Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?

[Karel]

Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?

At least there's Kicad and Eagle V7.
Regarding Eagle, you can't buy a perpetual license for the full version anymore but the free/limited version
is still available and perpetual (V7 that is), they can't "pull the plug".

This thread is about whether a program should be free to use forever,
once it has been purchased,
regardless of if the original publisher is still in business or not.

I believe a program should be free to use forever, once it has been purchased,
regardless of if the original publisher is still in business or not.
Unfortunately, more and more software vendors have a different opinion.

[Feynman]

Altium and Pulsonix have perpetual licensing options. EAGLE was perpetual until version 7.7.

[AndersJ]

Altium and Pulsonix have perpetual licensing options. EAGLE was perpetual until version 7.7.

In my case, Mentor Graphics and PADS,
”perpetual” means it has to be renewed every 10 years.
If they are out of business at the time of renewal, then I loose my program.
Same thing if my dongle breaks, if they cannot replace it, I’m at loss again.

In my book, that is NOT perpetual.
I want to use my program forever, without vendor dependencies.

How do Altium and Pulsonix define ”perpetual licensing”?

[Feynman]

How do Altium and Pulsonix define ”perpetual licensing”?

I don't know about Altium, but with Pulsonix you have your license file that can be used forever similar to how EAGLE used to be.

[PlainName]

How do Altium and Pulsonix define ”perpetual licensing”?

For Altium, if you have the offline installation media and your license file, you're good to go.

[AndersJ]

How do Altium and Pulsonix define ”perpetual licensing”?

For Altium, if you have the offline installation media and your license file, you're good to go.

Are you saying I can install it on any machine, at any time?
And move the program to another machine, when the first one fails,
or otherwise needs to be replaced, for whatever reason?
Without consulting Altium for rehosting?

[langwadt]

How do Altium and Pulsonix define ”perpetual licensing”?

For Altium, if you have the offline installation media and your license file, you're good to go.

Are you saying I can install it on any machine, at any time?
And move the program to another machine, when the first one fails,
or otherwise needs to be replaced, for whatever reason?
Without consulting Altium for rehosting?

Yes. The only copyright protection implemented are homing and same license collision on LAN.

Install wherever you want, just don't fire two copies of the same license at the same time.

so with a single license file the whole world can run altium as long as they are not on the same lan?

[Wilksey]

With Altium the subscription expires, so whatever version was released at the time of the subscription expiring is the latest version you are legally allowed to use.
The license is "infinite", you are legally allowed to take your license and install it on any machine with the appropriate software version as long as you are not then running it on another machine, so a single user license, our license has 10 seats covered by 1 key / license file, so technically we can use multiple licenses if we want to as long as we do not exceed 10.  The only exception is having Altium cloud licenses, I don't know what happens if you stop subscribing, this is Altium's cloud based licensing server, nothing to do with A365 by the way.
Altium is quite flexible, you can have cloud based as already mentioned, file based, or you can run your own licensing server locally, it works well for us.

If the machines are on different networks then they cannot talk to each other and find out how many licenses are already in use, but if they are on the same LAN then they can, I don't know if this has changed since V18 with all of the "call home" stuff, if the machines are on a different network but both have internet access it might be able to tell.

[Warhawk]

I want to archive projects together with the tools used to create them, such as the PCB CAD program.
In the future I can unpack it all, do whatever is needed, and then pack it again.

The tool license, if there is one,
must be eternal and not locked to a dongle or PC hardware.
Once purchased, I want:
* No hardware or vendor dependencies or other restrictions
* It to be mine, forever, and free to use as I see fit
* Freeze the tool version used to avoid upgrading and incompatibility issues

Today, when I open a old project,
I sometimes find that the current ”modern” version of the tool has changed
and my project is no longer compatible for whatever reason.
Fixing issues is risky,
and if the project has a third party certification,
changing ”unnecessary” details complicates the recertification process.


Is there such a ”buy once, use forever” PCB-CAD program on the market?

Sorry everyone for not reading the complete thread before posting. If you are a hobbyist, or a business without making very complex designs and tracking the supply chain, etc., KiCad is a good choice. The current version is already quite mature. It's opensource. I use it often and even abandoned Altium that I have access to. However, you should not expect professional features that Altium or Orcad offer. Alternatively, you can consider Circuit Studio from Altium. It is relatively cheap and offers a standalone license. However, it seems that Altium does not care about Circuit studio much.

Be careful with one thing - having a standalone license does not guarantee that you can install the SW ten years later. A typical example is Autodesk with their online activation. Servers are already down. The last AutoCAD with "just the key" is ACAD2000, I think.

I perfectly understand what you want and why you want it. You may want to do some edits in the future and the software may not be available. This is especially a problem with proprietary formats. Also, I've never seen PCBs or schematics imported properly in other software. It's definitely not working out of the box.

With my previous job we archived a complete virtual machine with every product release. Storage is cheap these days and you want to make sure that you compile a firmware update with the very same compiler like 10 years ago.

I guess kicad is your best try.

[Doctorandus_P]

Yet another vote for KiCad.
Quite a lot of people are using KiCad, also for professional work.
KiCad is also growing quite fast in popularity, which results in more donations and faster development.
Import of Eagle projects has also been included for some time, In the "Nightly V5.99, soon to become V6) import of CADSTAR is also (experimentally) included and others.

Olimex is one of the companies that uses KiCad for the (linux capable) boards they make and sell.

For some idea of projects made with KiCad have a look at:
https://kicad.org/made-with-kicad/

The "component database" thing is apparently important for some, but irrelevant for others. I guess it depends on how many different boards you make and how many revisions of those boards. The Idea is known by the KiCad developers and it may be implemented in a few years time, but currently the focus is on things that are relevant for a bigger part of the KiCad users. There still are a few parts in KiCad that feel "clunky" to new users.

[langwadt]

Yet another vote for KiCad.
Quite a lot of people are using KiCad, also for professional work.
KiCad is also growing quite fast in popularity, which results in more donations and faster development.
Import of Eagle projects has also been included for some time, In the "Nightly V5.99, soon to become V6) import of CADSTAR is also (experimentally) included and others.

Olimex is one of the companies that uses KiCad for the (linux capable) boards they make and sell.

For some idea of projects made with KiCad have a look at:
https://kicad.org/made-with-kicad/

The "component database" thing is apparently important for some, but irrelevant for others. I guess it depends on how many different boards you make and how many revisions of those boards. The Idea is known by the KiCad developers and it may be implemented in a few years time, but currently the focus is on things that are relevant for a bigger part of the KiCad users. There still are a few parts in KiCad that feel "clunky" to new users.

has there ever been a CAD package that doesn't feel "clunky" until you get used to it?

[ElectronRob]

Sorry, but from my point of view any ecad software which can have a licence installed onto the machine its self is perpetual.

Orcad might be a bad example because of the dongle, if they go bust and you lose the dongle then sure I see the problem. But Altium can have the licence locally installed. Therefore you can use that licence to open projects forever.

I sound like I am marketing Altium here (I am not) but I can use AD17 to open AD20 projects with a few warnings about new features.... thats great, I can also use AD20 to open ANY project from a previous release all the way down to Protel. You can't get much more perpetual than that.

Solidworks is very rigid on this, you cannot ever open a solidworks file made by a newer version - thats one of the ways they force users to pay for updates, but ecad tools seem to be a bit more flexible in that regard.

The biggest issue for us historically has been when we have let updates lapse, we employ someone new so buy a new licence in the mean time the software company has merged so all the new versions aren't directly compatible with the old. Lesson here is to just suck it up and pay the sub. 

[nctnico]

Sorry, but from my point of view any ecad software which can have a licence installed onto the machine its self is perpetual.

Orcad might be a bad example because of the dongle, if they go bust and you lose the dongle then sure I see the problem. But Altium can have the licence locally installed. Therefore you can use that licence to open projects forever.

That is not entirely correct. First of all Orcad defaults to node-locked licensing (to a piece of hardware); the dongle is an option. Secondly; with a node locked license you have a probem when you want to upgrade the PC and the software suppler no longer exists. In the end both methods rely on a piece of hardware. This is also the reason why I don't buy software if there is no hacked version for it. In the end that is the only way to make sure you can always make use of the software you bought.

[olkipukki]

Orcad might be a bad example because of the dongle, if they go bust and you lose the dongle then sure I see the problem. But Altium can have the licence locally installed. Therefore you can use that licence to open projects forever.

What would happen if Altium go bust? 

Do you have the offline installer?
Did you try to install it on another machine and activate there without Altium online?

[Mattylad]

Tape and pads will last for years, as long as the glue remains on the bottom.
Works without the need for a computer OS too

[Cerebus]

Bit tricky getting Gerbers out to send to the fab, and I've a suspicion that they wouldn't know what to do with a stack of lith film negatives/positives and if they did work it out I suspect you'd be in for an interestingly large bill.

[S. Petrukhin]

Looks like they haven't mentioned EasyEDA yet.
https://easyeda.com/editor

Very similar to KiCad, it contains a database of footprints for real components.

[nigelwright7557]

I use PCBCAD720, its just a few pounds on ebay. No dongle or tie in's. Just buy it and go.
Must have done about 300 pcb's with it now.
Wont import anything but has very good error checking which is vital for reliable pcb manufacture.

DISCLAIMER ADDED BY ADMIN: This user is the author of the software.

[Cerebus]

I use PCBCAD720, its just a few pounds on ebay. No dongle or tie in's. Just buy it and go.
Must have done about 300 pcb's with it now.
Wont import anything but has very good error checking which is vital for reliable pcb manufacture.

You might want to add a disclaimer here. What you post now is asking to get banned.

Well, let's hope that his programming is better than his English punctuation. Amazing what a mess a misplaced apostrophe, or a missing apostrophe, can make of your code. 

Nigel old chap, not cool recommending your own products without clearly noting your affiliation with them.

[Simon]

I'm starting to tire of this. Yes there is a perpetually licenced product, KiCad! If your making a commercial product then compete with the real commercial boys or just go home!

[Chris56000]

Hi!

In the early 2000s I worked on PCBs for an Aircraft to Ground telephone communication system for a former employer, using a British design package called Electronic Design Studio.

It wasn't cheap (over £1000) for all options, and came with a "key disk", supplied on floppy to licence it, and it checked the floppy each time you started it, and I made more calls to their technical support over problems from this "key disk" than any other issue!

Eventually after several years worth of complaints I got them to change it to a Serial Number activated system, but even that was notoriously unreliable as well!

One morning I logged onto the website to be greeted with one line of text:–

"The website is under new development and we hope to be back shortly"

A month or two after that, I asked our friendly RS Rep if he could tell me any more, and he said "the Manufacturers have gone bust – we've had to stop selling it and destroy our remaining stock of this software because we cannot support it!!"

During the time the publisher was in business, I asked if there was any means of backing up the licensing key but they refused point blank to help with this!

Whatever licence method EDS used, it certainly seemed to be effective as no "cracked" version ever came to light!

When the employer closed the Electronics Department ten years ago, they gave me the "Easy PC" licence they no longer needed, and the girl at Number One was happy for me to continue to use it to buy a V24 Upgrade just before Christmas – that's how this software should be licenced – fairly priced and no compulsory subscription nonsense, insistence on your design files becoming "their" property (Are you listening Altium?), or reliance on "dongles", "key disks" or "activation".

So yes, there is a well–priced "perpetual licenced" EDA product – try "Easy PC" or "Design Spark Pro" from RS – (Design Spark Pro is about 15% cheaper @ £375 plus VAT))  and there are no silly pin limits in the full version (Easy PC does offer much cheaper 500/1000/2000 pin count versions if you're only needing to make very small hobby designs).

The autorouter in Design Spark Free is pants, but Easy PC had absolutely no problem with my friend's board using it's free "Trace Router" – DSPCB free couldn't do it full stop!

Chris Williams

[Simon]

From what I gather there are no auto routers out there that are much good unless you are going in for serious stuff that costs a lot and helps particular situations. I'll never touch a distributors software again, got burnt with circuit studio thanks. Farnell this software is shit, well sir it's made by Altium. Altium this software is shit, well sir while we write the code (rip it out of another product and leave you so sort out the entrails) we have nothing to do with supporting it as it's Farnell's product as the sole distributor.

Hopefully KiCad keep it up as they are really going places now.

[Chris56000]

Hi!

The reason KiCAD does not appeal to me is that horrible typeface with it's "primary school" open "4" and the general shapes of the character glyphs in general, plus the drab and dark colours for the PCB layers that are applied by default!

I had a British Post Office Standards Binder a long time ago that said "Primary school style figures are out of place on any technical drawing", and to this end KiCAD is the only one where you are forced to use that horrible typeface!

I got, thanks to help from the UK Vintage Radio Forum Mods, Digitised versions of the British Standards and Post Office recommended sets of lettering styles, and this clinched "Easy–PC" for me – it can use them in the PCB Editor and they worked absolutely perfect when I got JLC PCB to make a design using these Fonts on the silkscreen!

Chris Williams

[nfmax]

I got, thanks to help from the UK Vintage Radio Forum Mods, Digitised versions of the British Standards and Post Office recommended sets of lettering styles, and this clinched "Easy–PC" for me – it can use them in the PCB Editor and they worked absolutely perfect when I got JLC PCB to make a design using these Fonts on the silkscreen!

Are those fonts in the form of bitmaps or TrueType fonts, or 'stroke' format? I gather KiCad uses stroke fonts for PCB layout, so they can be converted easily to Gerber. If you have your own stroke font it should be possible to replace the default - apparently there are format conversion tools in the source code.

What is not possible, and unlikely to arrive for quite a while if ever, is the ability to take an arbitrary TrueType font and use that on a PCB.

[PlainName]

From my previous life as a draughtsman, I am pretty sure my standard lettering guides had open 4s. They may look 'primary school' but they are like that for a reason.

There a many things to get worked up about with Kicad but the ident font doesn't strike me as one of them!