supports my 3 monitor config without spending hours in config files.  Windows setup takes 5 minutes.
3.)   Is fundamentally unsupportable.   Linux Distro's are a dependency hell and every Linux user has a Frankenstein build.   It makes no financial sense to even try to support it.  Look at any forum for tools that support linux for dev tools..  I see endless questions about "I have distro X with libFoo 1.2,   the program won't work unless I put a paper clip in the USB port"

I do use linux for certain tasks but am pragmatic enough to see that it is not a good fit for everything.

There is a reason Altium is an 80m+ company.   They need to figure out how to support their developers.   The maker community that uses Linux only is very small has very little money to give.      Kicad, etc.  is a much better choice for those users as they seem to have lots of time to burn.

Serious EDA companies (Cadence, Mentor, Xilinx, Altera.....etc.) have supported Linux for years (sometimes decades) now... Seems it can be done and might be worth it...

The thing is you have to choose a stable distro, which usually means RHEL (or free CENTOS) and only support that.

People that WORK on their linux systems tend to not thinker with them as much.

Also, that linux has 1% (or whatever) marketshare amongst consumer droids is irrelevant. Adoption rates amongst technical and scientific users is much higher, though I wish I had solid statistics.

As to Linux users not paying for software... Cadence Allegro Pro PCB design is upward of 5K$ per seat... and most IC packages are well over 50K$. I never saw those running on Windows, though my sample is small.

[miguelvp]

Cadence Allegro is rapidly dropping support for all their unix platforms.

There was some press release of end of life for irix, solaris, whatever the IBMs power PC did run_ix, etc_ix

I'll try to look it up and update.

Edit:
http://www.cadence.com/support/computing/pages/default.aspx

[DIPLover]

Cadence Allegro is rapidly dropping support for all their unix platforms.

There was some press release of end of life for irix, solaris, whatever the IBMs power PC did run_ix, etc_ix

I'll try to look it up and update.

Edit:
http://www.cadence.com/support/computing/pages/default.aspx

Pruning long dead platforms is quite fine. IRIX has been dead since 2006... (And a zombie long before that)
If you look at the roadmap, you will see Red Hat 5,6,7 are fully supported, as well as SUSE 11 and 12. 5 supported linux distributions ain't bad at all. Also, they offer "contractual" support for latest AIX versions.

But all of this is mostly historical. Cadence and Mentor historically were run on Suns and other workstations, hence they're rooted in unix.  Protel/Altium is rooted in DOS hence the Windows-centric culture.

There's no problem in that (to each his own...) but it has nothing at all to do with "1% marketshare" and "linux kiddies don't wanna pay" bullshit.

[ludzinc]

Want some news re CM?  Let Altium know!

[miguelvp]

True, it's all x86 now but RedHat RHEL Linux and Novell SUSE SLES Linux are hardly linux or free and they cost more than their Windoze counterparts.

[DIPLover]

True, it's all x86 now but RedHat RHEL Linux and Novell SUSE SLES Linux are hardly linux or free and they cost more than their Windoze counterparts.

They are quite "free" in the free software sense, and CENTOS is "free" as in beer and 100% identical to RHEL except for logos.

But I guess if you're running Cadence, you don't mind paying for software updates anyway...

[miguelvp]

Again your are right about cost and companies that purchase Allegro surely don't mind paying those license fees.

But usually when people complain about no linux support they are referring to Ubuntu, Debian and alike. Specially if the software is free or with freemium offers.

And since the subject at hand is CircuitMaker, I bet the rants are not about not being able to run it in $800 a seat Linux versions.

[Bassman59]

I expect a stable version number and precompiled binaries and installers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

They are integrating the CERN stuff, namely the differential routing and matched trace-length stuff, after which they are going to push out a new stable build. This is coming "soon." They really want to do this.

There are a couple of guys working on the OS X binaries now.

A lot of the release issues include making the installation process easy for newbies across all three platforms.

[Bassman59]

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported.

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

[zapta]

The official OSX binaries are 2 years old, and the 'official' build script is broken and unsupported.

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

'latest' is not a 'release'.  We need a stable release number that is available for all three platforms with single package installs. Until then it's not a proper release. I waited 10 years until Eclipse caught up Intellij so I can wait until they Kicad will catch up with Eagle.

(this is a free product and they don't owe me a thing, I am just conveying my expectations as a potential user).

[Tac Eht Xilef]

Have you pulled the latest sources from the launchpad bazaar repository? Start here.

No; as I said, I'm still getting a play area for that sort of crap set up on the new machine.

In the kicad/Documentation/compiling/ directory are some helpful files. Read them, especially mac-osx.txt. Yes, grabbing and installing the prerequisites is a bit of a pain, but you do that once.

I pull the latest sources daily and compile them on a 10.10 machine and a 10.9 machine, and it actually works.

One of the OS X developers has set up a nightly build thing, which has .dmg for the programs and another .dmg for the libraries and ancillary stuff. He has asked the developers to test it and wring it out before it gets announced publicly. It has been working for me and a couple of the other guys who lurk the developer mailing list, so I expect it to be publicized very soon. Once that happens, I will post something here.

Yes, I believe I said something about needing a "properly documented build process" that works, not one that needs trawling through the source, bugtracker, & mailing list to discover...

[ehughes]

There's no problem in that (to each his own...) but it has nothing at all to do with "1% marketshare" and "linux kiddies don't wanna pay" bullshit.

AS a former user of both Cadence and Mentor tools, just talk to anyone inside their company.    Virtually all the licenses are for Windows now.     The  crowd who demands Linux aren't running around with fist full of bank notes ready to through it towards Mentor or Cadence.

In a different segment,  I know of a couple companies who offered tools for Linux (Freescale being one.) who offered their tools for Linux.  They eventually dumped it after a few releases as there was almost no uptake compared to the full user base.   The ones that did had no interest in the paid version.

As far as Xilinx,  the Linux versions for Vivado, ISE and Chipscope have a bit more uptake but I have found that the drivers for the hardware are awful and some features are disabled.     Once again,   most of actual sales goes to the Windows users.

Just look at the ancedotes on this forum.    Everyone balks at the idea of Altium charging while simultaneously wanting Linux.   Sorry,  no one with a financial brain would spend any effort porting for a group who believes all software should be free.   It only makes sense if you start with toolkits from day one that make porting and testing easier.

Even if you do that you end with a GUI that looks and runs like shit on all platforms.   Just look at Eagle, et. al.

A tool really on needs to work on one platform well.  If a user is unwilling to pay (Especially if the software cost is significant) a little bit of money to get the OS,  then they are a shitty customer with other political motives.    Engineering is not about religion or politics.   Be programmatic and use tools to get things done.     Case in point....  I play and record music.    I find that Logic works best for my workflow.   Instead of dicking around looking for Windows or Linux alternatives,  I simply get the platform that supports what I want.  I didn't have a Mac.   Guess what?   To support my hobby, I busted ass for awhile to get the cash and bought the tool I wanted.

If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.  That time could be better used adding features and fixing bugs, not doing regression testing on all the different platform variants.   Just make the tools work in one environment well. 


 

[zapta]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

[Tac Eht Xilef]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

[Mechatrommer]

A tool really on needs to work on one platform well ... The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.  That time could be better used adding features and fixing bugs, not doing regression testing on all the different platform variants.   Just make the tools work in one environment well. 

i agree with you, but otoh i also highly believe making one sw works well, looks well in all platforms is possible, but unlikely free if its to happen. its just that from trying few of the jack of all OSes sw, i guess most of the developers came from linux environment, probably sifu and very very good at it so they dont have much time learning windows/macOS environment and how the file system works, how "common" GUI should looks and feels like etc etc, probably they spent too much time on sw functionality and tuning it up for there environment, once satisfied, they just find the toolchain that compile for windows and voila! they you have it the windows install. and then they need food too in there real life working environment, because well... they cant rely on there developed and nice little OSSW to feed them. otoh mastering and becoming the jack of all OSes for a mortal (highly skilled programmer) is quite difficult i guess as it need resources, time and patient. just a guess fwiw.

[zapta]

... If the tool was written  for some strange linux flavor, I would just go that way.    The last thing I want is the developer spending time on porting to every platform in existence.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

"There is nothing wrong with pointing out that the argument A is invalid. "

From your link.

[ehughes]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

Poppy cock.   That is what someone who can't reason their way out of a bad position would say.  :-)

I hear the same nonsense on the Solidworks forums.    You have a couple people demanding a Linux version for little cost (or free!).    It is quite comical when there are a couple hundred thousand licenses being sold to paying customers on a platform that makes the company money.    It is simply dumb to think it would ever be worth the resource allocation to devote paid developers to serve a community that only wants your product for free.   If you want Linux and free use Kicad.

The reality in business is that you have to allocate resources in such a way to achieve your goals.   Unless you have an infinite bank account and supply of programmers, you have make choices that get you the 6-sigma of your customers happy.     This is why you see many Linux/open source efforts in the toilet.  It is simply not worth the trouble when the amount of money you can make is small in already small market.     The juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.   Especially when the juice coming out is sour.

If I am hungry and  need to catch fish,  I go to where the fish are.   I don't go to the spot with few fish because I feel that the scenery is better.  Not that there isn't anything wrong with sitting on on a nice lake while  I engage in fishing "theater" but...

All of the Latin verbage from a philosophy classroom is meaningless if you can't figure out how to fill your bucket of fish when you are hungry.

[zapta]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_logicam 

Poppy cock.   That is what someone who can't reason their way out of a bad position would say.  :-)

I hear the same nonsense on the Solidworks forums.    You have a couple people demanding a Linux version for little cost (or free!).    It is quite comical when there are a couple hundred thousand licenses being sold to paying customers on a platform that makes the company money.    It is simply dumb to think it would ever be worth the resource allocation to devote paid developers to serve a community that only wants your product for free.   If you want Linux and free use Kicad.

The reality in business is that you have to allocate resources in such a way to achieve your goals.   Unless you have an infinite bank account and supply of programmers, you have make choices that get you the 6-sigma of your customers happy.     This is why you see many Linux/open source efforts in the toilet.  It is simply not worth the trouble when the amount of money you can make is small in already small market.     The juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.   Especially when the juice coming out is sour.

If I am hungry and  need to catch fish,  I go to where the fish are.   I don't go to the spot with few fish because I feel that the scenery is better.  Not that there isn't anything wrong with sitting on on a nice lake while  I engage in fishing "theater" but...

All of the Latin verbage from a philosophy classroom is meaningless if you can't figure out how to fill your bucket of fish when you are hungry.

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

[miguelvp]

Let them finish one version first and see where it goes, I rather they concentrate in one OS than three and wait at least one year for CM to come out.

[Vasi]

The fact that Eagle works identical on all OSes says that it uses the right crossplatform framework. The KiCAD developer made the mistake to chose wxWdgets framework that it didn't worked well on Mac OS X. But I guess that the developer was accustomed some how more with the Windows programming paradigm and wxWidgets follows that very close. I have to admin that is the best choice of any fanatic Windows programmer who wants to do a crossplatform experiment.

Today, the best crossplatform framework that works excellent on all three main OSes, is named Qt and has native elements for all host OSes. I suspect Eagle uses that. It also works great on embedded and mobile systems. Unfortunately, regarding Circuit Maker, the only good choice in using the framework with Objective Pascal is to use Lazarus + Freepascal because I guess Delphi will never offer Linux support (I won't go into the reasons). So the Linux story ends here.  But this does not means that once developed in Delphi, Circuit Maker won't be compiled for both Windows and Mac OS X operating systems.

Embarcadero® Delphi® XE7 is the fastest way to develop highly connected applications for Windows, OS X, Android, iOS, Gadgets, and Wearables. Modernize existing Windows applications and create highly connected apps with mobile, gadgets, and wearables. Deliver high performance, compiled native applications that easily connect with enterprise data, cloud services, devices, sensors, and gadgets.

The whole cross platform thing is today beyond anything else in the past. It is a must for any developer and it works flawless. No one has the time and money to have three separate development teams making applications for Windows, Linux, Mac OS X. Today you have to work on a single package that has to work the same on any operating system (Once you used a cross platform framework, is the compilers job to compile the executable for any platform). Do it otherwise and you are screwed. Delphi does this with FMX components, Lazarus+Freepascal with Qt, Qt is also used with gcc C/C++ compiler, and soon Microsoft will join the party with Visual Studio (which can use already Qt) and the horrible .NET platform (this means that DEX will be cross platform in the future) . So please, don't laugh about the crossplatform thing as it has to be included in the CV of any programmer from now on.

[tszaboo]

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

Maybe they can offer a free copy of Windows for Dummies with CM.

[GK]

[zapta]

The fact of the matter is that the popular packages for Circuit Maker's target market support all three OSs.

I doubt that a makers' vendor such as sparkfun or adafruit will adopt a windows only package.  It's a diverse community, not a homogenous school of fish.

Maybe they can offer a free copy of Windows for Dummies with CM.

Or better off, a free copy of Diptrace, so people can stay with their OS of choice.

[Tac Eht Xilef]

"There is nothing wrong with pointing out that the argument A is invalid. "

From your link.

Next sentence: "However, claiming that the entirety of proposition P (which could otherwise be an objective scientific truth or is supported by better arguments) is false, just because it could be, or is being, supported by fallacious argument A, is the Fallacy fallacy."

Or, as it also says earlier:

This is where one needs to make a clear distinction between "sound", "valid" (including the distinction between scientific validity and logical validity) and "true", instead of taking all of them as synonymous.

Or better off, a free copy of Diptrace, so people can stay with their OS of choice.

The Linux & OSX versions on Diptrace are Wine-based, so you essentially get all the fun & problems of using a Windows program in a Windows (not an) emulator.

[zapta]

Next sentence: "However, claiming that the entirety of proposition P (which could otherwise be an objective scientific truth or is supported by better arguments) is false, just because it could be, or is being, supported by fallacious argument A, is the Fallacy fallacy."

I don't think I said that the appeal to the extreme is a proof that you are wrong. You are debating with yourself here.

The Linux & OSX versions on Diptrace are Wine-based, so you essentially get all the fun & problems of using a Windows program in a Windows (not an) emulator.

No, essentially I can use the program on my computer of choice with a single package install. The usage of Wine is just an app implementation detail.

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

[tszaboo]

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

So, by the Pareto principle, you just proved, that it is not worth it, to make a MAC and Linux release. Altium is strong and healthy, they make 20% of the effort to support 80% of their potential customers. Saleae supports everyone, five times the effort, they are on the edge of a bankruptcy. Thank you for proving our point.

[zapta]

BTW, in the last Amp Hour, the Saleae brother estimated that 25% of their Logic users use Linux or Mac OSX.

So, by the Pareto principle, you just proved, that it is not worth it, to make a MAC and Linux release. Altium is strong and healthy, they make 20% of the effort to support 80% of their potential customers. Saleae supports everyone, five times the effort, they are on the edge of a bankruptcy. Thank you for proving our point.

That's bizarre logic. Cadence supports Linux and is more profitable than Altium.

Most of the successful tools and projects in the makers space support all three platforms. Same goes for tools adopted by major makers houses such as Adafruit and Sparkfun. It's for a reason.

[ehughes]

Cadence supports Linux and is more profitable than Altium.

Cadence all sells high IC design tools,   functional simulation tools, etc. That can easily run 250k+.     They are not interested in the Maker community or supporting linux because it is a "swell" thing to do.    They have an established revenue stream from established high end businesses.      Those people don't choose linux because of religion,   they have a job to get done and use the right tool for the job.      Keep in mind that the majority of the business at Cadence is in Windows.  Unix is dying platform for what they do.   When they have customers who swing millions of dollars on software,  it makes sense to support unix in those cases.

Same goes for tools adopted by major makers houses such as Adafruit and Sparkfun. It's for a reason.

The *only* reason Sparkfun and adafruit adopted Eagle was because it was free and had an existing user base.  Period.     It had nothing to do with the technical merits of the software.    Eagle popular *before* it had a linux version in V4 and a Mac Version in V5.      The adoption was purely because it was free.   The ability to run on other operating systems was the developer's wet dream at the used QT.    It is not the majority of their business.

Now,  if a tool was written primarily for unix or mac,  I would make the same statement.   You don't port simply because it is a cool thing to do.   You have to have a real business case.   

I certainly understand there are paying linux users in the high end business community.   We are NOT talking about makers wanting to pay 250k for an IC design tool. IF you think *makers/hackers*  who only use linux (because it is free) is going to be a solid revenue stream,  you are simply dumb.   You would never invest (in the case of Altium) significant resources porting an application tied to the Windows platform (i.e. direct X) just to get some table scraps.    You would lose less money sending a copy of VMware and a windows license.

No one with their head screwed on straight chooses a tool because it runs on certain OS.      That is what happens when you let geeks make business decisions.

[zapta]

No one with their head screwed on straight chooses a tool because it runs on certain OS.      That is what happens when you let geeks make business decisions.

For makers, nothing is so special about CM that they will let it dictate what OS to use. It's just another program out of many they use. It doesn't deserve special efforts.

The fact of the matter is that most tools that are popular in the makers market run on all three OSs.

If Altium think that they can capture the makers market with a windows only program, good for them. It's their money.

[Vasi]

For makers, nothing is so special about CM that they will let it dictate what OS to use. It's just another program out of many they use. It doesn't deserve special efforts.

The fact of the matter is that most tools that are popular in the makers market run on all three OSs.

If Altium think that they can capture the makers market with a windows only program, good for them. It's their money.

Never used Altium. Don't even watched a presentation movie about it. But, if CM meets the requirements (free to use for non-commercial and saving to the HDD), then I would like to use it especially for his 3D capabilities. Strictly for presentation purposes; it helps you to illustrate your tech blog with nice looking boards (considering only this activity and it still can be beneficial to Altium, as my pages can drive more people to using Altium tool). Well, if Altium decided to compete on this niche, then it has to be content even with this kind of gaining. Right?

Don't forget that they want to smash Eagle. So let's see  what they are willing to do for it. Realize this? We don't have to beg for something. Altium is the one who need to come with a nice offer to be taken into consideration. Period.

[VEGETA]

Don't forget that they want to smash Eagle. So let's see  what they are willing to do for it. Realize this? We don't have to beg for something. Altium is the one who need to come with a nice offer to be taken into consideration. Period.

You sir talk good logic, really. However, if they want this, they should listen to the community. The community needs are very simple: a PCB tool that works for most of their needs, can design good stuff, maintained nicely, can go commercial with small amount of money, and works offline.

I guess all knows these stuff, which Dave mentioned most of them before they announce their tool. However, we didn't expect them to make 3 separate tools!!!

The best approach is to have ONE package that free with boundaries, then you buy licenses according to your needs until you reach the full Altium designer. Say Free + 3 paid licenses. They didn't do that, they just created 2 separate programs!

The essence is that the software is the same, you master the free one, you master (or do excellent) with the paid one... not just re-learn everything.


Well, looks like we will argue a lot about it, and in the end we will see the result. It may be the hardest thing to do, but waiting is all we can now xD

 

[Mechatrommer]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

[ehughes]

The best approach is to have ONE package that free with boundaries, then you buy licenses according to your needs until you reach the full Altium designer. Say Free + 3 paid licenses. They didn't do that, they just created 2 separate programs!

I would tend to agree but I also see the rationale behind the decision.    AD can be complicated for seasoned engineers.     When you first install and look at the program, it is not trivial to get started.   There are multiple options for library management, lifecycle management, etc.   Things that organizations have to worry about.   Companies pay good $$$$ for proper training.

I honestly could see many people giving up on it with the perception that it is too hard.   I don't think the decision to simplify the UI in the CM or CS versions was taken lightly.    User uptake is critical and you want things to look at simple as possible.

I have use AD for many years and it does have a learning curve.    I have seen many seasoned engineers need a good amount of patience to learn.   

CM and CS are an effort to simplify the UI for the case that most people would be using it to just make boards.         Keep in mind that they did not rewrite the tool from scratch.   99% of the code is the same.   The main shell UI is different but it instantiates the same functionality (i.e. The schematic editor, PCB editor) and hide what is not needed.

We will have to wait and see how things turn out inthe end but even if you don't like the CM model,  I would think a reasonable person woudl agree that more people in this space is good thing.   It forces the other tools to keep up.

If anything ,  it will force KiCAD,  Eagle and Dip Trace to get real 3d support.     It is more than showing a model in another window.     When you can cross probe a trace through a layer stack in real time,  you see the value of true 3d support very quickly!       While there is still more work to do in the AD interface,  I have used every other major vendors PCB 3d toolset.    Nothing else comes close.

[zapta]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

[Mechatrommer]

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

if only 2 option in the world, kicad and eagle. please advice which one has more features and more efficient, hence thats the "most", hence thats what i need.

[VEGETA]

The community needs are very simple

its not community needs, its your need. what i need is the most efficient. most sensible and the most featured "cheap or free" package out there.

'Most efficient and most featured'?  Anything else will not fit your needs?

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free", now for "cheap and free" you will never ever gonna get "most efficient and most featured" simply because companies like Altium who worked for +20 years or something on their product, they wanna gain money they deserve. It's not like anyone will produce such quality product for free... right?

My needs are not the standard of the world. However, I did read what most people need and it is not that much hard! CM must at least have these stuff... otherwise it will never ever gonna meet the primary goals they themselves announced! This is what we have been talking about.

believe me, so many people will literally hate the cloud-only thing. those Eagle guys will never ever leave their package (which is not better than CM as all expect) to use CM... and the rest (KiCAD, Diptrace.....etc) are the same...

Now, who will use it? why? is it gonna be a successful product? will it dominate the Hacker/Maker/Hobbyist marked that was the sole reason it was made?

thanks for all who responded. xD 

[Mechatrommer]

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free",

AD is not "cheap" so its not in the "set", in case you forget exercise in school, what i meant is the boolean logic {"most efficient" AND "most featured" AND {"cheap" OR "free"}} to make it easier try do it from behind, first find the set of "cheap or free" sw and work your way to the earlier condition. in practice its not so easy though the world is not black and white i suspect Eagle is (was?) the maker's de-facto standard because it fits the boolean logic above.

[Bassman59]

'latest' is not a 'release'.  We need a stable release number that is available for all three platforms with single package installs. Until then it's not a proper release. I waited 10 years until Eclipse caught up Intellij so I can wait until they Kicad will catch up with Eagle.

(this is a free product and they don't owe me a thing, I am just conveying my expectations as a potential user).

For what it's worth: nightly builds for OS X are available here: http://downloads.kicad-pcb.org/osx/

[zapta]

Thanks, I week give it a try.

[VEGETA]

"most efficient and most featured">> as far as I know, this is the full AD. he said "cheap or free",

AD is not "cheap" so its not in the "set", in case you forget exercise in school, what i meant is the boolean logic {"most efficient" AND "most featured" AND {"cheap" OR "free"}} to make it easier try do it from behind, first find the set of "cheap or free" sw and work your way to the earlier condition. in practice its not so easy though the world is not black and white i suspect Eagle is (was?) the maker's de-facto standard because it fits the boolean logic above.

the whole idea behind my post was to clear for you that there is no cheap package with all of your requirements. There will be limitations no matter what.

As far as I know, Eagle is the de-facto standard for makers today. It has pretty much all their needs, and KiCAD is there for those who likes it. CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

[Mechatrommer]

CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

ditto! if its "better", it will fit the "community" (or my) needs but sadly CM is a nonsense for now imho.

[VEGETA]

CM must be better than them to gain some serious market that worth the efforts by Altium.

ditto! if its "better", it will fit the "community" (or my) needs but sadly CM is a nonsense for now imho.

FINALLY you understood my post.

That is what I wanted to say... for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

I am not worried about other features as I am sure CM will be better than the others... After all, it is Altium right?

thanks for the great discussion. looking forward to CM xD

[miguelvp]

Same here I can't wait to test CM once it comes out so I can see if it will work or not for me.

[nixfu]

So, has Dave/EEVBLOG had any contact with his friends at Altium lately?  It might be time to actually confirm if CM is dead or not.  It sure seems like it.

[EEVblog]

So, has Dave/EEVBLOG had any contact with his friends at Altium lately?  It might be time to actually confirm if CM is dead or not.  It sure seems like it.

Haven't heard a thing.

[Mechatrommer]

for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

now thats not your opinion, its the "community" (or my) opinion. i think everybody agreed on this, added with Altium track record and company status is what makes this "CM for maker/hobbiest" whole thing nonsense, but well, we'll see.

[ehughes]

Someone asked about CM being dead on the Altium Forums.   (See Attached)

Here is some "public" information.   All that can be said is it is still in closed Beta and they are working through the feedback.

[janekm]

for me, I see that cloud-only is a permanent killer for CM. Maybe it is my opinion only, but that is what I really believe in.

now thats not your opinion, its the "community" (or my) opinion. i think everybody agreed on this, added with Altium track record and company status is what makes this "CM for maker/hobbiest" whole thing nonsense, but well, we'll see.

Well it's most certainly not my opinion! A cloud-only option is just fine for what I would like to use it for (open hardware projects). A very sensible trade-off for allowing that type of community use while protecting Altium's business interests in the more expensive options. I sure hope Altium haven't been too put off by the negative views on this forum...

[Bloch]

Alitum why are you not updating me ?

I did go and look at there site and ..... Oh well it not dead 
They are "To make the CircuitMaker beta process more transparent, we’re going to kick off a campaign leading up to the open beta."    Is that not that you did now almost a year ago ?

But Max Clemons has now promised that we all can download CircuitMaker May 16, 2015 at 10:00 AM (PDT)

[free_electron]

thier intent is to launch at a makerfaire

[Bloch]

>thier intent is to launch at a makerfaire

I realy dont understant that.

Would Dave launch eevblog on makerfaire ? How many at makerfaire do even use a pcb program  ? my gues is 0,1 %
 
 It is 2015 use the dam internet !

[miguelvp]

>thier intent is to launch at a makerfaire

I realy dont understant that.

Would Dave launch eevblog on makerfaire ? How many at makerfaire do even use a pcb program  ? my gues is 0,1 %
 
 It is 2015 use the dam internet !

It doesn't matter what year it is, there will be a lot of eyes at makerfaire so they get more exposure if their target is makers, and of course it is.

Why do game companies announce their titles at E3?
Why do gadgets get announced at CES?
What about cars?

The internet is not going to change what makes more marketing sense.

[Bloch]

LOL OK let me see. Here is just a short list of companies that doing it wrong then.


Apple
Samsung
Facebook
Tesla

Even on the theamphour that it fairs is just a pissing content 

So all us that will not use thousands of dollars on a trip to makerfaire 2015. How will they convince us to use there software.

And that product was showcased on makerfaire 2013 and 2014. Have i heard off because it was on makerfaire ?

[miguelvp]

I can't see Altium doing their own Altium world anytime soon specially for just one product that is intended for makers.

If you don't follow makerfaire events then maybe you are not the target audience, but the so called makers do follow what goes on in there from their own homes.

Anyways, it's their marketing decision, I see nothing wrong with announcing it on a platform where most makers will have their eyes set on what happens in there.

And why does it matter where they announce it anyways? or is this just a hope that if they don't do it there you'll get your hands on the software earlier? without a hard date it might slip because they might think it's not ready.

Also, no one said you have to be there to get the software, just that it's going to be released at that time.

[ehughes]

How many at makerfaire do even use a pcb program  ?

My guess is that if you have to ask that question you have absolutely no idea what MakerFaire is all about and CM's target demographic.


Some people do actually leave their computers to go outside and interact with others (gasp) of the same ilk to talk tech, show off projects and have some fun. 

[Bloch]

>target demographic

Is it now that i hear the chanting usa usa usa usa


If you have  a product. And my guess is that they do. They are just setting it up to failure. All i see is using a LOT of money


Do anyone one know that it will cost them at maker fair? Just wait then they want more money    "But it SO expensive to give all this to you for free  "

[miguelvp]

Don't you worry, they'll make money out of CircuitMaker.  Their cost at MakerFair is just a drop in the bucket.

[DerekG]

Don't you worry, they'll make money out of CircuitMaker.  Their cost at MakerFair is just a drop in the bucket.

I don't believe they will. Now that the deal with Farnell & Circuit Studio has been done, CircuitMaker will fade far into the distance.

Its full release is already 6 months late.

The only reason CircuitMaker was ever on the cards was to keep Altium's shareholders happy.

Now that Circuit Studio has arrived, Altium will focus their shareholders instead on this.

[miguelvp]

How is it 6 months late? I never have seen a release date until now.
And what make you think that Circuit Studio has anything to do with the outcome? CS was probably green lit before CM.

I guess people think that announcing a product means it's going to be released within 2 months, but they clearly stated they were going to close beta and no release date was set until now.

[DerekG]

And what make you think that Circuit Studio has anything to do with the outcome? CS was probably green lit before CM.

If you have been following the Circuit Studio thread you would have read that Farnell only approached Altium after they heard about the upcoming release of CircuitMaker.

If you have been following the EAGLE threads, you will know that Farnell have jumped into bed with Altium as they are pretty unhappy with the development team at EAGLE over these past several years. EAGLE's user-base is getting older as few younger engineers take up their software.

Circuit Studio will definitely make money for both Altium & Farnell.

CircuitMaker is pie in the sky stuff that might bring in a little shrapnel at best. Altium will quickly learn that the effort involved with CircuitMaker is (was) a waste of their development team's time.

[miguelvp]

And what make you think that Circuit Studio has anything to do with the outcome? CS was probably green lit before CM.

If you have been following the Circuit Studio thread you would have read that Farnell only approached Altium after they heard about the upcoming release of CircuitMaker.

What makes you think that's the case? it was announced after but that doesn't mean a thing.
Then again, maybe Altium programmers are so good they can just whip out a full software package in just a couple of months

Also what makes you think that Circuit Maker upgrades won't be sold via E14 and it was all part of the deal?
I see no downside having a freemium version of Circuit Studio (Circuit Maker) what will not only help them attract more customers into purchasing Circuit Studio but it will give them a big installation base to find problems with the core design of the product.

Maybe you have inside information that the rest are not privy to.

But, yeah, it's all conjecture from my point of view and maybe  a bit of conjecture from yours?

[DerekG]

What makes you think that's the case? it (Circuit Studio) was announced after but that doesn't mean a thing.

I am a lot closer to the action than you might think & I know exactly what discussions went on.

Then again, maybe Altium programmers are so good they can just whip out a full software package in just a couple of months

No, they were just directed to put most of their efforts quickly into Circuit Studio. Remember, Farnell wanted it, Farnell were very enthusiastic for it & the business model put to Altium made it a profitable deal for both parties.

Also what makes you think that Circuit Maker upgrades won't be sold via E14 and it was all part of the deal?

Because it wasn't.

I see no downside having a freemium version of Circuit Studio (Circuit Maker) what will not only help them attract more customers into purchasing Circuit Studio but it will give them a big installation base to find problems with the core design of the product.

I don't disagree with you here, but some at Altium are already pessimistic about the true ability of CircuitMaker to make money. Publically they are "all smiles" but the reason for this is because they promised the shareholders that this was the way forward to increase their user base & make money. After 7 months they can hardly go back to them & say "we got it wrong".

Maybe you have inside information that the rest are not privy to.

You have hit the nail on the head.

[LabSpokane]

Any idea if Farnell might change its licensing to a subscription based model?  That would help take some of the sting out of it for us small 'taters folks. 

[DerekG]

Any idea if Farnell might change its licensing to a subscription based model?

The current arrangement is that you purchase Circuit Studio for a little less than US$3000 which includes any updates & customer support for the first 12 months.

If you read back through the Circuit Studio thread, you can see there is mention of a 15% discount

After the first 12 months, you can elect to pay annually to continue your access to upgrades & customer support.

Have a good read through
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/
for more detailed information.

As far as a subscription-only model goes, yes it was discussed, but the preference was to work with a business model that Altium knew already worked.

A subscription-only model would have had to cost ~US$1000-$1200/year for the profit lines on the graphing model to cross. This was considered less appealing than the business model currently offered.

[ehughes]

Given that CM and CS are essentially the same program, it is kind of a moot point about the development costs.   They are the exact same shell instantiating the same objects.   there are just minor differences in a few odds and ends.   How else did you think they made  CS so quickly?   It certainly isn't a different code base than CM.