JLCPCB having an "interesting" attitude to reading text on layers

[peter-h]

For about 30 years I have been submitting gerbers with Mechanical Layer 1 being the PCB outline, and with this written on the layer



Nobody ever had a problem with it.

I just used JLCPCB for the first time to get some prototypes made. They arrived (after quite some time; the job initially got "stuck" somewhere) and they didn't fit into the plastic moulded box we have.

I thought oh damn I made a mistake. Then I checked and they made them 0.025" too big all around. Obviously they used the middle of the outline track (which is 0.050" thick).

Initially the guy said

Your order Y5 was audit by the system automatically. 

We can not read the words in the Gerber file. And in all the factory if the outline is thick,  they will make it according to the middle line. 

Since this is your first order, we will try to find a solution for you, so do you need to reproduce it again?

But pls note that make sure the outlie is thin enough to almost 0mm, otherwise we will make it accould to the middle  line. 

Sorry for the trouble!    . 
 
but later said

I contacted with the factory and they refused to remake it.  Since as the PCB industry rules, they will make it in the middle of the line. 

So I will go back to ITEAD who I have used many times and who never created any problems. Presumably they (along with every other PCB company, including many in China I have used; most Chinese ones go bust after a few years) actually read what is on the layer!

There are just two issues with ITEAD: they cost several times more, and your email address gets onto loads of PCB manufacturer mailing lists (presumably their employees leave frequently, as is normal in China, and take their customer database to their next employer).

[I wanted a rude username]

Like you said, the price is low. At that price, you can't expect a skilled engineer is going to look through your Gerber files.

Their instructions for ordering specifically address this:

The English descriptions and other statements in your zip file, such as some PDF files, DXF files, excel, etc.,  will be ignored and the PCB will be done according to the Gerber file provided only. So please make sure that the correct parameters are chosen and all those needed are converted into your Gerber file when you place your order. If any important, please kindly add it to the remark filed when you place your order.

(emphasis added)

They also mention that if you leave such a remark, your order will take longer, because an English-speaking engineer will need to read it.

[OwO]

What's the reason to deviate from industry standard in this case? Why not just make the outline really thin as suggested, then you won't have to worry which edge is used?

[peter-h]

I didn't know that not reading English notes on a layer (actually, not reading any notes on a layer) was industry standard. I am sure it isn't.

The more strange thing is that on the earlier job (the one which got "stuck" in their system) I got contacted by a person there who was processing the gerbers, and she knew exactly what it was, what the outline was, etc.

When the job was restarted, after some weeks, it was evidently picked up by somebody who cannot read.

Sure, if anybody wants to use JLCPCB they need to use a 0.001" track on the Mechanical Layer. However, which layer is going to be standard for the PCB outline? Ever since PCB CAD started, over 30 years ago, it was always the 1st Mech layer.

[OwO]

I'm pretty sure humans reading text embedded in normally machine parsed files is not industry standard. Even more so expecting your language of choice to be understood by everyone in the industry. What's wrong with just denoting the board outline by the center of the line like everybody else does? Or actually reading specifications before ordering that clearly state such things must be in specified in the remarks field on the order page?

[voltsandjolts]

The advantage of using the centre of the board outline to define the board edge is that it's expected.
You then don't have to write a note about using the inside edge and someone else doesn't have to read it.
Life is easier when you go with the flow.

[asmi]

I always assumed that the board is cut at the middle of the outline... Will check some of my boards when I get home just out of curiosity.

[peter-h]

Hmmm ... some human interaction with the plots is often required with PCBs other than trivial ones.

And if I sell a product which I advertise on an English speaking website (this one) and I have my own website in English, then saying I reserve the right to not read English job instructions doesn't wash.

Jobs often have instructions especially when it comes to things like routing breakout tabs.

Certainly all proper production outfits do read the text. I've been buying production from China for about 20 years and never had one that did not / could not read. I can see a cheap prototyping service like JLCPCB might choose not to but it is dumb business for the reasons given above. I've seen all kinds of junk behaviour in China, with small print saying customer tooling will be destroyed 12 months after last order getting the prize (when they phoned why we stopped buying, I explained that you cannot treat western customers in such a manner, but they didn't get it at all).

I think the "outline = middle of the track" assumption is one from fairly recent years. I've been doing PCBs since c. 1975 so have a fairly good overview.

Probably the reason for the tradition was that you automatically get the inevitable routing radius depicted  (if the outline is not a simple rectangle). If you use e.g. a 0.001" track then you have to draw arcs in all the corners. It's no big deal but most people will probably not bother and they the PCB company doesn't know how tightly he wants it routed.

[ataradov]

When discussing "industry standards", you need to make some assumptions. For a typical board I make, ordering prototypes in the US would cost me $50-100. Ordering prototypes from China will cost me $5. For this price difference I have very different expectations.  For $5 I expect to adapt my design to the manufacturer's requirement. For $50 I expect manufacturer to accommodate reasonable requests.

In the future I would not be surprised if humans won't even look at your boards. So you will have to follow the rules set by the machines.

I see no reason to blame JLC PCB in this case. If you don't like the results - do not use them next time.

[james_s]

I've always assumed that the edge cut would be down the center of the PCB outline, with that line treated as essentially zero-thickness, it never even occurred to me that it might be possible to specify one side or the other of that line and I'm not sure what reason one could possibly have for adding that potential ambiguity. I'm actually kind of surprised someone would expect human oversight with a company that specializes in producing absurdly low cost PCBs for hobbyists, the process is as automated as possible, it has to be, and most of the people doing the processing are not engineers, they are by necessity low wage employees and probably are not going to speak English. I've personally been very satisfied with their service, it's extremely cheap so I don't expect any frills or assistance with my design, I simply send them gerbers tailored to the requirements they list and my boards turn out exactly as I expect.

[peter-h]

Let me ask a question. Not meant to be personal, or suggesting anything.

How long have you guys been doing PCB design?

If 5-10 years then I can believe procedures have changed within that time.

[oPossum]

About 30 years. I always use zero width lines for board outline and slots. JLCPCB allows you to attach notes during the ordering process. They do read that.

[Yansi]

About 12 years. I have always used zero width outline.  Specifying outline like you did is certainly nonstandard, you should probably blame yourself in this case.

[wraper]

Let me ask a question. Not meant to be personal, or suggesting anything.

How long have you guys been doing PCB design?

If 5-10 years then I can believe procedures have changed within that time.

Don't you suspect that in the past fabs just charged you more for dealing with your nonsense manually? Or orders were expensive enough they just fixed it for free.

[james_s]

I've been doing it for about 10 years, ever since it became cost effective to have boards made in China. Always used a near zero width edge cut.

[ataradov]

I was ordering boards since OSHPark became known and popular, probably close to 5 years. It never even occurred to me that the with of the board outline would be significant. I just automatically assumed that the board will be defined by the center line.

[Mr. Scram]

What we see here is an expensive process with lots of manual steps becoming a commodity with the associated automation and streamline. This means that less usual configurations caught by humans before now are simply produced. There will companies who are more than happy to charge you extra for the additional effort of dealing with human readable instructions stuck in layers or you can update your design process to match the production process of your manufacturer. The process is known so by correctly controlling the input you have control over the output.

[thm_w]

Don't you suspect that in the past fabs just charged you more for dealing with your nonsense manually? Or orders were expensive enough they just fixed it for free.

This is why I love JLC (and other newer online PCB companies) for basic designs, they make or try to make exactly what you put in the gerbers.
In the past I'd pay $300 for NRE fees, the PCB engineer calls you up and asks "did you mean to put this trace going to nowhere?", "Did you want to carbon plate this area? It looks like a button".

If I screw the design up its on me, I will always accept that.

JLC doesn't specifically say where they will cut the board, but they do say they will do what the PCB tool shows, which in this case for all modern PCB tools I know of would be true (route in middle). I think it will even show up in their gerber preview too (although its not flawless).

[asmi]

It never even occurred to me that the with of the board outline would be significant. I just automatically assumed that the board will be defined by the center line.

Same here. Moreover, in Orcad/Allegro default behavior of outline is using zero-width lines (as they are shown in the editor), which you can set to be whatever default width when you generate gerbers. And this software is probably older than me

[peter-h]

I think the biggest lesson for me is that this firm doesn't read any text on a layer.

I've never seen that before.

Sure one pays tooling etc for production boards (usually).

JLC do examine the boards, actually. It isn't a totally automated process. I did the last one with 0.004 tracks and 0.004 clearances (it's a tight board) and they trimmed some pads to increase this. So somebody must be looking at it. They just can't read any English.

[ataradov]

That trimming is automated. CAM software just brings everything to meet their requirements.

AllPcb instead sends you the screenshots of the CAM with problem places and asks what you want to do.

So there are humans involved when CAM says there is a problem. Otherwise it can be totally automated.

[BravoV]

I think the biggest lesson for me is that this firm doesn't read any text on a layer.

I've never seen that before.

Sure one pays tooling etc for production boards (usually).

JLC do examine the boards, actually. It isn't a totally automated process. I did the last one with 0.004 tracks and 0.004 clearances (it's a tight board) and they trimmed some pads to increase this. So somebody must be looking at it. They just can't read any English.

What cheap & reasonable ? Consider learning Chinese.

[thinkfat]

I think the biggest lesson for me is that this firm doesn't read any text on a layer.

I've never seen that before.

Sure one pays tooling etc for production boards (usually).

JLC do examine the boards, actually. It isn't a totally automated process. I did the last one with 0.004 tracks and 0.004 clearances (it's a tight board) and they trimmed some pads to increase this. So somebody must be looking at it. They just can't read any English.

Yes, they do examine the boards. But it's tough to find a Chinese who's really good at English and able to converse with customers AND have engineering skills at the same time. These are expensive to hire, which goes against their business model for quick and cheap prototypes.

Additionally, your requirement to use the inner edge of the board outline means the audit will have to take details of the production process into account, especially the router bit diameter. This creates an unnecessary dependency between the ordering process and the  production. Result: more complaints and rejects. Again, goes against their bottom line.

This whole prototype business is hardly sustainable for them, it only works if they can automate the process as much as possible and use humans only if it cannot be avoided. If you want to use their services, you stick to their requirements meticulously. If you cannot do that for whatever reason, by all means, go elsewhere.

[wraper]

I think the biggest lesson for me is that this firm doesn't read any text on a layer.

No, the biggest lesson for you should be that if you are doing something for 30 years, does not mean you are doing it right.

[nctnico]

What's the reason to deviate from industry standard in this case? Why not just make the outline really thin as suggested, then you won't have to worry which edge is used?

I agree. Every board house I have used so far uses the middle line as the cut out except if it is one thick line which marks a slit in the board; then they'll use the outer edges. This may seem contradicting but from the PCB designer's point of view it is very easy.

You have to expect the person sitting behind the CAD station can't read / speak English. Even Eurocircuits seems to have people in India or so doing the file preparation.

And usually people do look at the layout to see if it meets production standards. If necessary changes are made automatically to suit the production process.