Author Topic: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?  (Read 20817 times)

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Offline AndersJTopic starter

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I want to archive projects together with the tools used to create them, such as the PCB CAD program.
In the future I can unpack it all, do whatever is needed, and then pack it again.

The tool license, if there is one,
must be eternal and not locked to a dongle or PC hardware.
Once purchased, I want:
* No hardware or vendor dependencies or other restrictions
* It to be mine, forever, and free to use as I see fit
* Freeze the tool version used to avoid upgrading and incompatibility issues

Today, when I open a old project,
I sometimes find that the current ”modern” version of the tool has changed
and my project is no longer compatible for whatever reason.
Fixing issues is risky,
and if the project has a third party certification,
changing ”unnecessary” details complicates the recertification process.


Is there such a ”buy once, use forever” PCB-CAD program on the market?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 10:44:42 pm by AndersJ »
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2020, 02:45:24 pm »
I want to archive projects together with the tools used to create them, such as the PCB CAD program.
In the future I can unpack it all, do whatever is needed, and then pack it again.

The tool license, if there is one,
must be eternal and not locked to a dongle or PC hardware.
Once purchased, I want:
* No hardware or vendor dependencies or other restrictions
* It to be mine, forever, and free to use as I see fit
* Freeze the tool version used to avoid upgrading and incompatibility issues

Today, when I open a old project,
I sometimes find that the current ”modern” version of the tool has changed
and my project is no longer compatible for whatever reason.
Fixing issues is risky,
and if the project has a third party certification,
changing ”unnecessary” details complicates the recertification process.


Is there such a ”buy once, use forever” PCB-CAD program on the market?

sure, kicad, price $0

 
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Offline AndersJTopic starter

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2020, 05:12:55 pm »
What are the major similarities and differences
between KiCad and the older programs such as OrCad, PADS, Altium etc?

Can KiCad import their projects, including, schematics, component libraries, copper pours etc?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 10:45:16 pm by AndersJ »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2020, 08:21:46 pm »
I want to archive projects together with the tools used to create them, such as the PCB CAD program.
In the future I can unpack it all, do whatever is needed, and then pack it again.

The tool license, if there is one,
must be eternal and not locked to a dongle or PC hardware.

Is there such a ”buy once, use forever” PCB-CAD program on the market?
Simple: buy one for which is also a hacked version available. I have been doing that for ages after getting burned a couple of times. Either way later versions will have problems reading older files and older versions may not install on newer OSses so you'll need to freeze the OS as well (IOW: install & use in a virtual machine).

Regarding KiCad: this isn't ready for professional use yet. The component management system (or lack thereof) simply isn't up to the task yet. A good PCB cad package has a database back-end for the components (like the CIS option for Orcad and Altium has an integrated component library system). Without a good component management system the logistics of having a PCB produced and library management in general quickly become extremely time consuming.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 08:24:55 pm by nctnico »
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Offline AndersJTopic starter

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2020, 11:25:41 pm »
I use PADS, with a dongle.
It works well, as long as PADS is still on the market, and Mentor supports it

What worries me, in the long run,
is that when/if PADS is no longer supported for whatever reason,
and my dongle fails or the license needs to be renewed,
then I’m in trouble.

I own the program, but I cannot use it,
and can no longer modify my pcb’s.
Moving dozens of pcb’s to a new environment,
possibly with the same problem is not something I want to do.

Therefore I want a eternal license without PC hardware dependancies.
Or a license free version.

Unfortunately my local Mentor sales people are unwilling to fix this.
All it takes is a license file without restrictions.
Or a register change that removes the need for a license file.
 
I also own a Volvo car.
I can use it as much as I want,
without asking Volvo for permission every year.

Why is a pcb CAD program different?
"It should work"
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 12:10:45 am »
I also own a Volvo car.
I can use it as much as I want,
without asking Volvo for permission every year.

Why is a pcb CAD program different?

Because software companies are like young people. Young people believe they will live forever, the prospect of their own mortality has not yet caught up with them despite the fact that they know people die, so they do not make wills. Software companies similarly believe they will go on forever, despite seeing evidence of company demise left, right and centre, they too refuse to make provision for a future that does not include them. Neither want to contemplate their likely ultimate fates, so refuse to engage in a discussion along the lines "Yes, but what will I do once you're gone forever if I outlive you?".

On a completely different note: Diptrace has a perpetual license, or did when I last looked at it. Don't like it personally, but it's usable (like all CAD software: "for some value of usable"). I mention it purely as a data point of software that could potentially outlive its producers while still being fully functional.
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 08:47:15 am »
I also own a Volvo car.
I can use it as much as I want,
without asking Volvo for permission every year.

You'll still need spares, though. You might be able to buy generic substitutes for items like oil filters and windscreen wipers, but you'd be lost without manufacturer support if you need something like a body panel, ECU or engine part. You might not subscribe to your car "as a service", but you do still need the manufacturer to be around.

I dislike the idea of renting software as much as anyone, but I don't think "buy once, use on any computer, anywhere, forever" is a realistic expectation.

You can buy a perpetual licence for OrCAD, which is what I use, and last time I checked it was being offered at a bargain price for the most basic ("PCB Designer") level.

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2020, 08:53:39 am »
Because software companies are like young people. Young people believe they will live forever, blabla
No the reason is that they want a steady income not a singular peak and then decay.
The whole licensing stuff is created to generate a steady fixed source of income where the SW developers are being paid from.

I don't like it myself but the difference between hardware and software is that you have many many more releases and intermediate updates, support etc. etc. and you keep the people on the payroll.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2020, 09:30:23 am »
Because software companies are like young people. Young people believe they will live forever, blabla
No the reason is that they want a steady income not a singular peak and then decay.
The whole licensing stuff is created to generate a steady fixed source of income where the SW developers are being paid from.

I don't like it myself but the difference between hardware and software is that you have many many more releases and intermediate updates, support etc. etc. and you keep the people on the payroll.

I was, quite obviously, referring to the refusal to even consider talking about the issue with one of their customers. It's the same thing, they are acting within their own interests, and those alone, and don't give a flying one for their customers should they end up 'dead'. Some companies that have reached a certain level of maturity, make escrow arrangements for their source code and other materials necessary to maintain their software should they go out of business, so that their customers aren't left high and dry. Wise customers insist on this sort of arrangement before they put themselves at the mercy of the continued existence of their software supplier. Where individual customers don't have the clout to make these kind of instances, then user groups have often taken up the cudgel to make sure that suitable arrangements are put into place.
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Offline Wilksey

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 10:55:31 am »
Altium will allow you to do this, just save the offline installer with the project and the license file, it's only the subscription that expires with Altium, not the licensing of the tool itself.
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2020, 11:10:18 am »
+1 altium.
You can even go the circuit studio path if you need a more economical solution.
You can request altium for an offline installer for the same and freeze it there.
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2020, 11:38:22 am »
I was, quite obviously, referring to the refusal to even consider talking about the issue with one of their customers. It's the same thing, they are acting within their own interests, and those alone, and don't give a flying one for their customers should they end up 'dead'.
That is no different then HW manufacturers putting components as EOL.
A large company can do a last endbuy but some day the stock is empty and they have to pay sometimes millions for a redesign incl. retesting, recertification of their boards and products etc.
And those are companies that live on.

Also you have to understand that many commercial software depends on third party libraries and compilers.
Those are usually not OS and are not allowed to be shared. Stripping code will render it useless.

All in all it is very difficult for a software company to leave behind some legacy code that will remain usefull for customers. And if a SW company is in heavy weather the last thing on their mind is to start a new project to remove the licensing and start giving away their product.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 11:40:53 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2020, 12:02:41 pm »
I was, quite obviously, referring to the refusal to even consider talking about the issue with one of their customers. It's the same thing, they are acting within their own interests, and those alone, and don't give a flying one for their customers should they end up 'dead'.
That is no different then HW manufacturers putting components as EOL.
A large company can do a last endbuy but some day the stock is empty and they have to pay sometimes millions for a redesign incl. retesting, recertification of their boards and products etc.
And those are companies that live on.

Also you have to understand that many commercial software depends on third party libraries and compilers.
Those are usually not OS and are not allowed to be shared. Stripping code will render it useless.

All in all it is very difficult for a software company to leave behind some legacy code that will remain usefull for customers. And if a SW company is in heavy weather the last thing on their mind is to start a new project to remove the licensing and start giving away their product.

Which is why availability of the source code matters
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2020, 01:53:04 pm »
I was, quite obviously, referring to the refusal to even consider talking about the issue with one of their customers. It's the same thing, they are acting within their own interests, and those alone, and don't give a flying one for their customers should they end up 'dead'.
That is no different then HW manufacturers putting components as EOL.
A large company can do a last endbuy but some day the stock is empty and they have to pay sometimes millions for a redesign incl. retesting, recertification of their boards and products etc.
And those are companies that live on.

Also you have to understand that many commercial software depends on third party libraries and compilers.
Those are usually not OS and are not allowed to be shared. Stripping code will render it useless.

All in all it is very difficult for a software company to leave behind some legacy code that will remain usefull for customers. And if a SW company is in heavy weather the last thing on their mind is to start a new project to remove the licensing and start giving away their product.

Which is why availability of the source code matters

Which is why supporting Kicad is a good idea.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2020, 04:22:39 pm »
Which is why availability of the source code matters
Actually it doesn't matter. By the time you would want to compile the source you find out the current compilers can not compile the old code right away because the compilers have moved on with tiny but important changes in how the source code is interpreted. Just recently I had to downgrade the C compiler on a Linux system to compile an older C cross-compiler. Having the source code is highly overrated (and that is an understatement).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline ebclr

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2020, 08:49:24 am »
Will your OS be perpetual ?

I don't think so
 

Offline AndersJTopic starter

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 09:17:18 am »
The PC and the Operating System can be archived.
But,
when the license has expired,
or the dongle has broken, then I'm on my own if the CAD company is gone.
"It should work"
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Offline nfmax

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 12:16:11 pm »
Which is why availability of the source code matters
Actually it doesn't matter. By the time you would want to compile the source you find out the current compilers can not compile the old code right away because the compilers have moved on with tiny but important changes in how the source code is interpreted. Just recently I had to downgrade the C compiler on a Linux system to compile an older C cross-compiler. Having the source code is highly overrated (and that is an understatement).

Even if you can't compile the source code, you can still read it, so you can understand the design file format (which is the vital thing)
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2020, 12:20:23 pm »
Will your OS be perpetual ?

I don't think so

Why do you think so? There are OS'es like Linux that have a perpetual license. You can backup the installation iso and
install it as often as you want and whenever you want. Doesn't mean there will allways be updates available but at least you
will be able to run your (old) software.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2020, 03:23:25 pm »
Quote
You can backup the installation iso and
install it as often as you want and whenever you want

Until the hardware changes sufficiently to require new drivers that won't load on the old OS. Just had that with MythTV - got an archived image of the disk and even the installation media, but the hardware available now can't be used by the old OS and the new OS won't run the old software. There is, of course, an update to MythTV that won't read the old version database...

Solution was Ebay, but that's not going to last forever either.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2020, 03:57:21 pm »
Quote
You can backup the installation iso and
install it as often as you want and whenever you want

Until the hardware changes sufficiently to require new drivers that won't load on the old OS.

Can you give an example of a normal (IBM-compatibel, x86) pc where I can not install, for example, OpenSuse Linux 11.2 which is 10 years old?

By the way, I can still install and activate using the license key, Eagle V6.xx (9 years old) and Eagle V7.xx on a brand new pc with the latest and shiniest Linux version available without an internet connection.


 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2020, 04:23:11 pm »
Quote
Can you give an example of a normal (IBM-compatibel, x86) pc where I can not install, for example, OpenSuse Linux 11.2 which is 10 years old?

No, because I don't use OpenSuse. I assume that my example also doesn't use OpenSuse, so whether or not that works on anything at all is mute - my stuff doesn't work, and that's surely what counts. Can you guarantee that OpenSuse will continue to work on anything your preset to it? Even as the likes of systemd does its best to emulate the worst of Microsoft?

Quote
By the way, I can still install and activate using

Well, bully for you. If it floats your boat you're set up, right? I'm pretty sure it won't play back the WWII mega-documentary series that's in my MythTV store, though.

Seriously, things tend to be just fine right up until they're not.

 

Offline Karel

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2020, 04:31:09 pm »
No, because I don't use OpenSuse. I assume that my example also doesn't use OpenSuse, so whether or not that works on anything at all is mute - my stuff doesn't work, and that's surely what counts.

No, it does not count. What counts is the possibility to install an operating system and run an (old) EDA software,
because that's what this thread is about.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2020, 04:32:26 pm »
Quote
You can backup the installation iso and
install it as often as you want and whenever you want

Until the hardware changes sufficiently to require new drivers that won't load on the old OS. Just had that with MythTV - got an archived image of the disk and even the installation media, but the hardware available now can't be used by the old OS and the new OS won't run the old software. There is, of course, an update to MythTV that won't read the old version database...

Solution was Ebay, but that's not going to last forever either.

Simple, run in a VM under VMWare, VirtualBox, Xen, KVM or whatever, telling it to limit the features of the virtual machine to the degree of archaicness required. If you want to go back to emulating pre-pentium machines you might have to use a more awkward software emulation with Qemu, but for anything this century you ought to be able to run up a hardware based VM with no problems.
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Offline AndersJTopic starter

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Re: Is there a PCB-CAD package on the market - with eternal licensing?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2020, 06:02:33 pm »
What counts is the possibility to install an operating system and run an (old) EDA software,
because that's what this thread is about.

Actually, this thread is not about operating systems and old software.

This thread is about whether a program should be free to use forever,
once it has been purchased,
regardless of if the original publisher is still in business or not.

If the company disappears for whatever reason,
and is no longer there to renew the license or to replace a broken dongle then
the program can no longer be used.

Consequently products designed with the program can then no longer be supported.

So,
once purchased,
it must be possible to use the program without future dependancies of the publisher.
In most cases this is unfortunately not the case.

When shit hits the fan,
every single product (pcb's in this case) must be migrated to another CAD system,
possibly with the same type of shitty licensing.

That, is what this thread is (should be) about.
"It should work"
R.N.Naidoo
 
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